What's up with the negativity?

[Glimmerglass]

All I am seeing these days on this forum which used to be a positive community with postings is one negative thread and/or remark after another. What gives?

Sure this forum sees an upswing with the TC and even a bit towards the Saratoga meet and then Breeders' Cup day. With it comes passion for one favorite or another. Yet otherwise we've always been rather civil on any subject - even when discussing the dark topics which obviously do exist and the few posters that I know do not outright ignore. Rather we've seemingly as an unwritten rule refused to wallow in a constant state of moaning with each post or thread about the woes of everything. I don't live where there is a dark cloud hanging over me daily and neither is there for racing.

We could talk until the end of time of neglected horses, et al. But that isn't about the racing of horses. We could talk about the practices of one trainer in particular but the industry is greater then one man or woman trainer. We could constantly dwell on the subject of one race but the rich legacy of racing is chock full of thousands upon thousands of races.

Everything and anything in this world can be improved. From people's private lives, to government, to environmental issues, to the ever diminishing lack of maners, the rude nature of one generation over another, the forced tollerance of profanity in every day life, the influx of violence as acceptable daily life, et al.

Horse racing is no more immune to such evolutions and changes, good or bad, that then any other part of life, sport, business, hobby, or recreation.

I get rather tired when people drift onto this forum, with an agenda-based need to point out X injury, or add Y link to an article citing abuse at some track god only knows where, or why suddenly as a the self appointed czar of racing that the following must be done to fix it all.

I'm all in favor of dialogue but the death by a thousand cuts - and I don't mean images on tv - but rather the snarky "I'm just saying" types of observatiobns (made with blinders) really sours people.

Add meaningful comments, have fun and do contribute but above all else just think twice before you post!

Cheers.

[DLee]

Maybe it's carried over from the eventing forum. :confused::(

[Twilight]

I am so glad you posted that. I was thinking exactly the same. I don't post on this forum that often - although I do lurk- and I have always enjoyed it because it was free of negativity.

[Larksmom]

we needed that. I try to be informed, and have a historical perspective, and enjoy this forum tremendously. Sometimes, I write replies, that make no sense, and delete them if after another read, they seem too snarky.
I think with the flurry over Eight Belles, and all the deaths in eventing just this year, people who do not know either sport are giving voice. After watching both 'specials' on Saturday, what will actually be acomplished? I had the tube on all day Saturday, and sadly didn't actually 'watch' most of the races. Back to watching 'thru my fingers' or the replay. I think when we get closer to the belmont, things will uptick again

[DickHertz]

All I am seeing these days on this forum which used to be a positive community with postings is one negative thread and/or remark after another. What gives?

Sure this forum sees an upswing with the TC and even a bit towards the Saratoga meet and then Breeders' Cup day. With it comes passion for one favorite or another. Yet otherwise we've always been rather civil on any subject - even when discussing the dark topics which obviously do exist and the few posters that I know do not outright ignore. Rather we've seemingly as an unwritten rule refused to wallow in a constant state of moaning with each post or thread about the woes of everything. I don't live where there is a dark cloud hanging over me daily and neither is there for racing.

We could talk until the end of time of neglected horses, et al. But that isn't about the racing of horses. We could talk about the practices of one trainer in particular but the industry is greater then one man or woman trainer. We could constantly dwell on the subject of one race but the rich legacy of racing is chock full of thousands upon thousands of races.

Everything and anything in this world can be improved. From people's private lives, to government, to environmental issues, to the ever diminishing lack of maners, the rude nature of one generation over another, the forced tollerance of profanity in every day life, the influx of violence as acceptable daily life, et al.

Horse racing is no more immune to such evolutions and changes, good or bad, that then any other part of life, sport, business, hobby, or recreation.

I get rather tired when people drift onto this forum, with an agenda-based need to point out X injury, or add Y link to an article citing abuse at some track god only knows where, or why suddenly as a the self appointed czar of racing that the following must be done to fix it all.

I'm all in favor of dialogue but the death by a thousand cuts - and I don't mean images on tv - but rather the snarky "I'm just saying" types of observatiobns (made with blinders) really sours people.

Add meaningful comments, have fun and do contribute but above all else just think twice before you post!

Cheers.

Well, the sport is dying if you haven't noticed. Typically, when things aren't going well in an genre there tends to be discussion on how to fix it. Burying your head in the sand and wanting everything to be a merry happy place is your right to do so.

[lauriep]

And there is precisely what Glimmer is talking about. Thanks, DICK, for the example/reminder we all needed.

[bobbybobby]

well said glimmer....i think we need to make dick, king of the drama club.there is a positive to every thing.....enjoy your horses people do not be jealous of others......

[VirginiaBred]

And there is precisely what Glimmer is talking about. Thanks, DICK, for the example/reminder we all needed.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

(Great post, Glimmerglass.)

[JHUshoer20]

Well, the sport is dying if you haven't noticed. Typically, when things aren't going well in an genre there tends to be discussion on how to fix it. Burying your head in the sand and wanting everything to be a merry happy place is your right to do so.
Hey guy are you always so cheerful?:confused:

Crying out loud I haven't seen you post one upbeat thing. Maybe some prozac or therapy might be in order?:yes:

Give us a break already!
George

[Texarkana]

Well, the sport is dying if you haven't noticed. Typically, when things aren't going well in an genre there tends to be discussion on how to fix it. Burying your head in the sand and wanting everything to be a merry happy place is your right to do so.

With all due respect, the sport has been "dying" for decades. I hardly think that's an excuse for the sudden influx of negativity. Nor do I think anyone is suddenly going to fix it via a COTH thread. :lol:

I don't think any of us our burying our heads in the sand. We would just rather focus on the positive in our chosen sport rather than rehashing the negative aspects repeatedly.

And, while I always enjoy new voices and opinions on this forum... I personally become rather offended when folks who don't haven't the faintest familiarity with racing come here proposing they know better than those who make a livelihood of the sport. As someone in the industry, doesn't that bother you?

[johnnysauntie]

I wrote this article (http://opinions.bloodhorse.com/article/37652.htm) that ran in the BloodHorse a year ago.

Not that I'm any great clairvoyant (the writing is on the wall and I can read) much of what I feared - e.g. HSUS and PETA engagement and continued fan attrition - is happening.

Between the slaughter issue here in IL (a plant reopened, and then it was outlawed) and the Barbaro episode, I took a long, hard look at myself and what had been my favorite sport. That drove me to get into OTTB retirement and was how I got involved with Wood End (see sig.) I remain ambivalent - I am excited about BB's triple crown chances (will this be the year!?!?!) but at the same time, have trouble resolving the disposal of used up racing and breeding stock. Where business interests meet animal interests is always an uncomfortable place.

Basically, I really love the good and really hate the bad. I'm chipping away at the problems I can influence, and am hoping that the leaders of the sport, as fragmented as they are, will give me a reason to regain my confidence and pleasure in watching those magnificent horses run.

[moonriverfarm]

The screen name of the Ned Negative person well, says it all. If mine hurt I'd be grumpy too.

[Dispatcher]

I think a lot of it has to do with those posters who usually post regularly on the other forums. Boy oh boy, everything is an argument for a lot of them! But, of course, they call it a discussion . Everything from name calling to telling people to get off the board. Very unpleasant

Maybe it's just the heat of the moment with all that's going on with horse sports right now.

[Barnfairy]

The screen name of the Ned Negative person well, says it all. If mine hurt I'd be grumpy too.Seriously, guys, cut him some slack. He's in a tough spot what with that penicillin allergy and all.

As for me? Well, I've been pretty punchy ever since my wand broke.

I'm having one heck of a time trying to replace it. Anybody have a Fairy Supply Outlet in their area?

[rcloisonne]

I'm having one heck of a time trying to replace it. Anybody have a Fairy Supply Outlet in their area?
There used to be one near Brown University but they closed. I now have to resort to ordering mine on-line :lol:

http://willowrootwands.com/

[Barnfairy]

There used to be one near Brown University but they closed. I now have to resort to ordering mine on-line :lol:

http://willowrootwands.com/

"Last a lifetime" they say. Hmm. 'Might have to give them a try.

A well meaning friend got me this for Christmas: Glittery star wand (http://www.smartpakequine.com/images/product/magic_wand.jpg)

I'm finding it works exceptionally well for getting my OTTBs to go really really fast, but for cleaning stalls?

Not so much. :no:

[J Swan]

I usually just lurk - I enjoy racing - but don't have the in-depth knowledge that y'all do. I do learn a lot, though.

Mostly - I just enjoy racing. Sorry if I get drawn into those posts about animal rights - I see the posts and just can't help responding.

Mr. JSwan heard me screaming go Big Brown Go - and he said if I enjoy it so much - he'd try and finagle time so he could go to a race so he could enjoy it with me.

I'm not one who is drawn to racing because of the slots. :D And I'm lucky to be able to attend fabulous point to points - love those timber horses! Doug Fout does seem to be having a run of bad luck - but I'm sure that will change soon!

[Barnfairy]

A well meaning friend got me this for Christmas: Glittery star wand (http://www.smartpakequine.com/images/product/magic_wand.jpg)

I'm finding it works exceptionally well for getting my OTTBs to go really really fast...

Oh, and by really really fast, I'm talking like 9 second furlong fast.

I don't even have to touch them with it -- just show it to them.

Magic.

:winkgrin:

[Mao]

I'm surprised you are surprised - given the enormous attention given to the death of Eight Belles - before Barbaro has really faded from public memory - and on the heels of the Rolex deaths.

COTH is a huge, multi-discipline bulletin board. And one of the few places a knowledgeable Racing forum is readily accessible to wide range of horse people. And obviously, many are upset, confused or out-right angry about these high-profile deaths.

So, despite the negativity, I hope - rather than closing ranks - the informed people in this forum continue to answer questions and provide intelligent insight and discussion into the good, the bad and the ugly of horse-racing.

As a public service to the sport of kings. :)

[Maythehorsebewithme]

Regarding the negativity, that is why I usually lurk-afraid to post and get flamed.
However, I have noticed that in a tough year in which Big Brown's TC quest seems like one of the brightest moments, some people seem to be going out of their way to knock the horse. Maybe it is because they don't like his connections (owner and/or trainer.) Comments have been made about his quality, i.e., "He's no Secretariat," "He's only the best of a bad bunch." Can't we just enjoy him for what he is?

[merrygoround]

Well, the sport is dying if you haven't noticed. Typically, when things aren't going well in an genre there tends to be discussion on how to fix it. Burying your head in the sand and wanting everything to be a merry happy place is your right to do so.

Oh my gosh, give this guy a ticket to charm school, and then a course in remedial reading.

I think racing started to slide in the 50's, and has been sliding since.

There are only so many disposable dollars left, and many other sources of glamour.

But that does not mean that we Neanderthals can't enjoy and exchange civil uncaustic comments? :)

[EMWalker]

For me personally, no, I'm not a racing person but I AM a very informed horse person. I love to learn and discuss all aspects of horses.

