Video from "the old days" - technical combos, forward riding, but fewer tragedies

[DizzyMagic]

I posted this video over on the fun thread of eventing pictures:
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=28269719

NOTE: this link might work better for some people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22UruEhIo1w

It's a fun collection of riding snippets from the early 1990s (back when Karen was still Lende and winning Rolex on Mr. Maxwell, and Jill Henneberg looking awfully young aboard the amazing Nirvana). You get to see Ralph Hill, Stephen Bradley, Mike Plumb, Bruce Davidson, Denny Emerson, and a host of names I don't recognize at all. My favorite moment is a water jump with Dorothy Trapp and Molokai, which just shows the amazing connection and communication between them, as well as their pure love of what they're doing.

But as I was watching it this time, I started noticing things in the context of the discussions we've been having on the board about fence construction and course design, and about what constitutes good, safe riding across country. The video opens with Ralph Hill coming to a coffin-type combination where the fences are absolutely vertical and completely lacking in groundline. And he's forward (and beautiful) all the way through it.

And so it goes through the whole video. The snippets show lots of airy verticals and technical combinations and riders looking (mostly) in balance, but riding very forward. The rides aren't always "perfect", but they all seem to show great partnerships between the riders and their agile, athletic, keen-minded horses.

So, this is a flash view into the not too distant past, a time when eventing tragedies were rare freak accidents - and yet the courses look pretty darn unforgiving and technical to me. Were the riders that much better then? I've heard it said that just about everyone at the upper levels at that time either rode with Bruce or Jimmy - was there something particularly "right" about the way they produced students and horses?

Or was it a horse thing - a different type of event horse? Or a course design thing - even though they look technical, did eventing build courses that the horses really *got* and understood?

What do you guys see when you watch that video?

Emily

[snoopy]

Yes...although there were some hicups here and there...the fact that the horses were being ridden FORWARD allowed the horses to get themselves out of trouble. You do NOT see that today.

[flutie1]

"... What do you guys see when you watch that video?"

I see what Bruce described in an interview - putting your hands down and finding a galloping rhythm and going with it. Lovely! None of the yanking and hauling, stops and starts you see today.
Thanks for the memories!

flutie

[EventerAJ]

Everything looks so SMOOTH, even when it isn't perfect... because the horses are going forward, and they understand the questions; the horses are figuring things out and the riders are *letting* them get the job done.

Thanks so much for sharing the video! I also really enjoyed Mo and Dorothy! I wonder where/when that was; I've seen many "Mo moments" on video, but I don't recall that one...

[fernie fox]

I see the ability to "get out of the horse's way".

Also note the, capability of letting the reins run through their hands to the buckle ends.

[RAyers]

Every rider gets quiet and settled. They keep thier hands low and let the horse work through the combinations without tugging, kicking, or cajoling.
Also note that a few horses break to the trot to re-balance and still clear the fences.

That is the type of XC ride I grew up being taught.

Reed

[JER]

Ah, no barrage of skinnies and turning questions.

The horses can see the jumps and know what they're being asked to jump. This is why the riders can slip their reins and let the horse go. The horse breaks to the trot to rebalance himself -- this is a sign of a well-trained horse that knows how to get around XC safely.

This is also how I learned to ride XC. You rode your horse between your hand and your leg, not in a coffin canter for the entire course.

I'd also like to say that these riders seem more fit than riders I've seen recently, like at this year's Badminton.

To whoever posted this, thanks.

[J Swan]

Dizzy - I can't see the video! What am I doing wrong? I'd really like to see it.

[Fergs]

I also really enjoyed Mo and Dorothy! I wonder where/when that was; I've seen many "Mo moments" on video, but I don't recall that one...

I believe it was at Fair Hill. Much of that compilation looked familiar. I swear I used to own that video!

Thanks for sharing. Loved seeing Rick Sullivan, of all people!

[Hannahsmom]

Oh I loved this video. I remember seeing many of those combos in the flesh. That's the XC I remember and why I used to stand outside in the pouring rain on XC at Rolex to watch the horses go. No jumbotron then! You put your wellies on and hiked out to watch horses go in "Wilbur weather".

[Jleegriffith]

Just my observation but a big difference I see is that many of these riders are much more forward in the tack than riders today. I would say they are in a 3pt position or lightly touching compared to the sit up and stay back position of today. Perhaps the difference was they were riding hotter types of horses who prefered that ride or that the courses promoted forward riding and forward positions because you didn't need to regulate so much with you seat? I love watching these types of videos. The horses looked like horses who really loved the job and the riders appear to be more like cowboys than the riders of today.

[onthebit]

I saw horses jumping out of a rhythm, riders letting them get the job done, the horses could look ahead and see where they were going and figure out the quesetions being asked, courses that weren't designed and decorated to look like a theme park but just solid x-c courses.

[DizzyMagic]

Dizzy - I can't see the video! What am I doing wrong? I'd really like to see it.

Hey - send me a PM and let me know whether you're on Mac or Windows, do you use IE browser or Firefox, and do you have any problems seeing videos on youtube or other places people post them?

There doesn't seem to be a limit to the number of views - but if you keep having trouble, I'll pop it up on youtube or something else... It's definitely worth seeing - apart from being thought provoking at the moment (at least to me) - it's just fun to watch!

Emily

[DizzyMagic]

I believe it was at Fair Hill. Much of that compilation looked familiar. I swear I used to own that video!

Thanks for sharing. Loved seeing Rick Sullivan, of all people!

You probably did! It was at the tail end of a bloopers video. After watching the myriad goofs of eventing, I always loved this part, the "this is how it's done, boys and girls" look of these rides.

Emily

[kellidahorsegirl]

I'm not an eventer (but am a jumper haha)....BUT this video was outstanding. Talk about amazing rides and just being a pure joy to watch. Even in some of the sticky situations I wasn't cringing because the rider was balanced and centered.

I really just loved how QUIET these riders were...today they're very loud (from what I watch anyway). I enjoyed the clip of Bruce. I actually had the LUCK of riding with him TWICE as a kid...once when 12 on my large pony and once at 14 on my retired jumper. He rode someone's horse at the first one and I have film of him jumping the sucker 4'6 or 5'...it was just amazing for a 12 year old to see...and he rode JUST like in his clip :D

Thanks for the vid..i'm so glad I watched it!

[dressagetraks]

I'm not an eventer either, although I schooled an XC course in my jumping days, a nice group lesson held at a BN course. Close as I'll ever get. I do love watching the BNR's, though.

Lots of things I saw in this video, but I'll leave the technical fence and riding details to those better qualified. What I noticed most, though, is that they were having fun. Horses and riders both were having fun. I don't see that as much watching today, now more the rider with that look of concentration you wear when going for your ACT test and the horse with an expression of, "What are you asking? What? When? Where? Now? Is this right?"

But these riders and horses were all having fun. Great video.

[nature]

New X-C riding philosophy from Craig Thompson article, COTH Jan 25,2008 p. 36-37

This article, to me, is just the opposite of what the video in the OP is about. I loved that video amd all it stands for, yet this article contradicts it.

"Seeing a distance needs to be a practiced skill, not a random occurance."

"No longer is "brave"the first criterion for a good upper-level event horse; "careful" has taken its place at the top of the list."


"No longer is "aggression" and important attribute in a good rider; seeing a distance is"

This to me is just the opposite of the wonderful article Jimmy Wofford wrote and is talked about in another thread.

"Until a rider can see a distance at the novice height and the novice speed, it's hard to argue that they are ready to move up to the training level."

"Until they can consistently see a distance at the training level height and training level speed, it's hard to imagine that they are ready to move up to preliminary level."

I question seeing a distance at novice level. What ever happened to riding the canter and the balance and let the fence (and thus the horse) take care of themselves? I was always taught the horse jumps the fence, ride the canter you need for the fence and let the horse do his job.

How about, put the horse between your legs and the fence? Then ride forward to the fence.

Just my opinion,
a smurf who did ride thru prelim

[Robby Johnson]

I agree with what many of the posters have noted, including the observation that the questions being asked, while large, were overall achievable. With that said, there were a few rides that did make me cringe and think "ooh, unsafe," but overall, I really liked what I saw.

[DizzyMagic]

I question seeing a distance at novice level. What ever happened to riding the canter and the balance and let the fence (and thus the horse) take care of themselves? I was always taught the horse jumps the fence, ride the canter you need for the fence and let the horse do his job.

How about, put the horse between your legs and the fence? Then ride forward to the fence.

Just my opinion,
a smurf who did ride thru prelim

Thanks for posting those article snippets - what a difference compared to the way I was taught. Like Jimmy said in his article - the distance doesn't become significant until you start getting to the limits of the horse's scope. Also, I remember watching a team training session with Mark Phillips, where he told those riders - TEAM riders - to worry way more about the canter than the spot. "If your horse is here..." [picture him miming a balanced canter, with horse rocked back more on his haunches] "...the fence will be good no matter where he takes off. If you try to adjust him, you can take him out of that balance..."

