Mark Phillips comments on Rolex falls?

[mbj]

skip

[piaffeprincess98]

I just read some comments of his in COTH's latest issue w/ Rolex coverage. Basically to me, it sounded like he thought Laine Ashker was riding way too fast.

[Robby Johnson]

I haven't seen the article. Could you post a link?

I think a lot is going to be changing in the very near future in the ways in which we address safety. A lot of it is going to come for honest dialogue that centers around authentic purpose. I have spent some time in the corporate world being exposed to a training/conversation system called Conversant (http://www.conversant.com). I really see its relevancy in our sport as a way to have an authentic conversation about some things that have been otherwise difficult to say. Conversant seeks to identify intersections from the perspective of all stakeholders. When we can express cares/concerns around an issue or idea, and find that common intersection, that's when we can build programs that support the shared purpose.

I was with my friends at the Flower Basket when Laine fell. I also watched her in the warmup. To say her fall was the most awful thing I've ever witnessed firsthand (and I was on the galloping rope pretty much perpendicular to the landing which turned out to be prime seating, of course) is a huge understatement. I still cannot talk about it without my heart racing and my breath becoming short. As many have observed, I believe her accident could have been avoided but I am very sensitive to the fact that she knows this, and empathetic to the grief I know she is suffering.

As opposed to reading about an opinion in a publication, however, I think it would be much more effective to have that dialogue between her and her coaches - whether they're her private instructors or the international interface. Building your protocol and executing around a shared purpose gives you the system to track and measure and accept constructive criticism without feeling attacked or persecuted.

I am not sure if CMP could adapt to this sort of system but I think it would be very beneficial to the riders whose goals are to represent the country internationally, to know exactly what they need to do with each one of their horses to successfully model the shared purpose. It's not easy as each horse and rider combination are highly individual, but I think the Conversant approach has great potential in both theory and execution.

[dcm]

I saw the article, and to say the least, I was saddened to see these comments written in an article. I'm with you, Robby, when you say this is something that needed to be discussed with Laine personally, not in a public column. For the public, this issue can be addressed without specifics.

Laine is a beautiful and talented rider who obviously cares deeply for her horses. She needs everyone's support right now.

As a non-eventer, I do enjoy watching the beauty and grace of a good xc round. I can also see that something needs to be fixed. I will continue to watch and see how the eventing world handles this current dilemma. I don't think making direct attacks or accusations to individuals in public will help at all.

Robby, if you have a COTH subscription, it is in last week's edition (not yesterday's) either on line or in your mail.

[mbj]

Agree with you, Robby, that the Conversant might be a very useful tool.
I have not seen the article by CMP, just thought it might be a bit unfair of him to publish negative comments about someone who had been working pretty closely with him for quite a while,unless in the article he also acknowledges he, all of us who push "our" riders to excel in this Olympic year,may be part of the problem. Seems like the issue could have been addressed during coaching earlier. But perhaps when someone is as successful as Laine has been it is really hard to step back and say, hmm, maybe too fast. Hard for her, her coaches, hard for anyone to argue with success. I personally think that the way the upper levels are structured demands speed to win. And that the need to be fast in the "easy" parts of the course increases when you have a lot of combos that require show-jumping pace/balance. Also think steeplechase and a couple roads and tracks helped settle very fit horses, etc. She may have been going too fast, but it seems like the sport almost encourages this, and if you are lucky you are the winner, and if you ride more conservatively some may critique you as giving away a win that was yours for the taking if you had ridden more "boldly". I still think that no matter how good a rider and horse combo you are, errors , or even stumbles,will occur and errors should not result in death.

[Regal Grace]

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[RiverBendPol]

Why not shut this thread down BEFORE it becomes the train wreck that is inevitable. Lainey doesn't need to see it and as it progresses I am quite sure it will become less and less productive. As it stands right now, I happen to think 'NUFF SAID. Thanks.

[riderboy]

Robby; Agree completely. In our "real world" professional jobs we have layers of peer review and compliance "officers" who do not hesitate to invistigate various complaints and problems. Failing that there is a large hungry cadre of attorneys willing to step in. It's a real pain in the ass most of the time and I resent it because I try to be what I was trained to be-a professional. But you know, IT'S NOT PERSONAL!! I wholeheartedly agree that the riders involved are great people excellent riders and truly love their beasties. But this ain't going away. I think organizing professional riders which I've heard is being done-so that THEY can review these types of problems puts the peer in peer review. As for CMP, well he said you cannot go out and ride cross country like that. Agree or disagree but he is certainly earned the right to his opinion.

[LLDM]

Why not shut this thread down BEFORE it becomes the train wreck that is inevitable. Lainey doesn't need to see it and as it progresses I am quite sure it will become less and less productive. As it stands right now, I happen to think 'NUFF SAID. Thanks.

Yeah, right - 'cause NOT talking about it is surely the BEST way to fix it.

How exactly does that track with rider responsibility?

I am really sorry - but at what point does the reality check get to come into play? Is the "poor rider" the only one who gets to learn from their mistakes?

One thing that HAS changed about eventing in my lifetime is that we used to get dressed down in public all the time. It was very effective.

SCFarm

[mbj]

I am the original poster and tried to delete this earlier-- sorry guys-- middle -of -the -night -stupidity! By all means shut it down. I will try again!

[Rallycairn]

As long as questions are respectfully put, why shut down the thread? Isn't questioning what happened exactly what Danny Warrington (and others) said we should be doing?

Why can't we look at specific incidents, and not just generalities, as long as we're not being morbid, gruesome, or PERSONALLY offensive?

Questioning BEHAVIOR (i.e., riding as demonstrated in a particular instance) is not at all the same as condemning a person. It's not personal, truly -- it's trying to learn from what's happened.

To me, personal would be if, for example, someone went to the "Lainey and Frodo" thread and posted nasty personal accusations. Here, we're just trying to understand what caused this particular accident. IMO. YMMV, but if we can't start investigating things w/o worrying about stepping on eggshells, things won't truly change.

[arnika]

riderboy is completely correct. You may agree or disagree but MP's opinion is out in the public venue and quite frankly, it's been said multiple other places as well. This won't make it any easier on poor Laine but hopefully she won't be reading these threads.

As far as whether it's appropriate to have these discussions, IMO it goes without saying that if you can use a situation as a teaching tool then use it. If this reminds ten trainers to teach their students to ride the necessary speed for the course then many accidents may be prevented in the future. If it reminds trainers to teach their students not to push a tired horse, wonderful and the same results. We use those techniques continuously in hospital settings with excellent results.

Unfortunately, eventers are spread throughout the land but video, pics and BB statements help disseminate the information.

[eks]

I would love to hear a conversation between Jimmy W. and CMP on this subject.

Wasn't Jimmy the one who recently wrote that speed has nothing to do with these fatalities since stepplechasers ride to timber fences at higher rates of speed than eventers?

[flutie1]

I would love to hear a conversation between Jimmy W. and CMP on this subject.

Wasn't Jimmy the one who recently wrote that speed has nothing to do with these fatalities since stepplechasers ride to timber fences at higher rates of speed than eventers?

You miss Jimmy's point. There's speed with balance (steeplechasing) and speed without balance which often results in catastrophic accidents. I don't think the two guys in your hypothetical conversation would be far apart at all.

As much as certain individuals like to portray CMP as the antichrist or worse, both he and Jimmy are damn good horsemen who both understand the concept of controlled and balanced speed.

flutie

[wabadou]

I would love to hear a conversation between Jimmy W. and CMP on this subject.

Wasn't Jimmy the one who recently wrote that speed has nothing to do with these fatalities since stepplechasers ride to timber fences at higher rates of speed than eventers?


Don't steeplechasers (horses) have a high mortality rate? Certainly higher than eventing?

Laine seems like a lovely person and God knows we all make mistakes and pray that the consequences will be minimal. It is great to read how quickly she is recovering. If nothing else, her accident has brought the whole safety issue to greater awareness and hopefully this WILL lead to changes where the UL of the sport can be safer.

I have been enjoying reading her competition blog (www.laineashker.blogspot.com ), but I must say that I did get a very uneasy feeling on a number of entries where she points out the high speed of her horses' cross country runs with comments such as " the fastest in the Preliminary division", and "the fastest horse in all the Advanced divisions", etc.
Part of my uneasy feeling was knowing that there are many young riders who look up to Laine as a role model (and she seems like a great one for them to want to emulate) and the influence that those comments which indicated taking pride in speed, having the fastest round, etc, might have on impressionable young riders when they read the blogs.

If the publicity and debate regarding Laine's fall can bring about a greater awareness regarding safety, then something very positive will have come from it. Making it hush hush and flaming those who wish to debate and discuss safety awareness would IMO make it all the more a tragedy.

[EventingDaze]

Hey Guys...Just so everyone knows, Lainey has been reading what's circulating on the internet. Really, what else is there to do when you are laid up? She is all too aware of all the comments and criticism. I know the safety discussion must continue. But it is difficult and she is devastated. I'm just asking for a little sensitivity, these wounds are still very fresh.

