It's Official - Big Brown done after 3 year old year

[DickHertz]

There will never be another super horse...

http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/article/45224.htm

[Drvmb1ggl3]

There will never be another super horse...


Not one with testicles anyway.
I had such high hopes for Funny Cide.

[gubbyz]

This is getting old...bring back the old days when racing was full of pride and not just about the money.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

This is getting old...bring back the old days when racing was full of pride and not just about the money.

I think it was about money then too, there was just more money in racing than breeding.

[Toadie's mom]

In light of all the recent bad publicity, why would you want to risk running a horse that's already had soundness issues? What if he broke down? Instead, let's hope he lasts a few more months just to get to the breeding shed so people can line up to perpetuate the problems.:(

[hitchinmygetalong]

I hope someone wrote a fertility clause into the deal. Remember Cigar?

[miss_critic]

This was the most expected thing all year. I would have expected nothing less from that group of owners.

[texang73]

I think it was about money then too, there was just more money in racing than breeding.

Exactly. But, after having seen his patched together feet... :eek: not sure if he'd lasted that long anyhow!

[Jumpin_Horses]

In light of all the recent bad publicity, why would you want to risk running a horse that's already had soundness issues? What if he broke down? Instead, let's hope he lasts a few more months just to get to the breeding shed so people can line up to perpetuate the problems.:(

exactly, why would you breed a horse (or breed TO a horse) with soundness issues?... :winkgrin: just a thought......

[Glimmerglass]

Let's face it - as cited before by other forum regulars - if he wins the Triple Crown then he retires in June, a la Smarty Jones.

Too much of a risk, not from injury as per say, but from encountering a late bloomer or a bounce and thus taking the luster off his "super horse" PR image.

Now I will give some of the leaders at IEAH praise in their efforts to give back to racing - and this was before Big Brown came onto the scene: they are behind the Ruffian Equine Medical Center in Elmont (http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/thursday/longisland/ny-lihors155686288may15,0,4882595.story)

Schiavo and Michael Iavarone, co-presidents of International Equine Acquisitions Holdings, Inc. of Garden City, are building the facility across from Belmont Park's backstretch and hope to open in September.

But Schiavo, a former Wall Street executive who lives in Woodbury, said the partners also want to have another kind of impact on the racing world. Not long after the two met at Saratoga in 2003 they decided that having a new center with the latest diagnostic and surgical techniques close to the track was a smart business move. It will be the only facility of its type next to a major track, he said. "There are so many procedures that a horse can go through but there was no big equine facility close by," Schiavo said.

The two persuaded Dr. James Hunt, the vet for 60 percent of the horses at Belmont, to run the center. They also signed on as their chief surgeon Dr. Patricia Hogan, who operated on the shattered skull of Smarty Jones before he went on to become the 2004 Derby and Preakness winner.

Beroza, who said he has offered about 90 percent of the same diagnostics and treatments since 1988, questioned whether there is a potential conflict of interest in having racehorse owners also own a medical facility. New York State prohibits a veterinarian from owning a racehorse. "There's a bit of a conflict if they are treating all their own horses as well as treating horses of their competitors," he said.

Schiavo said IEAH owns the land, facility and equipment while Hunt, who has no financial interest in racehorses, will own the practice. "They will not be privy to anything that happens in the hospital," Hunt said. "I have complete control."

Hogan said she, too, requested "very strict rules," including that the two have no knowledge of patients.

The partners bought three lots, including the site of the practice of the late Dr. William O. Reed, who operated on the great filly Ruffian after she broke down during a match race at Belmont in 1975. Schiavo said they named the facility after her because she was a great horse who had raced in New York.

[Texarkana]

Let's face it, you can't really blame the IEAH folks.

Although I do wonder how much trouble I'd get in if next year I started sneaking around the shedrows and chopping off the balls of all the promising three year old colts...

:lol:




(I'm kidding, I'm kidding!)

[JER]

Maybe he'll be the next Storm Cat. :)

(This is why I prefer jump racing.)

[BLBGP]

I can't imagine anyone having respect for breeders who would send their mares to him. Yes, he can run, but those feet....!

