Speaking of rotational falls...

[Ghazzu]

this was posted on wreck eq. JCDill, the photographer, gave me the ok to crosspost here.

Woodside, CA, USA - May 24, 2008: Dawn White & Vapor Trail had a
dramatic rotational fall into the water at fence 14a (Log Drop into the MacNaughten Water Hazard) at the Horsepark in Woodside, CA

You can see my photos here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcdill/sets/72157605238922645/
(If you work for a horse newspaper/magazine/website and want to use
these photos, please contact me for licensing.)

Based on both what I saw and what my photos show, I think this
particular accident was caused by not enough engine. The horse stopped
on the first presentation, and when brought again he tried to stop again
and she tried to stuff him over. He seemed to be out of gas, unable to
get up of the ground enough, and one front leg didn't clear the log.
That leg, stuck behind the log, triggered the rotational fall. The
photos tell the story.

Both horse and rider were OK - they both got up without assistance and
walked off the course. I heard that Dawn refused medical attention.
New rules (enacted on Friday!) now require that all riders that fall are
seen by the EMTs. She stopped at the ambulance as she walked off the
course, and convinced them that she was OK.

[Reds-n-Greys]

WOW...scary.

I'm glad to read they are both OK, but I can't believe he was not a very sore boy.

[Janet]

Except that ("New rules (enacted on Friday!) now require that all riders that fall are seen by the EMTs.") ISN'T what the rules (new or old) say.

At least since 2006, the rules have said that
a. In the event of an accident in which a competitor is apparently injured or concussed, they must be examined by designated medical personnel
and this part has not changed.

NOT "every fall". Only "accident in which a competitor is apparently injured or concussed".

The new bit is to determine if they may take
part in another test, ride another horse

What HAS changed is that, since first fall is now elimination, even if the EMT says you are OK, you can't get back on and finish the course.

And, if the EMT says you are NOT OK, you can't go and ride a second horse.

[maxxtrot]

all i can say, is she and her horse are very,very lucky!

[Gunnar]

I was there to witness this. It was his 3rd stop I recall! I wish I had not seen it but I feel they were very lucky to have scathed by! I saw them walk right by and he looked a little dirty but none the worse for wear. Bet he will think twice before attempting a down bank like that again!:sadsmile: Lucky horse and luckier girl I say! :sadsmile:

[c_expresso]

Wow scary... not a real rotational fall though, the horse isn't somersaulting through the air, he is sideways in the air. Probably why he was able to land on his shoulder/side more than the top of his head and neck, and was OK.

[RAyers]

Wow scary... not a real rotational fall though, the horse isn't somersaulting through the air, he is sideways in the air. Probably why he was able to land on his shoulder/side more than the top of his head and neck, and was OK.

I am not sure where your definition of rotational comes from but that is a rotational fall by the laws of physics and otherwise. There was a single pivot point aobut which the horse roated over the fence.

I will add that this is an example of rider making a bad decision (e.g. trying to push over a fence when the horse is done), similar to what killed Ken Matchett at Trojan 7 years ago.

Reed

[TexasAggieEventer]

Looking at this pair's competition record it made me think of Danny Warrington's quote at the beginnning of this thread...

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=147034&referrerid=0

[subk]

Anybody else notice all the hardware?

It never occurred to me that you could put that noseband with that noseband. Ironic isn't it, that with all the brakes in application that the horse seems to have a problem going forward...

[AppJumpr08]

Scary Scary Scary.

I'm so glad both of them are ok!!!


When I was looking at those pictures I had flashbacks to a lesson I had years ago.. in which I got (rightly) SCREAMED at for letting a horse slither down a drop like that one.. I don't think I'll ever accept a slidy drop ever again - they've gotta JUMP!

[CBudFrggy]

I am amazed at how relaxed her horse looks afterward, ears forward, eyes calm.

[Ajierene]

This brings to mind the other proposed rule - that she has to drop down a level and is suspended for six months. This is still in the voting process, as far as I know, but do you think this is an appropriate response to rotational falls?

[tx3dayeventer]

Have you ever cracked your neck due to a fall? (I did, during a backhandspring back flip during a cheerleading competition, please don't judge me b/c I was a cheerleader :winkgrin: :D). My wrist gave out when I went back into my backhandspring and I landed square on my head and felt a pop in my neck. I was fine (had xrays done) but felt a goofy sense of euphoria and calmness. It was like all was right with the world and I was so calm, so relaxed, and so happy, it was weird. I wonder if the horse sensed the same feeling after falling all funky on his neck??? Hmmmm...... to bad they can't talk.

[RAyers]

This brings to mind the other proposed rule - that she has to drop down a level and is suspended for six months. This is still in the voting process, as far as I know, but do you think this is an appropriate response to rotational falls?

Good question. This is a rider who has done CIC***W but appears to have recent difficulties at A with a TE, and E this year. they have had a good run at OI and are 3rd in the Master Amateur Leader Board.

[Jazzy Lady]

hardware??? The horse is in a snaffle. Sure he has on a lever noseband with a figure 8, but it's not like she has a crazy contraption in his mouth... well, on the cheek piece anyway.

Glad their both okay.

[RugBug]

I am not sure where your definition of rotational comes from but that is a rotational fall by the laws of physics and otherwise. There was a single pivot point aobut which the horse roated over the fence.


