Uh oh - REAL Sports with Bryant Gumble

[EMWalker]

Well, horse racing - here it comes again. I just watched a REAL Sports With Bryant Gumble on HBO. In the segment, they went to a track in West Virginia and followed as the slow horses got picked up by the "meat man" and then show the horses going to slaughter. It even showed the process of slaughter!

I am a horse person, I understand what goes on and all I can say is that I was horrified! I can't even imagine what the general public is going to say about this... here comes PETA, again.

And an interesting fact in the end - a specific trainer they showed, has had at lease one horse tested positive for a banned substance every year since 2000. The horse trainer is still training horses. That horse trainer, trains Big Brown....

This will probably start a train wreck, but since it was on TV it was worth mentioning.

[Derid]

I didn't see the Gumball show, but I was watching the Black-eyed Susan this afternoon and they were running a blurb at the bottom of the screen saying that Dutrow admitted to giving all the horses in his barn steroids on the 15th of every month.........they also noted it was legal to give the steroid in the states that he runs horses INCLUDING Kentucky, Maryland and New York.

Didn't make me feel warm or fuzzy, but it didn't suggest he was doing anything against the law.

Derid

[summerhorse]

Dutrow's violations are for illegal substances not steroids. Steroids while they SHOULD be illegal are not in most states.

In this case horse racing needs to take the hit and wake up already. Throwing away these horses like garbage is just not acceptable.

[Texarkana]

Re: Rick Dutrow
He's never really been the warm and fuzzy type. I tend not to get all cuddly about recovered (?) drug addicts who love to circumvent the rules. But... at least he's always entertaining.

And well, if there are trainers in WV willing to let HBO broadcast them selling their horses to slaughter, that is one instance where I feel PETA should be after them!!!! :eek: It's bad enough that there will always be some jerk trying to make one last dime off the horse (no matter what the discipline). But how unbalanced do you have to be to let HBO film it!?!

[EMWalker]

I agree that Bryant Gumble and his show can be rather obnoxious (I have a professional athlete husband and he can't stand watching the show) but I was shocked when they showed the stuff they did! I was just like, well, if it wakes up the horse industry then more power to them!

I am currently in Lexington for some spring horse shows and I see all these beautiful babies running in the field and I just want to take them all home.

I hope that this huge mess really helps the horse industry as a whole.

[PauletteKy]

The trainers didn't know they were being filmed. It was all done undercover. HBO went back to talk to the trainer and he basically said he didn't want to know where the horses went. Security tried to take the tapes away from the HBO staff, but they gave them a blank tape.

[kellidahorsegirl]

Are there clips of this show (or the whole show) up on the net or anywhere? I don't get HBO.

[DickHertz]

Where's County?

[Kenike]

Here you go:

The first part of the show:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=04mvw6tTHrs

The second part of the show:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RSboR03WnjI

And if you check on the Off Course forums, you'll find the original thread on this. It's been discussed for a while now.

[simply kim]

Delighted to see that this was on HBO. Hope lots of otherwise ignorant people got an education.The truth always come out eventually.

[JustJump]

Just watched. Seems like they told the truth. It's too bad, but not covering it doesn't seem to me to be any kind of solution. Makes Eight Belles seem kind of lucky, though.

[findeight]

The racing industry...and all of us who use our horses in a sport be it shows or whatever...need to face up to this. Maybe it will take the whack jobs at PETA to convince some they need to change...God knows this stuff is no secret and never has been.

Some old saying about anything only being as good as the worst part of it? Weakest link in the chain? A team being only as good as the weakest member? Well...maybe it is time we admit the weak part and work to change it.

Steroids are now frowned upon or illegal in human athletes due to detrimental effects on the user yet we openly boast of using them in horses (outside of limited, legit uses) because they "are not illegal". Great. We look real good to outsiders.

You know...one other thing here. Big Brown did not pick his owners and handlers. I don't like 'em either. That does not diminish the talent of this horse...and comparisons are never valid because any horse only has to beat what he is running against, only has to go fast enough to beat them. Not a page in a record book.

I hope he wins today and again in Belmont. We need it. And maybe it will be good for more then just the wins if racing as a whole finally deals up front with these issues.

[DickHertz]

Delighted to see that this was on HBO. Hope lots of otherwise ignorant people got an education.The truth always come out eventually.


They did a story about how Sheikh Mohammad uses 12 year old boys to race camels in Dubai about 3 years ago. I emailed Ray Paulick (former editor of the Bloodhorse about it and he said HBO Real Sports wasn't a reputable news source...

[DickHertz]

I hope he wins today and again in Belmont. We need it. And maybe it will be good for more then just the wins if racing as a whole finally deals up front with these issues.

I hope he remains sound, but runs last in the Preakness and last in the Belmont. Richard Dutrow doesn't deserve a horse like this.

[ASB Stars]

I have not looked at the video, but I do know that Christy S. from Another Chance for Horses appears in it. A friend of mine, who was there to meet up with Christy, and pick up a Saddlebred mare, watched it, and, apparently, could identify herself in it- largely because she saw her purse, first. ":lol:

One dealer, whose face was obscured, sold another ASB to AC4H, as well.

I would imagine New Holland's management is not pleased, either. They have been trying to sanatize their image- and even have one rescue referring to what we have all known as the KILL pen for years- as the "As Is" pen. MUCH more PC, doncha think? :lol:

[Acertainsmile]

Wow Dick, thats not nice.

[DickHertz]

Does anyone know the name of the trainer at Mountaineer who sent the horse away and "didn't want to know where it was going".

[farmgirl88]

THANK GOD. I am so happy HBO did this. Everything was so true and to the point and on the spot. Its about time the American public sees what actually goes on.

[DickHertz]

I have a question...

If it's illegal to transport horses for the purpose of slaughter, why doesn't the PSP just sit outside of the New Holland grounds and pull people over and ask them for Health Certificates and where they are going, etc?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the law...

[findeight]

As distateful as this whole subject is, perhaps the PSP has more pressing things on their to do list then stopping livestock haulers who don't break any traffic laws on a mere suspicion papers may not be in order...and does/do the PSP even have the authority or would that be some kind of agricultural inspection agency's job? Would they even know what papers were needed or what they were supposed to look like?

I would think parking an officer at the end of the driveway is not good police work in light of what else is going on around them in their jurisdiction.

And, Dick, Big Brown is just a horse. Can't pick his handlers. If he runs dead last in both as you wish, perhaps he will be more likely to end up like Ferdinand then as a successful stud. Don't take your distaste for the humans out on the dumb beast doing their bidding.

[jetsmom]

I have a question...

If it's illegal to transport horses for the purpose of slaughter, why doesn't the PSP just sit outside of the New Holland grounds and pull people over and ask them for Health Certificates and where they are going, etc?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the law...

It's not illegal to transport to slaughter. There is a Senate Bill that they are trying to pass that would ban transport to slaughter for human consumption, but it hasn't passed yet.

[Kenike]

It's illegal to transport in a double-decker, not illegal to just transport. And I think there's ways to skirt those laws, anyway.

Here's the link to the thread on Off Course. You can find the name of the trainer in there.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=146540&highlight=real+sports

[bobbybobby]

dick, i think some of your post are excellent,on the other hand why would any sane horse person wish for big brown to run bad.....you may not like his connections they have managed this horse as good as anyone could....man just hope for the best...racing needs a star

[kellidahorsegirl]

Thank you for posting the video links!!!! I'll watch later. But wow, I did cringe at just the beginning when they said it was that horses last time to run ever (or whatevet they said).
I'm sure this will be interesting to watch.

