Rolex withdrawing suppoirt....???

[Twomanydawgs]

Read on another bb that Rolex is withdrawing it's sponsorship for cx events...any truth to this??...

[Kementari]

I make it a general policy not to believe anything I read on a BB that is unsubstantiated...

[CoolMeadows]

No doubt they've received a lot of negative feedback and while I do not know whether or not they have officially withdrawn sponsorship, it would certainly be in their best interest at this point.

[Twomanydawgs]

Uh oh Cool....zipping up your flame suit for you...but do agree with you...ZZZZZIIIIPPPPP...

[J Swan]

No doubt they've received a lot of negative feedback and while I do not know whether or not they have officially withdrawn sponsorship, it would certainly be in their best interest at this point.

CoolMeadows - It's pretty darn obvious that you don't care for any horse sports at all. In which case, you really don't have a reason to visit this BB now, do you.

In fact, I've not read one word that offered any solutions, a suggestion, an intelligent observation that would lead to an interesting discussion. Just cheering on the notion that protesters shut down event - and hopes that AR groups try and get horse sports banned.

Usually trolls are banned from this BB. And I'm sorry to say - you're sure as heck acting like one.

I'd be more interested in what you wrote if it you were educated enough on this subject to write anything intelligent. Everyone here is interested in the animals welfare - first and foremost. Yet you don't even acknowledge that any person - other than an animal rights advocate - could possible be interested in a welfare issue. That is the reasoning of the fanatic.

Either you're ignorant or obtuse. Either way - you are contributing nothing.

[fernie fox]

Read on another bb that Rolex is withdrawing it's sponsorship for cx events...any truth to this??...

They love the coverage they get from Badminton and other events around the Globe.

[snoopy]

I can see how Rolex has benefited greatly from supporting equestrian sport...It is a great market to associate a high end product.

But NO company wants to be part associated with bad press hence the reason sponsors do infact pull the plug on athletes, television programmes, actors, singers etc who have disgraced themselves...it would seem that the company would be promoting what ever issue is at hand.

So I am not holding my breathe that there is any truth to a rumour started on a BB, but would understand completely should a company like Rolex decided that they needed to distance themselves from all of the stife that certain equestrian sports are facing.

[CoolMeadows]

JSwan, I got sick and tired of months of spinning circles with absolutely no result, so yes - I will cheer the AR groups on to shut down eventing since it's more than apparent that eventers aren't capable of taking care of themselves or their animals at all. It would be smart if eventing would take the initiative and shut itself down momentarily.

I'm not sure why you think I'm a troll because I think it would be wise for Rolex, and other sponsors, to withdraw support for eventing. Why would a company want to be associated with a "sport" that by all outwards appearances has spiraled completely out of control, is seemingly headed by an utterly incompetent organization and is killing horses left and right?

I'm very much for most other disciplines, so no - not against equestrian sports at all. Against upper level eventing, yes.

[Jumphigh83]

Gasp..I may be defending my old friend coolie but why is it being a troll to opine regarding the best interest of a huge international co like Rolex to disassociate itself with a sport that is having ...well....growing pains in regard to safety?? I agree with Coolie. Doesn't look to good to have a full page spread in Vanity Fair with a comatose horse/rider wearing their Rolex..takes a licking and keeps on ticking...wait...that is a Timex....
Sorry to be so flip but she has a right to present her opinion with out being called out as a troll. I sincerely hope that the powers that be get the problem under control...

[flyingchange]

Doesn't look to good to have a full page spread in Vanity Fair with a comatose horse/rider wearing their Rolex..takes a licking and keeps on ticking...wait...that is a Timex....

OMG, ROFLMAO

Thank YOU!

That was good.

[JER]

If anyone, like the OP, actually wants an answer to this question, why don't you contact Rolex? They'll give you an answer.

[flypony74]

....eventers aren't capable of taking care of themselves or their animals at all.....

This is a gross generalization that I personally find incredibly offensive. I am a lower level eventer, and my horses are happy, healthy, and very well-prepared anytime we set foot on the trailer to compete. You won't find a discipline that takes better care of their horses (and it is usually the rider wrapping legs, walking their horse, etc....not a groom). Just because the ULs have been plagued by recent tragedies doesn't mean the individuals in the sport do not take care of their animals. Express your opinion but keep the inflammatory, offensive statements to yourself.

[VicarageVee]

Rolex is not withdrawing support.

They feel that while the recent events have been tragic, their partnership with eventing is longstanding, and no doubt the sport will wether the current storm.


And on another note, I'm sick of how morbid this whole BB is becoming. All anyone does is complain about eventing, about how f***ed our sport is, how riders lack responsibility, and how political our sport is. Seriously? Get over it or leave it. I used to be able to ask questions on this BB about horse care, and how one would negotiate sunken roads, and now that's all gone. This water is getting pretty toxic, and while I once felt that these voices needed to be heard, were positive for change, and fundamentally concerned for the welfare of our horses and riders, now I am concerned that this is all just churning up the water for shits and giggles--something that sure as hell won't help eventing (there are, of course, exceptions, and I'm sure you all know you are...and thank you). Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go do hill work and start thinking about changing eventing on a local level, with trainers and ULRs in my Area, and not spend anymore time dealing with the negativity and antagonizing voices on this BB. I'd love it to go back to being a forum where we can speak openly, and ask every kind of question, but I can see that that is unlikely. Sorry for being a curmudgeon, everyone hits a wall now and again.

[SparklePlenty]

Rolex is not withdrawing support.


And on another note, I'm sick of how morbid this whole BB is becoming. All anyone does is complain about eventing, about how f***ed our sport is, how riders lack responsibility, and how political our sport is. Seriously? Get over it or leave it. I used to be able to ask questions on this BB about horse care, and how one would negotiate sunken roads, and now that's all gone. This water is getting pretty toxic, and while I once felt that these voices needed to be heard, were positive for change, and fundamentally concerned for the welfare of our horses and riders, now I am concerned that this is all just churning up the water for shits and giggles--something that sure as hell won't help eventing (there are, of course, exceptions, and I'm sure you all know you are...and thank you).

ditto

[annikak]

Since this thread is snarky, I am going to BE snarky

EVenters take GOOD care of their horses- damn it. Shit is happening, and they are looking into it. This is GOOD. There are questions....and the horsemen are looking for answers. That's horsemanship. I do not think ONE person who has had something horrendous happen to them would ever think they were "okay" in their actions. Not one of them. Everyone of them will examine what happened, and re-lives that moment over and over.

What is cruel?

Unbalanced people bouncing around on their horses backs
Starvation
Keeping an obviously sore, lame, sick horse alive because you don't want to pay for euthanasia.
Horses living in horrid areas, exposed to elements that they cannot get away fromthat is just the beginning of my laundry list of cruel horse "things". Having vet care at the ready, being fed and groomed, and having a rider be as balanced as possible does not fall into cruel. the abuse that some backyard horses go thru is far FAR worse then what we see at Rolex. This is not to diminish what has happened, which EVERYONE agrees is god-awful. But...really, overall, the horse that lives a day-to-day hell is much worse off in the end then a horse eventing. I could even agree that running a 2yo is horrid and dangerous and I am not for it. But overall, those horses- racers or eventers or any horse that has a "job", in their day-to-day life are better taken care of then the majority of horses out there. But...eventers? Sorry, NOT cruel.

[CoolMeadows]

I didn't mean they don't take good care of their horses as far as day to day husbandry. I meant that it's become clear that the riders and horses at the upper levels are no longer able to keep themselves safe - they have demonstrated that they can't take care of themselves or their horses in competition. Over and over and over, week after week. And since nothing's come of it but speculation and idle talk, you guys have fully invited outside agents to jump in with both feet and shut it down. The actions taken by USEA to this point aren't sufficient.

[Glimmerglass]

The Chronicle of the horse did a fine article on the Rolex sponsorship - Apr 18 2008 "A Timely Tradition" by Mollie Bailey - which spoke of Rolex's role with Equestrian Events Inc. (EEI) and further involvement in other equestrian games.

Keep in mind no sponsorship deal at this point is renewed annually. While not disclosed I suspect Rolex and EEI today have a multi-year partnership in place for continued "Kentucky Three-Day" title support. Thus a knee-jerk reaction to one bad year isn't made with such short sighted vision.

Rolex is also an official partner of the FEI and title partner for the Rolex/FEI Show Jumping World Cup, etc. They are also a partner of the 2010 WEG there at the Kentucky Horse Park. So it would be logically almost impossible to sever ties - even if they wanted to - with such a rapid decision.

For the record Rolex sponsored the EEI (Kentucky Three-Day) starting with 1981's event; Burghley was added in 1999 and Badminton in 2000. They've been through the ups and downs for all these years and when I spoke with the Rolex VP this year (on Sunday) he was very enthusiastic about the sport.

Bottom line I'm sure anti-eventing and anti-horse sport foes will continue to suggest sponsorships are ending as well as place pressure on those who do sponsor the more visible shows. Example, Yum Brands! has already reviewed their on-going sponsorship of the Kentucky Derby and per Advertising Age will take no action to change that. As always - just because some single dolt behind a computer posted something in cyberspace doesn't make it true :D

[wannabegifted]

since it's more than apparent that eventers aren't capable of taking care of themselves or their animals at all.


Gasp! I am saddened to see this.

However, I do think it is a result of high emotions at this time. You will see a lot of people who think we are "nuts" or "crazy" start saying things like this, so I think it is up to eventers to take the responsibility and say "hmm, maybe something drastic NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW!" so people don't say things like this, and we nip whatever it is in the bud.

I know Coolmeadows and trust me, an honest and intelligent person isn't going to make a cutting comment without grounds, however drastic it may be. Do I think she is correct? Not a chance, but I think there may be some validity to the essence of her posts.

[Jazzy Lady]

I didn't mean they don't take good care of their horses as far as day to day husbandry. I meant that it's become clear that the riders and horses at the upper levels are no longer able to keep themselves safe - they have demonstrated that they can't take care of themselves or their horses in competition. Over and over and over, week after week. And since nothing's come of it but speculation and idle talk, you guys have fully invited outside agents to jump in with both feet and shut it down. The actions taken by USEA to this point aren't sufficient.

You make some very gross generalizations. How dare you say that all upper level riders ride their horses dangerously. Changes ARE being made. Read the other threads where even the smaller events have started implementing frangible pins. How about the huge safety summit where members are invited to attend and be heard. I think the USEA and the USEF are doing a fine job including their members. They are showing that they want a change and they want involvement, or else they would scurry off to a hole somewhere and try to cover up what is happening, and they are not doing that. Change is a process. It is taking place.

[whadyasay]

CoolMeadows - It's pretty darn obvious that you don't care for any horse sports at all. In which case, you really don't have a reason to visit this BB now, do you.

In fact, I've not read one word that offered any solutions, a suggestion, an intelligent observation that would lead to an interesting discussion. Just cheering on the notion that protesters shut down event - and hopes that AR groups try and get horse sports banned.

Usually trolls are banned from this BB. And I'm sorry to say - you're sure as heck acting like one.

I'd be more interested in what you wrote if it you were educated enough on this subject to write anything intelligent. Everyone here is interested in the animals welfare - first and foremost. Yet you don't even acknowledge that any person - other than an animal rights advocate - could possible be interested in a welfare issue. That is the reasoning of the fanatic.

Either you're ignorant or obtuse. Either way - you are contributing nothing.

How is it that you know because a person is glad that a sponsor is withdrawing that they don't know anything about ANY horse sport, how do you know - assumptions are IGNORANT!!! As far as I know Rolex is STILL supporting show jumping. We (outsiders and NOT eventers) are only reacting to what is truth, multiple horses dying in rotational flips due to people trying to make it to the Olympics. I am definitely NOT ignorant and have a wall full of degrees to know so and still think that YEAH, no funding is the only thing that is going to save some of these "top level" horses. Deal with the truth, it is what it is, your sport that you are vehemently defending is DANGEROUS and I could care less about the people but the horses are being dragged along for the ride (no pun intended). I have a flame suit and an extinguisher so bring it on....... :D

[JanWeber]

I fail to see how the accusatory statements made on this thread in any way contribute to resolution of what has been a challenging and tragic time for eventing. If you have nothing useful to add - keep it to yourself. There's a big difference between pondering recent events online and throwing inflammatory remarks out there. I have a vast amount of respect for how eventers, in the overwhelming majority, partner with and care for their horses. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but defending the sport against your ridiculous outbursts takes time away from evryone else's working on how best to resolve an admitted problem...

[CoolMeadows]

Gasp! I am saddened to see this.

However, I do think it is a result of high emotions at this time. You will see a lot of people who think we are "nuts" or "crazy" start saying things like this, so I think it is up to eventers to take the responsibility and say "hmm, maybe something drastic NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW!" so people don't say things like this, and we nip whatever it is in the bud.

I know Coolmeadows and trust me, an honest and intelligent person isn't going to make a cutting comment without grounds, however drastic it may be. Do I think she is correct? Not a chance, but I think there may be some validity to the essence of her posts.

I'm sorry Erika. A few eventers here know me and I know that my thoughts are very unpopular. You know I have total respect for your riding and horsecare, but your sport is driving me to distraction! I really wish something drastic would be done now... like closing up shop at the upper levels until all frangible pins are in place, course design is thoroughly investigated and at least a preliminary study regarding the relationship of pulmonary bleeds and aortic ruptures to falls (are they truly the cause or are they the effect? I haven't seen a clear, professional report leaning one way or the other yet) is completed. Yes it would be costly, but continuing as is will cost everyone much more in the long run.

You make some very gross generalizations. How dare you say that all upper level riders ride their horses dangerously. Changes ARE being made. Read the other threads where even the smaller events have started implementing frangible pins. How about the huge safety summit where members are invited to attend and be heard. I think the USEA and the USEF are doing a fine job including their members. They are showing that they want a change and they want involvement, or else they would scurry off to a hole somewhere and try to cover up what is happening, and they are not doing that. Change is a process. It is taking place.

I do know about the proposals and the safety summit, but it's not enough. A lower level course voluntarily implemented frangible pins on the back of open oxers if I read correctly - how does having the back half of a fence collapse prevent a rotational fall? Kudos to them for making a start, but it's the ULs that have come apart at the seams and need to be doing this sort of thing asap. The proposal to suspend riders and horses after rotational falls seems like a too little, too late approach rather than addressing the prevention of the falls. The safety summit is still weeks away and may be more of the same talking in circles. Again, why can something not be done NOW? Sure, it would be costly to shut down the competition year temporarily but it would be a good PR move and would save lives in all likelihood.

[Kementari]

CoolMeadows - It's pretty darn obvious that you don't care for any horse sports at all. In which case, you really don't have a reason to visit this BB now, do you.

In fact, I've not read one word that offered any solutions, a suggestion, an intelligent observation that would lead to an interesting discussion. Just cheering on the notion that protesters shut down event - and hopes that AR groups try and get horse sports banned.

Usually trolls are banned from this BB. And I'm sorry to say - you're sure as heck acting like one.

I'd be more interested in what you wrote if it you were educated enough on this subject to write anything intelligent. Everyone here is interested in the animals welfare - first and foremost. Yet you don't even acknowledge that any person - other than an animal rights advocate - could possible be interested in a welfare issue. That is the reasoning of the fanatic.

Either you're ignorant or obtuse. Either way - you are contributing nothing.

Funny that the poster in question has done nothing to address the substantive points of this post.

And people wonder why she/he/it is being called a troll...

[whadyasay]

I fail to see how the accusatory statements made on this thread in any way contribute to resolution of what has been a challenging and tragic time for eventing. If you have nothing useful to add - keep it to yourself. There's a big difference between pondering recent events online and throwing inflammatory remarks out there. I have a vast amount of respect for how eventers, in the overwhelming majority, partner with and care for their horses. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but defending the sport against your ridiculous outbursts takes time away from evryone else's working on how best to resolve an admitted problem...

so what you are saying is keep quiet and don't have an opinion cuz we eventers are sick of hearing it. too bad, too late, too many public tragedies. get over it, if you want to play hard you have to pay hard. don't come on a public board and tell people to keep it to themselves when they are disgusted with factual happenings. sorry, you should have been fixing the sport LONG before this happened. You had your shot and you blew it.