Funny 'caused people tried to tell me Tigger Too's fall wasn't 'rotational' because he got his legs out in front of him. He still rotated over a single pivot point...the only reason for the twist is because the pivot point isn't dead center across the horse's chest. Seems some want to apply a very narrow definition to the term rotational fall.

Glad both horse and rider are okay.

[justhanginon]

Yikes, glad everyone was okay. I have a question. In the pictures where the horse is sort of flipping about half way down the bank, where is the rider ? Was she thrown forward so she is out of the frame of the picture ? The only other option is that she is behind (or under) the horse. If that was the case I would be amazed that she could walk away.

[CoolMeadows]

They're both very lucky to be walking away from such an ugly fall. I hope the dent on his left knee is an old scar and nothing new or serious. Maybe the horse opens his mouth and is strong thus the figure eight plus kineton. I've never seen them used together - even with a soft bit those two combined plus a running martingale would give you some hardcore brakes. He must ride like a freight train.

I'm also curious as to why so many said Tiggers' fall wasn't rotational. It looked like his hind end was pivoting sideways over the fence.

[pwynnnorman]

Good question. This is a rider who has done CIC***W but appears to have recent difficulties at A with a TE, and E this year. they have had a good run at OI and are 3rd in the Master Amateur Leader Board.

The problem I see with relying on riders' records are "enabler horses." I finally got around to re-watching on DVD some of the Rolex afternoon rides and I must say, watching on my bigger TV screen really helped me see the huge differences in riding that others have pointed out.

Waylon Roberts was an absolute treat to watch. His hands never seemed to move, his legs looked like they were glued in place. When his buns hit the saddle, the contact was gradual and then rock solid. No rotating shoulders, no grabbing hands, no tapping butt in the tack--one tiny instance of pumping the upper body, but nothing like rides that came right before and after him. Bonnie Mosser and Kim Severson had similar positions: quiet, consistent, effective. But I was just engrossed by Waylon's hands and legs more than anything else.

Meanwhile, though, there were some really, really rough rides from horses which had been extremely succesful through the season--several saved (for a while at least) only by the generousity and sheer talent of the horses. One horse was so buried in front of a big oxer that, by all rights, it should have been a rotational fall. It was amazing how he dug himself out--but he'd been ridden backwards from very nearly the start of the course--and yet it was not the pair's first time around the course. That poor horse got no help whatsoever from its rider and he finally just quit.

In the back of my mind, I do wonder if it is just Rolex nerves that cause some to suddenly become passengers instead of riders. But on the other hand, maybe the event world is suffering from too many average riders on exceptional horses? There needs to be a way to separate the horse's success from the riders. I can't see how that can be done, but when you sit down and compare rides--heck, even my father with alzhiemers could recognize the loose, busy rides from the tight, quiet ones.

[mjrtango93]

Yikes, glad everyone was okay. I have a question. In the pictures where the horse is sort of flipping about half way down the bank, where is the rider ? Was she thrown forward so she is out of the frame of the picture ? The only other option is that she is behind (or under) the horse. If that was the case I would be amazed that she could walk away.

She was under him for a couple seconds, thing is that the water landing does create quite a cushion. I had my horse flip at an intermediate table in water (there was a row of brush below the top of the table and he thought it was the top, so we had a little swim) I was directly underneath all 1200# of him when he landed. I came up with a bruise on my shoulder (and I'm a whitey that bruises if you look at me to long) and a little road rash on my elbow from the rock in the bottom of the water jump. Other then that and being cold was completely fine, not even stiff the next day.

[RAyers]

hardware??? The horse is in a snaffle. Sure he has on a lever noseband with a figure 8, but it's not like she has a crazy contraption in his mouth... well, on the cheek piece anyway.

Glad their both okay.

A kineton draws across the nose and down on the pole. It is a pretty harsh noseband, especially when the jaw is limited in movement.

Reed

[RAyers]

Funny 'caused people tried to tell me Tigger Too's fall wasn't 'rotational' because he got his legs out in front of him. He still rotated over a single pivot point...the only reason for the twist is because the pivot point isn't dead center across the horse's chest. Seems some want to apply a very narrow definition to the term rotational fall.

Glad both horse and rider are okay.

Tigger Too's fall was a rotational fall by the definition of physics. Many times to accomodate the layperson, the wrong words are used though. That tends to minimize the reality.

Reed

[Jazzy Lady]

A kineton draws across the nose and down on the pole. It is a pretty harsh noseband, especially when the jaw is limited in movement.

Reed

nm... closer inspection reveals a kineton. I thought it was a lever.

[RAyers]

You made my point. ;)

The truth is that how does one judge ability? How does one even get the chance to develop their abilities? We all, at one point or another, sucked.

The problem I see with relying on riders' records are "enabler horses." I finally got around to re-watching on DVD some of the Rolex afternoon rides and I must say, watching on my bigger TV screen really helped me see the huge differences in riding that others have pointed out.

Waylon Roberts was an absolute treat to watch. His hands never seemed to move, his legs looked like they were glued in place. When his buns hit the saddle, the contact was gradual and then rock solid. No rotating shoulders, no grabbing hands, no tapping butt in the tack--one tiny instance of pumping the upper body, but nothing like rides that came right before and after him. Bonnie Mosser and Kim Severson had similar positions: quiet, consistent, effective. But I was just engrossed by Waylon's hands and legs more than anything else.

