So - we now have to qualify. What about the judges?

[ESG]

So a friend brought up an interesting point, during a recent discussion. Since we, the dressage community, are now being asked to prove our suitability to ride a particular level, is it fair to ask that judges be asked to prove competence in judging that level?

We have all ridden for them. You know who I'm talking about - the "legends". The "grand old men/women" of American dressage. Some of whom are, let's face it, just as old as American dressage. Some hold "R", but most hold "S" or even "O" rankings. But some of those rankings were achieved years ago, with no continuing education or updating of judging criteria to match current rule changes. And some who, I believe, have trouble seeing past X. Absolutely no disrespect intended to anyone currently holding a judge's card. But, ............we all get old. And times change. As do rules, and judging criteria. :winkgrin:

So, my question is - should those who hold current USEF (D) judging cards, be required to reconfirm their skills, since the riders are now being held to a much higher standard? Hardly fair, IMO, to expect riders to attempt to pull qualifying scores, from judges whose skills/knowledge haven't been tested since their rankings were awarded, sometimes decades ago?

Thoughts, please?


Let the games begin. :cool:

Edited to add: that oldschool beat me to the punch. Reply on her thread if you prefer. :cool:

[oldschool]

sorry hon, I was getting antsy.:lol:

[vanillabean]

But- aren't these top judges, however old they may be, the ones creating/pushing for these harder qualifications? And teaching the rest of the judges below them?
You want to retest them on stuff they created?

[ESG]

But- aren't these top judges, however old they may be, the ones creating/pushing for these harder qualifications?

Not all of them.

And teaching the rest of the judges below them?

Nope.

You want to retest them on stuff they created?

Just who do you think "created" this "stuff"?

And yes, I think everyone should be re-tested continually. No matter how old you are, you still have to take a vision test (and sometimes, even a written or driving) when renewing your driver's license. You want to spend your hard earned money trying to qualify for a judge who can't see half your test? I don't. And I don't want anyone to be judging who isn't conversant with the new rules (even that stupid one from the FEI about horses being "happy" :rolleyes: ). Updated rules/judging perspectives require updated skills. I don't think that any good judge will have a problem demonstrating that they know their stuff. :winkgrin:

[Dressage Art]

There is no need to backpedal and beat up the old judges ;) look to the bright future and concentrate on the future "r", "R", "S", "I" and "O" judges. They have to qualify to even enter each program with very strict scores. For example to enter the lowest level of licensed/rated judges aka small "r" judge -

*** One has to have 5 scores of 65%+ on 4th level from several judges.

*** Also 12 recommendation letters from judges and 12 from general dressage public.

*** Also be a graduate with distinction from USDF "L" program.

*** Have a spare $5K to finish the next judge’s education level.

***Have a dedicated, capable scribe that will accompany future judge during the judge’s education. (Yes, judges do have to compensate their scribe’s expenses as well: travel, food and such)

Don’t you think it's a quite high plank to jump?

[jcotton]

There are judge's forums to attend and if they(the judge's) want to attend more often, many of them do. USEF/USDF tracks who has gone to forums that are required to keep their license.
I think the judges that are still competing are our best judges, but unfortunately the horses age, as well and they may not want to start another young horse again, as the judges age, and therefore, we have judges that do not still ride but still are very competent to continue judging as well as those who should not continue to judge.

[swgarasu]

The idea as far as I know, is that riders have to qualify to ride a certain level. It's not requalifying, it's qualify once and you're done.
Judges have to qualify to judge, hence the exams. I don't think they should have to requalify.

[oldschool]

the problem is,...somehow horrible back pain from sitting all day and are on HUGE amounts of meds which are reflected in the afternoon scores, ..some go to "lunch" and come back either much more"happy" or the opposite..also reflected in erratic scoring. Should there some kind of sobriety testing? Senility testing? Some may be retiring but I'm not holding my breath. One Grand Sir of the dressage program {very involved in the L program} fell asleep while I was scribing! Just nodded right off! I had to politely elbow him to wake up so I could write down the score!:eek:

[ideayoda]

The judges DO have to go to judge's forums every three years. That said the 'standard' held there often bears no resemblance to the standard held by articulate leaders like Jaap Pot. Imho those forums should be places to learn how to be more articulate and use correct verbage better rather than places to learn to equivodate.

