Another horse dead!! at Jersey Fresh??

[Guyot]

One of my students is volunteering today at Jersey Fresh.....she just sent me a text about a horse flipping and that it died.... can't get anymore info, she hasn't responded back yet. Don't know which horse or rider or even if rider is okay.... If anyone knows anything please post! So sad....

Have to say it was nice to be at Badminton...no real problems....happy I missed the US line up of big events this spring. :cry:

[RunForIt]

Please - everyone - make sure. Then, please post what happened. No rumors. Please let this be wrong.

[austin]

Please.

[DLee]

Please let this be wrong.

Yes, please. :(

[canterlope]

Tigger Too suffered a heart attack and died while approaching fence 28 on the CCI3* course at Jersey Fresh. Lauren was unhurt.

[RunForIt]

Tigger Too suffered a heart attack while approaching fence 28 on the CCI3* course at Jersey Fresh.

one of my all time favorites...RIP Tigger. This is too sad.

[asterix]

oh god.

[Tuckertoo]

Crap! Are you sure?

[FlightCheck]

Nothing to confirm - I have heard UNOFFICIALLY that Karen fell off of Allstar and that Tigger and Lauren had a fall, but that is all I know.

[canterlope]

Crap! Are you sure?Unfortunately, yes.

[Guyot]

My student said that it was Leslie Law who fell and his horse Fleeceworks was taken off the course..... she was unsure of injuries, just hearing over the jump judges microphones.... If I hear anything concrete will post back.

So sorry to hear about Tigger, thoughts and prayers...

[Lori T]

Oh my God. How tragic. I am so sorry for all involved.

[CookiePony]

I was a fan of Tigger Too as well, after reading in EQUUS about his miraculous recovery from three (??!) colic surgeries in the past. He sounded like he was one in a million.

RIP, Tigger. :cry:

[sm]

I saw DOC competing Tigger a couple years ago at a Movern Park dressage show... so sweet.

RIP Tigger. As to what's going on in general, I have no words that adequately describe.

[pwynnnorman]

Oh, no! Sweet horse, sweet rider. Any word on the fallen riders? RIP Tigger. It was so neat to watch him at one ICP Instructor's Symposium--Mr. Steady Eddy, figuring out stuff and always so attentive to his rider's wishes. That was some nice horse. Oh, blast. Blast it all.:cry: And he had had such a lovely dressage test at JF, too. :cry:

[Carol Ames]

is the th eNJhP built on the site of an old Indian :cry:masacre?or some equally unfortunate:( occurrence?

[TB or not TB?]

Oh man I'm going to be sick.

MAJOR jingles to everyone out there today. :cry:

[Carol Ames]

at least a heart attack could happen at anytime :eek: and is not the result of course design or rider error;:no: of course we and his connections ask 'why?"

[pwynnnorman]

What if it is something environmental? I think he's the sixth horse in three months or so that I've heard having cardiopulmonary issues (if that's the correct word). Two are still alive, but it makes you wonder. What if it's a feed supplement or something, something having an impact the stability of tissue in blood vessel walls or something like that? Surely, surely this can't be just a series of coincidences?

[pinkdiamondracing]

:(AWWW Sh*t!! Not another one!!! I for one would really like to get through ONE entire weekend event without hearing about a horse dying, or someone being hurt!!

[pwynnnorman]

But everything went fine at The Fork--both weekends! And Badminton, too.

Does anyone know if ALL the horses known publicly to have had pulmonary-cadiac issues on course spent time in Florida?

[Steif]

It's funnyyoushould mentions that, as I just received an email that Purina has had something like 12-14 types of feed recalled and the recall was only sent to the dealers.
I will look at this email again with more detail.

[Bensmom]

:( Tigger. Like Wynn, I thought he was one of the sweetest guys ever. :( One of my favorite UL horses.

My sympathies to all of his connections and our world will be a diminished and a bit dimmer with him not in it. :(

Godspeed Tigger,

Libby

[Steif]

Sorry, I just got a new computer and I'm not used to the keyboard.