Meanwhile, though, there were some really, really rough rides from horses which had been extremely succesful through the season--several saved (for a while at least) only by the generousity and sheer talent of the horses. One horse was so buried in front of a big oxer that, by all rights, it should have been a rotational fall. It was amazing how he dug himself out--but he'd been ridden backwards from very nearly the start of the course--and yet it was not the pair's first time around the course. That poor horse got no help whatsoever from its rider and he finally just quit.

In the back of my mind, I do wonder if it is just Rolex nerves that cause some to suddenly become passengers instead of riders. But on the other hand, maybe the event world is suffering from too many average riders on exceptional horses? There needs to be a way to separate the horse's success from the riders. I can't see how that can be done, but when you sit down and compare rides--heck, even my father with alzhiemers could recognize the loose, busy rides from the tight, quiet ones.

[Ajierene]

I agree with pwynnnorman and Rayers. I am always skeptical of 'great riders' especially the 'phenomenal up and comers' until I see their ride, and especially get comments from people who are more knowledgeable.

First - if I think you are riding bad, you are riding bad. Second - other people may be able to better judge a mediocre rider with a great horse.

Often stunning up and comers are really mediocre riders on great horses. These people usually disappear quickly, but I have seen some people that have been convinced someone is great and they give them their phenomenal horse to ride and the person goes through a decent career riding great horses but is never good.

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;3243964]
Waylon Roberts was an absolute treat to watch. His hands never seemed to move, his legs looked like they were glued in place. When his buns hit the saddle, the contact was gradual and then rock solid. No rotating shoulders, no grabbing hands, no tapping butt in the tack--one tiny instance of pumping the upper body... But I was just engrossed by Waylon's hands and legs more than anything else.
QUOTE]


Dear oh Dear...are we a Harry Potter "fan"???!!!!:lol::lol: Cold shower sweety;):lol:

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[quote=pwynnnorman;3243964]
Waylon Roberts was an absolute treat to watch. His hands never seemed to move, his legs looked like they were glued in place. When his buns hit the saddle, the contact was gradual and then rock solid. No rotating shoulders, no grabbing hands, no tapping butt in the tack--one tiny instance of pumping the upper body... But I was just engrossed by Waylon's hands and legs more than anything else.
QUOTE]


Dear oh Dear...are we a Harry Potter "fan"???!!!!:lol::lol: Cold shower sweety;):lol:

Get your mind out of the gutter snoopy!;)....He's too young for me anyway (you can't even take him to a bar!!)....but he is a damn nice rider. I think he got a lot of fans watching his round at Rolex.

[snoopy]

[quote=snoopy;3244296]

Get your mind out of the gutter snoopy!;)....He's too young for me anyway (you can't even take him to a bar!!)


Not in america anyway:winkgrin:

[Jazzy Lady]

[quote=snoopy;3244296]

Get your mind out of the gutter snoopy!;)....He's too young for me anyway (you can't even take him to a bar!!)....but he is a damn nice rider. I think he got a lot of fans watching his round at Rolex.

Come to Canada and you can! lol.

[Shrapnel]

1.) Horse and Rider very lucky!

2.) This is EXACTLY why riders like this should be suspended from that level for a certain amount of time.

[subk]

hardware??? The horse is in a snaffle. Sure he has on a lever noseband with a figure 8, but it's not like she has a crazy contraption in his mouth... well, on the cheek piece anyway.
Sorry, in my book a Kineton noseband is considered a pretty serious "contraption." Thems some serious brakes.

Saying he's just in a snaffle is like saying an elevator bit is a simple snaffle, because you know, in his mouth it's just a jointed piece...(winkie face here)

Funny 'caused people tried to tell me Tigger Too's fall wasn't 'rotational' because he got his legs out in front of him. He still rotated over a single pivot point...the only reason for the twist is because the pivot point isn't dead center across the horse's chest. Seems some want to apply a very narrow definition to the term rotational fall.
TT's body and legs cleared the fence but his front feet did not support his weight as they landed on the ground at the back side of the fence. When his front legs collapsed his upper body rolled over his chest and neck which were already in contact with the ground, i.e. the rotation actually happens after the horse has hit the ground and is more like a roll. I think when most people think of a rotational fall they aren't thinking that the single pivot point is the ground. I've witnessed a rotational and I've witnessed a fall eerily similar to TT's (also caused by aortic aneurysm) and they seem different to me.

[Jazzy Lady]

Sorry subk. I hadn't realized it was a kineton. I thought it was a lever as I stated above.

[subk]

Sorry subk. I hadn't realized it was a kineton. I thought it was a lever as I stated above.
Yeah, I didn't see your new post until after I responded...

[PhoenixFarm]

As the press officer for Woodside Horse Trials I'd just like to make a few comments:

1) Horse and rider were both fine, and walked away under their own power. They were both up and around and looking fine the next day as well. As you can imagine it's not a moment she's particularly thrilled about, captured for posterity and shown all over the internet, so I would gently remind folks as we discuss the incident that there is a human being at the other end of the photos who is doing plenty of soul searching on her own just now.