[ESG]

There is no need to backpedal and beat up the old judges ;) look to the bright future and concentrate on the future "r", "R", "S", "I" and "O" judges. They have to qualify to even enter each program with very strict scores. For example to enter the lowest level of licensed/rated judges aka small "r" judge -

*** One has to have 5 scores of 65%+ on 4th level from several judges.

*** Also 12 recommendation letters from judges and 12 from general dressage public.

*** Also be a graduate with distinction from USDF "L" program.

*** Have a spare $5K to finish the next judge’s education level.

***Have a dedicated, capable scribe that will accompany future judge during the judge’s education. (Yes, judges do have to compensate their scribe’s expenses as well: travel, food and such)

Don’t you think it's a quite high plank to jump?

And if they're still in full possession of all their judging skills, it won't be an issue for them to "jump" it again. ;)

Not that the question is limited to "older" judges, mind you. I don't think it would hurt newer ones to be required to brush up periodically, too. A while back, when a new set of tests came out, I was scribing for a judge I consider to be quite competent. During a 1st level ride, she told me to give an error of test to a competitor who chose to rise to the trot during the lengthenings. I told her no, that the tests had changed to allow the competitors the choice. She was embarassed, but thrilled that I had caught her error. Sorry, but I don't think there's any excuse for that. And perhaps, if this judge had been required to update her skills, it would never have happened.

ideayoda, I'm curious - you say that judges have to go to "forums" every three years. What is discussed in those forums? And what, if any, is the penalty for judges who don't attend?

[Dressage Art]

I personally think that it all comes down to $$$. If you want judges to go to additional training and re-checks - that will cost USEF extra $$$ to make that happen. Are YOU willing to pay exta $$$ for that?

[Dressage Art]

I'm curious - you say that judges have to go to "forums" every three years. What is discussed in those forums? And what, if any, is the penalty for judges who don't attend?
I went to my very first judges forum that is required for judges to attend every 3 years to be able to still have their license. It cost me about $500 for registration + travel, food, hotel, time off from job, and time away from home for 4 days. I almost fell asleep during the TD presentation, they basically READ all the new changes for hours.., (like I can't read it myself - I have to pay $$$ for them to read it to me) they also had TD goodie bag with all of the normal and strange equipment that judges and TDs have to deal during the shows - that was fun and we had a chance to ask all kinds of questions to TD. TDs are such dressage geeks, they know about every rule! :) I liked that part a lot.

Also we went to the live show and passed the mike around and judged out loud the PSG class movement by movement - that portion was presented by Hilda Gurney and she was swift in her corrections for anybody. That was WAY over my head, but Hilda forced even us, an "L" graduates to judge some of the PSG movements - thank gosh my tern came during the "walk" and "mediums" scores. Phew! So just like everybody else in the group of about 30 judges, I ended up judging a couple of times during the live show and a couple of times during the video tapes.

We continued to judge in the classroom from the video tapes. Many judges liked that more, since we can rewind the tape and argue between each other if somebody didn't agree with the score. Also there was no technical problems with mike and we didn’t had to whisper. There was some head budding among some of the judges ;) but majority of them were on the same track.

Also we had Jane Aers presenting the changes to the new dressage rules and questions of what to do in the difficult situations - that was helpful

That said, I think this forum was less informative than “L” program. Even though some of the pages and documents were borrowed form the “L” program!!!!

What I really liked is the supplemental optional training for judges that unfortunately only about a handful judges attended. We had 1 day for equitation class - and judges who finished this training are recommended by USEF to judge equitation classes. Jane Aers held that class. I learned a LOT!!! Also we had 1 more day for materially dressage class with Jane Aers as well. That was great as well. I would gladly rather go to more supplemental classes that concentrate on one aspect of dressage judging rather than to the general dressage judging forum that goes over the same stuff over and over again…but that’s just me ;)

[ideayoda]

The new changes in rules are discussed. The tests from beginning to end (all levels) are covered. This year it was video, but that lacks the three dimensionality of real time (so the good doesnt appear as good nor the lacking as lacking as it really). There is also freestyle, young horse, equitation. The partipants are expected to put in active imput.

What used to be $150 and a hotel room is now $500 (or more, depending up level and add ons) plus the hotel/food.

[ESG]

Thank you. :)

And, when you think that the competitors who are depending on those judges for correct interpretation/application of the rules and standards, are spending more for 1 show than the judges do, once every three years for one symposium, I think the judges have it more than fair. There are such things as professional expenses, after all. And if the requirements went to every year, rather than every three years, it would still be more than fair, IMO.

I guess I just think that what's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander. If riders are being held to a higher standard, it stands to reason that the judges should be cognizant of, and compliant with, those standards,...........and can prove it. And not at the expense of the competitors. ;)

[ideayoda]

What it is that is supposed to change in dressage except for some subtle rule changes???? Balance is balance, development towards collection is development. Perhaps learning different ways to say the same things comes from the clinics, or clarity (for lower level ones). Btw rule exams are (now) also routinely administered as well (the year before the three year attendance). Remember, judges are 'refining their skills' many times a day when they are judging. Gasp, yes I said refining. One learns over the years hopefully to say MANY comments which are mirror like to the riders performance. Not vague ones, but very specific ones. Hopefully those same people are practicing their skills as well as teaching based upon them. The biggest difference between new and older judges? Looking for basic errors, and then smaller one.