PURINA RECALLS HORSEFEEDS
> I think it is important for all horse owners to know that Purina has
> issued two massive recalls this month affecting almost their entire horse
> feed product line. This recall was not made available to the general
> public. Notices went to the dealers directly. It is unconscionable that
> they have made no effort contact the end users. On 4/9 they recalled 27
> equine products, including senior and the platformline. On 4/21 they
> recalled another 18 products. The problem is Aflatoxins. Aflatoxins are
> toxic and one of the most carcinogenic substances known. They can cause
> liver disfunction, immune suppression, and neurological difficulties.
> Please share this information with your horse keepingfriends. It seems
> that the only way this information is going to get out, is among
> ourselves.
Google these words and get a lot of web traffic on the subject; 'Purina
Horse feed recall 2008'.
Apparently it is not an announced recall but if you call the Purina
Number you get the info, like lots of people have done, including this
One below.
<http://WWW.miniatur ehorsetalk. Com/index. Php?showtopic= 92201>
http://www.miniatur ehorsetalk. Com/index. Php?showtopic= 92201

[JAR506]

Does anyone know how old Tigger Too was? I know that David rode him at Burghley in 2003, so he must have been slightly older.

[Acertainsmile]

My sincere condolances are offered...very tragic... but I do have a thought.

This was the 28th fence...did I read that right? I would have to guess that this horse was pushed beyond his limits on this particular day.

[piaffeprincess98]

Does anyone know how old Tigger Too was? I know that David rode him at Burghley in 2003, so he must have been slightly older.

I saw on an official list he was 17. It was pretty scary, I was at the fence. It was a skinny w/ a lighthouse tower. He jumped the fence but kind of hung a knee and landed on his shoulder and what looked like the rider's leg. He struggled to get up once and she couldn't get out from under him. Then he stopped struggling, but was still breathing. People were yelling "Sedate him" and that's when the tarps went up. I could see through a crack that he was still and lying down when they pt him on the trailer. They had to try to protect the rider's head from his hooves. That's all I know, but it was scary

[Jaegermonster]

But everything went fine at The Fork--both weekends! And Badminton, too.

Does anyone know if ALL the horses known publicly to have had pulmonary-cadiac issues on course spent time in Florida?

we got that email this week too and there was a list of states that Purina feed from the mills in question went to. None of it went to FL, and there were also lot numbers provided for people to check their bags if they wanted.

[pwynnnorman]

But what if it is something similar to Purina's problem, but with another feed? Or something sprayed on the hay? Or in some popular supplement? They just don't do the same kind of testing of feed-grade products as they do with food-grade, right? What if???? I know of two horses from the same barn with the same/similar problem.

Who said it was the 28th fence? How do you know? Do you know how Karen and Lauren are doing?

[kschling]

I was there, I did not see exactly what happened, (I saw him in the back field a fence before the water), but according to the folks I spoke with that did see what happened, he flipped at the fence before the water, the skinny lighthouse.
He landed on Lauren and she was pinned for a while. It was my understanding that he fractured his neck and was euthanized. They had to flip him off of her; people believe that she has a fractured leg.
I did not hear of any heart attack, unless he suffered the heart attack in the middle of negotiating the fence, and this is what caused the flip.

I was amazed at the speed in which they put the tarps up, and removed the horse. So maybe he did suffer a heart attack and was dead immediately. There was only a 20 min hold on course.

[Carol Ames]

P WYNN, As i have learned through my own personal health cardiopulmonary issues ,stress , especially cumulative stress can cause plaque to break off and cause clots:eek: you do have a point though about examining the supplements; and feeds:yes:

[Carol Ames]

D understand correctly that he landed on Lauren:eek:, and yet she is still alive? :)

[Equibrit]

It would be more likely that it is related to training now that roads and tracks are no longer included?

[kookicat]

How awful. Too sad to loose another one. :( Jingles to all of his people.