I absolutely cannot imagine a novice/training level rider should be doing anything at all, except riding forward and in balance... and steering!

Emily

[Lori T]

Thanks for posting! How nice to see such forward riding. And I loved seeing those riders reach up and pat their horses!

[Sannois]

Hey - send me a PM and let me know whether you're on Mac or Windows, do you use IE browser or Firefox, and do you have any problems seeing videos on youtube or other places people post them?

There doesn't seem to be a limit to the number of views - but if you keep having trouble, I'll pop it up on youtube or something else... It's definitely worth seeing - apart from being thought provoking at the moment (at least to me) - it's just fun to watch!

Emily
I see nothing. I have a mac, and use Firefox. I usually can see stuff, I have a sneaking feeling I have the Video you are talking about, or at least it was a year I was there, Ralph, Dorthy was still trapp, Denny.
Actually The video I have was shot by hubby, I actually have Denny at the lake! :)
I would love to see this. :yes:

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Yes...although there were some hicups here and there...the fact that the horses were being ridden FORWARD allowed the horses to get themselves out of trouble. You do NOT see that today.


Bingo....and then there is also a difference between being forward and running a horse off his feet. Seems some people don't have the feel to know the difference.

I've also gone and watch at Fair Hill CCI*** for many years. Used to be seeing a backwards ride to a fence was unusual. It happened but was not the norm. Last couple of years, seeing a foward ride was more unusual. I think it was riders pick pick picking to a distance...something that even show jumpers do not do and something I was also told to NEVER do on xc.

of course now knowing what to do and actually doing it are two different things for me!

[Sannois]

Thanks for posting! How nice to see such forward riding. And I loved seeing those riders reach up and pat their horses!
I did not see near as much of this year! a Few yes, but not like years before.

[Fence2Fence]

I can't see the video either after many attempts... I'm using IE.

[DizzyMagic]

I see nothing. I have a mac, and use Firefox. I usually can see stuff, I have a sneaking feeling I have the Video you are talking about, or at least it was a year I was there, Ralph, Dorthy was still trapp, Denny.
Actually The video I have was shot by hubby, I actually have Denny at the lake! :)
I would love to see this. :yes:

I tested it out on firefox and windows, and firefox seems to be the culprit here... I was telling J Swann I'd upload to youtube later tonight, but if you can tolerate viewing in internet explorer, you'll probably have no trouble...

Denny is actually at the lake...quite right... The video begins with Ralph Hill and Freeway and finishes off with Karen at Rolex on Mr. Maxwell... Is that the one you're thinking about? :)


----edited to add
I can't see the video either after many attempts... I'm using IE.

Or....maybe it's just the myspace thing... I'll upload it to youtube later, that'll probably make the various browsers and operating systems happy! :)

Emily

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I absolutely cannot imagine a novice/training level rider should be doing anything at all, except riding forward and in balance... and steering!

Emily


Boy I agree with you. I only had a decent eye for a distance when I was jumping 4-6 horses a day....and I believe that is true for most people. So expecting the average event rider to have that kind of eye...especially at the lower level is only going to create riders who pick at their horse searching for that elusive spot!

If you learn what a good canter feels like...and do not jump ahead of your horse...the distance will work itself out anyway.

ETA: This is of course true when you are jumping well within your horse's scope...if you are pushing the limits (i.e. jumping very big fences)...the margin of error gets very very small and you really do need an eye for distance.

[seeuatx]

I have firefox and saw it on the first try.

I loved to watch this. Each of the horses looked like they were just having a grand old time. I liked seeing horses who were making decisions and helping out. My favorite might have been Jill and Nirvanna (who has always been an all time favorite of mine anyhow)... Nirvanna makes the choice for the long spot, but is tricky enough to get through. You can see on the landing side that there is a rebalance moment where it looks as though Nirvanna says "I'm ok Mom, Just let me at them." Even with a miss, she never takes her mind off the task ahead.

[Hopeful Hunter]

WOW!

OK, I don't jump solid stuff -- even an 18" log give me and my horse heart palpitations (but a 3'6" painted single rail is just fine - go figure) but this was AMAZING!!!

I have no knowledge of the technical issues that may be different, but there looked to an ignorant viewer to BE some technical questions for sure. What I saw, from my experience with the hunters, was that almost every single person was completely balanced over their horse. That seemed to allow the riders to give the horses their heads and take the reins when needed and they still remained in balance, allowing the horse to get a good jump. I didn't see riders holding horses faces, I didn't see them pick or kick. I did see a good, consistent pace - what my hunter trainer calls "get the lick and KEEP it - your horse jumps, you choose the path, pace and rhythm."

Thank you for sharing -- I'm rather awed by that, and it's what I also remember from going up to Fair Hill a few times. THESE are riders - no matter what your discipline, you have to appreciate them and their very lovely horses!

[BigRuss1996]

That video was taken from the tail end of Captain Edgars video "Eventing Bloops III ".... I have it! The begining is all falls and then it shows all the clear rounds. It's a great video but I believe copyrighted...hmm. I think they may be out of buisness now so may be legal...

Anyway.... I rode alot of those courses and remember the rounds! Thanks for the walk down memory lane. Those were the days for sure! It was still very horse friendly...

Oh.... and there is a great part at the end of that tape where the video guys all got riding/jump lessons with Ralph ...it is too funny!

[KMErickson]

on the article: I rode with Craig briefly this winter, and it was really my first experience with that kind of "seeing distances" riding (I had had a little bit of it with Bobby Costello preparing for NAYRC last summer, but other than that really none at all). I found it very unsettling to have to constantly make all the decisions of when to take off etc - it took riding to a new level of micromanagement that I had never even imagined before. I had ridden with the same trainer (Suzi Gornall, who was a top top rider in the late 70s and early 80s, two time USCTA rider of the year in the early 80s, etc... so no slouch!) for year before my experience with Craig (and came running back to her afterwards!) and she always teaches all of her students that the rider's job is get the horse into a good balance and then LET IT DO ITS JOB. It's "old school" in the best possible way. it's the horse's job to pick its four legs off the ground and jump - the rider can't do that for it! It's a much more secure feeling for me to be able to tell the horse, "ok I've done everything I can to help you, now I'm going to stay out of your way and you've got to jump the jump" rather than come down to every fence thinking, "okay, wait, wait, wait, ok now jump! PLEASE!"

Just my thought...

[snoopy]

on the article: I rode with Craig briefly this winter, and it was really my first experience with that kind of "seeing distances" riding (I had had a little bit of it with Bobby Costello preparing for NAYRC last summer, but other than that really none at all). I found it very unsettling to have to constantly make all the decisions of when to take off etc - it took riding to a new level of micromanagement that I had never even imagined before. I had ridden with the same trainer (Suzi Gornall, who was a top top rider in the late 70s and early 80s, two time USCTA rider of the year in the early 80s, etc... so no slouch!) for year before my experience with Craig (and came running back to her afterwards!) and she always teaches all of her students that the rider's job is get the horse into a good balance and then LET IT DO ITS JOB. It's "old school" in the best possible way. it's the horse's job to pick its four legs off the ground and jump - the rider can't do that for it! It's a much more secure feeling for me to be able to tell the horse, "ok I've done everything I can to help you, now I'm going to stay out of your way and you've got to jump the jump" rather than come down to every fence thinking, "okay, wait, wait, wait, ok now jump! PLEASE!"

Just my thought...


I am all for Suzi and her way of teaching...it was how I was taught and how I still ride my fences.

[DizzyMagic]

That video was taken from the tail end of Captain Edgars video "Eventing Bloops III ".... I have it! The begining is all falls and then it shows all the clear rounds. It's a great video but I believe copyrighted...hmm. I think they may be out of buisness now so may be legal...


Yep - that the one! As far as legalities - I tracked down someone from the out of business captain edgars group a few years ago and he had no problems with me posting it on the internet for no-profit entertainment... Just an informal conversation with him, so no legal paperwork to show for it, but I didn't take the copyright issue for granted...

Emily

[BigRuss1996]

I know OT but ...You should post the whole thing as it is a fun video and no one really got hurt...the Capt edgar boys lesson with Ralph is priceless!

Also do youknow why they stopped taping and why no one has taken their place?...The tapes were awesome to have I have so many from my events, they were great learning tools...

Yep - that the one! As far as legalities - I tracked down someone from the out of business captain edgars group a few years ago and he had no problems with me posting it on the internet for no-profit entertainment... Just an informal conversation with him, so no legal paperwork to show for it, but I didn't take the copyright issue for granted...