[DickHertz]

dick, i think some of your post are excellent,on the other hand why would any sane horse person wish for big brown to run bad.....you may not like his connections they have managed this horse as good as anyone could....man just hope for the best...racing needs a star

Dutrow has cheated his way to the top - I welcome anyone who disagrees and I'll post every infraction. Why people send their horses to a cheater is crazy and they don't deserve the Triple Crown. Dutrow is no better than a good trainer at Charles Town except he found better ways to cheat - to get known - so he could train a horse like Big Brown. He lived in a tack room for a reason - he's made a lot of horrible choices and while everyone deserves a second or even third chance, I can think of hundreds of connections I would rather root for.

A star? Hell, this is his 2nd or 3rd to last race he'll ever run. A true star runs more than 10 races in their life. So Big Brown wins the Triple Crown and then retires in August. So what? He raced and beat a bunch of shitty 3 year olds - one of the worst crops in my 32 years on this planet.

[bobbybobby]

dutrow is not a saint he is a very competant horse trainer...you are right ,he may not be any better than someone else ,but he does have the connections to put him where he is....he may have pushed the line in a few areas,but who that is successful has not?????? try an name them...you can't..the horse may not be secretariat,but he is a very nice individual....he is the best 3 year old right now,and maybe the best we have had in years !!!!!! enjoy the race and lets hope for the best....

[LCR]

Because slaughter has been banned in the U.S. these poor hores are taken all the way to Mexico where they are without proper care, food, water etc. Then run through a chute where
someone reaches down with an ice pick and renders them immotile because the spinal column
is either severed or damaged. Then they are hoisted, still alive and aware of their surroundings and throat cut!

In the U.S. the cattle, sheep and goats are slaughtered in a humane way. Because the
horses are not sent to Federal slaughter plants where strict rules must be followed that allow
inspectors to shut the plants down at the slightest infraction, those of you who voted for
stopping these federal plants, now have to have on your conscience these thousands of horses
suffering the most inhumane treatment one can imagine!

Think about what you have created! I would much prefer a bolt to the head, in a plant
that sees I am comfortable until the last few minutes--rather then days of suffering, that
ends up in Mexico!

Face up to this reality--stopping Federal slaughter WAS NOT THE ANSWER!

[jetsmom]

LCR- The VAST majority of horses slaughtered in MX are done so by captive bolt, the same way it was done in the US. Only a few thousand are slaughtered by "pithing", using a knife to sever the spinal cord. In order to export the meat out of the country, the killing method must meet the EU standards (Gunshot or captive bolt). The meat from horses where they used pithing is only sold within MX and most of it to factory workers disguised as Beef.

When slaughter was legal in the US, the same # of horses were being killed by pithing as now. What has increased is the number sent to the other plants for export overseas.

[DickHertz]

dutrow is not a saint he is a very competant horse trainer...you are right ,he may not be any better than someone else ,but he does have the connections to put him where he is....he may have pushed the line in a few areas,but who that is successful has not?????? try an name them...you can't..the horse may not be secretariat,but he is a very nice individual....he is the best 3 year old right now,and maybe the best we have had in years !!!!!! enjoy the race and lets hope for the best....

Michael Matz
Barclay Tagg
Graham Motion

[DickHertz]

Face up to this reality--stopping Federal slaughter WAS NOT THE ANSWER!

It will prove, in the long run, to be one of the steps along the way that helped end horses going to killer auctions.

[bobbybobby]

dick,you are a nice guy but a little uninformed....what the hell do you do live in a glass bottle........ride with the vet someday...open your damn eyes...don't say something you don't know....i gave you more credit than that....

[Due's Mom]

I agree with Dick in regard to Dutrow and I have been following horse racing for well over 40 years. This guy is the epitome of who you don't want in horse racing.....jmho

Steroids every month because a vet told him to do it? He made it sound as if he didn't even do any research of his own to see if it is a good or bad idea. This is NOT a horseman

Sorry.

For that reason I do not want Big Brown to win the Triple Crown

[bobbybobby]

well you are a very simple individual.....respect the horse....forget the people involved...this might be the best we have seen in 25 years.....

[Carol Ames]

I missed the Preakness Did a flilyl win?:confused:

[Tiempo]

I missed the Preakness Did a flilyl win?:confused:

Big Brown..easily.

[Due's Mom]

well you are a very simple individual.....respect the horse....forget the people involved...this might be the best we have seen in 25 years.....

I....don't....think so

Not by a long shot......jmho

Forget the people that are involved?
Are you kidding me?

[Drvmb1ggl3]

I....don't....think so

Not by a long shot......jmho

Forget the people that are involved?
Are you kidding me?

It's easy to not like Dutrow, never been a fan myself. Likewise Desormeaux, something about him has always rubbed me the wrong way. The owners, IAEH, they come across, to me at least, as cocky annoying young Wall St types.

But the horse................WOOOOOOOOOOW! How could you not like a horse like that? So yeah, I can forget the connections. Hell, one would never watch racing if you had to like the connections.

[Acertainsmile]

I have to say it's okay not to like Dutrow...but as for Kent, I've known him since he was an apprentice, and he is one of the nicest people you'll ever hope to meet... and being a little cocky comes with the job!

[mintano]

Behind The Scenes Of The Real Sports HBO Documentary:
Running For Their Lives (http://dealwithitdaily.blogspot.com/2008/05/no-day-off-running-for-their-lives.html)

[LearnToFly]

I wish they'd do a special on the people who take and retrain OTTBs....

[county]

I'm here Dick what are you looking for a fight again? Or maybe another of your bright statements like pro slaughter people are the same as those who have sex with 12 year olds. That one showed me just what a slime ball you really are.

And yes I'm pro slaughter but you already know that.

[LKF]

I wish they'd do a special on the people who take and retrain OTTBs....

What a super idea! I would LOVE to be a part of that.

[DickHertz]

I'm here Dick what are you looking for a fight again? Or maybe another of your bright statements like pro slaughter people are the same as those who have sex with 12 year olds. That one showed me just what a slime ball you really are.

And yes I'm pro slaughter but you already know that.

No, no. I didn't say if you were pro-slaughter, you were the same as those who have sex with 12 year old girls. I said people have crazy notions that they think is perfectly normal (even though the vast majority of sane people know it's not normal). Please don't take what I say or type out of context. Now, go buy a goat and feed it for a month so you can slaughter it next month for a $10 profit.

[county]

Don't raise goats Dick once again you have no clue what your talking about. But " exactly " what are you talking about when you say " sane ' people? Anyone that eats horse is not sane? Theres millons that do you know. If someone thinks differantly then you does that mean their not sane? What "exactly " were you talking about when you accused others of being like someone that has sex with 12 year old girls?

[DickHertz]

The millions that eat the meat aren't in America, you tool.

Millions eat dogs too - a while back you said eating pets would be "werid".

[county]

Not all animals are pets regardless of species I have a pet cow but I still eat beef. And why would what country people live in have to do with it? We export meat of many differant species horse being only one of them.