The thing the competitor should ask for: comments! They can love or hate the comments, but they need to understand what the judge saw. The numbers are also not as important as the placings.

Remember also that the judge is getting only a very smalll amount per ride from the competitor. Which brings us to the question: should judging be for good housing and food and not be paid? The money the competitor gives going rather toward (free) education (except for travel). Thats the was it was traditionally done, giving back what you are given. (Let the flames begin).

[Dressage Art]

I think it can be helpful for judges to take a 200 questions yearly internet exam - just like a driving school now is held on the web - judges can brush up their rules skills and keep up with new changes thru the web - it will be less expensive for all judges and competitors.

Also, don't forget that most of the judges are actively competing themselves. It does take about 20-30 years to get to be an "S" judge and by that time some of them just not capable physically to compete, but most are paying the same money to ride at the shows just like competitors do ;)

[Dressage Art]

G. if the judges education is paid by the USEF - I think it will be OK if judges will not be paid, but compensated just for their out of pocket expenses. I'm sure there will be people who care about the sport strong enough to volunteer their time. If the judges education is not paid by USEF - forget it, how many people really do have a spare about $30K to spend for their education that will not even bring back their investment?

I said it before, if I had even a close idea how much $$$ I would spend to complete successfully my "L" judging program - I probably would off bought a fancy new saddle for my mare instead ;)

[flshgordon]

Just curious, but how do you view judging different than many professions that require ANNUAL continuing education hours? Sure there are some judges that may only judge a few shows per year but more than just a few that make a pretty good living at it and have a full schedule. Why is it not ok to require them to do some continuing education (on their own dime) like just about every licensed or certified professional is required to do? In my profession we're required to do have 12CEUs and there are varying ways to accomplish that, but in order to keep current, that comes out of my pocket, no one else's. Sure I get to write it off at the end of the year, but I still have to pay for it.

It could be internet sessions, conferences, seminars, clinics, etc. There are lots of ways to make it work, but to me it seems like a GREAT idea. And definitely more often than every 3 years.

[Equibrit]

For example to enter the lowest level of licensed/rated judges aka small "r" judge -

*** One has to have 5 scores of 65%+ on 4th level from several judges.

*** Also 12 recommendation letters from judges and 12 from general dressage public.

*** Also be a graduate with distinction from USDF "L" program.

*** Have a spare $5K to finish the next judge’s education level.

***Have a dedicated, capable scribe that will accompany future judge during the judge’s education. (Yes, judges do have to compensate their scribe’s expenses as well: travel, food and such)

Don’t you think it's a quite high plank to jump?

I would love to know how those "planks" made for good judges?

Interesting website; http://www.judgesnotebook.co.uk/

[ESG]

Also, don't forget that most of the judges are actively competing themselves.

Where are you getting that idea? I'd love to see some statistics on that, because I seriously doubt it. In Region 9, in the last few years, I'd say that most of the judges we've had judging here, are not still competing, at any level. Same in Region 3, when I was there.

It does take about 20-30 years to get to be an "S" judge and by that time some of them just not capable physically to compete, but most are paying the same money to ride at the shows just like competitors do ;)

Again, exactly where are you getting your information? Getting your "S" rating isn't a matter of years - it's a matter of experience and getting the scores. I think you're a little mixed up here.

[ESG]

I personally think that it all comes down to $$$. If you want judges to go to additional training and re-checks - that will cost USEF extra $$$ to make that happen. Are YOU willing to pay exta $$$ for that?

No, it will cost the judges extra $$$$ for that to happen. Which is probably why nothing like this will happen. :rolleyes:

[Dressage Art]

Where are you getting that idea? I'd love to see some statistics on that, because I seriously doubt it. In Region 9, in the last few years, I'd say that most of the judges we've had judging here, are not still competing, at any level. Same in Region 3, when I was there.

I don't know about other states, but in my own back yard for the local shows judges that I show under like Creeky Routson, Pam Nelson, Hilda Gurney, Mary Grace Davidson, Tracy Lert, Mellissa Creswick, Jennifer Roth, Barbie Green (just to name a few) are all still competing. Sometimes even at the same shows that I show at if they are not judging it. It's really, quite common to see judges show here and I even placed above some on our lucky days :)

Again, exactly where are you getting your information? Getting your "S" rating isn't a matter of years - it's a matter of experience and getting the scores. I think you're a little mixed up here.