Emily

[CoolMeadows]

Lovely video of soft, balanced riders jumping out of rhythm over courses whose technical questions were actual questions that made sense and not nonsensical rhythm-disrupting traps that seem to have no correct answer but kick like hell, now rip your horse's face off. A far cry from this more recent video. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DvJVTHk2m74)

[Firefox]

Lucinda's motto E engine L line B balance or OW!!! so get the engine the line and balance right and let the horse do the rest!!

[seeuatx]

Lucinda's motto E engine L line B balance or OW!!!

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: I love it. I need to remember that one. :winkgrin:

[Carol Ames]

Thanks for posting they all l jumped fine off a forward galloping :winkgrin:stride didn't they? and that was the old full format; when Rolex was still held in May, very hot weather!
:eek:

[snoopy]

Lovely video of soft, balanced riders jumping out of rhythm over courses whose technical questions were actual questions that made sense and not nonsensical rhythm-distrupting traps that seem to have no correct answer but kick like hell, now rip your horse's face off. A far cry from this more recent video. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DvJVTHk2m74)


The evidence is clear to see between the two..very sad when it is played out like that.

[Carol Ames]

those Badminton fencesar :eek:eBIG1;some of the falls could easiily have resulted in fatal fractures, for the horses:(

[Dr. Doolittle]

(Yes, we've been over and over this), but it's obvious that the course design plays a role in how the courses (and horses) are ridden; clearly, there is more "adjustment" required to jump the combos in the more recent videos--and these are some *very* competent riders we're seeing here, so I'm not thinking that the quality of riding has deteriorated! (Or the quality of the horses, for that matter...)

:sigh:

(Maybe I'm getting old, but is rap--even the Will Smith vanilla kind played here--REALLY appropriate as background music for eventing videos? :rolleyes:)

[austin]

friends with Jill. would love to see her on Nirvana.

[CoolMeadows]

Lol, Dr. Doolittle. I didn't know there was music on that video, I generally have my laptop on mute. Sorry!

There seems to be too much adjustment required now for what has traditionally been a very forward phase of eventing. Sure, there were technical questions before, but they were designed in a way that would make more sense to a horse. Now? Not so much. The very forward two stride pair of verticals to a downhill, choke your horse to death super short five to a blind approach to a corner is just in no way a fair question in my mind. Taking the downhill momentum and going for the four would invite a major chip-style miss and fall when the horse suddenly realizes in that last half a stride that he's been presented with a fence. That is not about rideability, adjustability, boldness or trust. It's just trappy and ugly, and if I were a horse I'd be going, wait! WHAT? WHERE? :confused: Eeek! Talk about stressful and taxing.

[Christa P]

Yes...although there were some hicups here and there...the fact that the horses were being ridden FORWARD allowed the horses to get themselves out of trouble. You do NOT see that today.

I agree with the forward, but it is not just forward, it is FORWARD AND BALANCED, not a racing gallop. the balanced part lets the horses jump out of stride. If they are on thier forehands they will have trouble jumping at any speed.

Christa P

[Dr. Doolittle]

Lol, Dr. Doolittle. I didn't know there was music on that video, I generally have my laptop on mute. Sorry!

There seems to be too much adjustment required now for what has traditionally been a very forward phase of eventing. Sure, there were technical questions before, but they were designed in a way that would make more sense to a horse. Now? Not so much. The very forward two stride pair of verticals to a downhill, choke your horse to death super short five to a blind approach to a corner is just in no way a fair question in my mind. Taking the downhill momentum and going for the four would invite a major chip-style miss and fall when the horse suddenly realizes in that last half a stride that he's been presented with a fence. That is not about rideability, adjustability, boldness or trust. It's just trappy and ugly, and if I were a horse I'd be going, wait! WHAT? WHERE? :confused: Eeek! Talk about stressful and taxing.

Lucky you, in this particular case! :p

And yes, I agree *completely* with your comments; you hit the nail right on the head :yes:

[KBG Eventer]

the rider's job is get the horse into a good balance and then LET IT DO ITS JOB. It's "old school" in the best possible way. it's the horse's job to pick its four legs off the ground and jump - the rider can't do that for it! It's a much more secure feeling for me to be able to tell the horse, "ok I've done everything I can to help you, now I'm going to stay out of your way and you've got to jump the jump" rather than come down to every fence thinking, "okay, wait, wait, wait, ok now jump! PLEASE!"

Just my thought...

Hmmm...I have (luckily) always heard just that! My old trainer used to pound into my head something like 95% of blunders are rider mistakes. I have always heard "Ride the canter, ride the canter, rider the canter..."

[BarbB]

THAT was the eventing that I fell in love with. Happy, forward horses with confident encouraging riders.
When was the last time you saw an ULR pat a horse on course, or wave at the crowd or grinning like a kid after a combination.
And when was the last time you saw a horse with ears pricked, hunting for his next fence and obviously saying...come on, let's go....

Nowdays the riders are grim and determined and the horses are sucked back, careful and stressed.

It is a different sport. Our loss.

[Philosopher]

The second video, it did seem like there were a few "picky" riders, but the problems mostly seemed to stem from horses that were very brave but had no idea what was being asked of them. "Okay, mom, I'll gallop straight at this weird shiny boat . . . doesn't look like a jump to me . . . and she wants me to jump it . . . and I have no clue how but I'll give it a shot . . ." Frankly, I was confused by some of the questions asked, and I know what the pretty colored flags mean. The giant skinny at the bottom of the hill ?! I know it's an accuracy test, but coming out of the none too small, none too tight combination . . .By the time most of the horse and rider combinations got to their spill, the horses looked willing but bewildered from so many confusing, unrewarding fences- not the positive gungho attitude seen in the first video. Just took one (or five) more rapidfire questions to finish them off.

[Dr. Doolittle]

The second video, it did seem like there were a few "picky" riders, but the problems mostly seemed to stem from horses that were very brave but had no idea what was being asked of them. "Okay, mom, I'll gallop straight at this weird shiny boat . . . doesn't look like a jump to me . . . and she wants me to jump it . . . and I have no clue how but I'll give it a shot . . ." Frankly, I was confused by some of the questions asked, and I know what the pretty colored flags mean. The giant skinny at the bottom of the hill ?! I know it's an accuracy test, but coming out of the none too small, none too tight combination . . .By the time most of the horse and rider combinations got to their spill, the horses looked willing but bewildered from so many confusing, unrewarding fences- not the positive gungho attitude seen in the first video. Just took one (or five) more rapidfire questions to finish them off.


Yes, excellent insights and observations :yes:

[boppin along]

FACINATING VIDEO!
I have been trying to figure out for months since all of the accidents.... what is going on and what is the difference in the "Past" eventing life?

Well, it was like a light going off, watching this video, first of all, the riders are NOT at all as good as the riders of today,..... BUT, the horses are FANTASTIC and completely different than the horse of today, in being that they look like TB for one BUT, they are all so forward regardless of the atrocious rides they are given! This was an eye opener but also, the fences are so much smaller and inviting. Trufthfully, they look like Training fences of today.
So, the breakdown is, go back to the "old style" of eventing, it is still a thrill and the best part is that the horses and riders SURVIVE .

[arnika]

I'll take three....................:winkgrin: Sassy Reason, Our Busby and Mr. Maxwell please! I'd forgotten just how wonderful they were. Nirvana was such a good girl wasn't she? You can see her determination.

I mostly noticed the courses had no turns to blind jumps, at least 4-5 strides after bigger sweeping turns. The horses got a good look in advance of each fence, even the downhill ones. The riders could let the reins out because there were no super-skinnies as the second element of a complex. Even the one skinny shown was wide, had two wide wings and was open to view. Not anything like the 4 foot wide jump in the middle of a grove of trees that used two trees as the wings here in FL!:eek:

Thank you for the walk down memory lane.

[lstevenson]

Great video. The riders back then could just gallop in balance to the fences because the course design was much more horse friendly. Yes, there were corners and skinnies, but back then the course designers would allow riders to keep the flow even through tests like that. The horses looked much happier.

And it's so nice to see riders just letting the horses do their jobs, instead of micromanaging every detail.

[arnika]

I had forgotten to add something from the second video.

WTF was that stupid line to the brushy corner at 4:38-44? That flower garden crap that completely stopped any deviation of approach? Absolutely ridiculous!

Sorry for being cranky but that is the epitome of horrible course design.

[TXAuburnTiger]

THANK YOU for posting the video of the "good old days," which were not that long ago! That was my era of eventing (the first go-round when I was young and brave...I like being a lower level adult amateur now!). Mark Combs (great cowboy style in the video over the corners with Solomon!) was my first coach and I now remember who instilled the "cowboy" in me! I think we all need a little bit of that and it's been lost in all of the micromanaging. Thank you for the walk down memory lane!!

[yventer]

I agree with the forward, but it is not just forward, it is FORWARD AND BALANCED, not a racing gallop. the balanced part lets the horses jump out of stride. If they are on thier forehands they will have trouble jumping at any speed.

