Are they not stopping and analyzing because it's an Olympic year?

[La Gringa]

For me the sensible thing would be to stop and analyze, after reading all these threads... and how many people are concerned.. everybody knows there's a problem here.

Are they not stopping to see what can be done because of money involved? It's an Olympic year.. is that why?

I was just wondering this after reading everything and scratching my head.


Why don't they just change the format if it's a money issue? Is it too late for that?

Is it worth going to the Games knowing there probably will be another accident like every other major event lately?

Just wondering.. for me if it's money vs safety something is very very wrong.. safety must come first.

[CoolMeadows]

I've been thinking the same thing La Gringa. If money and the upcoming Olympics are a part of the reluctance to step away from the course momentarily for clarity, that's not a good sign. Eventing appears to be doing its utmost to hang itself.

[J Swan]

Oh for God's sake. If you really believe that no one in the eventing world is examining horse and rider safety and welfare - then you have NOT been paying attention.

Or you're choosing not to pay attention and merely want to throw rotten tomatoes and snigger.

I smell rotten tomatoes. :no:

[jilltx]

J Swan, I don't think that's what La Gringa was saying.

I think it's a valid point. I certainly don't think that "no one" in the eventing world is concerned, quite the contrary.

...but here's the big BUT... I keep hearing the SAME reasons for the accidents over and over again; After a period of time and with more and more accidents occurring at EVERY major event, even the most ardent supporter gets jaded.

EVERY possible reason has to be evaluated. Even the ones that STINK.

[J Swan]

I'm as jaded as they come - and I see no need for these comments. They're inflammatory (especially in the case of CoolMeadows) and intended to incite more negative posts.

Give me a freakin' break. Let's put this into perspective. Do you really want this entire sport to stop until the veterinary community figures out a cure for EIPH?

Do you really think it will take a couple of days?

Even when a plane crashes - and during the investigation - planes still fly. Even after 9-11 - airline travel resumed after an incredibly short period of time.

This is where Reed and I disagree a little - though I understand his line of thought and agree it is sound.

A lot can (and no doubt is) being done very quickly. Other things of concern are much more subtle.

I don't think the sky is falling, and I find it appalling that again, a certain poster hasn't managed to disguise the giant chip on her shoulder and her PeTA T-shirt.

Give it a rest. There is an enormous pool of talented and devoted people working on making this sport as safe as possible for horse and rider. The best veterinary and medical minds are working on ensuring the horse's health is protected to the extent possible. And that work will benefit ALL horses and riders - not just in the event world.

And some of you have the unmitigated gall to assert that the sport is hanging itself.

Peddle it elsewhere.

[jilltx]

Mine was NOT intended to incite more negative posts.

If you have a problem with a certain poster, why not use the IGNORE button and just stop reading the posts?

[J Swan]

Because I don't see the point of the ignore function on a bulletin board. And until now - this person's posts were never antagonistic or so negative. In fact - quite the opposite.

I'm rather astonished at the amount of vitriol on this forum recently. Especially ill-informed vitriol. Some are making it seem that folks in this sport are just kicking back drinking a beer and whipping their horses in the face for laughs. It does a great disservice to the sport - and the people that participate in it. And it detracts from any meaningful discourse.

And I daresay that's why most of us visit this BB. Meaningful discourse.

[jilltx]

I truly understand, but I don't appreciate being lumped in with the antagonizers, because I present a different view, anymore than you appreciate being lumped in with the "sipping your beer while horses die" group.

Obviously nerves are exposed and we all need to take a deep breath.

[Elmstead]

I think it is a legitimate question to ask how much and to what degree the upcoming Olympics are impacting the decision making process concerning current safety issues. If this has been mentioned on other threads then it is likely buried in pages of posts.

J. Swan...Yes, planes still fly after accidents....but each one of us has the option to NOT board a plane again until we feel safe. Unfortunately our horses do not have any such options when it comes to how they live their lives or spend their time. We use them as we see fit.

For the most part they are taken excellent care of and treated wonderfully, but lets not ever forget that their health, safety and well-being is entirely at OUR mercy.

We must be incredibly diligent in our efforts to keep them safe. Without them there are no horse sports. period. This is serious business and it is no wonder that people are feeling strongly about it and demanding drastic changes. If we cannot keep the horses safe then all horse sports are on VERY shaky ground.

Furthermore, if we do not demonstrate that horse health and safety are PARAMOUNT above profit and prizes, then outsiders will see these accidents (in racing, eventing, etc) as abuse. Outsiders want to see immediate action to protect the horses, and the horse community needs to show them that we DO put the horses first.

[Melliebay]

I'm rather astonished at the amount of vitriol on this forum recently. Especially ill-informed vitriol. Some are making it seem that folks in this sport are just kicking back drinking a beer and whipping their horses in the face for laughs. It does a great disservice to the sport - and the people that participate in it. And it detracts from any meaningful discourse.


For someone who is astonished at the amount of vitriol, you certainly came on this topic and spewed your own. I didn't see anything wrong with any of the posts, they asked HONEST questions that most of us would like the answers to.

I'm sorry that you don't think the little people are well informed enough to add any different perspectives to the discussion.

No one expects the problems to be solved overnight as you suggested. It will take time, I think LG was just curious about what steps are being taken given that this IS an Olympic year.

Now, do you have anything informative or positive to add to the discussion? :confused:

[J Swan]

I think LG's question, and CM's have been answered on other threads - in which I, as well as CM, posted. And I've offered as many suggestions as I can - including ways to improve fence safety, rider and instructor education, and stronger leadership.

I've yet to read anything posted by CM that was positive, or provided any meaningful contribution to this important subject. Which I don't understand because it appears to be out of character for her. While clearly people have strong views on this subject - there is no reason for a poster to hope that an AR group attacks a horse event or shuts it down.

And though many people on other threads have answered her questions time and again - it falls upon deaf ears. Which is a shame - because folks have really put their thinking caps on. If those folks are on this posters ignore list - she should turn it off. If a poster merely wants to throw stones - I'm simply not interested - and I find that attitude appalling - especially coming from a fellow horseman.