As for the quoting the time that it takes to become an "S" - that number is according to the O judge Axel Steiner, one of my "L" instructors and clinicians.

[siegi b.]

Look at it this way..... the judges have had to prove themselves for years already, qualifying for their licenses. The riders have always been able to chose what classes they wanted to compete in - the scores where just the icing on the cake.

So now it's time for the riders to qualify and prove themselves. What's the problem?

[dotneko]

Actually, you are both right - it is a matter of experience
and time. For example, to apply to enter a 'R' testing program.
I needed to be a 'r' judge for four years. During that time I
needed to judge 40 rides at second level test 4 and at least
10 recognized competitions. In addition, you must have at
least 5 scores of 65% at PSG or above and 25 letters of
recommendation from licensed officials. Then you have to
go through the LOC - which may take 3-6 months before
voting/approval. Then the USEF has to offer a program
(I have been on the approved list for 3 years and counting).
Then the program can take up to a year to complete.
While taking time out of your regular life sitting with senior
judges and co-judging (all the while keeping up with your
requirements to retain your 'r' license) - which requires me
to observe senior judges at an average of 6 shows judging
3rd-PSG - mind you, none of this is income producing.
So, I have already been in the judging pipeline ('l' to 'R') for
12 years.
Now to be an S, I need scores at GP, so I also need to be
competing. My scores only count for 8 years, so hurry up -
It really requires a huge amount of planning and weighing
options - do I ride while my horse is capable of achieving the
necessary scores, do I judge to earn an income, do I sit
with a judge to advance my education?
Add to the mix that I have my own facilty where I train and
board because if you add up the 20 days a year I judge, I
earn less than $7000.
Let me state for the record I do not do this for the money.:lol:
Dot

[Equibrit]

But - what insures that you do it well?

[ideayoda]

Is judging a profession??? Hopefully it is NOT. However, judging should represet a lifetime of knowledge and the ability to hold a competitor to a standard.

[ESG]

I don't know about other states, but in my own back yard for the local shows judges that I show under like Creeky Routson, Pam Nelson, Hilda Gurney, Mary Grace Davidson, Tracy Lert, Mellissa Creswick, Jennifer Roth, Barbie Green (just to name a few) are all still competing. Sometimes even at the same shows that I show at if they are not judging it. It's really, quite common to see judges show here and I even placed above some on our lucky days :)

As I said, not in Region 9. Yes, Hilda has come to judge our championships, and I think Tracy Lert came a few years back. MG Davidson is judging at the HDS Summer show in a few weeks' time. Fran Dearing, our lone local "S" judge, still shows here sometimes, but she's usually judging elsewhere. But that's about it for judges who are still competing. Or, at least, they're not competing where they're judging. ;)


As for the quoting the time that it takes to become an "S" - that number is according to the O judge Axel Steiner, one of my "L" instructors and clinicians.

The jury's still out, IMO. :winkgrin:

[Dressage Art]

Then will just have to ask Dotneko and Ideayoda on how long it will take them to get their "S" licence.

PS: look my next show this comming weekend, Creeky Routson an "S" judge is showing in it at 1st level: http://www.denville-kanani.com/mayrider.htm and she judged at the same place back in February. SEE???? I told ya! Slap! You could off had V8! :lol:

PS: PS: ~ for people who do not have TV: it’s a funny line from the new V8 TV commercial

[Dressage Art]

MG Davidson is judging at the HDS Summer show in a few weeks' time.

Mary Grace is I think 75 years old now and still rides every day. She broke her arm last year riding her young horse, was wearing a sleeve. She volunteers a lot in our local dressage community and goes to many educational events. Genuine lady, she helped me with some of my sitting for my "L" program. She has a great vocabulary, especially her further notes at the end of the tests are really thoughtful and each of them is unique to the rider. And that, my friend, is very hard to do!

[Dirigo]

Dressage Art and Dot
Excellent posts!!
I am going through a program right now, and posts like ESG's are burning me up!
Judging is a selfless job, and the only reason for doing it, is for the love of dressage.

The cost, the requirements, the time, and the struggle as a professional, to try to upkeep a show schedule, and a training business, while climbing the judges ladder is no sunday school picknic.

How do we ensure, that we'll be good at it?? We strive to educate our selfs every day!!!.
That said, the "old judges" are amazing in what they see, how quick they think and how incredible their comments are. They amaze me over and over again.
Truely ESG if you ever have a chance to sit with one of the "old ones", do it!
I think it would be a real eye opener for you and it would answer all your questions.