Instead of getting jumped on for positing negative issues, I would really prefer to hear what people are actually planning on doing the help put the sport back in a positive light.

I didn't post the "Real Sports" thread to be Mrs. Negative but this is what the GENERAL PUBLIC saw on their television! And racing needs to change public opinion because they are the sport that is most often viewed by non-horsey people.

I commend the Eventers for finally deciding to meet to try to make some changes. They see a problem with their sport and they are now taking active steps to improve it before the sport really does die.

I just returned from Lexington - possibly the most beautiful place on earth. I took the time out of a busy show schedule to visit race horse farms and Keenland. I support the racing industry, but for the welfare of the thousands of babies born every year and frolicing in those pastures, for the thousands of HORSES, things need to change. We posts our opinions on here in hopes that if enough of us make noise, change WILL happen.

[SleepyFox]

I don't think anyone is trying to stick their head in the sand, but I will admit the seemingly constant negativity is difficult to take when it's your business and passion that's under fire. To me, what is frustrating, is when someone who does have knowledge to share is just ignored in favor of finger pointing.

We in racing DO need to know what the general public thinks - we're not very good about that. But, at the same time, we can't allow the armchair quarterbacks to call all the plays.

So, for me, at least, if someone is going to bring up a negative subject, that's fine, but at least LISTEN when someone presents the other side. Because - and this is becoming my mantra - it's easy to talk about this stuff, but when you really see both sides of the issue, it becomes apparent it is a lot more complicated than it appears at first light.

So, how about Big Brown? :D

[miss_critic]

I don't think anybody is going out of their way to knock BB. Some of us are just analyzing what we are seeing. We all want another super horse but some of us aren't convinced we've seen it and the prospect of BB retiring if he wins isn't exciting me. For those of us that watch horse racing outside of mainstream network tv might be a little more realistic. Or, maybe the past 30 years have jaded us :)
But don't get me wrong, I'll be cheering if he wins.

[TKR]

I'm thrilled for Big Brown and think he's the real deal and a good thing for racing. However, I don't have a problem with the negative stuff coming out -- it needs to be and should be addressed. It's appalling, regardless of the excuses or rationalizations, that a large percent of those lovely foals coming from those fabulous farms and selling for enormous prices won't see their 4th birthday. That bothers me and should bother anyone else who loves horses and racing. Of course, there are many that aren't born into rarified circumstances that suffer the same fate and it's no less tragic. That gives pause and should -- the problems should be identified, recognized and addressed. Sweeping them under the table and dwelling on just the good stuff doesn't evoke any changes. I don't have or know the answers, but just saying folks are negative when it comes up and brushing it aside doesn't help either. Usually problems like this are only solved when there are extremists involved such as PETA, to get things into a balance. JMHO
PennyG

[DickHertz]

Oh my gosh, give this guy a ticket to charm school, and then a course in remedial reading.

I think racing started to slide in the 50's, and has been sliding since.

There are only so many disposable dollars left, and many other sources of glamour.

But that does not mean that we Neanderthals can't enjoy and exchange civil uncaustic comments? :)

Not really.

In 1975, the TV rating was the same as what the AFC or NFC Championship game (or American Idol) does today. The Derby posted double digit ratings until 1990 and has never reached that pleateau since. Today's ratings are on par with US Open Golf. The ratings actually have gone up a little and down a little since the mid 90's, but the reality is they ratings are slipping compared to the 70's when racing wasn't quite "dying". Should I have said "racing's dead"?

I, too, am in the business and talk to horseman. Many simply don't care - especially the horseman at racinos. Furthermore, the racetrack management really doesn't care about the public. Does anyone see ads for promotions at the track either on TV, Radio, or in the newspaper? I don't even think most tracks have an advertising budget (other than signs at the track !!!).

I just think the industry is not going in the right direction at all. Are any tracks - I'm asking because I don't know - having a forum with horseman to discuss breakdowns in light of the Eight Belles incident which was seen by millions? Do racetracks know that incident will put a dent in their handle? Do the racetracks care, if they already have slots? Maybe some tracks are, but I don't see it anywhere. The issues that are around today - from toe grabs to surface to the whip to drug abuse to jockey drug abuse - has been around for decades and nobody in the industry seems motivated to change anything. That is my frustration and why I responded the way I did. I just don't see any positives with racing and it's longterm outlook. Sure, slots will provide a boon...but that's financial in nature (err a bandaid), nothing that will solve the sports problems in 2020 or 2030. I'm sorry if I can't be positive about racing. Yes, I do wonder why I'm involved in the sport other than I do love racing and am very passionate about it.

[Twilight]

Sorry, but if you are so passionate about it, then be part of the solution.

[DickHertz]

Sorry, but if you are so passionate about it, then be part of the solution.

I've written just about every member of the PA Horse Racing commission + Mark McDermott, Paul Jenkins, Gary Luderitz, Sal Sinatra, Rob Marella. One person responded - thanks for the suggestion though.

[wendy]

loving racing and loving horses seem to be diametrically opposed viewpoints these days.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

loving racing and loving horses seem to be diametrically opposed viewpoints these days.

Hardly.

[cloudyandcallie]

I don't mind the negativity, I learn new things every day and don't think it is bad. what I do mind are the personal attacks when people can others stupid and uneducated and all. Every one can have his/her own beliefs and opinions, but as one woman PMed me, it's the ones who chase you down and PM you and get personal in their attacks.
so be negative, fight and argue, but don't get personal.
and we can all learn about racing and eventing and horse care in the process.

[cloudyandcallie]

and I think Dick Herz is right. or is it Hertz?
I've been loving racing since I saw Native Dancer run in the Derby, and over all these years had 2 OTTB mares thrown in with my other horses............so what do I know?

[Texarkana]

loving racing and loving horses seem to be diametrically opposed viewpoints these days.

Completely untrue. I don't understand why the general public insists on holding that impression. :confused:

[Jessi P]

Glimmer great post. It gets very frustrating sometimes to read the forums.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. So is taking someone's word as the gospel instead of finding out the truth for yourself. The busier I am in my personal life, the less time I spend on here being frustrated, and the happier I am. But I do love to talk horses, the BB is convenient and I love some of the posters like friends.

My favorite place lately has been the sporthorse breeding forums...... heck I have a chestnut sabeeeennooo filly that has a uterus I must fill so that someday the foal will be slaughtered before it's 4th birthday. :lol::lol::lol: Heck no, she won last out and was 2nd, 3rd and 4th in her last 4 starts. I was seriously going to breed her to a Sec A welsh this spring, thank goodness I didnt!

[On the Farm]

It's appalling, regardless of the excuses or rationalizations, that a large percent of those lovely foals coming from those fabulous farms and selling for enormous prices won't see their 4th birthday.
PennyG

This line is a good illustration of why trying to have a meaningful discussion on racing's problems is practically fruitless. Unless someone is privy to some research unknown to the rest of us, how can such a ludicrous statement be presented here as some sort of 'fact?' How much is a "large percent?" Do you have knowledge as to why these horses supposedly aren't living to their fourth birthday? Or is this just a statement that was thrown out there because it sounds good? From my own experience of the horses (both client and in house) who were lost before their fourth birthday, three were to EPM, one to botulism, one to colic, one fractured a leg during transportation, and one to catastrophic breakdown during a race. Most of those causes of death could happen to any horse, not just a thoroughbred racer.

Discussing hard facts, research, and their various interpretations is the proper way to make positive changes. Throwing out criticisms based on nothing but "I think..." leads to nothing but more anymosity and divisiveness.

That being said, I was fortunate enough to attend the Preakness (all expenses paid!!) and even though the horse I was pulling for didn't fare well, I had a GREAT time. One has to be an optimist to be in racing.

[Bluey]

I don't mind the negativity, I learn new things every day and don't think it is bad. what I do mind are the personal attacks when people can others stupid and uneducated and all. Every one can have his/her own beliefs and opinions, but as one woman PMed me, it's the ones who chase you down and PM you and get personal in their attacks.
so be negative, fight and argue, but don't get personal.
and we can all learn about racing and eventing and horse care in the process.

If you try to say that things are taken out of proportion, that they really are not all bad, you get told you are wearing rose colored glasses, even when you, as someone here did, try to explain that for all the horses raced, very few break down.
People don't seem to have much interest in other than the drama and to paint all with it.

Y'all just keep on trucking, enjoy the horses and do your best to improve what you do where there may be a better way to do things.
There is much good in racing that doesn't need defending from any other than the extreme animal rights followers and those are a lost cause.:yes:

[SEPowell]

Discussing hard facts, research, and their various interpretations is the proper way to make positive changes.

This is so true, and actually racing is approaching its problems very systematically and carefully. For anyone who is truly intrested in what the racing industry is doing to address issues in soundness go to The Bloodhorse or Thoroughbred Times or the Jockey Club web site and track the activities of Racing's Medication and Testing Consortium. You'll see that tb racing is very concerned about its horses and working hard to create the best possible conditions for future training.

It takes much more energy to respond to circumstances creatively and positively, and it's worth it because the stage is then set for positive results.

I'd like to challenge everyone who responds negatively to racing but claims to love it to look at the issues again and figure out how you can have a positive impact. After a year, look back and see where it has taken you.

[TKR]

I don't have any research facts or figures to support that many of the TB foals born don't reach their 4th birthday, but it certainly stands to reason. They are mass produced to race and between the breakdowns and those that don't race well or use up their conditions, etc., where in God's name do you think they all go? The rescues can only take on what their finances will bear and the OTTB buyers can't possibly make up the difference. Unless they are very well bred and raced well, the bigger farms certainly don't want them. I think one can surmise that quite a few of these horses don't reach their 4th birthday as racing is built more on the young ones. I find it interesting you find my comments irritating or find fault with someone making such a comment. Like so many others, you are more interested in protecting your interests in racing and accepting the losses or however they are disposed. I find it quite interesting at how this is rationalized and accepted and the apathy for these horses due to self-interests. No wonder I prefer my animals' company over people for the most part! Yeah, there are plenty, regardless of the percent or number, that never reach their 4th birthday and it IS a tragedy and unacceptable! Condemn me or my comments -- that doesn't change how tawdry the whole industry has become and now that it's "out of the closet" get used to people condemning it until it cleans up.

PennyG

[caffeinated]

But if you don't have actual numbers to back it up, it just sounds sensationalist.

Many of us find that suspect because of our experience either in racing or around it. Breeding doesn't just happen on big fancy farms- plenty of horses who didn't do anything on the track end up in breeding programs too. And lots of them are sold if they don't do well or go on to breeding. And the breakdown rate is actually fairly low (it needs to be lower, not arguing that, but it hardly comprises a huge number of horses from each year's crop, either).

I think if you want to make that kind of a statement, one would need to really run the numbers- find out how many foals were born five years ago, how many of those are racing, how many are being bred. And then look at those being sold outside of racing, though I have no idea how you'd really get good #s on that.

[I'm EBO]

The US sends 100,000 (appx) horses to slaughter each year. I've read that 15 to 20% are Thoroughbreds (15,000 to 20,000). They are the second largest group sent to slaughter. (The largest group is comprised of quarter horse "types".) All the tbs are not youngsters; many are broodmares, and a few are low-fertility stallions.