Christa P

Thank you, Christa!

The horse's BALANCE is key, here. A horse needs to push its forehand up and back and hindquarters under to achieve an appropriate bascule over the jump. If the horse is just running at speed (which usually means they're on their forehand), they need to be balanced back before the fence by the rider, if the horse won't do it themself. This comes back to what Jim W wrote in his article on collection and submission. Will or does your horse know how to do this? There are only probably a handful of riders in the world who can consistently re-balance their horses the last stride or two and more importantly *put* their horses at a "spot" XC. Can you do that? Can your horse?

Most of us must bring our horses back up off their forehand well before the jump, and it might take 10 strides or 30 strides. Once the horse is again balanced, ride FORWARD in that balanced state to the jump. If you just take back and never put your leg opn before the jump, that's "riding backwards"! Balance in your approach, and then ride forward in that balance!! And the balanced state can be at 250, 350, 550 mpm or more. And of course, a very lucky few of us have horses that will take care of it all no matter what we do - give that horse lots of carrots! But don't you want to know how to ride your NEXT horse?

Slow does not mean you're balanced, nor does fast mean you're UNbalanced. It's a fine line, and knowing and feeling it only comes from proper understanding of how a horse works when it jumps, how the rider can influence that for good or bad, and EXPERIENCE, gained safely with competent instruction.

[BarbB]

Slow does not mean you're balanced, nor does fast mean you're UNbalanced. .

:yes:

[KBG Eventer]

That is a really cool video, and I like the music. :)

I am sorry for not reading the entire thread yet but I made some observations. I am not even going to claim to have some great theory about all the recent events or have a problem solving solution. Truthfully? I read what people say on here, read articles and such on USEA/other magazines, and listen to what my event trainers and their other students say. I have yet to form my own solid opinion on the matter. I prefer to keep my big mouth shut on here so nothing stupid spews out. :yes:

My few "observations"...

There ARE some tricky combinations on that video. The triple corner is just one I watched very hard.

The jumps look more natural

They are going more forward

[lbennet6]

I watched the second video through squinted eyes...grimacing...I saw a lot of unfair course design...I didn't like that fence towards the end where they were jumping a huge log downhill and then it seem like the riders were not given enough time to collect themselves or their horses before that skinny...and I have no idea what that corner thing was...it seemed like that was not any approach to that fence...

I agree the riders and horses look much happier in the first video.

[Beverley]

Dr. Doolittle: "so I'm not thinking that the quality of riding has deteriorated! (Or the quality of the horses, for that matter..."

Hmmm. I dunno. Look at both videos again and look 'just' at the riders' legs. Can be an eye opener as to what is happening in the rest of the picture.

Course design in latter video, yeah, pretty dumb in my opinion. BUT, that doesn't account for the way some of the riders are riding their approaches, either a death grip, or leaning back with hands up against their chests with long reins...balance issue. I've ridden some horses (mostly in jumping) that DID require you to keep a deep seat til takeoff, but that doesn't need to mean lack of balance or horse strung out.

But gee I must be getting perilously close to adulthood...90s eventing seems so new and recent to me...

[silver2]

As someone who grew up eventing in the 80s that looks like fun. Makes me want to go gallop around :)

The courses today scare the shit out of me, and that's just walking or watching other people, I have no desire to actually ride them, not even Prelim. Maybe it's because I can't hang onto my reins for more than three water elements jumps in a row, I dunno.

eta, I wouldn't have jumped that duck either. wtf?? When did jumps stop looking like fences and start looking like random objects that fell out of a circus plane? Unless you regularly hunt across a mini-golf course I can't see what relation this has to actual cross-country riding.

[Beverley]

...I didn't like that fence towards the end where they were jumping a huge log downhill and then it seem like the riders were not given enough time to collect themselves or their horses before that skinny...

Who thunk up skinnies, anyway? In this particular combination, the last element, the skinny, is posing a technical/precision question that has no business being asked on the cross country phase.

Like I've said more than once, nothing more than stadium jumping outside the stadium. Not appropriate for xc, which is supposed to test endurance, boldness, bravery.

[faluut42]

Can you say the 2 extremes? The horses and riders look like they are having fun (probably because they are), are in balance and when they have a "oops" moment, it doesnt turn into a fall or a refusal like the second video. Its a little hop skip and they are on there way. A far cry from now a days. I always thought that the kicking and pulling looks icky (yes i used that exact word...icky). It doesnt look fun when you are yanking the horse around the course.

I am in the 'newer' generation of eventing where its find you distance, look for your distance. Well now I can ALWAYS see when I am going to screw up. Not a fun thing.

I have (or had, just retired him due to a injury) a 17h (often maistaken for 17.2h+) retired GP jumper. When I evented him at novice I was always fighting him around the course trying to stay in the novice pace and find the distance. This horse had a HUGE stride and did not want to stay in a SJ canter around the xc course so there was a lot of fighting not a lot of right distances. So it was not a pretty course to watch.

So when I moved up to training I let him stay at the pace he that was comfortable for him (a slow gallop, but really because he was a giant was a prelim pace).WOW was that a diffrence. The course was so much fun and so fluid:D. It felt like the first video (but much smaller of course) I always had to trot a stretch on course to make the time but as soon as we picked up a gallop, it was easy to find the right rythm.

If that is not a tesament to the 'finding the right gallop or seeing the distance' discusion I dont know what is.

The fact that the horses today are refusing fences should be a wake up call... Horses that have enough heart to compete in the upper levels 'lock on' to jumps, they dont refuse them unless they dont think they can jump it.

[JULSCARVER]

OK, I'm "just" a dressage rider with admittedly no knowledge of jumping. Have been lurking on the eventing forum just looking at everyone's views of recent events.
The thing I noticed most was the riders' balance. No matter what hiccup occurred, they stayed right with the horse and as someone else mentioned, got out of their way.
I didn't have to "cringe" watching every jump waiting for some terrible fall. Thanks for posting - very enjoyable.

[Fergs]

Yep - that the one! As far as legalities - I tracked down someone from the out of business captain edgars group a few years ago and he had no problems with me posting it on the internet for no-profit entertainment... Just an informal conversation with him, so no legal paperwork to show for it, but I didn't take the copyright issue for granted...

Emily

Captain Edgars! Now that takes me back. I totally owned this video. Thanks so much for posting it. Some great riders past and present on there (Mark Combs!!).

As for the Craig article, I think he's just plain wrong on the distances issue. Meaning, of course, that Jim is right! It is much safer (not to mention more enjoyable) to ride a length and cadence of stride rather than a distance on the ground in relation to an obstacle.

[IFG]

I'm on dial-up at home, so without spending all day, I only saw the first half of the first video.

I am a lower-level smurf, but I used to go to the big events like Chesterland and Groton House to watch. Watching those rides is what drew me to eventing.

This video shows the feeling. I see FREEDOM when watching the video. Horses and riders are having fun.

Now things are so technical at the upper levels. As a spectator, it just isn't as much fun to watch. I might as well go watch show jumping. I can be a lot more comfortable at that venue anyhow. At the lower levels, I think that it is still fun, but the upper levels seem to have lost the Joie de vivre.

Am I alone. Have others lost the eagerness to go out and watch these really technical, completely planned-out (as opposed to free-wheeling), highly controlled rides?

[Hony]

Lovely video of soft, balanced riders jumping out of rhythm over courses whose technical questions were actual questions that made sense and not nonsensical rhythm-disrupting traps that seem to have no correct answer but kick like hell, now rip your horse's face off. A far cry from this more recent video. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DvJVTHk2m74)

It's like comparing apples to oranges. The first video shows all the good rides, the second all the bad rides. Bad rides are usually bad because they are ridden backward. I think if we had a picture of the bad rides from the events in the first video we might have an entirely different impression.

[DizzyMagic]

It's like comparing apples to oranges. The first video shows all the good rides, the second all the bad rides. Bad rides are usually bad because they are ridden backward. I think if we had a picture of the bad rides from the events in the first video we might have an entirely different impression.

Actually, I don't think it's totally apples and oranges, though I would love to see a collection of "good" rides just like that second video for an easier comparison. The big difference for me is the looks on the horses faces. Even before the falls (or stops), on approach to the fences, the horses look tense, worried, confused...

The video I posted is from a bloopers tape, which is fun and hilarious to watch, even though it's basically a collection of falls and mishaps. The mishaps in the video posted by Cool are painful to watch. Even the snippet where the horse just stopped and refused the fence is awful. Those are NOT happy horses who made a little bobble or jumped a rider well out of the tack - it's horrible to watch them being asked unfair or just plain stupid questions!

I mean, seriously, who's bright idea is it to put grey paint on a funky-shaped jump in the water?? How's the horse supposed to figure out where to take off when there's so little distinction between the color of the jump and the water it's sitting in??