[ESG]

I've my own opinions, thank you, and have yet to read anything to make me deviate from them.

And when did ideayoda get her "S"? Ex-hubby has one, IIRC, but not herself.

ETA - sorry, misread your post.

[Dressage Art]

Dirigo, are you going thru "L" now?

[ESG]

Dressage Art and Dot
Excellent posts!!
I am going through a program right now, and posts like ESG's are burning me up!

Why? Is no one allowed to question a judge's ability once a letter has been bestowed upon him/her? Give me a break. :rolleyes:

Judging is a selfless job, and the only reason for doing it, is for the love of dressage.

Um, yeah.

The cost, the requirements, the time, and the struggle as a professional, to try to upkeep a show schedule, and a training business, while climbing the judges ladder is no sunday school picknic.

So why stress yourself out like that, if it's that difficult? :p

How do we ensure, that we'll be good at it?? We strive to educate our selfs every day!!!.

Well, maybe you do,.....................:winkgrin:

That said, the "old judges" are amazing in what they see, how quick they think and how incredible their comments are. They amaze me over and over again.
Truely ESG if you ever have a chance to sit with one of the "old ones", do it!
I think it would be a real eye opener for you and it would answer all your questions.

Actually, I've sat with quite a few of the "old ones". And that's part of what's fueling my interest in this idea. :winkgrin:

[Dirigo]

Oh boy, you've got a smart answer for everything don't you?
As to stressing out.. if I didn't want to do it , obvioustly I wouldn't right?
To your original question....
"So-we now have to qualify. What about the judges?".... The answer is: they do plenty to qualify!!!!

[ideayoda]

No intention here of ever getting my S, I do not want to judge more than I do even though I had the stuff in order at one point. It costs too much to do so (minimum 10k of traveling plus time away), it takes away from teaching time and personal life, etc. And quite frankly I am probably planning on another one or two circuits and then handing in my license and perhaps going to europe to ride for a year just for fun. I do hope I can ride as long as my mom did which was 87 (she hunted 5 times a week until then), and I love teaching generations of students much more. But I still want to give back a little in the judging, and do some gratis (PC & etc).

I encourage everyone do go to the L programs, learn what judges are looking for, see how quick you think on your feet, and learn the guidelines/rules in depth if you have not already.

[tartanfarm]

I can see points on both sides of this argument. I guess we are asking to punish all judges for a few bad ones BUT what is wrong with a systematic audit. Have the show secretary submit video and score sheet of specific rides for USEF to audit. The rides can come from a numeric basis like a financial audit so the judge has no idea what rides in the show would be turned in. Statistical results could be made available to the public.
If the judge is comfortable in their ability they should have no problem with being accountable. This information would be helpful to riders and show organizers as well.

[ideayoda]

What is going to be audited? Video is very difficult to do for judging, the good loses something when it isnt real time, and the bad is less mediocre. The most important part are the comments, the numbers are often discussable (even or esp at judge forums).

IF people are falling asleep (written for two that have) or one which reads a book or dont keep up or dont put comments, complain to the management. I have stopped riding in a test and halted in front of the judge (at E) who wasnt paying attention and waited until he looked up from his courting his writer, and then asked if he was ready to continue. There are (were) spry old judges (like van Schiak at 91) and there are old #*$($#& ones. Dont be afraid to go to the TD. But most are very concentrated all over the test (as de Jurenak used to say).

[oldschool]

Well, I wasn't going to mention it, BUT...since Mary Grace Davidson has been mention by other posters by name, let me quote to you my "further remarks" from training level, bestowed upon me , only last year,..."Needs self carriage". Huh?? In training level?? While I have NO Doubt she is a lovely lady, I mean ..come on..And noone has mentioned a more prevalent, than anyone is willing to admit problem, a little bit of the 'ol joy juice at lunch, painmeds, etc... My point is, if I, as a competitor, am going to be judged "worthy" to show at certain levels, I want to make sure I being judged by someone sober and alert. Is that so much to ask?? P.S., I believe it Barbie BREEN not GREEN.:)

[ESG]

Oh boy, you've got a smart answer for everything don't you?

Actually, I have a lot more questions than answers,.........which is why I started this thread. ;)

As to stressing out.. if I didn't want to do it , obvioustly I wouldn't right?

So one would think. So, why be so defensive about what a burden it is, then?

To your original question....
"So-we now have to qualify. What about the judges?".... The answer is: they do plenty to qualify!!!!

Yes, but how long ago? Read the OP again, and you'll understand my question. :cool:

[ToN Farm]

Becoming a judge under the current requirements and criteria is, imo, a selfless job.