[LisaB]

Very fresh wound Daze :no:
And IF CMP was talking about how fast riders were going, then shame on his sorry ass! HE kept saying that we aren't part of the world leaders because we don't make time! He was pressing for everyone to go fast! F-ing A-hole!
If Laine is reading anything at all, it seems the horse and hound forums are much better at keeping their tongue when a rider is laid out. Well wishes and speedy recovery Laine!

[Foxnhound919]

I am having trouble finding this article with CMP's comments.

[riderboy]

The latest one with the extended Rolex coverage results, A water color of Wash Bishop is on the cover.

[deltawave]

Making a mistake can have very bad consequences, but it does not make one a bad person.

[eventrider]

This is exactly the issue with our sport right now. EVERYONE will make a mistake at some point, I don't care who you are. No "sport" should have a horse or rider die because of human error. We learn from our mistakes, and yes Lainey may have made a mistake....but so has everyone on this board at some point. It is good to have these conversations to learn from them, but we need to fix the sport so that we can live to learn from our mistakes.

Christan

[wabadou]

This is exactly the issue with our sport right now. EVERYONE will make a mistake at some point, I don't care who you are. No "sport" should have a horse or rider die because of human error. We learn from our mistakes, and yes Lainey may have made a mistake....but so has everyone on this board at some point. It is good to have these conversations to learn from them, but we need to fix the sport so that we can live to learn from our mistakes.

Christan

Well said.

[mbj]

Well put, Christan!

[DizzyMagic]

As much as certain individuals like to portray CMP as the antichrist or worse, both he and Jimmy are damn good horsemen who both understand the concept of controlled and balanced speed.

So true. But one of them will say what he thinks and damn the torpedoes. The other just seems to talk without thinking. That's why I have so much more respect for one of them than I do for the the other...

Emily

[joyful]

We all make mistakes, and say things that don't come out right. I'd like to think that CMP's comments were taken out of context, or it was a bad moment and he was lashing back at all the bad press that he's been getting. Either way, no matter what CMP says, no one can take back the consequences of Laine's fall, and SHE's the one suffering most of all! Perhaps CMP has apologized to Laine for how he came across? All this bad talk can't be good for her, the sport, or anyone who has ever said something they regretted...

[LisaB]

Perhaps CMP has apologized to Laine for how he came across?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I needed a laugh this morning!

[Ilex]

COTH Friday May 9, 2008
Article by Beth Rasin and Molly Sorge
Page 10 - 20
"Connaught Comes Through For Dutton At Rolex Kentucky"

The authors of the article paraphrased CMP by saying this 'CMP, the USET eventing chef d'equipe, was adamant that riders need to be more responsible on the course.'

Quotes by CMP "Laine Ashker's fall was one of the worst I've seen in my life, you can not go out x-country and ride like that."

"The education needs to get out there so people don't make these sort of moves x-country, while these continue, tragic accidents will continue"

"The extraordinary thing is that in the morning, the course looked very easy and in the afternoon it looked quite difficult, people were not worried about the course until it jumped up and bit them in the ass. You don't have to relax much, and you have trouble. People were thinking it was easier than it was. When you go out on course, you need to be frightened, have some adrenaline and be focused to keep making the right moves."

Really folks....I don't think he 'slammed' anyone. And I don't think he was overly harsh on on LA. Danny Warrington and DOC both made comments about LA's accident as well.

I would gladly open up both of my horse's fatal accidents to public debate if it would make people ride safer and stop those same accidents from happening again. I loved them both. Stopped riding for a while after the second. Because I was so destroyed. Carry there names carved onto a bracelet on my wrist that I never take off.

I would NEVER do anything to intentionally harm my horses. Ever. I love my boys like they are my kids. But accidents do happen. And when there is an accident someone is unfortunately usually at fault. You take what you can, learn from your mistake, and never let it happen again. And I can tell you no matter what.....even if your horse was not responding to aids (my first accident) you still blame yourself ..... you still ask questions of your own ability. But having people patting you on the head telling you it's okay and that it wasn't your fault....it NOT helpful. It's not okay....it will never be okay....and it was to an extent my fault. And the faster I realized it the better I was. My horse trusted me and I made a mistake that cost him his life. And damn it.....it will not happen again. I will learn from the mistake, his death taught me a valuable lesson. And I endeavor to do better, try my best and never take the fragile nature of my horses for granted. Cause for how big they are and how strong they seem.....in the end they are fragile.

I hope that Laine Ashker rides and competes again. And if it is her dream to make it on an olympic team.....I hope it comes true for her. And stealing part of the lyrics from the Bare Naked Ladies ........ If I had a million dollars I would buy Laine Ashker the best 4* prospect I could find. And trust her implicitly to take the very best care of that horse and give it the best runs possible.

Tami

[ksbadger]

CMP's weren't the only comments in the Rolex review. Mike Etherington-Smith echoed Lucinda Green's comments after the European Championships (she thought they'd forgotten how to ride "a good old-fashioned coffin canter") to quote "Even at the upper levels, you see riders going too fast at coffins and wonder where they learnt to ride like that."

Danny Warrington probably said it best in his following "Forum" article on taking responsibility - No one can fix Eventing except the Riders.

[fatorangehorse]

Laine was riding too fast. She often did. I saw her coach tell her that at an event before. I don't blame her. I understand it - it's become a badge of honor within the sport. I think it's important we understand what could have led to this terrible accident so that those of us who are not as talented as Laine can avoid it.

None of that takes away from our support of Laine and her recovery or questions her love and care of her horses.

[sfir]

You are one class act.
Ruthie

[MIKES MCS]

[QUOTE I would gladly open up both of my horse's fatal accidents to public debate if it would make people ride safer and stop those same accidents from happening again. I loved them both. Stopped riding for a while after the second. Because I was so destroyed. Carry there names carved onto a bracelet on my wrist that I never take off.

I would NEVER do anything to intentionally harm my horses. Ever. I love my boys like they are my kids. But accidents do happen. And when there is an accident someone is unfortunately usually at fault. You take what you can, learn from your mistake, and never let it happen again. And I can tell you no matter what.....even if your horse was not responding to aids (my first accident) you still blame yourself ..... you still ask questions of your own ability. But having people patting you on the head telling you it's okay and that it wasn't your fault....it NOT helpful. It's not okay....it will never be okay....and it was to an extent my fault. And the faster I realized it the better I was. My horse trusted me and I made a mistake that cost him his life. And damn it.....it will not happen again. I will learn from the mistake, his death taught me a valuable lesson. And I endeavor to do better, try my best and never take the fragile nature of my horses for granted. Cause for how big they are and how strong they seem.....in the end they are fragile.[/QUOTE]

Words to live and ride by.

[Pixie Dust]

His comments sound like he is truly frightened and that he doesn't want it will happen again.

(This is coming from fresh ears. I haven't been hanging out much on COTH in recent years and don't know who I'm supposed to hate on.)

I'm really sorry that Laine has to go through this pain, physical and mental, but we all have to go through pain eventually. Hopefully we all learn from it. (And I don't mean "learn a lesson" I mean become more enlightened.)

[ponyjumper4]

Considering CMP has been one of her coaches basically for the last several months (basically over a year), I find his comments interesting.

[ColoredHares]

Tami,

Your words express everything beautifully. I too made a bad decision that cost my horse his life. I too stopped riding for a while and thoroughly analyzed exactly what I did wrong and to make sure I don't do that ever again.

Thank you for sharing that--even after 20 years, I sometimes feel that I'm the only one who's ever made a fatal mistake.

[Beth Rasin]

It's interesting to read this, as I wrote the article and debated a good bit about what to put in it regarding Laine. I have watched Laine for years, think she is fantastically talented, has made several upper level horses on her own in such a short time span, and I hope that she recovers physically and mentally and makes her return as an even better rider, to someday represent our country.
But how many threads are there on this BB questioning what is happening in eventing? When there is an obvious reason for one of the accidents, it would be irresponsible not to put it out on the table.
We can come up with new rules all we want, but the bottom line is, Laine rode that fence too fast, and Sarah Hansel had no business even entering Rolex. Those were preventable accidents. I feel horrible for both of them, but I also hope that at some point, one or both of them has the courage to publicly accept the blame and not let the sport they love take the heat.
Mark Phillips occasionally coaching Laine has nothing to do with this. When you're out on course, you are the one who has to read your horse, make sure you don't get drunk on speed or carried away and ride every fence responsibly. I actually did NOT put in a far more insulting quote about the way she rode. I wanted to get the point across of what happened, but in as fair a way as possible. Have you seen Phillips' commentary in Horse and Hound about it? He says far worse, and no, he isn't sorry, he is calling a spade a spade. When you enter an event like Rolex, your riding is open to public discussion. Not who you're dating or anything personal, but your riding is in the public eye, just like any professional athlete.
When someone posts that Mark encouraged this by telling people to go faster, it just makes me realize that the poster has no concept of what he means. Anyone Mark is talking to (ie a four-star rider) would certainly understand where, how, and when they can go fast, and in front of this particular jump was not it.
I know there is no way to avoid pain for Laine, and frankly, anything said here is probably the least of her worries. I wish the best for her, and I hope that one mistake doesn't jeopardize her career or the sport.