[displacedyank]

Wow...this is sad, I'm starting to feel like I'm on the dressage forum. :( The day that eventers finally turn on one another.........

[HelenC]

Wow...this is sad, I'm starting to feel like I'm on the dressage forum. :( The day that eventers finally turn on one another.........

Not quite. The eventers on this forum aren't turning against each other. Instead trying (unfortunately with little affect) to quieten the naysayers that aren't eventers.

[CoolMeadows]

To keep things totally straight, that would be ex-eventer. And still interested in piddling around with babies over the little stuff, but totally shocked by how mismanaged this whole situation has been.

[Twomanydawgs]

I'm with you Cool...and if you don't like what is being said y'all can feel free to leave...but I still won't be surprised if Rolex does withdraw their support...and GOD FORBID someone sics PETA on eventing....they are having a stroke over Eight Belles...wait till they get a load of whats going on in eventing...how about they shorten the courses so the rider's are not having to kick and beat their exhausted horses to keep going? and why can't they implement something like what they do in the jumpers?...2 refusals and you are out of there...a fall off and you are out of there...hit more than 3x with the whip...OUTTA THERE...Tigger croaked at what fence 28?? 28??:eek: 28 or more jumps is asking wayyyyyy too much of our horses...promise we won't think any less of eventers if they do something like I suggested above. These are just my opinions...I'm sure I will get sliced and diced for them just as Cool has been.

[riderboy]

so what you are saying is keep quiet and don't have an opinion cuz we eventers are sick of hearing it. too bad, too late, too many public tragedies. get over it, if you want to play hard you have to pay hard. don't come on a public board and tell people to keep it to themselves when they are disgusted with factual happenings. sorry, you should have been fixing the sport LONG before this happened. You had your shot and you blew it. Actually we HAVE been fixing the sport. Frangible pins, fences that DON'T look like fence #2 at the World Championships in Kiev. Better Vet care, improved helmets and safety vests, concern and discussions about weather conditions at the Olympics in Hong Kong, Instructor Certification Programs, and on and on. Not to say we don't have more work to do and we WILL do it.. I am personally appalled by the rush to judgement by obviously uninformed people. Character assassination based on groundless speculation and innuendo. I love this sport and always will. If you want to be a bomb thrower go ahead. You can't destroy this sport because there are too many people who love it. Too many people with orthopedic hardware and big smiles. I love you guys!

[CoolMeadows]

Hey Two, one of the proposals is actually "fall off and you're out". Way overdue but glad to see it since there have been cases of riders with severe injuries getting back on to finish up only to end up in the hospital for days after competition. Just asking for a disaster on course, so at least that bit of insanity's been addressed. There is an "excessive use of whip" rule already in effect, but I couldn't tell you what it is off the top of my head. Not sure if there's a number in place or not.

[Sannois]

Read on another bb that Rolex is withdrawing it's sponsorship for cx events...any truth to this??...
MAkes no sense. Like someone said be careful what you believe on the internet! :eek::yes:

[Sannois]

I'm with you Cool...and if you don't like what is being said y'all can feel free to leave...but I still won't be surprised if Rolex does withdraw their support...and GOD FORBID someone sics PETA on eventing....they are having a stroke over Eight Belles...wait till they get a load of whats going on in eventing...how about they shorten the courses so the rider's are not having to kick and beat their exhausted horses to keep going? and why can't they implement something like what they do in the jumpers?...2 refusals and you are out of there...a fall off and you are out of there...hit more than 3x with the whip...OUTTA THERE...Tigger croaked at what fence 28?? 28??:eek: 28 or more jumps is asking wayyyyyy too much of our horses...promise we won't think any less of eventers if they do something like I suggested above. These are just my opinions...I'm sure I will get sliced and diced for them just as Cool has been.
like you just enjoy fueling the fires of Hysteria! :sigh:

[retreadeventer]

...... Again, why can something not be done NOW? Sure, it would be costly to shut down the competition year temporarily but it would be a good PR move and would save lives in all likelihood.


Because this is a democracy, and not a dictatorship -- and our organizations and associations serve at our pleasure and for our benefit, and US is YOU. All of our opinions, not just your point of view with it's inherent urgency, are important. No one person gets to decide all rules and directives. We get together, we discuss, we decide, we implement, and thank God it is that way and not the way you want it, a dictatorship with knee jerk reactions and hurry scurry, throw-out-the-baby-with-the-bathwater mentality. I am in favor of the RIGHT decisions being made, not the FASTEST. Isn't speed what is getting the sport into trouble?

[PhoenixFarm]

You know, rushing in to a decision without appropriate study, evidence, and data, is what got us the d@mn short format, and it's now clearly incumbent problems, in the first place. So excuse me if I'd prefer the powers that be not leap blindly into some other drastic change without sorting through things with a bit of time and temperance.

[Twomanydawgs]

Guess what has been happening is just ducky with Sanni...the only one's getting hysterical are the poor horses and well they should be...getting hysterical is PETA's job...be afraid when that happens...very afraid.

[CoolMeadows]

Because this is a democracy, and not a dictatorship -- and our organizations and associations serve at our pleasure and for our benefit, and US is YOU. All of our opinions, not just your point of view with it's inherent urgency, are important. No one person gets to decide all rules and directives. We get together, we discuss, we decide, we implement, and thank God it is that way and not the way you want it, a dictatorship with knee jerk reactions and hurry scurry, throw-out-the-baby-with-the-bathwater mentality. I am in favor of the RIGHT decisions being made, not the FASTEST. Isn't speed what is getting the sport into trouble?

But while you're discussing, deciding and implementing, more horses are dying. So what's wrong with closing down the ULs momentarily while doing the aforementioned discussing, deciding, and implementing? It's clear there is a big problem in the ULs, you can't deny that. To continue on whilst people talk themselves in circles is pure insanity given the past 8 weeks' deaths. I didn't say make dramatic ineffective changes today, I said my opinion is the ULs should be shut down for the time being while all angles are investigated so that real, useful changes that are founded in research can be implemented without more horses dying. You do realize that the sport can not possibly survive another UL horse death on course while all these discussions take place, right? The envelope has exploded already!

[Kementari]

Four refusals over the course or three at a single fence (xc) is elimination. It was recently reduced from five over the course because of safety concerns. (But we eventers aren't doing ANYTHING about safety. :rolleyes:)

One of the proposed rule changes is any rider fall=elimination. I happen to support that, but there has been some (quite intelligent) discussion of pros and cons.

Excess use of whip is already in place. The rule is actually stricter in eventing than in some disciplines. (But we don't care about our horses.)

EV110 Abuse of Horses
...
3. WHIP. The use of the whip must be for a good reason, at an appropriate time, in the right place, and with appropriate severity.
a. Reason—the whip must only be used either as an aid to encourage the horse forward, or as a reprimand. It must never be used to vent a rider’s temper. Such use is always excessive.
b. Time—As an aid, the only appropriate time is when a horse is reluctant to go forward under normal aids of the seat and legs. As a reprimand, the only appropriate time is immediately after a horse has been disobedient, e.g. napping or refusing. The whip should not be used after elimination. The whip should not be used after a horse has jumped the last fence on a course.
c. Place—As an aid to go forward, the whip may be used down the shoulder or behind the rider’s leg. As a reprimand, it must only be used behind the rider’s leg. It must never be used overhand, e.g. a whip in the right hand being used on the left flank. The use of a whip on a horse’s head, neck, etc., is always excessive use.
d. Severity—As a reprimand only, a horse may be hit hard. However, it should never be hit more than three times for any one incident. If a horse is marked by the whip, e.g. the skin is broken, its use is excessive.

[PhoenixFarm]

Four refusals over the course or three at a single fence (xc) is elimination. It was recently reduced from five over the course because of safety concerns. (But we eventers aren't doing ANYTHING about safety. :rolleyes:)

One of the proposed rule changes is any rider fall=elimination. I happen to support that, but there has been some (quite intelligent) discussion of pros and cons.

Excess use of whip is already in place. The rule is actually stricter in eventing than in some disciplines. (But we don't care about our horses.)

Having just spent the weekend in jumper land, I gotta agree and say I saw more whip action in one level 2 jumper class than in the whole of Rolex. Not saying it was abusive per se, just saying coming from our world where the use of the whip is so srictly regulated, it was eye opening to see it being used so freely.

[Kementari]

But while you're discussing, deciding and implementing, more horses are dying. So what's wrong with closing down the ULs momentarily while doing the aforementioned discussing, deciding, and implementing? It's clear there is a big problem in the ULs, you can't deny that. To continue on whilst people talk themselves in circles is pure insanity given the past 8 weeks' deaths. You do realize that the sport can not possibly survive another UL horse death on course while all these discussions take place, right? The envelope has exploded already!

Clearly, in your rush to judge us all, you have missed where a decent number of eventers on this board (myself included) support this notion. There was an entire thread about it, for pity's sake.

But, see, no matter how much we support the notion, we can't just make it happen. It has to be proposed, discussed, and voted on. I presume it will come up at the summit in KY, in fact. And, quite frankly, even if it DID happen, we are only talking about USEF events - we (as in, members of this board or USEA) don't get a say in what the FEI does (more's the pity).

[CoolMeadows]

The "we can't make it stop" is the problem. USEA and USEF are sticking their heads in the sand big time by not making a dramatic move to truly show they're taking it seriously... scheduling a safety summit isn't enough. AR groups will close it down for them. The horses come first, and the organizations aren't showing that this is their viewpoint right now.

[Twomanydawgs]

Four refusals over the course or three at a single fence (xc) is elimination. It was recently reduced from five over the course because of safety concerns. (But we eventers aren't doing ANYTHING about safety. :rolleyes:)

One of the proposed rule changes is any rider fall=elimination. I happen to support that, but there has been some (quite intelligent) discussion of pros and cons.

Excess use of whip is already in place. The rule is actually stricter in eventing than in some disciplines. (But we don't care about our horses.)

I don't know about what other's have seen but I have seen here in Ocala excessive use of the whip on obviously tired horses. They were not stopping dirty etc...they were TIRED...anyone who has been around horses long enough recognizes a exhausted horse whether they are riding it or watching it. I'm not saying ALL the eventers but enough of them did it so that I noticed it and it was not at just one event.

[riderboy]

How is it that you know because a person is glad that a sponsor is withdrawing that they don't know anything about ANY horse sport, how do you know - assumptions are IGNORANT!!! As far as I know Rolex is STILL supporting show jumping. We (outsiders and NOT eventers) are only reacting to what is truth, multiple horses dying in rotational flips due to people trying to make it to the Olympics. I am definitely NOT ignorant and have a wall full of degrees to know so and still think that YEAH, no funding is the only thing that is going to save some of these "top level" horses. Deal with the truth, it is what it is, your sport that you are vehemently defending is DANGEROUS and I could care less about the people but the horses are being dragged along for the ride (no pun intended). I have a flame suit and an extinguisher so bring it on....... :D
Well, it would help if you REALLY wanted to be constructive get your facts straight. Frodo is the only horse who died as a result of a rotational fall-one too many I agree, but not the " ...multiple horses dying in rotational flips." Tigger bled out from his aorta and we are awaiting the final autopsy report. IMO very unlikely secondary to trauma. Our sport is dangerous. If I talk to my work colleagues they think getting on any horse is dangerous at any time! Sadly, you ARE ignorant, wall full of degrees notwithstanding. Ignorant is not necessarily bad, hopefully when all is said and done and we have more answers you won't be so ignorant. These horse are bred to be sport horses-it's what they do. Let our upper level riders and leadership sort this out. And read Danny Warringtons article in the Chronicle.

[Kementari]

How, precisely, do you think we (as in the rank and file) are SUPPOSED to make it stop? We've talked and written to the powers that be, and they've heard us - but no one has the individual power to just STOP the sport. IT'S NOT A DICTATORSHIP.

We're dealing with reality here, not PETA fantasy-land.

[Twomanydawgs]

"bred to be sport horses"...if that is the case than I certainly would not be infusing any of my mares with pure dumbblood genes..and most certainly not to do high level eventing..some look lonely without their plows...would definately want alot of Tb. blood coursing thru those veins.

[Kementari]

Well, it would help if you REALLY wanted to be constructive get your facts straight. Frodo is the only horse who died as a result of a rotational fall-one too many I agree, but not the " ...multiple horses dying in rotational flips." Tigger bled out from his aorta and we are awaiting the final autopsy report. IMO very unlikely secondary to trauma. Our sport is dangerous. If I talk to my work colleagues they think getting on any horse is dangerous at any time! Sadly, you ARE ignorant, wall full of degrees notwithstanding. Ignorant is not necessarily bad, hopefully when all is said and done and we have more answers you won't be so ignorant. These horse are bred to be sport horses-it's what they do. Let our upper level riders and leadership sort this out. And read Danny Warringtons article in the Chronicle.

Just to be precise, Quiet Man also died as a result of a rotational fall.

Edit: Them's as know better than me tell me that Quiet Man's fall was not rotational, so I stand corrected! :yes:

[Pixie Dust]

I don't know about what other's have seen but I have seen here in Ocala excessive use of the whip on obviously tired horses. They were not stopping dirty etc...they were TIRED...anyone who has been around horses long enough recognizes a exhausted horse whether they are riding it or watching it. I'm not saying ALL the eventers but enough of them did it so that I noticed it and it was not at just one event.


What did the TD say when you reported this?

[CoolMeadows]

Was The Quiet Man's fall not a rotational? I think it's short sighted to stand back and say let the organization and the UL riders sort it out amongst themselves. They're not doing a very good job of it so far and their lack of drastic action has resulted in AR groups and the public getting very upset and ready to take action. I am hoping that Tigger's full necropsy report is published and not just a snippet giving an overview. The initial report of two aortic ruptures has been modified and while one writer reported being told that the preliminary results showed a pulmonary bleed as well, that was never mentioned on USEA.

[CoolMeadows]

How, precisely, do you think we (as in the rank and file) are SUPPOSED to make it stop? We've talked and written to the powers that be, and they've heard us - but no one has the individual power to just STOP the sport. IT'S NOT A DICTATORSHIP.

We're dealing with reality here, not PETA fantasy-land.

Boycott, protest, whatever...

Your "reality" is just about to become a PETA fantasy-land and they'll happily do the protesting for you.

[nirvana002]

I'm sorry Erika. A few eventers here know me and I know that my thoughts are very unpopular. You know I have total respect for your riding and horsecare, but your sport is driving me to distraction! I really wish something drastic would be done now... like closing up shop at the upper levels until all frangible pins are in place, course design is thoroughly investigated and at least a preliminary study regarding the relationship of pulmonary bleeds and aortic ruptures to falls (are they truly the cause or are they the effect? I haven't seen a clear, professional report leaning one way or the other yet) is completed. Yes it would be costly, but continuing as is will cost everyone much more in the long run.



I do know about the proposals and the safety summit, but it's not enough. A lower level course voluntarily implemented frangible pins on the back of open oxers if I read correctly - how does having the back half of a fence collapse prevent a rotational fall? Kudos to them for making a start, but it's the ULs that have come apart at the seams and need to be doing this sort of thing asap. The proposal to suspend riders and horses after rotational falls seems like a too little, too late approach rather than addressing the prevention of the falls. The safety summit is still weeks away and may be more of the same talking in circles. Again, why can something not be done NOW? Sure, it would be costly to shut down the competition year temporarily but it would be a good PR move and would save lives in all likelihood.

So...would you have proposed us to not have Rolex or Jersey and call up China and tell them...sorry guys we aren't sending an American team this year. I am sure Philip and Becky and Karen and a whole lot of others would have apprecitated that for all of their years of hard work and dedication to their sport and animals. What is being done right now is one of the most member supportive, collabrative efforts I have ever seen in any sport to try to get us back on track. Maybe you are independantly wealthy and if you are, great for you, but the rest of us depend on the sport for our livelyhoods. Are we helping to fix it...have we written our suggestions, are we attending the meetings, yes we are. The sport is not going to be shut down, sorry to dissapoint you and your Animal Rights friends. Hopefully we will have an incredibly productive time in KY and changes that are needed can be implimented in a timely fashion. Oh and my Olympic horse was a slaughter save I got for $600. She retired with a home for life (with me, always)..I am pretty sure I have always taken great care of her and at age 23...she looks like 12.

