The downfall of unhorsie parents (Jesse James is here! Update post #34)

[eSpresso]

Let me start by giving some background information on my situation.

My thoroughbred mare is 20. My sister bought her 8 years ago as a 12 year old, and when she went to college I started riding her. I've been riding this horse for 5 years. She was my first fall, taught me how to stick like glue, have almost no fear, taught me to ride every day otherwise I'd end up on the ground, and so many other things. She lives at home, and I feed her and do all of the barn chores every day. I love this horse so much, just writing how much I love her is making me tear up. She's taken me to my first Beginner Novice horse trials, Novice at the AEC's and we were supposed to move up to training at my last event.

Last winter (in '06/'07) she became dead lame. We got x-rays to try and figure out what was up with her, and the vets thought it might be a bone spur, but nothing really showed up in the x-rays. She was sound again that spring and we dropped back down to BN, but shortly after, in the summer she was on and off lame again. We did 2 more novice horse trials in the fall, the last event being area championships. I was so excited, because it was our best dressage test yet, and decided to go to some schooling dressage shows to get ready for the move up to training this spring.
About 5-7 weeks ago, my mare is lame again. She hadn't been shod for spring yet, so I was hoping that shoeing might help her. Next week, she was shod, but did not get much better. I pulled her from the event and took my trainer's horse to BN, which was his first event (we ended up being eliminated before XC, because he's very green over fences).

I've decided that it's time to seriously looking for another horse, because I think my mare is done, and I don't want to stop riding and eventing.

This brings me to my problem. My mom isn't into horses. She doesn't understand much, but comes and watches me compete, and brings me to lessons. My mom wants me to get rid of my horse by either giving her away, or sending her to auction if I want another horse. When she says this to me I am very shocked. This mare is my best friend, and my mother recommended me to send her to auction!

I talked to my dad who understands the horse stuff much better, and he says that if I want another horse, my dad is all for it, I'm just going to have to convince my mom. He gave me some tips on things to do when I talked to her, but I would really like your input on what else I should mention when having this heart to heart, and if anything should not be mentioned.

So, all day in school today I calculated the approximate cost per year for my horse, and reasons I should keep her.

1.Shoeing: would need trim ever 6-7 weeks @ $45 per trim: $385+/- per year.
2.Vet: Spring shots and 1 summer booster: $320+/- per year
3.De-Worming: 6 de wormings per year: $68+/- per year
4.Grain: seeing as I'm not riding my horse right now, she gets very little grain per day, 1/4-1/2 scoop. may take 3-4 months to finish 5 bags of grain: at most, $300 per year. (grain is the one thing I am most uncertain about the total price, but we also get a deal on grain at the end of the year)
5.Hay: May eat as little as 2 flakes per day in summer, because on 12 hr turnout in 4 acres of grassy field. In winter, will eat 6-8 flakes per day.
I guessed price 2 ways:
1) estimating 20 flakes/bale, summer 1 bale would last 8-10 days, winter 3-4 days.
2) estimating 55lbs/bale, summer 1 bale would last 11 days, winter 2.2-3.6 days.
cost: winter would be Nov-May, $176.55-$289.90// spring being May-Nov, $58.40-$80.50. total cost/year $234.95-$369.90
6.Dental: 1 float/year $55+/-
All added up, the (maximum) total is $1500 +/- per year.

Reasons to keep my horse:
-I went applying for jobs was to help pay for getting a new horse, and my current horse.
-My horse has earned her keep, making me a better rider, and teaching me so much.
-(Dad said to say this) You've spent thousands of dollars on me over the past 10 years of my riding 'career'. Not being able to ride and train my own horse, and grow in my riding, almost throws that money away, because I'm not actively working on getting my riding better. I'm only taking lessons once per week.
-(dad says to say this) Putting this responsibility for horses on my college applications will look good
-If my mare were to be kept with us, and I got another horse, the new horse would have a friend. Horses are heard animals, and if a horse doesn't like being alone, that horse could stress out a lot, which could lead to colic, or ulcers, and vet bills to follow. Thankfully my mare was one who could handle that, but if you noticed, when we boarded my aunts horse, or my friend's horse at our barn, my mare's mood improved a lot.
-I don't think there would be too many people willing to put up with her unfriendliness/head shyness/grumpy attitude, or if we got rid of her and she magically got sound, and they wanted to ride her, they'd probably send her to auction when they girthed her up and then watched her either go through the wall/rear/buck/flip over/do something crazy.
-she's not really a horse someone would like as a pet, because she doesn't tie, except for cross ties.