[LisaB]

Understood, Beth, and maybe I should have worded it more like, the pressures to make it in the inner circle precluded any notion to actually think before acting and going too fast on course. He has said that we need to go faster in order to be competitive. But I'm sure he didn't think that we would try to kill ourselves and our horses in the process.
Okay, I have this problem too. Where I try to call a spade, a spade. But instead I call it a f-ing shovel. It's crass and rude. But if I offend someone, I for darn sure apologize if I knowingly offended someone. Of course it takes someone to smack me upside the head to realize this and maybe that's his problem is that no one gives him a good smack.
I love the fact that there were a lot of withdrawls at Badminton. And at Jersey and Samur, we still have to contend with this pulmonary, heart attack, something's-going-on-physically, problem.
I still think in the young rider issue that we have to have some sort of 'college' or 'academy' to determine if you're qualified enough to do a **, ***, and **** because a lot of these kids are pushing too hard, too fast. Basically, what Danny said. We need a ball buster out there calling the shots. I also think of the Mia Eriksson problem too.

[LLDM]

Beth - Thanks for taking on such a difficult subject. And for sharing a bit of your thoughts behind it here.

Anyone Mark is talking to (ie a four-star rider) would certainly understand where, how, and when they can go fast, and in front of this particular jump was not it.


I think this statement scares me more than anything. It would seem that some 4* riders don't always understand. Yes, many of them do know. But for the others - the question (for me) is do they know and for some reason (like fatigue, distraction, stress, etc.) have a critical lapse? Or do some people get to a 4* and really not know?

Because the answers to this question lead us in very different directions.

SCFarm

[Badger]

I looked but was unable to find the May 1, 2008, Horse & Hound article on Rolex (that quotes MP) on line. If anyone has it and would be willing to PM me with his comments, I would appreciate the chance to read them.

[snoopy]

It's interesting to read this, as I wrote the article and debated a good bit about what to put in it regarding Laine. I have watched Laine for years, think she is fantastically talented, has made several upper level horses on her own in such a short time span, and I hope that she recovers physically and mentally and makes her return as an even better rider, to someday represent our country.
But how many threads are there on this BB questioning what is happening in eventing? When there is an obvious reason for one of the accidents, it would be irresponsible not to put it out on the table.
We can come up with new rules all we want, but the bottom line is, Laine rode that fence too fast, and Sarah Hansel had no business even entering Rolex. Those were preventable accidents. I feel horrible for both of them, but I also hope that at some point, one or both of them has the courage to publicly accept the blame and not let the sport they love take the heat.





:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes: :yes:

Thank you beth!!! One must own their choices in order to learn from them.

[JER]

When there is an obvious reason for one of the accidents, it would be irresponsible not to put it out on the table.
We can come up with new rules all we want, but the bottom line is, Laine rode that fence too fast, and Sarah Hansel had no business even entering Rolex. Those were preventable accidents.

Studies show that most 'accidents' are preventable, especially where children/minors are involved. According to the National Association of EMTs, 80% of accidents involving children/minors are preventable.

[Ilex]

Eventing (the UK Mag.)
June 2008
World News Section Page 6
"Rolex marred by fatalities"
No author listed

"Experts differ in their accounts of the incident, which occurred at a straightforward fence.

Course-designer Mike E-S said that the horse seemed 'almost oblivious to the fence', whereas American team trainer Mark Phillips wrote in Horse & Hound: '(The rider) pushed the horse at great speed to an impossibly long distance.' "

Further on in the issue...........
World Reports Section Page 32-35
"Dutton adds Rolex to his bugeoning CV"
No author listed

Page 34 under the heading 'Troublesome shadows?'

"The two serious incidents, and plenty of the cross-country faults, occurred during the second half of the day's action, which prompted Karen O'Connor to comment: 'It could have been the shadows causing the horses to maybe need a little more time to see the jumps. The course was riding extremely fast.' "

***

So lots of opinions...

Tami

[deltawave]

When there is an obvious reason for one of the accidents, it would be irresponsible not to put it out on the table.
We can come up with new rules all we want, but the bottom line is, Laine rode that fence too fast, and Sarah Hansel had no business even entering Rolex.

Amen. Finally.

[whadyasay]

Don't steeplechasers (horses) have a high mortality rate? Certainly higher than eventing?

Laine seems like a lovely person and God knows we all make mistakes and pray that the consequences will be minimal. It is great to read how quickly she is recovering. If nothing else, her accident has brought the whole safety issue to greater awareness and hopefully this WILL lead to changes where the UL of the sport can be safer.

I have been enjoying reading her competition blog (www.laineashker.blogspot.com ), but I must say that I did get a very uneasy feeling on a number of entries where she points out the high speed of her horses' cross country runs with comments such as " the fastest in the Preliminary division", and "the fastest horse in all the Advanced divisions", etc.
Part of my uneasy feeling was knowing that there are many young riders who look up to Laine as a role model (and she seems like a great one for them to want to emulate) and the influence that those comments which indicated taking pride in speed, having the fastest round, etc, might have on impressionable young riders when they read the blogs.

If the publicity and debate regarding Laine's fall can bring about a greater awareness regarding safety, then something very positive will have come from it. Making it hush hush and flaming those who wish to debate and discuss safety awareness would IMO make it all the more a tragedy.

And didn't she have another horse die in competition too. Maybe pushing a little to fast. I am sure she loves her horses, she ran the farm and knew the ins and outs of them but if she is winning or getting fame by being the "fastest" maybe the focus has been skewed

[wanderlust]

And didn't she have another horse die in competition too. Maybe pushing a little to fast. I am sure she loves her horses, she ran the farm and knew the ins and outs of them but if she is winning or getting fame by being the "fastest" maybe the focus has been skewed

She did, last year at Jersey Fresh, I believe. The horse collapsed and died after coming over the finish line. Folks on the board generally skirted the issue, although there were certainly comments around suspicion that it was related to either the speed the course was covered at or pushing an exhausted horse. I don't remember what the necropsy results were, but I believe it was something like EIPH.

[JER]

And didn't she have another horse die in competition too. Maybe pushing a little to fast. I am sure she loves her horses, she ran the farm and knew the ins and outs of them but if she is winning or getting fame by being the "fastest" maybe the focus has been skewed

But...

If the 'fastest' is the one closest to the optimum time and is still getting time faults (I don't know if this is the case for Laine but it does happen at the very ULs), then what the heck is 'optimum' about the optimum time?

This is something I've wondered about since watching Badminton in 1999. The course was all turns and twists, XC day was an only-in-England downpour. No one came within 30 seconds of the OT -- and that was the first horse on course, who was also the eventual winner. The second-place finisher was the second horse on course who also got to go on relatively good ground. There were loads of falls that day but only one bad one and it was caused by excessive speed. When I saw the rider go by, I couldn't believe how fast she was going, the announcer even commented on it. As I hurried to the next fence to see her, I remember thinking "She must think she can actually make the time."

The next fence was a bounce but her horse didn't know it. He thought it was a wide oxer, jumped boldly, then tried to put down in the middle when he saw the second part of the bounce. He flipped, the rider was thrown mostly clear. She recovered to ride another day but not many more as she was killed by a rotational fall on this same horse a few months later.

The following week in H & H, Mark Phillips commented on how people were calling her reckless for going that fast. His answer? "What was she doing out there? She was trying to make the time." In context, his remarks were critical of the course rather than the rider. Which is interesting in light of what he's saying about Rolex.

[snoopy]

But...

If the 'fastest' is the one closest to the optimum time and is still getting time faults (I don't know if this is the case for Laine but it does happen at the very ULs), then what the heck is 'optimum' about the optimum time?

This is something I've wondered about since watching Badminton in 1999. The course was all turns and twists, XC day was an only-in-England downpour. No one came within 30 seconds of the OT -- and that was the first horse on course, who was also the eventual winner. The second-place finisher was the second horse on course who also got to go on relatively good ground. There were loads of falls that day but only one bad one and it was caused by excessive speed. When I saw the rider go by, I couldn't believe how fast she was going, the announcer even commented on it. As I hurried to the next fence to see her, I remember thinking "She must think she can actually make the time."

The next fence was a bounce but her horse didn't know it. He thought it was a wide oxer, jumped boldly, then tried to put down in the middle when he saw the second part of the bounce. He flipped, the rider was thrown mostly clear. She recovered to ride another day but not many more as she was killed by a rotational fall on this same horse a few months later.

The following week in H & H, Mark Phillips commented on how people were calling her reckless for going that fast. His answer? "What was she doing out there? She was trying to make the time." In context, his remarks were critical of the course rather than the rider. Which is interesting in light of what he's saying about Rolex.


You must be talking of polly phillips...who was notorious for riding FAST, and I mean fast...she also had a very bold horse who was not all that "broke"

[Tiger Horse]

but I have been reading these threads with great interest. I do ride daily - down the trail - and board at a hunt/jump barn. I greatly admire those (both horses and riders) with the talent and drive to compete over fences.

As an outsider I have a couple of comments/questions:

Why are eventing courses designed so differently today? Today's courses, from what I've seen, look more like stadium courses with natural-type obstacles . . . why the change? Were the courses not challenging enough before? (They looked pretty tough to me - but straightforward.)