[Equinoxfox]

Hey Guys: As you ALL well know . I AM THE ONE.. Who started the last thread on " Sugarcreek Slaughter" .. I am sitting here just watched the first clip of that video and Broke Down Crying. i AM A MALE and this has me so upset. SO disgusted. that I wish we could take those Trainers/Owners and Meat Men to slaughter. This is horrible. I can NOT even watch the second part to this clip.. What is wrong with us in America that we are allowing these great Animals to go out of country to be eaten...:mad:

[Equinoxfox]

Hey DickHertz & County.. I AM BACK.. I was away at a Horse SHow when this thread began but I have to say my piece now... I AM FLOORED, I AM APALLED, AND MOST OF ALL I AM HEART BROKEN AT HOW TRAINERS/OWNERS ARE MONEY GREEDY....YES I SAID IT.. THEY ARE RUTHLESS GREEDY BASTARDS.:mad: MAY THEY ALL BURN IN HELL. :mad:

[county]

I take it you don't eat meat because all livestock is run by the same system. And heres a clue, real common in this country for business people to make money even the slaughter industry. Without the profit theres no business.

[cloudyandcallie]

they should show slaughter on tv often so everyone can see what happens to race horses and backyard horses and especially "cowy" QHs. And they should show dogs and cats getting killed at pounds. Then maybe just maybe some people might quit breeding, duh!!!!
I love horse racing but I don't like the horses and trainers now.............they should be responsible like Mrs. James Gallagher of Lexington, who bred my old girl "Kick and Howl" (Poker-Mother Hilda). The trainer of Big Brown is an admitted heavy drug abuser and alcoholic whose drug dealing wife dealt drugs while her 15 month old was in the house............the wife was murdered in that house and where was Big Brown's trainer? I was astonished when I saw the trainer of 8 Bells claim that giving a horse bute was like giving him 2 aspirin!!!!!!
take a bute sometime, dog strength, not horse strength, next time you break a bone or are in a car wreck................I took one of my dog's butes after an 18 wheeler hit us, switched and gave her my morphine cause it was stronger, and I could have run a race and won.......................but when you have trainers lying, and not telling the truth about drugs, you get dead horses. So test out a bute, btw, they are supposed to be bad for humans but I had no side effects, guess they the drug companies don't want us to know how they can make a horse run on a broken leg, and then tell me that a bute is just like taking 2 aspirin. guess 8 bells trainer keeps that cowboy hat on to prevent us from seeing the holes in his head..........or those shifty little lying eyes of his.

[cloudyandcallie]

before old county, who says it is ok to have feed lots full of horses for slaughter, jumps on me about $$$.
yes, you can raise horses for profit.
yes, you can depreciate your horses like you do your trucks and farm equipment.
yes you can write off expenses like food and vet costs.
so why the heck ( would use bigger badder word here but graduated from religious woman's college in virginia years ago) can't you "write off" as a business expense the price of ketamine and euthanol and burial???????because you don't care enough about the morality or ethics of keeping horses to give them a dignified death...........and you can take that off of your taxes, burial, vet costs to put a horse down, etc.............I can't, but I put down and bury.............................................. ....it's a matter of ethics.
so don't tell me it's money...........you can deduct it all!

[cloudyandcallie]

actually altho I don't want anything to happen to Big Brown, I too don't want him to win the triple.
my reason is it should be for superhorses................I don't think he is, just this is a year with a mediocre "crop" of 3 yr olds. I think if he had raced as a 2 yr old, he'd not be here today with those sheared heels that someone here so nicely sent us to the fran junga (sp) link...................I think superhorses like Affirmed and Seattle Slew (grandson of Poker) were superhorses who not only raced w/o drugs and with their own hooves, but who lived into their mid 20s and sired good horses with good bone and hooves.
so I'd like to have a filly win the next triple crown, or a colt who has a bloodline of soundness. and there are 2 more full brothers to Barbaro coming, ouch, with those spindly legs, hope they live longer than he did......oh, and one of them was born in april, what's with these late foals? makes it harder and harder for them to run as 2 and 3 yr olds, wasn't Barbaro a may foal?

[cloudyandcallie]

well actually humane slaughter is not nice. I sometimes do eat mmeat, yes, but only a little beef, lots of chicken and turkey (shut my eyes passing the chicken trucks), but I do admire all who are vegetarians and vegans, wish I could do that, I've done veggie for a year or two at the time. need to switch to just fish and seafood. but then there's the porpoise issue, if I eat tuna.
so no, we shouldn't eat meat period but we do.
so we decide what is a "product" the poor dairy cows who cannot get pregnant anymore and become McDonald's (no I don't eat fast food or hamburger) and what is a "pet". ethically in this country we don't eat dogs and cats....................and horses are as much pets to me as are my dogs and cats.
there was an article in the AHQA journal last year that advocated sending "non productive" horses to slaughter...............now all horse breeders can write off their costs of putting down and burying their horses, but they choose, choose, to get a couple of hundred more dollars out of their horses when they are lame or barren, rather than maybe not have as much beer or wine or something they could do without and bury their horses. So why are they sooooooooooooooo defensive? because they know they are wrong ethically. and morally. but they want to fight about it rather than say ok, I don't give one damn about my old horses, let them suffer and die in the slaughterhouse for what is it 275 dollars??? I wouldn't respect them more, but it would mean that I wouldn't have to keep protesting their cries of "I must pay my mortgage". rats to them.
show the horse slaughter videos....................I'm not PETA, but I think they have some good ideas...........and like the civil rights movement, it takes the extremes to make people listen to reason like MLKing, so PETA will make people listen to moderates.
NO horse should be allowed to be exported from the USA for slaughter. period. it is an ethical and moral issue not a monetary one. but the slaughter people want to tell us it is better for a horse to die in terror and fear than be put down at home and buried,. what a crock.

[J Swan]

so don't tell me it's money...........you can deduct it all!

Take some business classes - or try and run your own business.

You still have to make a profit - or demonstrate to the IRS that you are attempting to make a profit.

Horse businesses are big huge honking red alerts for IRS audits. They love to audit you and determine that you are a 'hobby'. In fact - if you look at slaughter numbers - you'll see a huge spike in the early 90's.

That was due to a change in the IRS code and treatment of horse businesses.

So yes - depending on many factors, you can 'deduct' as you call it, the cost of euthanasia. However, your business must still attempt to produce some sort of income - even if some years all you can report are losses. You STILL have to eventually report a profit. This is true of all businesses, including farms.

Additionally, in certain types of legal proceedings, such as divorce, bankruptcy, and probate or trust administration, there is a fiduciary duty (in bankruptcy and estates) to protect the assets of the estate. The PR, or bankruptcy trustee MUST protect and maximize the value of the estate. In the case of bankruptcy - to pay creditors. In the case of estates/trusts, to pay beneficiaries. In either case - a horse or horses can be sold at private sale or at auction - whatever the trustee or PR decides is best. In the case of domestic disputes, the court can order the sale of marital or solely owned assets.

Assets includes horses.

There can be many reasons that a horse ends up at auction that have nothing to do with a poor breeding decision, or any poor practice in any horse sport/industry.

Additionally, believe it or not, there are not scores of veterinarians out there willing to come to your farm and kill perfectly sound healthy horses because the IRS determined you're a hobby and not a business, or that your husband died, is ill, or has left you.

I'm not excusing anyone - I'm explaining how some things can come to pass despite our best intentions.

And of course - you know - none of this type of information EVER gets into these "documentaries".

[county]

Why in the world would feedlot owners kill and bury their livestock regardless of species? I mean seriously does that make sense to anyone at all? Write it off on taxes? Try doing that if your a feedlot operator and see how far the IRS lets that one go. I have a feeling theres some here that have no clue how to operate a livestock business.

