So how do YOU deal with opinionated horses?

[JackSprats Mom]

So my wonderful little 5 year is incredibley opinionated (to put it mildly) and so far I have tried to work with him on issues rather then pick a fight. An example of this, yesterday I was working on HI as he issues on the right rein with this (he locks up through his ribcage a little). To help him understand what I was asking, and to encourage him to respond I was tapping (lightly, I mean just tapping!) his haunches. His response to this is to either kick out or buck. Then we get back to work for a while then he will kick out again.

This is his attitude to everything.

Up to this point I will push him so far, then back off (ie try not to get to the point of kicking/bucking). So push a little, reward what I get, push a little, reward what I get. My feeling is to work with him rather then just piss him off as once he's pissed our work goes backwards (mentally), in other words I try and keep it simple and light for him while progressing.

This works, to a degree. But there are times when sometimes you just need to push a horse a little further to progress, if I do he gets mad and kicks out etc.

For those of you who have worked with opinionated horses how do you deal with it?

I have the option of continuing to go slowly and gently which means I can never really get after him, or to just sit down and finally fight it out so that when he opinionated he gets smacked and told to just get on with it. I know that the second option will result in a major battle with him and that he may mentally go backwards a LONG way. But perhaps he needs to go backwards to go forwards?

[angel]

There are only two solutions to your problem: 1) Find the correct way to ask the question; 2) Find the part that is lacking in the training that the horse needs to answer the question correctly. Once you understand the complete training process, there is no need to ever fight. However, I suspect that part of your education in what it takes to train a green horse is missing, and if you are trying to go it alone, it will, indeed, take a long time...perhaps much of a lifetime. Believe me, that I know this the hard way. p.s. Your problem with haunches in right is that your right hind is not stepping forward and under enough and the left shoulder has not moved as far to the left as it should be. Make sure your left shoulder is staying well back, and keep his right hind well under before your ask for the haunches in right.

[merrygoround]

Having worked with a lot of them, I'd say your approach is fine. Take waht you can today, when he/she does well, praise. When they screw up growl, and ask again. Essentially, they want to please. But sometimes takes a little extra patience to work through things.

Yes, you can strong arm it, but you'd better be ready to deal with the results.

Having dealt with anticipators, and their offspring can keep ones brain nimble. :lol: :lol:

[normandy_shores]

I just keep riding.

I know it seems silly, but I just keep riding. Let him kick out etc. I work it till we've made progress then move on. If you cater to their attitudes, what are you accomplishing? Letting him keep that attitude.

I used to put re-rides on auction horses, ex barrel racers, sour and hot horses. Just keep riding. You'll have some particularly difficult rides, but the attitude comes around.

[PiaffeDreams]

This sounds like my PRE gelding. He's been the same way from day 1. He's a dominant horse always in charge (actually beats the crap out of any horse near him in a paddock or field) He was a stallion until nearly 4yrs and he has no idea he's not although his testosterone levels are normal. He simply learned the behavior. I've worked with clinicians who want to fight back with him, smack him, draw rein him yadda yadda and while I'm not adverse to being firm or using a piece of equipment that will help explain something to a horse logically so they can get on with life that's not the case with this guy. I've done my fair share of worry that he simply doesn't want to do the job, but he's anxious to go every day. He happily takes his bridle, loves his grooming and tack up routine, pawing to go while I'm getting my helmet, gloves and last sip of water. And there is no physical issue: his chiro says he's the loosest horse she works on, and my vet can't get over how fluid his joints move when flexed or their range of motion.... saddle fits super..... he's just a very strong character.

I've developed a relationship with him that has on several occasions from several different judges earned us the comments of "lovely harmony between horse and rider" "what a relationship!" and "harmony defined". If only they knew! And thats not to say we don't have moments here and there still.

I mostly try to figure out how to ask him the best way possible and how to make sure no stone is left unturned in our preparation and that means the aid before I ask for something else. If I didn't get the best answer to that aid, I have to clarify for him my expectation. Otherwise, he tests more and more and pretty soon... he thinks he can tell me where to put my leg. ;)

I make it all very black and white with this horse. Either he responded or is "on my aids" to my expectation or he's not. No "well he's better......" It is or it isn't. If its not, I break it down. When I break it down though, I have to keep it all like a game.

Here's a scenario: He wants to fall a little right in my right half-pass and not always stay upright to my left rein.

When I feel the connection going of course I ride a half-halt and in that direction at least if he's going to question my half-halt its the right leg part of it that is his "um maybe not mom" part. I ride the softest "suggesting" close of my right leg into my left rein and if I don't get my expected response I immediately push him straight ahead into a medium trot for a few steps off that right leg. Then, I bring him back into the half-pass... if he's not there we go medium again. And, yes, he used to buck at that first "hey lets go medium!"

I dealt with the buck two ways.
1. Totally disarm it by petting him because he responded. That's all I wanted was a response. If its not the response I wanted, then I just ask again immediately. Bucking is work. He figured that out quickly and doesn't look for a fight like he used to.