Jill

[Twomanydawgs]

No one on here is agreeing with the animal rights activists...they are over the top and down right ridiculous not to mention scary. What I think Cool is saying is eventer's had better get their shite together before someone does it for them....and I'm betting the ranch they will not like the changes.

[CoolMeadows]

I know your horse's story and I watched her go around the Olympics. Sorry, but the money and hard work put in doesn't carry more value than a life. Continuing on while discussing is callous and yes, AR people will show up and put a stop to it. To think they won't is short sighted.

[RugBug]

Gasp..I may be defending my old friend coolie but why is it being a troll to opine regarding the best interest of a huge international co like Rolex to disassociate itself with a sport that is having ...well....growing pains in regard to safety?? I agree with Coolie. Doesn't look to good to have a full page spread in Vanity Fair with a comatose horse/rider wearing their Rolex..takes a licking and keeps on ticking...wait...that is a Timex....
Sorry to be so flip but she has a right to present her opinion with out being called out as a troll. I sincerely hope that the powers that be get the problem under control...

She has a right to express an opinion, but if she could do it without being inflammatory or without throwing the baby out with the bath water, then I think she would be better received. :shrug: Is CoolMeadows a troll? No. Is she presenting an opinion that anyone not of the same mindset is going to hear? No. I know my eye-rolly muscles are tired. In fact, I'm wondering who I cheered for all those years back when her mare was on a broodie lease and was treated so poorly. Is she really a reactionary crazy? Or is she actually capable of civil, useful discussion?

I'm of the opinion that ANY horse person that aligns themselves with an animal rights group such as PETA has a serious screw loose. If you think they will stop at outlawing eventing, you are sadly mistaken. They want to outlaw riding altogether. Aligning with them over racing or eventing issues is just shooting yourself in the foot.

Back on topic: Should Rolex pull sponsorship? Temporarily wouldn't be a bad PR move... and it is money that would talk. It would push TPTB to inact the short term, proven safety measures ASAP while researching long term issues.

[Kementari]

Boycott, protest, whatever...

Your "reality" is just about to become a PETA fantasy-land and they'll happily do the protesting for you.

Well, then, rest assured that neither I nor my horses will be competing at any UL events any time soon. :lol:

And I don't see the need for a "protest" when a freakin' PUBLIC FORUM has been scheduled, which is a MUCH more effective way of having one's views heard. (And though I will not be able to attend - staying employed being an important part of keeping my own horses well cared-for - I have no reason to believe that views I have expressed via email will be ignored.)

[Twomanydawgs]

WHERE is it posted that Cool is defending the AR'S??? I don't see where she said anywhere that she wanted eventing BANNED...but I do agree with you Bug about withdrawing support to maybe force changes...

[CoolMeadows]

WHERE is it posted that Cool is defending the AR'S??? I don't see where she said anywhere that she wanted eventing BANNED...but I do agree with you Bug about withdrawing support to maybe force changes...

Actually Two, in the "another horse dead" thread I did post that I'd support AR's protests at this point. No one else is actively and immediately doing anything to stop the deaths. The summit will be more talk and who knows how long it will take to implement whatever changes they eventually agree on, and it's possible and even likely given the current trend that there will be more horses dead by the time it rolls around anyway.

[CoolMeadows]

Whatever you say. Oh, by the way checked out your web site...maybe free lunging horses with nothing more than tape fencing strung by the standards isn't such a safe idea...wouldn't want one getting caught up in it, breaking a leg, now would we...could be interpreted as negligence.

It makes a safe and easy jump chute - breaks very easily. The most attractive thing in the world? No. Safe? Yes.

[whadyasay]

Well, it would help if you REALLY wanted to be constructive get your facts straight. Frodo is the only horse who died as a result of a rotational fall-one too many I agree, but not the " ...multiple horses dying in rotational flips." Tigger bled out from his aorta and we are awaiting the final autopsy report. IMO very unlikely secondary to trauma. Our sport is dangerous. If I talk to my work colleagues they think getting on any horse is dangerous at any time! Sadly, you ARE ignorant, wall full of degrees notwithstanding. Ignorant is not necessarily bad, hopefully when all is said and done and we have more answers you won't be so ignorant. These horse are bred to be sport horses-it's what they do. Let our upper level riders and leadership sort this out. And read Danny Warringtons article in the Chronicle.

Oh so the horse that crushed it's shoulder didn't flip? Or it just has to be heels over head. Give me a break, they are falling down and breaking to the point of not getting up..... BAD

[La Gringa]

Do you guys realize that the eventing forum is becoming like a freaking tabloid?

What's the next sensational headline going to be? David O'Connor abducted by aliens?? :eek::eek::eek:

Please people, relax. This is worse than watching re-runs of Married with Children... LOL :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[whadyasay]

Well, it would help if you REALLY wanted to be constructive get your facts straight. Frodo is the only horse who died as a result of a rotational fall-one too many I agree, but not the " ...multiple horses dying in rotational flips." Tigger bled out from his aorta and we are awaiting the final autopsy report. IMO very unlikely secondary to trauma. Our sport is dangerous. If I talk to my work colleagues they think getting on any horse is dangerous at any time! Sadly, you ARE ignorant, wall full of degrees notwithstanding. Ignorant is not necessarily bad, hopefully when all is said and done and we have more answers you won't be so ignorant. These horse are bred to be sport horses-it's what they do. Let our upper level riders and leadership sort this out. And read Danny Warringtons article in the Chronicle.

I did read the article and what did he say - YOU THE EVENT RIDERS - are the ones responsible for all of these horrific things. YOU YOU YOU... So my point is agreed upon and I have little to NO sympathy for YOU the rider, just the poor stupid horse that is so unfortunate to be owned by YOU!!!!

[whadyasay]

How, precisely, do you think we (as in the rank and file) are SUPPOSED to make it stop? We've talked and written to the powers that be, and they've heard us - but no one has the individual power to just STOP the sport. IT'S NOT A DICTATORSHIP.

We're dealing with reality here, not PETA fantasy-land.

UMMMMM pull up your horse (as suggested in the article written by Danny as I am sure he wished his wife did before dying). Stop running like mad and beating the horses past exhaustion. Take action for yourself - you are to blame!!!! :mad:

[Sannois]

To keep things totally straight, that would be ex-eventer. And still interested in piddling around with babies over the little stuff, but totally shocked by how mismanaged this whole situation has been.
With your nasty slamming remarks, Eventing doesnt need you.
If you dont like the sport stay out of it. Your certainly not helping solve any problems.
:no::eek:

[deltawave]

People, LET THE THREAD DIE and fall to the bottom of the page. Surest way to set it to rest among the gossip-mongers.

[J Swan]

I didn't mean they don't take good care of their horses as far as day to day husbandry. I meant that it's become clear that the riders and horses at the upper levels are no longer able to keep themselves safe - they have demonstrated that they can't take care of themselves or their horses in competition. Over and over and over, week after week. And since nothing's come of it but speculation and idle talk, you guys have fully invited outside agents to jump in with both feet and shut it down. The actions taken by USEA to this point aren't sufficient.

Well, I'm still trying to figure out if you are obtuse or ignorant.

Your entire line of thinking is just plain wrong. This sport has always been at the forefront when it comes to safety, conditioning, and research into horse and rider welfare.

You are asserting that no such mechanism exists? What are people supposed to do - wave a magic wand? Time and study are what is required to determine the cause.

Over and over and week after week - horses and riders in the US and abroad compete in various levels of this sport and emerge completely unscathed. In fact, most folks go their entire eventing careers without a horse dying or having a severe fall. Horses - many horses - at all levels of the sport are sound and competing into old age; bringing along novice riders.

It wasn't that long ago that riders had to add weight, wore no vests or helmets, jumps were very different than they are now - many things have changed.

But not one single change can be pinned as the cause of these incidents. Again - that takes time and intense study. No magic.

Many people have come up with some interesting points - and all of those merit discussion. All have value. And many of them aren't coming from eventers - but from outside the sport.

I don't even event anymore - but am appalled at posts such as yours that reek of schadenfreude. I've posted on this forum many times - and have yet to have any of my suggestions ridiculed by eventers.

I never thought I'd see the day a horseman would revel in the thought of an AR group attacking a horse event. You make me sick.

[StrawberryFields]

.....do you realize how stupid this is becoming? It was a simple question on whether or not Rolex was going to keep its support...not "let's see who can get the last word in regarding all eventers obvious ignorance and animal abuse". :rolleyes: c'mon guys

geez:no:

[CoolMeadows]

With your nasty slamming remarks, Eventing doesnt need you.
If you dont like the sport stay out of it. Your certainly not helping solve any problems.
:no::eek:

When eventing quits killing horses - that would be 5 dead in this country alone over the past 8 weeks, I will quiet down. Till then, it's every horse lover's business - eventing isn't immune to scrutiny and it deserves every bit it's getting right now. Sorry you don't like my viewpoint but it is what it is.

[wannabegifted]

I do agree that riders need to be held accountable. I think that the months of banning are a start.

I also agree that eventing needs to be put on halt, at least intermediate and above, maybe prelim (after red hills) for several months until we can sort out some of these issues.

I am a die hard eventer and have competed at the upper levels. I don't have a horse going now, but even if I did I would be willing to sit back and wait until things got safer.

Cummon you guys, are you really suggesting that Karen, David, and the like would rather be very unsafe in the long term then sacrifice some time and money in the short term to get things in order and more importantly SAFE? That’s silly. I know it's hard to see past tomorrow, but honestly, that’s like saying after numerous spontaneous car combustions in NASCAR the drivers going "nah, I'll risk my life so I can race tomorrow, of course that won’t happen to me" rather than do a little research and figure out what is going on. Again Think in the long term people...long term.


yes, accidents are going to happen...but let's keep them at that accidents not commonplace

HOWEVER, I would also like to offer this up.. we have heard a lot about eventing in the last few weeks, and yes... it is way more than normal but it is also in the spotlight. Lots of disciplines "kill horses," we just don't get wind of it because it isn't in mainstream media.


oh yeah, and since we are splitting hairs, I also free longe with flagging tape.... less intrusive so the horse feels more willing to go through the chute, they don't feel trapped if, God forbid, they stop, and I have seen it break when necessary, whereas way back when before I bought my mare she decided to take a extreme left out of the chute, crashed into the rail and split open her leg. Safer????

[Kementari]

UMMMMM pull up your horse (as suggested in the article written by Danny as I am sure he wished his wife did before dying). Stop running like mad and beating the horses past exhaustion. Take action for yourself - you are to blame!!!! :mad:

Um...I have never ridden at the upper levels, and probably never will. As for my exhausted horses, well, I'm pretty sure that if you come off of XC and neither you nor the horse are even breathing very hard, that doesn't count as exhaustion. But, hey, since you've obviously seen me compete, you probably know better. :rolleyes:

[Sannois]

Guess what has been happening is just ducky with Sanni...the only one's getting hysterical are the poor horses and well they should be...getting hysterical is PETA's job...be afraid when that happens...very afraid.
Accidents are not just ducky. Problems in the upper levels do exist.
But I fail to see how spouting on a BB is changing them.
Sure everyone has the freedom to say as they choose.
But for the last few months there have been thread after thread about this.
All kinds of suggestions good and bad, which is fine, but there seems to be an awful lot of negative posts, condemming the sport.
Counterproductive to me.

[RugBug]

We (outsiders and NOT eventers) are only reacting to what is truth, multiple horses dying in rotational flips due to people trying to make it to the Olympics.

Please don't presume to speak for me. I am an "outsider", I support eventing. I, however, support VERY little of what you...with your wall full of papers...are trying to say.

[whadyasay]

Please don't presume to speak for me. I am an "outsider", I support eventing. I, however, support VERY little of what you with your wall full of papers is trying to say.

:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

[Sannois]

When eventing quits killing horses - that would be 5 dead in this country alone over the past 8 weeks, I will quiet down. Till then, it's every horse lover's business - eventing isn't immune to scrutiny and it deserves every bit it's getting right now. Sorry you don't like my viewpoint but it is what it is.
brush stroke Eventings killing horses?
Annually even a bad year is nothing compared to the starvation and abuse and neglect that occurs with the everyday horse.
Hunters die, jumpers die, All equine sports have deaths all the time.
Sorry I just dont see how your approach is helping the sport.
:no:

[Kementari]

Please don't presume to speak for me. I am an "outsider", I support eventing. I, however, support VERY little of what you...with your wall full of papers...are trying to say.

Thank you. :) (And J Swan, too!)

[DizzyMagic]

I know your horse's story and I watched her go around the Olympics. Sorry, but the money and hard work put in doesn't carry more value than a life. Continuing on while discussing is callous and yes, AR people will show up and put a stop to it. To think they won't is short sighted.

I've got some thoughts on your recent posts, and I wanted to offer them, both to you and to the rest of the community...

1) You seem absolutely heart-wrenched over the recent deaths of event horses. There have been so many in such a short time, and as you said in another post, it's horrifying to be losing so many wonderful horses. This post on another thread was so angry, but I could also see so much pain in it:


I'm sofa king disgusted by this sport and am furious. Probably not the most helpful reaction, but really, I am so angry I want to scream. Please shut it down until you guys get it sorted out. I don't care that they're dying "doing what they love". I don't dispute that, a great horse in any discipline is going to love what they do and is a joy to ride. That doesn't make them dying for your sport any more acceptable. I wish you'd all close it up for a few months and pull yourselves together. This insane trucking along as though all is well with some ridiculous proposed rules thrown out there as band aids isn't working. If you keep going and it happens again... well can you imagine what will happen? Your sport will be shut down and not from the inside and certainly not temporarily. I'm starting to wish the AR people would get on it with already as I am sick and tired of watching XC, stupidity and irresponsibility kill wonderful horse after wonderful horse.

2) Your posts recently are so antagonistic as to be useless. They make other people defensive and angry, and anything valuable you might have to offer is washed away in the negativity.

3) You are a fellow horseperson and sometimes eventer - if this is your reaction, our sport should take some notice. You're not some half-baked media jerk who only wants to get people worked up and sell papers (or gain readership). You actually care about horses and equestrian sport.

4) I have a hard time accepting your defense about Eight Belles in the same breath that you say "eventing killed another horse." Whether or not a jockey or anyone was particularly responsible for that filly's demise, the fact remains that a wonderful horse died running her heart out - and you know, and I know, and the racing industry itself knows that running horses so very young puts them at risk for breaking down. I'm not suggesting that one group's trouble justifies another - I just don't understand your view on the two.

5) I'm deeply offended that you would minimize Jill's accomplishment with a throwaway horse! That horse was headed for a *plate* and instead became both a valuable sporthorse and a beloved friend. Do you know how often that happens in eventing? Most don't end up in the olympics, but I wonder how many entries on any given eventing weekend are "racetrack rejects" - also known as "toppers" by the killer buyers at auctions because they bring top dollar at the slaughterhouse.

6) Halt eventing until it's sorted out? I'm not sure it's feasible, and I'm less sure that it would improve anything. Tell me why you think it would help? How do you stop, and how do you start it back up? And what do you learn while the sport is at a standstill? In other words, justify this, explain why you think it's good, why it would work, why it's beneficial in the short run and in the long run both for Eventing, and for equestrian sports in general.

Lastly, I want to suggest something and not have it come off snarky, because that's not what I mean... It strikes me that maybe you're so mad, so heartsick, so frustrated, and maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to take a break for a day or two. Then come back and say what you're saying in a way that people can hear it - and get involved with the organization and say it to them too.

Emily

[La Gringa]

Anybody want some Chocolate? Milk Chocolate Dove bars... mmmmm..

Hot fudge sundae smothered in chocolate..

Chocolate sprinkles, chocolate kisses, chocolate milk...:winkgrin:

[lstevenson]

Gasp..I may be defending my old friend coolie but why is it being a troll to opine regarding the best interest of a huge international co like Rolex to disassociate itself with a sport that is having ...well....growing pains in regard to safety??


Um, THIS is why she is a troll.


I got sick and tired of months of spinning circles with absolutely no result, so yes - I will cheer the AR groups on to shut down eventing since it's more than apparent that eventers aren't capable of taking care of themselves or their animals at all.