[Equinoxfox]

Here We Go AGAIN.. Come on County.. GIVE IT BREAK.. noone here really cares to hear how you are trying to defend slaughter, or any of those Ingorant, backhanded, no good trainers/owners . They are just low life skum. and you know what .. I really don't care if they make a dime or a dollar. Those horses are being slaughtered for no apparent reason. And it is people like YOU that have a closed mind. You really need to just get off your high horse (so to speak) .. and give this topic a rest. You will not win here. ;)

[Equinoxfox]

And Furthermore,,, I really think you should not try to defend any of that killing on here. It is unmoral, and it is not catagorized the same as Beef, or any other meat for consumption. Horses are NOT meant for that purpose. But I guess if they are not making enough money for a trainer. then they feel they have no choice but to send them to slaughter.. WHATEVER,,, I am so over all that foolishness. And to be even more frank... I am over your beliefs.
Keep Them To Yourself.. :o

[J Swan]

Well - I think that it's important to understand why a horse could end up at slaughter. It doesn't matter whether or not you are pro or anti - the reasons are still there.

Part of overcoming objections is to understand the other person's perspective. While there are undoubtedly cruel, uncaring people out there, it does not do any good to characterize all owners, trainers or breeders as devils.

One poster stated that euthanasia is "just a deduction". Well, it's not. No matter how much folks protest that this is all about greed - it's a fact that the IRS places certain requirements upon businesses in order to still be treated as a business for tax purposes. It's also a fact that there are not a lot of vets willing to come out and kill healthy, sound horses.

It is a fact - whether you like it or not.
It is a fact that the IRS will not consider your horse business a true business if you do not try and recoup losses or make a profit. That is called a hobby. Hobby's are for people who do not need money in order to pay the light bill.

A person can acknowledge certain things as facts, and not be part of the problem, or one who makes excuses or condones illegal or unethical activity.

And this is where the anti-slaughter groups fail - miserably. Think of what could have been accomplished without all the rhetoric - without making enemies of the very people you seek to sway. If you walk up to someone and call them an evil horse murderer - exactly how do you expect that person to listen to anything else you have to say?

[cloudyandcallie]

I was never much of a fan of Bryant, but now he goes on my list of great people, since it is important to show exactly what happens to ex-race horses, everyone assumes haha they will be "put out to pasture" just like the lies about dogs "going to a farm". everyone should be forced to watch all the killings, then maybe we will finally give up meat. I do know if I had to kill my own chickens, I wouldn't eat chickfila again!!!! so yes we are hypocrites but at least we put down and bury our own horses and dogs and cats and don't send them to slaughter.

[cloudyandcallie]

anyone who has a "horse business" and says that they cannot deduct the cost of putting a horse down is flat out lying. I'm not talking hobby, and if you can afford a hobby you can afford a burial (it's 100 dollars to bury here in coastal georgia btw) and if you are in business, you depreciate your horses and your trucks and other equipment, don't tell me otherwise. oh, and I did take business courses at my women's college and also at my state law school, thanks for the tip, but I don't run a horse business cause it is hard enough to put down my beloved horses when they are old/sick, I sure as hell wouldn't sell them!
so those of you "in business" simply say the truth.............you'd rather get a couple of hundred dollars to kill your horses and not care if they suffer, rather than spend a couple of hundred dollars and put them down. and I hold mine when it is done, dogs cats and horses. but then they are worth it....
maybe you could lay off a little alcohol and steaks and save up the money??? if you aren't making a profit in the horse business, maybe you should stop breeding???? just admit what you do and that you don't care about the horses and what happens to them.............I wouldn't be happy, but at least you'd be truthful.............................. or maybe you think we should start eating Chows and Daschunds????????????????

[county]

Well as usual the anti slaughter crowd has to make perrsonal attacks and lies to get their point accross I honestly think alot of them are just to dumb to do anything else. If I ever hear a logical reason not to be pro slaughter based on fact not emotion and personal attacks I'd be shocked. Some of you people can't see reality if it was right in front of you. There has not been one time I've defended anything illegal yet.

And BTW an anti slaughter person on this thread asked where I was I didn't come looking.

[county]

BTW cloudy and callie could you show me please where I ever said something could not be deducted? I really doubt you have a clue I've sure never seen anything that makes me think you do.

[J Swan]

Well, I'm not "in the business". I don't breed horses, nor do I send any to auction. However, I have done more than take a couple of business courses in college. Perhaps you should listen to the voice of experience.

If you think that I am lying, than your best course of action is to read up on the subject, or contact your old professors. Or better yet - you could ask the sport horse breeders on this forum - since they file tax returns.

I did not say you cannot deduct the cost of euthanasia. And what it costs in coastal Georgia is not what it costs in other areas of the country. For example, euthanasia of one of my goats was almost 200$ - and I buried her here. Think beyond your little corner of the world and consider what people have to deal with day to day.

You seem to be more interested in pointing out how wonderful you are. Crowing about your moral superiority smacks of hubris. Everyone on this BB is a horse lover - you don't need to hit us over the head with your halo to show us how shiny it is.

You speak from a position of total ignorance. Take this as an opportunity to educate yourself instead of calling your betters liars. No one here has lied. No one who has refuted your statements hates animals, or wants them to suffer. In fact, some of us are farmers and raise our own animals for the table. You could probably learn a lot - if you would just take the chip off your shoulder.

And if you are truly interested in trying to solve the unwanted horse issue, you might not want to support PeTA. They don't operate any shelters or rescues, and they save no dogs or cats. Almost all are killed. They even kill them after they've promised the owner a good home for the animal.

What you may want to do is support the Unwanted Horse Coalition - there is a good article in this weeks COTH, and a vet on their Board posts on this BB. These are groups within the horse industry trying to work on ways to reduce the number of unwanted horses. Not just racehorses.






anyone who has a "horse business" and says that they cannot deduct the cost of putting a horse down is flat out lying. I'm not talking hobby, and if you can afford a hobby you can afford a burial (it's 100 dollars to bury here in coastal georgia btw) and if you are in business, you depreciate your horses and your trucks and other equipment, don't tell me otherwise. oh, and I did take business courses at my women's college and also at my state law school, thanks for the tip, but I don't run a horse business cause it is hard enough to put down my beloved horses when they are old/sick, I sure as hell wouldn't sell them!
so those of you "in business" simply say the truth.............you'd rather get a couple of hundred dollars to kill your horses and not care if they suffer, rather than spend a couple of hundred dollars and put them down. and I hold mine when it is done, dogs cats and horses. but then they are worth it....
maybe you could lay off a little alcohol and steaks and save up the money??? if you aren't making a profit in the horse business, maybe you should stop breeding???? just admit what you do and that you don't care about the horses and what happens to them.............I wouldn't be happy, but at least you'd be truthful.............................. or maybe you think we should start eating Chows and Daschunds????????????????

[caffeinated]

take a bute sometime, dog strength, not horse strength, next time you break a bone or are in a car wreck................I took one of my dog's butes after an 18 wheeler hit us, switched and gave her my morphine cause it was stronger, and I could have run a race and won.......................but when you have trainers lying, and not telling the truth about drugs, you get dead horses. So test out a bute, btw, they are supposed to be bad for humans but I had no side effects, guess they the drug companies don't want us to know how they can make a horse run on a broken leg, and then tell me that a bute is just like taking 2 aspirin.

huh? Bute is harmless, since you took it with no side effects, but will keep a horse running on a broken leg?