[witherbee]

Penny G (TKR), you just admitted how irresponsible your own comments were about racehorses not living past their 4 yr old birthdays. 15 to 20% are TBs to slaughter, and not all of these come from the racing industry. I hate that ANY horse go to slaughter, but I have sold MANY TBs off the farm and the track and never sent one of ours to slaughter. They were from weanlings to 9 year olds and ALL found great homes (see here for just some of them: http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/wtryan/Sold%20horses/ ).

I think it's the tone of the posts and the condemnation of all owners trainers that I find so insulting. Especially if I have a horse advertised and someone shows up to "rescue" it. My horses are NOT rescues and I would put any horse of mine side by side with the so-called "rescuer's" horse and I bet mine are more well-fed, fit and well-behaved than theirs. I totally respect real rescuers and real horsemen/women, but some of these people with no knowledge of racing, TBs or even adequate horsemanship skills deeply offend me when they start preaching and covering us all with the same dirty blanket. Sorry to vent, but I have no problem with trying to improve things and looking for ways to improve the safety and responsibility for these equine athletes and friends, but please, take a look at what HAS and IS being done and build on that. Why do none of these people who supposedly care so much about racehorses never do any research with the Jockey Club, the Thoroughbred Times, the Bloodhorse or any of the state organizations like the FTBOA etc to see what charities exist that could use help or new ideas and to see what research is being done and what rules are in the process of being changed or looked at? There ARE thoroughbred retirement funds and facilities that are funded in part by racing, there ARE committees and discussions about safer racing surfaces, there IS a lot of talk going on about expecting too much too soon of young TBs (the leading consigner, Niall Brennan has changed the way he trains for the 2 year old sales and many are calling for big changes to the times expected etc - it was in the TB Times). You hear more and more people calling for going back to the classic distances and breeding for more soundness and for the tougher, old fashioned TB.

I also want to see changes, and I understand that sometimes it takes outside pressure to get things to move along faster and that can be painful, but I think these folks would have better results if they looked at what is already being done and didn't bash the whole sport. I totally agree that race owners and trainers need to take responsibility for finding good homes for these horses or humanely euthanizing them (as a last resort), so I do hope that discussion continues and the pressure is kept on the industry to improve that, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater IMO.

There sure are plenty of QH farms and backyard barns that send horses to slaughter or leave them starving (we see that WAY too much here in FL - lots of Arabs and grade horses) or abandon them.

[Jessi P]

In my barn at the track I have 2 6 yos, one 4 yo, and one 7 yo. Almost claimed an 8 yo the other day.

Winners of the Mnr races on this past Tuesday were:

Race Age
1 8
2 5
3 4
4 4
5 3
6 4
7 8
8 5
9 7
10 5


Buy a racing form or a program and look at the ages of horses that are actually racing in real life - not somewhere imaginary - and you will see that your statements about not racing past their 4th b day is ludicrous. DO SOME RESEARCH.

It is possible that the public (non horseracing) eye is skewed to the upper echelons of racing, where the fastest 3 yo horses contest for the ultimate prize, the Triple Crown, and also the Breeders Cup, with its 2 yo divisions. At that level of competition it is understandable that when racehorses are going that fast, as 2 and 3 yos, they are going to get hurt. The REALITY is that those races comprise perhaps 10-15% of racing as a whole. Many horses here never even run til their 3 or 4 yo year. Hell the other day I saw a 7 yo first time starter. Check out the ages of horses that are racing every day and you will see where your imagingary stats just dont hold water. Do some real research. You can look at all race results every single day at www.equibase.com. They tell you the horse age in the entries section once the odds are posted, and in the results section they give you the age of the winner of each race under the "full charts" option.

[Pronzini]

The problem Witherbee is that although I think your good stories and endings are just as common or more so than the bad ones, they never seem to get told and folks outside the industry whose only contact with racing is TV and boards like this have no real background to draw from. Not to mention there always seems to be a rescue for $$$$ plea going on somewhere and TBs are more traceable than all of those QHs and Arabs that probably outnumber them by multiples.

The CTBA has set up a website page to tell the good stories and I hope they keep coming. I know some of these people and horses personally not to mention many other feel good stories and it sticks in my craw too when everyone connected with racing is described as "tawdry". Especially when I've seen much worse behavior in pet and show homes over the years.

http://www.ctba.com/

[I'm EBO]

I think it's the tone of the posts and the condemnation of all owners trainers that I find so insulting.

Witherbee, as long as the racing industry permits the Dale Bairds and the Ramon Preciados to "train" racehorses, you're going to have condemnation of your sport. Until you guys somehow put some specific, enforceable rules on what trainers and backside workers may and may not do, you're going to have a Michael Vick-type stigma attached. Not all trainers abuse horses and not all football players fight dogs, but the public knows it goes on, and the public does not like it.

Instead of wringing hands about what the public thinks, I wish you guys would take aggressive action to weed out the bad, do something about funding retirement for horses, and publicize the good treatment that the horses receive while they're in training (realizing that standing in a stall 22 hours a day is not perceived as good treatment).

[DickHertz]

Instead of wringing hands about what the public thinks, I wish you guys would take aggressive action to weed out the bad

The problem is that many of the "bad" trainers you speak of are liked by the front side because they fill races. Also, at a lot of tracks the "bad" trainers are on the board of the HBPA. Reforming racing and all the problems that come with it need to be made at the federal govt. level.

[Pronzini]

Witherbee, as long as the racing industry permits the Dale Bairds and the Ramon Preciados to "train" racehorses, you're going to have condemnation of your sport. Until you guys somehow put some specific, enforceable rules on what trainers and backside workers may and may not do, you're going to have a Michael Vick-type stigma attached. Not all trainers abuse horses and not all football players fight dogs, but the public knows it goes on, and the public does not like it.

Instead of wringing hands about what the public thinks, I wish you guys would take aggressive action to weed out the bad, do something about funding retirement for horses, and publicize the good treatment that the horses receive while they're in training (realizing that standing in a stall 22 hours a day is not perceived as good treatment).

Of course, I don't have a problem weeding out the bad (however that's defined) but you do understand that jumpers, dressage, eventing, the stock horse sports and on an on all have trainers that shouldn't be training. I'm sure you know that racing doesn't own the patent on that and I'm sure you will go after them just as hard and with as much vigor as you have attacked racing.

As far as staying in the stall for many hours a day, have you been to the LAEC lately? Or the Paddock Riding Club? Or any urban boarding facility? That's what racetracks essentially are--there is no land generally to do the Fair Hill thing. That's just a reality and it certainly isn't confined to racing.

[Calamber]

I have to approach this from a person who has watched, adored and loved the thoroughbred race horse since I first saw Carry Back win the Kentucky Derby. My heroes have been horses, for better or obviously sometimes worse.

That being said, I am surprised that someone would think it "negative" to point out criminal interests who have turned a sport, which for me was never in this country anyway a "sport for kings" meaning only the aristocracy could own and race horses. Yes, there are some who want it to be that way but as an American I live on the dream of one day owning, knowing and loving a champion race horse. I love their spirit of never say die, which unfortunately they so often do.

Constructive criticism is never wrong, unless you like living in the land of lollipops, prozac or whatever your chosen drug of choice is to block out the horrors of what is happening in all aspects of our lives. I for one am so very thankful that I did not see Eight Belles down on the track in her mortal combat with a danger that many have not been willing to see. That brave filly lost her struggle and if I had been a witness I probably would have had to have been sedated by my husband, gasping and crying and screaming against what has happened to my precious horses. There is an institutional disease known as greed that tosses so many aside as mere trash if they do not hold up to the money spent on them and the strain of racing is not within their ability. I daresay that the world is littered with the ruins of heartless, greedy trainers who do not care how many they ruin in their drive to make it to the summit racing. As for who is the enemy, to me it occured when the video gaming cartels got their greedy mitts on the business of horse racing, it had difficulties before but never so absolutely right in the face of the whole world, champion beautiful horses dying right in front of our faces on national TV. Go For Wand, Barbaro, and now the noble Eight Belles, who had never been bested and died trying to do what she loved to do.

The real and ugly disease that is in racing has a collaborative cause 1) the veterinary pharmaceutical companies, who are in the top 10 of corporations that have the highest profit margin in the US 2) the video gaming interests who are not out for the interests of the horses and horse men and women.

Many have had to resort to using the "needle" method of training, some are sick because they have had to resort to that to compete, others are completely ignorant as to what steroids and sophisticated methods of pain control have done to our marvelous animals. I know of snake venom being used, veterinarians who will still nerve the foot to deaden pain, joints that are tapped so it is bone to bone. I have helped in the surgical suites where the damage is seen by the naked eye, and then held the lead rope as one warrior reared and toppled over in his death throes as no more could be done. His name, Forever Joe, and I will always remember him only as a surgical candidate and then his death above me trying to calm him as his life was ended at somewhere between 4 - 6 years old.

I cannot sit by and do nothing and pretend the world is so nice and cozy and warm, and that this is not the end of the racing that I love to be involved in, now I spend my time rescuing when I have the time and money. Otherwise I spend my time writing and talking to those that I pray to God will have the ability to halt this monolith before it is too late. It is already too late for so many who have already fallen, so in their honor and memory I fight on.

[DickHertz]

I I have helped in the surgical suites where the damage is seen by the naked eye, and then held the lead rope as one warrior reared and toppled over in his death throes as no more could be done.

What do you mean by "reared and toppled over"?

[Bluey]

I have to approach this from a person who has watched, adored and loved the thoroughbred race horse since I first saw Carry Back win the Kentucky Derby. My heroes have been horses, for better or obviously sometimes worse.

That being said, I am surprised that someone would think it "negative" to point out criminal interests who have turned a sport, which for me was never in this country anyway a "sport for kings" meaning only the aristocracy could own and race horses. Yes, there are some who want it to be that way but as an American I live on the dream of one day owning, knowing and loving a champion race horse. I love their spirit of never say die, which unfortunately they so often do.

Constructive criticism is never wrong, unless you like living in the land of lollipops, prozac or whatever your chosen drug of choice is to block out the horrors of what is happening in all aspects of our lives. I for one am so very thankful that I did not see Eight Belles down on the track in her mortal combat with a danger that many have not been willing to see. That brave filly lost her struggle and if I had been a witness I probably would have had to have been sedated by my husband, gasping and crying and screaming against what has happened to my precious horses. There is an institutional disease known as greed that tosses so many aside as mere trash if they do not hold up to the money spent on them and the strain of racing is not within their ability. I daresay that the world is littered with the ruins of heartless, greedy trainers who do not care how many they ruin in their drive to make it to the summit racing. As for who is the enemy, to me it occured when the video gaming cartels got their greedy mitts on the business of horse racing, it had difficulties before but never so absolutely right in the face of the whole world, champion beautiful horses dying right in front of our faces on national TV. Go For Wand, Barbaro, and now the noble Eight Belles, who had never been bested and died trying to do what she loved to do.