Because of a recent rash of very different issues, some (like pulmonary hemmorage) very possibley out of our control, someone is ignorant enough to say things like this, they are going to get called a troll. When there is a serious effort being made to try to figure out what is going on, and what should be changed. It's not like there is an obvious problem that is contributing to all of these deaths, and we just don't care!

And NONE of the horses that have died this year have been "exhausted" on course, so the people whining about pressing exhausted horses need to find something else to whine about.

[La Gringa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus

Charlieeeeeeee we're on a bridge...............

Oh, when you're down and looking for some cheering up,
Then just head right on up to the candy mountain cave.
When you get inside you'll find yourself a cheery land,
Such a happy and joyful and perky merryland.
They've got lollypops and gummy drop and happy things,
Oh so many things that will brighten up your day.
It's impossible to wear a frown in Candy Town,
It's the mecca of love the candy cave.

They've got jelly beans, and coconuts with little hats,
Candy wraps, choco bats, it's a wonderland of sweets.
Ride the candy train to town and hear the candy band,
Candy bells, it's a treat as they march across the land.
Cheery ribbons stream across the sky into the ground,
Turn around, it astounds, it's the dancing candy tree.
In the candy cave imagination runs so free,
So now Charlie please will you go into the cave.


C'mon guys lets go to the candy cave!!!!

[indigoecho]

brush stroke Eventings killing horses?
Annually even a bad year is nothing compared to the starvation and abuse and neglect that occurs with the everyday horse.
Hunters die, jumpers die, All equine sports have deaths all the time.
Sorry I just dont see how your approach is helping the sport.
:no:

Just because horses die in other ways doesn't justify the eventing deaths. I understand your frustration with the negativity, but arguments like this don't help the situation either. I'm new here, I'll admit it. I am also a lower level eventer and lifelong horse lover and owner. I scrimped and saved to go to Rolex this year and I watched Frodo and Laine fall. I've been coming on this BB to try to make sense of what I saw and the varied reactions I observed to the deaths at Rolex. It really makes me not want to support the sport anymore when people justify these horses' deaths with "they died doing what they loved" and "horses die in their pastures all the time" and "it's a dangerous sport". All of those things are true, but that doesn't make them good. Horses do die all the time for senseless reasons outside of eventing, and I am just as upset about that, as any horse or animal lover would be. I might not be an insider here, but I have an opinion that I can make known to horse people and non-horse people alike. I went to Rolex with 8 other people, all devoted horse owners and participants in equestrian sports. They all came away from the experience as disallusioned as I was. The only reason I am here and not completely turning away from the sport is that I feel that there is momentum to make positive changes for the sport and I really, really hope that happens.

[CoolMeadows]

I've got some thoughts on your recent posts, and I wanted to offer them, both to you and to the rest of the community...

1) You seem absolutely heart-wrenched over the recent deaths of event horses. There have been so many in such a short time, and as you said in another post, it's horrifying to be losing so many wonderful horses. This post on another thread was so angry, but I could also see so much pain in it:



2) Your posts recently are so antagonistic as to be useless. They make other people defensive and angry, and anything valuable you might have to offer is washed away in the negativity.

3) You are a fellow horseperson and sometimes eventer - if this is your reaction, our sport should take some notice. You're not some half-baked media jerk who only wants to get people worked up and sell papers (or gain readership). You actually care about horses and equestrian sport.

4) I have a hard time accepting your defense about Eight Belles in the same breath that you say "eventing killed another horse." Whether or not a jockey or anyone was particularly responsible for that filly's demise, the fact remains that a wonderful horse died running her heart out - and you know, and I know, and the racing industry itself knows that running horses so very young puts them at risk for breaking down. I'm not suggesting that one group's trouble justifies another - I just don't understand your view on the two.

5) I'm deeply offended that you would minimize Jill's accomplishment with a throwaway horse! That horse was headed for a *plate* and instead became both a valuable sporthorse and a beloved friend. Do you know how often that happens in eventing? Most don't end up in the olympics, but I wonder how many entries on any given eventing weekend are "racetrack rejects" - also known as "toppers" by the killer buyers at auctions because they bring top dollar at the slaughterhouse.

6) Halt eventing until it's sorted out? I'm not sure it's feasible, and I'm less sure that it would improve anything. Tell me why you think it would help? How do you stop, and how do you start it back up? And what do you learn while the sport is at a standstill? In other words, justify this, explain why you think it's good, why it would work, why it's beneficial in the short run and in the long run both for Eventing, and for equestrian sports in general.

Lastly, I want to suggest something and not have it come off snarky, because that's not what I mean... It strikes me that maybe you're so mad, so heartsick, so frustrated, and maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to take a break for a day or two. Then come back and say what you're saying in a way that people can hear it - and get involved with the organization and say it to them too.

Emily

Hey Emily as far as Eight Belles - I defended her jockey as she was clearly not in distress during the race and broke down suddenly in the matter of a stride. My full post wasn't quoted so it cut out the bit where I stated I support major changes in racing.

I absolutely didn't intend to minimize Jill and Nirvana's accomplishments. I was a big fan during Nirvana's career and as a OTTb lover, am always thrilled to see a throwaway come back as a superstar.


I'd like to see the ULs of eventing take a break while the powers that be decide what changes will be put in place. As it is, five horses have died on XC at the (mostly) upper levels during the past eight weeks. That's more than enough for something as drastic as putting a temporary hold on things while answers are sought. I don't understand why it needs to continue when there's a clear indication that something's (or many somethings are) too much for horses and riders to handle right now. I'm not saying shut it down forever, outlaw it - just a temporary hold so we don't keep losing horses while people talk. It's sickening. Arguing about the cost of it all and how upsetting it would be to miss planned events doesn't outweigh the risks. To me, anyway.

Sorry about the antagonistic posts, the tone was a mistake. It just seems that everyone's spinning circles talking about a safety summit weeks away while more horses die.

[sfir]

Why don't you wander over to the breeding forum? Have you seen all the death and carnage over there? Mares dead, foals dying etc from all of those breeders putting their horses in harm's way and risking their lives for their own pleasure and satisfaction. It is true that FAR more horses die in breeding than they do in any of the equine sports. Why are you not rallying over there if animal welfare is of your top concern?
While our sport searches rationally for improvements and changes that will assist in increasing safety for both horse and rider there will always be irrational people looking to stir up trouble and hinder the process.
and by the way - you cannot make any sport safer than life. Every animal is mortal. Until that changes there will be no way to assure that any horse will not die at a sporting event because they are just as often dying from the same and/ or different causes at NON SPORTING events.

Note - please note that I AM NOT IN any way saying that I personally think breeding, eventing, racing etc are irresponsible endeavors by horse owners. I am just pointing out the ludicrousy of some of the statements made on here. I apologize in advance if any of these trolls head over to the breeding forum and do start stirring up trouble there.

Oh yeah - and what Emily said too!
Ruthie

[RAyers]

6) Halt eventing until it's sorted out? I'm not sure it's feasible, and I'm less sure that it would improve anything. Tell me why you think it would help? How do you stop, and how do you start it back up? And what do you learn while the sport is at a standstill? In other words, justify this, explain why you think it's good, why it would work, why it's beneficial in the short run and in the long run both for Eventing, and for equestrian sports in general.




I can easily answer that question. (Does not mean I agree with everything else).

When the Shuttle belw up NASA ceased operations until a thorough examination of not just the technology but the CULTURE could be done. When aircraft crash they are grounded (see the recent issues with the FAA and the airlines) until causes and fixes can be sorted out. This is STANDARD procedure in any INDUSTRY (especially in industries where people are put at risk) and ACADEMIA (including K-12 and higher education). Why not sports?

If the sport was at a "stand still," as you put it, all of the officials, vets, scientists could actually step away from running competitions and collect the requisite data to put together and understanding of what is happening.

It would be beneficial in the short and long run because we could better define the questions needed to be asked with concern to safety and we could take the time to institute RATIONAL, LOGICAL fixes without the pressure to get something in place before the next major competition.

Reed

[RugBug]

Why don't you wander over to the breeding forum? Have you seen all the death and carnage over there? Mares dead, foals dying etc from all of those breeders putting their horses in harm's way and risking their lives for their own pleasure and satisfaction.

So VERY, VERY true.

[chunky munky]

THANK GOD!!!! Finally a rational post. Listen to this, or you will lose your sport as you know it. I tried to post this right after Rolex and you all jumped down my throught. Reed is right. Show that you are taking this seriously. Keep running your horse trials, but no x-country until you have something aggressively positive to show for your discussion and meetings.:yes:
Breeding is a poor example. It is not a sport that relies on major sponsorship or is aired for millions on weekend sports television. Although most activist groups( including ASPCA) want to mandate spay and neuter for all dogs and cats, so perhaps horses will be next. So you are grasping at straws with that example.

[whadyasay]

Why don't you wander over to the breeding forum? Have you seen all the death and carnage over there? Mares dead, foals dying etc from all of those breeders putting their horses in harm's way and risking their lives for their own pleasure and satisfaction. It is true that FAR more horses die in breeding than they do in any of the equine sports. Why are you not rallying over there if animal welfare is of your top concern?
While our sport searches rationally for improvements and changes that will assist in increasing safety for both horse and rider there will always be irrational people looking to stir up trouble and hinder the process.
and by the way - you cannot make any sport safer than life. Every animal is mortal. Until that changes there will be no way to assure that any horse will not die at a sporting event because they are just as often dying from the same and/ or different causes at NON SPORTING events.

Note - please note that I AM NOT IN any way saying that I personally think breeding, eventing, racing etc are irresponsible endeavors by horse owners. I am just pointing out the ludicrousy of some of the statements made on here. I apologize in advance if any of these trolls head over to the breeding forum and do start stirring up trouble there.

Oh yeah - and what Emily said too!
Ruthie

The only difference is that breeding, although the insemination is done by humans (sometime artificially), is less a result of human intervention - the deaths are more - dare I say - God's doing. It isn't that these young foals are getting caught up on jumps that are too large for them or being asked to perform at a level above their capabilities, they are either born dead or die within days of being born or the mare dies during childbirth. That is a little more of nature taking its course. It seems that anyone who doesn't want to hear or face the negative attention that eventing has been getting comes up with a million reasons why people should turn a blind eye to the recent happenings. Something is not right and as it has been said above, I am sure the ULRs are not looking to go out and maim themselves or their horses but somehow this is becoming a common occurance no matter what they are initially setting out to do.... But of course that is just an observation from a moron because I choose to say that something isn't right.

[RugBug]

I can easily answer that question. (Does not mean I agree with everything else).

When the Shuttle belw up NASA ceased operations until a thorough examination of not just the technology but the CULTURE could be done. When aircraft crash they are grounded (see the recent issues with the FAA and the airlines) until causes and fixes can be sorted out. This is STANDARD procedure in any INDUSTRY (especially in industries where people are put at risk) and ACADEMIA (including K-12 and higher education). Why not sports?

If the sport was at a "stand still," as you put it, all of the officials, vets, scientists could actually step away from running competitions and collect the requisite data to put together and understanding of what is happening.

It would be beneficial in the short and long run because we could better define the questions needed to be asked with concern to safety and we could take the time to institute RATIONAL, LOGICAL fixes without the pressure to get something in place before the next major competition.

Reed

Reed,

While I agree that a temporary halt MAY give some time to focus on the problems at hand, has that time in other industries really solved the problems? (I'm wracking my brain trying to think of how Academia is shut down. Are you referencing school shootings? Have those ceased?)

IMO, a temporary shut down would only be an offering to the general public so they can see that issues are being addressed. Maybe it's needed for that reason alone...

You have stated on other threads that this isn't a quick fix problem. There are so very many reasons why these falls have occured and the answer isn't a few months in the making, It's years. There are some short term answers that I'm sure will be enacted, but the real truth is years in the distance.

[sfir]

Just because you ASSUME it is happening as a result of this sport when in fact it happens just as often with horses that are not competing in sport?
I am in complete agreement that some changes need to be put in place to make the sport as safe as possible. My point is you cannot make any interaction with a mortal animal 100% safe because at some point every animal is going to die. I have yet to see any proof that these horses that have died recently from conditions that exist in animals outside of this sport were a direct result of over exertion at these events. One died at the BEGINNING of the course, one died in the middle and one near the end. You ASSUME it is because there have been several deaths within a short time span that it is sport related but is it not POSSIBLE that it may not be as result of this sport? Maybe these horses (like others including non event horses) would go home and have the same thing happen when they are turned out in a field. It happens frequently but you do not hear of those because they do not occur at a high profile event but they DO occur.
Ofcourse this excludes the accidents that have been accused of being caused by 'rider error' but that is another subject....

Ruthie

[RAyers]

Reed,

While I agree that a temporary halt MAY give some time to focus on the problems at hand, has that time in other industries really solved the problems? (I'm wracking my brain trying to think of how Academia is shut down. Are you referencing school shootings? Have those ceased?)

IMO, a temporary shut down would only be an offering to the general public so they can see that issues are being addressed. Maybe it's needed for that reason alone...

You have stated on other threads that this isn't a quick fix problem. There are so very many reasons why these falls have occured and the answer isn't a few months in the making, It's years. There are some short term answers that I'm sure will be enacted, but the real truth is years in the distance.



Good points. Sometimes public perception is the most important reason.

As for other reasons for shut downs, it depends. In academia, mostly it is in the laboratory spaces so liberal arts tend not to see these things. For instance we had 2 major accidents in the welding cell in the materials science building. It was shut down, along with any associated activities until investigations were complete. I shut my own lab down (before EH&S did) after a couple of explosions and fires. (I work with highly explosive/flammable systems to make bone tissue scaffolds). While it all happened in protected spaces and nobody was ever hurt, I saw a trend that was not going in the right direction so I called a halt until I could get things worked out. Another example is that construction sites are shut down if accidents occur.

Safety is an ongoing PROCESS. It is NEVER finished. However sometimes people need to step back and take a breath and re-group. Safety reviews only seek to prevent the accidents that HAVE happened. They can never prevent EVERY accident nor can they anticipate future accidents.

No halt has to be long. It just has to be long enough to get the data assembled to answer questions such as sfir suggests. That means it could be a week or two or longer, depending. At the same time an internal review of the culture of safety at the USEF/USEA could happen. And, again, it gives people a chance to take a breath.

Here is my horse analogy, when you have a course that is falling apart during schooling, do you simply keep running at fences ro do you stop, take a breath, clear your mind and re-group?

I will reitterate, I belive this sport can be made safer without changing the basic premise/ideas of this sport.

Reed

[Kementari]

THANK GOD!!!! Finally a rational post. Listen to this, or you will lose your sport as you know it. I tried to post this right after Rolex and you all jumped down my throught. Reed is right. Show that you are taking this seriously. Keep running your horse trials, but no x-country until you have something aggressively positive to show for your discussion and meetings.:yes:

We've been discussing JUST THIS THING since RIGHT AFTER ROLEX (actually, the discussion began while the competition was still running).

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=145086

Of course, you didn't contribute to that thread because it was a reasonable, intelligent discussion of the proposition, rather than a mud-slinging insult-fest.


Breeding is a poor example. It is not a sport that relies on major sponsorship or is aired for millions on weekend sports television.

Well, it's good to know that animals dying only matters if it brings in lots of money and happens on TV. :sigh:

[chunky munky]

No K, I stopped posting because you were all over me regarding a moratorium. I agree and have always taken that stand since Rolex. I would like to see your sport survive in some form and feel not enough is being done to insure that outcome. I still think you are dragging your feet as a group and it will hurt your public perception in the long run.
When Challenger exploded, NASA took a break, analyzed the problems (Seals in this case among other things) redesigned and corrected the problems and was very cautious with its restart. Perhaps this is a model that should be taken into consideration. And yes, public perception is a major consideration if you want to see the survival of your sport.
I will choose not to comment on your agressive reactionary post regarding breeding.