It appears that riders move up the levels at their own discretion? If so, is that wise? Wouldn't it be better to say you have to place at so and so level, x number of times, before you could move up?

I watched some of the videos posted - today's riders seem so tense, as do the horses - seems like all the joy has been sucked out them. Is it because "winning" has become more important than "doing"?

Like I said, not an eventer and never will be - just trying to wrap my mind around this.

[JER]

You must be talking of polly phillips...who was notorious for riding FAST, and I mean fast...she also had a very bold horse who was not all that "broke"

Yes. She was really reckless and not just in her riding. There was the WEG drug scandal; the previous Badminton when she showed up with the horse (the same one) three-legged lame, claiming she 'didn't know' he was lame, despite the fact she was a Cambridge-educated vet; the bizarre series of incidents where she got on her horse bareback and rode away when the selectors came to evaluate the horse. And so on.

But this is what happens when people have a lot of ambition and have their fingers just barely touching the brass ring.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

It appears that riders move up the levels at their own discretion? If so, is that wise? Wouldn't it be better to say you have to place at so and so level, x number of times, before you could move up?




There are rules in place to when a rider can move up. For example, they need to have 4 clean runs (or maybe one with on 20 on xc) at training level before moving up to prelim. Those qualifications will likely be stiffened up soon although most riders do take their time and are over qualified before moving up. They will likely never be based on placing since that is not really an indication of your skill level as our divisions are often not split up so ammys ride against pros on a regular basis. They will likely be based on a clean jumping scores and a minimum dressage score...since your dressage score is based on an ideal...not who you are riding against that day.

[bosox]

She did, last year at Jersey Fresh, I believe. The horse collapsed and died after coming over the finish line. Folks on the board generally skirted the issue, although there were certainly comments around suspicion that it was related to either the speed the course was covered at or pushing an exhausted horse. I don't remember what the necropsy results were, but I believe it was something like EIPH.

Ok---either it is or it isn't related to speed or courses. When Bloggers mention the same thing about EIPH being related to the horse being taxed on course---this board slams the idea.

I personally think that it may be related to speed or the course stress. There are too many of these deaths clustered in a short timeframe for us not to look at it being a possiblity.

[JER]

Ok---either it is or it isn't related to speed or courses. When Bloggers mention the same thing about EIPH being related to the horse being taxed on course---this board slams the idea.

I personally think that it may be related to speed or the course stress. There are too many of these deaths clustered in a short timeframe for us not to look at it being a possiblity.

Another one last weekend, at Chepstow in the UK at 1* level.

From Horse & Hound (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/256648.html):
The 17-year-old collapsed with a suspected heart attack when Alice was about to remount after being unseated at fence 17 on the international novice track.

[NeverTime]

Excellent news: Laine is recovered enough to post her first entry on her blog (http://laineashker.blogspot.com/2008/05/update-and-wonderful-surprise.html). She talks about plans to start teaching and riding again soon, to go to Fair Hill in the fall and her family's attempts to secure sponsorship to help buy Mazetto, her other Rolex ride, owned by the family of her friend Eleanor Brennan who was killed at the Ocala CCI** last year.

To the matter immediately at hand, she has this to say:

"Lastly, I would like to thank those who have been writing/saying terrible things about Frodo and I to the public: you have once, again inspired me to rise about the standard of expectation. It's funny because whenever Buck told me that it was impossible to do something (ie: make the optimum time on a xc course), it gave me such a huge push to strive for it even more! Thus, I hope at Fairhill later this year, I will prove you all wrong. That's all I have to say about that....moving on."

[flutie1]

She did, last year at Jersey Fresh, I believe. The horse collapsed and died after coming over the finish line. Folks on the board generally skirted the issue, although there were certainly comments around suspicion that it was related to either the speed the course was covered at or pushing an exhausted horse. I don't remember what the necropsy results were, but I believe it was something like EIPH.

It was also an extremely hot and humid day. Many riders had the good sense to pull up or go slowly. Lainey's first horse was also very fast and very tired and shaky at the end.

flutie

[grayarabpony]

Excellent news: Laine is recovered enough to post her first entry on her blog (http://laineashker.blogspot.com/2008/05/update-and-wonderful-surprise.html). She talks about plans to start teaching and riding again soon, to go to Fair Hill in the fall and her family's attempts to secure sponsorship to help buy Mazetto, her other Rolex ride, owned by the family of her friend Eleanor Brennan who was killed at the Ocala CCI** last year.

To the matter immediately at hand, she has this to say:

"Lastly, I would like to thank those who have been writing/saying terrible things about Frodo and I to the public: you have once, again inspired me to rise about the standard of expectation. It's funny because whenever Buck told me that it was impossible to do something (ie: make the optimum time on a xc course), it gave me such a huge push to strive for it even more! Thus, I hope at Fairhill later this year, I will prove you all wrong. That's all I have to say about that....moving on."

Oh Lord! Did she not learn anything after all? :no:

[sfir]

In fact there were many others that were faster than her - including some of the riders that have been heralded on here recently.
If you are saying that Lainey went too fast at Jersey last year then there are plenty of others you will have to accuse of the same thing.
It seems that Lainey cannot get a break on this board.
If you want to make her the poster child of 'reckless riding' for her rotational fall at Rolex please remember that every single one of our top riders has made that same mistake before - some with the same consequences - including all the ones Flutie previously mentioned as having 'picture perfect' rounds at this Rolex.
As someone who trained side by side with her for much of this winter season I will say she is being unfairly judged here. She is a talented rider that unfortunately had her worst riding moment in front of thousands of people.
Ruthie

[LLDM]

OMG - I don't think I can breathe.

SCFarm

[wabadou]

"Lastly, I would like to thank those who have been writing/saying terrible things about Frodo and I to the public: you have once, again inspired me to rise about the standard of expectation. It's funny because whenever Buck told me that it was impossible to do something (ie: make the optimum time on a xc course), it gave me such a huge push to strive for it even more! Thus, I hope at Fairhill later this year, I will prove you all wrong. That's all I have to say about that....moving on."

Wow.
Certainly not the response many were hoping for, especially those who were humble enough to take ownership of mistakes and share what they learned from them and how they changed ideas on riding and competing.

Flame suit on but the comment about when her trainer ( Buck) telling her it was impossible to make optimum time and that his doing so pushing her to strive for it even more , provokes an uneasy feeling, for the welfare of her horses, if not her, to say the least.

[wabadou]

In fact there were many others that were faster than her - including some of the riders that have been heralded on here recently.
If you are saying that Lainey went too fast at Jersey last year then there are plenty of others you will have to accuse of the same thing.


Perhaps they were "heralded" not just because they made the time but also because they did it without harm to their horses?

Just a thought.

[deltawave]

When Bloggers mention the same thing about EIPH being related to the horse being taxed on course---this board slams the idea.

"The board" doesn't "slam" the idea. "The board" is wondering if there is a connection, but waiting for data. At least the posts I've been reading. :confused:

If my trainer tells me "you can't do this", I figure "I can't do this". Not "I'll show YOU, trainer, even though I'm a Smurf and you've ridden at the CCI*** level". :no: There's an old saying--discretion is the better part of valor. The worse part of valor is "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead". :(

[sfir]

about her not being able to get a break.
EIPH can affect horses at the beginning of a course, middle or end during bad riding, good riding, fast riding and slow riding.
People are accusing her of causing it to happen to her horse at Jersey by going too fast when in fact she went slower on both of her horses than many others.
Why are people so decided that 'she caused harm to her horse' when he could easily have had some pre existing problem that caused his collapse after the course.
Also, when Lainey went to the test event in Honk Kong she came out strong but when her horse had a glance off she decided to take it easy and go slowly around the rest of the course to bring him home with a good learning experience.
She is still learning in this sport, as we all are. Her mistakes are not any different than every other top rider has made. The reason why they are top riders now is that they have learned from their mistakes along the way.
Ruthie

[SLW]

Excellent news: Laine is recovered enough to post her first entry on her blog (http://laineashker.blogspot.com/2008/05/update-and-wonderful-surprise.html). She talks about plans to start teaching and riding again soon, to go to Fair Hill in the fall and her family's attempts to secure sponsorship to help buy Mazetto, her other Rolex ride, owned by the family of her friend Eleanor Brennan who was killed at the Ocala CCI** last year.

To the matter immediately at hand, she has this to say:

"Lastly, I would like to thank those who have been writing/saying terrible things about Frodo and I to the public: you have once, again inspired me to rise about the standard of expectation. It's funny because whenever Buck told me that it was impossible to do something (ie: make the optimum time on a xc course), it gave me such a huge push to strive for it even more! Thus, I hope at Fairhill later this year, I will prove you all wrong. That's all I have to say about that....moving on."

She lost me. There was much to admire about the strength of a human spirit injured in the pursuit of something done for personal pleasure and now this. Good heavens, hope they delete that unattractive thread.

[snoopy]

She lost me. There was much to admire about the strength of a human spirit injured in the pursuit of something done for personal pleasure and now this. Good heavens, hope they delete that unattractive thread.


yes that shocked the hell out of me...speaking before thinking really. Unless of course she simply just does not get it.:no::eek::confused:

And who will end up funding this thought process?????