The real and ugly disease that is in racing has a collaborative cause 1) the veterinary pharmaceutical companies, who are in the top 10 of corporations that have the highest profit margin in the US 2) the video gaming interests who are not out for the interests of the horses and horse men and women.

Many have had to resort to using the "needle" method of training, some are sick because they have had to resort to that to compete, others are completely ignorant as to what steroids and sophisticated methods of pain control have done to our marvelous animals. I know of snake venom being used, veterinarians who will still nerve the foot to deaden pain, joints that are tapped so it is bone to bone. I have helped in the surgical suites where the damage is seen by the naked eye, and then held the lead rope as one warrior reared and toppled over in his death throes as no more could be done. His name, Forever Joe, and I will always remember him only as a surgical candidate and then his death above me trying to calm him as his life was ended at somewhere between 4 - 6 years old.

I cannot sit by and do nothing and pretend the world is so nice and cozy and warm, and that this is not the end of the racing that I love to be involved in, now I spend my time rescuing when I have the time and money. Otherwise I spend my time writing and talking to those that I pray to God will have the ability to halt this monolith before it is too late. It is already too late for so many who have already fallen, so in their honor and memory I fight on.

The question here was:

What's up with the negativity?

My guess is that some see the glass half full, others half empty.

All some see is problems and make mountains of them, as above.
Others don't see problems, keep on keeping on.
Most just keep on trying their best, what else can be asked? :)

[Calamber]

Bluey, and my response is as stated, I am sorry you do not like to think about these things but I suppose you have alot of company in that crowd.

Dick - I mean that is how he reacted to being euthanized, he was not sedated first, as cruel as that may sound, it was his reaction to the euthanol.:(

[DickHertz]

Dick - I mean that is how he reacted to being euthanized, he was not sedated first, as cruel as that may sound, it was his reaction to the euthanol.:(

I know. I was just trying to point out what I posted a few weeks back when several posters (Sannois, HuntrJumpr, Twomandawgs, hudredacres,show pony) all said I was lying when I said that's how they put horses down on some racetracks due to catastrophic breakdown.

[Barnfairy]

Last year I had to euthanize my dear, dear 35 year old Southerly Wind due to complications of Cushings disease. I was with him throughout the whole procedure and witnessed everything my vet did. Despite having been heavily sedated first, my sweet stoic Southerly refused to go down. He stood and stood and stood, until he finally fell over backwards quite awkwardly as he passed from this world.

As unpleasant as that was to watch, I do not regret euthanizing Southerly. It was the right thing to do under the circumstances.

Apologies for the aside. My point is that despite our best laid plans, sometimes the unexpected still occurs. We can't predict how a horse will react during euthanasia any more than we can prevent all horse injuries.

If we could change everything to keep the naysayers happy --hold off racing until the horses are older, breed for stamina, ban all medications, bubble wrap the world-- there would still be injuries and fatalities, because accidents are an unfortunate fact of life.

They just are, as unpopular as that stance is. Like it or not, it is impossible to eliminate the risk of injury or death in this world, on track or off.

'You want to witness a race horse welfare nightmare?- Go ahead. Get your way and ban racing. Watch what happens when hundreds of thousands of young stock and race horses and broodmares and stallions are out of a job. If you think the rescues are overwhelmed now, just think about what would happen then.

And don't come crying to me when your horse activity of choice gets banned next.

[Bluey]

---"'You want to witness a race horse welfare nightmare?- Go ahead. Get your way and ban racing. Watch what happens when hundreds of thousands of young stock and race horses and broodmares and stallions are out of a job. If you think the rescues are overwhelmed now, just think about what would happen then.

And don't come crying to me when your horse activity of choice gets banned next."---

Animal rights supporters will answer to that as "a little pain now, but no more racing (or whatever it is being discussed, at that time it was closing slaughter) abuse ever again".

As for other horse activities then later being banned, that those that don't like racing use their horses for, they were calling those that warned them "alarmists".

[Barnfairy]

As if those who call for an end to racing aren't "alarmists"?

Pfff.

How does one prevent something like this?: Race horse shot (http://www.wcsh6.com/video/news/player.aspx?aid=37159&bw=)

[ASB Stars]

Just a question from someonewho really doesn't know- I see that the numbers for the ages of the one day winners at Mountaineer were posted. I am given to understand that Mountaineer is not necessarily one of the "top echelon" of racetracks. How do the numbers look for Belmont, or a track on par with Belmont? In other words, do people run more older horses longer at the cheaper tracks, or not?

I think that the questions that have been asked, especially in light of Eight Belles, are reasonable- most especially on a BB with as many horse lovers from diverse backgrounds as this one boasts. To the person who asked why we were discussing slaughter on "a Racing BB"...this is ONE section of the BB. And guess what? A bunch of these horses go to slaughter.

I find that the information that the OP shares here is usually really interesting. However, it is uniformly the sunny side of the sport. Even when this BB's beloved hero- Barbaro- was followed on the thread on this section of the Forum, the OP was generally, IMHO, disgusted with the ongoing discussion. However, for many of us here, the horse WAS the story. Not just the race.

Isn't that was this whole BB is about? The story?

[DickHertz]

Last year I had to euthanize my dear, dear 35 year old Southerly Wind due to complications of Cushings disease. I was with him throughout the whole procedure and witnessed everything my vet did. Despite having been heavily sedated first, my sweet stoic Southerly refused to go down. He stood and stood and stood, until he finally fell over backwards quite awkwardly as he passed from this world.

As unpleasant as that was to watch, I do not regret euthanizing Southerly. It was the right thing to do under the circumstances.

Apologies for the aside. My point is that despite our best laid plans, sometimes the unexpected still occurs. We can't predict how a horse will react during euthanasia any more than we can prevent all horse injuries.

If we could change everything to keep the naysayers happy --hold off racing until the horses are older, breed for stamina, ban all medications, bubble wrap the world-- there would still be injuries and fatalities, because accidents are an unfortunate fact of life.

They just are, as unpopular as that stance is. Like it or not, it is impossible to eliminate the risk of injury or death in this world, on track or off.

'You want to witness a race horse welfare nightmare?- Go ahead. Get your way and ban racing. Watch what happens when hundreds of thousands of young stock and race horses and broodmares and stallions are out of a job. If you think the rescues are overwhelmed now, just think about what would happen then.

And don't come crying to me when your horse activity of choice gets banned next.

Sad to hear. I've read that when the flip over from the euthenasia solution, it's a reaction and they have already expired (mentally) and that's the reaction is merely symbolic (nerves / muscles).

[Barnfairy]

Thank you Dick.

Though I strongly believe Southerly had no conscious realization of what was happening as he fell, it was very upsetting for those of us attending.

[DickHertz]

Just a question from someonewho really doesn't know- I see that the numbers for the ages of the one day winners at Mountaineer were posted. I am given to understand that Mountaineer is not necessarily one of the "top echelon" of racetracks. How do the numbers look for Belmont, or a track on par with Belmont? In other words, do people run more older horses longer at the cheaper tracks, or not?

I think that the questions that have been asked, especially in light of Eight Belles, are reasonable- most especially on a BB with as many horse lovers from diverse backgrounds as this one boasts. To the person who asked why we were discussing slaughter on "a Racing BB"...this is ONE section of the BB. And guess what? A bunch of these horses go to slaughter.

I find that the information that the OP shares here is usually really interesting. However, it is uniformly the sunny side of the sport. Even when this BB's beloved hero- Barbaro- was followed on the thread on this section of the Forum, the OP was generally, IMHO, disgusted with the ongoing discussion. However, for many of us here, the horse WAS the story. Not just the race.

Isn't that was this whole BB is about? The story?

In general, cheaper tracks do tend to have older horses running a.) because older horses can still compete at lesser tracks because of more date condition races and b.) when "good" horses get older and less competitive they can still have a fruitful career at a smaller circuit.

Winners yesterday at Belmont Parks (ages)
3
4
4
3
4
4
4
5
3

Tracks like Belmont also have a lot less open claiming races (and maybe 1-2 date cheap claimers per condition book) which tend to attact the older campaigners. So, yeah, a track like Mountaineer will have older campaigners than, say, Belmont Park. Mountaineer isn't a bottom feeder track - it's near the lower middle in terms of racing talent.

[Barnfairy]

Just a question from someonewho really doesn't know- I see that the numbers for the ages of the one day winners at Mountaineer were posted. I am given to understand that Mountaineer is not necessarily one of the "top echelon" of racetracks. How do the numbers look for Belmont, or a track on par with Belmont? In other words, do people run more older horses longer at the cheaper tracks, or not?



ASB Stars (et al), horses' ages are listed in the entries for all to see, so anyone can look at the entries for any track on any given date to get an idea as to what the age spread looks like across the board. :)

Here you go: equibase entries (http://www.equibase.com/static/entry/index.html)

(and to find out who won): equibase results (http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/index.html)

The older horses that are still running do tend to fall down the ranks and end up at mid- to lower level tracks like Mountaineer or Suffolk or the fairs. This is why you see CANTERs working out of Suffolk, Beulah, or Penn National rather than Keeneland or Saratoga, where the horses are either at the beginning of their careers or still running well enough to be competitive there, or elsewhere, rather than be retired.

[Jessi P]

When horses are euthanized they quite commonly go straight up first then down. Its the flight instinct - at least that is what my vet tells me. Quite normal.

ASB I am going to do a bit of research for you and post back in a minute. Bigger tracks like Belmont, Churchill, etc are where many young horses start out, but at they get cheaper they move to cheaper tracks. So the % of younger horses is higher at the top tracks.

Belmont May 21 (today all the races have not yet run so I chose yesterday)
Maiden races are for horses that have never won a race, therefore they are usually younger.

Race Age of winner Type of race
1 3 3 yo NY bred fillies claiming 35-25k
2 4 Maidens 3 yo & up girls 45-40k
3 4 3 yo & up, NW3L (never won 3 races lifetime) $20k cl
4 3 Maiden Special Weights, 3 yo & up NY breds
5 4 Allow/opt claiming NY bred 3 yo & up, girls, SNW2/x
6 4 Allow NW1/X
7 4 3 yo & up, open claiming, girls, $16-14k
8 5 Red Wing Dream Stakes 3 yo & up $75k purse
9 3 Maiden claiming NY breds 3 yos & up $35k claim price

You can look up this info if you are curious - www.equibase.com

Here are the entries for Belmont for today with the horse's ages

http://equibase.com/static/entry/BEL052408USA-EQB.html

Race 1 ages - 6,8,6,4,10,6,4,6,5 Yes, thats a 10 yo.
Race 2 ages - 3,4,5,3,3,3,3,3
Race 3 ages - all 6 are 3 yo fillies - this race is for 3 yo's ONLY
Race 4 ages - 5,5,4,9,5,6,6
Race 5 ages - 3,4,5,4,4,3,3,4,3,4,3,4
Race 6 ages - 5,4,4,9,4,3,5,5,4,4,3,4,3
Race 7 ages - eleven 3 yos, three 4 yos (Maiden Special Weight)
Race 8 ages - 5,4,4,7,4,4
Race 9 ages - 4,5,4,5,5,5,6,5
Race 10 ages - 5,5,4,4,5,5,4,5,4,5,5,5,4

[Jessi P]

Let me add.... when horses get to the point that they cannot compete at a tougher track, they are quite often sold to cheaper tracks where they can compete and do well. So the people who had the $50-100k horses who are no longer racing well are selling them to slightly cheaper tracks, and they get cheaper from there on out. While the horse might have earned $300k in it's lifetime, that doesnt necessarily mean that the person who currently owns it made any money with the horse - its usually the horse's earliest owners who get the majority of earnings, MOST of the time. Not the ones who have the horse at the end of it's career.