2. Once he was more disarmed to it and didn't think the gloves were coming off as soon as he got a little light behind, then my trainer showed me the BEST thing. I just set my whip on his hip and flutter it there. No tap, no smack, just a tickle tickle tickle nagging pesky fly until he came back on the bit. The moment he was back on the aids the whip went quiet and I pet him.

For kicks I took that idea and taught him to really understand that by warming up a couple of days using only the flutter of the whip to put him up to my hand. Once in a working trot any time he'd lose a little of his engagement or reach, I'd just flutter it until he came back. I further made it a habit by standing in halt with my reins in a soft contact with his mouth, but not asking for anything. Then fluttered the whip until I felt him step up into and come to the hand.

So now when I'm working something new and I need to push him a little to go that extra bit and make progress I can push and if he pushes back I can keep the "push" on meaning I don't have to give up my idea about what I'm looking for, but I also don't have to put on my boxing gloves in order to do it.

That is a lot about the attitude you have as you "stay on topic"... its easy for me not to get mad. But, I do see others start to get mad at horses in those situations and it certainly goes downhill from there. When I work with other opinionated sorts the same is true, being able to chuckle at them and keep it all like a civilized discussion even if we are both very certain of our points of view. :cool:

[Sithly]

Generally with an opinionated horse, I just go about my business, come what may. I don't usually pick fights, but I don't avoid them, either. I try to project an air of quiet confidence, and make sure I win any fights that happen to come up (easier said than done :lol:).

Sometimes if I know the horse will be naughty in a certain situation, I'll set them up to misbehave when I'm ready to really get after them for it. But most of the time I've found that being really clear with my aids prevents a fight from starting in the first place.

For a horse that kicks at the whip, make sure you don't stop tapping until you get forward without kicking. If you tap him with the whip, then stop when he kicks, he's just learned that kicking makes you go away. That'll take twice as long to unlearn. Sometimes you need to just give them a big fat whap and ride it out.

That said, be as soft and kind as you can be when he's being good. Try to make a very clear contrast between the soft, sweet you that treats him nicely when he behaves, and the raging b*tch that comes out (briefly) when he's naughty. He'll soon learn which persona he prefers. :D When he learns that the bad attitude doesn't win him any sort of reward, he will eventually give it up.

[lstevenson]

So my wonderful little 5 year is incredibley opinionated (to put it mildly) and so far I have tried to work with him on issues rather then pick a fight. An example of this, yesterday I was working on HI as he issues on the right rein with this (he locks up through his ribcage a little). To help him understand what I was asking, and to encourage him to respond I was tapping (lightly, I mean just tapping!) his haunches. His response to this is to either kick out or buck. Then we get back to work for a while then he will kick out again.


Sometimes it is just because you are sort of putting the horse between a rock and a hard place. IOW you may be giving your horse (unintentionally) conflicting aids.

If your horse is having a hard time with haunches in to the right, and you are making the common mistake of shifting your weight to the left (riders naturally want to sit over whichever leg they are using more strongly) then your weight aid and your leg aid are conflicting. This causes many a horse to become confused/frustrated and rebel.

[Hazelnut]

Uuhh...I have an ocasionally opinionated horse. Most of the time quite agreeable and then out of no where comes, "NO".

So I've had him checked for EVERYTHING...he is physically fine. So I figure he's telling me he's mentally "over it all"

So I ride him through it to let him know he doesn't "have an opinion", then back off to something very easy for him to close out the ride and finish up with a long cool down. I ride the next few rides with an extra long warm up.

[slc2]

most of the time i deal with it by not thinking of it as 'opinionated' or 'obstinate' behavior. i think of it as 'something is missing, what is it? what did i not do'. kicking out when the whip used is really common, and most horses do it from time to time.

if a horse can't do haunches in, he might be too stiff. he might need other suppling work first, leg yield, or if something more basic needed, turn on forehand. he may just not know what to do; it's very natural for a horse to kick out at a whip, it feels like a fly, horses kick at flies, etc. we're actually trying to teach them to do something different. keep tapping til haunches move over. it can be done in hand before under saddle too.

or it may be that where you are tapping him with the whip is the wrong spot for him. he may react better if the whip is used on a different spot on his body. on some horses the standard whip touches them right on the flank, and it tickles. sometimes the rider chokes up on the whip as he rides, so he's holding it more toward the middle; the whip tickles the horse behind the rider's leg, horse kicks.

but not sure why kicking out at the whip is a sign of being 'obstinate'.

kicking out at the whip is good. the horse is reacting. i want him to react when given an aid, i don't care if it's the wrong reaction at first. now he just needs to learn the right reaction. the first important thing is the horse reacts. that's always good.

some horses are very difficult and will stand still and kick out instead of go forward, they don't want to work. it's hard to make a horse want to work when they are like that. most horses are not like that. in most cases there is a training issue that is causing a problem (stiffness, not knowing what should do) and it will improve when the training is addressed.

[meupatdoes]

First, I try to ride in the hortatory subjunctive, not in the imperative. (For non Latin nerds, it is the difference between "Trot," and "Let's trot.")

