"Late Behind" - Any Exercises to Help Fix?

[tlw]

My third level mare has a bad habit of changing late behind on her flying changes and I'm looking for exercises to help fix that. I've heard that this is worse than changing early behind. Does anybody have any thoughts on how to fix this problem. As an aside, she is also an eventer and learned her changes the "non-dressage" way, that is to say: between jumps. We're now going to a fair amount of dressage shows and I'd really like to fix this. We qualified for the regional championships last year at 3d level so we are pretty confirmed at there, except for those two movements. All suggestions welcome. Thanks.

[bird4416]

I have a horse that will occasionally be late behind. The way I get a nice change is to have an active collected canter before I ask for the change. I also have to keep him straight. He has a tendency to anticipate the change and get crooked. If I can keep him straight, keep the back end active and the canter collected I will get a nice change. (sometimes I think the planets must be aligned and all my fingers must be crossed:)) If he gives me a bad change (late behind or other garbage) I try again and check that I have the above things first. Usually this works for me.

[Schiffon]

If this is the first horse you've tried to do "dressage" changes on, you may have difficulty getting the feel well enough to retrain this horse. Practicing on a horse properly schooled in flying changes is important.

Frequently problems in changes are really problems in the quality of collected canter and all of the exercises for this can be recommended. The ability to do correct, balanced, non-resistant simple changes is crucial. Thereafter, doing multiple simple changes on a long diagonal until the horse starts to anticipate the transition and then instead asking for a flying change as the last change of the diagonal may work.

It may be helpful to think of the problem as changing early in front rather than late behind. A more effective, repeated half-halt on the new outside rein to prevent the shoulder shift this horse has learned along with perhaps a surprise of a whip tap behind the leg on the new outside side, all applied with proper timing and magnitude may work.

Some advocate doing a figure 8 with a ground pole at the center, but I find this usually detracts from the idea of working on canter collection. However, since correcting difficult changes can be a journey of trial and error, I put it out there for consideration.

The usual disclaimer of not having seen you and the horse and the benefit of having a knowledgable on-site trainer applies, of course.

[J-Lu]

I agree with Shiffon's post.

I think late behind happens mostly with lack of engagement/activity of the hind end. Some horses start their changes this way, and as the canter improves and response time to your aids improve (you may have to examine what you're considering an "acceptable" response time from your horse). I don't think it is a big problem to fix.

I think the way to address it is to fix the engagement in the canter and build strength. Exercise 1. spend some time doing canter/walk/canter/halt/trot/walk/canter transitions (or something like that) and NOT in the usual places (i.e. X). This makes your horse realize that she has to keep his attention on your seat and leg aids because she's not sure what's going to happen next, and automatically improves the gaits and responsiveness if ridden well. THEN try a flying change on a short diagonal. Reward a good effort and don't drill. Exercise 2. In the canter - lots of FORWARD and back showing a CLEAR difference. Keep the horse straight and the poll up, and your horse will have to engage the hind legs to push into the medium/extended canter and come back. THEN try a flying change. (I really like in fourth level where you do the extended canter across the diagonal, collect, and then change). Exercise 3. If you can produce a quality, engaged half-pass, then the half-pass to the rail, counter canter for 1-2 strides and change exercise is really good (better than C-C to the next letter, where some horses can get lazy). Exercise 4. LOTS of shoulder-fore/shoulder-in in the canter...then to shoulder-in across the diagonal, *straighten* (most important part), change...to shoulder-fore. Here, you don't want your horse to be crooked-that is key-but this can teach her that she has to engage before *and after* the change and can help keep her sharp in the hind legs.

I'm not a huge fan of riding flying changes on the centerline or even full quarterlines at this point, because as you do fourth level and the entrance is canter-halt at x, many horses can interpret your half-halts before X as a preparation for a change.

In my experience (I could be wrong), changing late behind is a function of lack of engagement and is often the result of lack of strength, lack of rider's ability to create a quality canter, rider accepting poor responsiveness from the horse, horse being lazy in an otherwise sound horse. Some horses have more jump than others, but I think most horses can produce a flying change. I think all of these scenarios aren't difficult to fix, provided the problem hasn't become some huge big deal to the horse or the rider. Take your time!

J.

My two cents.

[tlw]

Good points all. It's late and I just got back from night check at a show (3d 2 and 3d 3) where we were late behind each time. Other than that good marks and comments. We'll try and distill what you've said and get to work. The good news is that I'm in no hurry for a quick fix. I'd rather get it right so it lasts correctly and not force something that creates a bigger problem. Good night and have a great week-end.

[slc2]

with a dressage type change in a collected canter horses are usually late behind because they are not straight.