[Calamber]

What I do not understand is how somehow one is always accused of being an alarmist or an extremist because there are serious issues being involved and difficult questions asked. Who in their right mind if they know what the damage is that is being done to racing with steroids, major masking of pain,( and that being only the tip of the iceberg), and who claim to love racing, would allow these atrocities to continue because you are worried that racing would be banned? What kind of reasoning is that? The criminal aspect of this, not accidental injuries, and not even getting into how they are euthanized (that is a whole other discussion), the normal risks of racing aside, why would you not want to put an end to those things. Are you so worried that people cannot differentiate between a sport which can certainly use the input of "outside elements" meaning people who would like to see it become more humane, or as humane as possible? I do not mean the PETA fanatics, but if someone who says that they are with that group and still have a good idea, what is wrong with considering that? Do you not think that we as a body of citizens of the United States cannot think outside of labels?

Reminds me of how simple minded people can be pulled so easily into anti or pro this or that. Anti - nuclear, pro-nuclear, anti-abortion, pro-abortion, anti-environmentalist (you know who you are), pro-environmentalists, anti-guns, pro-guns. What in the heck has ever happened to Socratic dialogue? Are we so used to being pulled into one or the other extremist positions that we are just going to stand on the sidelines booing or cheering? This is not the way to grapple with profound problems and certainly not the way to attain profound solutions.

[Barnfairy]

I believe we were discussing the plethora of negative attitudes that have infiltrated this forum.

:winkgrin:

[Bluey]

I believe we were discussing the plethora of negative attitudes that have infiltrated this forum.

:winkgrin:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

"Anti-enviromentalist"?
Never heard that one before.:confused:

[J Swan]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

"Anti-enviromentalist"?
Never heard that one before.:confused:

There the ones who hate nature so much they refuse to breathe the air.

So there aren't many of them; probably why you've never heard the term. ;)


Seriously though - I've never been one for labels. I'm actually pretty moderate - but got pushed into the pro-slaughter camp by none other than Gail Vacuous Vaca. So you can thank her if you want.

[I'm EBO]

Pronzini, you wrote:

". . . I'm sure you will go after them just as hard and with as much vigor as you have attacked racing."

Are you kidding? What I wrote was not an attack, believe me. Also, I do realize that all phases of the horse world seem to have their dark sides, but we're talking about racing here. (I really think the qh futurity crowd is much worse than you guys; probably the worst, with the exception of the Big Lick people who sore their show horses.) And, I do know that space is a problem at some tracks or other training facilities.

However, glimmerglass asked "why all the negativity". I was offering what I said as constructive criticism. I am, after all, a member of a public that is taking a look at racing practices following another televised breakdown. Don't you want to know what the public finds amiss? Or do you want to just rage at PETA and blame them for all your problems?

[Bluey]

Pronzini, you wrote:



Are you kidding? What I wrote was not an attack, believe me. Also, I do realize that all phases of the horse world seem to have their dark sides, but we're talking about racing here. (I really think the qh futurity crowd is much worse than you guys; probably the worst, with the exception of the Big Lick people who sore their show horses.) And, I do know that space is a problem at some tracks or other training facilities.

However, glimmerglass asked "why all the negativity". I was offering what I said as constructive criticism. I am, after all, a member of a public that is taking a look at racing practices following another televised breakdown. Don't you want to know what the public finds amiss? Or do you want to just rage at PETA and blame them for all your problems?

"Constructive criticism"?
For that one needs to know what they are talking about first.;)

Those breakdowns, sad as they are, are ACCIDENTS, if you know what you are talking about.
To put accidents in perspective, you are more apt to get in a car wreck than a horse is to break down in a race.

Too bad that those accidents make such good drama for those that love to critique constructively.:winkgrin:

[ASB Stars]

Like EBO, I don't think it is negativity- I believe that reality has just dropped in for a visit.;)

I had an actual-honest-to-goodness-racehorse-trainer opine that the young jock on Eight Belles should have never thrown the reins at her the way he did after the finish, and it was his opinion that this allowed-- which is not the same as caused-- her to lose her balance, on what Bramledge referred to as "rubbery legs" on the run in. He further stated that he would not allow that guy on one of his horses.

Now, you may agree- you may not. But this is from someone who does this for a living. Peta, IMHO, can stuff the whip deal.

So, in the world of "you just don't know" reality CAN visit. This entire BB is comprised of opinions, and occasionally, of facts. Facts are about what factually happened, and can be quantified. The rest- well, that is what page upon page here is made of.

[solargal]

Like EBO, I don't think it is negativity- I believe that reality has just dropped in for a visit.;)

I had an actual-honest-to-goodness-racehorse-trainer opine that the young jock on Eight Belles should have never thrown the reins at her the way he did after the finish, and it was his opinion that this allowed-- which is not the same as caused-- her to lose her balance, on what Bramledge referred to as "rubbery legs" on the run in. He further stated that he would not allow that guy on one of his horses.

Now, you may agree- you may not. But this is from someone who does this for a living. Peta, IMHO, can stuff the whip deal.

So, in the world of "you just don't know" reality CAN visit. This entire BB is comprised of opinions, and occasionally, of facts. Facts are about what factually happened, and can be quantified. The rest- well, that is what page upon page here is made of.

And I'm sure he is a spectacular trainer. Much better than Larry Jones who continues to ride him. You risk more damage jerking the horse up sharply. He hardly threw her head away.

I dislike how everybody has to criticize, but won't look in the mirror. I'm sure the guys he let's ride his horses are MUCH worse than Gabriel Saez.

There have been constructive comments, questions, and they have been welcomed. But it gets a little old having to comment on some of the ridiculous statements that are being made on this forum.(I.E. All racehorses are drugged!!)

[bobbybobby]

i'mebo....apparently you have poor info like so many other people on this forum.....how dare you say qh futurity people are the worst...they are by far some of the best horsemen in the world...to think a tb trainer is better simply because of the money factor you are way off base...any time a quarter horse trainer changes to tb's they are a success....they know good basic horsemanship....that is missing at the majority of tracks today..

[Pronzini]

There have been constructive comments, questions, and they have been welcomed. But it gets a little old having to comment on some of the ridiculous statements that are being made on this forum.(I.E. All racehorses are drugged!!)

And that's the thing. I'd never discourage anyone who had a sincerely held question. And after all, not every person in the sport is completely defensible and there are people in racing I concede couldn't train ivy up a wall. But it is the unrelenting and sometimes completely ignorant negativity about everything and everyone --on a forum devoted to racing!--that starts wear after awhile.

Unrelenting negativity is just as unbalanced and unrealistic as being a pollyanna IMO.

[ASB Stars]

And I'm sure he is a spectacular trainer. Much better than Larry Jones who continues to ride him. You risk more damage jerking the horse up sharply. He hardly threw her head away.



Unless I miss my guess, Larry is not riding Eight Belles-- and she wasn't a "him". No one--leastof all me--suggested that "jerking a horse up", or any other thing was 'worser', as it were...what the hell are you talking about anyway?

[I'm EBO]

bobbybobby, I "dare" to say that qh futurity people are the worst because I believe that they are. Money has nothing to do with my opinion of the training the reiners, in particular, and the cutters receive at the hands of your "far the best horsemen in the world". Or by "best" horsemen in the world, did you mean they don't fall off very often?

At least the racing tbs only have to run straight ahead; no sliding stops, no reining "patterns", no 100-pounds-overweight guys with big hats, big bellies and bigger spurs giving the horses "cues". No tying their heads to a stirrup for hours on end to get them to "give" to a bit--and all this on an 18-month old horse. Disgusting. Is anyone surprised that so many qhs are "past their prime" at age 8 or 11? Is anyone surprised that they make up the largest number of horses sent to slaughter? Not me.

[solargal]

Unless I miss my guess, Larry is not riding Eight Belles-- and she wasn't a "him". No one--leastof all me--suggested that "jerking a horse up", or any other thing was 'worser', as it were...what the hell are you talking about anyway?


"He is still riding him.(Gabriel Saez)." Your point of that part of the post was that the jockey was somehow to blame. And your friend would never ride him on a horse. Which is a pretty bad insult to a jockey. He pulled up the same as any jockey in the country. What your friend is implying is as bad as Peta's petition.

[Bluey]

bobbybobby, I "dare" to say that qh futurity people are the worst because I believe that they are. Money has nothing to do with my opinion of the training the reiners, in particular, and the cutters receive at the hands of your "far the best horsemen in the world". Or by "best" horsemen in the world, did you mean they don't fall off very often?

At least the racing tbs only have to run straight ahead; no sliding stops, no reining "patterns", no 100-pounds-overweight guys with big hats, big bellies and bigger spurs giving the horses "cues". No tying their heads to a stirrup for hours on end to get them to "give" to a bit--and all this on an 18-month old horse. Disgusting. Is anyone surprised that so many qhs are "past their prime" at age 8 or 11? Is anyone surprised that they make up the largest number of horses sent to slaughter? Not me.

We already know that you don't like the AQHA and the horses it registers.

That is immaterial here, really.;)

Your view of all that is so wrong as to be right down laughable.
Just as if I would say that all the rescues are greedy people using donations for themselves and leaving very little for the horses in their care.
Look how many are being outed lately.:eek:

Tsk, tsk, we should not paint all with the same brush just because some may do wrong.
Your words would be more credible if you were to get off your high horse and get better informed.:yes:

By the way, I have a 12 year old that was World CH reiner at 3, shown until ten and is a great sound ranch horse today and another that won at three at the top also and is still showing today, at 13, sound and happy, as are older siblings.
I know of plenty of over 20 year olds, sound, still showing competitively in cutting and reining.

Just get yourself over to some of those competitions and look around.
You may be surprised at what age of horses you find.

I think that you choose to pick on the wrong group there.:winkgrin:

[USHO]

Oh, and by really really fast, I'm talking like 9 second furlong fast.

I don't even have to touch them with it -- just show it to them.

Magic.

:winkgrin:

wow, is that allowed in the paddock? can I borrow it?

[SleepyFox]

Like EBO, I don't think it is negativity- I believe that reality has just dropped in for a visit.;)

But, that's just the point -so much of what is posted here is NOT based in reality! People are making assumptions left and right and just don't know! So, no, it's not reality. What is coming to visit, parking it's butt on the couch and and cleaning out the fridge isn't reality, it's conjecture.