Compare that to Stephen and Sassy Reason jumping through that big table in the water to the skinny thing - she jumped huge over the table, which mucked up the striding, which caused her to hit the skinny with her knee (and because he's Stephen, he stays right in the middle of her back), but the mare is never in doubt about what's being asked, her ears are up, face happy happy and alert, and she never wavers. Even if he'd been popped out of the tack on that ride, it most likely wouldn't have been ugly to watch, specifically because the horse looks so happy and confident - I get the sense that she would have taken herself to than next fence and kept right on jumping.

Someone mentioned the joie de vivre seems to be gone... maybe that's a broad brush stroke, but it sure does feel right to me.

Emily

[Sannois]

some lovely forward smooth rides? Even as early as 8 years ago. I Popped in my Rolex 2000 tape last night after reading this.
My god, What a difference.
Bruce and Eagle! WOW, David and Rattle and hum and Giltedge, KAren and Prince Panache. Even Abigail and JAcob. AND Kimmy and Jake!
So lovely, He was STRONG but she still was so polished..
And Blyth tait and Toddy! Awesome. Marks horses was just not right, he even said that later in the interview, So he LOPED him around the course.
Gave him a lovely ride, it looked like a hunter round.
Look at all there hands and body positions. Hands low, forward position,
Slipping reins, Riding at a consistant rhythm. It seemed alot different from some of the rides I witnessed at Rolex this year.
Just an observation. I haven't even watched any earlier ones in a while!

[JER]

Am I alone. Have others lost the eagerness to go out and watch these really technical, completely planned-out (as opposed to free-wheeling), highly controlled rides?

Yes.

And it's not even about going out -- I don't even like watching on DVD.

I don't think it's about technical so much as it is about courses that the forward-moving horse can't possible understand without a very didactic rider onboard. That idiotic boat on the 2nd video -- the horses couldn't see the dang thing. Or that lovely but misguided duck. The horse didn't identify it as a jump. For all we know, he looked around for his next obstacle, saw the duck and said "That's not a jump."

The old-school courses required a lot of technical riding but the courses rewarded technical forward riding a la Ginny Leng, Lucinda Green or Mark Todd (all very technical riders) and you got in trouble when you started riding backwards.

[DizzyMagic]

For those of you who had trouble watching the first link I posted, I uploaded the clip to youtube. See if it works better for you. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22UruEhIo1w

[DizzyMagic]

Well, I decided I had to pop in my own copy of that tape - what a wonderful collection of rides... :)

some lovely forward smooth rides? Even as early as 8 years ago. I Popped in my Rolex 2000 tape last night after reading this.
My god, What a difference.
Bruce and Eagle! WOW, David and Rattle and hum and Giltedge, KAren and Prince Panache. Even Abigail and JAcob. AND Kimmy and Jake!
So lovely, He was STRONG but she still was so polished..
And Blyth tait and Toddy! Awesome. Marks horses was just not right, he even said that later in the interview, So he LOPED him around the course.
Gave him a lovely ride, it looked like a hunter round.
Look at all there hands and body positions. Hands low, forward position,
Slipping reins, Riding at a consistant rhythm. It seemed alot different from some of the rides I witnessed at Rolex this year.
Just an observation. I haven't even watched any earlier ones in a while!

[Sannois]

Well, I decided I had to pop in my own copy of that tape - what a wonderful collection of rides... :)
Really wonderful wern't they!
I got happy tears watching them!

[RunForIt]

For those of you who had trouble watching the first link I posted, I uploaded the clip to youtube. See if it works better for you. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22UruEhIo1w

OMG!:D :cry: :D I just got to see Mr. Maxwell...and DAMN - Epic Win!!!

Thank you , thank you, thank you...there are reasons to believe.

[RunForIt]

"... What do you guys see when you watch that video?"

I see what Bruce described in an interview - putting your hands down and finding a galloping rhythm and going with it. Lovely! None of the yanking and hauling, stops and starts you see today.
Thanks for the memories!

flutie

the rides were so very different - almost relaxed, but so "right there" - don't have the words yet to explain what I saw that all those horses and riders seem to have in common - something's that's quite different from today's UL event rides. :confused:

EDITED TO ADD:
just reread some of the earlier posts - Robby Johnson had a comment early on about the jumps looking "achievable"...maybe I didn't have that scary, sick feeling of wondering if a rider was going to make it, or a horse get hurt, that seems to automatically be part of watching UL events for me these days. Maybe it was ME that was relaxed watching these rides, maybe it was me.

[Fergs]

Compare that to Stephen and Sassy Reason jumping through that big table in the water to the skinny thing - she jumped huge over the table, which mucked up the striding, which caused her to hit the skinny with her knee (and because he's Stephen, he stays right in the middle of her back), but the mare is never in doubt about what's being asked, her ears are up, face happy happy and alert, and she never wavers. Even if he'd been popped out of the tack on that ride, it most likely wouldn't have been ugly to watch, specifically because the horse looks so happy and confident - I get the sense that she would have taken herself to than next fence and kept right on jumping.


I agree with you 100% on Steve and Sassy, although FYI Sassy was a gelding. :winkgrin:

[vbunny]

To answer the question of what is the difference between then and now, read Jimmy article. Horses are losing their initiative (read personal safety features) and are waiting to be told what to do. Back then 2 minds were working to get things right and now its more like one mind waiting to do what its told. If the horse waits to hear exactly what to do and the rider gets things wrong, by the time that has been found out it will be too late to do anything about it.

[CoolMeadows]

I think that riders feel forced to have to be so controlling and demanding. In at least two cases on the second video, there were questions asked that would make no sense and be very dangerous to a horse left to its own devices. If we look at each combination through a horse's eyes, we think about how they see it, how they process it and how they would likely answer it. A blind presentation to a corner after a bending downhill line is logically unanswerable if we think like horses left to themselves, given that at the bottom of the hill physics forces them to be very on their forehand, it is set on a half stride, and given that their vision is such that one side of the fence has already disappeared to them before the usual time it disappears at take off. They have to rely on their riders here and their riders have to be perfect to the last inch.

In the case of the skinny at the bottom of the hill after a log, it still seems that it would be disasterous to let the horse sort it out. While it's not a blind approach, it's set dead on a half stride just like the corner was, and being a skinny set at the bottom of a hill, you have to wonder again how much the way a horse's vision works comes into play. They are trying to rebalance from the big log down a steep hill with heads up a bit for balance. Given that they have monocular vision, it seems that by the time they've had a chance to see the skinny (do skinnies disappear from their view sooner than a full length fence?), they are already at take-off and truly jumping blind.

Also agree that the duck that blended in with the water was ridiculous. Yes, big change in the riders between the videos but perhaps they don't have a choice with some of the questions asked.

[DizzyMagic]

I agree with you 100% on Steve and Sassy, although FYI Sassy was a gelding. :winkgrin:

See, now I have spent the whole time I've known Stephen believing that was a mare, and thinking how cool it was that a mare won Burghley!! I was so convinced I actually called and asked! What a total dweeb I am! :o

[Fergs]

See, now I have spent the whole time I've known Stephen believing that was a mare, and thinking how cool it was that a mare won Burghley!! I was so convinced I actually called and asked! What a total dweeb I am! :o

Ha haaa!!! That is the best thing I've heard all day. I really admire your pluck!

Regardless of gender, Sassy was an awesome horse. I was lucky to have known him (and Steve), although our nickname for him sometimes was Sassy-No-Reason.

Tee hee!

[RunForIt]

Boy I agree with you. I only had a decent eye for a distance when I was jumping 4-6 horses a day....and I believe that is true for most people. So expecting the average event rider to have that kind of eye...especially at the lower level is only going to create riders who pick at their horse searching for that elusive spot!

If you learn what a good canter feels like...and do not jump ahead of your horse...the distance will work itself out anyway.

I figured out with Buddy, then Maddux that the key to me getting to fences "right", was to get the right canter rhythm and then keep it and WAIT. To this day, that's how I ride. It works.

[nirvana002]

gosh..haven't seen that in ages. I remember how thrilled and honored I felt to be on there with the "big guns"! Not my best piece of riding, mind you...but damn, was she one hell of a xc machine!!!! I miss those days...you will never know how much. Thanks for the laugh and the cry...memories..great ones!

OH... thanks for pointing out how young I was...hahaha..that was Essex '92..I was 17, it was the weekend of my SR prom....which I obviously didn't go to! Where does time go?????

Jill

[RunForIt]

Dizzy,

I LOVED the music - immediately went to itunes and One Perfect Moment is now in the ipod.