2) While we do appreciate the instructive nature of these photos, especially in light of the current issues being discussed in the sport, perhaps next year the photographer would care to actually apply for a press credential and be a fully accredited member of the press covering the event, rather than simply announcing loudly to everyone that she was an accredited photographer, and then attempting to hock her wares to the highest bidder back in the barns. Accredited media are always welcome, paprazzi not so much. :winkgrin:

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.:D

[ravenclaw]

thing is that the water landing does create quite a cushion. I had my horse flip at an intermediate table in water (there was a row of brush below the top of the table and he thought it was the top, so we had a little swim) I was directly underneath all 1200# of him when he landed. I came up with a bruise on my shoulder (and I'm a whitey that bruises if you look at me to long) and a little road rash on my elbow from the rock in the bottom of the water jump. Other then that and being cold was completely fine, not even stiff the next day.
When I looked at the pictures, I thought the water might provide some extra cushion or "protection" for both horse and rider.

Just out of curiosity, have any of the recent fatalities happened in a water jump?

I'm so glad that horse and rider are okay. :yes:

[RiverBendPol]

I think these pictures are very educational and I would like to ask photographers to do as this one did and keep the shutters moving when there is an accident. I am quite sure it takes an enormouse amount of self discipline to keep clicking when something of this magnitude is going on but please try to do so, for the education of the rest of us. I'd also suggest the subject of the pictures be given the opportunity to decline the internet publication of said photos. However, if a picture series such as this one can prevent one fall, then I should think the embarrassment (?) of publication would be minimized.
Thanks.

[Outfox]

It was very obvious from the ground that the horse was done after two stops.:(

The girl made a bad decision to re-attempt the third time.

Personally, this is exactly the kind of riding that we need to do away with. This rider should be suspended or penalized for making the bad judgement to re-attempt a third jumping effort. But we are several steps away from this mechanism.

[Janet]

Just out of curiosity, have any of the recent fatalities happened in a water jump? Not "recent", but at least one horse drowned in the water jump at the Mexico Olympics.

[Janet]

1.) This is EXACTLY why riders like this should be suspended from that level for a certain amount of time. Exactly what good will that do?

[Gry2Yng]

Not "recent", but at least one horse drowned in the water jump at the Mexico Olympics.

Am I recalling this correctly? Wasn't that "water jump" more like a white water swim? Nothing like what someone would be thinking of as a water jump in today's terms.

[highlandgreen]

I agree with previous posters that after a serious fall such as this a horse should be required to re qualify to upgrade. The horse should have to demonstrate that it will go forward to a fence in a willing manner before it tackles a larger course again.

As for Waylon Roberts, I have always been impressed with the fact that he has spent several years competing in the equitation classes at our highest rated jumper shows in Canada. His parents have encouraged or forced, I don't care which, him to learn to ride properly. The stadium riding at some of the events I attend is sometimes painful to watch(mine included!!). He has been doing his homework and it shows!!

At the same time Darren C. is also an excellent rider and even he made a mistake. You can never ride too well!!

[Ajierene]

I agree and I think that is what the rule is for - kind of a wake up call for the rider to be sure they are riding as correctly as possible and not pushing their horse to hard and also to be sure this hasn't shaken up the horse to much. Horses can lose confidence to!

I think the rule is a good idea.

[Ajierene]

Looked up the Mexico Olympics, apparently it was flooded due to weather:

Page was one of the few riders to have a flawless cross-country round. Shortly after Page finished that event, torrential rains significantly effected the course by flooding the water jump, creating course related faults, and contributing to two equine fatalities due to drowning.

from:
http://www.centenarycollege.edu/cms/en/athletics/equestrian/seminars/
(about two thirds of the way down the page).

I couldn't immediately find a picture of the jump to compare.

[JER]

Just out of curiosity, have any of the recent fatalities happened in a water jump?


Not in the past year. However, there have been deaths in water obstacles in the last ten years -- Ken Matchett (Reed mentioned it), the very experienced Irish rider David Foster (1998) and Caroline Pratt (Burghley 2004) all had fatal accidents in water.

[Shrapnel]

Exactly what good will that do?

Well...

During their suspension time, it will hopefully give the rider time to think "should I even be at this level?" OR "man, if i'm going to compete at this level, i better learn to ride a hell of a lot better" OR "Maybe I need more instruction".

The suspension time should be a time where the rider rethinks the whole situation IMO.

[bosox]

well...no one else liked the suggestion before but I still think had this rider had "judged" xc...i.e judged on riding over XC fences...that maybe this might have been avoided a long time ago.

Her record shows that she is having quite a time over these fences. However, b/c the classes seem to be small---she is sometimes looking like she has good results.

[Janet]

Well...

During their suspension time, it will hopefully give the rider time to think "should I even be at this level?" OR "man, if i'm going to compete at this level, i better learn to ride a hell of a lot better" OR "Maybe I need more instruction".

The suspension time should be a time where the rider rethinks the whole situation IMO.
I know nothing about this particular rider, so it is a generic comment.

If the rider has any sense at all, the fall itself will cause her to think, and rethink, those things.

If the rider doesn't have the sense to think those things because of the fall, I am not sure that the suspension itself will make her think them.

Maybe what is needed is something like the mandatory classroom session you have to go through to get your drivers license back after suspension.

[Sannois]

The fall into water makes it softer, she came off to the side, second or 3rd Photo. And it looks like he is not soaked at the end.
What point does beating a dead horse on this topic serve??? Seriously?:confused:
Go pic up a copy of Rough Riders. I dont have one, but a friend does. There are Rotational falls in the hunter ring, one in particular over a 2 ft six fence.
Most people in the Video are from the Chicago area early 80s. I just dont see the point in talking about the falls. I dont know, it seems like there is just a bunch bitching on most of these threads, and to what end?

