Initial Necropsy Reveals Abdominal Aortic Rupture To Blame In Tigger Too’s Death

[Carol Ames]

so,no rider error, exhausted horse:no:, or bad fence:no: design;this is the second year a row, something like this has happened at Jersey fresh;i certainly hope the t hepress releases have gotten to the :no:'rabble rousers" in the press

[Lori B]

Is this information posted somewhere on line? Link, please?

[Sannois]

so,no rider error, exhausted horse:no:, or bad fence:no: design;this is the second year a row, something like this has happened at Jersey fresh;i certainly hope the t hepress releases have gotten to the :no:'rabble rousers" in the press
Is a death sentence to a horse on course, Humans will bleed out in minutes
A weakness or spongyness in the wall of the Aorta.from what I understand its like a bulge in the aortia wall, like on a tire. If it ruptures. Thats all she wrote.
Actually our Deltawave can shed knowledgable light on this subject being a cardioligist.
Where is the necropsy report posted?

[Highflyer]

From useventing.com:

"Preliminary necropsy findings on the horse "Tigger Too," a seventeen-year-old gelding, showed that he passed away from an acute abdominal aortic rupture. Final necropsy results are pending."
(http://useventing.com/competitions.php?section=fei&id=1508)

[riderboy]

I have to tell you, I'm a physician also and I have Never read so much ignorance on a subject as this one. There are a couple of posters on other threads who need to very carefully reconsider what they are saying about this incident. Only the truth and facts can help us out of this complicated dynamic of horse and rider tragedies. Thanks for the post.

[retreadeventer]

Riderboy, I agree, however, I will say this; I have trained racehorses and been at the track on numerous occasions when horses have had both bleeding, heart, and exhaustion episodes that resulted in various degrees of harm -- from discomfort from tying up all the way to death.
Those of us with racing experience...I just can't tell you enough, that it just doesn't happen with unfit horses. Fit horses don't die, it's that simple. Horses with compromised fitness from layoffs or improper conditioning are the ones who have these episodes. Fit horses can survive a bleed, a heart defib, a pulled tendon or suspensory and live to fight another day. Unfit horses can't save themselves, and tumble and break the other leg, or destroy a joint, or fall, and break their neck.

[deltawave]

What is a "heart defib", precisely? Please, if you're going to throw out medical terms to prove your point, use them correctly. I have been doing what *I* do a long time, too, and I've seen a handful of people drop dead at the end of a 20K race or a triathlon, often finishing in the top 10. You want to tell me they're "unfit"? Sure, the point is well taken that a horse/person/gerbil/termite that's operating well within its capabilities is being less hard on itself. But "fit" does not mean "safe" when it comes to these kinds of unpredictable catastrophes.

[retreadeventer]

I am not a vet or a doctor. But I ran a 30-40 horse racing stable for 20 years. I have raced probably 10,000 horses. You may fall all over your yourselves being high and mighty and educated but you are still posting on this board with the rest of us ignorant unlettered masses. Unfit horses are the ones at most risk -- period. I stand by that statement. People who race in marathons have absolutely NOTHING to do with event horses. Having been the person who made the horses fit -- by working them --- and I still do -- I can say that and don't have to care WHO thinks it is right or wrong. I'm right and I know it. I have 42 years experience giving me that opinion. There is no such thing as an accident, these horses have reasons they die.

[deltawave]

I'm right and I know it.

A truly excellent philosophy to have. :) Unassailable and very comfortable, I'm sure.

[Lauren!]

I have no professional experience with racing horses, and I'm not an upper level competitor... but I DO know a human... even a very fit human... can absolutely die of a ruptured abdominal aortic aneurysm in a very short period of time right in front of you, and there's little you can do besides get them to surgery very quickly. Sometimes (in people) these things are caught early and can be fixed, but by the time they rupture you do not have much time at all, I've seen it happen in people of various ages and physical conditions. I only know about people... but it doesn't seem a far leap that the same thing could happen to a horse in short order.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

Without wading too far into this impending quagmire:

retreadeventer: please be careful about extolling the virtues of the racing world, 'fit or not fit' the race industry needs to address the concept of 'too much inbreeding'

Heart Defib or 'Defibrillation' is a treatment not a cause.

From Wikipedia:

Defibrillation was first demonstrated in 1899 by Prevost and Batelli, two physiologists from University of Geneva, Switzerland. They discovered that small electric shocks could induce ventricular fibrillation in dogs, and that larger charges would reverse the condition.

The first use on a human was in 1947 by Claude Beck,[1] professor of surgery at Case Western Reserve University. Beck's theory was that ventricular fibrillation often occurred in hearts which were fundamentally healthy, in his terms "Heart too good to die", and that there must be a way of saving them. Beck first used the technique successfully on a 14 year old boy who was being operated on for a congenital chest defect. The boy's chest was surgically opened, and manual cardiac massage was undertaken for 45 minutes until the arrival of the defibrillator. Beck used internal paddles either side of the heart, along with procaine amide, a heart drug, and achieved return of normal sinus rhythm.

These early defibrillators used the alternating current from a power socket, transformed from the 110-240 volts available in the line, up to between 300 and 1000 volts, to the exposed heart by way of 'paddle' type electrodes. The technique was often ineffective in reverting VF while morphological studies showed damage to the cells of the heart muscle post mortem. The nature of the AC machine with a large transformer also made these units very hard to transport, and they tended to be large units on wheels.

Regards,

Kathryn

[deltawave]

One more time: we are not sure these horses have ANEURYSMS per se. Rupture is not the same thing as aneurysm. One can exist without the other. A "normal" (no aneurysm in sight) aorta can rupture, too, although one can very definitely argue that in that instance "normal" isn't the same as "healthy". :( Sorry to quibble. I think it's VERY important to be as precise as possible in these discussions.

[JER]

Regarding aortic ruptures...

I posted this on deltawaves 'pulmonary pressure monitor' thread but thought it might be worth mentioning here as the subject is aortic aneurysms.

A few years ago, there was a study done that recommended renaming Degenerative Suspensory Ligament Desmitis (DSLD) as Equine Systemic Proteoglycan Accumulation (ESPA) as studies showed the causes of DSLD were not just limited to the suspensory ligaments but affected other parts of the body, including the aorta. (There's a sort report about it in this pdf newsletter (http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/0737-0806/PIIS0737080606004485.pdf) (it's on page 4), other sources are cited in the newsletter and IIRC available online.)

In human Marfan's, the aorta may leak and 'heal' at various intervals without creating a fatal rupture. I was wondering if this might be what's going on in horses. Perhaps the stress of XC in competition contributes to the final rupture.

Marfan's is a genetic mutation having to do with fibrillin in connective tissues. Although Marfan's is often undiagonosed, it has a long list of clinical signs which may or may not be present to varying degree and number. There are other human connective tissue disorders that affect vascular and arterial tissues, Marfan's is just one of them but I mention it because it's well-known and often results in a ruptured aorta.

Definitely something we should be looking at in event horses: is there a horse version of Marfan's?

[LLDM]

Science vs Experience. We are not in any position to ignore either one.

SCFarm

[Acertainsmile]

I have to agree with Retread... I have also been in the racing industry for over 25 yrs, as a rider/trainer/assistant in a big barn... I've watched thousands of races, and have only seen a handful of these types of deaths... or collapses...most, if not all involved very "tired" horses.

If this happened at fence #5, I think it would be safe to say that the horse was not exhausted... but this happened at #28... so it is in the realm of possibility that he was.

[deltawave]

Chicken? Or egg? Does a flagging, "exhausted" looking horse act that way because something is wrong inside? Or does the act of becoming exhausted make whatever-it-is happen?

Bruce Davidson's advanced horse High Scope ruptured his aorta and died at FENCE THREE on a XC course a few years back.

ETA: correction--fence FOUR

[SEPowell]

Having been the person who made the horses fit -- by working them --- and I still do -- I can say that and don't have to care WHO thinks it is right or wrong. I'm right and I know it. I have 42 years experience giving me that opinion. There is no such thing as an accident, these horses have reasons they die.

A lot of us have experience with race horses and know what fitness is; all I can say to this post is you don't know what you don't know.

You're right when you say horses have reasons they die and many of those reasons have nothing to do with fitness.

[SEPowell]

Regarding aortic ruptures...

I posted this on deltawaves 'pulmonary pressure monitor' thread but thought it might be worth mentioning here as the subject is aortic aneurysms.

A few years ago, there was a study done that recommended renaming Degenerative Suspensory Ligament Desmitis (DSLD) as Equine Systemic Proteoglycan Accumulation (ESPA) as studies showed the causes of DSLD were not just limited to the suspensory ligaments but affected other parts of the body, including the aorta. (There's a sort report about it in this pdf newsletter (http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/0737-0806/PIIS0737080606004485.pdf) (it's on page 4), other sources are cited in the newsletter and IIRC available online.)

In human Marfan's, the aorta may leak and 'heal' at various intervals without creating a fatal rupture. I was wondering if this might be what's going on in horses. Perhaps the stress of XC in competition contributes to the final rupture.

Marfan's is a genetic mutation having to do with fibrillin in connective tissues. Although Marfan's is often undiagonosed, it has a long list of clinical signs which may or may not be present to varying degree and number. There are other human connective tissue disorders that affect vascular and arterial tissues, Marfan's is just one of them but I mention it because it's well-known and often results in a ruptured aorta.

Definitely something we should be looking at in event horses: is there a horse version of Marfan's?


That is so interesting

[Jazzy Lady]

Chicken? Or egg? Does a flagging, "exhausted" looking horse act that way because something is wrong inside? Or does the act of becoming exhausted make whatever-it-is happen?

Bruce Davidson's advanced horse High Scope ruptured his aorta and died at FENCE THREE on a XC course a few years back.