My trainer has also found 2 horses, which I'm going to mention to my mom again after everything is said and done.
one, a 4 yo green TB
and, a anglo-arab that she said would be a good project for summer. she said the owner is looking to send the horse to auction if it doesn't sell soon, and she may either sell to me for $500 to do with whatever I wanted, or maybe free lease the horse for me to train and ride over the summer, and split profit when it's sold.


Hopefully you can give me advice what to add/not talk about when I talk to my mom. It'll probably be sometime tomorrow evening that I talk to her about this all.

Thank you in advance!

[TampaBayEquine]

you have a pm

[thumbsontop]

I may have to ponder this a bit, but the one benefit (besides the emotional one) is that it would serve as a companion to another horse. You are right - they ARE herd animals - period. You might be careful saying that not training your own horse is throwing money away. That implies that the next horse will cost much more. :) And you're right, she's earned her keep with you and your sister. My 13 yr old daughter is at a point now where she needs to decide what to do with her pony she's outgrown. She's mentioned before that she would give up competing just to keep her pony - even if it's just as a pet. I commend her for that. I'd still like to find a home for the pony, but I appreciate her loyalty to a pony that's served her well. In her case it's not simply because she wants to hold on.

The one thing I think you're forgetting bigtime in your expenses category is vet expenses. You ONLY have basic preventative care listed. This horse has been lame. You still don't know what's wrong with her. That will be an ongoing case. It would be cruel just to put her out in the pasture and assume that she's fine. If you really care about her, forget the other horse until you can diagnose this one fully. Also consider that she will likely need some type of maintenance to keep her comfortable in the future.

[eSpresso]

the vet costs was one that I was thinking a lot about.
I'm still looking into talking to other farriers, because the problem started when my farrier nailed too close to the white line. We're not sure if she was always a bit off, but then this bad shoeing threw her over the edge to compensate one sore place to another, or if it's a cause of this one bad shoeing, or something enitrely different.

I did ride her about two weeks ago, to see if she felt any different from the last time, thinking maybe it was sore muscles, and she'd feel better. She was off (not dead lame this time) and seemed to get better after I stretched her for 15/20 minutes, but was still bobbing her head every once in a while.

[Sandy M]

Well, frankly, would playing the "tugging at the heartstrings" ploy help? Your mare, much as you love her, at her age is, as you say, not particularly saleable. Would it be "too much" to say that sending her to auction would be, essentially, condemning her? Show your mom some of FHOTD's postings about the responsibilities we owe to horses such as your good mare, after all she has done for you, to give her a good retirement home? How selling her and losing control of her, or sending her to auction, would be morally reprehensible and essentially a death sentence? That might be exaggerating a little, but not too much considering the current horse market.

It sounds like neither of your future prospects are super expensive horses, so it's not like you're asking to buy a $15K plus prospect. Since your father agrees with you, will he not talk to her about this? Seems like financially it's certainly his decision as well.

[CBudFrggy]

Show her the Fugly Horse of the Day thread so she can see the sheer number of unwanted horses out there and how they end up, and you don't want your dear mare ending up that way. She's earned her retirement with your family by training you and your sister to ride and keeping you safe.

[riverbell93]

Just wanted to say good luck! I don't know if I would talk much about possible new horses until I'd gotten her on board with the plan to create a 2-horse household. It's easier to say no to a new horse than to a beloved daughter.

[Sandy M]

Yah....I got myself into a tight situation, but I'm an old f**t and I'm coping (barely). My old horse is arthritic. Fine for walking trail rides, but that's about it. I blithely purchased an unstarted 2.5 year old, thinking it would be a piece of cake to find a lessee or half-lessee for my old guy since he's a pretty, gentle, reliable trail horse. WRONG. I tried for eight months to find a lessee, in vain. Baby gets to be 3 (May 2007). I'd been paying a very low board on him by leaving him with the breeder, but it was crunch time. I bit the bullet, found a reasonable (but not cheap) place to pasture board my old guy, sent youngster to trainer for a couple of months (all I could afford), and have been taking my bumps and bruises at home with the newby since last fall. It is costing me PLENTY to maintain two horses, and I've cut waaaay down on lessons, and just about everything else. The old guy is 90 mins away, so, thanks to current gas prices, I only visit him a couple of times a month. Retiree's dam lived to be 38, so I'm in it for the long haul, I think. Not the way I thought it would work out.

[Lori B]

Yeah, I would make sure that she understands that an auction presents an extremely likely bad outcome for your current mare. Of course, since she's not an animal person, she might not find that as horrible as we do.

Non-animal people do not get it, in many cases. The notion of 'owing' something to an animal that has worked for you is an honorable one, but one that is hard to sell to those who aren't on board with us ever owing any animal anything. Good luck.