My brain hurts. I should start a list of things I learned from CandC- among them- bute will keep a horse running on a broken leg, and "the state" takes any unwanted horses... oy.

[grandprixjump]

Doing something about horse slaughter (which I wish didn't happen actually) is like putting a stopper in the bottom of your bath tub, but leaving the water running full blast out of the faucet. Doesn't make much sense does it? Something needs to be done to slow the tide of CREATING these marginal horses. Yes I'm a lurker from the Hunter Jumper World, and have seen too many there that breed pretty, and some pretty fugly too.
And someone is going to pay big IF Brown turns out sterile because of the steroids he has received.

[county]

Threads like these show me more and more just how little anti slaughter people know on the subject. I really don't think reality visits them very often.

[Equinoxfox]

YOU KNOW... If you feel that way .. Then WHY ,, WHY on earth would you keep coming here and trying to make a point. IT is not going to go over well. YOU are not going to get your point across..WE DON"T CARE.. just give it up and let this go... You really are wasting your time here.:no:

[county]

Thats your opinion mine is much differant. I think maybe you don't understand the concept of a public forum?

[bobbybobby]

cloudyandcallie....i think you have a bad misconception about bute and othe r meds.. first place bute is not a pain killer .....i will let you look it up...and you will see how foolish you really sound....you have no facts on slaughter...i think you are one of these people who like to stir things up,just because you can.....a very small amount of knowledge is dangerous !!!!!!!!~

[J Swan]

I come here because I DO care. As do the vast majority of horsemen. Rather than point fingers - I think it's more productive to examine the reasons why any horse ends up at slaughter - and think about ways to provide an owner alternatives.

Blaming everything on breeders is rather simple minded, since, if you look at the average age of a slaughtered horse - they're generally adults. No one in the US is breeding horses for meat - they're breeding them for the sporthorse/pleasure/work market.

Again - it does not seem that a few of you are interested in solutions - which I find very sad. In the end - it is the horse that suffers from our inability to set asides our egos and work together.

And at least in my case - such attitudes from anti-slaughter groups and individuals have pushed me into the pro-slaughter camp - especially after the plants were shut down in the US - essentially outsourcing slaughter to two countries who will fight tooth and nail to keep those animals going over the border. It makes me sick - to have any of our nations livestock forced to travel over enormous distances like that.



YOU KNOW... If you feel that way .. Then WHY ,, WHY on earth would you keep coming here and trying to make a point. IT is not going to go over well. YOU are not going to get your point across..WE DON"T CARE.. just give it up and let this go... You really are wasting your time here.:no:

[moonriverfarm]

I cannot imagine the hard heart you'd have to have to be the one who operates the bolt at the processing plant. For no amount of money could I do that. There HAS to be a better way. Instead of trying to put a finger in the dam by making slaughter illegal (and simply having the meat men go across the border) we need to find a more humane and ethical way to euthanize livestock.
And in my opinion, an animal who has served a master should never end up being thrown away. We as humans should feel more responsibility and less greed.

[J Swan]

moonriverfarm - these folks are just trying to make a living. No "hard heart" required.

I have a slaughterhouse down the road from me - family operated. Nice folks - they take good care of the animals.

Shooting or captive bolt isn't inhumane. I've seen it done. Honestly - it happens very quickly and the animal never knows what hits it. Generally.

The same is true of injection - generally it's very humane. However, like the captive bolt/.22 - animals do not always go easily into the night. The most horrific euthanasia I've seen has been by lethal injection - and yet - the vet did not have a "hard heart". It's a rather cruel thing to say, actually - to assume that the people who put the food on your table are subhuman.

They're not. They're just people who work at a plant. Vets put animals to sleep all the time - and yet - they do not have hard hearts. Shelter workers kill people's pets all the time - by the millions - and yet - they do not have hard hearts.

So - please think about what you are saying. We're all human - and killing, no matter how humane, is still killing a living thing.

[Twilight]

J. Swan, I don't always agree with you, but I think in this case you have made some marvelously logical points. I wish people would approach this issue from a logical perspective rather than emotion.

[DickHertz]

No one in the US is breeding horses for meat - they're breeding them for the sporthorse/pleasure/work market.
.

Not according to County. He knows people who raise horses for slaughter.

[moonriverfarm]

I am basing my emotions regarding the ones who hold the bolt gun on the fact that in the HBO report, the person with the gun missed on several tries, causing horrid trauma to the horse. I'd feel the same if it was a cow. It is INHUMANE. And I could not do it. But I could never shoot a deer either, so maybe it is just ME.
Most of the horse owners I know, and several cattle ranchers, say they could not deliver the blow. It just isn't in them. And I disagree that it is the same as the vet doing euthanasia. It just isn't the same. The horse/cow is not in a metal box, surrounded by the smells of death, thrashing to try and escape while someone up abpve him tries to hit the right place so as only to use one bolt.
You can think of ity as the same if it makes you feel better.

[J Swan]

J. Swan, I don't always agree with you, but I think in this case you have made some marvelously logical points. I wish people would approach this issue from a logical perspective rather than emotion.


Thank you.

[county]

Once again Dick you have no clue what your talking about or maybe your just a liar. Not once have I ever said I know anyone who breeds and raises horses for slaughter.

I never understand those who think slaughter plant workers are hard hearted or those who raise livestock for meat etc. Their no differant then anyone else is they have a job to earn a living to support themselves and their families. If you eat meat you better be very glad they do that.

My idea of someone thats hardhearted are those who supported shutting down the slaughter plants in the U.S. so horses are not hauled longer distances to Mex. especially when according to those same people transport is a terrable thing.

[EMWalker]

I agree with J Swan and Twilight.

I didn't post this topic or any post for that matter to point fingers, but rather to show what the general public, non horsy people see. It gives us as riders and horse owners a bad name, no matter which sport we participate in.

I posted this topic to try to have a civil discussion on possible ways to get us all out of this crisis. ALL of us. But then again, this IS COTH and it is rare that things stay civil.

[CatOnLap]

it seems as though the responsible thing to do would have been for the USA to figure out its own problems instead of conveniently arranging to ship the "problem" of unwanted horses to foreign countries like mine and Mexico.

Contrary to what J swan asserts, people in Canada are not "fighting tooth and nail to keep those aninals coming over the border". The horse slaughter market is small compared to the main business of abbatoirs in this country.

In fact, horsemen all over my country fought and lobbied very diligently to keep this from happening, but the USA has such good control over our border and trade (due to free trade legislation) that we were unable to stop the importation of horses here for market purposes without causing huge hardship to our own horse industry. I.e. we would have had to slap huge import duties on all horses crossing our border. That would have negatively affected all our pleasure and sporthorse breeders and riders.

Its very similar to the mad cow thing. If was easy for the USA to ignore NAFTA and stop importing canadian beef for years when there were a couple of cases of mad cow detected here a few years back. yet, because of the power of the US government and its "free trade", we've been unable to stop the huge amounts of USA beef coming across even though we know now ( and most of us "knew" back then) that the only reason mad cow wasn't being detected in the USA beef was because your country was not routinely testing for it (as ours does). Recent news in the last week has sadly vindicated our fears.

So altho it is very popular for the USA to Blame Canada as South Park cartoon show sings, in this case, your home grown problem needs a homegrown solution.

Like J swan, I feel, chemical euthanasia is often NOT as humane as a well managed captive bolt. I have not seen a humane lethal injection of a pet animal or horse that did not involve some degree of panic or discomfort to the animal. I've seen half a dozen. I have seen as many cows and a couple of horses killed by captive bolt and they drop like stones.