[nirvana002]

The only difference is that breeding, although the insemination is done by humans (sometime artificially), is less a result of human intervention - the deaths are more - dare I say - God's doing. It isn't that these young foals are getting caught up on jumps that are too large for them or being asked to perform at a level above their capabilities, they are either born dead or die within days of being born or the mare dies during childbirth. That is a little more of nature taking its course. It seems that anyone who doesn't want to hear or face the negative attention that eventing has been getting comes up with a million reasons why people should turn a blind eye to the recent happenings. Something is not right and as it has been said above, I am sure the ULRs are not looking to go out and maim themselves or their horses but somehow this is becoming a common occurance no matter what they are initially setting out to do.... But of course that is just an observation from a moron because I choose to say that something isn't right.

admitting you're a moron is a step in the right direction

[chunky munky]

admitting you're a moron is a step in the right direction

What is wrong with you people?? Let this person have an opinion without all the histrionic defensive rhetoric!:no:

[RugBug]

As for other reasons for shut downs, it depends. In academia, mostly it is in the laboratory spaces so liberal arts tend not to see these things. For instance we had 2 major accidents in the welding cell in the materials science building. It was shut down, along with any associated activities until investigations were complete. I shut my own lab down (before EH&S did) after a couple of explosions and fires. (I work with highly explosive/flammable systems to make bone tissue scaffolds). While it all happened in protected spaces and nobody was ever hurt, I saw a trend that was not going in the right direction so I called a halt until I could get things worked out. Another example is that construction sites are shut down if accidents occur.

Ah...I was trying to apply this to k-12 which you had parenthetically added and was having difficulty. :D


Safety is an ongoing PROCESS. It is NEVER finished. However sometimes people need to step back and take a breath and re-group. Safety reviews only seek to prevent the accidents that HAVE happened. They can never prevent EVERY accident nor can they anticipate future accidents.

I agree. The only way to stop all accidents in eventing is to stop the sport. The problem in this situation is that while there has been a spate of accidents, there isn't a clear indicator that they share commonalities. Was Tigger's fall rotational? Was it caused by a cardio-pulmonary event? Was that caused by a tired horse? Should the rider have known? Was Frodo's fall caused by a fresh horse or was it purely rider error? Was it lack of experience of the rider? Was it fence design and placement? Was it the short format and lack of roads and track and steeplechase? Was Darren's fall lack of experience of the horse? How do you quantify those things in order to study them? So many possibilities and there may be a thread of cause that ties them all together...that would make this process MUCH easier...but it really seems like there are A LOT of variables and a slew of possible answers, making this a very tough process.

Here is my horse analogy, when you have a course that is falling apart during schooling, do you simply keep running at fences ro do you stop, take a breath, clear your mind and re-group?

I know you know that is an over-simplified analogy....but I'll give you credit that it makes you think. :winkgrin: If re-grouping was all that was needed (Canter is weak, I'm picking, I'm not balancing my horse in the turn) in this case...a break would be great and eventing would be fine... But the questions that need to be asked are complicated and go to the very core. To continue the analogy, the questions are: Am I skilled enough to even ride this horse over this jump? Is he talented enough? Is this jump design safe? How can it be made safer? Am I asking to much of him and myself? Is he conditioned properly? Is he health enough? Could my supplements be causing systemic weaknesses? etc. That IS NOT the stuff of 're-grouping.' That is the stuff of long-term analysis.

[AllyCat]

I didn't mean they don't take good care of their horses as far as day to day husbandry. I meant that it's become clear that the riders and horses at the upper levels are no longer able to keep themselves safe - they have demonstrated that they can't take care of themselves or their horses in competition. Over and over and over, week after week. And since nothing's come of it but speculation and idle talk, you guys have fully invited outside agents to jump in with both feet and shut it down. The actions taken by USEA to this point aren't sufficient.

Getting on the back of a 1200 lb animal is NOT safe.

Have you been posting this kind of stuff on other boards about horse racing? What did you have to say about the H/J world when some of their members were killing horses for insurance money? How about horses going to slaughter? What have you done to improve their plights?

We all want this to end right here and now, but there is no clear answer and "shutting down eventing" isn't gonna do it either.

We take good care of our horses and have not sat idly-by as you state. Many of us have written, emailed, and called the powers that be to investigate this and fix it. I don't remember anyone inviting you or anyone else to "jump in with both feet and shut it down". However, I am inviting you to offer a solution since you seem think we and the USEA have "done nothing". Really.




I'm waiting.

[Kementari]

No K, I stopped posting because you were all over me regarding a moratorium. I agree and have always taken that stand since Rolex. I would like to see your sport survive in some form and feel not enough is being done to insure that outcome. I still think you are dragging your feet as a group and it will hurt your public perception in the long run.
When Challenger exploded, NASA took a break, analyzed the problems (Seals in this case among other things) redesigned and corrected the problems and was very cautious with its restart. Perhaps this is a model that should be taken into consideration. And yes, public perception is a major consideration if you want to see the survival of your sport.
I will choose not to comment on your agressive reactionary post regarding breeding.

Funny - you managed to post on all sorts of OTHER threads during the five days that thread was very active.

But then, it's far more fun to call people "idiots" than to participate in the REASONED discussions.

[eventamy]

This is a gross generalization that I personally find incredibly offensive. I am a lower level eventer, and my horses are happy, healthy, and very well-prepared anytime we set foot on the trailer to compete. You won't find a discipline that takes better care of their horses (and it is usually the rider wrapping legs, walking their horse, etc....not a groom). Just because the ULs have been plagued by recent tragedies doesn't mean the individuals in the sport do not take care of their animals. Express your opinion but keep the inflammatory, offensive statements to yourself.

AGREED! Well said!

[RAyers]

Rug Bug,

Actually K-12 has the same sort of practices for a variety of issues not related to shootings (e.g. bus accidents, shop classes, teacher issues).

Sometimes the more complex the problem the more reason to stop. The complexity is the reason I push for epidemiologists and stasticians to be involved. They have the tools to search and highlight commonalities or differences. We need time to gaterh rider data, horse data, vet data, jump data etc. Then we can sort through that to look for patterns. Even things that do not appear to be quantifiable can be quantified statistically (parametric/non-parametric variables). Sometimes NOT stopping is like trying to repair a car on the highway at 70 mph.

Remember the Shuttle has over 6,000,000 moving parts and it took time to figure out what when wrong both times and both times were the non-moving parts.

Your last point must go towards the changing of the culture. For example, I want my students to always wear their personal protection equipment when conducting reactions. I could tell them or I can make sure I wear all of my PPE everytime I go in the lab. I establish a CULTURE of safety. This is where ULRs/BNRs/BNTs have got to get off of their butts and get involved. They need to pull up or to not even go and make sure their students/public knows exactly why. They are the ones to establish RIDER RESPONSIBILITY because they are the ones TEACHING it. They can not simply say it is/was the rider's responsibility and wash their hands of the issue.


Reed


Ah...I was trying to apply this to k-12 which you had parenthetically added and was having difficulty. :D



I agree. The only way to stop all accidents in eventing is to stop the sport. The problem in this situation is that while there has been a spate of accidents, there isn't a clear indicator that they share commonalities. Was Tigger's fall rotational? Was it caused by a cardio-pulmonary event? Was that caused by a tired horse? Should the rider have known? Was Frodo's fall caused by a fresh horse or was it purely rider error? Was it lack of experience of the rider? Was it fence design and placement? Was it the short format and lack of roads and track and steeplechase? Was Darren's fall lack of experience of the horse? How do you quantify those things in order to study them? So many possibilities and there may be a thread of cause that ties them all together...that would make this process MUCH easier...but it really seems like there are A LOT of variables and a slew of possible answers, making this a very tough process.



I know you know that is an over-simplified analogy....but I'll give you credit that it makes you think. :winkgrin: If re-grouping was all that was needed (Canter is weak, I'm picking, I'm not balancing my horse in the turn) in this case...a break would be great and eventing would be fine... But the questions that need to be asked are complicated and go to the very core. To continue the analogy, the questions are: Am I skilled enough to even ride this horse over this jump? Is he talented enough? Is this jump design safe? How can it be made safer? Am I asking to much of him and myself? Is he conditioned properly? Is he health enough? Could my supplements be causing systemic weaknesses? etc. That IS NOT the stuff of 're-grouping.' That is the stuff of long-term analysis.

[chunky munky]

But then, it's far more fun to call people "idiots" than to participate in the REASONED discussions.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps we should stick to ideas rather than personal attacks? If you have a problem with me, please feel free to PM. Because right now your discussion does not fall in the category of REASONED.;) In fact forget about anything I have ever said and listen to RAyers. He is trying to tell it like it is.

[whadyasay]

What is wrong with you people?? Let this person have an opinion without all the histrionic defensive rhetoric!:no:

Thanks for sticking up for me but no need. I could care less what this board thinks, you (the eventers) are the ones single handedly killing your horses and your sport. Do what you want, say what you will, hopefully it makes you feel better, however, the facts are the facts. If you notice I have never called anyone a name for posting their opinon (whether I agree or not) nor tried to attack their intelligence. If you need to be defensive that is your own problem, not mine. :cool:

[wannabegifted]

Thanks for sticking up for me but no need. I could care less what this board thinks, you (the eventers) are the ones single handedly killing your horses and your sport. Do what you want, say what you will, hopefully it makes you feel better, however, the facts are the facts. If you notice I have never called anyone a name for posting their opinon (whether I agree or not) nor tried to attack their intelligence. If you need to be defensive that is your own problem, not mine. :cool:



no, no name calling... but accusatory statements are just as bad, if not worse.

whoops, sorry... we're all awful awful people, theives, rapists, murderers and horse killers now too. sorry, I forgot

[Mudroom]

CoolMeadows - It's pretty darn obvious that you don't care for any horse sports at all. In which case, you really don't have a reason to visit this BB now, do you.

Actually, this BB has a really neat feature, called the ignore list. You go to the User CP, add their name and you need not be troubled by the trolls again!

[subk]

I could care less what this board thinks, you (the eventers) are the ones single handedly killing your horses and your sport. Do what you want, say what you will, hopefully it makes you feel better, however, the facts are the facts.
"The fact" is that you can't find one single credible equine vet who will tell you that the pulmonary events that have resulted in several of the equine deaths are either preventable or predictable. "The fact" is that eventing has this very day a cardiologist studying the viability of using medical equipment currently only in human trials to study this equine phenomenon. "The fact" is that this person is a regular poster on this board. "The fact" is that you and your buddy CoolM have spewed your vile crap on her and every other person here who is working hard to be a part of the solution. Hope you're proud of yourselves.

It's a good thing that you could care less what folks on this board think of you.

[Invested1]

"The fact" is

You forgot "the fact is that the expression is I *couldn't* care less." :winkgrin:

[Stellaspeed]

You have a PM

[Twomanydawgs]

Danny Warrington states on a Horsemen's Forum..."If you haven't experienced horses dying under you, or crashing at the top level, then you can't have a opinion"...WTF??...it's like a badge of honor for these people to to experience the above??? He also stated that his wife died because of her bad judgement...riders should be able to make some mistakes on course without it causing such horrific consequences. Why can't you make some changes to the obstacles, length of course, etc and let the dressage and stadium jumping be the deciding factors in who wins???

[RugBug]

Why can't you make some changes to the obstacles, length of course, etc and let the dressage and stadium jumping be the deciding factors in who wins???

With the advent of the short format, dressage is often the deciding factor in who wins.

[sfir]

Did you read the whole article?
His point was if you have not experienced those things you should not be judging what the riders should or should not have been doing as it was happening because you have no idea how or what they felt and when. I agree 100% with this.
The year I rode at the Medal finals the rider before me had a fully rotational fall on course. Rider was injured and I am not sure whether the horse was or not. This was one of the top jr riders in the country, in an arena over a 3'6" course with a very experienced horse.
A few months ago a showjumper was euthanized after a fall on course. The horse and rider were very experienced.
While we eventers can continue to strive to make our sport as safe as possible (and we absolutely should!), there is no way to prevent accidents from happening in any equine sport - even on a recreational level. Changing the sport entirely from what it is is the wrong direction to go. There is no information to prove that that will make our sport any safer.
We need well thought out strategic planning and data analysis.
Ruthie

[CoolMeadows]

Getting on the back of a 1200 lb animal is NOT safe.

Have you been posting this kind of stuff on other boards about horse racing? What did you have to say about the H/J world when some of their members were killing horses for insurance money? How about horses going to slaughter? What have you done to improve their plights?

We all want this to end right here and now, but there is no clear answer and "shutting down eventing" isn't gonna do it either.

We take good care of our horses and have not sat idly-by as you state. Many of us have written, emailed, and called the powers that be to investigate this and fix it. I don't remember anyone inviting you or anyone else to "jump in with both feet and shut it down". However, I am inviting you to offer a solution since you seem think we and the USEA have "done nothing". Really.




I'm waiting.

Yes, I posted on Racing regarding PETA's suggestions to make changes to the industry. Some of them really were excellent suggestions, some not so much. I've sent emails supporting a hearing and a call for change.

The insurance killings? By the time I knew about it, the law was already on it. I've made certain to avoid all players in that game and to inform people who didn't know since then. One of those people I would have considered a friend before discovering their involvement. I quit showing altogether for a long time.

As far as slaughter, I've done what I can and have had plenty of rescues and fosters. I've also restarted many Tbs off the track for (hopefully!) productive new careers.

I offered my suggestion to shut down the ULs temporarily as continuing as it is, even with a safety summit scheduled, will invite AR to jump in to stop it for you. I am keeping my fingers crossed that no more horses die in the next few weeks as with 5 gone in 8 weeks, UL eventing is hanging onto a cliff edge by a fingernail.

I hope that answers your questions.

[LLDM]

Rayers - I think it is too late for this thread. You have some excellent ideas and you always provide food for thought.

But this thread, I think, is beyond hope. There have been several valiant attempts to save it - but too many here have gone over to the over-reactive - tit-for-tat crap and are into the ridiculous, repetitive argument phase.

I fear only lots of chocolate, and (possibly) a ground invasion of lawn gnomes could save it now.

It's too bad too - because I think these people care passionately about horses and all frustrated and upset.

SCFarm

[RAyers]

Rayers - I think it is too late for this thread. You have some excellent ideas and you always provide food for thought.


Rug Bug and I are having a nice conversation.

Reed

[LLDM]

Rug Bug and I are having a nice conversation.

Reed

By golly you're right! I shall have to find the ignore button (at least temporarily) and maybe make sense of it! (I'm slow and easily distracted and confused).

SCFarm

[Sannois]

Yes, I posted on Racing regarding PETA's suggestions to make changes to the industry. Some of them really were excellent suggestions, some not so much. I've sent emails supporting a hearing and a call for change.

The insurance killings? By the time I knew about it, the law was already on it. I've made certain to avoid all players in that game and to inform people who didn't know since then. One of those people I would have considered a friend before discovering their involvement. I quit showing altogether for a long time.

As far as slaughter, I've done what I can and have had plenty of rescues and fosters. I've also restarted many Tbs off the track for (hopefully!) productive new careers.

I offered my suggestion to shut down the ULs temporarily as continuing as it is, even with a safety summit scheduled, will invite AR to jump in to stop it for you. I am keeping my fingers crossed that no more horses die in the next few weeks as with 5 gone in 8 weeks, UL eventing is hanging onto a cliff edge by a fingernail.

I hope that answers your questions.
That explains everything! Your a PETA supporter! :rolleyes::no:

[subk]

You forgot "the fact is that the expression is I *couldn't* care less." :winkgrin:
No I didn't. The fact is "could care less" is the direct quote I pulled from the previous post. I guess I should have added a [sic].

[3Day-Eventer]

The actions taken by USEA to this point aren't sufficient.

Most of these accidents are taking place in FEI events, not USEA. So, it really doesnt matter if the USEA takes great action. The FEI is a seperate entity. So, really, your attitude should be directed towards them.

[LLDM]

Yes, yes, much better.

Rug Bug,

Actually K-12 has the same sort of practices for a variety of issues not related to shootings (e.g. bus accidents, shop classes, teacher issues).

Sometimes the more complex the problem the more reason to stop. The complexity is the reason I push for epidemiologists and stasticians to be involved. They have the tools to search and highlight commonalities or differences. We need time to gaterh rider data, horse data, vet data, jump data etc. Then we can sort through that to look for patterns. Even things that do not appear to be quantifiable can be quantified statistically (parametric/non-parametric variables). Sometimes NOT stopping is like trying to repair a car on the highway at 70 mph.

Remember the Shuttle has over 6,000,000 moving parts and it took time to figure out what when wrong both times and both times were the non-moving parts.

