Does dressage need a change?

[kwpnWB]

The whole month of May I’ve been on a small CDI tour with my horse and others. And I can’t express enough how much things have changed within the last 5-10 years! To the point that it simply amazes me, and leaves me standing with my mouth open.

Yes, horses have improved, and so have riders. Where as 10 years ago only a handful of dressage horses could DO piaffe and passage, and be the ones at the top of their game. As of now almost all of your PSG horses can do a decent piaffe and passage.

And I know as horses get better, the judging gets harder. But there comes a point where we need to be reminded what our lower levels where ment to do.

Right now my horse and I are going for HOY for Training and First level, and it’s been an amazing experience. And it’s been a LONG time since I’ve done those levels as well.

I remember showing my Quarter horse at the level, and getting an average of 62% and winning! Now you need a 69% or better to be placing in the top 3! So things have changed, I get that.

But what USDF and USEF need to realized (IMO) that a horses POLL shouldn’t be the highest point at TRAINING/FIRST level!

The point of Training level is to see if the horse can stay balanced the whole test. Having a steady test with a more consistent ride should be the goal at training level. Not already having a second level frame. What happen to the training tree?

Rhythm and regularity is the first item on the training scale, forming the bottom of the triangle and is as straightforward as it sounds. We need to consider that before we put our horses poll high in the air. Until the gaits have the correct rhythm and regularity, the horse cannot begin learning the complicated maneuvers. It is the foundation of dressage and all other things stem from here – a horse with a poorly regulated trot, cannot, for example, learn an extended trot.


I know things change, but the basic foundation of a GOOD QUALITY dressage horse should not be lost. And if we start asking for a second level frame at Training level, what becomes then for the second level frame/collection? And so forth...?


Maybe someone else can explain it a little bit better?

[Tiligsmom]

Maybe what you're seeing is an over correction from all of the BTV worries....

[afastarabian]

But what USDF and USEF need to realized (IMO) that a horses POLL shouldn’t be the highest point at TRAINING/FIRST level!



I wondered about this myself. I am fairly new to Dressage, having started 4-5 years ago. At this point I am showing First Level and doing some Second Level schooling. My instructor is more the "Classical Dressage" type. When I ride with her she is always telling to get my horse's poll lower. She stopped showing a few years ago after several years of competing in FEI. But when I show, I try to get my horse's poll UP, otherwise I get dinged for it!

I would like to hear explainations for this also.

[Melissa.Hare.Jones]

Actually, the horse's poll should always* be the highest point of the neck, even at Training Level. But I know what you mean... you're talking about the shortened outline and elevated neck more appropriate to a Second Level horse, and riders getting that "look" by riding the horse in an outline he's not really strong, balanced and supple enough to achieve without a lot of kick and pull. Right?

*MTA: (with the exception of reaching forward/down/out as required in the "stretchy circles" and as regular-but-active breaks in everyday training)

[kwpnWB]

Actually, the horse's poll should always* be the highest point of the neck, even at Training Level. But I know what you mean... you're talking about the shortened outline and elevated neck more appropriate to a Second Level horse, and riders getting that "look" by riding the horse in an outline he's not really strong, balanced and supple enough to achieve without a lot of kick and pull. Right?

*MTA: (with the exception of reaching forward/down/out as required in the "stretchy circles" and as regular-but-active breaks in everyday training)


Thats exactly what I mean. Not so much collection, but the look of being supple, and nose leading a little bit.

[sabryant]

I couldn't agree with you more, KwpnWB!! Yaaaaay for your post!!! The strength of the haunches should lift the shoulder/poll in a natural way otherwise you leave no room to elasticize the back. If you did work (transitions) of raising the shoulder/poll at these low levels, you would break the horse down. It takes time to raise the shoulder/poll.

[dsgshowmom]

I, for one, can totally relate to you. :sigh:

It is incredibly frustrating when you put that time and effort into a young horse, and are doing it by the training scale and do not get rewarded for it.

I think, IMHO, that the way dressage is scored these days it makes everyone wonder just what the heck they are looking at or what they are striving for.