Just to be clear, I am not "pro slaughter". My elderly horses are living out their years with me. The conditions under which meat animals travel are without exception, inhumane by modern standards. To improve that situation will mean doubling or tripling of the price of meat for human consumption. The USA food animal industry will fight against that idea for a long time.

[J Swan]

CatOnLap - I apologize for not being clear in my writing. I mean the government of those countries - not the people. Canadians can indeed pressure their government to stop the importation of horses for slaughter.

If I had the article handy I'd refer you to it - but Canadian plants have expanded and added staff - to the delight of local jobless residents. Everyone has to pay the light bill. One reopened but I'd be hard pressed to tell you where it is - so feel free to disregard or double check me.

Those two nations have a great deal of influence on American politics, as do we on theirs. Free trade agreements do have their down side; perhaps this is one of them. I'd prefer that our nations herd is handled within our own borders, and only shipped across them if that is the shortest route (states closest to borders). Instead - we've got all sorts of animals traveling horrendous distances, mostly because here in the US, no one wants a plant in their back yard - development pressures make it impossible for even the best run plant to continue operating once new residents start making complaints.

It's a real problem where I live, let me tell you.

[DickHertz]

Once again Dick you have no clue what your talking about or maybe your just a liar. Not once have I ever said I know anyone who breeds and raises horses for slaughter.



Ok, maybe you said you know someone who buys weanlings, raises them, and sends them to the killer. Same thing.

[CatOnLap]

I am aware of the expansion of facilities in Canada to handle the influx of US horseflesh and several different editorial positions on those facts. I think you have to live in the areas to truly understand this part of it. I am not pro slaughter, I am neither anti- slaughter. I see the adding of facilities to handle horses at these smaller plants as good for our economy, good for the agricultural industries they serve locally and good for Canadian horse owners, perhaps even good for their horses, since a proportion of horse from here will be slaughtered-that's a fact, jack. Their appearance coincides with a general economic upswing and a return of population to a lot of rural areas in Canada and they are not purely horse abbatoirs, but mostly existing butchers who have added facilities to handle horses on the killing floor. Some are plants that have been idle for several years due to economic depression in the area and have now re-opened.

In the days of my youth, we had local abbatoirs to handle any animal that needed killing, and generally were attached rendering plants of some sort, and the animal didn't have to travel more than a few hours in from the country. So the animal was shot or bolted, (sometimes at home by a travelling abbatoir!) the carcass was butchered and rendered and there was no waste and no cost to the owner, perhaps a small proceeds from the poundage. This is a very good and necessary part of animal husbandry, if done on a small scale with thoughtfully designed facilities to increase worker and animal comfort and safety (the two go hand in hand. No one wants to deal with a panic stricken food animal) My neighbour has employed the services of a travelling butcher of this type to slaughter the steer and pigs he raises for his own family. He comes in a stock trailer fully equipped to slaughter and butcher right there. I don't know if he would do a horse, but if there were a kennel needing the meat, that would be my first choice. The local wild animal rescues would also benefit.

As for Canada influencing the USA, I'd say thats a patronizing pipe dream. Follow the money- the US controls it all. We are not even your main trade partner anymore!

I agree about the social pressure in the USA- that is what has caused this mess!

[county]

No Dick actually its not even close I really think you need to educate yourself on these topics a little bit you make yourself look rather ignorant with some of your posts.

[DickHertz]

No Dick actually its not even close I really think you need to educate yourself on these topics a little bit you make yourself look rather ignorant with some of your posts.


Post #50 in this thread

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3209162#post3209162

[J Swan]

Ok - I wanted to make sure I had my facts straight - I have the same impression as you.

The traveling abattoir is not completely dead. (no pun intended). However,where I live, the regulatory requirements are extraordinary. Now, this is just for small animals such as poultry. But small farmers are trying very very hard to have viable means of on-site processing in order to provide their customers with a true, farm raised product.

It's a niche market. I don't know how to feed 300 million people using that model. In some European countries, it seems their residents don't generally have qualms about a butcher on Main Street. In the US - we don't even let our dogs in restaurants.

So I think there is a great deal of cultural influence that exerts itself. Americans are very NIMBY; which concentrates industry and farming. They like nature, but don't want it crapping in their front yard. But they don't want you killing Bambi - but if Bambi eats their roses... They like farms, but god forbid the wind changes or that farmer will be ridden out of town on a rail. They like the jobs that industry brings, but not in their gated communities.

I'm making generalizations - but you get the picture.

I am aware of the expansion of facilities in Canada to handle the influx of US horseflesh and several different editorial positions on those facts. I think you have to live in the areas to truly understand this part of it. I am not pro slaughter, I am neither anti- slaughter. I see the adding of facilities to handle horses at these smaller plants as good for our economy, good for the agricultural industries they serve locally and good for Canadian horse owners, perhaps even good for their horses, since a proportion of horse from here will be slaughtered-that's a fact, jack. Their appearance coincides with a general economic upswing and a return of population to a lot of rural areas in Canada and they are not purely horse abbatoirs, but mostly existing butchers who have added facilities to handle horses on the killing floor. Some are plants that have been idle for several years due to economic depression in the area and have now re-opened.

In the days of my youth, we had local abbatoirs to handle any animal that needed killing, and generally were attached rendering plants of some sort, and the animal didn't have to travel more than a few hours in from the country. So the animal was shot or bolted, (sometimes at home by a travelling abbatoir!) the carcass was butchered and rendered and there was no waste and no cost to the owner, perhaps a small proceeds from the poundage. This is a very good and necessary part of animal husbandry, if done on a small scale with thoughtfully designed facilities to increase worker and animal comfort and safety (the two go hand in hand. No one wants to deal with a panic stricken food animal) My neighbour has employed the services of a travelling butcher of this type to slaughter the steer and pigs he raises for his own family. He comes in a stock trailer fully equipped to slaughter and butcher right there. I don't know if he would do a horse, but if there were a kennel needing the meat, that would be my first choice. The local wild animal rescues would also benefit.

As for Canada influencing the USA, I'd say thats a patronizing pipe dream. Follow the money- the US controls it all. We are not even your main trade partner anymore!

I agree about the social pressure in the USA- that is what has caused this mess!

[Moderator 1]

Avoid the back-and-forth personal commentary and stick to the main topic.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[county]

Dick what about post #50? I honestly have no idea what you mean?

[gallupgirl]

.

Just to be clear, I am not "pro slaughter". My elderly horses are living out their years with me. .


I have FIVE (5) count them FIVE elderly horses living out their lives with me and I am still very much pro-slaughter.

I think people should have a CHOICE on this matter.

[VentDependent]

Bute IS like aspirin. It is an NSAID.

Please, DO NOT take Bute if you are a human. It can cause severe liver and kidney damage-the kind of side effect that goes un-noticed until it's too late (for example, you take bute, you feel better, but meanwhile your liver has lost 40% of its capacity...which you don't notice for many years until your liver has continued to age over your lifetime)

Also, it is not appropriate for use in dogs as it has severe GI side effects and we have much better things like Rimadyl and tramadol nowadays

[Jessi P]

I wrote this out for another post and after I was done writing it didnt seem as germane to the OP as it should have been. But after J Swan's post about "NIMBY" Americans it seems as if it will fit here:

In France, arent the blue horse's heads over the door to represent the butcher shops (abbatoir -sp?) as our striped barber poles represent the barber?