[Texarkana]

I can't imagine anyone having respect for breeders who would send their mares to him. Yes, he can run, but those feet....!

I'm going to stick my neck out here. I don't necessarily disagree with you... but my goodness, he's not the first horse to ever develop quarter cracks.

You'd be surprised at the number of other notable stallions, throughbred or not, that also had foot problems. They just weren't as highly publicized.

[TKR]

Buckpasser missed the Derby because of his chronic quarter crack problems. Swaps was another with chronic hoof problems. Would you not want them in the gene pool?
PennyG

[Jumpin_Horses]

I would think it would be in the best interest of TBs if breeders tried to breed a decent foot back into them. perhaps THEN we could raise another "super horse"

[Glimmerglass]

I'm going to stick my neck out here. I don't necessarily disagree with you... but my goodness, he's not the first horse to ever develop quarter cracks.

Yep, he's not the first super fast but with feet issues during the career. Here are two at stud:

Bellamy Road standing (2008) for $10,000 (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stallion-directory/stallion.aspx?stallion_no=6506673)

Bellamy Road demolished the Wood Memorial (G1) field by 17 1/2 lengths, earning a 120 Beyer Speed Figure. He set a new Stakes Record in the Wood and equaled the Track Record that champion Riva Ridge set as a 4-year-old.

Candy Ride standing (2008) for $12,500 (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stallion-directory/stallion.aspx?stallion_no=5902892)

Candy Ride is a World Record Holder for about a Mile in 1:31 flat. Ran a 123 Beyer Speed Figure - the highest of 2003. Set a new track record for 1 1/4 miles while winning the $1,000,000 Grade 1 Pacific Classic in 1:59 flat defeating.

[LaurieB]

This is getting old...bring back the old days when racing was full of pride and not just about the money.


You know, stuff like that is very easy to say when it isn't your money on the line. At his current value, Big Brown's insurance premium is $3,000,000 per year. Do you honestly think you'd pay a bill like that to keep a horse at the track so that fans could enjoy him a little longer? I think there are very, very few people who would.

[Equibrit]

Feet on display in this pic; http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/article/13299241/2008/05/01/12091621.jpg

[Texarkana]

I would think it would be in the best interest of TBs if breeders tried to breed a decent foot back into them. perhaps THEN we could raise another "super horse"

Sticking my neck out one more time, just because I'm feeling argumentative today. Again, I don't necessarily disagree. But, two points:

1)End of the day, it's not the horses with the best hoof wall quality that wins. When they start judging races on the best hoof wall, I'll be the first one booking mares to a mustang stallion.

2)I've known hundreds and hundreds of thoroughbreds with terrific feet. Maybe the problem isn't as genetic as everyone believes. I tend to think the problems with most TB feet is 95% human interference.

[Glimmerglass]

At his current value, Big Brown's insurance premium is $3,000,000 per year.

I thought I read somewhere that IEAH said they are now $5 million in (annual) premiums which I assume has more latitude for payout and coverage.

CNBC May 4 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/24457479)

Because Iavarone already had the insurance premium locked in, the death of the filly in the race, Eight Belles, did not affect his ability to get $17.5 million more worth of insurance for the Preakness.

Regarding breeding, some speculation on value was cited here (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/14/america/RAC-Preakness-Hedging-Horses.php):

Much of that, of course, will come from Big Brown, who turned into a rainmaker with the Derby win. His breeding rights are worth an estimated $70 million — or more — and he is likely to command at least a $100,000 stud fee after he is retired from racing.

Iavarone said he expects to announce a deal worth "several tens of millions" for a share of Big Brown's breeding rights, perhaps as soon as Thursday. That's a hefty return on the reported $3 million investment.

[DickHertz]

Is it wrong to root against him? Obviously, I want him to finish his career sound, but if he lays an egg in the Preakness and doesn't do much the rest of the year, maybe it will deter these types of deals in the future. Unlikely, but you never know.