I saw a horse a few shows ago win a FEI 5 yr old test. The horse looked like it was about to go down centerline at GP. And yes, as you state, the horses gaits were changing throughout the test. :confused:

Sure it was a lovely, lovely horse, but it had tension in its back, and kept changing rhythm between the gaits, also, not to mention, it was super "up" and not very controlled. Of course, it won. :eek:

During that same class, we saw horses who were very correct, just as lovely, but not as "expertly (pro) ridden". :(

This goes back to a few POSTS ago where I was complaining how some people, just because of who they are, can go in there and do a less than stellar performance but because they are who they are, they are almost guaranteed to win.

Its very frustrating to compete theses days at the bigger shows because there is a more of a "who you know, how well connected you are" and how friendly friendly you get with the judges that matters than good riding. I am sure there will people who will poo poo me on that, but go to a few shows that cost $500+
for a few weeks straight and you might actually feel the same way.

My poor kid, she wants so bad to get somewhere in this sport. Once upon a time I did too, but then the reality set in. The whole JR/YR thing is a complete joke too, but even worse because it pressures the parents to keep up with the jones or your kid won't win. The added pressure is that your kid KNOWS this part of the game too, and can't show up at the championships substandard horse and expect to win. If they do show up on that little arab, you can rest assured that people will be looking at them like "Just why did you even bother to show up?" *** It sure won't be rewarded!!!! I can tell you that!!! ****

I am, I hate to admit it, less and less interested in this silly rat race of dressage than I have ever been. Why should we spend this rediculous amount of money to have judges who are biased? And also, who fratenize with BN competitors right in view of other competitors, and then score them in the 70's while everone else scores in the 50-60's? Do the judges think we are all blind? Trust me I am not the only one to notice these "little" things.

As for me, I think me and my old gelding are going to start doing more fun things, like organized trail rides, going to the beach, learning how to jump etc etc. Dressage has lost its fun for me, and I hate to see the day it happens for my kid, but I will find a whole bunch of less expensive, more fun things to do on our weekends.

[kwpnWB]

I, for one, can totally relate to you. :sigh:

It is incredibly frustrating when you put that time and effort into a young horse, and are doing it by the training scale and do not get rewarded for it.

I think, IMHO, that the way dressage is scored these days it makes everyone wonder just what the heck they are looking at or what they are striving for.

I saw a horse a few shows ago win a FEI 5 yr old test. The horse looked like it was about to go down centerline at GP. And yes, as you state, the horses gaits were changing throughout the test. :confused:

Sure it was a lovely, lovely horse, but it had tension in its back, and kept changing rhythm between the gaits, also, not to mention, it was super "up" and not very controlled. Of course, it won. :eek:

During that same class, we saw horses who were very correct, just as lovely, but not as "expertly (pro) ridden". :(

This goes back to a few POSTS ago where I was complaining how some people, just because of who they are, can go in there and do a less than stellar performance but because they are who they are, they are almost guaranteed to win.

Its very frustrating to compete theses days at the bigger shows because there is a more of a "who you know, how well connected you are" and how friendly friendly you get with the judges that matters than good riding. I am sure there will people who will poo poo me on that, but go to a few shows that cost $500+
for a few weeks straight and you might actually feel the same way.

My poor kid, she wants so bad to get somewhere in this sport. Once upon a time I did too, but then the reality set in. The whole JR/YR thing is a complete joke too, but even worse because it pressures the parents to keep up with the jones or your kid won't win. The added pressure is that your kid KNOWS this part of the game too, and can't show up at the championships substandard horse and expect to win. If they do show up on that little arab, you can rest assured that people will be looking at them like "Just why did you even bother to show up?" *** It sure won't be rewarded!!!! I can tell you that!!! ****

I am, I hate to admit it, less and less interested in this silly rat race of dressage than I have ever been. Why should we spend this rediculous amount of money to have judges who are biased? And also, who fratenize with BN competitors right in view of other competitors, and then score them in the 70's while everone else scores in the 50-60's? Do the judges think we are all blind? Trust me I am not the only one to notice these "little" things.

As for me, I think me and my old gelding are going to start doing more fun things, like organized trail rides, going to the beach, learning how to jump etc etc. Dressage has lost its fun for me, and I hate to see the day it happens for my kid, but I will find a whole bunch of less expensive, more fun things to do on our weekends.


I went down the JR/YG rider road last year, and let me tell you! Its not about the talent of the young rider anymore, its about the TALENT of what the parents can purchase.

For me I am a very competitive rider, and I am looking into getting a young horse, and I am excited to start from scratch.

But there is another side of my thinking of what will happen if the horse is pushed to much.