[nirvana002]

I am curious to see after the Olympics are over, how many of you who say the sport should have been shut down regardless of it being an Olympic year, are on here cheering if we win a medal and act supportive of our team members.

[Twomanydawgs]

I don't know that I would want it shut down completely...BUT if anymore horses die then they will HAVE to consider it...I just read a interesting article written back in 1979...perhaps the powers that be in eventing should have taken Jack Le Goff's advice back then....if you are in a sport that get's media attention you had better have all your ducks in a row...it's the public you all need to be worried about...if they turn on you...the sport is done.

[jilltx]

I am curious to see after the Olympics are over, how many of you who say the sport should have been shut down regardless of it being an Olympic year, are on here cheering if we win a medal and act supportive of our team members.

Yes, because clearly it's all about the MEDALS *eyeroll*

[La Gringa]

My point is this... Olympics is BIG business, BIG money at stake. Even if there are obvious problems which really do need to be addressed, they are most likely going to delay doing much until after the Games.. because of the money involved. The course is already built, the program is set, the TV ads purchased, etc etc..

Maybe it's causing things to not happen as fast?

Should they stop all competitions because of this? No. Should they make the obvious changes that are needed... to make sure it's a safe as possible NOW ? YES, IMHO even if it's an Olympic year.

No big venue, sponsorship, TV slot with big $$ is worth lives.

That's all I am saying here. I was thinking it the other day... since I know people trying to go to Beijing. How would any of us like to be in their shoes knowing what's happened lately to THEIR very good friends and horses?

Just my two cents, and not trying to be antagonistic.

JSwan you know that I normally am not a crap thrower.... on this stuff... but I am concerned about what's going on here. It's serious, and very scary IMO.

[La Gringa]

I am curious to see after the Olympics are over, how many of you who say the sport should have been shut down regardless of it being an Olympic year, are on here cheering if we win a medal and act supportive of our team members.

If we all get through the Games safely with horses and riders intact I will breathe a sigh of relief and thank GOD for watching over them, and I don't mean just the Americans either, every single rider from every country that competes there. Every single one has my blessings for a good safe trip.

The medals are not even relevant here, at least to me. How could you say such a thing when we are talking about people and horse's lives here. That's irrelevant.

:no:

[J Swan]

La Gringa - I apologize for lumping you in with a few other posters - and I apologize to those who thought I was referring to them. I need to remember to write more clearly. Some folks are interested in solutions - others are into pointing fingers. I only take issue with the finger pointers. They serve no purpose.

I'm as concerned as you. I've been an eventing nut since I was a kid - heck - you and I live in the same area - we've got some of the best horses and riders in the world right in our back yard. I see these folks and what sort of ethics they have. We use the same vets, farriers, we feed the same feed -and Lordy - I want to come back in my next life as one of their horses. Really.

And I certainly don't want to read that any of them - or their horses - have been harmed. But I also don't want the leadership to give us a knee jerk response, or institute measures that will only backfire on us in a couple of years. If you can - go read that Jimmy Wofford article Grey Dun just posted. He says it so much better than I can. And the article by Doug Payne - more wonderful thoughts.

Clearly - everyone is concerned. Very concerned. Folks that state otherwise need to educate themselves. And folks that just want to cast stones and complain - or make outlandish assertions about how uncaring eventers are - well - I apologize for my temper but I have no use for such people.

[La Gringa]

?

Even when a plane crashes - and during the investigation - planes still fly. Even after 9-11 - airline travel resumed after an incredibly short period of time.



This is an interesting point... just recently the Airlines were mandated by the GOVT to inspect planes because they were still flying with safety violations. Several airlines had to pull planes out of service to fix them mandated by FAA. If someone doesn't put their foot down they will still fly unsafely because of the COST of fixing the problems is high and they lose business. I hate to say it but $$ does come first sometimes... in fact a lot of the time in these things.

I am glad they made them fix and inspect the planes... and very relevant to what's happening in eventing.

Even if it takes just a week to hash this out and get things in order, it's worth it... it's worth people's lives..

Does that mean it ALL has to stop? No, but some changes need to be made NOW.. whatever it is that's needed.

[CoolMeadows]

My response was not meant to be inflammatory. Several people are legitimately curious as to exactly why a temporary hold hasn't been put on the upper levels in an attempt to get the mayhem under control. La Gringa's questions are ones I've wondered about as well. I'm sorry that you disagree with my feelings that eventing is hanging itself, but so be it. If we get through the Olympics and everyone survives, I'll be relieved, medals or not. I have to be honest - I have my doubts that there will be no more deaths between now and then.

JSwan, let me put it to you this way. I don't actively support PETA. I DO happen to agree with several of their recent suggestions about making improvements in racing. They were logical and pertinent. A couple were beyond ridiculous, but overall what they were asking for made sense. What's been happening in eventing recently (5 dead in 8 - or actually 7 weeks) is terrifying and since it's apparent that UL eventing isn't going to undergo a temporary hold to give researchers and everyone closely involved a bit of space and perspective to examine, it means to me that more deaths are likely coming. Isn't the best predictor of the future the past? Breaking it down to the bare bones here - I will support whoever can help prevent more dead horses. I'm a horse lover first and foremost. Sport of any sort will always come second, even though I've enjoyed several disciplines at various levels.

[J Swan]

It was only one carrier - and it was the FAA flexing its muscle. Which is good! The rest of our airfleet continued to fly.

Several intermediate measures have been taken (there is a thread listed, including a pretty big look into EIPH - our very own Deltwave is in on that and I'm thrilled). There are also several proposed measures to be taken in the interim, and an examination of why we're getting rotational falls.

Only time will tell if all those measures are warranted - or if it wasn't enough. And we need to remember that the USEA and the FEI are different entities.

But I think it's fair to say the none of this is merely being swept under the rug - as some have suggested.

I'm hoping that the EIPH study will reveal some causes, treatments and how to prevent this condition in all horses - not just event horses.