[RAyers]

"Thank you. I am getting a bit tired for these threads that turn into bash-fests of people's riding and question whether they belong at a certain level or not."

flyingchange, guess what happens when the USEF/USEA start reviewing if you are qualified to go a certain level? What do you think the new rules are supposed to do? They do the same thing that is going on in this thread. There is a review of the incident, a review of past experience and history followed by discussing of if this person should be where they are. So, this thread is a microcosm of what goes on in the governing bodies. And don't tell me egos and personalities come into play at that level.

I know that these discussion have been conducted about me, especially when you see officials following you on course. All riders better get used to to scrutiny.

Reed

[flyingchange]

Reed -

I deleted the message before you posted. good enough?

[RAyers]

I didn't want you to delete your post. It was a valid comment. True, it sucks to have folks judge you when they may or may not know the full story. However, we can use this as an example of what type of judgement has gone on at the upper levels for years by those who run the sport. Now with the recent spate or accidents, this will get even worse.

My concern is that more good riders may be shunted out than bad riders being caught.

Reed

[eventmom]

I didn't want you to delete your post. It was a valid comment. True, it sucks to have folks judge you when they may or may not know the full story. However, we can use this as an example of what type of judgement has gone on at the upper levels for years by those who run the sport. Now with the recent spate or accidents, this will get even worse.

My concern is that more good riders may be shunted out than bad riders being caught.

Reed

Which is what always happens when you try to regulate common sense:eek:

[RAyers]

Which is what always happens when you try to regulate common sense:eek:


Agreed! Sad but true.

Reed

[breakthru]

ugh, looking at that just brought tears to my eyes. how terrifying. lucky girl, lucky horse.

My initial instinct (after the emotional one) was that I wish more eventers were forced to SEE this. kind of like those awful meat-ginder crash videos they used to make everyone watch in driver's ed? I had a student's mother recently ask me not to "scare" her daughter- and I couldn't believe it. I thought- "lady, if knowing the truth about the dangers of riding unsafely is scary to her, she shouldnt' be riding!" I think I managed to get the point across a bit more diplomatically.

But of course, circulating this sort of thing around blatantly to those who aren't familiar with the sport would only add to those calling for event riders blood.

[annikak]

I agree!

I have looked and looked at these pictures, and hope to have them stick in my brain. Maybe sounds strange, but to know they WHY's prevents the HAPPENS. I just plain and simple don't want it to happen to me.

Common sense has always told me "don't stuff a horse over a jump like that, safe log or not" but I have been told in the past to do so. (not by my current amazing instructor). Now, I have proof! One should not do such a silly, stupid thing!;)

I asked my DD to read Danny W's letter, and look at this BB and she did not want to hear or think about falls. That worried me. Same for others that I have spoken to. Yes, it scares me, but is should.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

[QUOTE=highlandgreen;3244733]I agree with previous posters that after a serious fall such as this a horse should be required to re qualify to upgrade. The horse should have to demonstrate that it will go forward to a fence in a willing manner before it tackles a larger course again.QUOTE]

Hear, hear!

I think if you look at the records of this pair, they do pretty well up to Intermediate. How far down would they need to drop in order to start to requalify at this level? Thoughts?

RE: Press Passes at HT post, page 2 (I think)

I have a complete sequence of Corrine's fall at Rolex, no press pass. Very interesting study though especially in light of the severe injury she incurred AND she got back on the horse.

[ponygirl]

Maybe that is all the horse is- a good Intermediate horse that she's trying to make into something he's not capable or not comfortable doing.

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=sofiethewonderhorse;3245406
I have a complete sequence of Corrine's fall at Rolex, no press pass. Very interesting study though especially in light of the severe injury she incurred AND she got back on the horse.[/QUOTE]


And she has studied these particular photos in order to help her get a better perspective of what went wrong, along with her own thoughts onboard.
Sometimes (and most times) it is the spectator who happens to be at the right place right time that gets the best photos on the day...and not those who have "press passes"....there is no pressure on these individuals to surpress their photos. I think the right set of photos can be of benefit to all concerned whether you are accredited or not.

[snoopy]

Maybe that is all the horse is- a good Intermediate horse that she's trying to make into something he's not capable or not comfortable doing.


So often one does well enough at INT level and are "oh so close" to getting to ADV and "pretend not to know" that infact that is what the horse is..a horse comfortable and capable at INT/two star level, but not ADV.
That is to say that if all the I's are dotted and the T's crossed in terms of schooling and prep and you are still having trouble, one might think that my horse is not capable of anything more. I do not know of this rider/horse combination, their record, successes, or failures so my comment is not directed at them in particular.

[Picasso]

You made my point. ;)

The truth is that how does one judge ability? How does one even get the chance to develop their abilities? We all, at one point or another, sucked.


Some of us still do! :D But I have my children, and they WILL ride correctly, or they don't event. Period. They develop their skills by working with an appropriate trainer and riding an appropriate horse. They move up when the trainer says "its time", not just because they feel they are ready to jump the bigger questions. I guess what is key is my trainer isn't afraid to say "nope, you aren't showing this weekend, your jump lesson was stinky" even if it means he has to tell me my entry fees just went down the toilet. Granted, we aren't talking this level yet, but he hasn't changed as they've moved up so far, I can't imagine he will be different in the future.