ETA: correction--fence FOUR

And at Rolex in 2002 Titelist also ruptured his aorta and flipped into the coffin which was relatively early in the course as well. This was still long format then. These horses were damn fit.

[CoolMeadows]

My question is have these aortic ruptures on XC been related to trauma or have they been the cause rather than the result of crashing into the jumps? A major trauma can cause this type of rupture in a human, is the same true in horses?

[Ghazzu]

I think it's quite a stretch to attempt to link aortic rupture to fitness or lack thereof.

Getting and keeping a horse "fit" is not going to prevent such an occurrence. I wish it could.

[Jazzy Lady]

My question is have these aortic ruptures on XC been related to trauma or have they been the cause rather than the result of crashing into the jumps? A major trauma can cause this type of rupture in a human, is the same true in horses?

Both High Scope and Titelist were galloping clean and great courses. Both ruptured, bled out and the result happened at a fence. It all depends on where the horse is when they bleed out. Unfortunately, both these horses were at fences when they bled out. The ruptured aorta was the cause of the fall of these animals, not a result.

[flyingchange]

Fascinating article on the equine equivalent to human Marfans. Thank you for sharing it. I wonder why this kind of testing isn't occuring very often?

[dr j]

Riderboy, I agree, however, I will say this; I have trained racehorses and been at the track on numerous occasions when horses have had both bleeding, heart, and exhaustion episodes that resulted in various degrees of harm -- from discomfort from tying up all the way to death.
Those of us with racing experience...I just can't tell you enough, that it just doesn't happen with unfit horses. Fit horses don't die, it's that simple. Horses with compromised fitness from layoffs or improper conditioning are the ones who have these episodes. Fit horses can survive a bleed, a heart defib, a pulled tendon or suspensory and live to fight another day. Unfit horses can't save themselves, and tumble and break the other leg, or destroy a joint, or fall, and break their neck.


As a veterinarian, I completely disagree. So you are saying that Swale wasn't fit mere days after winning the Belmont.

J

[dr j]

I would also mention as a vet and TB owner I am not impressed with the racetracker's definition of "fitness". We ( and I include myself in this) have probably been training our horses incorrectly for decades or longer. Add that to the current breeding trends and you have what we today.

J

[Showsheen]

Dr. J, without getting too much "free" information, could you elaborate on your ideas on proper conditioning and fitness as it should be and how it differs from what it is today. I am really interested in hearing what your thoughts are, so as much as you can share, please do, as I think if you do have a pearl or two, we should make it public....ideas?

[merrygoround]

I think it's quite a stretch to attempt to link aortic rupture to fitness or lack thereof.

Getting and keeping a horse "fit" is not going to prevent such an occurrence. I wish it could.

Right on! Riders noted for having extremely fit horses have had them collapse and die on course.

Dr. Cooper, a huge proponent of fitness and running, collapsed and died, I believe while running.

Race horses are a whole lot younger than these horses and people.

But then self righteous ignorance is bliss.

[deltawave]

Well, when humans drop dead it is usually from a cardiac issue that is completely nonexistent in horses.

The reason a lot of this "stuff" about horse aortas is unknown is due to lack of study. Case reports of all kinds of aortic pathology are floating around out there, but the aorta (other than very close to the heart) is very difficult to image in a horse, and who's going to pay for a screening stress echo on every equine athlete? The latter question is semi-rhetorical--I actually think screening echos may come to be a VERY good idea for potential upper-level horses. :yes:

[gully's pilot]

I don't know D'OC well, but I do know him--and he's a consummate horseman from the long-format era. Lauren is his student; Tigger was his long-time partner. I don't for one minute believe they ran Tigger unfit.

[LLDM]

I think it's quite a stretch to attempt to link aortic rupture to fitness or lack thereof.

Getting and keeping a horse "fit" is not going to prevent such an occurrence. I wish it could.

Why?

I don't mean to pick on you Ghazzu, but you are usually a very level headed, informed poster. So why is it so far fetched to link fitness level and aortic rupture? I mean we hear SO much about fitness and its positive impact on health - not just from human doctors, but from both small and large animal vets.

And I don't mean to say there is a direct link - no link? Is anyone in a position to know? How much of this is an educated guess?

So why is it then that we are losing these upper level horses AT events, ON XC, AT fences? That is why many are looking at a direct or specific link.

Could it be the opposite? Could it be that these horses ARE fit - and that they hit a wall much later than they would have if they weren't fit? That it takes extraordinary effort and cumulative effect to happen?

I am sorry - but doesn't reason lead us to really explore this path? I hate that people want to be SO defensive as to sweep options off the table by defending individuals. I do realize that it may be painful to ask hard questions. But if it were me, I would really want to know.

BTW - I has been me and I did want to know - but not being anyone in particular, there was no uproar to incite action.

SCFarm

[riderboy]

My experience with seeing traumatic aortic diseections in the OR with people is that they involve high speed motor vehicle accidents with sudden deceleration. The shearing forces are immense and involve the THORACIC aorta, not the abdominal, which was the case withTigger. Deltawave is right, we need to wait for final autopsy results, but I am willing to bet dollars to donuts there was a defect in Tiggers abdominal aorta, whether aneurysmal or some other connective tissue defect. I simply cannot imagine going from trot to canter for several strides and generating enough shearing force to tear an aorta in the abdomen? He would have at worst banged his chest, not his belly. Once again, before all the self-appointed judges,jurors and executioners of some very decent and hardworking people pass sentence, lets get the facts.

[J Swan]

these horses have reasons they die.


Well, of course they do. Everyone dies for a reason. We don't die from falling - we die from the sudden stop at the end.

Fit and unfit animals die - sometimes for the same reason, sometimes not. I have almost as much experience in the horse world as you do - and I have no unique insight into this animals death.

Neither do you.

[jilltx]

Honest question for you medical types: how can you tell if the rupture occurred before the jump or after the jump [fall] when doing a necropsy?

[CoolMeadows]

Honest question for you medical types: how can you tell if the rupture occurred before the jump or after the jump [fall] when doing a necropsy?

I've been curious about that too.

[pwynnnorman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_aortic_rupture
https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000162.htm

[JER]

Dr. Cooper, a huge proponent of fitness and running, collapsed and died, I believe while running.

Dr. Cooper is alive and well. I think you mean Jim Fixx.

[Janet]

WRT why "it" happens at the jump.

First, one of the horsees at Red HIlls died BETWEEN jumps.

Second, consider ANY imminent failure (for instance stiching on the girth that is about to go). If it is ready to "go" sometime in the next 2o strided, it is highly likely that the slightly extra tension going over the jump mean that it is more likely to give way over the top of the fence than between fences.

Same with a horse. Something "goes wrong" internally, and the horse is going to "bleed out" SOMETIME in the next 20 strides. If one of those strides is a jump, it is likely to be the one that actually "tears it open". But if they didn't have a jump, it just would have happened a few strides later.

[deltawave]

I think if we were going to see traumatic/deceleration types of rupture injuries in horses from slamming into a fence, it would very, very, VERY likely be localized to particular points in the aorta where there is "tethering" of the vessel to another structure. An example in humans is the area where the thoracic aorta and pulmonary artery are sort of "hitched" together by a small ligament, a remnant from embryologic development. That little attachment serves as a fulcrum, and when shear force is applied there, the aorta can and will tear/transect, right at that spot, virtually EVERY time.

The aorta (again, in humans) is more or less mobile otherwise, and can withstand a whole lot of beating without rupturing under normal or even extraordinary circumstance. If you look at victims of really, really dreadful trauma, the aorta, if it is transected, virtually always is transected in that one particular spot. It's a leap to apply this to horses, and I don't claim the level of expertise in horse anatomy that would be required to answer the question expertly, but if you asked me to guess, I'd say it's VASTLY more likely that the rupture was the result of some sort of inherent weakness of the vessel, brought to a catastrophic event by extreme exertion rather than trauma from a crash causing the rupture.

Jim Fixx had VERY severe coronary disease, had had bypass IIRC, and lived probably 20 years longer than he should have because he ran. :)

[Sannois]

I don't know D'OC well, but I do know him--and he's a consummate horseman from the long-format era. Lauren is his student; Tigger was his long-time partner. I don't for one minute believe they ran Tigger unfit.
Things happen, animal and human. Some to the best of athletes,
I seriously dont think this is the issue with uper level eventing.
Just my opinion.

[Bensmom]

In addition to what dw has explained as to how the acutal systems work, someone asked how you could tell what the actual cause of death was upon further examination, and, as I understand it, you get two necropsy reports -- the first one is done when they post the horse and can see evident causes of death -- that is your preliminary necropsy report, which has been issued here on Tigger and released in the official press release.

There is a more complete report prepared by the pathologist where the histology results will show the pathologist which injury, if there were two, actually was the cause of death.

In most cases, experienced pathologists can tell by examining the slides, but if there are two injuries present, and they can't tell which one is the actual cause of death, it will be stated that one was more likely to have been the actual cause of death.

It is important to recognize that the preliminary necropsy report on Tigger does not list two potential causes of death, so it will be unlikely that there will be another injury revealed that will be determined to be the actual cause of death.

Does that help?

Libby (keeping in mind that I am not a vet, but I did request this explanation to be phrased in such a way that even a lawyer could understand it)

[CoolMeadows]

If it's unlikely that these are trauma related injuries, what the h#ll is going on with your horses these days? Why are their bodies stressed to this point? It's not a fluke, there are too many going down for this reason. It can't keep going like this, why the sport is still active as of right now is beyond me. It's time to close it up while you figure it out so that the numbers don't keep growing.