[RunForIt]

y'all, I hope all of you know where I stand on the "horses have to come first" issue - even if eventing at the UL has to come to a grinding HALT! BUT, Laine is a kid, a kid who has been through a horrible ordeal the past month - yes, in the literal sense of her own making. At the same time, there is a mammoth culture that fed her ambition, her ability to think she could just point, shoot , kick, and succeed.

Maybe we could all look past this one person's problems right now and deal with the big stuff. Laine is a survivor of eventing as we knew it til the deaths at Red Hills and Rolex and Jersey Fresh made a great many of us draw lines in the sand and say enough.

Again, Laine is still a kid, 20s or not. She's suffering and spouting off and suffering more ...let it go. Deal with the big stuff. I personally feel horrible for her. I feel worse for Frodo and the horses that may suffer the same fate. JMO.

[JER]

Laine's blog entry is a death wish, if not for her, then for her horses.

I hope the people who care about her try to save her from herself. This is almost always an impossible, desperate task and I have a lot of compassion for what they might be facing.

[deltawave]

I think people in general totally understand the nuance behind the comments going back and forth. Nobody's saying "terrible things" about her or her horse, really. I can totally understand her response, just as I can totally understand the critiques being leveled at her.

It's a big, tough world, and all of us are subject to criticism at times. How we handle it is more important than who is dishing it out, and why.

[pwynnnorman]

Does this remind anyone, just a bit, of the Sara M. issue -- some ill-advised statements she made -- before WEG 06? Another youngster showing a bit of immaturity. I'm sure someone is out there to counsel her past this. It's got to be a horrible thing, not just the fall and the horse's death, but also the public scrutiny and criticism. I suspect many twice her age would have a tough time dealing with it in publicly palatable ways. I mean, what would YOU do? Apologize and scuttle away? Self-flagellate and go back to Prelim for five years? Get out of the sport entirely?

It looks to me like Laine has chosen to hold her head up and march forward. With good counselling, I think that is the best thing to do. For her, that is--not necessarily for those seeking or expecting some kind of public acknowledgment and/or closure, though.

[wabadou]

It's a big, tough world, and all of us are subject to criticism at times. How we handle it is more important than who is dishing it out, and why.

Well said, DW.

Not only "how we handle it" but also how we take ownership of our mistakes in order to learn from them.

This applies to life in general, not just those who compete in UL eventing....

[deltawave]

Indeed and well said. Pretty much anything the young woman says or does in the next year or so is going to be under scrutiny. Nobody expects her to display the wisdom of someone who's been around for 50 years, although I daresay she probably feels as though she's aged 20 years in the last month.

I'm just glad there was no internet when I was in my 20s. Wisdom, foresight, good judgment and knowing the right thing to say are STILL bloody hard, even when I'm past twice her age. :) I'd hate to have a permanent record of my thoughts, feelings and comments under adversity forever on public display when I was that age! :eek:

[grayarabpony]

I think a friend or family member ought to be screening her posts at this time, for her sake.

[BogyNme]

hmm..that blog made me do a double take as well... is there any chance we're misunderstanding it? Maybe she's saying it was a mistake to strive for the impossible and she'll "prove you all wrong" by not making the mistake again?

[bosox]

"The board" doesn't "slam" the idea. "The board" is wondering if there is a connection, but waiting for data.

I could find many more quotes like the ones below but I am tired.:sadsmile:I guess when I read the quotes below---I don't see people saying that it could be possible. I really think we have to look at this as a real possible cause/connection. We must think outside the box b/c what sometimes may seem to be a random thing is not. There really is a pattern that is just hiding underneath many other factors. Are these horses at risk b/c of the lack of conditioning....or lack of the 10 min vet box...or the extra runs in shorter time frames b/c there isn't the extra phases....or is it a combo of all of the above or not. I don't know but glad to hear that some may be willing to see this now as a possible cause.

well, in addition to her smaller inaccuracies, her whole premise is that these horses died at Red Hills and die of heart attacks at other competitions because they are "forced to maintain speeds at the gallop that their hearts simply cannot abide." This is simply untrue-

If the horses were push beyond what normal horses in this sport can take.....more "normal" horses would have been dead or in serious distress at the end the of the course.


the horses were stressed beyond their natural capacities which resulted in their deaths." Otherwise she is blabbing on about something she nor anyone really knows at this point.


You are WAY off base when you say that the fate of those two horses was directly linked to their inability to perform what was being asked of them.

[CANTEREOIN]

Folks... let's not take this thread and begin to analyze her blog. You could interpret this a thousand ways and there could be a thousand "terrible" comments that were sent to her directly.

She could simply mean, that she will come back stronger and better than before... her use of BD's advice is out of context.

I'd like us to be kind to someone who has just been through a trauma of immense proportions... let's keep her blog off this site for comments and trust (hope) that she gets the help she needs to come back better and stronger than before (in all aspects of the sport).

We do ourselves a disservice to continue to to analyze her comments. Give her some space to recover fully and let her people tell her what she needs to know.

[WillowRidgeJ]

I know there are a number of defenders of Lanie and eventing, but I for one am tired of all the sugar-coated, polite excuses for a obviously very self centered person who has managed to destroy two horses in a very short time frame. Defend and excuse all you want, dont like the way I state it- ok, but it does not change the facts.

[Rallycairn]

The quotation from Laine's blog entry disturbed me on so many levels, but I wasn't going to post. Then I read these thoughts:

I'm just glad there was no internet when I was in my 20s. Wisdom, foresight, good judgment and knowing the right thing to say are STILL bloody hard, even when I'm past twice her age. :) I'd hate to have a permanent record of my thoughts, feelings and comments under adversity forever on public display when I was that age! :eek:

Very true, BUT no one is forcing Laine to blog. And, yes, she's in her 20's, but there are many, many people of that age in very responsible positions -- some well on their way to a medical degree, for example, and already in training positions that require them to exercise judgment re: people's lives/health -- that's just one example. And Laine is being given/has taken the responsibility for her equine partners, as have we all. She's over 18.
If anyone is in a position to take a responsibility, he or she must also take accountability.


Folks... let's not take this thread and begin to analyze her blog. ... let's keep her blog off this site for comments and trust (hope) that she gets the help she needs to come back better and stronger than before (in all aspects of the sport).

We do ourselves a disservice to continue to to analyze her comments. Give her some space to recover fully and let her people tell her what she needs to know.


But Laine is choosing to put her thoughts in the public forum, and SHE IS A ROLE MODEL for others. (And if you want to use age as a mitigating factor, I'd point out she's a role model for people who are younger than she.) Someone has already described the blog entry I found very disturbing as "inspiring."

If people with a different perspective can't offer their reaction to her thoughts (which, again, especially in this case, she VOLUNTEERED to place on a public forum), then that thinking on her part goes unchallenged to those who may be looking to follow in her footsteps.



I also follow figure skating, although there I am a spectator only instead of a spectator plus low-level participant. Skate fans on listserv groups and bulletin boards rip a new one out of any skater who so much as acts petulant over an unexpected loss in a competition. (For examples, read some of the heat Frenchman Brian Joubert took over being a little hotheaded backstage after his unexpected loss to Canadian Jeff Buttle this year at the World Championships, or go back in time a bit to the threads and threads of discussion criticising then 15- or 16-year-old Kimmie Meissner over supposedly having a "sourpuss" expression on her face while she was in the stands watching the '06 Olympics. You'dve thought she had thrown a tantrum on the ice or something, and I always wondered how could anyone know what she was reacting to, anyway -- maybe her stomach hurt, for pete's sake. But little excuse was offered for her so-called egregious behavior.)

This board seems very, very, very tame to me in the way people go to extremes to "sugar coat" and "walk on eggshells" around any breath of criticism of an upper-level rider (obviously, our flames of each other know few bounds;)). Very different world.

[Albion]

BUT, Laine is a kid, a kid who has been through a horrible ordeal the past month - yes, in the literal sense of her own making. At the same time, there is a mammoth culture that fed her ambition, her ability to think she could just point, shoot , kick, and succeed ....

Again, Laine is still a kid, 20s or not ....

Let's get real here: 24 is NOT a kid. This is directed at this sort of "but [insert person] is just a KID!" thinking in ALL areas of life. Where does being a "kid" stop? 25? 30? 35? Hell, why not just extend it indefinitely? We're always in the process of learning something, right?

I affectionately refer to my undergrads as 'kids' in casual conversation with other grad students & profs, but that's because they're lower on the academic totem pole than I am - I am certainly not a 'kid,' and would be horsewhipped by my advisors if I blamed poor judgment and actions on 'being a kid' - and I just assist in herding undergraduates along the path to enlightenment. No one's going to get killed if I handle a lecture poorly. If you are mature enough to be piloting horses around the elite levels, you are beyond 'being a kid.' And if you're not mature enough, you shouldn't be doing it.

I agree with you about a "mammoth culture," but let's not pussyfoot around the issue and continue buying into this culture of perpetual 'kid-dom.' This is exactly why you get whiny 21 and 22 year olds who need their hands held and can't take responsibility for their actions - they're just 'kids,' right?