Anyway - I am eager to see eventing continue.

[La Gringa]

It was only one carrier - and it was the FAA flexing its muscle. Which is good! The rest of our airfleet continued to fly.



http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/03/us-airlines-get.html

Actually it was more, United, Delta and American, two more voluntarily pulled theirs as well in reaction, Alaska and Continental. United isn't listed on this article but is on this one..

http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1326314/united_airlines_cancels_38_flights_to_complete_ove rdue_safety_tests/

My point is.... without the mandatory inspection enforced, the were still flying like that due to cost.

My fear is that changes that are needed to improve the safety cross country won't be done fast enough because of the cost of the Olympic games. It's a thought, and one that I think is valid given that the games are just a few months away.

[RAyers]

It was only one carrier - and it was the FAA flexing its muscle. Which is good! The rest of our airfleet continued to fly.

Actually it was many carriers. It just so happened that the majority of American Airlines' US fleet are 727s so they were impacted the greatest. Yes, flying continues but when a type of plane crashes or has an incident, that type will be grounded until answers are found. Look at 747s and Flight 800 or 737 back in the 1980s with the vertical stabilizer.

I will also disagree with Jill. It is a testament to your abilities as you have represented the US, however, a gold, silver or bronze means squat if a horse or rider is hurt getting it. Being an Olympian is NOT proof of being a good horseman. It is proof of being a good rider with a good horse and good coaching at the right time. Being a good horseman is a person who despite being 2 fences from home relaizes something isn't right and calls it a day. It is a person who chooses to forego the Olympics because of concerns about the horse's health. It is a person who puts the welfare of the animal first (just like the FEI and USEF say in their mission statement). In the end, a medal is just a piece of stamped metal as given as testament to a specific acheivement.

Go back to Field of Dreams, and I paraphrase,

"It would kill some men to come that close to their dreams and have them go away. It is a shame."

"If I had only been a doctor for a day, now that would have been a shame."

Athletes are only athletes. If our horse industry disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow, most people would never know or even care.

Reed

[Mozart]

Actually it was many carriers. It just so happened that the majority of American Airlines' US fleet are 727s so they were impacted the greatest. Yes, flying continues but when a type of plane crashes or has an incident, that type will be grounded until answers are found. Look at 747s and Flight 800 or 737 back in the 1980s with the vertical stabilizer.

I will also disagree with Jill. It is a testament to your abilities as you have represented the US, however, a gold, silver or bronze means squat if a horse or rider is hurt getting it. Being an Olympian is NOT proof of being a good horseman. It is proof of being a good rider with a good horse and good coaching at the right time. Being a good horseman is a person who despite being 2 fences from home relaizes something isn't right and calls it a day. It is a person who chooses to forego the Olympics because of concerns about the horse's health. It is a person who puts the welfare of the animal first (just like the FEI and USEF say in their mission statement). In the end, a medal is just a piece of stamped metal as given as testament to a specific acheivement.

Go back to Field of Dreams, and I paraphrase,

"It would kill some men to come that close to their dreams and have them go away. It is a shame."

"If I had only been a doctor for a day, now that would have been a shame."

Athletes are only athletes. If our horse industry disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow, most people would never know or even care.

Reed

Bravo. Folks, pay attention to what Reed has been saying.

[pwynnnorman]

I think it is a legitimate question to ask how much and to what degree the upcoming Olympics are impacting the decision making process concerning current safety issues. If this has been mentioned on other threads then it is likely buried in pages of posts.



But how? The timing has hardly allowed the decision making process to occur.

Nothing happened at Poplar, out west or at The Fork. If nothing had happened at Rolex, would you make the same statement? Or would Red Hills have been viewed as an unfortuante abberation, another data collection point, a concern to be addressed--but not a slam-on-the-brakes crisis? There hasn't been--and just won't BE--time enough for any kind of reaction to date, regardless of what impact the Olympics might have on the process.

And besides, the Olympics realistically involve, at best, maybe 20 horses and riders in this entire country. Why would the fate of 20 cause resistance in decisions involving a sport of 10,000+? Why are the Olympics even relevant when it comes to safety issues?

[ezmissg]

I will also disagree with Jill. It is a testament to your abilities as you have represented the US, however, a gold, silver or bronze means squat if a horse or rider is hurt getting it. Being an Olympian is NOT proof of being a good horseman. It is proof of being a good rider with a good horse and good coaching at the right time. Being a good horseman is a person who despite being 2 fences from home relaizes something isn't right and calls it a day. It is a person who chooses to forego the Olympics because of concerns about the horse's health. It is a person who puts the welfare of the animal first (just like the FEI and USEF say in their mission statement). In the end, a medal is just a piece of stamped metal as given as testament to a specific acheivement.

Go back to Field of Dreams, and I paraphrase,

"It would kill some men to come that close to their dreams and have them go away. It is a shame."

"If I had only been a doctor for a day, now that would have been a shame."

Athletes are only athletes. If our horse industry disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow, most people would never know or even care.

Reed



Maybe I am WAY off-base here, and I'm sure Jill will correct me if I am, but...

I interpreted her remark to imply that people who say that the sport should be halted -- including the Olympics -- and who then get swept up by the Olympic fervor will end up sending mixed messages. In other words, "How many people will be talking out of both sides of their mouths?"

Though she did represent our country, I'm highly confident that Jill would have gladly sacrificed her entire Olympic experience if Nirvana II could have been spared the injury that occurred shortly thereafter, forcing the horse into premature retirement. :sadsmile:

[J Swan]

Bravo. Folks, pay attention to what Reed has been saying.

I always do. But I also interpreted Jill's comments a bit differently. :)

[c_expresso]

That's how I interpreted it as well.

Maybe I am WAY off-base here, and I'm sure Jill will correct me if I am, but...

I interpreted her remark to imply that people who say that the sport should be halted -- including the Olympics -- and who then get swept up by the Olympic fervor will end up sending mixed messages. In other words, "How many people will be talking out of both sides of their mouths?"