Secondly, I quietly and calmly insist. No matter how much chatter I am getting from the horse, I just keep quietly asking. So for example if we don't want to cross a stream I just leg, leg, leg, clucking, clucking, "come on, you're ok!", leg, clucking, "come on, bud!", leg, "let's go!" etc.
I don't do this confrontationally or in an escalating manner, I just quietly insist.


The second I get even 1/10th of a response in the right direction, I ease up on my 'challenge'. For example, if a horse was kicking out to the leg, I would give the aid again (and again) until I could put leg on without a negative reaction, and then I would immediately praise, leave it and go on to something else.

So I have had 15 minute conversations about crossing a stream (for example) and I really, really, really, had to insist. However, even though the discussion lasted 15 minutes and we were going forwardbackwardforwardbackwardforwardbackward, I wasn't escalating my aids or shouting (though I did growl impressively when we got light in the front and declared that "We are NOT going to do that!...Come on, you're ok!"). I think the key difference is the one between "maintaining insistence" and between girding one's loins for an epic battle. Approaching it non-confrontationally, even as you insist, can make all the difference. Try to walk the line between insistence and confrontation. Not super helpful, but it's the best I can do. ;)

[goeslikestink]

Sometimes it is just because you are sort of putting the horse between a rock and a hard place. IOW you may be giving your horse (unintentionally) conflicting aids.

If your horse is having a hard time with haunches in to the right, and you are making the common mistake of shifting your weight to the left (riders naturally want to sit over whichever leg they are using more strongly) then your weight aid and your leg aid are conflicting. This causes many a horse to become confused/frustrated and rebel.


ha ha -- so right and i echo this statement as i say in other words dont ride the horse how you write

give as in you give on your strongest side - the horse in turn becomes even and wont advade you

so YOU GIVE -- not the horses faults its a rider error

[Moll]

I can't believe it, but SLC actually wrote something I agree with. :eek:

[merrygoround]

Ah Ah! Naughty! You should be using the inside leg strongly! :)

Using the outside leg, is a common error.

Some how I lost the quote fro lstevensons's post.:(

[lstevenson]

Ah Ah! Naughty! You should be using the inside leg strongly! :)

Using the outside leg, is a common error.

Some how I lost the quote fro lstevensons's post.:(


You think using the outside leg for haunches in is an error? The outside leg should be a definite part of the haunches in aid combined with the other aids of course.

Horses and riders learning haunches in often have this problem. Since the horses often need stronger aids while learning the movement, and the riders tend to incorrectly sit over that outside seatbone when bringing the outside leg back and using it. That was my point.

[Trying]

Very interesting post and answers ,ost useful I have a red-headed Anglo/Trank mare that drives me nuts with her challenging. She is no longer leaping into the air, etc. but just doesn;t respond and knows it. I went to several trainers and their suggestion were to kepp horse on bit and just w/h, t/h etc. and that worked for about three weeks with good submission and we were working well. Then nothong but arguments. Another trainer worked her on the ground with poll flexions and that worked for abotu three weekes. Now I am doign a combinatin and longing when she pushes it over the rim. I am not using enough patience I think and after these posts, I will. she is SOOOO athletic I hate to give up on her. I couldn't sell her for enough to replace her anyway. So good posts!!!!

[Carol O]

Sugar when it's good. Keep riding until it's good, then... sugar.

[Kathy Johnson]

First, I try to ride in the hortatory subjunctive, not in the imperative.
My word! I have a hard enough time trying to ride in the English saddle! But I get your drift.

What is lacking in the relationship is trust. If the horse is opinionated, I think his opinion of his rider is "suspicious." It takes a long time to build trust and there is no way you can beat it into a horse. Trust your gut here. If he fears the whip (and he does), then hitting him harder will make him fear it more.

I would go back to ground work, and desensitize him to the whip. Then I would teach him what it really means (move over, step under, go on). But, be very careful. Although many horses kick out at the whip, it's very dangerous when starting piaffe work, and it would be best to extinguish the behavior now.

[Equa]

I LOVE opinionated horses. Their opinion might differ from yours from time to time, but at least they display a reaction. When such a horse is on your team, and his opinion matches yours, the sky's the limit (well, actually the physical capabilities of the pair of you will set the limit, but at least you've got the important part sorted). And after all, he is entitled to his opinion (to steal a phrase from Steffen Peters).


It doesn't mean you can't insist on something important - and training horses effectively is not all "Whoa Neddy - pleeeease!" in a frightened whisper. Sometimes it is "Do it Now - because I said so!". But with an opinionated horse, you have to choose your battles wisely, because whatever you do, you will teach him something. With a dull horse, you merely risk making him duller.


You have to develop trust by being immensely consistent, and immediately rewarding. So you have to know what you are asking for, and also when the horse has given it to you. So if haunches in (not quite sure what you mean by that - travers? or leg yeild?) isn't working, change to another exercise that does - perhaps LY on a circle, where you can continue to ride forward, and the horse's nose isn't pressed against the wall.