[LisaB]

Okay, guys, I'm still waffling on whether to post this but ...
Laine, love ya, you're a great person but I've seen you over the years, ever since you moved to VA.
And wake up, kid. You've not done your homework. You've flitted around from trainer to trainer without consistent hardcore instruction. So, you like Buck? Yup, nice guy. But is he the trainer for you? I think not. You've been running your horses off their feet and have been lucky so far because you have a good eye for horseflesh. And they save your ass. Time to grow up. Become a horseperson.
You ran like a bat out of hell on Mazetto. And he's an athletic enough horse to get you around, for now. You'll make him start to lose confidence if you keep it up and he'll find ways to quit on you.
I think you've got a lot of great things going for you. Don't screw it up and take all this as a 'challenge' to go to Fair Hill. Knock it off and grow the hell up. Get to Jimmy like you did here and there, only stay there! Go to England and train with Lucinda or the Hoys. Don't be dicking around with the local trainers here and there. Go to someone older and wiser and stick with them. Good luck and hope to see you in the future kicking butt.

[J Swan]

When my husband was younger than her he was fighting in a war. We had a mortgage. Jobs. Car payments. Responsibilities. I was terrified he was going to be killed in that war.

24 is grown up. Adult.

If she's going to put her foot in her mouth - don't coddle her. She's an adult and is responsible for her own actions. We were at her age - at least I hope y'all were. I know I was.

Wisdom comes with age. If she's lucky, she'll live long enough to display some.

I'm sick of people making excuses for our young people. These are people who grew up never hearing the word NO. They grew up believing that it's someone else's fault if they fail.

How many people have posted about personal responsibility? And now folks are saying - aw - she's just a kid - go easy on her?

No!! Don't go easy on her! If something is terribly wrong - the people who love her need to get in her face and tell her - NO. You're not ready. You need to step back and work your way back up again. It doesn't mean she's a bad person, or has no value, or isn't talented.

[riderboy]

I quote Wynton Marsalis, not a rider but a great man in his field; "The humble improve."

[Pixie Dust]

Aaaaw, I love those Marsalis brothers. Great quote.

[grayarabpony]

Okay, guys, I'm still waffling on whether to post this but ...
Laine, love ya, you're a great person but I've seen you over the years, ever since you moved to VA.
And wake up, kid. You've not done your homework. You've flitted around from trainer to trainer without consistent hardcore instruction. So, you like Buck? Yup, nice guy. But is he the trainer for you? I think not. You've been running your horses off their feet and have been lucky so far because you have a good eye for horseflesh. And they save your ass. Time to grow up. Become a horseperson.
You ran like a bat out of hell on Mazetto. And he's an athletic enough horse to get you around, for now. You'll make him start to lose confidence if you keep it up and he'll find ways to quit on you.
I think you've got a lot of great things going for you. Don't screw it up and take all this as a 'challenge' to go to Fair Hill. Knock it off and grow the hell up. Get to Jimmy like you did here and there, only stay there! Go to England and train with Lucinda or the Hoys. Don't be dicking around with the local trainers here and there. Go to someone older and wiser and stick with them. Good luck and hope to see you in the future kicking butt.

I don't know Laine but this post really rang true for me. If Buck is telling you can't do it, you better believe it, because at least in his younger days Buck was a Kamikaze pilot if ever I saw one.

I also agree that 24 years old is NOT a kid.

[Regal Grace]

When my husband was younger than her he was fighting in a war. We had a mortgage. Jobs. Car payments. Responsibilities. I was terrified he was going to be killed in that war.

24 is grown up. Adult.

If she's going to put her foot in her mouth - don't coddle her. She's an adult and is responsible for her own actions. We were at her age - at least I hope y'all were. I know I was.

Wisdom comes with age. If she's lucky, she'll live long enough to display some.

I'm sick of people making excuses for our young people. These are people who grew up never hearing the word NO. They grew up believing that it's someone else's fault if they fail.


How many people have posted about personal responsibility? And now folks are saying - aw - she's just a kid - go easy on her?

No!! Don't go easy on her! If something is terribly wrong - the people who love her need to get in her face and tell her - NO. You're not ready. You need to step back and work your way back up again. It doesn't mean she's a bad person, or has no value, or isn't talented.

But are the "people who love her" going to "get in her face and tell her NO" I really wonder. Laine's blog made me very sad and is real turn off re: Eventing as a specator.

I am not looking for self flagellation or an apology but certainly not someone who says they will continue to keep doing what put them in the hospital and caused the death of their horse. I wish her a speedy recovery and hope some common sense and maturity will prevail in long run as well as keeping my fingers crossed for her horses.

[MaryKay]

I have been following Laine's recovery since the accident so I also read her blog and was distrubed as well. I was dismayed at the example she used given recent events but perhaps that does explain why her accident occurred. I have to believe that the loss of Frodo is still so raw and painful that she can't face right now any suggestion that she may be responsible.

I wish her a complete and fast recovery but I also hope that she does "pause"-there have been too many people with vast experience, Danny, CMP, DOC that have commented on the accident-I only hope she listens and learns for not only her sake but that of the horses she rides and the spectators that cheer her on. As devasting as this has been for her and her family, it has been very difficult for those of us that actually witnessed it.

[deltawave]

Makes you wonder if all of this "you are quite simply the best child in the world, there is NOTHING you can't do" talk is counterproductive parenting. :sigh: Of course a mother is her child's #1 fan, and the daughter needs that now above all things. I only hope there is circumspection, caution, and a good healthy dose of worry reining the young lady in in private.

But to each his/her own--we all think we're the best parents in the world, just like we all think our kids are the greatest. ;)

[annikak]

Makes you wonder if all of this "you are quite simply the best child in the world, there is NOTHING you can't do" talk is counterproductive parenting. :sigh: Of course a mother is her child's #1 fan, and the daughter needs that now above all things. I only hope there is circumspection, caution, and a good healthy dose of worry reining the young lady in in private.

But to each his/her own--we all think we're the best parents in the world, just like we all think our kids are the greatest. ;)

That rings VERY true- the hardest thing in parenting. When to say, "Honey, maybe we should think about this...."

It WAS hard to read- the girl broke her neck at Rolex a few years ago, and then Jamie and then this past thing. How many "knock knock's" do you get in life? She has been very lucky, IMO.

Karen O'C told me in a clinic that falling off was a wake-up call. That if you were falling off more then was okay, (depends, I guess on what she meant about that) that you had to re-assess. Maybe it's you, the horse, something you are doing. But you should STAY off until you figured it out. Otherwise, you were asking for an accident. She, I guess, had a period where she was not getting things right, and that is how she came up with that idea. in my case, it was a bucking horse, who we discovered that he had tumors between his vertebrae from malignant melanoma. Never would that have crossed my mind, but her words rang true...as expected.

[Sannois]

Her comments came as no surprise, considering. I think its is a common attitude among younger people now.
I am sure what she writes on her blog and what is really happening in her life, she has alot on her plate health wise.. is a different thing.
We can all just wish her well and hope that her trainers and parents have a different angle on this than we all do.
I dont know the young woman, I never heard of her before being at Rolex this season.
I do know that if I had an accident like that at 24 I would be reevaluating alot of things. This has got to be a really hard time for her. I wish her well, and the maturity and wisdom to take a good hard inner look.

[TB or not TB?]

I was a little shocked at Laine's statement, but I also wonder if she has gotten some inflammatory e-mails from PETA-type people who saw the accident on youtube or something. I would imagine getting e-mails like "UR A TERRIBLE PERSON AND YOU KILLED UR HORSE HOW CAN U COMPETE IN A BLOODSPORT" perhaps made her a bit defensive.

Personally, I would have ignored such remarks, but she's probably feeling pretty raw. Like one poster said, most people don't have their thoughts caught in cyberspace forever.

Still, it was a little chilling. :no:

[DizzyMagic]

I was a little shocked at Laine's statement, but I also wonder if she has gotten some inflammatory e-mails from PETA-type people who saw the accident on youtube or something. I would imagine getting e-mails like "UR A TERRIBLE PERSON AND YOU KILLED UR HORSE HOW CAN U COMPETE IN A BLOODSPORT" perhaps made her a bit defensive.

Personally, I would have ignored such remarks, but she's probably feeling pretty raw. Like one poster said, most people don't have their thoughts caught in cyberspace forever.

Still, it was a little chilling. :no:

The way I read that paragraph was more as a response to comments like those from CMP, not a reaction to PETA-types... I could be wrong though.

The tone really did worry me. It's the first thing I've heard that would make me support the "rotational fall" rules proposed. I've been so much more focused on wanting to PREVENT them because they're so damaging. But, yes, if you do have one AND survive it - you probably need some time to reassess outside the competition environment. If you won't take that time on your own, forcing it is the next best thing.

Emily

[Ilex]

Tami,

Your words express everything beautifully. I too made a bad decision that cost my horse his life. I too stopped riding for a while and thoroughly analyzed exactly what I did wrong and to make sure I don't do that ever again.

Thank you for sharing that--even after 20 years, I sometimes feel that I'm the only one who's ever made a fatal mistake.

In the today's world 'personal accountability' is very hard to come by. It is very easy to feel that were the 'only one to make fatal mistakes' because very few people stand up and take responsibility for their actions.