(I paraphrased the stinky part, he takes the time to explain what is going wrong and what needs to be worked through, and then they do)

[Threedaydream]

I was there this weekend... My coach and I were watching CX, and from the first few fences things were already going badly. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but like others already said, they probably shouldn't have been competing at this level. I believe they also got eliminated in Advanced when we were at Twin Rivers in April.
I guess I just think it's important for people to know the context in which at least a few of these rotational falls have taken place.

[PhoenixFarm]

It's important to understand the context in which ALL of these rotational have taken place, I think. Because finding those common threads of context are, I think, the ONLY way to turn the tide.

As far as spectator versus accreddited, hey by all means come as a spectator with your camera. However, I doubt, sofie, you attempted to either sell the photos to Corrine, or hock them to the highest bidder or most sensational source. I also doubt you would have lied about whether you were a spectator or member of the media.

No issue with the photos existing, or the imprtance of dicussing context of any of these issues. However people trying to make a buck of off others misfortunes, and people who lie, irk me. :yes:

[ideayoda]

Re the Mexico city drownings (russian horses), it was not at a water jump, nor a fall. There was a stream late on the course, there was a downpour and the course turned to a (raging) river which the horses had to swim (?), and the tired horses couldnt make it.

And just for another bit of info two (swedish) horses came from the 3day part and were sold to a dressage rider here (the owner didnt want to ship them back), and were her two fei horses for dressage (she is now an fei level judge as well).

A cool fence there was (a kind of) stairsteps (about 15 uphill leaps in a row), Page did it so easily.

[Gunnar]

The fall into water makes it softer, she came off to the side, second or 3rd Photo. And it looks like he is not soaked at the end.
What point does beating a dead horse on this topic serve??? Seriously?:confused:
Go pic up a copy of Rough Riders. I dont have one, but a friend does. There are Rotational falls in the hunter ring, one in particular over a 2 ft six fence.
Most people in the Video are from the Chicago area early 80s. I just dont see the point in talking about the falls. I dont know, it seems like there is just a bunch bitching on most of these threads, and to what end?

I witnessed this fall 1st hand and I can say the rider should have known when to call it quits. She and her horse are very lucky to have escaped major injury! I think we would be crazy not to take notice and make comments! Sorry to Dawn that we are judging her so harshly but it is what it is in the end!

[Appsolute]

I was jump judging at this event, the fence right before the fall (the table didn’t ride too smoothly for her either).

I was there with my father, I was talking to him about the recent accidents, and about how much has changed since I was eventing in the 90s. I pointed out the pins on the Intermediate oxer I was jump judging. And new rule changes, like one fall and your out.

I also commented on rule changes regarding crossing tracks, and that it seemed like many riders were making the SAFE choice to circle, get room, gain control, and jump safely. I am sure it ends up in time penalties, but it’s the right choice. I also saw a few retire, and call it a day.I applauded many riders for making good choices out on course. Staying safe is more important then placing any day!

This fall.. yes, the horse had stopped 3 times. From my vantage point, it was clear the horse was putting in the 3rd stop… rider urged the horse on.. horse attempted to clear the obstacle with no impulsion left.. and a bad fall resulted.

(oh, and there were a lot of stops at the advanced water)

Edited to add a few comments

From my angle, it looked like a solid 3 stops (breaks on, sliding to the fence), and the horse almost "fell" over the jump, rather then ever making any jumping attempt. The other jump judge commented "Did he ever even try to jump?" Just to give an idea of how the fall happened, being as, I feel the point of this discussion should be HOW do rotational falls happen, so that we can PREVENT them. There is no doubt that there are hundreds of different reasons. From my view.. it looked like the horse was DONE and urged on.. and made a half hearted attempt, resulting in the fall.

Also.. the water was up a hill, after a large solid table. A lot of riders rode the table fast (for intermediate it was an oxer, prelim had rails closer to the water). I noticed this up hill section was one of the longer stretches on course. It seemed like riders were using it to save some time. Many of the riders who had problems at the water came at it FAST, yet that was not the cause of the bad fall, just some gasps from bystanders.

And I did mention this to the TD when he came by to ask how my jump was riding.

[RugBug]

TT's body and legs cleared the fence but his front feet did not support his weight as they landed on the ground at the back side of the fence. When his front legs collapsed his upper body rolled over his chest and neck which were already in contact with the ground, i.e. the rotation actually happens after the horse has hit the ground and is more like a roll.

That's not what I saw in the pictures. TT chested the jump with his left side, only the right leg came up. This was the offset rotational pivot point. The hind end starting elevating and had some twist to it because of the offset pivot point. The right leg and nose generated upward motion so that the left leg that caused the rotation came up and out in front of him, but the hind end was already rotating too far and couldn't be stopped.

[SR Rider]

I was fence judging at a show where there was a rotational fall with serious injury;
the show photographer took a serious of photos and downloaded them on a CD to send with the rider in the helicopter so that the ER docs could evaluate the accident and resulting injury.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

It's important to understand the context in which ALL of these rotational have taken place, I think. Because finding those common threads of context are, I think, the ONLY way to turn the tide.

As far as spectator versus accreddited, hey by all means come as a spectator with your camera. However, I doubt, sofie, you attempted to either sell the photos to Corrine, or hock them to the highest bidder or most sensational source. I also doubt you would have lied about whether you were a spectator or member of the media.

No issue with the photos existing, or the imprtance of dicussing context of any of these issues. However people trying to make a buck of off others misfortunes, and people who lie, irk me. :yes:

The first time around, I heard you loud and clear PhoenixFarm AND I truly do understand your frustration.