I wish I could watch more stuff just like this - made me want to go out and EVENT! :D :cool:

[DizzyMagic]

In the case of the skinny at the bottom of the hill after a log, it still seems that it would be disasterous to let the horse sort it out. While it's not a blind approach, it's set dead on a half stride just like the corner was, and being a skinny set at the bottom of a hill, you have to wonder again how much the way a horse's vision works comes into play. They are trying to rebalance from the big log down a steep hill with heads up a bit for balance. Given that they have monocular vision, it seems that by the time they've had a chance to see the skinny (do skinnies disappear from their view sooner than a full length fence?), they are already at take-off and truly jumping blind.


What an interesting question about the skinny and horses' vision... I wonder if a vet with specialty knowledge about their vision could answer that question. I wonder if such experts ought to be involved in fence design and construction at the highest levels, where the size and complexity of obstacles makes it so much more damaging when the horse misses.

Emily

[DizzyMagic]

Dizzy,

I LOVED the music - immediately went to itunes and One Perfect Moment is now in the ipod.

I wish I could watch more stuff just like this - made me want to go out and EVENT! :D :cool:

Hee - it always made me want to go out and event too! The song is perfect - I've always thought this line was especially appropriate for eventing : "And I don't care if you spend my money, someone might as well, honey."

I tried to track down the band that wrote the song, but never was able to do so.

Emily

[Sannois]

gosh..haven't seen that in ages. I remember how thrilled and honored I felt to be on there with the "big guns"! Not my best piece of riding, mind you...but damn, was she one hell of a xc machine!!!! I miss those days...you will never know how much. Thanks for the laugh and the cry...memories..great ones!

OH... thanks for pointing out how young I was...hahaha..that was Essex '92..I was 17, it was the weekend of my SR prom....which I obviously didn't go to! Where does time go?????

Jill
At Rolex.. Compliments of my hubby. And some great pics too. But alas before the digital age, and I am so bad at computer. You and That mare were an inspiring combination! :yes:

[DizzyMagic]

gosh..haven't seen that in ages. I remember how thrilled and honored I felt to be on there with the "big guns"! Not my best piece of riding, mind you...but damn, was she one hell of a xc machine!!!! I miss those days...you will never know how much. Thanks for the laugh and the cry...memories..great ones!

OH... thanks for pointing out how young I was...hahaha..that was Essex '92..I was 17, it was the weekend of my SR prom....which I obviously didn't go to! Where does time go?????

Jill

No kidding - that mare was phenomenal. I thought for sure when I first watched it that you guys were gonna have a bath, but nope, not if you're as agile as she was. Maybe not the "best" riding, but the evident joy and partnership between you makes that one of my favorite bits. You can see how much she loved her job, and geez, was she ever good at it! I had my computer with me at Fair Hill a few years ago, showed the video to a few riders there who also enjoyed the trip down memory lane. Kim Severson, though, made me back up and show your ride twice - she was like "Where do you *get* a horse like that!?"

As for the senior prom... glad to see you had your priorities in order!! :)

Emily

[nirvana002]

No kidding - that mare was phenomenal. I thought for sure when I first watched it that you guys were gonna have a bath, but nope, not if you're as agile as she was. Maybe not the "best" riding, but the evident joy and partnership between you makes that one of my favorite bits. You can see how much she loved her job, and geez, was she ever good at it! I had my computer with me at Fair Hill a few years ago, showed the video to a few riders there who also enjoyed the trip down memory lane. Kim Severson, though, made me back up and show your ride twice - she was like "Where do you *get* a horse like that!?"

As for the senior prom... glad to see you had your priorities in order!! :)

Emily

AWHHHH..now you guys are making me cry all over again...I am such a sap when it comes to my girl! The answer is, yo don't find a horse like that..I think it is part of the problem with the sport today...you MAKE a horse like that. You develope a bond and a partnership..you take the good with the bad (dressage was always fun with her..heheh) ... You get to know eachother inside and out. I know that horse better than I know myself sometimes. She can not be duplicated..but why try...I am the luckiest person alive to have had that kind of partnership and her spirit is the most amazing thing one can ever know. Thanks. I have to go do late night check at the barn tonight, I will make sure I tell her what fans she has...but somehow, I think she already know she is "DA BOMB"

Jill

[austin]

great to see Jill, her fabulous mare, and the others. that is the eventing I grew up with. I was a follower of Lucinda's, who said ride your horse with the proper balance and impulsion and allow them do the rest. always worked for me.

thanks for posting on youtube for the rest of us.

[Hannahsmom]

Am I alone. Have others lost the eagerness to go out and watch these really technical, completely planned-out (as opposed to free-wheeling), highly controlled rides?

NO. I'm there too. I didn't bother to go to Rolex this year. Other than shopping, I no longer enjoy it. This is from someone who used to NEVER miss it. I remember it from the years when they held it in the heat, and before they roped off the XC fences beforehand!

[Sannois]

NO. I'm there too. I didn't bother to go to Rolex this year. Other than shopping, I no longer enjoy it. This is from someone who used to NEVER miss it. I remember it from the years when they held it in the heat, and before they roped off the XC fences beforehand!
ME as well! :(

[nirvana002]

NO. I'm there too. I didn't bother to go to Rolex this year. Other than shopping, I no longer enjoy it. This is from someone who used to NEVER miss it. I remember it from the years when they held it in the heat, and before they roped off the XC fences beforehand!

This is a fun and positive thread that could turn into something productive about the change in the sport. Please dont ruin it by talking about only wanting to go to Rolex for the shopping, you can go online for all of it! Let us have this thread for the memories we have that are great.
Thanks
Jill Henneberg

[ezmissg]

AWHHHH..now you guys are making me cry all over again...I am such a sap when it comes to my girl! The answer is, yo don't find a horse like that..I think it is part of the problem with the sport today...you MAKE a horse like that. You develope a bond and a partnership..you take the good with the bad (dressage was always fun with her..heheh) ... You get to know eachother inside and out. I know that horse better than I know myself sometimes. She can not be duplicated..but why try...I am the luckiest person alive to have had that kind of partnership and her spirit is the most amazing thing one can ever know. Thanks. I have to go do late night check at the barn tonight, I will make sure I tell her what fans she has...but somehow, I think she already know she is "DA BOMB"

Jill


I love your thought here! Regardless of how we spend our time with our equine partners, isn't the relationship described above what we strive for?

Jill's message above illustrates perfectly why I chose the quote I use for my signature! :sadsmile:

[CarrieK]

Thanks for putting that on Youtube; for whatever reason I wasn't able to access it before.

I've enjoyed reading the comments here. It's also good to know that I'm seeing what others are, too! At least my eye is educated! :D

[DizzyMagic]

How about this one, from last year's Rolex...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1eiBcINTF4&feature=related

What do you guys see when you watch this one? I mean, apart from everyone's favorite pony... :D

[vineyridge]

I watched the old video on Youtube three times, and it made me happy every time.

What's different? Well, for one thing, to my uneducated eye, the course designers used the terrain in a totally different way than they do now. There seemed to be a lot more jumping up and down REAL hills, instead of golf course bumps.

It looked like the jumps were lower, or if they weren't lower, they appeared to be lower and more inviting. They actually looked like something you might run into in a day foxhunting. They were not terrifyingly artificial.

When you've got dial up and it takes three hours to download 3.5 minutes, the video had damned better be good. This one was. Watching good horses and well controlled (for the most part :)) riders having fun in a natural setting is not at all what big time eventing seems to have become these days.

[pony grandma]

I did the lower level stuff back in the days when Bruce was younger than everyone else! Those 'were' the days. My memories are very bright. At Rolex this year I had to treat myself to the 30th anniversary DVD. I still have the signed poster of BD from 1978.

What a wonderful video to pass around and what a great thread to read entirely. Hey I have an idea, a retirement community for all of us some day -- what a front porch discussion that would be! No one else shares the memories and heart beats that we do. Maybe in Lexington so we can use that annual pass they sell for the 2-3 things going on every weekend there - and be volunteers at all the venues. The Golden Girls and Boys!

I have watched this video repeatedly - it is a real feel good, that jump out of the gallop stride excitement. It's all about the rhythm.

[CoolMeadows]

How about this one, from last year's Rolex...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1eiBcINTF4&feature=related

What do you guys see when you watch this one? I mean, apart from everyone's favorite pony... :D

Teddy the WonderPony looks very positive, very fit and very sound. KOC rides every jump out of stride and out of a good rhythm. The couple of times the clip showed a need for balancing up and a technical ride, KOC balanced up early so she could still ride forward to the jump and turned as wide as she possibly could for a good approach. It didn't look like there were any stupid questions asked in that clip at all. Also, just to my eyes - but KOC's saddle position and leg are closer to that of the riders in the first video than those in the second. Someone wrote about modern saddles holding riders in - was that Denny? That didn't appear to be the case in the second video since many looked very loose. The saddles also looked further forward on the horses (possibly affecting overall balance of horse and rider?) which may have something to do with modern saddles. The current trend of curved panels on saddles can make fitting them to a Tb type (sometimes any type) difficult. Even if not too wide, my experience has been that even when the banana saddles are in the right place on a Tb back, they still sometimes tip and rock. Pulling them further up locks them onto shoulders and makes them feel more stable, but puts the rider in a totally different balance over the horse. Eh, probably too far fetched but it's noticable.