Though she did represent our country, I'm highly confident that Jill would have gladly sacrificed her entire Olympic experience if Nirvana II could have been spared the injury that occurred shortly thereafter, forcing the horse into premature retirement. :sadsmile:

[RAyers]

No you are not way off base. I am sure that is exactly what she meant as well. I am also sure that Jill would have quite willingly given up everything for the welfare of her horse. I am not questioning her abilities, but I am willing to use her comments as examples.

Those who use the logic that medals are so important, even to risk horses and riders, also speak out of the both sides of their mouth. The top of the mission statement for the FEI, USEF, USEA is the welfare of the horse. As Jimmy Wofford pointed out recently, the FEI is many times mistaken but never wrong. Their reasoning is to preserve the sport for the Olympics. What happened to the welfare of the horse?

This goes partially to also answering pynn's question. The rules and direction of the sport are being pushed by the FEI to keep the sport in the Olympics. They push for things that many long-time horsemen continue to explain are CONTRARY to the welfare of the horses in this sport. These rules/changes don't just affect the 20 or so Olympic hopefuls but anybody who competes at Prelim or above.

If a culture of safety/rider resposibility is to take hold, the idea that medals/winning are so important MUST be diminished. The focus MUST go back to horsemanship. People such as Jill are the mentors/riders/trainers who can begin to affect that change to both the low level competitors as well as at the governing levels.

Reed


Maybe I am WAY off-base here, and I'm sure Jill will correct me if I am, but...

I interpreted her remark to imply that people who say that the sport should be halted -- including the Olympics -- and who then get swept up by the Olympic fervor will end up sending mixed messages. In other words, "How many people will be talking out of both sides of their mouths?"

Though she did represent our country, I'm highly confident that Jill would have gladly sacrificed her entire Olympic experience if Nirvana II could have been spared the injury that occurred shortly thereafter, forcing the horse into premature retirement. :sadsmile:

[Rallycairn]

If a culture of safety/rider resposibility is to take hold, the idea that medals/winning are so important MUST be diminished. The focus MUST go back to horsemanship. Reed

To me, this idea is the key to making eventing safer: a culture change. I asked in several of the discussion threads about specific proposals, and had the same reaction to the threads Denny started about how the system used to work in the days of LeGoff, "Can we create a culture that will in fact achieve ... x y z?"

We have to change the culture. Even if we change the rules, we have to make sure that the culture is such that the rules will be enforced where necessary. E.g., empowering on-course officials to step in and stop a ride where a team is obviously too fatigued or injured or "off" to continue. It's going to take a heck of a culture change, I'd be willing to bet, to make officials feel comfortable doing such a thing knowing that people will question their decisions and their decisions will have a big effect on teams and on competitions.

Now, I'm sure many may fire back at me with examples where this has been done -- but I think the problem we're acknowledging is that it doesn't happen often enough. Maybe it's because of the desire for results/medals, maybe (as has been talked about in the thread started by Danny Warrington's piece) we've gotten too much into "just kick on" or believing that somehow every horse and every rider should have a chance at the big time as a sort of "God-given right," I don't know.

It's going to take a heck of a culture change to come up with and approve a qualifying system for the levels that has some teeth and is enforced and not "gotten around" through loopholes, if indeed stricter qualifying criteria are proposed after the "safety summit."

Whatever the specific safety proposals made, as Reed and others have said, we've got to get back to a culture of safety, for riders and horses. A culture of horsemanship, of the horse comes first. We've got to know when to pull up. We've got to know when not to start at all. We've got to know when the rules as they stand aren't doing enough to ensure safety and be willing to make changes. We've got to feel comfortable bringing problematic fences to the att'n of technical delegates. (Just throwing out examples.)

Even if we think someone with a criticism is possibly just being inflammatory, we can't dismiss criticisms, even outlandish ones, because there may be a kernel of truth in the line of thinking -- or the criticisms may simply represent general public opinion, which we'd do well to heed.

And count me in as one who, despite all the costs and difficulties that would be involved, is surprised we haven't had some sort of a "stand down" given the death toll. Despite the upcoming safety summit and the rhetoric from USEA, to me (I repeat, TO ME) it still feels too much like "business as usual." A lot of the threads about the accidents are already fading into page 2 or 3 or beyond on the board.

If you think, "Well, what else is there to say? The threads have hundreds of posts on them, it's all been said" I guess I still feel that we should be questioning, ALL THE TIME, "Okay, what's happened today regarding the safety proposals? Who is collecting data RIGHT NOW? Who is investigating possible changes THIS WEEK?" And keep up that questioning day after day and week after week.

Even though competitions are continuing as scheduled, shouldn't the culture already be changing? By this I'm referring to an observation made in one of the Rolex threads by a spectator who said he/she couldn't believe on stadium day how little talk there was about Laine or Frodo or Quiet Man, etc. Few were willing to verbalize anything about the serious accidents that had occurred, or even acknowledge out loud that the accidents HAD occurred.

We don't want to be offensive, morbid, or gruesome, but we must feel like respectful questions regarding what happened in a specific accident can be asked. We have to be willing to point out (for example) that a rider was going too fast, or was not balanced, or that a combination was consistently sticky in negotiating question after question and should have been made to retire, or that a horse looked injured/"off" but the rider continued anyway.

That is part of the culture that should change, and we can start now by continuing the discussions, not stopping the questioning, and not feeling complacent with a vague sense that since a safety summit has been scheduled the situation's all being taken care of. We all need to contribute to that culture change. Today, tomorrow, next week, next month, keep up the discussions, keep up the questions, that will lead to changing the culture.

ETA: Yikes! Wow, what a long post. Did anyone even read this far?

[nirvana002]

Maybe I am WAY off-base here, and I'm sure Jill will correct me if I am, but...

I interpreted her remark to imply that people who say that the sport should be halted -- including the Olympics -- and who then get swept up by the Olympic fervor will end up sending mixed messages. In other words, "How many people will be talking out of both sides of their mouths?"