I had an actual-honest-to-goodness-racehorse-trainer opine that the young jock on Eight Belles should have never thrown the reins at her the way he did after the finish, and it was his opinion that this allowed-- which is not the same as caused-- her to lose her balance, on what Bramledge referred to as "rubbery legs" on the run in. He further stated that he would not allow that guy on one of his horses.

You know, I was talking to a guy the other day who said he wouldn't ride Saez, either. Only this was based on an allowance race at Delaware. My point is, it's easy to talk big and around the racetrack you constantly trainers complaining about jockeys. Don't take it too seriously. My bet is if this guy had the opportunity to put a jockey of Saez's caliber on any of his, he'd jump at it. ;)

[Gestalt]

Well I'm tired of people saying Big Brown is not "worthy" of the Triple Crown. Crazy talk! And for TB's going to slaughter.... at least when they were bred someone had a plan that included quality horses. Have you seen some of the crap people breed? And they post on this site. :eek:

The past few years have been really dismal for me. Seeing several of the horses killed during eventing has driven me away from that sport and I never watch a race live anymore, I wait til it's over and if no horses broke down I watch it later. If there was a chance of seeing horses die each time I go to see jumpers, I wouldn't support them either. There's no reason for animals to be killed just competing. :(

Geez, I was going to be positive but just thinking about Eight Belles and others has me in the dumps again. I need to take up knitting. :sadsmile:

[Artful]

knitting helps:)
What's been stunning to me is the sheer volume of misinformation and misconception, not just from the general public, but from horse owners as well (who I thought would be more knowledgeable)
And that so many of these people are so smugly convinced of their misinformation, that they have no problem telling anyone involved in the TB racing industry exactly "what is wrong" and "how to fix it".
I know nothing about QH futurities, or showing TWHs. I have read about certain issues, but as I have no KNOWLEDGE about it, I would never presume to tell anyone involved in these disciplines how to "fix" their sport.

[Linny]

Unless I miss my guess, Larry is not riding Eight Belles-- and she wasn't a "him". No one--leastof all me--suggested that "jerking a horse up", or any other thing was 'worser', as it were...what the hell are you talking about anyway?

The term "ride him" means Larry Jones is "riding" or "using" Gabe on his horses. Larry saw nothing in Gabe's ride that would make him find fault with the rider or the ride. Eight Belles was the type of filly who seemed to travel best on light contact and Saez didn't use much rein on her. He didn't "pick up her head" on pulling up in any of his prior rides on EB and probably felt no reason to on Derby day.
ASB, you (or the horseman you referenced) implied that it was Saez' allowing EB to gallop on a loose rein that caused her to stumble.
The question then follows "What method do you, or your horseman friend, recommend for pulling up 1000lbs of racehorse with momentum and velocity in his favor? Gabe pulled THIS filly up as he had done before.

As for trainers' opinions about jocks, they are like...well you know what. I've had very good trainers, household name trainers tell me about A list, top tier riders that THEY won't ride either. It's all opinion and often a healthy dose of politics.

[ASB Stars]

ASB, you (or the horseman you referenced) implied that it was Saez' allowing EB to gallop on a loose rein that caused her to stumble.


Thanks for the information- I do want to point out that I said he ALLOWED her- on the "rubbery legs" referenced by Bramledge-- to stumble. I specifically said he had not CAUSED her to do so.

[Calamber]

Bluey you cannot seriously believe that a horse snapping both front ankles is an accident. It might be nice to keep the debate going but this kind of thinking is downright delirious. Have you any clue about the breakdown rate on US tracks? Have you any scientific understanding at all about what steroids do to the bones? If all you want to do is act haughty about your ignorance it certainly is your prerogative but please do a little studying before you put out such a blantantly ignorant statement like that, talk about burying your head in the sand! Wow is all I can say, I guess it is just a "coincidence" that we are having breakdowns on a rather unfortunately regular basis in Grade I races. I realize this does not fit the criteria of discussing the "negativity" angle, so perhaps I should start a thread about why people are so willing to explain away such horrors as these situations are. It is a blessing to have people to talk to about what can be done to correct the obvious problems that the sport of racing has, at least those who want to do the tough job of taking on the pharmaceutical companies and dangerously inept trainers who think it absolutely okay to give any horse steroids for other than therapeutic reasons.

[Bluey]

Bluey you cannot seriously believe that a horse snapping both front ankles is an accident.

Yes, I do and so do many others, some vets too.
Sure, it could have had many underlying reasons, or NONE.
The fact is that YOU don't know, I don't know, WE don't know to say other than it was an accident.

It might be nice to keep the debate going but this kind of thinking is downright delirious. Have you any clue about the breakdown rate on US tracks? Have you any scientific understanding at all about what steroids do to the bones?

Yes, I have "any scientific understanding" of such matters, do you?;)

If all you want to do is act haughty about your ignorance it certainly is your prerogative but please do a little studying before you put out such a blantantly ignorant statement like that, talk about burying your head in the sand!

Getting personal and trying to be insulting doesn't help your point of view any, really.:winkgrin:

Wow is all I can say, I guess it is just a "coincidence" that we are having breakdowns on a rather unfortunately regular basis in Grade I races. I realize this does not fit the criteria of discussing the "negativity" angle, so perhaps I should start a thread about why people are so willing to explain away such horrors as these situations are. It is a blessing to have people to talk to about what can be done to correct the obvious problems that the sport of racing has, at least those who want to do the tough job of taking on the pharmaceutical companies and dangerously inept trainers who think it absolutely okay to give any horse steroids for other than therapeutic reasons.

Getting selfrighteously on a high horse, saying that you are the only one that can see the problems, the only one that knows what they are and that everyone else, including those in the racing industry are ignorant and have their head in the sand IS one opinion and, as you say, it may fall in the "negativity" column.:(

Thanks for your opinion anyway.:)

[SEPowell]

Bluey you cannot seriously believe that a horse snapping both front ankles is an accident.

If you're referring to Eight Belles, check her autopsy report. She was not a victim of joint injection abuse and she didn't receive anabolic steroids; she started that race as a sound drug free racehorse.

You can't lump all breakdowns together to come up with any meaningful and useful information. Sweeping rule changes without appropriate data to support them tend not to have safisfactory effects. It takes time to gather meaningful data and racing is doing that now. Study the work of RMTC and you'll see where they're headed. Careful research is half the challenge, the rest of the challenge is changing the mindset of many racing jurisdictions, many trainers and many owners. You won't change that mindset with inflamatory and overly generalized rhetoric.

It is a blessing to have people to talk to about what can be done to correct the obvious problems that the sport of racing has, at least those who want to do the tough job of taking on the pharmaceutical companies and dangerously inept trainers who think it absolutely okay to give any horse steroids for other than therapeutic reasons.

All joint injections are given for therapeutic reasons , that's exactly the argument of every trainer and vet who use them; the identical argument is used by every trainer and vet who abuse them.

[ravenclaw]

Bluey you cannot seriously believe that a horse snapping both front ankles is an accident. It might be nice to keep the debate going but this kind of thinking is downright delirious. Have you any clue about the breakdown rate on US tracks? Have you any scientific understanding at all about what steroids do to the bones?

#1 - Eight Belles was never given steroids. A lot of trainers give their horses steroids (including Big Brown's trainer). But Larry Jones doesn't.

#2 - Eight Belles didn't snap both her ankles at the same time. From what I heard, one of them broke and in trying to keep from falling down she overloaded the other leg and the other ankle went.

[I'm EBO]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't at least some breeders use steroids to promote growth in their yearlings? IF steroids did contribute to her breakdown, could use in her very young days have been at fault?

This is probably an uber stupid question, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around the rationale for using steroids at all when there's no injury to combat. Like why in the world does Dutrow inject all the horses with W every month?

[LKF]

Dutrow has a big mouth to match his growing ego. He didn't do any of us who are in Thoroughbred racing as a business any favors by blurting out something on national TV. That was a piece of info you "blow-hards" are looking for to elaborate upon and turn into crazy rumors spread across these boards.
I'd like to know how many of you "Chatty-Kathies" are actually in the TB business? I'd like to know which one of you have had a job as a jockey, a trainer, an owner, a bug boy, a groom, a hot walker, an exersize rider?????
I have a feeling that many of you have never set foot on a track, except to sit on your butts once a year to watch the Derby.
Many of you attempt to try to impress the others who come on this forum with your rants when you have no idea of what you're talking about and have NEVER had any life experience with racing. Why do you continue to embarrass yourselves?
My advice to many of you self-proclaimed experts is to get your facts straight, and I mean FACTS. Otherwise keep your mouths shut.

[ASB Stars]

Well, that was warm and fuzzy! ;)

Not for nuthin', but many years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I stood a TB stud for a syndicate, and broke yearlings, as well as as rehabbed horses sent back from the track. The stud was by Nashua, out of a Round Table mare, and he was a tough cookie.

However, I have NEVER set foot on a track. Having seen Ruffian breakdown on TV was enough for me. Listening to Dr. Reed give a lecture about what happened, and what was done about it, some years later confirmed my lack of desire to visit a track.

Still, if you want the publics money, you are going to have to deal with them.The folks here are FAR more educated about the industry than John Q.

So, my advice? Don't waste your time sitting in judgement on these opinions. Oh, and grow up. :winkgrin:

[bobbybobby]

what does godspeed barbaro mean, and how does it fit in this thread ???

[Bluey]

what does godspeed barbaro mean, and how does it fit in this thread ???

I wonder if you are reading someone's signature, not their post?
Several posters like to remember Barbaro by words in their profile, that show in the bottom of all their posts.
The signatures don't have to fit on the threads, they are there all the time.

Seems that some here are getting a little frustrated.;)

[I'm EBO]

Mmm, LKF, if we, the great unwashed non-jockeys, non-trainers, owners, and other vermin, etc. are not supposed to ask questions of you exalted ones, how can we be expected to defend your butts when PETA comes calling?

Ever think of that?

[SleepyFox]

[QUOTE=I'm EBO;3237635]Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't at least some breeders use steroids to promote growth in their yearlings? IF steroids did contribute to her breakdown, could use in her very young days have been at fault?[QUOTE]

A fair question, EBO, but I think you're putting waaayyy too much blame on steroids. I don't know Eight Belle's complete history so I won't speculate on any steroid use as a yearling. But, I will say I really and truly do NOT think that would have caused this accident. And, yes, it WAS an accident.

I'm EBO, as to your second point regarding the "great unwashed"... as far as I'm concerned, ask away - I welcome legitimate questions. But, if I'm going to take the time to answer, I would like to have people actually read and digest what I say. I've seen a lot of situations here where the knowledgable people (and I'm not talking about myself) are ignored in favor of hotheaded comments. I know a couple of folks here are just trying to stir the pot, but others - I think - are well meaning, but just not listening.

These issues are more complex than they appear at first light - if the fix was as easy as it's often presented in BBland, don't you think we'd have done it?