[nirvana002]

Told GP (nirvana) all about how she was still famous last night...and just as I suspected she took about 10 seconds of it and walked right through me as if to say...yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, now..give me my damn hay!hahah.Thanks again for posting that video..too much fun..have gotten a bunch of phone calls about it

Jill

[grayarabpony]

I only watched part of the video before stopping to comment... :lol: Lord, Molokai was amazing on course wasn't he?! Amazing. And that was a heck of a jump into the water by Nirvana II. That mare was just like a cat!

[Bobthehorse]

FACINATING VIDEO!
I have been trying to figure out for months since all of the accidents.... what is going on and what is the difference in the "Past" eventing life?

Well, it was like a light going off, watching this video, first of all, the riders are NOT at all as good as the riders of today,..... BUT, the horses are FANTASTIC and completely different than the horse of today, in being that they look like TB for one BUT, they are all so forward regardless of the atrocious rides they are given! This was an eye opener but also, the fences are so much smaller and inviting. Trufthfully, they look like Training fences of today.
So, the breakdown is, go back to the "old style" of eventing, it is still a thrill and the best part is that the horses and riders SURVIVE .

What are you talking about?! Those were not atrocious rides, and they are no better or worse than the riders of today (only different). The fences are not even sort of Training level, they are not that much smaller or easier....just designed to be more inviting.

[billiebob]

Jill, please give your girlie a bucket of peppermints from me. What a mare! And it's great to know you still have her (I wouldn't give her up for anything!).

[Vuma]

FACINATING VIDEO!

Well, it was like a light going off, watching this video, first of all, the riders are NOT at all as good as the riders of today,......

Haven't seen the second video, but most of the riders I saw in the first were quality riders. One thing that stuck out to me, if you watch most of them very closely, the riders are seeing their distance and putting their horse there. It's just that they have done it so discretely and softly, AND (most importantly) their horses are kindly responsive; and it works.

[BogyNme]

this is a long thread, so I'm not sure if anyone has already drawn this comparison, but it's interesting to watch that video and compare it to the Red Hills video that was posted shortly after that event

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V0geyBAo2VM


how different they are..

[Vuma]

this is a long thread, so I'm not sure if anyone has already drawn this comparison, but it's interesting to watch that video and compare it to the Red Hills video that was posted shortly after that event

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V0geyBAo2VM


how different they are..

OK, I held my tongue the first time this video went around, but really! There are 38 "collected" canter strides before the first element, and the rest of the video shows even more. Is this a fault of the course? I wasn't there so I cannot say definitively, but I will say it looks to me as if this rider is afraid that if she lets her horse go forward she might end up in GA or the Gulf of Mexico when it's all said and done. Is there a responsiveness problem with that horse? Or is the rider just scared overall? I seriously want to know from someone who was there or knows the pair because I have a hard time imagining that this is the way in which others rode this course.

[BogyNme]

I agree, I'm sure there is a reason why each rider in all the videos we post are riding the way that they are. It's just an interesting comparison.

OK, I held my tongue the first time this video went around, but really! There are 38 "collected" canter strides before the first element, and the rest of the video shows even more. Is this a fault of the course? I wasn't there so I cannot say definitively, but I will say it looks to me as if this rider is afraid that if she lets her horse go forward she might end up in GA or the Gulf of Mexico when it's all said and done. Is there a responsiveness problem with that horse? Or is the rider just scared overall? I seriously want to know from someone who was there or knows the pair because I have a hard time imagining that this is the way in which others rode this course.

[DizzyMagic]

OK, I held my tongue the first time this video went around, but really! There are 38 "collected" canter strides before the first element, and the rest of the video shows even more. Is this a fault of the course? I wasn't there so I cannot say definitively, but I will say it looks to me as if this rider is afraid that if she lets her horse go forward she might end up in GA or the Gulf of Mexico when it's all said and done. Is there a responsiveness problem with that horse? Or is the rider just scared overall? I seriously want to know from someone who was there or knows the pair because I have a hard time imagining that this is the way in which others rode this course.

I have to agree with you... and he does look like he could turn on the afterburners if he really got his head. It says on the video that this was his third Advanced and that she rode it as she chose based on the horse, not the course. Still, it didn't look like much fun!

Emily

[Hony]

I have to agree with you... and he does look like he could turn on the afterburners if he really got his head. It says on the video that this was his third Advanced and that she rode it as she chose based on the horse, not the course. Still, it didn't look like much fun!

Emily

A lot more fun than getting dead though. I guess she did what everyone here is asking for. She took some personal responsiblitiy for her ride and made sure she got through safely based on what she knew of the horse.
I watched the video very closely and there seemed to be enough room to gallop on a bit but only if one's horse were adjustable.
Smart girl if you ask me.

[Rukus]

on the article: I rode with Craig briefly this winter, and it was really my first experience with that kind of "seeing distances" riding (I had had a little bit of it with Bobby Costello preparing for NAYRC last summer, but other than that really none at all). I found it very unsettling to have to constantly make all the decisions of when to take off etc - it took riding to a new level of micromanagement that I had never even imagined before. I had ridden with the same trainer (Suzi Gornall, who was a top top rider in the late 70s and early 80s, two time USCTA rider of the year in the early 80s, etc... so no slouch!) for year before my experience with Craig (and came running back to her afterwards!) and she always teaches all of her students that the rider's job is get the horse into a good balance and then LET IT DO ITS JOB. It's "old school" in the best possible way. it's the horse's job to pick its four legs off the ground and jump - the rider can't do that for it! It's a much more secure feeling for me to be able to tell the horse, "ok I've done everything I can to help you, now I'm going to stay out of your way and you've got to jump the jump" rather than come down to every fence thinking, "okay, wait, wait, wait, ok now jump! PLEASE!"

Just my thought...

I've ridden with Suzie a bit, and she jumped into my head immeaditely when people brought up the seeing a distance debate. She'd always stress getting into a comfortable rythym and letting the horse do his job rather than obsessing over your spot. I used to show in hunters/eq, where distance was everything. That kind of riding is just not practical on a xc course.

[kansasgal]

on the article: I rode with Craig briefly this winter, and it was really my first experience with that kind of "seeing distances" riding (I had had a little bit of it with Bobby Costello preparing for NAYRC last summer, but other than that really none at all). I found it very unsettling to have to constantly make all the decisions of when to take off etc - it took riding to a new level of micromanagement that I had never even imagined before. I had ridden with the same trainer (Suzi Gornall, who was a top top rider in the late 70s and early 80s, two time USCTA rider of the year in the early 80s, etc... so no slouch!) for year before my experience with Craig (and came running back to her afterwards!) and she always teaches all of her students that the rider's job is get the horse into a good balance and then LET IT DO ITS JOB. It's "old school" in the best possible way. it's the horse's job to pick its four legs off the ground and jump - the rider can't do that for it! It's a much more secure feeling for me to be able to tell the horse, "ok I've done everything I can to help you, now I'm going to stay out of your way and you've got to jump the jump" rather than come down to every fence thinking, "okay, wait, wait, wait, ok now jump! PLEASE!"

Just my thought...

Totally agree. I'm not an eventer, but an avid, life long student of horsemanship. What you guys are talking about brings me back to an Ann Kursinski clinic I got to audit about 20 years ago. The clinic was focused on helping event riders improve their stadium jumping, but what she was harping on was EXACTLY what people are noticing in the difference between now and "way back when....."

All the riders in the video look SO balanced, and forward. And they look like they can stay out of the way and let their horses do the jobs they were trained to do.... Just breathtaking to watch, but NOT scary.....

Now, I'm wondering if the new emphasis on dressage might be contributing to the "backward, holding style" that people are talking about?

In dressage, it IS the rider who makes all the decisions, but cross country, and all jumping, you want to be able to get the right pace, but in the end, you ALLOW the horse to find that right distance, and jump in his own balance? Am I totally off base?

Thanks and best wishes from Kansas.

[kansasgal]

So, I guess, no, at least HE wouldn't think that I'm off base. Cool. Ha. Good to know!

[Sannois]

OK, I held my tongue the first time this video went around, but really! There are 38 "collected" canter strides before the first element, and the rest of the video shows even more. Is this a fault of the course? I wasn't there so I cannot say definitively, but I will say it looks to me as if this rider is afraid that if she lets her horse go forward she might end up in GA or the Gulf of Mexico when it's all said and done. Is there a responsiveness problem with that horse? Or is the rider just scared overall? I seriously want to know from someone who was there or knows the pair because I have a hard time imagining that this is the way in which others rode this course.
Just watched that Video. Did she ride the whole course like that.
Talk about no forward. That one jump, Yikes. Far cry from a flowing Cross Country course. :confused::no:

[Fence2Fence]

DizzyMagic, thanks for posting the link. Just great to watch!!