[Texarkana]

Is it wrong to root against him? Obviously, I want him to finish his career sound, but if he lays an egg in the Preakness and doesn't do much the rest of the year, maybe it will deter these types of deals in the future. Unlikely, but you never know.

Not at all! Heck, I'm not rooting for him. I just wish people would stop acting like he's the first horse in the history of the world to have hoof problems. :lol:

I'm sure Darley and Lane's End aren't laughing too hard about their pre-derby deals on Pyro and War Pass, respectively. But I don't think it will deter them in the future.

[Glimmerglass]

The possible mega financial success for the IHEA certainly makes folks who have been working long and hard in this business look like rubes - which they simply aren't.

Having Wall Street money roll in, pay top dollar for a horse that put in one stellar turf run, and from there potentiall earn a fortune the likes of which have never been seen in racing is amazing at the very least. It certainly is a different picture then you saw with Sackatoga Stables crew and Funny Cide. Yes he was a gelding, but even if he was a stallion with that succes I think the down to earth joy from his diverse owners would've still been there.

I don't like Jess Jackson much but he made his fortune outside of horses, poured a fortune into horses, and with some luck and big checkbook bought early on a very promising and now very successful horse. His joy from Curlin running (and winning) seems more genuine then by comparison with what comes from the IEAH crew. They too seem elated, but in more of a "I just won the lottery" kind of jubliation vs. "did you see what that horse just did - wow" type of appreciation.

Maybe I'm just reading into this too much ....

[dressagetraks]

Quote from head of IEAH, May 10th Blood Horse, page 2501:

As for Big Brown's short- and long-term future, Iavarone said, "As long as he's healthy and wants to keep going on, and it makes sense for us, we're gonna keep going on. He will dictate his future. He's obviously going to be in demand as a stallion. We understand where the real money is in this game, but we also understand we're a racing stable, and the people who've put up the money want the excitement of racing."

:no::no:

[Secretariat2]

"2)I've known hundreds and hundreds of thoroughbreds with terrific feet. Maybe the problem isn't as genetic as everyone believes. I tend to think the problems with most TB feet is 95% human interference."

I was arguing about this with someone recently. I have several OTTBs who had really crappy feet coming off the track. However, after about a year with turnout and a good farrier, they all now have great feet. I wonder how much of it is attributable to the way they are shod and the fact that they are not turned out at all. Maybe also some of the stuff that is done so that they look good and fetch a big price at the yearling sales could be having a bad effect on their feet too.

[Sakura]

Please excuse my obvious ignorance and vast lack of knowledge when it comes to racing in general....

1. What would it cost the breeder and/or owner to not race these horses until they are at least three/four year olds (of course the sooner they run the sooner they bring in the $$$)... So what if it were mandatory for these horses to have a little more maturity before they race?

2. As far as fertility is concerned... Is that a genetic component or caused by "juicing" horses? I am speculating of course that medication and steroid use may play a part...

[facinated]

I hope that the powers that be in racing realize; if it is not to late already, that if the two best three year olds in in America are both cripples there is a real problem. I remember when foxhunters (I am one) used to defend the sport by saying how the fox enjoyed being chased. That did not fly because people are not stupid. Racing needs to change because they are trying to explain away obvious problems with stupid arguments.

[mbj]

Re tb feet, I have 2 that hack cross country and compete as hunters barefoot
Here is their breeding:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/olarry
http://www.pedigreequery.com/snake+lips

I also have seen horses come off the track with not the best feet and with turn-out, different shoeing and nutrition have very nice feet in a year or so.

[Kenike]

Actually, I think in this case it's a good thing he's retiring. Regardless of late bloomers, etc, I would be worried for his feet (if I were his owner)....but it's not my horse, so who knows?

And I also am not entirely convinced that his feet will carry over into his get. Sometimes horses just have crappy feet....again, only time will tell.

[harvestmoon]

I hope that the powers that be in racing realize; if it is not to late already, that if the two best three year olds in in America are both cripples there is a real problem. I remember when foxhunters (I am one) used to defend the sport by saying how the fox enjoyed being chased. That did not fly because people are not stupid. Racing needs to change because they are trying to explain away obvious problems with stupid arguments.