Your last point must go towards the changing of the culture. For example, I want my students to always wear their personal protection equipment when conducting reactions. I could tell them or I can make sure I wear all of my PPE everytime I go in the lab. I establish a CULTURE of safety. This is where ULRs/BNRs/BNTs have got to get off of their butts and get involved. They need to pull up or to not even go and make sure their students/public knows exactly why. They are the ones to establish RIDER RESPONSIBILITY because they are the ones TEACHING it. They can not simply say it is/was the rider's responsibility and wash their hands of the issue.


Reed

Curious - is it possible for the FEI to shut down FEI level events in the US? At least temporarily? Although you may be savvy enough to shut your lab down before you are told to - don't many shut down only when they are told they must?

The culture change is huge, IMHO. All the rules in the world will not work well without the suport of the culture change. The question in my mind is if there is the will to do it. And, if not, can we do it without them.

SCFarm

[3Day-Eventer]

I'm with you Cool...and if you don't like what is being said y'all can feel free to leave...but I still won't be surprised if Rolex does withdraw their support...and GOD FORBID someone sics PETA on eventing....they are having a stroke over Eight Belles...wait till they get a load of whats going on in eventing...how about they shorten the courses so the rider's are not having to kick and beat their exhausted horses to keep going? and why can't they implement something like what they do in the jumpers?...2 refusals and you are out of there...a fall off and you are out of there...hit more than 3x with the whip...OUTTA THERE...Tigger croaked at what fence 28?? 28??:eek: 28 or more jumps is asking wayyyyyy too much of our horses...promise we won't think any less of eventers if they do something like I suggested above. These are just my opinions...I'm sure I will get sliced and diced for them just as Cool has been.

I have NEVER seen a rider 'kick' or 'beat' and 'exhausted' horse to keep going. I am not sure that you have either, if you have, tell us when. I'd love to hear it. And if you do see it you should run, not walk, to the nearest offical and let them know what you saw. I would. Although, like I said, I doubt if you ever seen anything like that.
We do have the 2 refusals and 'you are out' at Prelim and above in SJm (in the jumpers its only for USEF recognized classes, unrecognized is 3, just like in eventing). Same with a fall in SJ, one fall - you're out. Its about to be passed for XC too.
Also, we do have the hit more than 3X with a whip and you're out. We also cant used it over handed.
Before you bash our rules, you should read them. They aren't that differernt from the jumpers rules.

[RAyers]

Yes, yes, much better.

Curious - is it possible for the FEI to shut down FEI level events in the US? At least temporarily? Although you may be savvy enough to shut your lab down before you are told to - don't many shut down only when they are told they must?

The culture change is huge, IMHO. All the rules in the world will not work well without the suport of the culture change. The question in my mind is if there is the will to do it. And, if not, can we do it without them.

SCFarm

Given that the USEF is the NGB, they control all that is here and the FEI can't technically force a cometition to run. Yes, the FEI could shut us down but that is doubtful.

Given there is not shut down (I made the proposal and it was discussed), we need to figure out how to fix the brakes on the train as we come down a long pass.

What gets me is when the term "rider responsibility" is tossed about as a complete answer but then those who toss it about also fail to take responsibility for their own actions towards decisions made on horses. An example is Phillips, in defending AT last year, saying the same thing happened to him, thus dismissing the need for rider responsibility in that case. That type of action set the TONE of the culture. Were he to have said, "I made a bad choice in 1974 and this is what happened...." It would have presented a whole NEW sense of accountability and serve as an example to all.


Reed

[Glimmerglass]

Just curious, but have any of the barbs traded over the last few pages deal at all with Rolex USA (http://www.rolex.com/en/#/en/xml/index) and their sponsorship of the Kentucky Three-Day event as the thread title would suggest?

[JAM]

I have NEVER seen a rider 'kick' or 'beat' and 'exhausted' horse to keep going. ....

Oooh, don't go there.

[Twomanydawgs]

Oooh, don't go there.

Yea, don't go there indeed! and what about Dobbins rider at Rolex who fell off and was allowed to continue on the course?? Anyone else see that?? Thought that was not allowed?? I started this thread because I wanted to know if anyone else had heard that Rolex was withdrawing support and that remains to be seen...I for one hope they do it...maybe then some of these "die hard" eventers will wake up out of their comas...die hard is a very apt description...their horse's do die hard...as well as some of the rider's.

[VicarageVee]

Rolex is not withdrawing support.

They feel that while the recent events have been tragic, their partnership with eventing is longstanding, and no doubt the sport will wether the current storm.


And on another note, I'm sick of how morbid this whole BB is becoming. All anyone does is complain about eventing, about how f***ed our sport is, how riders lack responsibility, and how political our sport is. Seriously? Get over it or leave it. I used to be able to ask questions on this BB about horse care, and how one would negotiate sunken roads, and now that's all gone. This water is getting pretty toxic, and while I once felt that these voices needed to be heard, were positive for change, and fundamentally concerned for the welfare of our horses and riders, now I am concerned that this is all just churning up the water for shits and giggles--something that sure as hell won't help eventing (there are, of course, exceptions, and I'm sure you all know you are...and thank you). Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go do hill work and start thinking about changing eventing on a local level, with trainers and ULRs in my Area, and not spend anymore time dealing with the negativity and antagonizing voices on this BB. I'd love it to go back to being a forum where we can speak openly, and ask every kind of question, but I can see that that is unlikely. Sorry for being a curmudgeon, everyone hits a wall now and again.

*sigh*

[nirvana002]

Did you read the whole article?
His point was if you have not experienced those things you should not be judging what the riders should or should not have been doing as it was happening because you have no idea how or what they felt and when. I agree 100% with this.
The year I rode at the Medal finals the rider before me had a fully rotational fall on course. Rider was injured and I am not sure whether the horse was or not. This was one of the top jr riders in the country, in an arena over a 3'6" course with a very experienced horse.
A few months ago a showjumper was euthanized after a fall on course. The horse and rider were very experienced.
While we eventers can continue to strive to make our sport as safe as possible (and we absolutely should!), there is no way to prevent accidents from happening in any equine sport - even on a recreational level. Changing the sport entirely from what it is is the wrong direction to go. There is no information to prove that that will make our sport any safer.
We need well thought out strategic planning and data analysis.
Ruthie

Thank you, you are so wise...and so much more eloquent than I am. You always have so many good points, that are great for this forum... Oh and I expect nothing less than a 23...you know what I mean.

[3Day-Eventer]

Oooh, don't go there.

Why? I can honestly say that in all my years of eventing, I havent.

[3Day-Eventer]

Yea, don't go there indeed! and what about Dobbins rider at Rolex who fell off and was allowed to continue on the course?? Anyone else see that?? Thought that was not allowed??

You're wrong, its allowed.
Like I said, before you comment on eventing rules (either USEA or FEI), you should read them.
And, what does that have to do with beating an exhausted horse? I've seen plenty of riders fall and continue, but like I said, have never seen a rider beat an exhausted horse to finish. Have you? If so, you should have done something about it. Not written about it on an online BB.

[Kementari]

Yea, don't go there indeed! and what about Dobbins rider at Rolex who fell off and was allowed to continue on the course?? Anyone else see that?? Thought that was not allowed?? I started this thread because I wanted to know if anyone else had heard that Rolex was withdrawing support and that remains to be seen...I for one hope they do it...maybe then some of these "die hard" eventers will wake up out of their comas...die hard is a very apt description...their horse's do die hard...as well as some of the rider's.

There is a proposed USEF rule change to make a fall of rider elimination. Two key words: "proposed" and "USEF." As with all rule changes in all USEF disciplines, it has to go through the proper process (I do believe there is a shorter process for "emergency" changes - someone more knowledgeable in that area can correct me if I am wrong - but it still isn't instant, nor should it be). And even had it been in effect at the time of Rolex, it still would not have mattered because Rolex is an FEI event.

Regardless, I'm not sure what a rider falling off and continuing has to do with beating a tired horse. I wasn't there, of course, but no one has accused Corinne of beating Dobbin (and I have seen her compete many times, and such an accusation would be outlandish, based on what I have seen).

[SR Rider]

Whew....lot of negative energy going into some of these commets. I really question whether
some of the contributors care about helping the sport or jazzing up the forum. With the
vitriol that is being spewed..makes you wonder if that person(s) would be capable of beating
a dead horse too.

[ACL]

There is a proposed USEF rule change to make a fall of rider elimination. Two key words: "proposed" and "USEF." As with all rule changes in all USEF disciplines, it has to go through the proper process (I do believe there is a shorter process for "emergency" changes - someone more knowledgeable in that area can correct me if I am wrong - but it still isn't instant, nor should it be). And even had it been in effect at the time of Rolex, it still would not have mattered because Rolex is an FEI event.

Regardless, I'm not sure what a rider falling off and continuing has to do with beating a tired horse. I wasn't there, of course, but no one has accused Corinne of beating Dobbin (and I have seen her compete many times, and such an accusation would be outlandish, based on what I have seen).
Actually, Corinne Ashton was reprimanded by the TD at an event last year for hitting her horse repeatedly in the face with a crop after she had completed the cross country phase. She chose to beat the tired horse after the finish.

[nirvana002]

Actually, Corinne Ashton was reprimanded by the TD at an event last year for hitting her horse repeatedly in the face with a crop after she had completed the cross country phase. She chose to beat the tired horse after the finish.

If she had hit her horse in the face with anything and a TD saw it, there would have been an official yellow card handed to her. Unless that was the case, and you don't really know...don't start rumors of something you may have heard and also, why in god's name do you think someone would hit a tired horse in the face??? Because it would make them go more foward? If she was repremanded and you know who the TD was, please send me a pm with the name of the TD and I will get to the bottom of it...but I am sure you won't do that..will you?

[ACL]

If she had hit her horse in the face with anything and a TD saw it, there would have been an official yellow card handed to her. Unless that was the case, and you don't really know...don't start rumors of something you may have heard and also, why in god's name do you think someone would hit a tired horse in the face??? Because it would make them go more foward? If she was repremanded and you know who the TD was, please send me a pm with the name of the TD and I will get to the bottom of it...but I am sure you won't do that..will you?
Will do!

[nirvana002]

Will do!

You "seeing it with your own eyes" is not what I asked you to PM me...who was the TD and at what event? Sorry for not taking your word for it over a respected rider and horsewoman, but I am not going to. If you were told it was taken care of, you obviously don't know if she was reprimanded or not. SO, it is, infact, a rumor!

Jill

[chunky munky]

You're wrong, its allowed.
Like I said, before you comment on eventing rules (either USEA or FEI), you should read them.
And, what does that have to do with beating an exhausted horse? I've seen plenty of riders fall and continue, but like I said, have never seen a rider beat an exhausted horse to finish. Have you? If so, you should have done something about it. Not written about it on an online BB.

Yes, last year at at rolex. I watched the live feed. It was called 'pull up" She would not. She started the major dificulty of the 3 day sport with the public. then they have her as a commentator of the sport...:no:

[ACL]

You "seeing it with your own eyes" is not what I asked you to PM me...who was the TD and at what event? Sorry for not taking your word for it over a respected rider and horsewoman, but I am not going to. If you were told it was taken care of, you obviously don't know if she was reprimanded or not. SO, it is, infact, a rumor!

Jill
Unfortunately not respected by us anymore. We are just tired of seeing all of this great stuff written about her when we witnessed a pretty ugly example of "horsewomanship". I realize that this is not the point of this thread so I will sign off. Sorry if I have offended you in any way nirvana002.

[DustInTime04]

I'm with you Cool...and if you don't like what is being said y'all can feel free to leave...but I still won't be surprised if Rolex does withdraw their support...and GOD FORBID someone sics PETA on eventing....they are having a stroke over Eight Belles...wait till they get a load of whats going on in eventing...how about they shorten the courses so the rider's are not having to kick and beat their exhausted horses to keep going? and why can't they implement something like what they do in the jumpers?...2 refusals and you are out of there...a fall off and you are out of there...hit more than 3x with the whip...OUTTA THERE...Tigger croaked at what fence 28?? 28?? 28 or more jumps is asking wayyyyyy too much of our horses...promise we won't think any less of eventers if they do something like I suggested above. These are just my opinions...I'm sure I will get sliced and diced for them just as Cool has been


None of the horses that have died have had several stops, or really any at all, beforehand on course. So what good would that do? There are better ways to be proactive. And at the upper levels, it is pretty apparent horses are conditioned enough to be there... not to say they wouldn't be tired, but exhausted to where they have to be beat over fences? That's where the TD would step in and stop them. But since when are eventers cruel to horses to the point where "beating" them around is what gets them through the finish lines? I do agree, at the horse trial level there are some riders that use their whip frequently, but everytime I have seen it, a jump judge reports it and the case is settled privately. So if that is such a big deal that you feel the need for an even more strict rule change, maybe you should mention that, though I personally don't think that is related to these accidents. Eventers as a whole are not bloodthirsty to finish their cross country course no matter the cost. They love these horses, and to judge these riders when their beloved horses have left this Earth, is incredibly disrespectful. I am sure Laine Ashker (along with the other riders who have lost their partners this year) deal with enough guilt without the need for people to say that these eventers are killing their horses.

But actually, the only reason I wrote wasn't because of your skewed rule change ideas, but instead the fact that you referred to the death of an animal as "croaking"... very respectful...

[Jazzy Lady]

If the TD sees or hears about it, they are all over it. I witnessed a young girl fall off her horse in the low level of the sport. I gave her a leg back up, she wheeled around and represented without so much as taking a deep breath. She fell again, but managed to hold onto her horse. She took her whip and smacked it 3 times on the head from the ground. Poor thing. I was just picking up my radio when I heard a car door slam behind me. The TD witnessed it and was at that girl's side so fast her head spun.

Same weekend I witnessed an experienced rider pushing a very fatigued horse around a training course. I radioed it in and she was watched, but the TD was far away and couldn't see it, but the rider and the td had a discussion afterwards.

If any of you see that happen, call it in!!!! It's wrong. We eventers think so too!! Sure there will always be bad apples in the bunch, but it doesn't mean we all beat our horses past exhaustion!

Back to the OT. I highly doubt Rolex will pull their sponsorship. They have had bad things happen at the 3-day before, and I'm sure they were fully aware of the risk of the sport before sponsoring. This is the time where we need the support, especially the financial support, to help do research and find sure ways to help the sport become safer, not knee-jerk reactions.

[Kementari]

I see no DQs or DR penalties on Corinne's record - and since the supposed witness is willing to name neither the event nor the TD, I think that accusation belongs in the circular file. :no:

[JAM]

I guess you missed last year's Rolex. Do you really want me to say more?

Why? I can honestly say that in all my years of eventing, I havent.



I have NEVER seen a rider 'kick' or 'beat' and 'exhausted' horse to keep going. I am not sure that you have either, if you have, tell us when. I'd love to hear it. And if you do see it you should run, not walk, to the nearest offical and let them know what you saw. I would. Although, like I said, I doubt if you ever seen anything like that.
We do have the 2 refusals and 'you are out' at Prelim and above in SJm (in the jumpers its only for USEF recognized classes, unrecognized is 3, just like in eventing). Same with a fall in SJ, one fall - you're out. Its about to be passed for XC too.
Also, we do have the hit more than 3X with a whip and you're out. We also cant used it over handed.
Before you bash our rules, you should read them. They aren't that differernt from the jumpers rules.

[joyful]

Be careful what you say. If you are not actively involved in eventing and only reacting to the press, perhaps you should try to become more educated in the amazing amount of time, money, thought and effort put towords solving the problems that this demanding sport is suffering from.

There isn't one horse sport that is free from animal rights and cruelty issues. There is one thing that I think that we all can agree on - you can't "force" a horse to participate at an event like Rolex (a **** level competition). By the time a horse has achieved this level, they know and enjoy the sport. Let's try to think of ways to solve the problems, not kick someone when they're down. Please, if you're not well educated in eventing, control your comments. How would you like the event people coming after the hunter/jumper people for the issues of drugs?

Luckily, Rolex is run by smart business people who understand the power of committed partnerships. Rolex has been a sponsor of eventing for 30 years. It will take more than this to throw it off track. Show me another horse competition that has enjoyed that level of loyal sponsorship?! They are few and far between. Congratulations to EEI and Rolex for weathering hard times!