Racing - IMO - does have a problem with the closed door attitude. You see it on the BB when someone asks about becoming an excercise rider or trainer - there are a lot of posts about why you can't or shouldn't. And, even in reality, we generally don't welcome newcomers unless they're waving fistfulls of dollars. I've always thought this was stupid, but recently, I've found myself wanting to close ranks, too - because I'm tired of the attacks and negativity. But then I realize that is a shortsighted viewpoint and I come back here and post like this. ;)

So, ask legitimate questions, but please don't attack us when we respond with the truth if it's not what you want to hear. Fair enough? :)

[Wanderluster]

Glimmer as to why everyone is cranky and contentious I only speak for myself. Age has made me more cynical and far less optimistic, both are character flaws but again I am old and cranky.
If you are wondering why racing does not seem as appealing as other sports that depend on a certain fan base- this seems like a reasonable answer- fans do not have a "hometown hero"
There is little or nothing left in racing that appeals to the average person and the hard core insiders are less than cordial and welcoming. The remaining are left to the spin of sportswriters and PR firms. Hollywood does a better job recruiting horse and racing enthusiasts with movies like Dreamer and Seabiscuit.

[I'm EBO]

SleepyFox, thank you for your reasonable comment on the steroid question--I honestly don't know how long steroids affect a horse. I do know how steroid use affects humans, and that it's usually a big mistake unless used to treat a bonafied injury. Perhaps steroid use is not as detrimental to horses as to human athletes, but I wouldn't think of giving one of my own horses as much as 10ccs of dex unless something was Wrong. I expect that the use of steroids will be controversial until somebody does a definitive study involving hundreds or thousands of tb cadavers.

As to the love/hate relationship between the racing industry and the racing fans: I think it's pretty safe to say that the fans' primary concern (unless they're bettors) is the welfare of the horses. At least that's my first concern. When something happens that illustrates that people in the biz put their horses first, then racing is wonderful. Do you remember when Calvin Borel won the Derby on Street Sense? His joy and his obvious concern for the horse, shown by his trying to cool down SS as he rode to the winners' circle, was so charming and touching. At that moment, racing was wrapped in teflon. People would have walked barefoot through broken glass to shake Calvin's hand, pet the horse and congratulate the trainer.

Lately, though, there've been many, many terrible events and tawdry revelations. Racing doesn't seem so golden when most of what you hear is about breakdowns, and horses being shipped off to slaughter by unscrupulous trainers. The perception is that the industry isn't motivated to cure its own ills, but many fans, those who care most (or only) about the horses, really don't see what a huge undertaking it would be to revamp racing. Herding cats.

However, perhaps the time for self government has passed for the racing industry. There was an article in today's Louisville paper announcing that the US congress will be making a study of racing practices, beginning early in June. I hope good things will come of it.

[Bluey]

---"SleepyFox, thank you for your reasonable comment on the steroid question--I honestly don't know how long steroids affect a horse. I do know how steroid use affects humans, and that it's usually a big mistake unless used to treat a bonafied injury. Perhaps steroid use is not as detrimental to horses as to human athletes, but I wouldn't think of giving one of my own horses as much as 10ccs of dex unless something was Wrong. I expect that the use of steroids will be controversial until somebody does a definitive study involving hundreds or thousands of tb cadavers."---


I think that you may not know that the steroids they are talking giving to horses are not corticosteroids, but anabolic steroids, Equipoise and Winstrol.
The last ones are those the bodies produce to grow with, all bodies.
They are given as a supplementation, to increase growth.
I doubt that the trainer mentioned knows much, if he thinks his vet "gives them to all horses once a month", really, since they are not administered like that.
I expect he was not thinking when he said that or doens't know any better.

Many people raising all kinds of animals give some of those anabolic steroids to their young horses, carefully, to insure that they are growing to their best potential, for what I hear, especially those geared for sales, in many disciplines.
They think it gives those horses an edge in how they look, how mature they are.
Racing, a horse's performance may be enhaced by having that extra edge of intensity and strength such may give.
All that only if used sparingly, as they are intended for, as when a horse has been sick and needs a boost.

Then there are the people that abuse anything and there have been cases of those medications given to show young cattle, which is forbidden.
We only gave Equipoise once to a filly that had been sick, a reaction to the first injectable ivermectin, when it first came out and she almost died.
That shot may have helped her system to get back on track from the set back.
I heard that later they became common use for the young and those in training in several disciplines, not just racing.
As for side effects, as with all, it depends how you use anything.
Just remember, those are ANABOLIC steroids, used to increase the rate of growth, not your regular steroids like cortisones.

As for why racing seems so somber those days, maybe just as with eventing or any other we do with horses, the animal rights many years of questioning every little thing we do with horses is catching up?
There have been accidents and will be accidents in racing as in any other we do in life, but no one will be sitting there, waiting for them and then take potshots at that for months in the press and internet boards.
THAT may be one more reason there seems to be so much negativity.

I believe that, in general, everything in life is getting better, including what we do with our horses, including racing, compared with the way we used to do things.
Do we need to keep improving? Yes, so we do in everything else in life.

[Linny]

I too have no problem answering questions. I think I do my fair share here as well as at the H/J barn where I ride.

I have questions myself about the use of steroids at all ages. I don't know (and I'm not sure if anyone does) the result of their use, long term. Can the do damage to the the reproductive system? I've heard of fillies who upon retirement had a terrible time getting in foal? Was it from steroids? I don't know and very few folks are talking.
When Todd Pletcher, the sports young "golden boy," the leading trainer of the last 5 years was asked if his horses raced in the Derby on steroids he said (I paraphrase) that all his horses used "legal" substances. Steroids are legal in KY so he "could have" used them but isn't talking. He may HAVE to talk when brought before a congressional hearing.

I agree with Sleepy Fox, I hope that when a "racing person" takes time to write a well thought out comment that you read it honestly and with an open mind. Try to learn the context and the history of the sport to a degree that it makes sense.
I know that to horse owners in general, things like claiming horses etc is a little weird. The actual logistics are stranger still. Understnd that people who race in a claiming event are not trying to harm their horses and most hope that even if they get sold, it's to someone who will look after them well. Many trainers will follow former charges, often putting up their own money to get them back later on. I know of 3 in NY who do so regularly.
I agree with Witherbee who tries hard to place horses, that it's all too common to have someone come to look at a racehorse for "outplacement" and have the person refer to themselves as "rescuing" the horse. The horse isn't a "rescue" any more than the former 3'6 hunter who can no longer do the A/0's and is being sold as a 3'0 hunter! He just needs a new job. Most of the horses on the track are NOT in peril. Yes, some are and we need to work on it, but shouting about all OTTB's as rescues doesn't help. It makes racing folks wary of dealing with you!

[abrant]

Still, if you want the publics money, you are going to have to deal with them.The folks here are FAR more educated about the industry than John Q.



Actually, be the Devil's Advocate... I worked at a racetrack and we don't need 'your money'.

I mean, there would be tons of people who would come in every night, make maybe 10 $2 bets, eat a $5 hamburger, and use the bathroom twice and pretend to be some kind of expert. The racetrack makes **no** money off of this person! In fact, they might have lost money on this person. This is why places like Arlington Park charge $6 to get in the door ;)

Meanwhile, there's a guy upstairs who wagers $100k a month on horse racing - we're bringin' him drinks and offerin' him dinner. Trust me.

Racing is financially supported by gambling, and thus the simulcast system that taps into gamblers across the nation.

And more and more, racing isn't even financially supported by their own gamblers, they're supported by shot machines.

What the racing industry needs is public 'support'.

For example, Arlington Park almost went down the tubes - but it was a huge amount of public support that saved it.

Prairie Meadows would have gone down permanently had not the voters approved the casino that brought back horse racing.

So no, once again, it's not all about the money.

[Jessi P]

I do my best to represent FACTS as I know them, and I am always more than willing to help someone learn about horse racing. Heck I think I wrote at least 25% of the Racing 101 thread myself.

I am always happy to answer any racetrack questions but I do not appreciate people with no first hand knowledge spouting opinions as facts. I have always tried to explain things on the track to non racetrackers - why we use lipchains (and no, they arent evil), why we do this or that a certain way - oh gosh, I remember one way back was why racehorses look so thin, we are being cruel to them by not having them pig fat. Well, as I stated at that time, it is cruelty to have an overweight out of condition horse expected to run well carrying all of that extra weight. All of these questions I have answered with politeness and understanding, trying to explain the reasoning behind the "How," not just say "we just DO it this way."

I am always more than happy to share with anyone who desires it any pedigree information on any TB born since 1950 - see, I have this awesome disk.....

I have gone out of my way to find homes for or sell as many horses at Mnr as I can, in order that they have a fair shot at a life after racing. I cant help a truckload headed for Sugarcreek, but I can help them one at a time.

And I agree with Abrant - racing does need public support, not necessarily financial support. The slots have that covered - for the time being.


As a general public service announcement on steroids :

There are 2 kinds of steroids.

Corticosteroids (dex, azium, meticorten, and so on)
Anabolic steroids (Winstrol-V, Equipoise, Testosterone)

Corticosteroids are OFTEN given to equine athletes across all disciplines - I grew up first riding western then in H/J land so I have personal knowledge of this. They are not something unique to TB racehorses. Too much cortisone will suppress the immune system - horses on dex or azium for any length of time usually have coat problems, often either getting fuzzy like a Cushings horse or hair falling out in patches. Frequent injection in a particular joint can cause decalcification of the bone, and degeneration of the joint space itself. I have asked many vets, and have received many opinions, on how many times a joint can be injected with cortisone/derivatives before the joint is compromised. Most will agree that it depends on the horse - some horses can be injected 10-20 times and be fine, others only last 3-4 injections. But you must take into account the multitude of other factors in play here - shoeing, track condition, horse's fitness, and so on.

Anabolic steroids are often given to a horse to increase appetite, layer on muscle, and increase aggression (often helpful in a race, but not for the horse's groom!). These are male hormones, and can often have a lasting effect when given to mares in that they can have a hard time establishing a regular cycle, if any cycle at all after coming off the racetrack. It is counter productive to maintain a horse on steroids for any longer than 6 months, as the horse's bodies arent meant to withstand anabolics for that length of time. Several states are mandating that anabolic steroids are to be FORBIDDEN in a racehorse at any levels, that rule will be countrywide soon enough I believe. The 3 states on board so far banning anabolic steroids are PA, DEL and IND.

[ASB Stars]

I think you might want to re-read your post. Who do you think is in those casinos? And the guy that is betting 100K per month? He is part of John Q. Public. They aren't race horse owners, trainers, etc., they are the folks who show up- or maybe, don't, because of remote betting- and spend their money.

I get the impression you DO want their money.

And it IS about the money. From the breeders, to the trainers, the folks who run the sales, the hot walkers, whoever- no money, no life. Period. You can love it and live it all you want- but if the cash flow dries up- from John Q. buh-bye!

[county]

A race track that doesn't need money? If thats so why do they want casinos? I'd say they need and want money very much without it their dead.