However, I wonder how some of the S's out there got their rating. Some of them are currently showing, but it's pretty obvious they would never meet the current criteria to become an S, or even an R, for that matter.

There are probably lots of R's that wouldn't meet today's criteria. Galopp, have you shown recognized PSG?

[Dirigo]

Dressage art I'm in the "r" program, finishing in August.

I agree that the requirements didn't used to be what they are now, but when I see Judges like Lois Yukins, Marilyn Heath, Cara Witham, Linda Zang, Anne Gribbons... (and the list could go on and on), I dont' care if the requirements wheren't at tough back then, These people have over time become MASTERS at what they do, and I hope to be that good one day!!

[ideayoda]

Many times, even won fei derbys!

[ESG]

How long ago, yoda?

[ideayoda]

About when earth was being created.....LOL.

[ESG]

But your judging credentials are still being updated every three years, right?

[ESG]

Umm,.........................yoda? Have you left the building? I'd like an answer to my question.

[Dune]

Wait a minute, ESG, I don't think any rule has gone through it's still in the planning stages, right?:confused:

[ESG]

Well, according to ideayoda, judges are already required to update their skills every three years. I was just asking if she'd done so.:)

[Dressage Art]

EVERY judge credentials are updated every 3 years during the judges clinics that all licensed judges are required to attend. If judge doesn't attend the judge’s clinic every 3 years - they can not renew their judge’s license and thus can not judge.

PS: Your tone is really hostile, so I'm not surprised that Yoda is not answering to you - why bother?

[jcotton]

ESG, check your facts before making blanket statements of all judges in that come to Region to judge are not active riders & competitors. I know that Sandi Chohany still competes, Debbie Riehl-Rodriquez still competes, Jeannie McDonald still competes, Sandy Hotz...... to name a few of the judges that judge in region 9, that are not residents of Region 9. Lois Heyerdahl still rides & trains horses, not sure about competing.

And when they(judges) start working on their "S" or higher, it takes away from their own showing time as well as training time because of the amount of time that is required to sit with other "S" judges as well as getting their own hours in for their "R".

[ideayoda]

In order to keep the judge's licenses you must do a rule test every three years, and go to a judge's forum (at least) every three years. So, you have a year w/o anything. And for the instructor certification you must do 'continueing ed' every year now.

[ESG]

ESG, check your facts before making blanket statements of all judges in that come to Region to judge are not active riders & competitors.

Relax, j. I said most. And I stand by that.

[ESG]

EVERY judge credentials are updated every 3 years during the judges clinics that all licensed judges are required to attend. If judge doesn't attend the judge’s clinic every 3 years - they can not renew their judge’s license and thus can not judge.

Thank you. Now, I'd still like to know if ideayoda has her credentials updated.

PS: Your tone is really hostile, so I'm not surprised that Yoda is not answering to you - why bother?

Oh, so asking a question is hostile? Get a grip on yourself, honey. :rolleyes:

[ideayoda]

Yes, you cannot renew your license unless you do them regularly and this year was my 'circulation' and I did the whole three days (as usual), not just the first part. I also did the equitation stuff (a seperate clinic)/CH's young horse clinic/and sport horse judging (when they are available) as well as most of the USDF meeting sympoisums (ie Balkenhol/etc). Does that help? Even did the opposite side and did some of the judging theory presentations like doing the 'commentary from the judges' at Devon (when I lived there).

[Dressage Art]

Dressage Art and Dot
Excellent posts!!
I am going through a program right now, and posts like ESG's are burning me up!
Judging is a selfless job, and the only reason for doing it, is for the love of dressage.

The cost, the requirements, the time, and the struggle as a professional, to try to upkeep a show schedule, and a training business, while climbing the judges ladder is no sunday school picknic.

Dirigo, I hear you and feel the same about judge's ladder. I'm not a Pro, I'm an AA and dressage is FUN for me now, thus I don't want it to become "work".

Some people, will never appreciate how difficult, time consuming and expensive the judges education is. There will be always somebody who will question judges no matter what and see only negative in them. Some people tend to bunch all judges in one big pile and for whatever reason think that they are all the same... there always will be people who want judges to do more and spend more money on education, on showing on owning better horses, on going to better and bigger shows and so on. Yet the same people are not willing to do the same. May be they are just "takers" and not "givers" in life? I don't know,.. but what I know, that if you are getting burned up by responses like ESG posts - it might be difficult to survive as a judge. A thankless job, you have to do it for yourself and for the love of HORSES, not people with big mouths. Also for the respect of your peers, b/c we do know how hard you will work to get where you are trying to get and we'll support you in your journey.