[deltawave]

What is going on with MY horses? At the moment, they're eating grass. :)

As to why upper level event horses are dying--WE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE THAT OUT! There is no one single explanation, because the types of deaths are falling into three categories: trauma/fall, EIPH, and aortic rupture. As to closing the sport down while we figure it out--I'm inclined to agree with you at the very upper levels, or at least do some very quick workups on these horses to see if there's anything we're missing. But please don't lump all eventers in the same group. My very-lower-level critters are safe and well and happy and fit and every time I go out I *still* have to accept the fact that something bad could happen. This, by the way, is also true when I send my son to the school bus, get on the freeway, or eat fast food. :p

[SimpleSimon]

If it's unlikely that these are trauma related injuries, what the h#ll is going on with your horses these days? Why are their bodies stressed to this point? It's not a fluke, there are too many going down for this reason. It can't keep going like this, why the sport is still active as of right now is beyond me. It's time to close it up while you figure it out so that the numbers don't keep growing.

This doesn't only happen in eventing. And it hasn't just started happening recently.

I lost a horse to what the vets suspect was this same issue. I was 13 at the time, riding bareback on the trails and had just slowed to a walk (from a fun gallop) when it happened. No jump involved. No event. Horse in question was a QH/Morgan cross - I think he was about 11 years old but it has been long enough that I can't remember his age with certainty.

Sometimes it does just happen. Tragic? - yes. Always preventable? - no.

[CoolMeadows]

Agreed that it seems to be an UL problem with some smatterings of mayhem in Prelim. I don't have a problem with the lower levels... they're relatively safe and lots of fun. I do feel like it's a bad move to let the ULs continue right now. I know these incidents aren't isolated to eventing, but UL eventing is getting way more than its share for some reason.

[Ghazzu]

Why?

I don't mean to pick on you Ghazzu, but you are usually a very level headed, informed poster. So why is it so far fetched to link fitness level and aortic rupture?



Because you're essentially discussing the integrity of a piece of hosepipe.
Barring a pathological process, it ought to be serviceable in either a fit or an unfit animal.

[La Gringa]

This doesn't only happen in eventing. And it hasn't just started happening recently.

I lost a horse to what the vets suspect was this same issue. I was 13 at the time, riding bareback on the trails and had just slowed to a walk (from a fun gallop) when it happened. No jump involved. No event. Horse in question was a QH/Morgan cross - I think he was about 11 years old but it has been long enough that I can't remember his age with certainty.

Sometimes it does just happen. Tragic? - yes. Always preventable? - no.


Everyone knows it happens SOMETIMES in all horse sports. The difference here is the FREQUENCY in which it is happening right now in eventing. Every event it seems a horse dies, from one reason or another. Heart/lung or a fall, it's safety of horse and rider that is at stake here.

Everybody knows there is a problem. I wish they would just go back to the old format that wasn't causing so many problems the long format.... and see if it makes a difference.

A cross country course that is designed like a technical showjumping course is too stressful, when you consider there are often 50 jumping efforts in a Rolex type event or the Olympics.

I am actually scared to watch the Olympics... who's going to be next? :cry:

[Ghazzu]

And I don't mean to say there is a direct link - no link? Is anyone in a position to know? How much of this is an educated guess?

So why is it then that we are losing these upper level horses AT events, ON XC, AT fences? That is why many are looking at a direct or specific link.




If you have a hose with a weak spot, and you only run the water at low pressure and volume, it may be ok.
If you increase the pressure and volume, it blows.

[DeeThbd]

What is a "heart defib", precisely? Please, if you're going to throw out medical terms to prove your point, use them correctly. I have been doing what *I* do a long time, too, and I've seen a handful of people drop dead at the end of a 20K race or a triathlon, often finishing in the top 10. You want to tell me they're "unfit"? Sure, the point is well taken that a horse/person/gerbil/termite that's operating well within its capabilities is being less hard on itself. But "fit" does not mean "safe" when it comes to these kinds of unpredictable catastrophes.
Delta, am no medical professional, so my question is an honest one.
Is it possible that the athlete (human or equine), BECAUSE of the high level of fitness, could have weakened a particular structure leading to its failure?
Dee

[rebeginner]

I remember reading with interest the Equus magazine feature story on Tigger Too, which highlighted his miraculous recovery from several colic surgeries. Wouldn't multiple incisions in the gut have the potential to affect the abdominal aorta? I'm not suggesting a direct cause/effect relationship, necessarily, but couldn't it have the potential for a negative outcome if the aorta were put under stress (even in a very fit athlete)?

[Spoilsport]

A couple of relatively straightforward questions:

(1) Have they eliminated the possibility that there was a pulmonary hemorrhage?

(2) One of the early news reports said the necropsy showed that a pulmonary hemorrhage caused the aortic ruptures. Is that wrong? Is that even medically possible?

(3) Isn't a weakening of the aortic wall in a horse called an aneurysm :confused:? (I am trying to understand if there are other conditions besides trauma or an aneurysm that can cause a rupture.)

[deltawave]

Is it possible that the athlete (human or equine), BECAUSE of the high level of fitness, could have weakened a particular structure leading to its failure?All things are possible in biological systems, I guess, but I can't think of a particular disease state or pathological entity that would cause a great vessel to weaken ONLY because of intense activity. There virtually HAS to be some underlying weakness that is exploited/brought to the point of catastrophe by the exertion. Of course there is so much we DON'T know. Conventional wisdom of 50 years ago is now considered neanderthal in so many cases. Who's to say?

Wouldn't multiple incisions in the gut have the potential to affect the abdominal aorta? Highly unlikely. Abdominal surgery goes nowhere NEAR the aorta. Surgeons avoid big, pulsating vessels at all costs. :) Now, could surgery have caused scar tissue to develop near the aorta? Could surgery have interrupted, somehow, the vasa vasorum or arteries that supply blood to the aorta ITSELF? Possible, but again very, very unlikely. A necropsy would be able to sort this out.

One of the early news reports said the necropsy showed that a pulmonary hemorrhage caused the aortic ruptures. Is that wrong? Is that even medically possible?I can't think of a biologically plausible "cause and effect" scenario here. Very much more likely to be another example of the maddeningly sloppy and inaccurate way these medical terms are being slung around. I find it horrifying, the way these terms are used, misused, and exchanged for one another!

Isn't a weakening of the aortic wall in a horse called an aneurysm :confused:?Yes, sort of . . . the weakened wall of an artery CAN "bulge" and enlarge, and that swelling or bulge is then called an aneurysm. HOWEVER, the artery can be weakened but show no outward signs of swelling or bulging. The presence of collagen/vascular/connective tissue disorders (usually genetic) can predispose to aortic rupture with NO pre-existing aneurysm. Or dissection, another entity. (John Ritter)

[Sannois]

All things are possible in biological systems, I guess, but I can't think of a particular disease state or pathological entity that would cause a great vessel to weaken ONLY because of intense activity. There virtually HAS to be some underlying weakness that is exploited/brought to the point of catastrophe by the exertion. Of course there is so much we DON'T know. Conventional wisdom of 50 years ago is now considered neanderthal in so many cases. Who's to say?

Highly unlikely. Abdominal surgery goes nowhere NEAR the aorta. Surgeons avoid big, pulsating vessels at all costs. :) Now, could surgery have caused scar tissue to develop near the aorta? Could surgery have interrupted, somehow, the vasa vasorum or arteries that supply blood to the aorta ITSELF? Possible, but again very, very unlikely. A necropsy would be able to sort this out.

I can't think of a biologically plausible "cause and effect" scenario here. Very much more likely to be another example of the maddeningly sloppy and inaccurate way these medical terms are being slung around. I find it horrifying, the way these terms are used, misused, and exchanged for one another!

Yes, sort of . . . the weakened wall of an artery CAN "bulge" and enlarge, and that swelling or bulge is then called an aneurysm. HOWEVER, the artery can be weakened but show no outward signs of swelling or bulging. The presence of collagen/vascular/connective tissue disorders (usually genetic) can predispose to aortic rupture with NO pre-existing aneurysm. Or dissection, another entity. (John Ritter)
To simplify it even more. For some to blame eventing on these kinds of death is just nuts. With these kinds of problems it could occur in a pasture a galloping horse playing, or anytime a horse exerts itself.
To me this has no bearing on the problems with upper level eventing.
Tigger could have dropped schooling or galloping with his mates!
Thanks for the common sense approach. I am tired of hearing how eventing is killing horses. And for some to make statements like what are you doing to your horses? well thats just beyond the pale! :no:

[Teach]

Regarding aortic ruptures...

I posted this on deltawaves 'pulmonary pressure monitor' thread but thought it might be worth mentioning here as the subject is aortic aneurysms.

A few years ago, there was a study done that recommended renaming Degenerative Suspensory Ligament Desmitis (DSLD) as Equine Systemic Proteoglycan Accumulation (ESPA) as studies showed the causes of DSLD were not just limited to the suspensory ligaments but affected other parts of the body, including the aorta. (There's a sort report about it in this pdf newsletter (http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/0737-0806/PIIS0737080606004485.pdf) (it's on page 4), other sources are cited in the newsletter and IIRC available online.)

In human Marfan's, the aorta may leak and 'heal' at various intervals without creating a fatal rupture. I was wondering if this might be what's going on in horses. Perhaps the stress of XC in competition contributes to the final rupture.

Marfan's is a genetic mutation having to do with fibrillin in connective tissues. Although Marfan's is often undiagonosed, it has a long list of clinical signs which may or may not be present to varying degree and number. There are other human connective tissue disorders that affect vascular and arterial tissues, Marfan's is just one of them but I mention it because it's well-known and often results in a ruptured aorta.

Definitely something we should be looking at in event horses: is there a horse version of Marfan's?