[poltroon]

It may help to say that the mare has earned her retirement, and that you want to work to support her retirement. That's a word that might help her understand the situation better, and that her daughter appreciates the needs of the elderly. ;)

[yellow rose]

why don't you find a horse to free lease? put some training on it, show it.. no, it's not the ideal situation but there are lots of ways to get better and compete while you're on a budget OR don't own your own horse/a suitable horse.

I know tons of people around me that have very nice horses that just sit in fields, and the owners would jump on the chance for some capable rider to come along and work with them.

[yellow rose]

and btw.. I wish I got 20 flakes out of each of my bales of hay!!!

[AKB]

I have always encouraged my daughters to take care of their retirees because this is how one learns about compassion and loyalty to family members (human and animal). If your mother is religious, you might discuss that it is morally wrong to throw away a family member because she is old or ill. There aren't a lot of good homes for old or lame horses.

You can cut expenses by leaving your mare barefoot, if she is comfortable without shoes and you have her trimmed regularly. You can save on vaccines by buying them from Heartland or Valley Vet or other online company instead of having the vet come out. Make sure you go over your vaccine and worming plan with the vet when they come for the annual coggins test and dental work. Also make sure your new horse is sound and healthy so you minimize your chances for major vet expenses on horse number 2.

Talk with your mother about how caring for an older horse helps you learn. My one daughter owns a now 22 year old TB who was lame constantly right after we bought him. My daughter got to know the vets and staff at the local university clinic very well. One of the surgeons mentored my daughter, and eventually wrote her recommendations for vet school. My other daughter was fascinated by the MRIs and other diagnostics that we considered using for her aging and lame horse. She is now studying bioengineering, including currently taking a class in bioimaging. Explain to your mother that keeping an aging horse will help you academically, as well as developing your moral character. Then, make sure your grades are good, if you are still in school.

You are doing the right thing by caring for your older horse. Good luck in talking your mother into also doing what is right.

[eSpresso]

Wow, I didn't expect this many replies. thanks to all of you who responded.
I had jsut left to get a lesson on my trainer's horse, and came back to all of this!

My dad and trainer were talking while I was putting away the horse, and when they finished talking, he seemed somewhat excited about the Anglo-Arab. I think he wants me to talk to my mom first, and then if needed, he'll back me up. On our drive home, my dad was saying that we should show my mom the realities of auction, and whatnot. I was in the car, getting choked up about how I would feel very uncomfortable giving her to someone that I didn't know well, because my horse's future could be uncertain.

Yellow Rose- The anglo-arab is a possible free lease from what my trainer sounded like she was saying. She said if I wanted to buy it, the owner may even go less than $500, because she's in a sticky situation. Also, Hay: my flakes are somewhat thin, and the bales are longer, so I thought 20 was reasonable. *shrugs*

Sandy M- If I got a new horse, I wouldn't send it into training, because it's not something I feel as though I would need, or want. I have a superb trainer at my fingertips, who's willing to bend over backwards to help me.

AKB- You definatley have a point about the religion idea, and that would hopefully gain points with my mom.


I think that's all I can think of now, plus, America's Next Top Model Finale is on! Can't miss that!

THANK YOU!

[Melliebay]

I think the simple fact is that your mare is a part of you and your sister and your riding and life education, and that you owe it to her to make sure that she lives out her days with kindness, love, and dignity. A horse is not a piece of equipment, meant to be replaced when it is no longer useful.

It sounds like your dad has the right idea...you didn't say whether your parents are still together, but I would guess not, given that YOU are the one that has to "prove" your mare's worth to your mother.

I did not have horsey parents at all, from the time I was 14, every dollar I spent on horses came from my own pocket. It's tough to make parents see something that they aren't inclined to, but I'm glad you are trying.

Best of luck to you!!!

[lbennet6]

I ran into this same problem a couple of years ago. My parents decided to pull out all of their support of horses, so I fed at the barn to work of board/lessons and then did babysitting/housesitting/petsitting/barnsitting/transporting children for money. Then last year my horse had to be retired...he was navicular and need to be a companion horse. At the time I had stress/life issues to work out and made the difficult decision to find him a retirement home. I'm not saying that you should do this...I'm just sharing my story. I ended up giving him to a family farm in TN and they updated me weekly sometimes daily with emails and pictures. It was the best for all involved.

Now for your situation...I completely understand and I hope it goes in your favor. I would suggest to them that maybe you could pick up the cost of your mare if they would pay for your new horse. I think that would be a fair proposal. I hope everything works out for you!! Good Luck!!