No, I didn't try to 'hawk' the photos of Corrine, and you are right about any photographer trying to sell photos (especially of a nasty fall) in stabling.

I don't know the rest of that story.

I do know that the Woodside series was very educational.... as Rod Stewart said, (what seems like a hundred years ago)...."every picture paints a story, don't it?"

[pegasus209]

Wow.. scary indeed. Thanks for sharing the photos and discussion!

[tuppysmom]

While these photos are sensational they only show us what has already happened. What we really need to see is the 6 to 10 seconds of the approach to the fence. We need to see the balance, (or lack of), of the horse, the position of the rider on the approach and as the horse leaves/doesn't leave the ground. There is where we need to look. These falls happen in the srides well before the horse fails to jump. We just notice the aftermath of the mistake. These falls happen because of lack of preparation on the approach. I am a firm believer in the fact that horses don't want to fall. When they do it must be because the rider made it impossible for them to not fall. Now we need to find the way to educated the riders so the horses have a chance to do their jobs safely. How do we do that? It isn't a fence problem or a course design problem, it's a rider problem. Not an easy fix. JMO

[Ajierene]

I agree with Tuppysmom - after the fall does not help as much as before the fall. Was it a fluke? Was the horse done before that jump and should have been retired? Was the horse unbalanced because of a bad approach?

So many questions need to be answered in order to resolve this.

[Sightunseen]

I was there this weekend... My coach and I were watching CX, and from the first few fences things were already going badly. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but like others already said, they probably shouldn't have been competing at this level. I believe they also got eliminated in Advanced when we were at Twin Rivers in April.
I guess I just think it's important for people to know the context in which at least a few of these rotational falls have taken place.

I saw the beginning of their course to and would agree that they did not look like they belonged there. Only 3 horse got around that A course and only 1 w/o jump penalties and many top riders were having problems at Intermediate, but they knew when it was time to pack it in and go home.

[Appsolute]

I saw standing BEHIND the horse.. just 20 feet or so away, as I was jumping judging the fence RIGHT BEFORE this one (I even have a photo of the long spot they got at the table).

How did THIS fall happen? Horse STOPPED for the 3rd time at this fence.. He stopped to the right side. He had slid into the jump on all three stops. The last one, he slid to a stop, slid into the fence, and then attempted to jump it, as if it were mearly a drop, that you could jump from a stand still.

But, its not mearly a drop, but a fence with height. He didn't clear it with his front leg, and this led to the rotational fall.

In my opinion the horse was not unbalanced from a bad approach, it was a bit flukish, as they really didn't have much at all in the way of moment left after the stop. The horse did seem DONE and they were having a hard time with this course (roughest ride out of the 6 that made it to my fence).

[Outfox]

I, too, was privy to this accident.

And as several people have said earlier, she and her horse are lucky that they walked away.

It was obvious to me that the horse had quit on the second stop. It was bad judgment for the pair to reattempt a third time. But, in the heat of the moment, she decided to go for the low probability jumping attempt, into water. Just glad no one was hurt.

[Carol Ames]

I had heard that the GJ had wanted her :yes:stopped, but, she rode on anyway:no:

[Carol Ames]

It seems obvious from this thread :winkgrin:i that there is needed a clear definition of what a rotational fall is:yes:/is :no:not,

[Stretchy]

I had heard that the GJ had wanted her :yes:stopped, but, she rode on anyway:no:

There was no mention over the walkie-talkies to pull her up. I was fence judging a couple fences down the line - she would have circled back and came through my fence (Coop/Sunken road combo) so I saw it from a similar perspective as Appsolute. And yes, I saw the long spot over your table Appsolute.

As she approached the last time that horse obviously didn't have the engine to properly get over the fence. They dropped out of sight and everyone at my jump fell silent. Then they popped up thankfully and walked off the course.

[beeblebrox]

The rider was sited with a yellow card for her reckless riding and she disagreed with the ground jury.

Was standing next to Ulrich and others enjoying comp. party while visiting and they were shaking their heads! (OK MANY PEOPLE where shaking there heads and happy she was alive and the horse was OK)

She did not get what she did was dangerous even with media to look at! (the comment was she disagreed which would indicate she did not think what she did was dangerous) I do not think anyone said she was IN GENERAL a dangerous rider or she would not be where she is today!

RIDER ACCOUNTABILITY???? (IN this day and AGE we must have more of this, PMing people who think riders need to be accountable as well as parents and instructors is well not going to fix the problem, I can appreciate that you love your wife, in the past I have loved to watch she and her grey super pony run. )

EDITED notes in parenthesis after a touching (not) PM from Dawn's husband, I stand by what I said Mr. White , I was there and your threats are not going to change what happened. As I stated to you in my reply, be thankful you have your wife who is indeed a talented rider who made a mistake (like all riders we make them) and I think everyone is happy that they are both ok but it is also OK to consider that a MISTAKE was made!

[Carol Ames]

Stretchy, the report i in the COTH r said that they were attempting to flag her down, but, she rode on anyway. Are we talking about the same event /rider?:confused: (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/member.php?u=93096)

[beeblebrox]

"
Originally Posted by Carol Ames
I had heard that the GJ had wanted her stopped, but, she rode on anyway
There was no mention over the walkie-talkies to pull her up. I was fence judging a couple fences down the line -"

As most fence judges KNOW you are not privy (as your only on the channel you have been instructed to be on, if your following instructions) to the discussions of the announcer and ground jury. You may very well not be aware nor informed of the ground jury's impending decision on Vapor Trail. Stand next to a ground jury person during XC and you will get a lot more insight into the "chatter". The fence judges on are a report channel, such as # 230 clear fence #5. not on the inside channel where things are discussed! My point is it is quite possible the jury was make that decision and just because nothing was heard on the fence judge channel does not mean the jury and others were not discussing it.

