Toe Grabs

[Madeline]

There's been a lot of discussion of how to improve racehorse safety and perhaps reduce catastrophic injuries. My understanding is that banning toe grabs would be a major step in that direction, with no cost other than the ink to print the information. I know they are banned in Virginia and at all National Steeplechasing Association venues.

Implementation is cheap. Enforcement is dead easy. No one gains unfair advantage. Fewer horses get hurt.

Why delay?

[DickHertz]

Because a lot of old-timers are typically on the local HPBA and old-timers are big believers in toe grabs. I've discussed it with trainers and they always say they help horses a lot. They'll also tell you that no toe grabs behind will cause a horse to get stifle problems in a deep track (which is a crock of shit).

The XLT's should be the max any racehorse wears on dirt or turf (many tracks already don't allow toe grabs on the turf).

I read a study in my farrier's magazine that showed the only benefit to toe grabs is the first 10% of the race (out of the gate) and they actually inhibit a horse when they get leg weary late in a race.

[solargal]

They are phasing out on their own. A lot of people use outer rims, or like in Chicago, the farrier tells me most use queens plates.

[Laurierace]

Actually low toe grabs behind aren't a problem. As far as front toe grabs go, I haven't had them in my barn since the U.C. Davis study came out over a decade implicating their role in catastrophic breakdowns. I personally don't need a "rule" to make me do what is best for my horses. I guess some people do.

[DickHertz]

Glad you chimed in Laurierace, we value your opinion. I agree, that generally low toe grabs behind won't hurt much.

The toe grab thing has always been my pet peeve about racing. Everytime I get the bloodhorse out of the mailbox, I check to see if the horse on the cover is wearing them up front !!!

I think the rule would be good for the horses, Laurierace. Just imagine how field sizes would get over the long haul if they stopped using them. There would definitely be greater longevity for horses at the lower and mid-level tracks. Not everyone is as bright as you by not putting toe grabs on the front of their horses.

[Blueshadow]

The CHRB responded (just last year, however) to the same study that Laurierace cites - post mortem studies done at UCDavis - by banning front toe grabs in CA. I think low grabs in behind are permitted.

[Bacchus]

As I mentioned in the other thread, front toe grabs are not banned in CA, but front toe grabs longer than 4 mm are.

Anyone who's looked at the photos from the Toe Grab presentation on the Welfare and Safety of the Racehorse Summit can see what a horrible affect they have.

I truly believe front toe grabs are what did Eight Belles in, and I hope they start banning them everywhere. Amazing that racing is so slow to embrace change -- even change that has been studied and proved.

[JHUshoer20]

As I mentioned in the other thread, front toe grabs are not banned in CA, but front toe grabs longer than 4 mm are.
Because no deleterious effects have ever been proven about small grabs. The big ones possibly but low and XLT no.

I truly believe front toe grabs are what did Eight Belles in, and I hope they start banning them everywhere. Demonstrably incorrect. Not only have they not been used regularly on the front by most trainers for at least 10 years now, but the trainer of the horse in question was adamently against them. And don't look now but they have started banning them everywhere. Amazing that racing is so slow to embrace change -- even change that has been studied and proved. Even more amazing is that the general public hangs on to predjudiced notions and beliefs. Wonder just how far into the past high grabs have to go before people stop scapegoating them?
George

[Barnfairy]

Amazing that racing is so slow to embrace change -- Change comes slowly in just about everything. Why don't all schoolbuses have seatbelts? Why do some people continue to feed high carb sweet feeds to their low maintenance horses? And why do we still have to wear silly stock ties at dressage shows?

[Texarkana]

And why do we still have to wear silly stock ties at dressage shows?

:lol::lol::lol:

But in all seriousness...
I don't have any problem with banning toe grabs. It's a great idea. But I don't think they are the root of the problem. Rather, they just exacerbate pre-existing problems.

Like horses running on feet that resemble mis-matched clown shoes or seal flippers... give them extra torque on that poorly shod foot and no duh something is going to give.

[Madeline]

Because no deleterious effects have ever been proven about small grabs. The big ones possibly but low and XLT no.
Demonstrably incorrect. Not only have they not been used regularly on the front by most trainers for at least 10 years now, but the trainer of the horse in question was adamently against them. And don't look now but they have started banning them everywhere. Even more amazing is that the general public hangs on to predjudiced notions and beliefs. Wonder just how far into the past high grabs have to go before people stop scapegoating them?
George

Not exactly, George. Go to Bill Casner's April 2007 presentation, Jockey Club Grayson Foundation.