Big Brown is *hardly* a cripple. I believe he has been perfectly sound before and after the Derby, no? I mean, how do we know that these cracks are genetic? Is his sire, Boundary, known for passing this on? How about his dam?

[findeight]

Modern ownership is turning into Wall Street as fancy syndicate and partnership deals on individual horses are turning into buying shares in a group that owns more then one a la the "hedge fund" style of BB's ownership group.

Who speaks for the horse in all that? Does it get an attorney to represent it's best interests?
With no individual in charge with the best interest of the horse (or the breed or even the sport) foremost in mind, who is going to select the pairings for breeding? No benevolent owner to step in and say "no, he rests" or "no. he's not ready" or "yes he will run as a 4yo" either. Just a management group trying to woo investors by showing a profit any way they can.

Maybe Ms Chenery was right a couple of weeks ago when she said we are not breeding race horses anymore, we are breeding sale horses. Of course she also said we will not get another Triple Crown with what we are doing and we will see on that one.

[J Swan]

Sigh - I'll probably be smacked down for writing this..... but he could probably use a different trim. Quarter cracks happen for a reason. But once there - they are a real PITA to get rid of. But I thought that the product used on his hooves was actually quite good - there should not be a reason the horse can't run sound with that stuff on his hooves.

I would not consider quarter cracks an unsoundness - not for breeding purposes.

By the way - I've seen plenty of TB's with wonderful hooves. I have, on the other hand, seen plenty of really crappy farrier work that turns the nicest hooves into quite a mess. (shoes or unshod - doesn't matter)

Runs and ducks for cover before folks throw rotten tomatoes.....



Feet on display in this pic; http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/article/13299241/2008/05/01/12091621.jpg

[Nikki^]

Would the owners be responsible and breed Big Brown to mares that are known for passing on strong, healthy feet? Am I in fantasy land?:confused:

If I owned Big Brown I would only breed him to mares that are known for passing on healthy feet.

[findeight]

Please excuse my obvious ignorance and vast lack of knowledge when it comes to racing in general....

1. What would it cost the breeder and/or owner to not race these horses until they are at least three/four year olds (of course the sooner they run the sooner they bring in the $$$)... So what if it were mandatory for these horses to have a little more maturity before they race?

2. As far as fertility is concerned... Is that a genetic component or caused by "juicing" horses? I am speculating of course that medication and steroid use may play a part...

#1. Cost varies but would be at least 10k a year for feed, vet, farrier and a place to call home just to keep it. Don't forget the stud fee and the cost to maintain the mare to even get it on the ground. Also don't forget the breeders don't keep them, they sell them as yearlings to make room for the next crop. Sale prices go from 15k to millions. It's fine to say they should wait but what do you want owners to do with them? Who pays? Right now, the majority of big money races are for the 3 YOs. A person who has tied up 200k or so in even a modest horse by the time they are pushing 3 is not going to want to go after smaller purses and less glory while waiting 2 more years at an increasing amount of $$ as training starts.

2. Fertility may be genetic or due to a number of factors including foalhood illness or a physical problem. Although "juicing" might have some effect on fertility, it is really unfair to assume some of the great duds in the breeding shed, like Cigar, were loaded...and just as wrong to assume one with numerous progeny were not.

[Barnfairy]

So...about that Big Brown stud deal --that is the topic that started this thread, isn't it?-- ...it fell through (http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/article/45250.htm).

But don't look for BB to race next year:


“Unfortunately, we couldn't come to terms on a stud deal for Big Brown prior to the Preakness as we had hoped,” [IEAH Stables co-president Michael Iavarone] said. “Legal issues and time constraints proved too much to overcome, and we will revisit all options following the Preakness.

...

Iavarone said May 14 he believes there is no chance Big Brown will race as a 4-year-old.