Though she did represent our country, I'm highly confident that Jill would have gladly sacrificed her entire Olympic experience if Nirvana II could have been spared the injury that occurred shortly thereafter, forcing the horse into premature retirement. :sadsmile:

Yes, for sure. I would have given anything to have her around competing for much longer, because, I don't care what anyone says, I know my girl...and she lived to run and jump..the dressage she could have done without,most days. I am a good horseman, while I don't need anyone to validate that for me, it's nice to know someone recognizes it...thanks!

As for those of you who "disagree with me". What exactlly are you disagreeing with? There is nothing to agree or disagree with in my statement. I merely said I was curious to see who was going to be talking out of both sides of their mouths.

For the record, though, I am glad we are sending a team, as are ever other country that has one. They are professionals and know what they are doing. I am sure if they felt they were in a dangerous situation for themselves or their horses, they wouln't go.

Peace out!

[pwynnnorman]

That is part of the culture that should change, and we can start now by continuing the discussions, not stopping the questioning, and not feeling complacent with a vague sense that since a safety summit has been scheduled the situation's all being taken care of. We all need to contribute to that culture change. Today, tomorrow, next week, next month, keep up the discussions, keep up the questions, that will lead to changing the culture.



Ralycairn, you are so right--and I can assure you that in many quarters, it is happening that way. I sit on the USEA Marketing Committee with many folks with long-term experience in the sport and its behind-the-scenes operations. These folks get it and ARE developing and supporting new schemes to enhance the sport, attract new members, raise awareness of safety issues and even bring about the cultural/attitude change you've discussed.

The USEA Medal Program, for example, is in development. It's goal is to encourage and reward participants for mastering each level, rather than just moving up them. We also have plans to incorporate more positive images involving the lower levels, to emphasize the fun and horsemanship behind the sport. And we're hoping that by producing programs for future and new members at the lower levels, combined with easy-to-find-and-use online resources, eventers can start off with the attitude and information they need to participate in a healthy way through good horsemanship and effective coaching.

I've been a skeptic myself, y'know. But I am very encouraged by the people I've met and worked with. There are still traditionalists out there who are wary of intangibles like raising awareness and changing attitudes, but I think the dialogues going on now are making even those traditionalists reconsider. It's just going to take time for the results of all the activities occuring to have visible impact. However, I do predict that by the time Fair Hill rolls around this year, there will have been a huge change in both the tangible and the intangible aspects of the sport.

In fact, I'll make a bet with you (or anyone). If we can nail down the particulars, I'll bet someone Teddy's '07 Rolex ribbon that major progress will have been made before the end of the fall season.

[Mozart]

I don't see how it is talking out of both sides of one's mouth. If athletes from my home country come home with medals I would heartily congratulate them as I know it is a remarkable achievement worthy of acclaim.

But if all of the horses and riders came out of it unharmed...I would be ecstatic.

[Rallycairn]

^pwynn, that is wonderful to hear, especially from someone with your experience and knowledge.

[riderboy]

Rallcairn; I tried to pull out a quote but my computer skills wouldn't permit it. The "death toll" I think as far as what are viewed as preventable deaths are really the Rolex deaths correct? Two of the Red Hills horses were pulm hemorrahge Jans horse was a warm up accident not a course injury. Tigger was a ruptured aorta. All tragic and no attempt to minimze losses. But Rolex was the "tipping point" because of how those horses died. The original thread of investigation here was brought to my mind after reading CMP's comments in the chronicle and Danny W"s forum piece in the chronicle about Laines fast spring and his reference to coaches who either permit it or don't correct it. Shoot me out of the sky if I am off base, and I may be, but why haven't I heard more about an investiagtion of the riders AND coaches involved in the Rolex deaths?

[flutie1]

Rallcairn; I tried to pull out a quote but my computer skills wouldn't permit it. The "death toll" I think as far as what are viewed as preventable deaths are really the Rolex deaths correct? Two of the Red Hills horses were pulm hemorrahge Jans horse was a warm up accident not a course injury. Tigger was a ruptured aorta. All tragic and no attempt to minimze losses. But Rolex was the "tipping point" because of how those horses died. The original thread of investigation here was brought to my mind after reading CMP's comments in the chronicle and Danny W"s forum piece in the chronicle about Laines fast spring and his reference to coaches who either permit it or don't correct it. Shoot me out of the sky if I am off base, and I may be, but why haven't I heard more about an investiagtion of the riders AND coaches involved in the Rolex deaths?

Really good question, RB. I think too many people are skirting around the pilot error issue.

[RAyers]

I agree that "pilot" error must be examined. Along with that examination must be the TRAINING of said pilot. Are the "pilots" today actually capable of making the needed decisions that come with wisdom? Take the old adage:

There are old pilots. There are bold pilots. There are no old, bold pilots.

I feel pwynn's efforts are great ideas to changing the culture.

Reed

[snoopy]

Really good question, RB. I think too many people are skirting around the pilot error issue.



Lets put this out there:

There is all this talk about rider responsibility, as well as the role their coach plays...E.G. that one's coach bares some responsibility for not telling a student that their riding is dangerous, that they are competing at a level not suitable for their riding level, horse ability etc.

Just "WHO" was coaching Lanie all this year when there was all this talk of her unsafe riding?!;)

[J Swan]

I agree that "pilot" error must be examined. Along with that examination must be the TRAINING of said pilot. Are the "pilots" today actually capable of making the needed decisions that come with wisdom? Take the old adage:

There are old pilots. There are bold pilots. There are no old, bold pilots.

I feel pwynn's efforts are great ideas to changing the culture.

Reed

Since we're posting maxims, here's another one to think on:

Ama equum; Cave magistrum

It's a maxim folks in every discipline would do well to contemplate - if they are able to translate my rather poor Latin.

[La Gringa]

I think the Olympic year thought is relevant and here's why..

Rolex and other major events like it are yearly events. They go on all the time. The amount of money and prep doesn't compare to what it takes to get to the Olympics, or the amount of press the Olympics get.