I don't like now riding my training level horse into a second level frame just to win or get a high percentage (And thats what I've been doing)...

[exvet]

My poor kid, she wants so bad to get somewhere in this sport. Once upon a time I did too, but then the reality set in. The whole JR/YR thing is a complete joke too, but even worse because it pressures the parents to keep up with the jones or your kid won't win. The added pressure is that your kid KNOWS this part of the game too, and can't show up at the championships substandard horse and expect to win. If they do show up on that little arab, you can rest assured that people will be looking at them like "Just why did you even bother to show up?" *** It sure won't be rewarded!!!! I can tell you that!!! ****

I am, I hate to admit it, less and less interested in this silly rat race of dressage than I have ever been. Why should we spend this rediculous amount of money to have judges who are biased? And also, who fratenize with BN competitors right in view of other competitors, and then score them in the 70's while everone else scores in the 50-60's? Do the judges think we are all blind? Trust me I am not the only one to notice these "little" things.

Let me begin by saying I do truly understand what you are saying and have suspected some of the same on more than one occasion; but, I find what you write very sad, very sad indeed. I cannot afford to put my child through JR/YR's in terms of THE program/competitions. I have developed a horse from scratch to now schooling Prix St. George. Once I've earned my scores for my silver (barring any unforeseen problems that should be within the year) I will be handing the horse over to my daughter. He is not of the same caliber as the "typical" YR horse. She is reluctant to take him on but not because of his "perceived lesser value". She currently rides another of the same breed who she adores despite the beast being very green and trying at times. One of the reasons she loves her horse so much is because she has spent a lot of time watching her go from scratch as well, slowly improving and simply bonding with her through trail riding and the like. She truly adores her horse. When asked point blank, she chooses to show no other. I do NOT feel pressure to compete with other parents. I do, however, want to give her the opportunity to learn from a more advanced horse so it will allow her to better develop her own horse. Having chosen to focus on a specific breed, my goals have always been to develop individuals within that breed, bring them along according to the training scale, and see how far they can go and enjoy the journey/process. I am proud of the accomplishments and small victories that each one has garnered (we have a few).

My daughter has learned by watching me that "the big time" is not everything. Occasionally she laments about what so-and-so has but when I press her (ie, I could sell 3 or 4 of them, including her horse, and buy her the big time) she passes. She has seen what hard work has accomplished as well as the inequities and politics. I think it's sad when the young are taught to focus on winning, buying the win, and how to look the part. Instead I truly believe that my daughter is learning to enjoy the process, the journey, and what it really means to ride/train a horse according to the training scale. THAT is what I want her to take with her when she leaves the nest. I sincerely hope she learns to value herself and her horses more by working towards and reaching those small milestones. Knowing that she's taken a living, breathing being, learned how to develop a partnership and allowing it to shine within its limitations will serve her far better in life. There is far too much "failure" and disappointment to go around to make it all about winning/losing and how much it cost to get there in terms of life revolving around one shot at "the big time". My "investment" in her riding is to help her take what she's learned and utilize it to her advantage in other facets of life where you can't "simply buy it" and expect to succeed.

Again I do understand the frustrations exhibited here and have seen and questioned much of the same; but, I also think we either allow it to affect us personally or we choose to hold true to what the whole concept of dressage is about. Personally for the good of my horses and my child, I will continue to pursue the sport/art on my own terms, doing my best to seek out those who really apply the principles and continue to demonstrate to my daughter the difference between right and wrong despite "life being unfair". It's already become apparent that it's working as she's getting a pretty damn good eye for lamenesses, tight backs, tension, etc despite what the scoreboard says. Her finally understanding the difference between flash that comes from tension vs. freedom that comes from relaxation, well, THAT to me is the only championship she needs to win :cool:

[ideayoda]

I feel for your daughter, the training should be judged most of all.

The FEI/USEF directives say that the poll (the occipital lobe/in front of the ears) should always be the highest point (of the neck) in all gaits/movements, and the line of the face should (as a general rule) be slightly in front of the vertical. Only in piaffe (newer rule change) is the horse allowed to come to the vertical. That said, the posture of a lower level horse should be natural (not necessarily low)/well in front of the vertical and allow for activity of the hindlegs and freedom of the gaits. Certainly in the fdo/stretches the poll isnt higher than the withers, but equally the horse should open the throatlach and seek the hand.