I own a DSLD/ESPA horse right now--he was fine for years as a low-level dressage horse who occasionally would be jumped 2-2.5 feet or so, had some intermittent "back trouble" & what I initially thought was a 'mild suspensory pull', was on & off for a bit, then flared into full-blown DSLD showing in the hind legs & was diagnosed last fall. He is currently sound as a dollar & has been since December, although he shows the severe remodeling in the ankles & hocks typical of the disease. One of the things we have been told is that DSLD/ESPA is indeed quite similar to Marfan's, & that sudden aortic rupture is often seen in these horses (it's one of the reasons they emphasize that one should not ride them--if they rupture under saddle, they will collapse on the rider). On post-mortem, the disease's effect is usually seen in tissue THROUGHOUT the body, which (as you said) is why they proposed the name change in the first place. It is my understanding that the leak/heal/leak/heal cycle you describe above is exactly what goes on with these horses--I know that in ultrasounds, our guy's suspensory branches look like Swiss cheese--a network of healed tears & scars. Now obviously, you wouldn't be eventing on a dropped horse, but I must say that we had no clue that anything of that nature was wrong--our guy didn't even have particularly long pasterns prior to flaring up; he was being shown & was sound enough to be pinning in the top 4 pretty regularly. Since DSLD/ESPA is inherited, the vets feel that he was basically a 'ticking time-bomb', for lack of a better way to put it. I'm not sure if you could have the aortic effect as the first symptom in one of these horses, but maybe?? The dropped pasterns is the well-known symptom, but in hindsight, my guy, at least, clearly had a number of other symptoms before he ever dropped-I just didn't know that that's what the seemingly unrelated string of occurances were. It's been a steep learning curve.

[deltawave]

Actually I think it's pretty obvious that eventing/XC *is* a factor in these deaths. A horse doesn't bleed in its lungs except during exertion. Of course there could be 1 out of 10,000 horses (I'm guesstimating the number of animals registered with the USEA and interpolating there a little) dropping dead in their paddocks and we're just not hearing about it. That statistic, in fact, would be EXTREMELY helpful to have. Rotational falls, of course, ARE specifically jumping-related and mostly XC related, although no doubt timber racing and 'chasing claim their share. Again, I'd be VERY interested in the statistics there, too.

Gosh, this DSLD/ESPA stuff is FASCINATING.

[NMK]

If anyone would care to share the JC name/bloodlines of horses that have proven to carry this I would appreciate it. Thank you.

[Teach]

Well, my guy is an Iberian (Lusitano, AFAIK) x Quarter horse gelding, now 11 years old (was 10 when he dropped). The yahoo DSLD/ESPA list keeps a database of affected horses, but it tends to be heavy on the Peruvian Paso type horses, as I think it started out as a specifically Peruvian group. It does include at least 3 TBs, a Morgan, several QHs, and Arabs. FWIW, my vet initially poo-poo'd the idea of DSLD because Digg isn't Peruvian--she had understood it to be exclusively in those breeds (as HYPP to Quarter horses), but the research has proven that this is not the case. I am not sure than I'm allowed to pull names from their database--I'll try to find out.

Additionally, I personally know of a TB/Warmblood cross who is undiagnosed but whom I would bet my entire month's pay in cash is affected--I knew the horse through a friend who was their BO. They had been having 'back issues' & 'elusive lameness' issues, the horse had many many of the symptoms including tripping & falling on their teenage daughter at least once, & worse degradation in the pasterns than my own guy, but when I approached them & offered to put them in touch with my vet, I was informed that she was fine, just fine, they were NOT having her ultrasounded or diagnosed--they were just sending her to a sale to dump their problem on someone else (my paraphrase), which they subsequently did. :mad: So, she's out there somewhere in New England. :no:

[deltawave]

Alas, even when there are strong genetic links, a really high proportion of connective tissue disorders (Marfan, bicuspid valve, etc.) are due to spontaneous mutations and therefore not inherited except going forward. :( Or to put it another way, a person or horse who has a spontaneous mutation causing a problem like this would have NORMAL parents, but he/she could possibly pass the brand new genetic badness on to his/her offspring.

[JER]

Well, my guy is an Iberian (Lusitano, AFAIK) x Quarter horse gelding, now 11 years old (was 10 when he dropped). The yahoo DSLD/ESPA list keeps a database of affected horses, but it tends to be heavy on the Peruvian Paso type horses, as I think it started out as a specifically Peruvian group.

Perhaps it's because Pasos tend to have pronounced DSLD issues. Other breeds may not present the same typical sign of ESPA -- not unlike with Marfan's. AFAIK, it's been diagnosed in every major breed.

One of my horses died a strange death a few years ago. He was 23, it looked like mild colic but we weren't convinced. We did an autopsy out of curiosity and found an odd set of things. Vet and autopsy assistant were sure we were looking at something genetic but didn't know what. So I did some investigating into his family. Sire died of seemingly mild colic at same age but there was no autopsy done (it looked like colic so why go further?). Some of sire's other offspring died of similar symptoms. Again, everyone accepts that it's colic. I suspect most of them died from the same syndrome.

My point here is that we don't know a lot about these kinds of disorders in horses. When a horse dies in his late teens or 20s, we accept it and don't usually do necropsies. Teach referred to her horse as a 'time bomb' but in many horses, a time bomb that doesn't blow for 20 years is never going to be discovered. OTOH, if something is happening to younger horses, who shouldn't be dying yet, we'd be more likely to notice. In humans, if something is killing teenagers and early 20somethings, we'd definitely take notice but then we have a much longer life expectancy. 20 years is considered enough for a horse.

(My other point is that necropsies are important and keeping a database of results is also a worthwhile endeavour.)

[TampaBayEquine]

Actually I think it's pretty obvious that eventing/XC *is* a factor in these deaths. A horse doesn't bleed in its lungs except during exertion. Of course there could be 1 out of 10,000 horses (I'm guesstimating the number of animals registered with the USEA and interpolating there a little) dropping dead in their paddocks and we're just not hearing about it. That statistic, in fact, would be EXTREMELY helpful to have. Rotational falls, of course, ARE specifically jumping-related and mostly XC related, although no doubt timber racing and 'chasing claim their share. Again, I'd be VERY interested in the statistics there, too.

Gosh, this DSLD/ESPA stuff is FASCINATING.


Deltawave, I may be able to help you with some of the stats for steeplechasing injuries and wrecks.....I am not sure how detailed they will be. Can you PM me?

[J Swan]

deltawave -

Something has been bugging me about this sport for a long time - perhaps you might be interested or could keep these observations in mind as things progress.(I picked you because as far as I know - I am not on your ignore list!)

Please know that I am in no way condemning or criticizing individuals, and I've seen the same thing in other horse sports.

Much of the discussion on horse and rider safety has been centered around the design of the fences. How to make them safer. And it's a very worthy discussion.

However - what no course designer can anticipate is the ability of the horse and rider.

What I mean by that is this. Compare photos of today's rider to riders of 30 years ago. Compare the horses.

Very little in common.

Horses and riders of the past grew up foxhunting and galloping their ponies madly about. They grew up riding many many different horses - some galloped racehorses. Some brought their own horses along. Most foxhunted - which produced very different horses than the ones we see today.

(I'm generalizing; plenty of people still foxhunt or gallop their ponies madly about.)

Now - it's all about 'questions'. You school a question. You school a course. Few horses really learn how to scramble and be catty and quick - to save themselves - and to think. That is learned in the hunt field - really and truly it is.

The riders learned xc the same way. With their ponies - and later - their horses. Riding lots of different horses, in all sorts of weather and footing. If they were lucky - they got to exercise racehorses, or had other opportunities.

And of course - the military. The sport was created and developed by cavalrymen. Rigid disciplinarians. Excellent horsemen.

A while back there was a thread on what people do to condition their horses, and to stay in shape. Post after post - people complained that they simply didn't have the time to put more hours in the saddle, or they didn't have the money to both hunt and event, or the kids took too much time, etc.

(again, a generalization. Plenty of people keep themselves fit, their horses fit, and ride regularly) But what that thread told me was that maybe there are people out there who:

Don't really ride xc very well
Aren't very fit
Are frazzled because of obligations
Their horses school nothing but "questions"

And those people have a horse trial this weekend.


So we have a sport intended to be a complete test of horse and rider (even at the lower levels), designed to somewhat emulate the challenges and dangers of riding across country, invented by cavalrymen/soldiers, and only supposed to be ridden by people and horses that grew up foxhunting and galloping about madly; all around excellent horsemen.

And it's populated by people who fit riding into busy schedules, don't foxhunt or otherwise really ride across country, have to rely on a watch to feel pace (at NOVICE), have trouble finding decent instruction, and don't even have time to be physically fit themselves.

Add the short format, with its emphasis on dressage....


I think the riders and horses we see at ALL levels of the sport need to be looked at. Not just the ULR's. The scariest riding I've ever seen in my life has been at lower level horse trials.

I hope that any discussion of improvements to the sport includes thoughts on how we can help horses and riders can be the best they can be.

That doesn't mean 'in the ribbons'. It means good horsemanship. I was very saddened to learn that Pony Club is de -emphasizing foxhunting and now has two tracks - show jumping and dressage.

Those kids will grow up even further from eventing roots - and that does not bode well for the future of the sport - no matter how "safe" the jumps are.

[deltawave]

J Swan, I couldn't think of a thing I'd amend to your post to make me agree with it more. :) Of course it's not a list of solutions, nor is it simply a list of problems. But it's a darn good summary. I agree with every word.

When I think of the STUFF I used to do on the back of a horse! :eek: Not because I had exceptional abililty (I didn't) or exceptional courage (ditto) but it was just--natural. I have no doubt at all that this sort of natural feeling is extremely common among young riders, and can be channeled into amazing talent in some, amazing courage in others, and in rare individuals, BOTH.

But just feeling super comfortable winging around on the back of a horse isn't enough any more. Not when it isn't backed up with the HOURS AND HOURS in the saddle, the years of riding difficult horses, the "whole package" of horsemanship.