[JHUshoer20]

Feet on display in this pic; http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/article/13299241/2008/05/01/12091621.jpg
For an even better look check this one out
http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-brown-most-famous-feet-in-derby.html
George

[Glimmerglass]

So...about that Big Brown stud deal --that is the topic that started this thread, isn't it?-- ...it fell through (http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/article/45250.htm)

It was to be expected that nobody is going to pony up $40M+ for a horse that has only won the FL Derby and Kentucky Derby to date. Not even Sheik Mo is going to toss crazy dollars out there like that for the unproven. The Coolmore folks aren't either. If he wins the TC, then there are opportunities for a mega stud deal.

[hessy35]

I'm kind of apathetic about Big Brown. He's a good horse, but he has no real competition, which bothers me. I don't want a horse winning the Triple Crown that isn't fighting for it. He just happens to be the best horse in a bad year of 2/3year olds. When Barbabo ran he had all kinds of talent chasing his tail and he hands down beat them soundly. That’s what I want to see in a Superhorse..

[bobbybobby]

talent was no different for big brown than for barbaro !!!!!! both share extreme talent....neither had to face seattle slew or secretariat etc....dont knock big brown just because you are a barbaro fan....no one has won the triple crown in a long time.....enjoy the ride .....

[merrygoround]

I've known hundreds and hundreds of thoroughbreds with terrific feet. Maybe the problem isn't as genetic as everyone believes. I tend to think the problems with most TB feet is 95% human interference.

Agreed, and only time will tell if they've gotten a proper balance job. Too bad he can't go barefoot for 9mo. ;)

[hessy35]

talent was no different for big brown than for barbaro !!!!!! both share extreme talent....neither had to face seattle slew or secretariat etc....dont knock big brown just because you are a barbaro fan....no one has won the triple crown in a long time.....enjoy the ride .....

Big Brown is a nice horse, but he has no one chasing him that is as nice .... no competition... If you can point them out then please do. Barbaro had Bernadini, Brother Derek..etc. I'm not just talking about Barbaro either (because I’m a fan as you put it). I just don't see a whole lot of talent out there in 08 - other than Big Brown.

[findeight]

Re BB's ownership..

There is no single owner. He is part of a group of horses available as a package-you buy a share in the management group that operates the horses. No share in an individual horse.

The group was founded by a former wall street broker, a gambler and some other guy with no ownership experience-those were the guys in the suits and shades in the winners circle. Nothing against them at all but they are in it to make money for the equine hedge fund they now manage. Maybe that's why the blanket of roses got left in the mud, they didn't appear to care about respect for tradition.

There is no owner to decide who he gets syndicated to, it's going to be all about the money offered to show maximum return on investement to shareholders and woo others into the fold. Pump and dump anyone?

[farmgirl88]

While i think Big Brown is an amazing looking animal with fairly nice looking confirmation- i do not believe nor would i call him a "Superhorse". He really hasnt done enough to prove himself of being in the category. I think everyone is jumping too far ahead of their horse right now. Yes he won the KY derby in great fashion-but some of those horses in that field never truly showed up to race that day-i think. The closest contender with the greatest talent besides him, i believe, was Eight Belles. He has hoof issues and i'd say his connections are doing a good job monitoring it-but they are doing it with dollar signs in their eyes

[farmgirl88]

and also what happened with the roses after the race in the above post?? Im lost

[findeight]

Apparently Big Brown hated them and they could not get them over his shoulders (not the first one either). Somehow they got left in the mud and a security guard picked them up later on after everybody left...or so the USA Today said. Nobody cared enough to rescue them except a track employee.

Perhaps it's not fair to read much into that but I have seen owners draped in that blanket of roses because it meant so much to them. Sometimes it's NOT all about the money...unlike the appearance of this and all the bragging about future syndication proceeds and other loudmouth behavior.

Sorry, this horse is saddled with some...um....non traditional type connections in a sport that can, and has, humbled even kings to the point long timers know to be modest lest they jinx themselves.

Just don't care for the way they are presenting themselves and their investment opportunity that turns a living thing into a mutual fund.

[Beezer]

Re the ongoing angst over Brown's feet, please go read this very good article about the situation with them:

Big Brown's Feet Not So Bad http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/article/45265.htm

According to the farriers working on him now, his hoof problems are behind him.