[c_expresso]

OK, I held my tongue the first time this video went around, but really! There are 38 "collected" canter strides before the first element, and the rest of the video shows even more. Is this a fault of the course? I wasn't there so I cannot say definitively, but I will say it looks to me as if this rider is afraid that if she lets her horse go forward she might end up in GA or the Gulf of Mexico when it's all said and done. Is there a responsiveness problem with that horse? Or is the rider just scared overall? I seriously want to know from someone who was there or knows the pair because I have a hard time imagining that this is the way in which others rode this course.

This is what she says on the info about her video
I need to say something after reading many BLOGS about this video and my comments abouth this 1 jump. Red Hill's is no way to blame for what happened on course that Saturday. I road this course at the pace I chose based on my horse!! I have been having control issues with Tantibes and I chose to ride it the way I did. Many riders did get through this course rather well. Clark Montgomery had only a few time faults as did other riders. This was Tantibes 3rd Advanced. So please dont take my ride as a gauge of what the course was like. We love Red Hills and look forward to ding the CIC 3 Star next year.

[Vuma]

c expresso thank you for posting that.

[Fence2Fence]

One of the things I was curious to see was the expression of these horses versus what I've seen at Rolex for the last couple of years, since the intro of the short format. This video shows horses that are eager and keen--bright eyes, forward, flicking ears. They knew the game, they were a player, and part of a team.

What has troubled me about what I've seen at Rolex since the introduction of the short format, (and maybe that's a coincidence), is that the horses are lacking that eager and keen look.

I had wondered if it was my imagination that I was seeing dull, stressed, unhappy horses, and now I know the answer.

It would be great to have more videos to compare.

[Sannois]

One of the things I was curious to see was the expression of these horses versus what I've seen at Rolex for the last couple of years, since the intro of the short format. This video shows horses that are eager and keen--bright eyes, forward, flicking ears. They knew the game, they were a player, and part of a team.

What has troubled me about what I've seen at Rolex since the introduction of the short format, (and maybe that's a coincidence), is that the horses are lacking that eager and keen look.

I had wondered if it was my imagination that I was seeing dull, stressed, unhappy horses, and now I know the answer.

It would be great to have more videos to compare.
Watching my old Videos, OK I think this is a 2000 one I am thinking of.
JW says to the commentator, I just LOVE the way this horse looks through the bridle. Talking about Jacob Two Two. I will say while I did see that look on some of the horse, For sure Teddy, and Comet, There were many that just looked sort of lack luster. There wasn't alot of that let me at that next jump look. Maybe we are crazy, but having been to that competition as many times as I have, I really noticed things like that this year.

[DizzyMagic]

Maybe we are crazy, but having been to that competition as many times as I have, I really noticed things like that this year.

It does seem like a lot of us are struck by really similar "gut" feelings about the way the horses seem now as opposed to then... Doesn't mean we're not crazy... :D

Emily

[Pixie Dust]

That was awesome, did it take you forever to put that together? Thanks for sharing.

I'm kind of confused about some of the comments though. Many of the "riders of today" are the same ones in that clip. I went to Rolex this year and saw some fantastically smooth, beautiful rides. No picking or heavy hands. THey made it look so easy. Maybe you mean "some riders of today" or "many riders of today" ?? The horses looked bright and eager too at Rolex too. ALSO, some of those riders from that thrills and spills video are riders from the apparent "golden years" like early 90's. I don't know it seems like good or bad riding are the same no matter what the decade. And some looked like just bad luck too.

In any case, when I first did some LL horse trials in the 80's it was pretty simple. We worked on dressage and jumping (like grids & stuff) in lessons, but XC was just, pick up a nice hand gallop and do it. We jumped lots of stuff on trail rides though.

[DizzyMagic]

That was awesome, did it take you forever to put that together? Thanks for sharing.


The clip is from a Captain Edgars bloopers video - I get no credit at all except for having good taste in choosing a video! :D

[Gnep]

I see horses that have already been through the steeple chase and road and tracks. They ride easier, they are relaxed and are able to jump at speed, they are setteled.

[3horsemom]

thank you for posting the first video. i see very few kids, including my own, who are taught to ride like that.

[pony grandma]

cross posting -- from the read in Jimmy Wofford's article on Balance in Eventing.

re his steeplechase observations:
"The lesson I draw from all this is that the vast majority of horses can jump well at speed when in a good balance and concentrating on the fence rather than on the rider."

and then later in the article:
"And I totally agree that we as eventers should strive for a horse that is independent in his/her thinking and takes care of themselves. Then, with proper training and time, they are an asset to take care of you! I spend lots of time in the grids and over little cross country fences teaching my young horses to learn how to handle themselves and get over the fences themselves. My job is to get them to the fence in the best balance possible, but their job is to figure out how to safely get over it. I think we are losing some of this independent thinking in the upper level horses. Lots of jumping on loose rein allows them to figure it out for themselves."

This is what we just saw as the difference in the riding in this video.

[DizzyMagic]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted about the video(s) for a really cool discussion! I'm especially glad that you guys thought the "perfect moment" video was as much fun as I do!!

I think it would be at the very least interesting and fun, and possibly even useful, for us to do this again about another video. Someone should make a new thread and post one!! :D

Emily
"It's not a perfect world....But it's still good to be alive! If you don't know by now, you'll probably never understand the way it feels to wanna live....One Perfect Moment!!"

[Sandy M]

cross posting -- from the read in Jimmy Wofford's article on Balance in Eventing.

re his steeplechase observations:
"The lesson I draw from all this is that the vast majority of horses can jump well at speed when in a good balance and concentrating on the fence rather than on the rider."

and then later in the article:
"And I totally agree that we as eventers should strive for a horse that is independent in his/her thinking and takes care of themselves. Then, with proper training and time, they are an asset to take care of you! I spend lots of time in the grids and over little cross country fences teaching my young horses to learn how to handle themselves and get over the fences themselves. My job is to get them to the fence in the best balance possible, but their job is to figure out how to safely get over it. I think we are losing some of this independent thinking in the upper level horses. Lots of jumping on loose rein allows them to figure it out for themselves."

This is what we just saw as the difference in the riding in this video.

If I recall correctly, British show jumper basically said the same thing when someone asked him about his riding after he won the Bronze at the '60 Rome Olympics (paraphrased): "I have to get him to the jump correctly, after that, it's up to the horse."

[Ride2Fly]

Loved that video -- kudos to the representative of Captain Edgar's for agreeing it to be placed on youtube so we could review those examples of "the way it feels to want to live one perfect moment". When the video first came out I called Captain Edgar;) and got the band information. The song is by Ralph Covert and The Bad Examples. Great album and you should still be able to find a copy of the CD somewhere on the internet -- I treasure mine!

[DizzyMagic]

Loved that video -- kudos to the representative of Captain Edgar's for agreeing it to be placed on youtube so we could review those examples of "the way it feels to want to live one perfect moment". When the video first came out I called Captain Edgar;) and got the band information. The song is by Ralph Covert and The Bad Examples. Great album and you should still be able to find a copy of the CD somewhere on the internet -- I treasure mine!

Awesome! I love this song and I've always wanted to know more about the band, but all I could find out was that they were no longer playing. So here it is: http://waterdogmusic.com/artists/badexamples/badisbea.html#

Emily

[Carol Ames]

remember please, the "modern "courses are designed to be technical :sadsmile:rather than "gallop and jump"; thinking that that there would be glance offs, rather than crashes.:eek:; however recombined with\the demise of the full format 3de; the result seems to be many riders and horses with little to no sense of pace; Are there any statistics available of the number/severity of falls in the short format vs.full format?:winkgrin:

[RunForIt]

Awesome! I love this song and I've always wanted to know more about the band, but all I could find out was that they were no longer playing. So here it is: http://waterdogmusic.com/artists/badexamples/badisbea.html#

Emily

I got it off itunes! Great running music too...:yes: :cool:

[TeddyRocks]

I LOVED it by the way... How many of the riders are still competing today? Not neccessarily at "top" level, but competing? How many are still training or coaching? Karen of course... And Bruce? But how about some of the others? Derek Di Grazia? Torrence? Phyllis Dawson? Some of the others? I don't know a lot of the names but WOW... That is who and what we need to see riding NOW... But would some of those riders even want to RIDE around today's courses?

FUN FUN FUN...

[Pocket Pony]

I'm late to the party but loved the videos! What I saw...

riders with longer reins
riders with more forward leg positions
riders riding forward and letting the horse do his or her job
fences that were inviting, not tricky or deceptive
horses that looked like they maybe spent time out in the hunt field

Very nice. I'll never be able to ride like that, sigh. But those videos are a joy to watch! :)