Someone else pointed this out on a thread some months ago--there was a profile in COTH of a young rider who was winning at the Intermediate or CCI** level on her made horse, and her comment on one of the courses was something like "I'd never ridden XC in the mud before, so I wasn't sure how it would go." I mean, WTF??? Yes, she's winning, but would I let MY kid go ride at that level just having skimmed the surface experience-wise? No effing way. :no:

[Kementari]

J Swan - VERY well said.

I was actually thinking a couple of months ago about the riders who say that they have nowhere to school xc, and so must use competitions for schooling. I don't question that there are some (many, even) parts of the country where there really is no realistic way to get schooling in, and that presents a huge challenge to the aspiring eventer. And, of course, we WANT people to event. Not only is it good for the sport to be more popular, but we all want people to share what we love.

But.

Maybe there are parts of the country where people just shouldn't be eventers (unless they are independently wealthy and can build their own course ;)). If you have no opportunity to school xc within a 6 hour drive, maybe it's time to either pick another sport or move to another area. And I don't mean that to be nasty - I truly mean that perhaps not everyone in every place has the right to event.

I know that is seriously irritating to those who are in that position. I know I would absolutely hate to be in an area where I couldn't event. But, well, you have to make choices in life, and those choices have consequences.

I bring that up now because I think it goes to J Swan's post: if you don't have time to condition or become a well-rounded horseperson, that doesn't make you a bad person. But maybe it means you simply shouldn't be trying to event. Or maybe you can (safely) event, but only up to a certain level, and no matter how much you want to go Training it simply isn't a goal you should pursue.

We want the sport to be open to everyone. And there are plenty of great horsemen and -women who live in the back of beyond and have fulltime jobs and families. And it sucks to say that the sport shouldn't be open to those people - but maybe it shouldn't be.

I don't have an answer, and in the end it does come back to rider responsibility (we certainly can't make a rule that in order to qualify you have to live within x number of miles of a schooling facility!). But I think it does bear thinking about.

[J Swan]

Thank you both for understanding what I was trying to say. I in no way mean offense to anyone.

To me - eventing is the perfect horse sport. Even at BN and Novice - it's just the best. I hope it's around in 100 years.

There are so many different factors in these incidents - that it's impossible (and irresponsible) to draw any conclusions yet. But since these tragedies, and their seemingly increasing number - are making people think - maybe we should think about the sport as a whole.

The ULR's come from somewhere - and each year they are younger. Any deficiencies in that riders education (and their horse) will have greater consequences as they progress through the levels.

So no matter at what level the team competes - we should be making sure that basic education is there. I'll rejoin the USEA if it will help. I'll volunteer to write grant proposals, or fundraise. I'll lick envelopes. I'll team up with a young rider out in the hunt field to learn the ropes. We have few to no young riders out hunting these days - ribbons from the show ring are more attractive. It's not just eventing that is noticing the lack of rider preparedness and ability.

Instructor certification might help (I know it already exists), teaming up with pony club or local hunts might help, mentoring might help, etc.

[La Gringa]

I think that things just need to be studied and compared to years past. If the format changes are causing this, then that needs to be addressed.

Safety must be number one, regardless of sponsorship, olympic hopes, and money involved.

The sport is a great one, but not at the expense of lives. Every step must be taken to make sure that the tests aren't too great for horses and riders that are prepared to do them, to complete safely.

We all know accidents happen in horse sports, but we must be responsible to minimize the risks as much as we can.

We all know that, and that's why there is so much discussion on this right now. Someone just needs to take action and start the train in motion ... to get the analysis and checks done.

:)

[J. Turner]

My experience with seeing traumatic aortic diseections in the OR with people is that they involve high speed motor vehicle accidents with sudden deceleration. The shearing forces are immense and involve the THORACIC aorta, not the abdominal, which was the case withTigger. Deltawave is right, we need to wait for final autopsy results, but I am willing to bet dollars to donuts there was a defect in Tiggers abdominal aorta, whether aneurysmal or some other connective tissue defect. I simply cannot imagine going from trot to canter for several strides and generating enough shearing force to tear an aorta in the abdomen? He would have at worst banged his chest, not his belly. Once again, before all the self-appointed judges,jurors and executioners of some very decent and hardworking people pass sentence, lets get the facts.

Any links to the anatomy and physiology of the different aortic branches? Or explanations?

[Sandy M]

I have no professional experience with racing horses, and I'm not an upper level competitor... but I DO know a human... even a very fit human... can absolutely die of a ruptured abdominal aortic aneurysm in a very short period of time right in front of you, and there's little you can do besides get them to surgery very quickly. Sometimes (in people) these things are caught early and can be fixed, but by the time they rupture you do not have much time at all, I've seen it happen in people of various ages and physical conditions. I only know about people... but it doesn't seem a far leap that the same thing could happen to a horse in short order.


A friends horse died from an aneurysm after a 30 min. walking trail ride. Put him in turn out, he ran to the end to greet his horsey friend, dropped dead.

Another friend's dressage horse - 15 years old, reasonably fit (1st level/2nd level) looked uncomfortable - very lame behind - took him to a clinic. He was there for a week. Tested for EPM, belly taps, etc. Dropped dead in his stall on the 5th day from an abdominal aortic aneurysm.

One quick, one slow - neither stressed.

[Lori B]

And Sandy, I doubt that any statistics are being tabulated when a horse dies this way -- no necropsies, etc. So the events 'disappear' and don't enter any larger body of veterinary knowledge, which leaves us unable to make intelligent assessments about these higher profile deaths, how common or uncommon they are across horses, across breeds, across age, activity, etc. It's not like horses get death certificates, right?

[annikak]

IThat doesn't mean 'in the ribbons'. It means good horsemanship. I was very saddened to learn that Pony Club is de -emphasizing foxhunting and now has two tracks - show jumping and dressage.

Those kids will grow up even further from eventing roots - and that does not bode well for the future of the sport - no matter how "safe" the jumps are.

nonononononononononono!!!!!!!!!!!

USPC HAS initiated the Show Jumping and Dressage ratings, but the Traditional rating, with the same things tested, still and always will exist. (some of us old folks did not like that much at all!)

USPC is very VERY aware that this is a serious issue, and is taking as many steps possible to insure that horsemanship does not die. It cannot. It will not if USPC has anything to do with it. So help me God....

There has been a push for an EVenting Rating, which has gotten a great deal of talk. With the current issues, there is a certain amount of "lets wait and see"

I am going to attach the next Presidents letter to this for those who want to read it (I think I can do that...). I assure you, USPC is taking this thing very seriously, and indeed feels exactly as you do. It has not been published yet, and final editing has not occurred- but wanted ya'll to see this.

anyone think this needs it's own thread?? we have steered far away from the topic....

[CBudFrggy]

J Swan - VERY well said.

I was actually thinking a couple of months ago about the riders who say that they have nowhere to school xc, and so must use competitions for schooling. I don't question that there are some (many, even) parts of the country where there really is no realistic way to get schooling in, and that presents a huge challenge to the aspiring eventer. And, of course, we WANT people to event. Not only is it good for the sport to be more popular, but we all want people to share what we love.

But.

Maybe there are parts of the country where people just shouldn't be eventers (unless they are independently wealthy and can build their own course ;)). If you have no opportunity to school xc within a 6 hour drive, maybe it's time to either pick another sport or move to another area. And I don't mean that to be nasty - I truly mean that perhaps not everyone in every place has the right to event.

I know that is seriously irritating to those who are in that position. I know I would absolutely hate to be in an area where I couldn't event. But, well, you have to make choices in life, and those choices have consequences.

I bring that up now because I think it goes to J Swan's post: if you don't have time to condition or become a well-rounded horseperson, that doesn't make you a bad person. But maybe it means you simply shouldn't be trying to event. Or maybe you can (safely) event, but only up to a certain level, and no matter how much you want to go Training it simply isn't a goal you should pursue.

We want the sport to be open to everyone. And there are plenty of great horsemen and -women who live in the back of beyond and have fulltime jobs and families. And it sucks to say that the sport shouldn't be open to those people - but maybe it shouldn't be.

I don't have an answer, and in the end it does come back to rider responsibility (we certainly can't make a rule that in order to qualify you have to live within x number of miles of a schooling facility!). But I think it does bear thinking about.

You're talking to me! But, guess what? I don't school questions either. I expect me and my horse to be well-rounded and fit. I trail ride, horse camp and ride him in the mud, the rain, etc. I jump every log and ditch we can find naturally. We school dressage weeknights and take jumping classes or field trips on weekends. We do hillwork and trot miles on local trails. I've even located a galloping track that I'm awaiting permission to use for gallop sets. And if we don't get permission, we'll just keep slogging along at the dump--I mean Vista View Park.

And I think we're just fine at Novice, where we'll hold the fort for a year before breaking through to training. I just think that if you use good, old-fashioned common sense (that isn't so common anymore) you CAN event safely at the Smurf levels and have fun. Isn't that being a responsible rider?

Yes, I hope to move closer to eventing venues in the next couple of years, but I'm on the back side of 45 and I'm not getting any younger. Neither is my horse.

What I love about eventing is it is the complete test. A reining trainer and I were discussing the realities of eventing. He was reminding me of our weaknesses and trying to tell me what to expect "at the show." I told him I thought it would be a lot like baseball. One day your pitching game is really great, one day your fielding game is really great, one day your batting is really great, and some days, it all just comes together. That's what I love about eventing. While I don't get to compete often--maybe only 2 times this year--its the planning, the schooling, the practicing, the wholeness of the 3 tests put all together in one trial on one weekend that mean, even at the lower levels, my horse is well-trained, and I'm a good horsewoman. That's why I love eventing and won't give it up. And that's why I'll do the best I can by my horse to be a responsible rider.

[Sandy M]

And Sandy, I doubt that any statistics are being tabulated when a horse dies this way -- no necropsies, etc. So the events 'disappear' and don't enter any larger body of veterinary knowledge, which leaves us unable to make intelligent assessments about these higher profile deaths, how common or uncommon they are across horses, across breeds, across age, activity, etc. It's not like horses get death certificates, right?