Regular grabs vs. no grabs:
Fatal musculoskeletal injury- 3.5X
Suspensory apparatus failure- 15.6X
Cannon condylar fracture- 17.1X

Small grabs vs. no grabs:
Fatal musculoskeletal injury- 1.8X
Suspensory failure- 6.5X
Condylar fracture- 7.0X

Small grabs are better than big grabs, but not nearly as good as no grabs at all.

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/summitDisplay.asp?section=4

madeline
ignorant member of the general public holding on to prejudiced notions and beliefs.

[JHUshoer20]

Not exactly, George. Go to Bill Casner's April 2007 presentation, Jockey Club Grayson Foundation.

Regular grabs vs. no grabs:
Fatal musculoskeletal injury- 3.5X
Suspensory apparatus failure- 15.6X
Cannon condylar fracture- 17.1X

Small grabs vs. no grabs:
Fatal musculoskeletal injury- 1.8X
Suspensory failure- 6.5X
Condylar fracture- 7.0X

Small grabs are better than big grabs, but not nearly as good as no grabs at all.

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/summitDisplay.asp?section=4

madeline
ignorant member of the general public holding on to prejudiced notions and beliefs.

Those stats do not change the fact that they are seldom used by anybody anymore. Have not been commonly used since the UC Davis study of the late 1990's.

All one needs do is visit a racetrack somewhere, go down to the paddock and look for yourselves.
George

[JHUshoer20]

Change comes slowly in just about everything. Why don't all schoolbuses have seatbelts?
As for this one it's been tried. Some time ago it was tried in Canada. Problem was kids clobbered each other over the head with them.

We all know American kids would never be as violent as those nasty Canadians but do you really wish to provide them with any more potential weapons?
George

[CoolMeadows]

Of the 70+ ex-racehorses that have arrived at my farm over the years, I can think of 3 that were without toe grabs. Granted, the majority of mine have come from smaller tracks with less than stellar reputations, but the big grabs are still out there en force. I can't imagine why any trainer would still think they're a good idea, but clearly some do. It's fascinating to watch the horses transition to their true movement and carriage once free of the grabs.

[Bacchus]

but the trainer of the horse in question was adamently against them

But he was using them on Eight Belles in the Derby -- or somebody put them on her without his knowing or his OK. Open the May 10 bloodhorse to page 2493. She is wearing toe grabs with inner rims, but the toe grabs are longer than the rims (quite a bit, actually, when talking mm). Combine that with the sealed surface that day and it's a recipe for disaster, unfortunately.

[actcasual]

Of the 70+ ex-racehorses that have arrived at my farm over the years, I can think of 3 that were without toe grabs. Granted, the majority of mine have come from smaller tracks with less than stellar reputations, but the big grabs are still out there en force. I can't imagine why any trainer would still think they're a good idea, but clearly some do. It's fascinating to watch the horses transition to their true movement and carriage once free of the grabs.


CM -- silly hunter question.
What kind of effect do toe grabs have on movement? The first time I ever heard of them was when I had a hunter trainer insist that his nice pre-green horse wear shoes with toe-grabs. He said it would make him move better to have the weight on the toe, to make him flip more? I always thought more weight meant more knee-action?

[Bacchus]

He said it would make him move better to have the weight on the toe, to make him flip more?

He doesn't know what he's talking about or you misunderstood him -- probably the earlier;)

As far as I can tell, people think toe grabs do exactly that -- grab the surface. As someone noted, this might help right out of the gate, but that's about it. After that, the toe grabs are a deterent. They also can cause problems as the horse is decelerating (think Eigth Belles). It acually distorts the natural balance/angle of the joints. Have a look at the Toe Grab presentation on the WSS website (www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/summit). The pictures are almost gruesome.

[DickHertz]

A lot of racetracks and commissons are run by former trainers and horseman. It will take a generation or two to change the toe grab rule. I also disagree about toe grabs behind not hurting anything (although they do less damage than front grabs IMHO). Our barn started using queens plates on all fours and so far, our record has improved (including five straight 1-2 finishes - all on dirt), and we've had very few problems behind. Not one horse has stifle problems right now.