[JER]

It would be more likely that it is related to training now that roads and tracks are no longer included?

Maybe. Like pwynn noted, there were no horse deaths or serious injuries last week at Badminton but I was shocked by the number of Badminton horses who were exhausted at 2/3 or 3/4 of the way round the course. And I mean exhausted, no gas in the tank at all, horse breaking into trot repeatedly. If you want to see this on video, go to the Badminton site and watch the two German riders, both named Andreas (they're listed alphabetically by first name in the video index) and both very experienced. Or watch Oli Townend's rides. Or Zara Phillips on Glenbuck. These were totally knackered horses.

As it wasn't boggy or baking hot or unseasonably humid, I don't know what else to attribute it to besides poor preparation. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to bring a horse to Badminton if it hits the wall at the ten and a half minute mark.

I noticed some very unfit riders as well. You'd think a 4* level rider could hold a proper seat (and I mean any good seat, not just a two-point) for the length of the XC course but some of these people were seriously loose in the tack and flopping around on the horse's back which would also contribute to the horse's tiredness.

[Eventrgrl]

I saw the fall and to be completely honest it is suprising that there is mention of a heart attack being related in the fall- is this what they believed caused the flip or happened as a result?

The incident was horrible, Tigger broke to a trot around the turn and Lauren urged him on to pick up a canter and jump- they left the ground with very little impulsion for the size of the fence. I was expecting Tigger to stop but he really tried for Lauren. What happened after was agonizing, but in the end we unfortunately lost Tigger Too today and Lauren's leg[s] were injured.

Please, everyone, jingle for the O'Connors, and especially Lauren. We lost a very talented animal today who tried his heart out to the very end.

[Carol Ames]

I know from experiencing the aftermath of friends' horse dieing :cry:at rolex some years ago; though it was reported erroneously that he had run headlong into a fence and died,:no: an MD whose wife happened to be jump judging the fence and saw the horse approaching the fence as well as collapsing;and who wrote the rider to tell him that the horse died well before the fence
'and did did not die from injuries incurred from running into :no:the fence as reported Much the same thing happened at the Radnor bank the the year a horse died at Radnor on the bank; it can oftenbe difficult to tell exactly what the cause of death or f was unless the horse is"posted " , autopsied which, events are encouraged to have done as a matter of course:yes:

[Caroline Weber]

It's a miracle Lauren wasn't injured more severely - when Tigger fell he pinned her underneath him and was flailing his legs quite a bit trying to get up. As I understand it he was tranquilized so that they could roll him off of her and then a decision was made to euthanize him - I'm not sure what specific injuries he sustained. What I heard from the other volunteers who were helping keep spectators away was that she had a possibly broken leg and that she had been kicked in the head but that her helmet had caught the blow. I am keeping my fingers crossed for her.

Karen walked Allstar off the course after she fell, which was at fence 3 if I remember correctly. No major injuries there, maybe a few scrapes.

[Vegas Sky]

What the HELL is happening?! Another horse dead, the best rider in our country falls...you can't tell me these things aren't unrelated. The rule changes aren't enough.

Personally, I think it's a conditioning/course designing thing...maybe we should have mandatory conditioning tests before you can show CCI/CIC...but that's for a different thread.

So sad for Tigger Too. He was a good boy. Jingles for Lauren, I hope her injuries are minimal. Glad that Karen is okay.

[Stay Gold]

My thoughts are with Lauren and everyone at OCET. I had the pleasure of meeting her (and Tigger) this spring in FL, and I hope she recovers quickly.

What a horrible loss for all involved.

Tigger - you have lots of good company over the rainbow bridge.

[closetoperfectionfarm]

UNREAL, has anyone heard how Leslie Law is and is his wonderful horse Fleeceworks MDV ok?Poor Lauren, I am so sorry for her.