Thank you for your response.

Tami

[cyberbay]

Well, I'm more in with those who say that at the age of 24 you're still pretty young. You may have fought in a war, or be paying a mortgage or be in medical school, but that doesn't mean maturity -- it just could mean you have a penchant for danger, love to saddle yourself with obligations, or just love to study. That doesn't mean you're more mature ... it really concludes nothing. In fact, it's a known fact that individuals mature psychologically at an established rate, so having adult responsibilities may help you become mature, but it doesn't define or prove you are mature. And I would say that truly mature people have an ability to take into consideration that each person has very different experiences and knows different things, so it would be impossible to hold them to a uniform standard of being a 'grown up.'

I mean, insurance rates for age groups have been established for a reason, and there's a reason that young people pay higher rates than older people. Albion, you said it yourself, "sheperding young undergrads down the path of enlightment" -- in other words, they are NOT enlightened at this stage in their lives. And that path goes on for a lifetime, so it's kind of contradictory...

I think honestly she is quite sheltered and hasn't heard a lot of definitive 'no's in her life. It seems to me if a parent is that heavily involved, it can have the very potential to stop a lot of growth. I've never seen parents spend so much time equivocating as I've seen this last group of parents. Maybe it's hard to say 'No,' but wouldn't it be harder to see the kid badly hurt from the lack of intervention? I think someone's mom was hanging on for the ride, regardless of the price. Telling your kid he's loved no matter what is correct; telling him that his behavior is irrelevant and has no consequence is totally INCORRECT.

[nirvana002]

I was a little shocked at Laine's statement, but I also wonder if she has gotten some inflammatory e-mails from PETA-type people who saw the accident on youtube or something. I would imagine getting e-mails like "UR A TERRIBLE PERSON AND YOU KILLED UR HORSE HOW CAN U COMPETE IN A BLOODSPORT" perhaps made her a bit defensive.

Personally, I would have ignored such remarks, but she's probably feeling pretty raw. Like one poster said, most people don't have their thoughts caught in cyberspace forever.

Still, it was a little chilling. :no:

I spoke at length with Laine this morning. Imagine having a 2 hour conversation with someone you don't know well, but love dearly. Someone who has their jaw wired shut, 8 broken ribs, a broken clavicle...and most of all ,a broken heart. Yes, she got a terrible email, accusing her of the worst possible things...yes she lashed out. Please give her time to heal. She is making no excuses...she wants to know what she can do. It was so incredible talking to this young woman. She never said, but, or because..she asked what happened. It is a nightmare that she can't remember, but wants to learn from. The questions she asked were very detailed. It is what makes her so special, she wants to know and learn. I was blessed to have this conversation with her and we are all blessed to still have her on this earth.
Jill

[deltawave]

That's good to hear. Thanks for sharing. :)

[Reds-n-Greys]

Wow Nirvana, how lucky Laine is to have someone like you to help her thru this. Thank you for reaching out to her.

[nirvana002]

Wow Nirvana, how lucky Laine is to have someone like you to help her thru this. Thank you for reaching out to her.

Thanks to all. But as I told Laine, a great friendship has come of this. That is something special... I feel lucky to have her in my life, what a smart girl. I wish I could post the whole conversation...you would all be amazed, as I was.

Again Thanks.

Jill

[riderboy]

Nirvana002. That is really good to hear.

[annikak]

Yes- I had just met her on the eve of Dressage, and she was a bright lovely young woman, who of course brings out the Mama Bear feelings in me.

She is indeed lucky to have you!

[Foxnhound919]

Thanks to all. But as I told Laine, a great friendship has come of this. That is something special... I feel lucky to have her in my life, what a smart girl. I wish I could post the whole conversation...you would all be amazed, as I was.

Again Thanks.

Jill

Jill

Thank you soooooo much for posting this. It is such a relief to know she is asking questions. It will take her time to get herself straight. In the mean time I hope her posts are edited by her family. I know I am still raw from seeing the fall. A step back and a deep breath will do Laine and the entire eventing community some good.

[nirvana002]

Jill

Thank you soooooo much for posting this. It is such a relief to know she is asking questions. It will take her time to get herself straight. In the mean time I hope her posts are edited by her family. I know I am still raw from seeing the fall. A step back and a deep breath will do Laine and the entire eventing community some good.

She is well aware...and doing some "soul searching". Thank you for keeping her in your hearts and thoughts. She will be a friend forever!

[nirvana002]

Tami,

Your words express everything beautifully. I too made a bad decision that cost my horse his life. I too stopped riding for a while and thoroughly analyzed exactly what I did wrong and to make sure I don't do that ever again.

Thank you for sharing that--even after 20 years, I sometimes feel that I'm the only one who's ever made a fatal mistake.

You have owned your decisions, to a fault, you know this. How many times did I tell you what a talented rider and horsewoman you are? I knew what was killing you, in your heart, but Iffy brought it back out in you...and me. You are never the only one, but, Elizabeth, you are truely a gifted horsewoman and friend! Novemeber 15th...good times
-J

[TB or not TB?]

Yes, she got a terrible email, accusing her of the worst possible things...yes she lashed out. Please give her time to heal. She is making no excuses...she wants to know what she can do. It was so incredible talking to this young woman. She never said, but, or because..she asked what happened. It is a nightmare that she can't remember, but wants to learn from. The questions she asked were very detailed. It is what makes her so special, she wants to know and learn. I was blessed to have this conversation with her and we are all blessed to still have her on this earth.
Jill

Makes sense to me, poor kid. :no: I would not want to be in her shoes, either with the injuries and loss or the public scrutiny.

[Albion]

I mean, insurance rates for age groups have been established for a reason, and there's a reason that young people pay higher rates than older people. Albion, you said it yourself, "sheperding young undergrads down the path of enlightment" -- in other words, they are NOT enlightened at this stage in their lives. And that path goes on for a lifetime, so it's kind of contradictory...

You're right, but I am 25 - a year (if that) older than the rider in question. Contradictory? Hardly. Of course we're always learning, but it's a basic fact that I know more about what I'm teaching right now at 25 than the kids I'm teaching do (hence why I'm teaching. That, and big universities would have a hell of a time running sans TAs). I'm hardly a grizzled old veteran, but because of my age (older than the majority of undergrads) and position, am EXPECTED to comport myself with a large measure of professionalism and responsibility. Relative youth and inexperience (I know well the problems of straddling a divide between student and teacher) are no excuse for deviating from those. Believe me, if I did something that breached our code of conduct and really screwed up, neither my advisors nor my university would be going 'Aw, but she's just a kid.' I would be in serious, serious trouble - and even worse trouble if I lashed out and didn't want to take responsibility for my actions. If you are so psychologically immature you can't take responsibility for your actions, you have no business piloting horses around the highest levels of this sport. That goes for anyone, I don't care if you're 17, 24, 35, or 70.

Just because my undergraduates are young, inexperienced, and have little experience with the subject matter - that doesn't excuse grievous breeches of academic standards and codes of conduct. I refuse to accept the answer that being 'young' is an excuse for intellectual dishonesty, for instance - I somehow managed to complete my undergraduate work (and high school) without plagiarizing (and I was a minor when I started), and I think schools should come down like a ton of bricks on students that do.

I screwed up plenty (still do). But when I am read the riot act, I own up to my problems and mistakes - and set out to fix them. I don't thumb my nose at my advisors and blithely mosey on. I'm sorry Laine apparently had her feelings hurt, but if you're hanging out a shingle as a professional, soliciting sponsorship and the like, you do NOT lash out in a blog with your name attached to it. I am shocked at some of the totally unprofessional responses by so-called 'professionals' on these boards to many, many things. I'm sure she's going through an emotional rollercoaster. KEEP IT PRIVATE. I bitch plenty to fellow grads & my advisors if I'm having problems with a student - I do not have meltdowns in public or lash out at students who are thorns in my side. Why? I'm an adult, I have responsibilities. It's unacceptable behavior.

Again, when does 'kid-dom' end? What about 35 year olds that make bad decisions? Can't they be 'immature' as well? Couldn't they 'just be kids'? How about 40? And what does 'kid-dom' excuse? Maybe we should just let 25 year olds who make incredibly poor judgment & get other people killed off the hook - after all, how could they have been mature enough to know that getting behind the wheel of a car while blitzed was a bad idea? They're just kids.

[pwynnnorman]

There's a difference between understanding someone's actions and excusing them.

You make a mistake on course with tragic consequences or you make a statement in print with its own consequences--can't we understand how such things can happen under certain circumstances and thus not much such a big deal over them--i.e. "excuse" them as just things that happen, inevitably, because we're human?

In contrast, you put sharp objects in a horse's boots or you keep competing on an unsound horse, we can understand how and why that's done, but surely, can't we agree that that sort of thing deserves a lot more attention and cannot be "excused" because there's nothing inevitable about them?

Why go on and on about someone's imperfections? What's the point? Who out there is the perfect specimen and how does such a discussion help anyone?

[LLDM]

This is NOT a black and white issue. I am really tired of people trying to make it so.

Laine is not the antichrist. But she is not blameless. And this is not all about her.