True, and relatively few people have necropsies done in situations like the first one I listed. That horse was necropsied because of insurance issues. The second, because he was at a vet clinic and they were so totally stymied about what was wrong with him. Most people would just accept that the horse is dead without finding out the "why."

My old horse, at 27, showed what appeared to be colic symptoms, then stood quietly, but was hyperventilating. He also passed manure, was NOT willing to eat any more, and appeared to be in great pain. He was treated for 12 hours. Finally collapsed, convulsed and died. Because the symptoms were strange, he was necropsied (no charge because vet simply wanted to know the "why.") The verdict: ruptured diaphragm (inoperable, even if diagnosed early), which left the vet even more puzzled, since he said that type of rupture required trauma on the level of being hit by a car and how an older horse (former eventer, by the way) in his own paddock could hurt himself that way but leave not an exterior mark on his body was a total mystery.

But... most people don't do necropsies, so we don't have the statistics re stress/no stress and the frequency/cause of these aortic ruptures/aneurysms, etc.

[J Swan]

Oh wonderful! I'm so very glad to learn of this. But again - I think we need to realize that this sport was invented by people and FOR people who grew up foxhunting. Hunting is an extraordinary education (part of an education) for any horseman. I'm glad they haven't gotten completely away from xc riding - but still - it used to be that Pony Club and foxhunting went hand in hand - and it produced excellent - and I mean excellent horsemen.

If you look at kids and young people today - they are not growing up learning to properly ride across country. When they get into eventing - it shows. And as they progress up the levels - mistakes are more costly.

But I'm very glad USPC hasn't completely given up on xc riding. Now - let's get those youngsters out riding to hounds and we'll have some kick ass future eventers. :)

On the matter of unexplained death - I've seen plenty. Horses that just drop dead; or look a bit odd for a few hours - owner calls vet, thinks the horse is colicing - then boom. Dead.
No necropsy - too expensive. I think it's not a real stretch to assert that for every horse we see dropping dead in competition - there are many more that are simply buried. It's one of the reasons that I don't get hysterical when I see a horse go down in competition (though it's shocking and I want answers just like anyone else)

nonononononononononono!!!!!!!!!!!

USPC HAS initiated the Show Jumping and Dressage ratings, but the Traditional rating, with the same things tested, still and always will exist. (some of us old folks did not like that much at all!)

USPC is very VERY aware that this is a serious issue, and is taking as many steps possible to insure that horsemanship does not die. It cannot. It will not if USPC has anything to do with it. So help me God....

There has been a push for an EVenting Rating, which has gotten a great deal of talk. With the current issues, there is a certain amount of "lets wait and see"

I am going to attach the next Presidents letter to this for those who want to read it (I think I can do that...). I assure you, USPC is taking this thing very seriously, and indeed feels exactly as you do. It has not been published yet, and final editing has not occurred- but wanted ya'll to see this.

anyone think this needs it's own thread?? we have steered far away from the topic....

[Ghazzu]

Any links to the anatomy and physiology of the different aortic branches? Or explanations?

Not sure what you're asking for here--you want the geography or histological structure for anatomy?

And what aspect of physiology?

Narrow it doen a bit and I'll try to oblige :cool:

[seeuatx]

Oh wonderful! I'm so very glad to learn of this. But again - I think we need to realize that this sport was invented by people and FOR people who grew up foxhunting. Hunting is an extraordinary education (part of an education) for any horseman. I'm glad they haven't gotten completely away from xc riding - but still - it used to be that Pony Club and foxhunting went hand in hand - and it produced excellent - and I mean excellent horsemen.

If you look at kids and young people today - they are not growing up learning to properly ride across country. When they get into eventing - it shows. And as they progress up the levels - mistakes are more costly.

But I'm very glad USPC hasn't completely given up on xc riding. Now - let's get those youngsters out riding to hounds and we'll have some kick ass future eventers. :)


I am so grateful to my PC background for getting me started on XC. Otherwise I never would have had opportunities, and the access to farms with XC courses. Never did get to foxhunt though :no:.

I like the idea of being able to specialize. Then riders do not feel pushed beyond comfort zones, or feel forced to sell a horse that can no longer jump (speaking from personal experience here). I knew a girl from another club that was schooling 4th level dressage... had the knowledge of a B or above, but she was a D2 because she did not want to jump higher than 2'. She ended up quitting because some in her club treated her like a black sheep, and she was rarely included in activities.

But I do understand your fears. Some (let me clarify again, SOME) clubs seem to be teaching only for the ratings. It seems that some want to be able to brag we have X number in the C and above ratings. I have no idea how they are surviving these ratings. A new student came to my barn from a PC facility... they had her jumping, she could barely post in balance.

Maybe PC is suffering from the Instant Gratification trend that exists in this day and age... I don't know. I hope it is just some clubs, and that the org as a whole can continue to produce fine examples of all around horsemanship.

[bosox]

If you look at kids and young people today - they are not growing up learning to properly ride across country. When they get into eventing - it shows. And as they progress up the levels - mistakes are more costly.

But I'm very glad USPC hasn't completely given up on xc riding. Now - let's get those youngsters out riding to hounds

Our PC and Hunt club have a wonderful partnership---but it makes me sad to post that we can't get our kids out hunting. My daughter started hunting when she was 8 and was quite able to handle first flight. She LOVED it. She begged me to go back.

Our hunt club offers FREE hunts to ALL Jrs several times a year. They don't go out (the kids) -cost is not the issue. All we have to do is send someone out w/the new kids so the hunt doesn't have a bunch of kids/ponies that they don't know. I am that adult--so that isn't the reason they don't go. The fixtures are close--so that can't be the reason. Our club is mostly event riders---so riding in the open isn't the reason they don't go.

This past January---it was terrible out. I think it was 20 degrees. I was so excited...there was no way my 5'4" daughter who weighs 70 lbs would want to go out (no meat on her bones means it is a cold day) Well---was I wrong. There wasn't any wind and she new the fixture...and said that it was a wonderful place to hunt on a cold day. She begged me to go....so we did. (we had gotten toe warmers in our stockings, so I didn't have any excuses left:no:)

My daughter begs at the Jr meetings for kids to go out with her. She teaches them at the Quiz meetings about hunting b/c she is the only one that goes. Both our current As, current B, and 2 current C3s grew up hunting and have joined my daughter a time or two b/c they know it is more fun if you hunt in groups.

HOW DO YOU GET THESE KIDS IN THE FIELD??? I don't understand why they don't want to go.

The kids can either start out w/me in a PC field...(which will be right behind the huntsman but has jumps that are 2'9" or less) or they can go hilltopping, 1st flight (if they have been out and we know they and beast can handle it) or they can go 2nd flight. We are even able to make a w/t group and pony kids if needed. We can handle anything......if they come.

[J Swan]

HOW DO YOU GET THESE KIDS IN THE FIELD??? I don't understand why they don't want to go.

The kids can either start out w/me in a PC field...(which will be right behind the huntsman but has jumps that are 2'9" or less) or they can go hilltopping, 1st flight (if they have been out and we know they and beast can handle it) or they can go 2nd flight. We are even able to make a w/t group and pony kids if needed. We can handle anything......if they come.

I don't know either. My niece has been out walking hounds with me since she was 3. But I don't know if she'll take up the sport.

Which is a shame. The kids (now young adults) I've seen are absolutely tremendous riders. Whether or not they were in Pony Club - they are just an absolute joy to watch. Anything the horse world can do to produce such riders would improve all levels of competition - no doubt.

[LLDM]

But again - I think we need to realize that this sport was invented by people and FOR people who grew up foxhunting.

No, it wasn't. It was invented to test the cavalry horse and the mounted officer.

Look, I do not disagree with everything you are saying. Not at all. But upper level eventing in no way, shape or form was designed as a gentleman's pastime.

In a time when horses (and riders) were cannon fodder, the early tests were quite brutal. Lower level eventing, from what I am reading, was designed to create upper level horse and rider teams - way after the fact, since cavalries were being disbanded.

Sorry, but I am getting very sensitive to the arguments about the "good old days" of eventing. The history is NOTHING to fall back too.

SCFarm

[Pixie Dust]

Times have changed all the way around. Parents are more paranoid about their kids being snatched up. Kids wear helmets now (and I'm not saying that is bad) for everything. Yeah, when I was growing up riding, we could jump anything on the farm (and I did) we stupidly jumped the split rail fencing. We took the horses swimming, we had races, we cowboyed around. Barns nowadays have pretty strict rules about jumping and stuff you are allowed to do. Some barns don't even allow jumping unless you are in a lesson. And I'm sure they have good reasons for those rules. I think it's just impossible to go back to the "good old days".

I still see no reason not to use events as schooling. That is what BN is for (for a lot of people). That's what "starter trials" are. Schooling. I wouldn't use a recognized event for schooling, maybe that is what some other people are talking about. Maybe I misunderstood.

ETA- Oh and the reason I even opened this thread. What is an abdomonal aortic rupture? Abdomen makes me think stomach and aorta makes me think heart.

[Waterwitch]

My experience with seeing traumatic aortic diseections in the OR with people is that they involve high speed motor vehicle accidents with sudden deceleration. The shearing forces are immense and involve the THORACIC aorta, not the abdominal, which was the case withTigger. Deltawave is right, we need to wait for final autopsy results, but I am willing to bet dollars to donuts there was a defect in Tiggers abdominal aorta, whether aneurysmal or some other connective tissue defect. I simply cannot imagine going from trot to canter for several strides and generating enough shearing force to tear an aorta in the abdomen? He would have at worst banged his chest, not his belly.

