qualification process;how about the judge?

[oldschool]

Okay, here we go, First let me say that most judges are competent, want to do their job, etc.. But, as a friend and I were discussing, there are more than a few judges, well past their prime, grandfathered in, you might call it, and also, some with known medical conditions that require pain meds, some with 3 martini lunch syndrome, there's also senility, dozing off during a ride, answering the cell phone during a ride, etc.. I have scribed for these, don't bother asking who..It's irrelevant. My question is this..Are these the people who will decide if I'm qualified to show at the next level? Sure, we can choose the judge we want and only show under them, but some of us in the boonies don't have much of a choice. When a judge gives a difference of 10% to 20% difference from a.m. to p.m. on the same horse and level with no discernable change in quality, something's up. Or the "Santa Claus" judge who gives good scores so they get asked back more? That "dumbs down" the american rider resulting in the opposite effect of what the powers-that- be are trying to achieve. Again, i reiterate that MOST judges are professional, but with a sagging economy,I see more and more judges, in the future, needing the extra dough, and handing out 70%'s like candy to keep the job.

[atlatl]

Besides the obvious don't show under them, which you've already stated, another option is to be more involved with the show committee or organization hosting the show to influence the judge selection.

If you're in an area where recognized shows are few and far between, it seems a worthwhile investment to ensure the best possible selection of a judge.

[ToN Farm]

Sure, we can choose the judge we want and only show under them, but some of us in the boonies don't have much of a choice. You don't have to be up in the boonies to have that problem. Just about every show I want to attend schedules one of two local judges. And yes, both are santa types. I think that the USDF should limit the number of times a judge can be hired within their own locale.....say within 100 miles.

[Carol Ames]

Have you discussed this with the TD? I do know that there was a situation involving alcohol at lunch during a show in Maryland; which, the Td wrote about in the report; and the show and officials involved were ins some way sanctioned;:yes:

[jcotton]

As far as repetitious use a particular judge, it is should be the judge's responsiblity to say no. I don't know if there is a USEF/USDF rule on use of the same judge for consecutive years more than 2 years.
I have a friend who judges, after she has judged at a particular show or organization for two years consecutively she will not judge for a third year straight. She will lay out a year from them and then if asked back she will judge.

I think high fluff judges will continue to be high fluff judges (those that give high scores for not so good riding) and the true honest ones will stay true and honest for the improvement of dressage in the US. I want to show for the true honest ones to know where my training needs improving.

And there is a need for consistent, new judges to come along that are honest but not brutal to replace the old core of judges that are getting on in years (physically or mentally). Sad but true we all are aging, I hope to stay physically fit and mentally sharp as many of the older judges are and have the wisdom to know when to quit on a high note and
not be told when to quit.

[Sandy M]

I'm not ready to show my newbie yet, but one thing I find may be a problem is that the judge at whose barn I board does seem to do quite a few breed (my horse's breed) shows in the area. I cannot show under this judge, since I board with her. Don't understand that - I do NOT train with her (in fact, she is an amateur). But that's what they told me. From what I've seen, most of the breed shows only have one judge, so I can't request to be scheduled under a hypothetical "2nd judge." Not relevant to OP, but it just suddenly struck me. Hmmm.... guess, unless I'm lucky, it'll be open shows only.

[Capriole]

I think that the USDF should limit the number of times a judge can be hired within their own locale.....say within 100 miles.
And by the same show management. Don't bring Santa Claus and Mrs. Claus back year after year after year ...

[Dressage Art]

After I went thru a first step of a basic dressage judging and witnessed myself what a vastly different backgrounds judges have - I'm honestly surprised that judges can even come close to an agreement in scores.

Each and one of them seem to judge thru a quite different "color glasses". Some judge every movement based first on the horse's gaits, others judge every movement based first on the rider's seat, others want impulsion first and foremost, others can't stand a sloppy geo, others hate BTV, others hate even slightly above the bit - some judges just plainly contradict each other.