It is about the deaths of horses and which are preventable (hopefully all of them - at least eventually) and which are not (at least right now). It's about the state of eventing - both internally and in public perception. It's about all of us learning to do better. And it's about keeping all of our athletes alive and in one fully functioning piece.

I am very much on the fence on whether it bothers me that the inevitable discussion about this accident causes Laine upset and pain. Upset and pain have their purposes. They are the most thorough and effective teachers we have in life. I don't think being cooed over will help her in the long run - but I am a tough b!tch about that sort of thing.

But the discussion IS VERY important to the rest of eventing. It doesn't have the luxury of being taboo right now. Sucks for Laine - but it was coming before Rolex. She (along with everyone else who rode there) took the chance this would blow up on them if they screwed up. She doubled that chance when she rode two horses there. No one made her do that either. She had nowhere near the experience level of Karen, Phillip or Boyd - and even Boyd couldn't quite pull it off.

It doesn't help her that she espouses the very core of the most controversial issues. To wit: "Warrior Mentality" - her tag line AND going against her coach's advice on making time XC. It comes across as dangerous and reckless - the very problems we are desperately trying to get a handle on both internally and with the public's perception.

Personally, I am tired of "individual rights" trumping the greater good - of eventing and of our horses. If that makes me "awful" so be it.

SCFarm

[cyberbay]

I don't let anyone off the hook in this situation. At all. I however, can straddle the contradictions: I feel that the rider in question (trying to depersonalize this and make it universal) IS young and I feel any 24 yr old running around Rolex is a youngster riding. Yet, concurrently, by actively agreeing to ride at Rolex, she must assume all the attendant responsibilities.

However, terrible tragedies can occur and NO 24 year old is equipped for handling that level of tragedy. (But, no one ever wants to talk about THAT side of upper level competition.) A rider that age should have been set up to gain experience, not try for a Team placing, at Rolex. She had another bug in her ear, though, is my suspicion.

So, I am very, very sympathetic to Laine's injuries and the loss of her horse must be nearly unbearable. I am very happy she will be well in time. Simultaneously, I balance my sincere belief that she is not to be let off the hook for these sorts of responsiblities and their outcomes with my real-life experience that no 24 yr old is equipped for this sort of devastation. On that account, my heart goes out to her for the bewildering pain, the lack of maturity to handle such devastation, and the months and years it will take to place Rolex '08 in a proper perspective. Yet, she will have to keep marching through this hell, and hopefully she will not develop denial or bravado as the way to cope with it, as that i not healing, they are just emotions that announce that things have been swept under the rug.

She chose to run Rolex, and she therefore has to live up to its consequences.

I know 25 year old TA has responsibilities, I know.

I liked your comments, LLDM. The 'greater good" means making the best choices for our horses (or anything, really) and meeting their needs. The opposite is just doing what you feel like when you like, with not a wit of thought for their ramifications or possible downsides.

[pwynnnorman]

Ah, but, do we know this?

"...that she espouses the very core of the most controversial issues. To wit: "Warrior Mentality" - her tag line AND going against her coach's advice on making time XC."


Did BD give her advice or was it a challenge? Alas, sometimes the culture of the sport makes such statement more the latter than the former. (How old is Buck anyway?)

[grayarabpony]

He's 32.

[findeight]

Ah, but, do we know this?


Did BD give her advice or was it a challenge? Alas, sometimes the culture of the sport makes such statement more the latter than the former.

Well that underlines my thoughts. That is likely where change needs to start. The underlying culture and it's pressures to conform to it and go along because it simply is the culture and that's what you do because it has always been that way. Non participants cannot possibly understand and have no right to question. Even participants could be percieved as going soft and losing their edge if they expess public concern.

Now, I don't know anybody and have no opinions about what mistakes may or may not have been made by anybody BUT it strikes me that an impartial and impersonal review board/commission/somebody that can sit down and review data to determine the cause(s) of serious accidents would help a hell of alot more then finger pointing and name calling on the faceless internet.

Somehow we need to not take accident causes as personal attacks and learn instead of defend or take it personally. We all make mistakes. Most of us have made one that has caused injury to a horse-but most of us learned why it happened and did not let it happen again. Maybe even shared what went wrong to prevent others from doing the same.

[KPF]

I'm not an eventer, and don't know Laine, although we both live in the same area and have common acquaintances. That said, I think everyone should give her a break right now. She's probably still on pain medication and may not even realize the way her words came out on her blog entry. I just came back from a bad injury myself and I can tell you from experience, pain meds can mess with your mind bigtime :eek:.

So, I think everyone should let her recover for another month or so, and then see what she has to say for herself. Meantime, her mom or a close friend should definitely oversee what she posts on the blog.

I'm not defending her, nor do I know her, but I think she deserves the benefit of the doubt here given her present circumstances.

[Toadie's mom]

If you want to be considered a "star" in sports, movies, music, etc. (and I perceive that Laine is striving to this) unfortunately it comes with the responsiblity to make an "image". I'm sure some will disagree, but very seldom is the image unfairly portrayed. Laine isn't a child and she should censor herself and tone it down. Don't excuse her age, drugs, etc. She's old enough to be responsible, and while I wouldn't wish her circumstance on anyone, her comments make her less sympathetic.
Look at Rick Dutrow. He's become the horse trainer everyone loves to hate. And deservedly so. I can't imagine that at the end of the day he really enjoys this.

[denny]

It`s simple.
Eventing needs to put in place a panel of inquiry to study ANY horse fatality, the same as endurance has. See other thread.
Then nobody is singled out, all the facts are hashed over, and blame/responsibility is either assigned or not as the facts warrant.
Simple, easy to do, and vitally necessary. Should have been put in place years ago.
Then, instead of this court of public opinion, which ranges from witch hunt to "poor baby, your best friend died", experts in the sport, including veterinarians, would be able to dispassionately study all the details, talk to witnesses, and reach an informed conclusion.
Simple.

[grayarabpony]

There will always be a court of public opinion, but a panel of inquiry is a good idea.

[J Swan]

It`s simple.
Eventing needs to put in place a panel of inquiry to study ANY horse fatality, the same as endurance has. See other thread.
Then nobody is singled out, all the facts are hashed over, and blame/responsibility is either assigned or not as the facts warrant.
Simple, easy to do, and vitally necessary. Should have been put in place years ago.
Then, instead of this court of public opinion, which ranges from witch hunt to "poor baby, your best friend died", experts in the sport, including veterinarians, would be able to dispassionately study all the details, talk to witnesses, and reach an informed conclusion.
Simple.


That's probably a good idea. It won't stop the court of public opinion; there's no way to do that.

But a proper investigation is just plain good common sense.

[riderboy]

Denny's right;it's a gotta do. I am repeating this from another thread but whenver there is a horse/rider tragedy the public outcry ( to whatever degree that is) is against the SPORT. ( eventing=killer sport etc.) Sure, the riders get beat up too, mostly in private on BB or chat rooms like this, often unfairly in many cases. But the New York Times and Newsweek and all the rest come down globally on us. " The greater good" does indeed need to be served.

[poopoo]

I just read her blog. Just sounds like another spoiled brat who's used to getting her way to me. She has no intentions of changing a thing, it doesn't sound like. Seems very immature too. It's a shame, really, to go through life like that. It's not doing her any favors, being brought up that way. And holy crap, if Buck tells you that it's impossible to make the time, then you listen. He's very straight forward in his teaching and coaching. She even admits publicly on her blog that she doesn't listen to him! Buck is probably pulling his hair out trying to figure out how to coach her. Sometimes the time isn't supposed to be made. She's riding at that level and can't figure that out? That just shows immaturity and being spoiled right there with that kind of thinking. Come on, you've had two horses die at major events in two years and you're not looking introspectively? Hello......

[Twomanydawgs]

I agree with you Poopoo...what is it going to take for her to get a clue? Why do people hire trainer's and then NOT listen to them? For the life of me I will never understand that...If you don't value their expertise and opinions then why the hell are you wasting their time and your money ??? If I were Buck, it would be cya honey and good luck!

[Tiempo]

*

[Kementari]

While I do not think Laine's actions should be above questioning, stooping to personal insults says far more about the maturity of the person doing the insulting than it says about Laine herself.

[MySparrow]

I'm a lurker on this forum, but I follow it closely because I train students in the skills needed for eventing, H/J, dressage, trail and pleasure riding. Safety is paramount in my program. The observations made about LA's and others falls have been very helpful and useful to me, and for that I thank all of you who have made thoughtful comments.

Someone mentioned changing the culture, and I thought this a good but very challenging idea. My husband has been in charge of safety at a number of large manufacturing facilities, and he assures me that this is the ONLY way to make an undertaking safer: to make safety, for themselves and all others, the responsibility of every participant. People have to be encouraged -- even forced -- to take care of each other as well as themselves.

But there's a caveat: competition, he observes, is the single greatest threat to safe choices. "It's a competitive sport," he said. "It will never be safe unless points are awarded for safety!"

So I've been pondering this conundrum: how do we create safety in a sport where operating at the edge is how you win?

Please keep talking about it. I've got former students now competing on university teams and privately, and I want to have them coming back to visit me for a long, long time!

Thanks,

Dale