But what kind of shearing force does the acceleration/sudden deceleration of the several hundred pounds of largely freely moveable gastrointestinal tract within the abdomen generate? I would think a lot. Wonder if this could be a factor when combined with a pre-existing defect.

[ButterflyIris]

Has anyone factored in that this horse had three colic surgeries? (from what I recall, please don't throw bottles). But I do recall that he had major problems with colic addressed with surgery.
Could that not have weakened some of his abdominal anatomy? (sort of a retorical question because of course that must have weakened his abdomin, but to what extent?)
Poor horse, but maybe this might have happened to him standing in a stall as well?
I am tending to think that he probably maxed out his resilience on course.

[Lori B]

Iris, in an earlier post, same question was asked, and it was the considered opinion of Deltawave (a cardiologist, I believe) that the colic surgeries were unlikely to be related to Tigger Too's abdominal aortic rupture.

[deltawave]

Unlikely, but not impossible. Virtually EVERYTHING is possible with bodies. :) Which is precisely why we need MORE DATA on this type of catastrophe!

But what kind of shearing force does the acceleration/sudden deceleration of the several hundred pounds of largely freely moveable gastrointestinal tract within the abdomen generate? I would think a lot. Wonder if this could be a factor when combined with a pre-existing defect.

It might indeed, but again, NO DATA. Certainly horses can rupture their aortas just galloping, and in many many cases (High Scope is one example, Boucane is another) the jump had nothing to do with the catastrophe, it just happened that the horse fell AT or NEAR or AFTER a jump because of what had been going on inside previous to the jump.

As I said somewhere else on this thread, unless horses are completely different on the inside (and I had a minor in comparative anatomy so I know they're really not, on this level) the most likely area for the aorta to tear from pure deceleration is in the chest, at the ligamentum arteriosum.

[Kementari]

No, it wasn't. It was invented to test the cavalry horse and the mounted officer.

Look, I do not disagree with everything you are saying. Not at all. But upper level eventing in no way, shape or form was designed as a gentleman's pastime.

In a time when horses (and riders) were cannon fodder, the early tests were quite brutal. Lower level eventing, from what I am reading, was designed to create upper level horse and rider teams - way after the fact, since cavalries were being disbanded.

Sorry, but I am getting very sensitive to the arguments about the "good old days" of eventing. The history is NOTHING to fall back too.

SCFarm

But most cavalry officers were gentlemen (you didn't just get to be an officer in those days by going to school ;)), and given that had probably grown up fox hunting. Thus, though eventing did not grow out of fox hunting, it was certainly invented by people who grew up hunting, for people who grew up hunting.

Though I do agree that the good ol' days aren't exactly something we should try to emulate in every way... :eek:

[Kementari]

ETA- Oh and the reason I even opened this thread. What is an abdomonal aortic rupture? Abdomen makes me think stomach and aorta makes me think heart.

The aorta is the artery that brings blood from the heart, through the chest and abdomen. It essentially provides the major blood supply to the body (and all the smaller arterial vessels branch off of it). I'm not a vet or doctor, so that's the simplified version from my anatomy classes in college. ;)

I can't find a good image of a horse, but here's what it looks like in a human: http://www.tommyroshek.com/log/archive/2004_07_01_archive.html

[Waterwitch]

unless horses are completely different on the inside (and I had a minor in comparative anatomy so I know they're really not, on this level)

I guess my point is that the cardiovascular system does not exist in a vaccuum and so we have to consider the functional anatomical and physiological differences between species. The physics and interaction between organs that occur in the galloping horse are probably vastly different from those that occur in a running human - given that the horse is a quadruped - and so the directional forces and interactions between the cardiovascular architecture and other structures may be different from a biped (the human).

An example of a functional difference between humans and horses, despite a "grossly comparable" cardiopulmonary system, is that the gastrointestinal mass and abdominal organs have a huge effect on respiration in the galloping horse due to the orientation of the body and the horizontal acceleration of the gait which results in the large gastrointestinal mass slamming up against the diaphragm every stride.

Definitely interesting to think about and I will be very interested to read more about what comes out of this investigation.

[LLDM]

But most cavalry officers were gentlemen (you didn't just get to be an officer in those days by going to school ;)), and given that had probably grown up fox hunting. Thus, though eventing did not grow out of fox hunting, it was certainly invented by people who grew up hunting, for people who grew up hunting.

Though I do agree that the good ol' days aren't exactly something we should try to emulate in every way... :eek:

Um, no. You're thinking too far back. Civil War far back. Fast forward 50 years from that. The first thing that looked remotely like modern day eventing was the Stockholm 1912 Olympics. WWI had created a whole lot of Cavalry that was no long "gentry" by then. Many officers got to be officers by surviving long enough. Not because they came with a horse, as in earlier conflicts.

This was also in the Ft. Riley era over here. Many/most recruits had never seen a horse before they got to cavalry school. The soldiers and the horses were pretty much all started from scratch. If you were monied and/or gentrified by then you went to officer candidate school, which had little to do any more with the regular cavalry training. Eventually they did meet up again (i.e. Teddy at San Juan Hill). But the Cav training (in Texas) and the officer training (east coast) were on very different tracks by then.

Regardless of what was going on here - Europe was where most of the development was happening. The FEI was founded in 1921 and was part of the transition from a military test to a civilian sport. As much as everyone over here likes to "dis" them, if you look at it, the FEI has lived through the most brutal, deadly competitions eventing has had. Things that make what is happening today seem quite tame. That the FEI is "desperate" to make eventing safe surprises me not one bit. Frankly, they have fought harder for eventing than we had any right to expect, considering the brutal history of it - which they lived through.

Not that it matters - I'm just sayin'. Last thing I want to do here is repeat the past.

SCFarm

[Waterwitch]

Has anyone factored in that this horse had three colic surgeries? (from what I recall, please don't throw bottles). But I do recall that he had major problems with colic addressed with surgery.
Could that not have weakened some of his abdominal anatomy? (sort of a retorical question because of course that must have weakened his abdomin, but to what extent?)
Poor horse, but maybe this might have happened to him standing in a stall as well?
I am tending to think that he probably maxed out his resilience on course.

Intraabdominal adhesions (which he was pretty likely to have after three major abdominal surgeries) are the only possibility I can think of, but I would think even an adhesion directly to the aorta (which is probably pretty unlikely) would break before the integrity of the aortic wall was compromised.

[LLDM]

Intraabdominal adhesions (which he was pretty likely to have after three major abdominal surgeries) are the only possibility I can think of, but I would think even an adhesion directly to the aorta (which is probably pretty unlikely) would break before the integrity of the aortic wall was compromised.

I can tell you from very painful first hand experience that intraabdominal adhesions either heal or deteriorate. And they are quite painful.

As you mentioned earlier, the mobility of the gastrointestinal mass would play a significant role - esp. on any adhesions present. IME - it would be impossible for a horse to train for a 4* if that were the case.

Unfortunately, my education on this subject came directly from one of Royal Kaliber's vets - to the same outcome.

SCFarm

[Kementari]

LLDM - While that's not quite how I had understood it, I am not a military historian so I will your word for it (since it certainly seems you have studied the subject more than I!). :yes:

Regardless, we are in agreement on the subject of the "good" ol' days...

[deltawave]

One can also speculate, of course, if there is/was any connection between the colics and some sort of unknown pre-existing vascular disorder. Cannot arterial insufficiency cause colic? As to adhesions, they can form, but they do not always form, and they are not always problematic when they do. Many horses have competed at the upper levels of many disciplines after colic surgeries, even multiple colic surgeries. Wasn't Big Ben one of them?

In people you can retrieve old medical records, surgical reports, etc. relatively easily. Not sure this is the case with horses!

Of course it would be a huge violation of privacy rights to even remotely discuss a human in this fashion, and frankly it gives me the creeps to even do it about a horse. My apologies to the connections of Tigger and all the lost animals for speculating like this. :( But it is done with the best of intentions. We know way too little about how these horses are dying, and part of the "cure" is going to be information.

[Ghazzu]

Just so people know what we're talking about here, the attached (I hope) diagram shows the location of the aorta at the level of L-2.
It and the vena cava are circled in neon green. (#9)

[J Swan]

Of course it would be a huge violation of privacy rights to even remotely discuss a human in this fashion, and frankly it gives me the creeps to even do it about a horse. My apologies to the connections of Tigger and all the lost animals for speculating like this. :( But it is done with the best of intentions. We know way too little about how these horses are dying, and part of the "cure" is going to be information.

I appreciate and respect your concern about privacy - and yet I am immensely grateful that this BB has folks that can help educate horseowners.

Being horribly ignorant on such things, but always eager to learn, I'd like to thank all of y'all that are taking the time to teach.

And I'm very much looking forward to the advances in veterinary medicine that comes out of all this.

[Whistlejacket]

Does anyone know whether equine necropsies routinely include extensive tissue sampling with subsequent microscopic evaluation of the actual site of the aortic rupture? Such an evaluation would permit an assessment of whether or not there was a pre-existing tissue "defect" at the site of the rupture. While the physical evaluation of the organs in a necropsy provides information as to what happened (in this case, rupture of the aorta), it does not provide complete information as to why it happened. The microscopic exam is crucial for getting at the latter.

Seems like the implications would be different if there was a pre-existing tissue defect vs whether there was not. Also, if there was a pre-existing tissue defect, one of the next questions would be to try to determine whether it was due to a congenital / metabolic disorder (e.g. a connective tissue disease) vs acquired (e.g. age-related or maybe even training related).