[lstevenson]

Be careful what you say. If you are not actively involved in eventing and only reacting to the press, perhaps you should try to become more educated in the amazing amount of time, money, thought and effort put towords solving the problems that this demanding sport is suffering from.

There isn't one horse sport that is free from animal rights and cruelty issues. There is one thing that I think that we all can agree on - you can't "force" a horse to participate at an event like Rolex (a **** level competition). By the time a horse has achieved this level, they know and enjoy the sport. Let's try to think of ways to solve the problems, not kick someone when they're down. Please, if you're not well educated in eventing, control your comments. How would you like the event people coming after the hunter/jumper people for the issues of drugs?

Luckily, Rolex is run by smart business people who understand the power of committed partnerships. Rolex has been a sponsor of eventing for 30 years. It will take more than this to throw it off track. Show me another horse competition that has enjoyed that level of loyal sponsorship?! They are few and far between. Congratulations to EEI and Rolex for weathering hard times!


Great post! Welcome joyful! :)

[Moderator 1]

This thread has been all over the place and filled with a lot of insults and accusations, all the way 'round.

First, avoid the personal commentary and gross generalizations that only serve to degrade the conversation. If you can't stomach the opinions of another poster and can't respond without resorting to name calling, etc.--utilize the IGNORE feature in your User Control Panel, which will render their posts unreadable to you. You'll have to shield your eyes if another poster chooses to quote that person however.

Second, there are obviously many active threads exploring various aspects of eventing safety, etc.--this one was started regarding Rolex's sponsorship status. Whether or not that has been accurately established, base future comments on this thread on that topic. Seek out another appropriate thread for other topics.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[snoopy]

Actually, Corinne Ashton was reprimanded by the TD at an event last year for hitting her horse repeatedly in the face with a crop after she had completed the cross country phase. She chose to beat the tired horse after the finish.



I do not know who you are but you had better get something straight....you might want to think very carefully before writing such filthy lies...and that is just what your post is...nothing more than a lie.


Jill asked you for the TD and event, I would ask that you send that info to me as well....


To everyone else who has read this vile post:

Rest assured that NOTHING like this occured...never has and never will. There is no record of this because it did not happen. Corinne is the kindest, most compasionate horse owner, horse lover, competitor, and horsewoman and you will NEVER see her abuse any living being, horse or otherwise.

Jill:


Thanks for speaking up.

[LLDM]

Given that the USEF is the NGB, they control all that is here and the FEI can't technically force a cometition to run. Yes, the FEI could shut us down but that is doubtful. Yeah, I think technically they could, but they wouldn't be willing to cause an uproar (yet...) or deal with the potential consequences.

Given there is not shut down (I made the proposal and it was discussed), we need to figure out how to fix the brakes on the train as we come down a long pass. I know it's tricky - but it can be done. More effort, some discomfort, and a bit of bravery - but even complex, constant motion systems can be fixed on the fly.

What gets me is when the term "rider responsibility" is tossed about as a complete answer but then those who toss it about also fail to take responsibility for their own actions towards decisions made on horses. An example is Phillips, in defending AT last year, saying the same thing happened to him, thus dismissing the need for rider responsibility in that case. That type of action set the TONE of the culture. Were he to have said, "I made a bad choice in 1974 and this is what happened...." It would have presented a whole NEW sense of accountability and serve as an example to all. From your lips! Really, it kills me how little our leaders (of various types) are willing to step up to this.
Reed

If she had hit her horse in the face with anything and a TD saw it, there would have been an official yellow card handed to her.

I have NO idea if this happened or not - NONE, ZERO, NADA.

What I do know is that there is NO WAY for us (the public or members) to look up this information. NONE. This would be an excellent change along the way to rider responsibility.

I do agree, at the horse trial level there are some riders that use their whip frequently, but everytime I have seen it, a jump judge reports it and the case is settled privately. See, this is where I think we have lost something special to eventing. When I was coming up, we were spoken to publicly. Much. Greater. Impact. On everyone. And "taking it" and "taking it well" was part of the "tough" that eventers were known for.

They love these horses, and to judge these riders when their beloved horses have left this Earth, is incredibly disrespectful. I am sure Laine Ashker (along with the other riders who have lost their partners this year) deal with enough guilt without the need for people to say that these eventers are killing their horses. I am truly sorry to have to disagree here - but, unfortunately, I think we are passed the point of protecting people's feelings. We aren't little kids who lost our pet puppy. We are eventers who are 100% responsible for the health and well being of our horses. It is our job to protect them - and when we fail - for ANY Reason - we must take that responsibility even if we are in pain. If someone can't handle that, they should not be eventing. The Buck Stops Here.


If the TD sees or hears about it, they are all over it. I witnessed a young girl fall off her horse in the low level of the sport. I gave her a leg back up, she wheeled around and represented without so much as taking a deep breath. She fell again, but managed to hold onto her horse. She took her whip and smacked it 3 times on the head from the ground. Poor thing. I was just picking up my radio when I heard a car door slam behind me. The TD witnessed it and was at that girl's side so fast her head spun.

Same weekend I witnessed an experienced rider pushing a very fatigued horse around a training course. I radioed it in and she was watched, but the TD was far away and couldn't see it, but the rider and the td had a discussion afterwards.

See, this is exactly why I think that mandatory suspensions are a good thing. It needs to be in people's minds that they are going to be set down for this crap.

No one - no TD or Jump Judge or passer-by can get in between a horse & rider and stupid fast enough.

Speeding tickets might make some people slow down. But telling them there are 2 speed traps on their way to work will definitely slow them down.

I see no DQs or DR penalties on Corinne's record - and since the supposed witness is willing to name neither the event nor the TD, I think that accusation belongs in the circular file. :no:

Again - Not to pick on Corinne - I do not know her or ANYTHING about this. But Warnings are not available to the public or members. Maybe some officials have access to this info. Anyone know?

SCFarm

[Twomanydawgs]

Obviously eventing was having the SAME problems wayyyyyyyyyy back in 1979 after Lexington! "We want to save the horse and the sport. If we don't do something about it now I believe Lexington will happen again"-Jack LeGoff... "What are we going to do with this sport, this monster we have created"-Mike Plumb... The whole article is on the Horse Community if anyone cares to read it...in the article it said that after Lexington the puplic came away with the feeling that the sport was an "unneccessarily punishing sport". This is why I won't be surprised if Rolex does withdraw...it is the PUBLIC that is going to bring you down....especially if the media and org. like PETA get their teeth into it...then that will be a sad day for all horse enthusiasts not just eventers.

[LLDM]

Obviously eventing was having the SAME problems wayyyyyyyyyy back in 1979 after Lexington! "We want to save the horse and the sport. If we don't do something about it now I believe Lexington will happen again"-Jack LeGoff... "What are we going to do with this sport, this monster we have created"-Mike Plumb... The whole article is on the Horse Community if anyone cares to read it...in the article it said that after Lexington the puplic came away with the feeling that the sport was an "unneccessarily punishing sport". This is why I won't be surprised if Rolex does withdraw...it is the PUBLIC that is going to bring you down....especially if the media and org. like PETA get their teeth into it...then that will be a sad day for all horse enthusiasts not just eventers.

Hello? Where have you been? That thread was already done - I *think* it just fell off the main page. It was sent to DOC and KB among others.

And - many great safety rules came out of the problems of that particular competition. Course design and jump types were improved - and the BIG ONE - time penalties on XC were dropped from 4 Pts per second over to 1 Pt per sec. over. - thus drastically reducing the punishments for not making the time.

Like ANY set of rules or laws, they must change and evolve as time and experience teach us what works and doesn't. Most of the questions/problems from that time were answered very well. The questions have now continued to change over time, so now we once again must update the answers.

I too am frustrated that it is taking longer than it should. But don't try to say the questions from 30 years ago were not answered well. They were. I think maybe the questions that were not answered well are much more recent (i.e. how will the short format effect eventing at the upper levels and the lower levels).

But please - take a breath. Read the article. Then research what changed because of it. And see how well things went there for quite a while.

SCFarm

[snoopy]

Hello? Where have you been? That thread was already done - I *think* it just fell off the main page. It was sent to DOC and KB among others.

And - many great safety rules came out of the problems of that particular competition. Course design and jump types were improved - and the BIG ONE - time penalties on XC were dropped from 4 Pts per second over to 1 Pt per sec. over. - thus drastically reducing the punishments for not making the time.

Like ANY set of rules or laws, they must change and evolve as time and experience teach us what works and doesn't. Most of the questions/problems from that time were answered very well. The questions have now continued to change over time, so now we once again must update the answers.

I too am frustrated that it is taking longer than it should. But don't try to say the questions from 30 years ago were not answered well. They were. I think maybe the questions that were not answered well are much more recent (i.e. how will the short format effect eventing at the upper levels and the lower levels).

But please - take a breath. Read the article. Then research what changed because of it. And see how well things went there for quite a while.

SCFarm




That's my momma!!!:D

[Twomanydawgs]

If you had read my entire post you would have understood that things have not changed enough...the public still percieves the sport as unneccessarily punishing...I was just looking at the pics posted by some of the posters on this bb...and it indeed looks like they are having fun and their horse's do not look stressed etc BUT at the higher levels its a whole different story and that is what the public is going to be seeing...the lower level obstacles are not scary...the higher levels I don't want to watch anymore and I'm not alone in this thinking.

[LLDM]

If you had read my entire post you would have understood that things have not changed enough...the public still percieves the sport as unneccessarily punishing...I was just looking at the pics posted by some of the posters on this bb...and it indeed looks like they are having fun and their horse's do not look stressed etc BUT at the higher levels its a whole different story and that is what the public is going to be seeing...the lower level obstacles are not scary...the higher levels I don't want to watch anymore and I'm not alone in this thinking.

I fully agree that eventing is in a crisis. I do not agree, however, that we have been in a constant state of crisis since 1979. We have not. I will admit that eventing *sucks* at managing public perceptions - which hither too has not been the worst thing in the world. But it does make it/us slow to respond and not so good a separating the *real* problems from the *perception* problems.

If I had to pick, I want the *real* problems fixed first and the public perception stuff can wait (not forever, mind you).

So yes, You are correct - we have to address all of it.

Here's the link to the last thread: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=146620

SCFarm

[LexInVA]

That's my momma!!!:D

Who's your Daddy? :lol:

[LLDM]

Who's your Daddy? :lol:

Rather personal question, dontchathink? :eek: 'noops knows - and you would be quite jealous! You would know too if you'd been paying attention.

SCFarm <who's wondering about Lex's baby-momma?> :winkgrin:

[LexInVA]

Rather personal question, dontchathink? :eek: 'noops knows - and you would be quite jealous! You would know too if you'd been paying attention.

SCFarm <who's wondering about Lex's baby-momma?> :winkgrin:

Hey, I know a lot more than you're giving me credit for and there is no Baby Momma Drama Llama here! This stallion is very picky about the mares that he chooses to live cover. :D

[Sandy M]

Read on another bb that Rolex is withdrawing it's sponsorship for cx events...any truth to this??...


Since they just increased the "payday" for anyone winning the Rolex Eventing Grand Slam from $250 K to (I think) $360K (Rolex/Badminton,Burghley in succession), that doesn't seem likely.

[JaiPai]

I'm with you Cool...and if you don't like what is being said y'all can feel free to leave...but I still won't be surprised if Rolex does withdraw their support...and GOD FORBID someone sics PETA on eventing....they are having a stroke over Eight Belles...wait till they get a load of whats going on in eventing...how about they shorten the courses so the rider's are not having to kick and beat their exhausted horses to keep going? and why can't they implement something like what they do in the jumpers?...2 refusals and you are out of there...a fall off and you are out of there...hit more than 3x with the whip...OUTTA THERE...Tigger croaked at what fence 28?? 28??:eek: 28 or more jumps is asking wayyyyyy too much of our horses...promise we won't think any less of eventers if they do something like I suggested above. These are just my opinions...I'm sure I will get sliced and diced for them just as Cool has been.


Rather than complain and scream that the sport needs to be shut down we should be discussing ways in which to make the sport safer. That would be a more productive use of time.

How many times do you see riders beating beating their horses to finish? Event horses are kept at high levels of fitness, especially at the upper levels. My upper level mare cames off of the cross country course looking for more jumps. You are eliminated after the third refusal at the same fence or the fourth redusal on the course. Fall off and you are eliminated. You are disqualified for abuse of the horse, which includes excessive hitting with the whip. As far as the number of fences. Tigger Too died in the CCI3* that's an international competition. Yes it's demanding, but not unreasonable. The horses are trained for that long of a course. What happened to TIgger Too had nothing to do with the number of fences, or him not being trained or the rider being inexperienced or any of these things. He had an aortic rupture. Sad and very tragic. And yes research needs to be done to try and find a way to prevent that. But had there been a few less jumps on the course, chances are he still would have died.

[maxxtrot]

just wanted this to be seen by twomanydogs, and cm-we are doing things, maybe not to your thought of speed, but things are being looked into. we don't just stick our heads in the sand when these things happen.

USEA Steps Up Fundraising Efforts for Equine Research Health Study



Following the launch of its Equine Research Task Force at the end of March, the USEA is increasing its efforts to secure funding for studies into equine pulmonary hemorrhage and other sudden cardiovascular events. The loss of Direct Merger and Leprechaun's Rowdy Boy, who both died from hemorrhages during competition in March, led to the establishment of the Task Force. The recent loss of another upper level Event horse, Tigger Too, in what appears to be similar circumstances, has spurred on the effort as we try to determine what can be done to detect and prevent pulmonary hemorrhages and aneurysms in Event horses.

[deltawave]

the public still percieves the sport as unneccessarily punishing"The public" also variously believes that the prophecies in Revelation are being fulfilled as we speak, the earth is flat, and going outside with wet hair will cause pneumonia. :) Not all of "the public" perceives the sport as unnecessarily punishing, although many certainly do. How this kind of banter helps clarify things for "the public" is really beyond me.

[CoolMeadows]

Actually, I think a large percentage of the general (non-horsey and horsey alike) public believes it to be very punishing, especially when armed with the fact that the sport has killed 5 horses in 7 weeks. The public doesn't care that there's a vast difference between horses dead from flipping and those who suffer pulmonary bleeds or aortic ruptures. The public sees dead horses. Period.

While it's easy to say that eventers shouldn't be concerned about the public opinion because often public opinion has been wrong... the earth being flat et al - they are not wrong about the fact that there are quite a few dead horses recently in this sport.

The right to that opinion (and apparently the sadly nonexistant weight it seems to carry) is no different than, say, an eventer's opinion that they are fully aware of their rider responsibility and should be allowed to continue their ride by giving examples of how they are unable to stay on a horse stumbling at the trot in the grass, a green horse spooking, a rider concerned that this will teach a rank horse that if the rider's off it's done for the day (fix the issue at home perhaps? Or even investigate what you've done to cause the horse to hate work so much?) or deciding to let the horse make the decision as to which side of the tree to go around and being knocked off by the branches. Yes, yes, I know how hated I am on this board but seriously? These are examples of good choices and the types of riders who should be pointing horses at obstacles that don't fall down? :(

[J Swan]

The right to that opinion (and apparently the sadly nonexistant weight it seems to carry) is no different than, say, an eventer's opinion that they are fully aware of their rider responsibility and should be allowed to continue their ride by giving examples of how they are unable to stay on a horse stumbling at the trot in the grass, a green horse spooking, a rider concerned that this will teach a rank horse that if the rider's off it's done for the day (fix the issue at home perhaps? Or even investigate what you've done to cause the horse to hate work so much?) or deciding to let the horse make the decision as to which side of the tree to go around and being knocked off by the branches. Yes, yes, I know how hated I am on this board but seriously? These are examples of good choices and the types of riders who should be pointing horses at obstacles that don't fall down? :(

None of us is important enough to be hated - including you. And though you seem to think that "nothing" is being done - despite repeated posts pointing out what IS being done - you continue to assert that "nothing" is being done.

You don't even know what you want. A horse suffering EIPH, and an unprepared Novice rider are two different subjects. Both worthy of attention. But you might as well demand that Hunters fix its problem riders in a fortnight.

You simply can't wave a wand over this entire sport - and say voila - it's fixed. There - that was easy, wasn't it.