[Dressage Art]

Oh, so asking a question is hostile? Get a grip on yourself, honey. :rolleyes:No, you are not hostile at all :lol:

[ESG]

Yes, you cannot renew your license unless you do them regularly and this year was my 'circulation' and I did the whole three days (as usual), not just the first part. I also did the equitation stuff (a seperate clinic)/CH's young horse clinic/and sport horse judging (when they are available) as well as most of the USDF meeting sympoisums (ie Balkenhol/etc). Does that help? Even did the opposite side and did some of the judging theory presentations like doing the 'commentary from the judges' at Devon (when I lived there).

Ah, I see. Do you have to take separate tests to do sport horse judging? I've always been curious about how one qualifies for that.

[ESG]

No, you are not hostile at all :lol:

Nope - you ain't seen hostile. You haven't even seen annoyed. :cool:

[ideayoda]

Attend seperate clinics for sport horse breeding, same (coming) for equitation classes (started seperately, this year(?)) as well as young horse (fei) stuff.

[ESG]

But do you have to have at least an "L" before you're allowed to attend these other clinics?

[Dressage Art]

But do you have to have at least an "L" before you're allowed to attend these other clinics?
yes.

[ideayoda]

And imho that is very unfortunate, if you pay $$ you should be able to go (be a silent auditor) and learn. (That is a change from times past).

But DA, people CAN do the L judge course (to watch) right?????

[Dressage Art]

And imho that is very unfortunate, if you pay $$ you should be able to go (be a silent auditor) and learn. (That is a change from times past).
They did change it for whatever reason, you are correct.

But DA, people CAN do the L judge course (to watch) right?????
Yes, for audit fee of $25-50 per day.

[Capriole]

To keep your judging license, you must judge a minimum number of shows (I believe 4 in 2 years? not many), attend a judge's forum every 3 years, and pass a test (open book, done at home) every 3 years. No ongoing riding or showing requirements. Judges cannot be "fired" other than if they fail to meet these requirements.

There was a brief period of time when people were accepted into the S program who had never shown GP because there was a shortage of S judges. Perhaps this is the time when ideayoda had "her stuff in order," since she has never shown GP?

[dsgshowmom]

There was a brief period of time when people were accepted into the S program who had never shown GP because there was a shortage of S judges. Perhaps this is the time when ideayoda had "her stuff in order," since she has never shown GP?


You know, I don't know ideayoda from boo....... BUT I will state this....

There is an O judge that judges many horse shows, in this current year, who has never shown above 3rd level himself. He is fairly famous.

It gets many people pissed because this seems unjust. But, I wouldn't ding ideayoda for her judging.

He is grandfathered in, and I think most people would be shocked if they found out who it was.


PS thats why I think dressage is a farse. Why compete under someone who has not had to compete at that level themselves?

[Capriole]

I know exactly who you are talking about. He wouldn't be accepted into the program today. It's unfortunate that there are a number of judges like this (even in the FEI), but I suppose all USEF/FEI can do is improve things going forward.

Although I actually think the gentleman in question has a good eye. ;)

[ideayoda]

You are right, there was a year (?) where everyone was uprated to S if they had been R judges for a certain period of time and tested (I think, dont remember when 75?? or so...before my time judging).

O judges are appointed by the FN, not uprated automatically. And there are three (male) judges who did not show at that level (two are dead). Many from other countries have not. That does not mean they do not train at that level or teach at that level.

....had the fulfillments needed except the going to shadow judge enough (did about 3 show shadowing the S list..you had to call to find out who were acceptable...it wasnt everyone), and decided that required too much $/intrigue/time away from kids for that period in my life (and still is to $$ for me personally)....and I had to ask was it worth it? Is that what I wanted to spend my time doing?

Personally, I think I will only do one (or two) more cycles, and then spend more time with family, new job, traveling (and perhaps a year in France).

Good luck to those who do go through, spend the huge amounts of time and effort, and that are more willing to work their way up and contribute the $$ needed to progress, and still try to ride. I know there are a lot of good people (multiple Olympic team members, and another who was a coach) who were turned down from judging years ago because they did not have the time to go through the courses (and who were willing to be tested otherwise).

There are even people who never even bother to show, but enjoy their horses and training them progressively. With the cost of gas and showing, perhaps that will be a trend. In any case, It's hot/cold/and plain difficult to keep focus and a fire for wanting to give back when judging, romantic it is not.

Good luck to people like DA at the beginning of the journey. For others who want to help the sport, apply and see what happens in your personal journeys.

[dsgshowmom]

I know exactly who you are talking about. He wouldn't be accepted into the program today. It's unfortunate that there are a number of judges like this (even in the FEI), but I suppose all USEF/FEI can do is improve things going forward.