[Cita]

Playing up the retirement is a good ploy. "I think everyone deserves a happy, comfortable retirement after many years of hard work. Don't you think so?"

If your mother is particularly Christian, maybe you can sway her with some bible verses about caring for livestock? (e.g. Proverbs 12:10: "A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal...") After all, the bible says the Sabbath is for the rest of not just humans, but also for animals. Surely if they deserve to rest on the weekend they also deserve to rest once they are pressed into retirement... if you google "bible + animal + stewardship" you'll also get a boatload of resources... good luck...!

[Smufy3DE]

Having non horsey parents... I understand you frustration. I don't know how old you are... but maybe you could give walk trot lessons on her or lease her to a pony clubber in your area. If shes sound enough to work a little and you can keep her sound doing just the lessons, it would probably keep her happy and you could earn a little income to help pay for her.

[LisaB]

She may have a concern about when you leave for college too. She's going to be stuck with possibly 2 horses. Definitely one. I've seen this happen and the parent wants to be an empty nester but isn't because they are tied to a horse that they don't even enjoy.
Always have a plan b for either horse. Find retirement facilities for the mare and if horse #2 doesn't work out, then have a plan on selling it or leasing it.
Your mom is not a forever home and doesn't want the responsibility of the horse when you leave.

[Oldtime eventer]

At 20 years old and basically unsound and worn out, putting the horse down would be a better alternative than selling or auction or giving away. Unless you can find some sort of companion horse situation, which arnt as easy to come by as folks think.

[eSpresso]

Smufy3DE- I am a pony clubber, one of the 3 in our immediate area. She's not really sound enough for much work, if any right now, although I see her galloping as though she were two around the paddock. I have thought about the lesson kind of idea, but she's just no sane enough for that. I decided that I was done with having others who are inexperienced when she tried to buck my 8 year old brother off while I was standing right next to him, and holding them both (I had even ridden her around before I thought of letting him on).

Lisa B- I can totally understand what you're saying. I'm a sophomore, and kind of have an idea of what I'd like to do, and if I decide to persue it, I can take courses at the local State University or Community college, both being 20 minutes, so I oculd still live at home and train. Although if I decide to go another route that requires more of an expertise, I can see how my mom would be wary abut the situation.

Melliebay- My parents are still together, but I think my dad wants me to figure out how to present reasonable facts and prove a good argument, if that makes any sense.

AKB- I forgot on my last post that the next time my farrier is coming out (tuesday) I'm having him pull her shoes and trim her from now on. My dad suggested even learning how to trim hooves myself, so we can just have the farrier come out once in a blue moon when needed, and cut the cost on that part.

[AKB]

It sounds like you are quite organized. Parents, myself included, like to see a budget like the one you proposed. You might be able to cut your worming costs a little by buying the year's supply of wormer at one time from a catalogue. Compare prices and then buy what you will need.

Think out the college scenario. Both of my daughters went to a local university (University of Maryland) so they could keep their horses at home. This university was also the best place to study what they wanted to study, and provided a good path towards the careers that they want. It might help to say to your mother "I want to study .....(e.g, nursing, pharmacy, animal science, or whatever). I can live at home during college, keep my horses, and get my college degree in .... at the local university. This degree will enable me to get a good job so I can then support my horses myself. My grades are good enough to get into the local state university." This is one way my daughters convinced us that they could each manage two horses.

Good luck with this. I hope some of our suggestions help.

[eSpresso]

I just got done talking to the mother. I told her that is would be roughly $1500 for basic care for Miss Mare, horses are herd animals, the horse I am interested in would be a summer project, to sell at the end of summer(along with more than half of the things I listed previously)

With some prodding, my mother said that as long as I got a job, and covered the expenses for my horse, and bought this one with my money, I could set up a day to go look at the horse, and if all is well, own him!

Thank you for all your help, I'm so excited!
I'll take pictures when I go look at him.

[buschkn]

Good luck with everything. You are doing a great job. I hope your mom comes around some more and sees fit to help you with the expenses if your parents can swing it. Or at least that you dad can sneak you some spare change here and there. :) Your mom sounds pretty tough, I wish she were a bit more supportive of what you love, but at least she's not totally opposed to the idea of another horse. Good luck and keep us posted!

[AnsleyGrace]

How I feel for you! I was in the near exact same situation with my first horse a few years ago. I had an 18 year old mare that I'd owned for seven years, she was arthritic, grumpy and still hot and particular at her age. She'd been bought and sold eight times on her registration transfer and I knew of three additional owners that hadn't bothered changing her papers. In short, she had not had an easy life. But I loved her and she had graciously put up with a bumbling kid and managed to teach me how to stick. She was no longer comfortable in her work and I was missing riding very badly. My dad refused to consider buying me a new horse unless I sold her and (being non-horsey) did not understand why no one would want her and that being sold would not end well for her. My parents are divorced and dad financed all the horse stuff so I had no mom to mediate.