[dressagediosa]

There was an article in Dressage Today on late changes, I think it was with Conrad Schumacher. Within the last year, but not recent. Maybe they can get you a back issue?

[FriesianX]

Audited a clinic yesterday with George Williams, and one of the horses got late behind in the changes. Part of the problem was the rider would back off and let the horse get slow behind. But he had some interesting exercises to keep the horse RESPONSIVE to the leg - it wasn't necessarily fixing the slow behind issue with this pair, but here is what they were doing.

Canter, then accross the short diagonal (countercanter), then WALK at E (or B), then immediately into haunches in at the walk. I think the goal was to get his hind end moving off her leg. Another exercise he used - 20 meter canter circle, HALT at the open end, then full-pass out and in at the walk.

My trainer uses an exercise that is useful in keeping the horse straight - all changes occur on a 20 meter circle. That way you KNOW if you get crooked, and there is no track or wall to encourage you or the horse to get slower. Change from counter canter to true canter or change from true canter to counter canter - it really shows if you get crooked or slow behind.

[Pony Fixer]

I have this problem at times, too, although only on the change from L to R.

I agree that fundamentally there is probably an issue with the canter itself--not truly straight, slow behind, not engaged enough, on forehand, etc. That being said, I see a lot of clean changes and not many horses who have the "perfect" canter going into them. My horse is weaker on the L canter which is why I have this issue on this side.

I have also been told (by some BNTs) that he is more of an early in front. So for me, controlling the shoulders more is key, rather than concentrating solely on the haunches. My horse has anticipation issues as well, and knows where in the test the changes come, and since he's already the anxious sort this compounds the problem.

Some exercises we've used include leg yielding to the change. In other words, on L lead canter leg yield to the L and then to the R, to get him to be easily moveable off either leg in the canter. Then practice leg yields to the change (either direction).

Another I use is flexion of the head/neck in both directions on either lead to really free up the shoulder and also to remove any anticipation of change in bend equalling change in lead.

Hope this (and the other replies) helps!

[JRG]

I can honestly say sometimes its me, as a rider. Look at your response time. I have a habit of stifling the hind end with my seat...too much drive(seat bone) and not enough follow through(flow with the hips).

What I do to loosen myself up is to start canter 8 strides, simple change, 7 strides simple change, 6 strides and so forth. By the time I get to two strides before the simple change I have loosened up enough to follow the movement. Just a note all the simple changes are thought the walk. This excersise also helps with tempi's too.

[FriesianX]

I can honestly say sometimes its me, as a rider. Look at your response time. I have a habit of stifling the hind end with my seat...too much drive(seat bone) and not enough follow through(flow with the hips).

What I do to loosen myself up is to start canter 8 strides, simple change, 7 strides simple change, 6 strides and so forth. By the time I get to two strides before the simple change I have loosened up enough to follow the movement. Just a note all the simple changes are thought the walk. This excersise also helps with tempi's too.

Thank you for THAT reminder, that is something I deal with too! Collect, collect, collect, oh yeah, keep it quick and jumping at the same time! And yes, it is often the rider causing a problem that we SEE in the horse with a slow hind end...

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Here's a video on youtube by Jane Savoie on a horse that changes late behind... Was just watching it and saw this thread, hope it's helpful. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCpT_4bHoY0&feature=user

[CapitolDesign]

Ditto here on the possibility that it is lack of engagement behind/overall strength.

I had a chronic late-changer. Took him out of working on changes and focused on above issues -- hill work, transitions, overall strengthening with increased work, etc...

Now, no issue with changes.

[tlw]

I just got back from the second day of our current show and got a 63.9% at 3d 3 with a 6 and 7 on our flying changes! A first for us. I finally decided to ride EVERY step of the test and, guess what, it makes a difference! I read the test and really focused on each separate movement (something I haven't really done before - I rode "holistic" tests generally). So, after the canter half-pass to the rail we do a counter counter and then the change. Actually, it makes sense to straighten the horse before the change and if the canter is a proper, balanced canter the change can come. Well, it did - twice! I know I need to work on this as a long term project but thanks to all who responded saying that the quality of the canter and lack of balance was a big part of the problem (and the solution). I'll work on the various exercises suggested and, hopefully, get this this problem fixed. The good news is that I got my two qualifying scores for the regional championships this week-end so now I can concentrate on my weak points. Again, thanks all. Now it's off to my eventing regional championships in two weeks - thankfully, no flying changes needed!!!!!

[Schiffon]

Yea, what a quick study you are! Congratulations.

[FriesianX]

Congratulations! That is very inspiring!

[austin]

you are my hero. I am in exactly the same place you were before you got it. wish me luck.

I hope you have a great run at the eventing area championships!