[dwhite]

This has been quite a thread. it started out with a copy from tthe photographer that took the photos of Dawns fall at Woodside along with the first of the (I heards). Let me address the I heards;

Fact: she was checked out by the Medical staff on site (She never "Refused" treatment.)

Fact: she was more than qualified to compete in advanced at this show.

Fact: There was no attempt to stop her on course therefore she didn't "ride on anyway."

Fact: She argued with the officials because 1) they had their facts wrong 2) They chose the public flogging in front of the crowd 10 minutes after the fall while we were getting the horse checked by the Vets. (seems to me that this was a topic of discussion during the safety summit) A private meeting after the horse was taken care of would have been a little more appropriate don't ya think.

Fact: Dawn didn't see the photos that McCool took at all. It seems that so many people were flocking to McCools booth to see the photos of the fall that McCool removed them from the website and informed the organizer and me that they had done so. I personally thanked McCool for their discretion. She saw no pictures until 5 days later.

Since she stood up after the fall with a couple of scratches on her elbows,and he had a superficial scratch on his neck and a half inch scrape on his butt.She really had no idea at that time of the imensity of the fall. Those that saw it happen had a completely different view than what Dawn had. All she knew was that she fell off in the water. She went face first and was the first to hit. she had no idea of what followed her.

I was shown the photos the next day and it literally sat me back in my chair. I chose not to show Dawn until we got Vaportrail safely home and he was okay. That happens to be 2 8 hour days of driving for us. She has been soulsearching since we've been back and isn't feeling good about anything with the exception of Kerry being 100% fine. After seeing the photos she is kind of "weirded out" about not being hurt or killed. We have had 3 funerals in 4 months. We recieved news that her brother was killed in the UK by a drunk 70 year old who entered the highway going the wrong direction just as we were loading the first horse for our trip to Ca. in Feb. A couple days before we left the Kosses ranch for Twin Rivers we recieved a call telling us about Robert Leyens death. Robert was a good friend, and that was extremely hard to digest. Yesterday was the funeral for one of my fellow Fire Fighters who lost a short battle with an extremely agressive rare cancer. Dawn wonders why she was spared.

Dawn does not believe that she is a dangerous rider. She does believe that she made a bad decision that led to the fall and she accepts that responsibility. I can assure all of you that her approach to cross country when she returns will be much more thought out. Her personal rule in any case is 2 stops anywhere and she's done. She has nothing to prove,and Vaportrail owes us nothing. To this point it's been a fantastic journey that he's taken us on. If he wants to continue he'll show us. He's always been full of surprises.

How about knocking off the "I heard this,and I heard that" and moving forward in a positive manner for a change. The fall happened, it's done, they walked away, she accepts responsibility, and they'll be on the sidelines for awhile.

[Gunnar]

Thanks for the update on Dawn! 1st of all I am happy to hear she and her horse were OK! I am glad to hear she saw the pictures and learned from her accident. The pictures say it all and if she learns something then more power to her next time!

I am not part of the "I heard crowd" but I am a part of the seeing it crowd as I was there! Having just been at Rolex I am super sensitive so it turned my stomach that day! :sadsmile: It is a sensitive subject these days so we all jump to conclusions when we do not have the facts! :sadsmile: Now we have some facts! :yes:

[Stretchy]

Stretchy, the report i in the COTH r said that they were attempting to flag her down, but, she rode on anyway. Are we talking about the same event /rider?:confused: (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/member.php?u=93096)

Yes of course I'm talking about the same event/rider. I'm not an event rider but I do judge fences at most of the Woodside events because I like to help. And with everything happening in the industry the last few months, seeing a fall like that isn't something I would mix up.

During the fence judge instructions prior to starting in the morning they discussed falls at length. They said they would call out over the walkie-talkies if they wanted someone stopped. We were told to step up near the jump (VERY SAFELY) and get the riders attention to call to them to stop. And I did have to do that during this horse trial as someone was coming toward my jump with 4 refusals.

It's been a few weeks but I don't remember anything coming across the walkie-talkies as she was attempting that jump. That doesn't mean they weren't discussing it as it was happening, though.

[dwhite]

There was no call to stop her on course, Why do you keep bringing it up? Let it go,..it's done.

[Janet]

There is a BIG difference between:
-"The officials were DISCUSSING THE POSSIBILITY of flagging her down" (and unless we were on the "private channel", none of us know)
and
-"The officials tried to flag her down" (it is pretty clear this did NOT happen).

[Carol Ames]

I would like to consider the placement of water jumps at the end of the course:no:; It seems to me that falls are more likely there :yes:;haven't there been several rent recent fatalities :eek:at water jumps at the ends of courses?

[JER]

I would like to consider the placement of water jumps at the end of the course:no:; It seems to me that falls are more likely there :yes:;haven't there been several rent recent fatalities :eek:at water jumps at the ends of courses?

I think you're totally right about this, Carol.

I don't know why the 2nd or 3rd last fence should ever be a water complex.