I certainly agree that we see way too many horse to shorten(ed) and rounded at all levels, but particularly at lower levels (I call it perciptious flexion originating in the rider). It is not the up part, but the closed/shortened which is not originating in the folding of the hindleg joints nor much of a lowering of the croup which is problematic imho. Without those things the neck is not lifted or arced as a reflection of the rest of the horse, but an affection. Is it a result of young riders thinking young horses are merely baby FEI horses? Or is it just making expressive horses more expressive for $$$ sales? Is it 'right"?

[Ambrey]

Q- is there ever a point at which a horse in training should go btv? If so, what does it accomplish?

[ideayoda]

Accidental/momentary loss of balance, or if the rider might be 'making a point' or a horse which is rather weak/thin throatlatch and momentarily unable to sustain itself out to the bit (in a fdo stretch). Sustained there? Not imho (nor the rules) because it indicates a problem with the balance, the activity, or the aids of the rider.

[Rusty Stirrup]

As I've been saying for years- It's become nothing more than a horse show.

[Tiki]

Well, I remember back in the early 80's a very BNR/T and Olympic Team member that I worked for and rode with told me that this person would get 10 points extra automatically just for entering the ring at "A". Also, told me that Training and First should be just as described by the OP, but that - even back then - if you didn't bring the horse into the ring in a 2nd level frame, you would not win - unless it was all lower level amateurs and none of them did either.

What a shame!

I was also told by this person not to buy into that, but to truly understand that the head can't come up until the horse learns to sit behind and that I was NOT to pull the horse up by the head.

[cinder88]

That said, the posture of a lower level horse should be natural (not necessarily low)/well in front of the vertical and allow for activity of the hindlegs and freedom of the gaits.

But, if you show with that, you'll get lower marks than the next horse who has his head "placed" correctly. I've seen it over and over again.

It is frustrating for those of us who want to do it "right", and who have average horses. There certainly is a temptation to show the judges what they apparently want to see.... I believe that is one of the reasons a lot of people don't show.

For myself and my young, VERY average horse I show because I enjoy it. I like getting him out and having him see different things...But, I don't care too much about the scores. The placings and the comments are more important to me..and that I was true to what I believe is correct for a TR/1st level horse.

I truly hope there IS a backlash and the pendulum swings away from the curled up, often-BTV head placement. Hopefully, a few years from now, we'll be complaining because in the lower levels, horses who "look like hunters" are placing above those in "the frame". Then, perhaps we can eventually come back to where we should be, which is poll highest, but nose slightly IFoV.

Of course, I'll be dead of old age by then!

Cinder

[ideayoda]

A natural position does not (however) mean low nor flat, but more up but still open. So far the highest qualifiers in 5 yos (in germany) still have that posture. That is not a second level (collected) posture, but just one which allows for activity. What is sad is what follows excessively rounded (whether low or up/shortened), the 6 yo loose the freedom of the youngsters when they are rounded too early. Bit difference between the two, and easily misunderstood.

[sabryant]

A natural position does not (however) mean low nor flat, but more up but still open. So far the highest qualifiers in 5 yos (in germany) still have that posture. That is not a second level (collected) posture, but just one which allows for activity. What is sad is what follows excessively rounded (whether low or up/shortened), the 6 yo loose the freedom of the youngsters when they are rounded too early. Bit difference between the two, and easily misunderstood.

Training with the open throatlatch inhibits the horse from using his back correctly. It makes horses stiff and locked in the very area that creates all movement through the body. A foals natural carriage is up and out and his back is DOWN.

[jodelaney]

You are absolutely correct. Judges need to refer to the "Purpose" sectoin of their handbooks for each level. In the trainer/judge symposium ran by Stefan Peters and Janet Brown - - they actually raise this issue.

Bthankful you riders in the US have knowledgeable judges and are not up here in Canada stuck with our dingbats - - they would make your skin crawl they are so useless and each and every one of them for sale - - do disheartening

[HSS]

I can't say I disagree with any one here over the head carraige vs. judging issues.

When my current FEI horse was 3, I had him in a dressage suitability class at a breeding show, ridden correctly for a 3 year old, ie: accepting of the bit, but not curled, behind it, or with his nose between his knees. That, by the way, was how each of the horses who beat him were ridden. The horse which won the class was distinctly curled (rollkur was not yet in the lexion) and rushed off her feet to boot.