[Janet]

Um, no. You're thinking too far back. Civil War far back. Fast forward 50 years from that. The first thing that looked remotely like modern day eventing was the Stockholm 1912 Olympics. WWI had created a whole lot of Cavalry that was no long "gentry" by then. Many officers got to be officers by surviving long enough. Not because they came with a horse, as in earlier conflicts. VERY advanced cavalry officers, able to time travel back from the end of WWI to 1912! :D

[Bensmom]

Does anyone know whether equine necropsies routinely include extensive tissue sampling with subsequent microscopic evaluation of the actual site of the aortic rupture? Such an evaluation would permit an assessment of whether or not there was a pre-existing tissue "defect" at the site of the rupture. While the physical evaluation of the organs in a necropsy provides information as to what happened (in this case, rupture of the aorta), it does not provide complete information as to why it happened. The microscopic exam is crucial for getting at the latter.

Seems like the implications would be different if there was a pre-existing tissue defect vs whether there was not. Also, if there was a pre-existing tissue defect, one of the next questions would be to try to determine whether it was due to a congenital / metabolic disorder (e.g. a connective tissue disease) vs acquired (e.g. age-related or maybe even training related).

I can no longer remember which thread I have posted which info on, but the answer to your question is yes. We have already seen the published info on the prelim necropsy, and then probably 3 to 4 weeks later, the final report is published, complete with the histology.

The pathologist has enough experience reading slides to be able to tell a great deal from the examination of the tissue. So, the final reports may answer some of these questions.

Does that help?

libby

[Carol Ames]

Since so many of these fatalities appear to to have been th eresult of veterinary issues uhould not a vet address the veterinary issues?? possibly in the COTH?

[Ghazzu]

Does anyone know whether equine necropsies routinely include extensive tissue sampling with subsequent microscopic evaluation of the actual site of the aortic rupture? Such an evaluation would permit an assessment of whether or not there was a pre-existing tissue "defect" at the site of the rupture. While the physical evaluation of the organs in a necropsy provides information as to what happened (in this case, rupture of the aorta), it does not provide complete information as to why it happened. The microscopic exam is crucial for getting at the latter.

Seems like the implications would be different if there was a pre-existing tissue defect vs whether there was not. Also, if there was a pre-existing tissue defect, one of the next questions would be to try to determine whether it was due to a congenital / metabolic disorder (e.g. a connective tissue disease) vs acquired (e.g. age-related or maybe even training related).

I would expect that any necropsy performed by a pathologist would definitely include samples for histopath.
A field necropsy might well not.

[J Swan]

Since so many of these fatalities appear to to have been th eresult of veterinary issues uhould not a vet address the veterinary issues?? possibly in the COTH?

Carol - you know - I bet you could call and ask Molly if they're planning to or interested in an article on it. These are conditions that can affect horses across disciplines - so I think it might be an excellent subject for that magazine.

And it would be nice if other horse publications did the same thing - if nothing else to help dispel some of the rumors and misinformation that seems to be flitting about. There's always more to learn.

Good idea!

[CanadianGolden]

It is possible to OVERCONDITION the heart muscle. Human marathoners have died as a result of this sort of stress. So are the horses too fit, or not fit enough? Or are these freak accidents or a result of pre-existing conditions? My guess is one of the latter.

[deltawave]

Hang on there. Sudden death is certainly described in marathon runners, but the incidence compared to the general population is VERY, VERY low. And virtually all of these unfortunate runners have plain old, garden variety coronary disease (which again, horses do NOT get) and have plain old, garden variety MIs. Yes, rare exceptions occur (myocarditis, unexplained, etc.) but this is an apples and oranges comparison, really. Heart muscle problems are not implicated in ANY of these horse deaths. Heart is not aorta is not lungs.

Compared to other organs, the heart is extremely tough, forgiving, and capable of withstanding enormous "exertional" abuse. Provided it's normal to begin with and reasonably well cared for. :)

[J Swan]

I can't find this information - perhaps you or Ghazzu have it.

Does anyone have a handle on how many horses - either nationally or internationally - reportedly suffer from this condition? I know we see a horse just keel over on tv. And I know plenty of horses are just found dead in a field. But there has to be some numbers out there - at least to give horse owners an idea of how often this occurs?

Same thing with EIPH. I see some numbers scattered here and there - but nothing that helps me understand how common this condition is in the general population.

Thanks. Sorry if it's been posted already and I missed it.

[Ghazzu]

I can't find this information - perhaps you or Ghazzu have it.

Does anyone have a handle on how many horses - either nationally or internationally - reportedly suffer from this condition? I know we see a horse just keel over on tv. And I know plenty of horses are just found dead in a field. But there has to be some numbers out there - at least to give horse owners an idea of how often this occurs?

Same thing with EIPH. I see some numbers scattered here and there - but nothing that helps me understand how common this condition is in the general population.

Thanks. Sorry if it's been posted already and I missed it.

I doubt there are any meaningful statistics on acute rupture of major vessels outside of competition settings. Too many horses who die suddenly are not necropsied.

As for the prevalence of EIPH, any horse who runs fast enough or long enough bleeds.

[AW]

Sandy M, check your PMs!

[J Swan]

I doubt there are any meaningful statistics on acute rupture of major vessels outside of competition settings. Too many horses who die suddenly are not necropsied.

As for the prevalence of EIPH, any horse who runs fast enough or long enough bleeds.

Thanks - I figured that was the answer but was not sure. I'm not sure what "fast enough or long enough" means, though. The horses that I'm around (during the season) do not appear to suffer from this condition (at least not visibly) And at the height of the season - we're out there for 4 hours - sometimes on some godawful long runs. In some hunts - TB's predominate. In others, you see a greater mix of breeds - many crosses.

Perhaps checks are what makes the difference? (Check is a kind of rest period if hounds have lost or for other reasons) - we'll just have to stand there - maybe for 5 minutes - maybe for 1/2 hour.

So - perhaps that could be likened to the 10 minute box? I dunno if a few checks is enough to prevent EIPH or mitigate it. But some days - there are no checks - or maybe just one for a couple of minutes.

I do know that generally, field hunters seem to be managed differently than most horses in the general population (competition population). (not saying it's better or worse or that one sport is better/worse than the other!)

It's just something I've noticed and wondered about.

[bosox]

Did Froddo have a necropsy? It seems as if on other threads people are pointing to rider error. Why did he have one--if they think it was rider error. Why didn't he have one, even if they think it was rider error...

the jump had nothing to do with the catastrophe, it just happened that the horse fell AT or NEAR or AFTER a jump because of what had been going on inside previous to the jump.


I respectfully disagree. I believe that there is a pattern to these so called random events. Too many--in too short of a time. If we don't LOOK for the pattern...we may be walking down the path that will lead us to another dead horse/injured rider.

[Ghazzu]

Thanks - I figured that was the answer but was not sure. I'm not sure what "fast enough or long enough" means, though. The horses that I'm around (during the season) do not appear to suffer from this condition (at least not visibly)

"Visibly" is the key word here.
Until the advent of fiberoptics and thus the flexible endoscope, the only horses recognized to suffer from pulmonary hemorrhage during exercise were those who bled enough to have an obvious nosebleed.

Now it can be observed in lesser amounts within the airways, or a bronchoalveolar lavage can reveal macrophages containing hemosiderin, which is an indicator of previous hemorrhage.

It's more a question of how much vs yes or no when it comes to EIPH.

Of course, the cause(s) are still not definitively settled. There are several theories with good data to back them up, and it seems there are likely multiple contributing factors.

Here's a study that shows some:

Equine Vet J. 2005 Sep;37(5):402-11

Risk factors for epistaxis on British racecourses: evidence for locomotory impact-induced trauma contributing to the aetiology of exercise-induced pulmonary haemorrhage.


Risk of epistaxis was significantly increased for hurdle and steeplechase race types compared to both flat and National Hunt flat races. In 3 of the 4 final models, there was a significant biological trend for increasing risk of epistaxis with increasing ground hardness ('going') and accumulated years spent racing.

Not sure about duration of exercise, as barrel racers bleed. But then, they're booking it...

[J Swan]

Ghazzu - thank you very much for that information. I never thought to consider the hardness of the ground.

[Lori B]

I wonder if the nice folks who do endurance riding have any insight / experience / etc. w/ these potentially exertion related conditions? I know they aren't for the most part galloping, but maybe they have something to add to this inquiry, veterinary experience and insight wise. ????

[J Swan]

I know there was an article in a recent issue of COTH - the details escape me but it was kinda about horse welfare/health and vet issues.

I think gothedistance, who posts on this BB - might be a good person to PM or email. I have not seen her post lately -but she may be busy competing. She's a good egg.

[Waterwitch]

Of course, the cause(s) are still not definitively settled. There are several theories with good data to back them up, and it seems there are likely multiple contributing factors.

Here's a study that shows some:

Equine Vet J. 2005 Sep;37(5):402-11

Risk factors for epistaxis on British racecourses: evidence for locomotory impact-induced trauma contributing to the aetiology of exercise-induced pulmonary haemorrhage.


Thanks for that Ghazzu - definitely makes for some interesting reading.

[Bensmom]

LoriB -- I do both sports, and am working on a project that will help us learn more, I hope! I'm assembling some experts from both sports to see what we can learn! :)

Libby

[JER]

In case anyone here is interested in equine exercise physiology, this book gives a good overview: Equine Exercise Physiology: The Science of Exercise in the Athletic Horse (Hinchcliff, Geor and Kaneps, eds.) (http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/bookdescription.cws_home/714065/description#description)

Info is recent (it was published in 2007) and the book covers the various systems of the horse quite thoroughly. There's a whole chapter on the cardiovascular system.

[Lori B]

Thanks, both Bensmom & JER.

[deltawave]

I was referring to Boucane and High Scope, both of whom died quite a few years ago now, in whom the mortal event happened very, very clearly before a jump and the horse got to the jump and fell. The jumps had NOTHING to do with the deaths of those two horses.

As to Frodo, if you saw the video, you'd have no doubt that it was a case of coming in WAAAY too fast and the horse just not seeing the jump. At all. He was ears-up and galloping very strongly, showing no signs of distress whatsoever. At least that's what I saw.