Building stadiums, special venues and courses are millions and millions of dollars for the countries holding the events. Kentucky already exists and will exist for a long time. The expense of changing something isn't as major or under such a time constraint as it is right now for the Olympics.

Flying horses to Beijing is a major committment for any person/team/country, and the amount of dedication and money it takes for riders to make their respective teams is really high. It's much more consuming than Rolex. It's also much more presigeous.

I feel it may in fact be a factor.... next year after the games are over, I bet the changes actually happen.. but will they in time for the top eventers going to the Olympics this year with the same flaws that are causing the accidents? I think most likely not due to the cost and preparations that have already been made. The Olympics is big big business for everyone involved, the host, the competitors, the trainers, the suppliers, the advertisers etc... Way bigger than any single horse show in the US or elsewhere around the world.

That's my point here. Maybe I am off base, I was just wondering about it..

[flutie1]

Lets put this out there:

There is all this talk about rider responsibility, as well as the role their coach plays...E.G. that one's coach bares some responsibility for not telling a student that their riding is dangerous, that they are competing at a level not suitable for their riding level, horse ability etc.

Just "WHO" was coaching Lanie all this year when there was all this talk of her unsafe riding?!;)

Buck. I don't know if anyone has talked to him or what he feels about it all.

[riderboy]

My latin is not so good, in my field of work it is primum non nocere-first do no harm. Could you please translate the other?

[RAyers]

Since we're posting maxims, here's another one to think on:

Ama equum; Cave magistrum

It's a maxim folks in every discipline would do well to contemplate - if they are able to translate my rather poor Latin.

Not being able to find any translations, I suspect you are saying beware of lots of rules (cave magistrum)? Please correct me.

Reed

[NeverTime]

Buck. I don't know if anyone has talked to him or what he feels about it all.

Yes, her coach is Buck, but as her Rolex diary clearly shows, she was doing the team training sessions all winter, so one would imagine that she was getting help -- and being observed by -- CMP himself at the winter horse trials. Did he ever chastize her or counsel her to slow down at any of those events, or did he hold his criticism until publicly disparaging her riding post-Rolex? I doubt we'll ever know.

[RAyers]

Ah, here is my new guess for, Ama equum; Cave magistrum

Love the horse; Beware the teacher.

Reed

[J Swan]

It kinda goes to "rider responsibility" which is a rather overly broad, vague phrase.

Part of our responsibility as horsemen is to make sure that at the end of the day - the horse is better off.

Is our instructor trying to please us, to retain us as clients, and is the instructor really qualified. Is the instructor willing to tell us what we DON'T want to hear? Instead of moving up a level - do we need to step back - to work on some basics; to work on the horse's suppleness? Is the instructor trying to turn our horse into an automaton; able to point and shoot jumps - but unable to save itself or think for itself? Is the instructor able to work in partnership with the rider to the betterment of the horse?

I live in an area that has some of the country's best horsemen. It's not unusual to see world class horses and riders at local shows, the feed store, and in the hunt field. They're everywhere. It's rather humbling, actually.

And still - there is plenty of godawful instruction available. Folks that will grill you and drill you - get you to shows - help you get those ribbons, make you dependent upon them so you don't dare even ride your horse without their say so....and your horse becomes a pretty stiff, sore miserable horse. But the wall is full of ribbons.

So - Cave magistrum.

[snoopy]

Yes, her coach is Buck, but as her Rolex diary clearly shows, she was doing the team training sessions all winter, so one would imagine that she was getting help -- and being observed by -- CMP himself at the winter horse trials. Did he ever chastize her or counsel her to slow down at any of those events, or did he hold his criticism until publicly disparaging her riding post-Rolex? I doubt we'll ever know.


Well I am glad someone could read between the lines of my post....makes one think doesn't it? Of course it has been said that neither of her coaches "condoned" this type of riding...BUT did they do any thing to stop it?!!!! It is easy to say...after the fact...that they were displeased by dangerous riding. We can all talk of finger pointing...but said fingers point right back when there is an approaching bus.

[riderboy]

Love the horse, beware the teacher. Love it. Damn you guys are smart. I just looked up the cute little gaelic name my Irish horse has - roughly translated it apparently means " You've been swindled " Hmmmmm.

[pwynnnorman]

Love the horse, beware the teacher. Love it. Damn you guys are smart. I just looked up the cute little gaelic name my Irish horse has - roughly translated it apparently means " You've been swindled " Hmmmmm.

ARgh! I was drinking lemonade when I read that and you made me laugh-cough all over my keyboard! :lol::lol:

[J Swan]

Love the horse, beware the teacher. Love it. Damn you guys are smart. I just looked up the cute little gaelic name my Irish horse has - roughly translated it apparently means " You've been swindled " Hmmmmm.

The Irish do have a wonderful sense of humor, don't they!!:lol::lol:

[riderboy]

Yes! He really is a sweetie. The vet was out this morning to address a new "hock issue" a week and a hlf before my first show. I swear he has a little calender in his head with a show schedule. We've been working our a**** off ALL WINTER ! Oh well. we're both on the right side of the dirt so I really have nothing to complain about. Maybe we need a third horse... I'm sorry about the lemonade!

[Carol Ames]

thinking it the other day... since I know people trying to go to Beijing. How would any of us like to be in their shoes knowing what's happened lately to THEIR very good friends and horses? WE a al lhave the freedom of choice.:yes:

[Carol Ames]

thinking it the other day... since I know people trying to go to Beijing. How would any of us like to be in their shoes knowing what's happened lately to THEIR very good friends and horses? WE all have the freedom of choice

[Rallycairn]

Riderboy,

Although the thread has moved on a bit since you posted your question -- I think that, although it is to be hoped that Rolex proves to be a tipping point, I think the problem is the number of deaths over the past few years. And I wouldn't rule out looking at the cardiopulmonary deaths until we've examined whether something about conditioning practices, something about the short format/current courses, or even (as was suggested in another thread) a particular supplement combination of supplements could be contributing to those cardiopulmonary events.