[Albion]

I think you might want to re-read your post. Who do you think is in those casinos? And the guy that is betting 100K per month? He is part of John Q. Public. They aren't race horse owners, trainers, etc., they are the folks who show up- or maybe, don't, because of remote betting- and spend their money.

I get the impression you DO want their money.

And it IS about the money. From the breeders, to the trainers, the folks who run the sales, the hot walkers, whoever- no money, no life. Period. You can love it and live it all you want- but if the cash flow dries up- from John Q. buh-bye!

But the people who go to casinos don't go to watch horse racing, they go to gamble ... at casinos. And the serious bettors I have met are likewise generally not horse people or the fuzzy side of John Q. Public. Betting on race horses just happens to be their preferred way of gambling - as opposed to blackjack or whatever.

I don't think that little old lady who wants to spend her SS check on a one armed bandit necessarily cares if it's located at a track or on an Indian reservation. What difference do breakdowns make to her?

The hysteria I've seen over slots at tracks is usually about the evils of gambling, not 'How can we support this terribly industry that is breaking horses down?'.

[ASB Stars]

Philadephia Park put in a Casino. I am assuming that this is to draw in MORE money. What am I missing here?

Nobody cares WHERE the money comes from- as long is it trickles its way down to the racing industry. However, the industry has been looking for ways to help that flow along....

[Albion]

ASB Stars, my point is that John Q. Public who cares about spending a night on the slot machines doesn't care about breakdowns, horses, the racing industry, etc. It doesn't matter to them what the money is trickling down to. The casino/gambling side of things and the horse side of things are relatively divorced from each other in terms of interest (I've never set foot in a casino, but I have been to tracks that have slots; those of us watching the races & the people in the casinos were there for TOTALLY different purposes).

I think abrant's point was that fans of 'horse racing' or 'horses' are not the ones that are bringing money to the tracks, generally speaking - it's the people who are are gamblers, who frequently aren't interested in the horse aspect at all, never mind the nitty gritty of Lasix, breeding problems, polytrack vs. dirt, steroids, and so on. The people on this board having a conniption are not 'John Q. Public' interested only in wasting money on slots. As long as the little old ladies are still going to the slot machines, it doesn't MATTER if you (general you) say you're never going to set foot on a track - the tracks aren't making money on spectators interested only in horses anyways. Casinos are a mean to an end, not a way to bring more fans to racing.

Unless 'fixing' racing is suddenly going to make you a gambling (casino) fan, for the tracks that have slots etc. it doesn't matter if John Q. approves of the industry or not - as long as they're coming to the casino.

[Linny]

The point of the "don't need their money" is that bettors, BIG bettors support the game. There are also many smaller bettors who contribute to the game. Fans OTOH, who show up or watch on TV without betting may LOVE the sport but they are not contributing in any way to it my sitting and watching.

The slots players are so focused on the shiny buttons and flashing lights that they are oblivious to horses anywhere within a 1000 miles. It sounds obnoxious but if every horse on an evening's card at a "racino" were to explode into flames not a one of the slot players would know or care and they would come right back the next time. Slots are video crack.
The average slot player makes no connection between playing slot at a racino and the ups and downs of racing. Eight Belles' tragedy or steroids in the game or PETA or slaughter mean nothing to them. They don't see themselves as participating in racing.

[I'm EBO]

I agree that gamblers don't give a rip about horses and horse racing, and if they're providing the future, where does that leave those of you who ARE a part of horse racing? If the racing fans hypothetically get so turned off that they never watch another race, will it matter to those of you who race horses? Will the Kentucky Derby be a big deal if the Churchill Downs stadium is empty? Will the TV networks try to drum up more interest in NASCAR if they can't get sponsors for the horse race telecasts? If the romance and glamour and emotion that are a part of horse racing disappear, what will you do?

Would PETA and the rest of us stop worrying about the treatment of the horses? Or would you still suffer the scrutiny that instant communication provides?

[JHUshoer20]

Would PETA and the rest of us stop worrying about the treatment of the horses? Or would you still suffer the scrutiny that instant communication provides?

PETA! Now there's something to be negative about!

Give this one a look:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY
George

[Linny]

A word in defense of the horseplayer.

Some gamblers do care, in fact if there is no racing there is no racing to bet on. Some do have concerns for safety of the horses. Many big bettors eventually buy horses as well and they do have interest in safety. Even if they don't care as much about the horses, it's pretty harsh not to care about the human on their backs.
Honestly since other games of chance are readily available and easier to play, with far lower takeout (the part that is kept by the house) than racing, I'd say that those who do choose to play the horses are a pretty dedicated bunch. If gambling action is all you want there are casinos and slot houses and lottery games everyplace.
Learning to handicap and accepting the challenge and coming to enjoy the mental puzzle is a long process. Believe me there are easier ways to gamble. Those that choose racing should be nurtured by the sport. (Here I mean bettors on races, not slot players.) The learning curve in handicapping is steep and long! It is a more intellectual challenge than pulling a lever or always playing "red." Comparing slots to handicapping is like comparing the Times crossword to the one on the back of the kids menu at Friendly's.
Sure there are the folks who just bet a few bucks on Prado or who follow it and play during Saratoga or Keeneland but the heavy bettor is generally a smart person, a successful person in a business field. They typically are self employed (risk taking personality) and unlike the stereotype are educated and have families, nice homes and country club memberships. If you are playing thousands of dollars, you take some time and study the Form and work at structuring bets. If you want to win, you can't just show up and hope you sit at the "lucky" machine.

When it comes right down to it, horseplayers foot the bill and yet are rarely represented in talks or committees or round tables on the issues of the game. You'll hear from owners, trainers, track managers, vets and hotwalkers but rarely players. This is too bad as many of the games best handicappers and biggest bettors can offer insight and alternative ideas.

[Pronzini]

And the thing is if you talk to the horse players, you'll find more often than not that the whole horse ambiance is part of the attraction. A very good friend of mine is a professional gambler and he also has a background as a groom, hotwalker, trainer, jock agent, turf writer, assistant trainer--you name the backside job and he's done it at some point with the exception of actually riding. I was curious since he grew up as a middle class kid from the suburbs with no horse background whatsoever. I'm so used to most men not being horsey at all and generally never when they are teenagers. How did he drift onto to the track?

His response has always resonated with me: "I came for the gambling--I stayed for the horses."

And he's absolutely not alone. Gamblers can gamble on anything. The ones that are serious about horse racing are often serious about horses too.

[I'm EBO]

Can those horse players, who actually know something about horses, support the racing industry, or are the slots players, those to whom Linny referred, necessary to keep the tracks open? (The tracks seem to think so, at any rate.)

I live in Casino Country. Nearly every Native American Tribe in my area has a casino. There's one about 4 miles from my house, as a matter of fact. While I can't imagine a bigger waste of time and money than to sit feeding quarters into a slot machine, the casinos are an absolute gold mine for the tribes, and open 24 hours every day. I rolled my eyes when my neighboring tribe built a fancy-smancy hotel next door to their casino, which looked down upon the back side of a big dairy (not picturesque at all). A friend, who is a gambler, laughed and told me gamblers wouldn't have cared if it overlooked an open sewer. Considering they're getting over $200 a night for rooms in the middle of nowhere, I think she's right.

[Calamber]

Do we want our economy to be focused on the games of chance where you mindlessly either push the button, or throw the dice? I think the key concepts are that the successful horse player is an intellectual who studies the figures and the past performances, is an individual who has another business that relies upon him/her and is successful at both. In the past those players came from the agro industrial type of economy which encourages a strong sense of morality by it's very nature, the development of mankind at it's best. For the last thirty years we have become an economy where the wealthiest individuals are those whose raison d'etre is to become wealthy on the backs of those who are not. Just take a big for instance the organization of wealth around real estate speculation and those who think you need to live in a 10,000 to 17,000 square foot home with all of the latest gadgets that has the energy needs that most entire cities in the what used to be called the developing sector use in any given time. And we are trying to power it with energy companies that have either taken the profits and played the real estate market or are such greedy and wealthy hogs that they can sit in front of the US Congress and sneer at them that it requires stealing from the hard working members of the population to maintain their standard of living (listen to what the oil company execs say to the Congress). The Information Age economy is a hideous disaster and we were going to pay the piper and of course the bottom layer of the country is paying the hardest. The real estate ballon is not just going to deflate the economy, at a certain point there will be an implosion and one hopes that the thinking and caring people in this country will become very involved and help to devise a way out and assist in the reorganization so that we build our way out of a depression instead of allowing the greedy pigs to take over all of our economic decisions and control the policy of how the money is spent.

[DLee]

I have heard more than once about the evils of Polytrack from bettors. It doesn't appear to matter whether or not it may spare horse's legs, it makes betting more of a crap shoot.

[DickHertz]

I have heard more than once about the evils of Polytrack from bettors. It doesn't appear to matter whether or not it may spare horse's legs, it makes betting more of a crap shoot.

I have never and will never wager on a race involving polytrack. Might as well go play the lottery or a slot machine.

[cloudyandcallie]

I forget the year, but it was years ago, when tv did "a day at the breeder's cup" when the cup races were pretty new, and they did the whole day of how wonderful it was to race, etc., and 3 horses died, I think Go for Wand, it was a mare, broke down at the finish line and got euthed right there, so that station (ABC, NBC) never did that again. One horse collapsed and died on the backstretch and took another horse down with him. Let the general public see it, I say, so they can see what happens.
I love racing, wish we had strong horses, older horses, and fewer horses, so not so many going to slaughter. sad that if they make it off the track alive, they might get the same results as shown by Bryant Gumbel on HBO, go Bryant, do it again, show it all.
so y'all are right the gambles just love betting, and horrors but true, just like some people love to see wrecks of cats at races, some people like to see horses fall and yes even die. same people who watch those videos on youtube of horse's falling while jumping and eventing. I can't watch.

[Larksmom]

um, one of the purposes of the Breeders Cup was to promote racing with the general public, to give people rooting interests in these horses all year. Ever since the first one, they have been broadcast ALL DAY. That year when Go For Wand went down in front of the stands was the worst thing I have ever seen concerning racing . Poor filly was racing with Bayakoa [?] or Paseana[?] neck and neck and went down in front of the rest of the field. I have sort of watched racing thru my fingers since then, but the Breeders Cup has always been broadcast from 'nose to tail'.
ESPN always did fantastic work for the TC races till I noticed, [when I got the dish,] that TVG and HRTV now do credible job of covering the other races on the card, and now it seems that since they have the BC, ESPN is strangling it in its cradle. They do not cover racing on a weekly basis, and unless you KNOW when to set the dvr, you would never catch a race anymore. :sigh: It IS a business, and although there are injuries in all sports, they do not need the negative press from injured and dead horses.

[ravenclaw]

I have heard more than once about the evils of Polytrack from bettors. It doesn't appear to matter whether or not it may spare horse's legs
There may be less horses breaking their legs on Polytrack, but there are plenty of them getting soft tissue injuries on it. I think the jury is still out on whether Polytrack is really a safer, better surface. From what I have heard, it is wonderful in the mornings but not as good in the afternoons after it has warmed up and dried out.