Although I actually think the gentleman in question has a good eye. ;)


He does have a good eye, but it stings harder (if he judges hard) when you know that fact.


I don't have anything against him either, he seems to be a good person.

[ideayoda]

He is also one of seven fei judges to come out of von Neindorfs, along with alot of olympic longlisted competitors.

[dsgshowmom]

Good luck to those who do go through, spend the huge amounts of time and effort, and that are more willing to work their way up and contribute the $$ needed to progress, and still try to ride. I know there are a lot of good people (multiple Olympic team members, and another who was a coach) who were turned down from judging years ago because they did not have the time to go through the courses (and who were willing to be tested otherwise).


ideayoda, I know exactly who you are talking about..... so I can feel your pain and you can feel *my* pain exactly.

I hate to talk about these issues on COTH, but... what other venues would we have?

I think we are all sitting on a generation of (upper level) judges who feel
entitled to do their judging because they founded dressage in this country. I can give explicit examples of other judges who give yahoo remarks and scores who are supposed "experts!".

THEN!!! and THEN!! There was a judge a few months (?) ago from Germany that came to Wellington who frankly blasted everybody, whether they deserved it or not, and gave them such low scores. He had to get his I or something. It was awful. :(

The judging system needs revamping from the FEI down, The USEF takes directives from the FEI. That generation is over baby!

[ToN Farm]

He is grandfathered in, and I think most people would be shocked if they found out who it was.With so few O's, it isn't hard to guess who it is. I'm not at all surprised. I can accept that someone can become a good judge without having ever ridden a given level. I cannot understand how a person can teach what they have never done.

[Dune]

Wait a minute, ESG, I don't think any rule has gone through it's still in the planning stages, right?:confused:

Well, according to ideayoda, judges are already required to update their skills every three years. I was just asking if she'd done so.:)

Still hasn't answered my question, ESG. This whole thread is based on the premise that the rule for rider qualification has been instituted, which has not happened....YET....right??? Let's save picking on the judges for another thread or at least answer my query first. :winkgrin::lol:

[ESG]

Actually, Dune, I think that whether or not the rider rule goes through, we need more stringent criteria when it comes to judges' qualifications/certifications. The "O" judge everyone's referring to is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Does that answer your question?

[ESG]

He is also one of seven fei judges to come out of von Neindorfs, along with alot of olympic longlisted competitors.

Whose skills are old, and apparently never proven in competition. Who was, if I am accurately informed, at least partially responsible for the "cluster (*&^" (another judge's words, not mine) of 2nd level test 4, which boasts of having only four fewer judged movements than the GP.

Nice. :rolleyes:

[afastarabian]

Since we, the dressage community, are now being asked to prove our suitability to ride a particular level,



Would someone please explain this to me? Is there a new rule that I missed? My instructor retired from competition so I am on my own for finding out new rules.

[SGray]

$500 per day x 2 days x 52 weeks per year -- definately above poverty level but not exactly raking it in and not enough to support horses

travel to/from the show requires one or more days

if they are coaches/instructors then they miss their most productive days for teaching - where they likely would make much more $s

no -- I don't think the judges are in it for the $$s

[Dressage Art]

$500 per day x 2 days x 52 weeks per year -- definately above poverty level but not exactly raking it in and not enough to support horses

But most of the judges judge only handful of times per year, to give riders a choice of different judges. Our local shows try to have different judges on every show. So it's more like 5 weekends per year, not 52 ;)

[SGray]

agreed DA -- just trying to point out that even if you could judge every weekend that you would not be earning your living that way (assuming that you must support house and horse)

[Dune]

Actually, Dune, I think that whether or not the rider rule goes through, we need more stringent criteria when it comes to judges' qualifications/certifications. The "O" judge everyone's referring to is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Does that answer your question?

Yes. :p But the title of your thread may be confusing to some, it should include that little word.."if". :yes::D

[Dune]

Would someone please explain this to me? Is there a new rule that I missed? My instructor retired from competition so I am on my own for finding out new rules.

No, there is not a new rule, they are simply in the "thinking about it" stages....see...ESG, you are confusing the newbies. :winkgrin::lol:

[ESG]

Sorry. I'm confused myself, a lot of the time. :winkgrin:

[oldschool]

Off topic, I'm sure, but, was Neindorff the guy that comitted suicide in California?? I hope not, correct me if I'm wrong.

[tm]

No. That was Dietrich Von Hopffgarten. But he too was a student of Von Neindorff.

[oldschool]

Thanks, in the back of my brain somewhere, I knew there was some kind of connection.

[slc2]

i'm not worried about most of the judges.