What is new to America as a civilization is the lack of the longer working history that other countries have with the horse. In a larger % of our time as a country (lets say its been about 4-500 years being generous) the horse has been ONLY a pet animal in the past 50 years or so. Other cultures with longer relationships with the horse have seen the horse as a necessary livestock animal for a larger % of it's relationship with the horse. For centuries horses were work animals - pulling a mill stone, carriage, plow, coal cart, being a means of transportation etc. And a very practical part of that is what to do with the horse when it no longer served its purpose. We truly live in a disposable society today - if we dont like it, throw it away and get another one. However, more practical cultures would get every use possible from the animal, including slaughtering it, using horse hide for leathers, horse hair, horse gut, feeding the hounds with horsemeat, and so on. In times of great famine I imagine the horses themselves were often eaten as a means of survival. America is a very young nation and the horse is quite romanticized here where in other countries the horse is seen in a more practical light.

No bone to pick or anything, just a passing observation.

[J Swan]

Jessi P -

I hope folks read your post. Indeed, there are vast cultural differences between Americans and European countries. Not saying that everything in Europe is hunky dory and aren't they just fabulous; because each nation has its own troubles and challenges; and each culture is unique.

But yes, if you question those of us who have lived in or were born in foreign lands, or have extensive contact with foreign nationals or have traveled a lot, you'll find there is a different perspective.

Heck - I notice cultural differences when I travel in the US! And look at Canada - in one place I visited I could have sworn I was in England. In other - if it wasn't for the very old style French - I could have sworn I was in northern France!

[CatOnLap]

we live on an island, and it is said , if our transportation stops for any reason, we have only a 3 day food supply for our half million residents. Our local councils are very much encouraging people to turn their backyards, patios, etc, into gardens. Not so much livestock, but there is still law in our books allowing city dwellers to keep a handful of poultry. Even if everyone raises one crop of potatoes in a barrel on their patio, it helps.

The travelling abbatoir is a good thing.
I am a meat eater. I have eaten horse and it is very good- like elk meat. Better than deer or bear or moose.

I believe people should be able to make their own choice as well. But around here the vegans are swiftly gaining ground. I work in a nutritional clinic. Guess who are the ones coming in with protein deficiency, vit B12 deficiency, iron deficiency, brittle bones, etc? Vegans. Yet they sit there and pass judgment on MY eating habits. Hell, I am not costing our public health system thousands of dollars in treatment costs because of my diet!

I see the banning of horse slaughter with two views: one, the entire industry from transport on forward needs overhaul and regulation, and banning slaughter of horses is one way to call attention to it.

but my fear is this:

the banning of horse slaughter in your country is the thin edge of the vegan wedge. Soon, all animal consumption will be banned by militant vegans, all slaughter will be banned, and the subsequent nutritional deficiencies will so weaken the populace that they will succumb to some sort of epidemic. Those countries still eating a variety of animal proteins will take over.

[/tongue in cheek]

[county]

I've never figured out why the whole issue is a big deal really if one doesn't want to eat horse or sell a horse to slaughter then don't. If one wants to then do so, I've just yet to hear a logical reason to ban it.

[moonriverfarm]

I think the real issue here is HOW they are slaughteresd more than the fact that they are. If you think of horses as simply livestock, it wouldn't bother you to have them slaughtered either way. Those of us who think of horses more as companion animals who we develop relationships with are bothered by the way they are carelessly thrown out when they no longer serve their humans economically.

[county]

There slaughtered just like any other livestock. If one doesn't like the system by all means don't use it, if you eat meat and buy it then you support it be it what ever species you use. Some people don't like cattle slaughter for instance they shouldn't use it then.

[moonriverfarm]

No county, just because I don't believe in the system for horses does not mean I dont believe in the system for cows. Sorry, but in this country it IS different. The fact that you cannot see that shows me what kind of person you are.
Just because I eat beef does not mean I condone horses being slaughtered in the same manner. And just FYI, if the only meat available was horse meat, I'd be a vegetarian. I have that much empathy for domestic animals.

[DickHertz]

No county, just because I don't believe in the system for horses does not mean I dont believe in the system for cows. Sorry, but in this country it IS different. The fact that you cannot see that shows me what kind of person you are.
Just because I eat beef does not mean I condone horses being slaughtered in the same manner. And just FYI, if the only meat available was horse meat, I'd be a vegetarian. I have that much empathy for domestic animals.

County fails to realize that horses are not raised for slaughter in this country...cows and pigs are.

[county]

And some people fail to realize that we export meat of many differant species horse just being one of them. The world is just a tad bigger then the U.S. Personally I'm not in favor of dropping the import/export system we use if it were the people herre would scream the loudest. But as I've said if you don't want to sell a horse for what ever reason by all means don't how hard hard can it be to figure out?

BTW MRF your posts show me the type person you are also. One that has no problem with slaughter as long as its something you like to eat yourself and find something wrong with anyone that has a differant taste.

[I'm EBO]

I believe that it doesn't matter what animal you're killing and slaughtering: All of them deserve respect and kind treatment, which they don't get in the factory farming set-up followed by most in the U.S. today. It says much about our society that the overwhelming majority don't know how animals are raised and killed. If our society had the information that most of us do have, would it make a difference? Don't know, but I can only hope so.

I take hope from the emerging "greeness" that our country seems to be experiencing right now. While the unevolved will always remain among us, just maybe conditions for most of us will, in fact, improve.

In the meantime, I will do what I can to end horse slaughter and the export of horses out of the country. I'll also ask questions of purveyors of red meat, poultry and fish. Some of them will be considered rude, and they'll think, "She just doesn't understand." They wish.:winkgrin:

[Calamber]

Actually in fact (while most likely not admitted into any statistical base) there are those who raise horses for meat. Since the family farmer has been under attack from various corners of the economic policies in especially the last nearly 30 years. Corporate farming is taking over, many have lost generational farms, in some areas it is like finding a living dinosaur to speak to and try to understand how they have suvived.

Many have turned to just that to survive somehow, just as puppy mills started their death march around the country on the heels of the economic collapse. Quite likely they were in existence in isolated form from greedy and morally distant individuals.

On the cultural front as it concerns horses when the changing cultural cataclysms have hit, the acceptance of eating horse has not been breeched, at least in the United States, and it is considered a reprenhensible thing to do. If you were starving, of course you would eat what you had to in order to survive. But if you look back throughout history, and I do not have any exact year as it happened slowly after the Renaissance, but one of the popes issued a decree against the eating of horses as it was common practice in the Roman Empire for fallen generals to be honored by the "cap" horse (the riderless horse with the boots turned backwards indicating a last look at his family), then after the ceremony they ate the horse.Also in pagan religious practices they drank the blood of the horse to give them power. So, in other words this practice has taken hold again in certain countries of Europe because of economically strangulating polices and outbreaks of diseases like mad cow.

The reason for the emotional disgust I would feel for even the idea of eating an animal such as the horse, dog & cat is because I am an inheritor, if you will, of a profoundly Christian outlook (although certainly the advanced Islamic Cultures, after their Renaissance felt the same), where the horse is our friend, our partner in war, work and in peace, and just as you would hopefully not eat your friend unless you were a cannibal or barbarian, or starving to death, as happened in Europe during WWI and WWII.

I remember stories from my German mother and things which I have read about the French underground during the war, in which they, in the midst of bombings and total devastation, would smuggle their pets with them. Heartbreaking stories that make me cry when I cuddle my pets and go to see the horses when I am the most distressed which is difficult now since I am bereft of any horse and only have 5 dogs living in a 900 square foot house. It makes me thank God that I am living in a country such as ours where we can disagree and discuss these matters on a public board.