During an “L” dressage judge’s exam, instructors dragged us thru the hot coals, if you even twitch and slightly unsure in yourself - you are history. So it seems that they preselect strongly opinionated candidates who can stand their own ground and do not bulge even under an extreme pressure.

Well, put the different backgrounds + strong opinions together and you can see my amusement how ANY judges can come to an agreement in scores. Seriously, my advice is to ride under as many different judges as you can and try to look at the BIG picture.

[Dressage Art]

I cannot show under this judge, since I board with her. Don't understand that - I do NOT train with her (in fact, she is an amateur). But that's what they told me.The rules are very tough in US and USEF tries VERY hard to prevent ANY conflicts of interests. Since your judge is benefiting from you financially - aka getting money from board from you, there is a possible conflict of interests, since this judge might not want to upset you as her boarder by giving you low scores. Also some AA barn owners charge "a board" that includes training or instruction as well ;) Thus that rule.

It's not like that in Europe though, but judges also judge and ride at the same shows there as well.

[oldschool]

What i am trying to convey, albeit a bit muddled, is..why should riders have to "qualify" when we spend our hard earned $${only sometimes} on a show with a judge who is either obsolete, impaired, got a bone to pick ,etc.,..? Dressage is such a subjective sport, and with the withering economy, not many of us can afford to "campaign". Until judges undergo drug testing and skill evaluation,{cold day in hell on that I'm sure}, why do we, the bread and butter of the sport, have to undergo such scrutiny? And "Santa Claus" judges? There's no way to keep that trend in check. It's the dumbing down of dressage in order to give qualifying scores and keep coming back!! So, the whole process is ill conceived.

[ShotenStar]

.... Until judges undergo ... skill evaluation.....

This is very do-able ... there are industry standards and procedures for teaching and measuring consistency in 'subjective' evaluations. Companies do it for all types of work, from evaluation performance of customer reps to evaluating instructors. USDF and USEF could be major leaders in horse sports if they were to adopt some of these tools and techniques for training and evaluating officials.

*star*

[atr]

I think you'll find that it is changing. A lot of the old guard Santa judges ARE retiring. The up and coming judge's programs are well subscribed and not easy to complete succesfully. The USDF is working very hard to make the judge's training program work. It's actually something they are doing rather well and that (gasp) European countries are watching as somethng of a potential role model.

But these things take time.

Of course, one thing you could do is to start on the path of becoming a judge yourself...

[Janet]

And by the same show management. Don't bring Santa Claus and Mrs. Claus back year after year after year ... That is already in the rules.

[Capriole]

That is already in the rules.
Can you tell me where, please? The only restriction I could find was not more than 1 show in a 125-mile radius in 20 days, which is pretty minimal.

[freestyle2music]

The rules are very tough in US and USEF tries VERY hard to prevent ANY conflicts of interests. Since your judge is benefiting from you financially - aka getting money from board from you, there is a possible conflict of interests, since this judge might not want to upset you as her boarder by giving you low scores. Also some AA barn owners charge "a board" that includes training or instruction as well ;) Thus that rule.

It's not like that in Europe though, but judges also judge and ride at the same shows there as well.

ABSOLUTELY NONSENS :confused:

[Dressage Art]

Oh Theo, you are as usual very elegant in your conversations.

[Janet]

Can you tell me where, please? The only restriction I could find was not more than 1 show in a 125-mile radius in 20 days, which is pretty minimal. I take it back. The "two consecutive years" or "two consecutive competitions" restrictions is for TDs and Stewards. I thought it was judges too, but it isn't. Maybe it should be (at least in disciplines where there are enough judges).

[slc2]

Word gets around. The judges who sleep or get drunk usually don't keep getting judging jobs.

I never found dressage judges to be all that inconsistent, with each one having a different pet peeve and scores all that inconsistent. a few have pet peeves and score in a wierd way. That's life. i think most of them are pretty good.

And I think that a lot of the 'grandfathered in' judges are really struggling these days. There are just more and more people out there who are really strong and the ones who don't know their stuff just can't compete with them.