NEVERTIME (or anyone) -- did you mean Buck or CMP disparaged Ashker's riding post-Rolex? Who was it that ascribed both the horse deaths to "gross rider error" -- was that CMP? Thanks

[riderboy]

Rallycairn; Absolutely-there are discussions about the ability to monitor pulmonary artery pressures which is easily done in humans. I don't know about horses. I guess in "triaging" what do we address first and fastest it would be the sort of thng that happened at Rolex. The quote in the Chronicle was in the Rolex coverage article by CMP. He said, and I am paraphrasing-not an exact quote here-You cannot go out cross country and ride like that. Referring to Laine's accident. Again, in my business, we learn from failure by sharing information. It requires removing your ego, holding it out in front of you and letting people whack it with a baseball bat.

[KayBee]

I don't speak/read Latin either, so I tried inserting the phrase into a Latin-English translator. It came up with "ama horse, hollow place instructor."

"Love the horse; beware the instructor" was translated as "diligo equus, caveo instructor"

[J Swan]

A translation is often likened to viewing a Persian rug from the back side.

Reed and Mertzengerstein got it right. What you want to make of it is up to you.

We've got fabulous riders and horses at all levels of the sport - and we've got folks running a horse on an Advanced course on a muddy day - and they've never galloped in the mud.

It was beaten into my head that unless the basics are mastered - gaps in education will be more obvious as one progresses. In some sports - that means you're stuck at a certain level and you go around in circles the rest of your life. Or you quit and take up golf. In the case of eventing or some other horse sports - the consequences are much greater.

[riderboy]

Well, there you go! I found another translation; from latin to English for "3-day eventing" and it came back "testiculus maximus!"

[J Swan]

Bwwwhahaha!

Y'all are nuts to rely on those translator thingies. You gotta go to Catholic school and be smacked in the head by nuns.

I sent an old aunt a letter in Italian with the help of babelfish and boy did I get an earful from my mother about it. Evidently the grand dame thought I was either stupid or deranged. and somehow - it was my mother's fault I had turned out that way. Hence the phone call.

[subk]

Of course it has been said that neither of her coaches "condoned" this type of riding...BUT did they do any thing to stop it?!!!!
I think blaming her crash on CMP and Buck is quite the stretch.

I was there. I saw some of her jumping effort at the previous fences. I don't think she *chose* to ride the fence in the manner she did--I think she was stuck with a horse that wasn't appropriately responsive to a half-halt. Along with that I'd say the problem wasn't so much the speed as it was the lack of balance. There was a slight dip in the terrain before the fence that would not have gone unnoticed on a XC walk. Knowing that one needed to pay special attention to getting rebalanced before it would have been too basic for either Lainey, Buck or any other rider or trainer at the level to miss.

Generally what I've seen are that the horses with the fastest times at A/I are the ones that are the most adjustable, NOT the "run aways." I can't automatically buy in to a presumed tie-in with fast times at other venues with the missed distance at Rolex.

If you haven't read Wofford's most recent commentary about speed and balance you really should, because Lainey had a balance problem more so than a speed problem.

[JER]

Knowing that one needed to pay special attention to getting rebalanced before it would have been too basic for either Lainey, Buck or any other rider or trainer at the level to miss.


Sadly, this isn't the case. People can get really far without good basics. I don't know anything about Laine, never saw her ride, same goes for Buck. But I do know of other riders who've ridden at CCI**** level and did not have good basics, including one who did not know the wheres, whens, hows or whys of rebalancing on XC.

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=subk;3215695]I think blaming her crash on CMP and Buck is quite the stretch.

I was there. I saw some of her jumping effort at the previous fences. I don't think she *chose* to ride the fence in the manner she did--I think she was stuck with a horse that wasn't appropriately responsive to a half-halt. Along with that I'd say the problem wasn't so much the speed as it was the lack of balance.
QUOTE]






I am not blaming "anyone" for that fall...no one

.....and "stuck with a horse that wasn't appropriately responsive to a half halt".....I have heard it all.
So you are saying that she is was riding a horse that she did not have the ability to contol or balance before a jump on a four star course? If that were the case should she not have pulled up then?

[Sannois]

reading all these threads on this BB. If Lainie is reading them. Gee she just got out of the hospital, lost her horse, could have lost her life. And here are a bunch of folks slamming her riding, her horse, etc.
WOW.:eek::no:

[snoopy]

reading all these threads on this BB. If Lainie is reading them. Gee she just got out of the hospital, lost her horse, could have lost her life. And here are a bunch of folks slamming her riding, her horse, etc.
WOW.:eek::no:


Kim

My posts are in response to other posters remarks/thoughts...not to lanie herself. When do you think it the right time to discuss something on a discussion forum?

[bambam]

I don't think people are slamming Laine- they are discussing what happened without insulting her and that is appropriate given what happened and where we are in the sport even if it means she might have made a mistake.
I am not sure I agree with subk's assessment that she was trying to half-halt but not getting a response. It did not appear to me that Laine half-halted or brought back her first ride before the basket either but that horse sorted it out himself (maybe because he has 4 star experience). Don't know but that is what it looked like to me.
I don't think we can assume that either of her coaches never said anything about her speed x-c- likely they did.

[riderboy]

Frankly if wwe care about Laine or any other rider in this sport this is an absolute necessity. If we are to learn from our mistakes we must know what those mistakes are. I'm a LLR, but when I read some of these comments printed in the Chronicle I just have to go WTF ? Why are we not really examining this more closely?

[subk]

I don't think we can assume that either of her coaches never said anything about her speed x-c- likely they did.
Why do you say it's likely they did? My upper level horse made time whenever I wanted him to. The more technical the course the better my time was in relation to the other horses in the division. His "speediness" was a direct reflection to how incredibly easy he was to manage on course. Now, unless you saw Laine run around at earlier events and can tell me that her fast times were a result of bad riding instead of good riding I think we should all stay away from speculation, innuendo and rumor as to what her coaches may or may not have said--since we don't know.