What puzzles me the most about the Bryant Gumble show is that this has been going on for better than 30 years. Why suddenly is this such big news? Why not do an undercover investigation of the blue blood breeding stock farms where the babies are injected with steroids to make them bloom big and fat for the sales which is laying the basis for their early demise on a race track or galloping out in the field somewhere. It also does destroy their internal organs and makes them infertile if used as Dick Dutrow is doing with Big Brown and is so widely accepted that he has the confidence to announce it to the whole world. It seems like if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown that the belief will be once again ingrained and certainly will encourage those who think it is absolutely okay to inject horses with a steroid once a month for nothing other than keeping their appetite sharp and their attitude focused and aggressive. It also is totally insane to try and prove that Eight Belles did not have steroids in her systmem nowas it most likely happend when she was being prepped for the sales.

This is where the real criminal brainwashing begins when in the past if someone had admitted to that, they would have been banished with scorn from the community of great and good trainers and owners, probabaly still are, but you never hear that discussion in the daily drivel called the news media. Very few have the courage to come out and identify where the criminal indifference starts.

[CatOnLap]

And just FYI, if the only meat available was horse meat, I'd be a vegetarian. I have that much empathy for domestic animals.

I find that statement quite silly actually.

Pigs, cows, chickens, goats, rabbits, cats, dogs, and horses are all domestic animals.

I have a lot of empathy for domestic animals. My many pet animals tend to die of old age ( got a 19 year old cat now who is still bringing me bunnies...) and are indulged to the benefit of their health.

Do I think cows or pigs or chickens are dumb enough to eat?
No. My experience with all of them is that they are intelligent, affectionate animals when kept as pets. Still, I love my roast chicken, my occasional steak and bacon.

I've trained pigs, horses, cows, cats and dogs to do various things.
My opinion is that Pigs are among the smartest of domestic animals, often easier to train than dogs. Cows are not as smart as horses, generally, but still they are smart enough to learn a couple of dozen words and respond to at least that many verbal requests with obedience generally slower, but as good, as a horse.

Would I eat horse, cat or dog as a matter of course? Probably not, but when in rome... and when in Paris, one of the great culinary experiences was a restaurant where horse was a specialty. It was excellent and culturally appropriate and the hroses were raised as meat animals. I don't see the difference between eating horse and cow except as a learned cultural taboo. Refusal to eat one or the other does not make you a more empathetic person. I mean, you're still eating something with a face, except you've been brainwashed to believe that one is acceptable and another isn't.

As for vegan being "greener" than omnivore? Bullshit. Depends on where you live. The main determinant of green is the production of greenhouse gases. Producing soy protein is hugely wasteful of carbon based fuels as it needs to be transported long distances from the growing area. Eat locally. Read about the 100 mile diet. In the arctic for example, where I worked for several years, it is definitely greener to be an exclusive carnivore than to be vegan.

Would I still eat meat if I had to kill it myself?
Definitely. Have done. I don't enjoy the hunting/killing process any more than having one of my pets euthanized, but in a pinch I will do it.

What is wrong with horse slaughter is the inhumane conditions of (and long hours of) transport, the poor design of SOME facilities ( see temple grandin's designs for humane killing facilities, which are often followed in canada).

Allowing for local slaughter and having people directly involved in the process as part of the local food supply will go a long way to providing more humane conditions for all our food animals. Banning horse slaughter has had the opposite effect, just as I and many others predicted 5 years ago when the main lobbying was gaining speed.

[gwenrowdy]

Didn't someone comment the other day that horsemeat is no longer used for pet food (which is what I believed as well) and someone else thought that it still was?

http://kjct8.com/Global/story.asp?S=8378808

[Carol Ames]

teven showed the process of slaughter! EM Walker ; the\AAEP called slaughter a reasonable alternative to euthanasia; or euthanasia. from what I have seen and heard :eek:it is in No way either Euthanasia or humane. what is your feeling about this? and what did you see?

[DickHertz]

The term "reasonable" is relative to the person who uses it County thinks it's reasonable...others do not.

[I'm EBO]

Carol Ames, many, many of the institutions who support slaughter do so for financial reasons. For example, AQHA, which is paid for new registrations, promotes overbreeding and thus, promotes slaughter to keep those registration dollars coming. AVMA's memberships include many, many meat inspection vets. I have no idea why AAEP would support horse slaughter unless it's policy making people were bought, or actually believe the nonsense the others are spouting. The cattlemen are actually afraid that if horse slaughter ends, cattle slaughter will be next. (They may be right about the demise of their industry as they now practice it, but it won't be because we stop slaughtering horses.)

[DickHertz]

About a year ago I read an article about the AAEP's support of slaughter and basically they said (sic) "We'd rather have a horse get slaughtered than starve to death on someone's farm who can't afford to feed them."

[county]

I would also much rather see livestock be slaughtered then starve to death. I've seen cattle that starved to death and its not pretty by any means would much rather seen them used to feed people. To me whats rather sad are those who hope others die or get sick from the food they eat. Disgusting.

[DickHertz]

I would also much rather see livestock be slaughtered then starve to death. I've seen cattle that starved to death and its not pretty by any means would much rather seen them used to feed people. To me whats rather sad are those who hope others die or get sick from the food they eat. Disgusting.

Nobody wants to see a horse, err livestock, starve. That doesn't mean they couldn't euthanize it or at the very least, shoot it with a high caliber rifle. I really don't hope for people who eat horse meat to die, but I wouldn't lose sleep if they did. I do wonder if the saying "stable to table in 7 days" is true, how in the hell can the meat be clean and safe. Racehorses have all sorts of shit in their system. I'm not an expert on how long drugs like Clen Buterol, Epogen, Regumate can stay in a horse's system and if they can have a negative effect on people who eat the meat.

[county]

Shooting livestock isn't exactly a way to make any money unless you shoot them and then sell the meat. I'd never use anything but a .22 when I shoot livestock way to messy and a .22 is all thats needed to kill one before it hits the ground. All meat from horses passes the inspections for the country it goes to I've head nothing about people getting sick and dying from the meat and its been going over seas for decades. I know it makes some people unhappy theres been no deaths or sickness from it but I'd be much more concerned about the meat here in the U.S. are track record isn't exactly great.

[DickHertz]

Shooting livestock isn't exactly a way to make any money unless you shoot them and then sell the meat. I'd never use anything but a .22 when I shoot livestock way to messy and a .22 is all thats needed to kill one before it hits the ground. All meat from horses passes the inspections for the country it goes to I've head nothing about people getting sick and dying from the meat and its been going over seas for decades. I know it makes some people unhappy theres been no deaths or sickness from it but I'd be much more concerned about the meat here in the U.S. are track record isn't exactly great.

Sure, a .22 would be fine for a lot of people, but I wouldn't want to be around when they miss the spot.

Why do you insist on people making a couple bucks on the meat? Why not creamate the horse. A bullet, some gas, and a match, how much does that cost an owner who is to cheap to pay $50-$60 to euthanize it?

[county]

The reason I like a .22 is because I've seen people miss the spot with something larger, way to messy.

I don't insist people make money selling meat thats totally a personal choice. Myself I raise livestock as part of my living and sell meat. If someone would rather turn it to ashes I have no problem with that its their animal as long as what they do with them is legal thats their choice.