What ended up happening though, was wonderful. I was desperate not to have to quit riding (not being dramatic, it really did seem like a possibility at the time) and spoke to my trainer about it. She offered me a care-lease on a mare that had been sitting in her pasture for eight years and had only been green broke as a four year old. The rest is history. I was a desperate kid with no other options and though the new mare was an enormous challenge, just three years later she has taken me farther in my riding than I had ever dreamed of going in such a short time. My first horse was allowed to retire gracefully and spend her last three years of life in bliss boarded at a friend's barn, sharing a paddock with her lovable, geriatric "boyfriend" before passing quietly in her sleep.

I hope your story has as good of an ending as mine did. Good luck!

[AKB]

Congratulations. Now, you will have to work extremely hard to put up your share of the money, get the horse and start training him. That is ok. Work is good. Just make sure this is the right horse for you and that he/she is sound. You don't want all of your efforts wasted on a horse that you can't enjoy. Post some pictures, when you have time.

[eSpresso]

Today we went to go visit the Anglo-Arab, named Jesse James.
He was pretty cool. I rode him for 10 minutes at the walk trot. At first I did a little walking around his small paddock before I went out into the 'riding part' with no fencing. He did some baby rears in the paddock, and little baby bucks. They weren't anything big or bad, but I could have donw with out. I think he just didn't like being in as little of a circle. He went forward mch better out in the open. He has been out of work since last fall or longer, with only 1 ride in the spring. He's about 15.3-16 h, so if I bought him, it'd be more to train and re-sell. I'll post updates in a blog I just created, the link is in my signature.

picture time!
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x194/HahaHillary/1111.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x194/HahaHillary/2222.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x194/HahaHillary/3333.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x194/HahaHillary/4444.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x194/HahaHillary/5555.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x194/HahaHillary/IMG_3701.jpg

Comments Welcomed!

I'll be going down again Monday to ride him again.

A video will be posted a bit later.

[eSpresso]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghAlmRQrxA4
Video added!

[AKB]

He is cute and seems to have decent athleticism. Try him out at least several times to be sure he is the right one. Even though he is for resale, it may take you a year or more to turn him into a solid event horse. You want to be sure you will enjoy him during that time.

[eponacowgirl]

Ooooh... he's cute!

[CookiePony]

There is something a little off-- maybe hind end? He looks uncomfortable to the right. When you go see him again, see if someone could jog him for you while you watch his hips-- and if you get him, get a good vetting.

[eSpresso]

There is something a little off-- maybe hind end? He looks uncomfortable to the right. When you go see him again, see if someone could jog him for you while you watch his hips-- and if you get him, get a good vetting.

I was watching the video before I posted it, and noticed that he was a bit uncomfortable at the walk, taking shorter steps with his inside leg going to the right. That was also the direction he reared and bucked when I trotted him around in the paddock. He didn't feel off to me when I was riding, but when I looked at the video, I definitely noticed something was up. It also could be that he's stiff, this being probably the second time this year he's been out of the paddock.

I didn't have time to post much yesterday, (hopefully I didn't say this already) But he used to be a champion dressage or hunter horse in the New England Region. His owner showed me his 'portfolio' with cute baby pictures, and show pictures. He was a fancy looking boy.

The owner also said that her daughter and Jesse James trained with Jerry Schurink for a period of time, but decided to go back to another trainer, and that's when everything went downhill. I'm a little bit fuzzy on the whole story, so it may not seem to make much sense.

I'm going down tomorrow, and I'll talk to my trainer about his hind end. I think the owner said he was due for a trim, so that could possibly be a reason...

[annikak]

I agree with making sure about that right hind- but...

You are a lovely rider, soft and kind to him. He is a cute boy, and he seems to appreciate you (given his stretching down here and there toward the end) giving him the ability to do his job.

Do keep us posted!

[eSpresso]

I'm very excited to announce that Jesse James is with me for a three month free lease, as a trial, which I can then purchase him when and if I decide we'll get along.

It took a long time to load, so that's something to work on, but he's great at the house.
I have now ridden him four times, and he gets better every time!

I am keeping a blog on him and his training and such, the adress of which is http://itsanewhorse.blogspot.com
The link is also in my signature.

There are many new pictures from today, and a few posts about him so far.
Keep checking back on the blog to see how everything's going!

Any comments are appreciated!