Not even you have defined the problem you expect this sport to "fix" with a wave of a magic wand.

And - if you actually looked around at the other disciplines - each one has its own set of problems - and many of those problems have a great deal in common with some of the problems we're seeing in Eventing.

So please - again - either offer something constructive or quit your frigging whining about how no one cares about the poor horses. You know that folks do care about their horses - and do care about the public's perception. But folks also know that it's not a good idea to allow the publics PERCEPTION to control the decision making process.

Fear based decisions end up being wrong. We don't need knee jerk reactions, we don't need baseless accusations of abuse, and honestly - you are really sounding like a broken record. Either offer a suggestion, offer to help, demonstrate willingness to consider and learn about the medical and veterinary knowledge being displayed on this BB - or for God's sake - just go away.

ETA - I should not be using the word, "We". I am not eventing anymore - just following the sport now.

[lstevenson]

So please - again - either offer something constructive or quit your frigging whining about how no one cares about the poor horses. You know that folks do care about their horses - and do care about the public's perception. But folks also know that it's not a good idea to allow the publics PERCEPTION to control the decision making process.

Fear based decisions end up being wrong. We don't need knee jerk reactions, we don't need baseless accusations of abuse, and honestly - you are really sounding like a broken record. Either offer a suggestion, offer to help, demonstrate willingness to consider and learn about the medical and veterinary knowledge being displayed on this BB - or for God's sake - just go away.



AMEN!!!!!

[retreadeventer]

What she said! yeah!

[CoolMeadows]

JSwan, I haven't ignored anything. I did participate, offer suggestions, support suggestions. Everyone's spinning circles. How hard can it possibly be to hold off even 10 days' worth of competition to at least get frangible pins in place? Eventing could at least do that tiny step towards safety plus it will give the public the impression that something tangible is being done whilst studies are taking place.

No, I'm not a vet but I'm by no means ignoring explanations from veterinarians. I'm a horse owner - of course I want to be as knowledgeable as possible. I'm lucky enough to have been a tech for Godolphin's personal vet way back when. I don't think that makes me someone likely to be closed off to seeking knowledge. I just do not understand in any way the reasons behind eventing basically giving the finger to a very concerned public. They need a major PR overhaul. Doing something real and tangible right now would go a long, long way. Talking about summits and increased funds for studies while it carries on is better than nothing, but it's not a move that's going to make any outsider consider this a compassionate or caring sport.

[J Swan]

Everyone isn't spinning circles. Folks on this BB are brainstorming. And it goes round and round. As I pointed out to you in another thread - a poster recently came back from a horse trial and commented on new safety measures. The letter from the USEA. New proposed rule changes.

Ah - never mind. Everyone has posted - again and again - what is happening - right now - to implement safety changes. And what groups to study the veterinary aspect.

So please - go back and read those posts - because frankly - I'm starting to wonder why folks are going to the trouble of typing them out for you again.

Frangible pins would not have saved some of these horses. Frangible pins are not a silver bullet.

If you are so concerned about this sports image - then volunteer to work on a pr campaign. I tell you what - the general public is more worried about gas prices than Tigger. I'm not downplaying public perception - but I'd rather grant money be spent on advancing veterinary medicine than making people feel warm and fuzzy about this sport. So by all means - write the USEA a big check and/or volunteer to head a massive PR campaign. It would be a more productive use of your time than insisting everyone is doing everything wrong - and you could do it better.

So do it.

[riderboy]

"The public" that I know has absolutely no idea about what has happened in our sport where I live, and that includes our vet who came out this morning. He does racehorses near us in Kentucky. There is never coverage here of Rolex even though it is only a 3 hour drive away. Geography may make a huge difference in that elsewhere. What DOES get coverage are people keeping starved and abused horses under appalling conditions. My vet also says that for the first time they are seeing horses simply turned loose and abandoned. Slaughter law change? I don't know. The serious eventers who post here are very, very, concerned about the sport, yes. Being a screaming stewardess is most unhelpful. My point? Don't beat us over the head with "the public" cause I don't buy it. I'm confident we will solve these problems but it will take time. Quite frankly no one I know horsey or non-horsey likes PETA

[CoolMeadows]

I guess location does come in to play riderboy. I ran into three people today who expressed their disgust over eventing (no, I didn't bring it up!). In fairness, only one is a member of the completely non-horsey public with the other being a trailer builder and the third a h/j trainer. All three used the word cruel. Again, with much luck (given the rate of the recent tragedies, luck is going to play a large part), there will be no more deaths before whatever changes eventually agreed upon come into play and your sport will survive.

JSwan, I'm aware that frangible pins aren't a magic bullet as far as the pulmonary bleed and aortic rupture related deaths but again, they are a TINY step in the right direction, and one that could be implemented immediately. It would show both a concerted effort and be something tangible that the public can grasp onto as a responsible and caring move.

[Snapdragon]

CoolMeadows, the fact is that "eventing" is not just spinning its wheels. And I think you know that. If your point is that you think all competitions should halt for a period, well that's been hashed and rehashed on this board. It may be a good idea, but it's not happening.

I read your posts, and I see a lot of frustration and anger--mostly anger. Although lots of us (eventers) also have the same feelings, we know that it takes more than a knee-jerk reaction to solve complex problems. Even though the public, whoever that is, may just see dead horses, we know that the causes of those dead horses are varied.

Please wait to see the outcome of all that is being done, on many levels, before you, again, slam all of us who event. Also, some of the best horsemen I know are eventers. These are people who care deeply about and truly love their horses and who stop at nothing to make sure they are well cared for and well trained.

[DizzyMagic]

Actually, I think a large percentage of the general (non-horsey and horsey alike) public believes it to be very punishing, especially when armed with the fact that the sport has killed 5 horses in 7 weeks. The public doesn't care that there's a vast difference between horses dead from flipping and those who suffer pulmonary bleeds or aortic ruptures. The public sees dead horses. Period.

While it's easy to say that eventers shouldn't be concerned about the public opinion because often public opinion has been wrong... the earth being flat et al - they are not wrong about the fact that there are quite a few dead horses recently in this sport.



You're right. The public sees dead horses. Period. However, the "general" public seems to think every horse sport is horse-racing. The deaths blend all together for any non-horsey acquaintances of mine who have brought it up and they don't know there's anything distinct about the rough time we've had in eventing or that it is different from what happened to Barbaro or Eight Belles. Occasionally, they'll remember "ohh, Eventing, that's what Christopher Reeve did." I'd just like to suggest that my fellow horse sport enthusiasts don't think their sport is "safe" from intervention by animal rights activists - if eventing were to be attacked, do you really think a group of non-horse activists will understand the difference between that and a hunter jumper show?

There is momentum for change here. We are trying. Instead of browbeating your fellow horsemen, who desperately love our horses just as much as you love yours, why don't you join the effort?? Not just for the good of one sport, but for the good of all horse sports, and for the good of the horses themselves.

Emily

[CoolMeadows]

Emily, I know that the public sucks at differentiating horse sports. If the eventing deaths continue while studies are being conducted and an AR group feels the need to step in to speak up for the horses, yes it will be opening the door for everyone in every horse sport. At some point I have to question my own motivations if the thought of an outsider jumping in to save an animal's life angers or frightens me as it seems to for so many here. It frightens me only because it means a sport has become so far out of control as to need that type of radical attention, and that means that fellow horsemen have allowed it to get to that point.

I'd love to be part of a positive change, but the biggest positive in my mind has been blown off by the powers that be. I think that DSLD is fascinating as related to aortic ruptures. I think the proposal of frangible pins should be implemented (immediately!). I honestly do hope that eventing can get it sorted out before more die, but as I've said before - if the immediate past is an indication of what's to come in the near futre, I do not have high hopes.

[DizzyMagic]

At some point I have to question my own motivations if the thought of an outsider jumping in to save an animal's life angers or frightens me as it seems to for so many here. It frightens me only because it means a sport has become so far out of control as to need that type of radical attention, and that means that fellow horsemen have allowed it to get to that point.

I'd have a helluva lot more respect for animal rights groups "jumping in to save an animal's life" if they set up camp outside the New Holland auction. Anyone who feels the need to jump in could do a lot of good by jumping in there. At the moment, I'm losing a lot of respect for my so-called "fellow horsemen" who can slam eventing in the same breath that they defend the problems (including deaths) in their own disciplines, and who as a unit seem capable of turning a blind eye to the hundred thousand horses a year who end up in the slaughterhouses.

If it's really all about the horse for you, then it's not just about eventing.

Emily

[CoolMeadows]

I'd have a helluva lot more respect for animal rights groups "jumping in to save an animal's life" if they set up camp outside the New Holland auction. Anyone who feels the need to jump in could do a lot of good by jumping in there. At the moment, I'm losing a lot of respect for my so-called "fellow horsemen" who can slam eventing in the same breath that they defend the problems (including deaths) in their own disciplines, and who as a unit seem capable of turning a blind eye to the hundred thousand horses a year who end up in the slaughterhouses.

If it's really all about the horse for you, then it's not just about eventing.

Emily


You are exactly right. I do hope AR groups start actually working with (good) rescues and showing up at auctions to outbid kill buyers, and no doubt I'm not the only one who's suggested that to them. You've lost me on the remark about defending problems in other disciplines. I appreciate your PM but clearly eventers do not want outsiders' opinions so ok, you all win. No more posting on eventing regarding this issue - I promise! Good luck to you all, my fingers are crossed that what should happen by logic over the next few weeks, won't.

[groom]

No more posting on eventing regarding this issue - I promise!

$10 says she can't stay away for a week.

[deltawave]

Another perspective on what "the public" is thinking:

I'm thinking of the last handful of people to whom I talked about horses--people I know casually, at work, people who see me wearing horse "gear", etc.

Of the half dozen or so I can think of recently, most of them said something along the lines of how sad it was about Eight Belles. Sad. The word "cruel" did not come up. One mentioned how awful it was that (apparently there was a news story somewhere) horses are being turned loose to fend for themselves out west due to the bad economy/slaughter rule changes. Another did use the word "cruel"--they thought it was cruel to make horses perform in parades because they had to listen to all that noise and walk on pavement for hours. :)

People who know I event never say the word "cruel" to me. The word "nuts" comes up, but it's referring to the riders. ;)

[J Swan]

You are exactly right. I do hope AR groups start actually working with (good) rescues and showing up at auctions to outbid kill buyers, and no doubt I'm not the only one who's suggested that to them. You've lost me on the remark about defending problems in other disciplines. I appreciate your PM but clearly eventers do not want outsiders' opinions so ok, you all win. No more posting on eventing regarding this issue - I promise! Good luck to you all, my fingers are crossed that what should happen by logic over the next few weeks, won't.

If PeTa decides to start helping with rescuing horses - they're going to need a bigger freezer in Norfolk. No animal rights group operates any shelter or holding area for animals - pets or livestock.

PeTa does, however, kill just about every animal it "saves". Healthy, adoptable animals - and they get them by promising owners and clinics that they're going to find the animals good homes.

Seen that white PeTA van driving around? It's filled with dead animals they've "saved". And that big walk in freezer at their headquarters isn't used to store food for the Christmas party.

The last thing any good rescue needs is AR groups "helping", thank you very much. I work too hard trying to find these animals homes - and try very hard to educate the public about responsible animal ownership - to have it all undone by PeTA people running around naked calling us all animal murderers.

And I find it odd that you and I both live in Virginia - and yet - my fellow horsemen have demonstrated nothing but concern, good wishes, commiseration, and suggestions for improvement in rider education. Perhaps you should associate yourself with a higher quality of person.

Some tear down - others lift up. Guess which type actually gets the job done. It's not the folks on the sidelines bitching and pointing fingers. And it's certainly NOT animal rights groups.

And again - I find it extraordinary that you still are incapable of reading the English language. As an "outsider" my posts have been met with thoughtful, candid, intelligent responses. Some of the issues in eventing are not unique to that sport. EIPH is not limited to eventers. Rotational falls are seen in other horse sports. Gaps in rider education are seen throughout the disciplines. Many people complain it is difficult to find good instructors. Eventers seem to be rather open to suggestions from folks from other sports - as this sport, a complete test - draws on the knowledge, skills and ability of other sports. I often lurk on this forum and never fail to learn something new.

So again - what I'm reading is a bunch of sour grapes from you. I think it's a crying shame that the horse world has people that delight in the misfortunes of others. And I'm also damn sure that your purpose here is to only promulgate misinformation and half truths - since you appear unwilling to read, understand and consider any of the posts answering your questions.

Begone.

[riderboy]

Groom; I'll take a peice of that.

[riderboy]

And yes Deltawave,my co-workers are always quick to remind me when I tell them I'm going to a show,(before their eyes glaze over with boredom) "don"t break your hip again!" Yeah, thanks for reminding me!

[RugBug]

I'd love to be part of a positive change, but the biggest positive in my mind has been blown off by the powers that be.

And because others feel that a shut down isn't feasible and/or is not going to happen, you are stamping your feet and yelling that no one is doing anything. Your like a kid in a store that really wants the toy and is being told no.

Quit pitching a tantrum and come up with ANOTHER positive idea. I know you are smart enough to have more than just one idea.

As for public opinion? I live in CA. The one thing just about anyone, from close friends to acquaintances, knows about me is that I love horses. I've had ONE ask me about the recent tradegy...of EIGHT BELLES. I'm at a backyard-ish mixed use barn (dressage, eventing, H/J) and a lot of the boarders know about Eight Belles. Fewer know about Frodo. Only a handful know about Direct Merger and Rowdy Boy. Fewer still about Tigger Too. If even the horsey public is oblivious, do you really think a huge section of the non-horsey public is so aware?

This doesn't mean that eventing doesn't need to examine what is happening, WHICH THEY ARE, but it's not like the public is on a witch hunt. AR groups may turn it into that, but even a witch hunt takes time to set in motion.

[lstevenson]

If PeTa decides to start helping with rescuing horses - they're going to need a bigger freezer in Norfolk. No animal rights group operates any shelter or holding area for animals - pets or livestock.

PeTa does, however, kill just about every animal it "saves". Healthy, adoptable animals - and they get them by promising owners and clinics that they're going to find the animals good homes.

Seen that white PeTA van driving around? It's filled with dead animals they've "saved". And that big walk in freezer at their headquarters isn't used to store food for the Christmas party.

The last thing any good rescue needs is AR groups "helping", thank you very much. I work too hard trying to find these animals homes - and try very hard to educate the public about responsible animal ownership - to have it all undone by PeTA people running around naked calling us all animal murderers.

And I find it odd that you and I both live in Virginia - and yet - my fellow horsemen have demonstrated nothing but concern, good wishes, commiseration, and suggestions for improvement in rider education. Perhaps you should associate yourself with a higher quality of person.

Some tear down - others lift up. Guess which type actually gets the job done. It's not the folks on the sidelines bitching and pointing fingers. And it's certainly NOT animal rights groups.

And again - I find it extraordinary that you still are incapable of reading the English language. As an "outsider" my posts have been met with thoughtful, candid, intelligent responses. Some of the issues in eventing are not unique to that sport. EIPH is not limited to eventers. Rotational falls are seen in other horse sports. Gaps in rider education are seen throughout the disciplines. Many people complain it is difficult to find good instructors. Eventers seem to be rather open to suggestions from folks from other sports - as this sport, a complete test - draws on the knowledge, skills and ability of other sports. I often lurk on this forum and never fail to learn something new.

So again - what I'm reading is a bunch of sour grapes from you. I think it's a crying shame that the horse world has people that delight in the misfortunes of others. And I'm also damn sure that your purpose here is to only promulgate misinformation and half truths - since you appear unwilling to read, understand and consider any of the posts answering your questions.

Begone.



J Swan, you are my new hero. :)

[riderboy]

I have to say, JSwan and you other peeps, you are humbling to be in the presence of. What a great post on PETA. If I may share a quick story, because I believe it helps illustrate who we are as horsepeople and animal lovers. At Rolex a few years ago, an announcement was made by that cool English announcer guy during a showjumping break. Someone had left a doggy in their car on the parking lot and would they please attend to it because the windows were rolled up. A spontaneous BOOOO rolled across the audience from everywhere. It was great! It was a brave man who made a move for his car that afternoon. We love our animals and people who tell us we are abusive and cruel are just ignorant.