So you are saying that she is was riding a horse that she did not have the ability to contol or balance before a jump on a four star course? If that were the case should she not have pulled up then?
Yes and yes. I covered all this the week after Rolex, and I was very frank with what I thought of the horsemanship she and several others demonstrated. I think that that is fair. What I don't think is fair is speculating about horsemanship that wasn't witnessed and is purely speculative.


Frankly if wwe care about Laine or any other rider in this sport this is an absolute necessity. If we are to learn from our mistakes we must know what those mistakes are.
I strongly agree. riverboy, for what's it's worth here's what I learned from my experience at Rolex this year: Rotational falls happen in one of three instances. Lucinda Green talks about balance, impulsion and line being the three most important aspects of jumping XC. Without balance you get FB's fall. Without impulsion you get TQM's fall. Without line you get Northern Spy's fall. (His fall was not a rotational as I don't believe he actually got his front feet off the ground before he hit the fence--but I think it demonstrates my point.) I also learned that (although it is anecdotal) that these types of falls seem NOT to come out of the blue, but instead they follow mistakes (often the same ones) earlier in the course. It impressed upon me how important it is in these days of kinder and gentler fence construction that bad jumping efforts--technically clean though they may be--must be taken extremely seriously by a rider and each viewed as an event that raises the risks at the following fences. In my opinion the last part is the most important lesson for the LL rider.

Returning to the OP's topic: If it's not an Olympic year it's a World Championship year, or a Pan Am year. Only 1 in every 4 years does Rolex not lead up to an extremely coveted position on an international team. So I can't think that the pressure was significantly greater than any other average year.

[bambam]

subk- you are putting words in mouth that I did not say
where did I say or imply that she rode badly at every event where she made time?

[subk]

subk- you are putting words in mouth that I did not say
where did I say or imply that she rode badly at every event where she made time?

I must be confused. It is not my intent to put words in your mouth. This is what you said:
I don't think we can assume that either of her coaches never said anything about her speed x-c- likely they did.
If you thought her speed at earlier events was appropriate why would you think it was "likely" her coaches discussed it?

My only point here is to remind everybody that it is one thing to discuss the things we witnessed or have first hand knowledge of. It is quite another to start assuming what people might or might not have said. Unless someone comes forward and says definitively and publicly what Buck or CMP did or didn't said to her, I think it is somewhat unfair to speculate on their role in the incident--either good or bad.

[bambam]

I guess I was not clear- since I only talked about her rides at Rolex, that was all I was referring to in terms of the comment about her speed and coaches (and I am not speculating). I have no opinion on her rides at the other events

[subk]

I only talked about her rides at Rolex, that was all I was referring to in terms of the comment about her speed and coaches
Sorry, bambam I miss understood you.

[Carol Ames]

http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?section=safety&id=1516

Updated: May 13, 2008

http://www.useventing.com/thumbnail/phpThumb.php?w=116&src=/resources/images/usea_programs/USEA_logo.jpg (https://dashboard.useventing.com/dashboard/)Following the launch of its Equine Research Task Force at the end of March, the USEA is increasing its efforts to secure funding for studies into equine pulmonary hemorrhage and other sudden cardiovascular events. The loss of Direct Merger and Leprechaun's Rowdy Boy, who both died from hemorrhages during competition in March, led to the establishment of the Task Force. The recent loss of another upper level Event horse, Tigger Too, in what appears to be similar circumstances, has spurred on the effort as we try to determine what can be done to detect and prevent pulmonary hemorrhages and aneurysms in Event horses.

Said USEA President Kevin Baumgardner, "We are extremely concerned about these incidents, and this research project is a matter of the first priority for us. While we know that horses can suffer fatal aneurysms any time and place--even while turned out in a field--the fact remains that if there is anything that can be done to detect and prevent such events, we at the USEA want our members and indeed all Eventers worldwide to have access to that knowledge. Saving the life of even one of our marvelous equine partners is well worth it."

[whoacorwin]

here is my two cents worth....

Two years ago. when Buck was riding Frodo for Lainey while she was recovering from her injury she had while riding Jamie at Rolex, he advised her Frodo was not the horse to reach her goals amd suggested she sell him.Mind you he felt he would be a incredible One or Two Star horse.

last year at this time after a season of training and competing in Florida,and I quote Val Ashker,Frodo returned to VA and "had gone crazy"..you could not safely lead him from field to barn, he was so undone.She was considering retiring him to be a trail horse at this time. Then Jamie died at Jersey Fresh.

The Ashker's got very pissed at me after I expressed my opinion about AT at Rolex 07, so i have not had anything to do with them since shortly after Jamie died. Maybe Frodo had a change of heart...i cannot truthfully say one way or another, but it makes me very upset to think he could have been pushed past his limit and paid so horribly for this.

[riderboy]

reading all these threads on this BB. If Lainie is reading them. Gee she just got out of the hospital, lost her horse, could have lost her life. And here are a bunch of folks slamming her riding, her horse, etc.
WOW.:eek::no:Unfortunately she tragically missed a jump that hadn't had a jumping penalty in 3 years. It doesn't have to be anyones "fault" but I think it must be investigated with everything else in our sport that has brought all this criticism down on us. If the spce shuttle Challenger had not been investigated would it have been worth sparing the feelings of the engineers who OK'd the sub freezing launch to sacrifice another crew?

[Twomanydawgs]

From what Mark Phillips said...she was riding too fast....but people are getting flamed on another thread for discussing what he said. I don't understand why it has to be so hush hush...it was out there for the public to read...but on this sacred bb you get flamed for discussing it??? Some ppl on this bb really need to get their heads out of their butts.

[riderboy]

Dawgs; I know what you mean, and I think people are very hungry for answers to complex problems quickly. You know, anger is basically fear when you get right down to it and I think there is a deeper fear of somehow losing or not being in control. As I've said, attitude reflects leadership.. Where is it particularly from the ULR's.? Into this void step the mudslingers and the personal attacks.Other threads address how these tragedies are addressed in other areas of the "real world" and I think they need to be incorporated into eventing. Then we can get some real answers.