My gelding has, and has always had, international movement to rival Farbenfroh. In walk, trot, and canter. And, yes, he has been well rewarded for that quality by nearly any judge who has had him come down center line.

I knew then that something was dreadfully amiss in the dressage world if 3 year olds who were being cranked and spanked were considered the best raw material.

That was nearly a decade ago.

I've not shown in quite a while, as other issues have prevailed, but with diesel at $4.75/gallon, and just the fees to join the 3 organizations required for a typical recognized show in my area, it's not likely I'll be worrying about showing any time soon. I feel distinctly priced out of the market, and I no longer think it worth while to go into the ring to be judged by women who can't ride their way out of a paper bag....well, I've watched them try to for 35+ years, so I think I've earned the right to say so........plus paying an arm and a leg for that "pleasure".

I've been in dressage going on 40 years- I've known these judges most of my life- very few command any respect at all from me, and more than that, it's a club now of who pays the most to them as to whom gets the ribbons. Ridiculous. Might as well show in western pleasure classes- then it's who has the most silver on their leather who wins! Where's the difference in dressage nowadays? I can't see any either on the local or international levels anymore.

I've always voted with my pocketbook, and it's worked in other industries. It can work in dressage as well.

[ideayoda]

Sabryant, then you will have to lobby the fei to changes the rules about balance and bearing since they say that the horse should be (as a rule) slightly ifv (which comes from a slightly open throatlatch still being allowed or being representative of the conneciton with the hindlegs from hh). Babies can show lowered in their quarters along with freedom (of the shoulders/forearms). But what does a hh do? It folds all the hindleg joints more/lowers the quarters, it (starts to lift/raise the shoulders and arc the neck) but if the horse is chewing it is seeking the hand (which can be foward or down or out) as the rider allows. Close the throatlatch (to vertical or beyond) and the balancing rod of the neck will no longer be connected with what the hindlegs are doing.

[sabryant]

I don't think I need to lobby the FEI. I don't know why you keep harping on a directive, that might still be in place, but has, so obviously, been antiquated by the new style horse. The FEI appointed judges must think that directive is antiquated too as the top international level riders don't shuffle around the arena on stiff backed horses with hind legs stepping out of the bottom of their necks, their throat latches open, and their noses poked out. It just ain't happening anymore and thank goodness!

[ideayoda]

The (older) style horse needed to be brought to collection methodically over time, but the horses which are more naturally balance MUST stay out to the bridle or there is no 'address' to collecting the horse at all, nor folding the hindlegs more. No matter what training the nose should not 'poke out' which indicates a horse on the forehand, rather the horse carries the neck/head out to the bridle because of what the hindlegs are doing. There is no shortcutting mother nature, one you have to slowly ride up, the other you have to ride for a longer period of time longer and honestly out to the hand to get an honest connection. Impose the hand to connect the ends and the hindquarters never fold correctly. Look at the (top) 5 yo FEI of today, nicely open/long strides/great freedom/(perhaps slightly too up) etc, then they seem to lose all that and shorten/almost flatten as 6 yos, they become closed/held. And way too many of the winning fei horses are not laterally flexible enough to even do a good corner, let alone maintain a pure gait. How many fold their hindlegs and sit? The middle part is up because the front is ridden shortened, not the withers raised by the folded hindlegs/lowered quarters/lifted and arced neck in the horse. How many horses show a light connection with the curb vs how many curbs are torqued steadily?

[canticle]

I don't buy the argument that "new style" horses are no good for real dressage, and thus judging needs to be changed for them.

But even if it is true... if I go into the ring on my old style horse, can I asked to be judged according to the real rules? IFV, open throatlatch, using the hindend, off the forehand? Why should my traditionally built horse be marked down just because he is able to follow the rules?

sabryant, would you be in favor of splitting dressage in two? How can those following the rules compete against those breaking them? Especially when the judges prefer the look of a non-dressage horse? :confused:

[sabryant]

Ideayoda, I think you know how I would answer that, and the technique I use for getting the horse to move form behind to the bit. Don't want to sore up an already hashed over subject so will not mention it here!


Cantile, LOL, it's just my opinion. I see it as future of dressage and I love what I'm seeing! You can ride any way you wish and however suits you and your horse the best. I hope you have a great competiton season! I love all horses, old or new style!! But, have to say, yaaay for the breeders...I think they've done a brilliant job and they are making the job for the trainers much easier!