[Honorary Blond]

I think one of the questions we have to ask ourselves, in the wake of these mutliple, awful accidents, is what is different this year than last year that we are seeing so many equine and human deaths? I highly doubt that UL trainers change their conditioning/training program from year to year although I do think that the absense of the long format has had significant consequences in several areas. One of my thoughts is....could it be that because it is an Olympics year that UL riders are pushing their horses -and themselves- beyond their ability limit in order to get noticed by the USEF selection committe? And could their determination be compounded by course designers who, aware of the presence of the selection committee, build more challenging courses than usual so as to test the riders in an effort to help the committee people "see" who is up to par and who isn't? It's just an idea but I think it's very suspicious that all of these accidents are happening, pretty much one after the other, during an Olympics Selection year (and sadle this does not make our country look very strong going into the Summer games, although that is the least of our worries at the moment)

[canterlope]

According to the email sent out by Jo Whitehouse, CEO of the USEA, the preliminary diagnosis was that Tigger Too suffered a heart attack which led to his fall. No further updates have been released.

[Snapdragon]

Closetoperfection, the results show that Leslie had a stop on XC but finished, so I think the orig post about him was not correct. Which I'm very happy about. Sorry to hear about Tigger and Lauren.

[Carol Ames]

:yes:could it be that because it is an Olympics year that UL riders are pushing their horses -and themselves- beyond their ability limit in order to get noticed by the USEF selection committe? And could their determination be compounded by course designers who, aware of the presence of the selection committee, build more challenging courses than usual so as to test the riders in an effort to help the committee people "see" who is up to par and who isn't

[Stay Gold]

I think one of the questions we have to ask ourselves, in the wake of these mutliple, awful accidents, is what is different this year than last year that we are seeing so many equine and human deaths? I highly doubt that UL trainers change their conditioning/training program from year to year although I do think that the absense of the long format has had significant consequences in several areas. One of my thoughts is....could it be that because it is an Olympics year that UL riders are pushing their horses -and themselves- beyond their ability limit in order to get noticed by the USEF selection committe? And could their determination be compounded by course designers who, aware of the presence of the selection committee, build more challenging courses than usual so as to test the riders in an effort to help the committee people "see" who is up to par and who isn't? It's just an idea but I think it's very suspicious that all of these accidents are happening, pretty much one after the other, during an Olympics Selection year (and sadle this does not make our country look very strong going into the Summer games, although that is the least of our worries at the moment)

you bring up some very good points here... Things I've considered myself about this being a selection year...

Devastating results though... I mean... I hate to be negative, but at this rate, who will we have left by the time the olympics come around?

[Carol Ames]

could it be that because it is an Olympics year that UL riders are pushing their horses -and themselves- beyond their ability limit in order to get noticed by the USEF selection committe? And could their determination be compounded by course designers who, aware of the presence of the selection committee, build more challenging courses than usual so as to test the riders in an effort to help the committee people "see" who is up to par and who isn't It seems the te"demliiton derby " trials ofthe Goff years\:eek: are not a thing of the past after all.l:no:

[boppin along]

The "official" statement posted on the USEA web site says Lauren was unhurt.Someone on this site said she broke her leg.... I tend to believe what is written here since you guys are the eyes and ears of the truth in Eventing!!!! Does anyone know for sure?

[Honorary Blond]

"demliiton derby " trials ofthe Goff years\:eek: are not a thing of the past after all.l:no:[/QUOTE]

What were the "demolition derbys" of the LeGoff years? What happened? How long ago were they?

[Clear Blue]

Lauren walked off the course with assistance. As someone who was there - it did appear that something was not quite right with TT before the jump.

TT slowed down to a trot a few strides before the jump. Lauren stayed with him and unfortunately her leg got pinned underneath him. She stayed very still while vets attended to TT. I don't think they euthanized him - it appeared that he went on his own quickly. Once they rolled him over - off of her leg she was able to stand and walk with assistance.

Condolences to all of TT connections.

[pharmgirl]

Oh no!! How awful :(

[deltawave]

Just to add a little clarity. "Heart attack" is a very vague term when used in horses. Horses DO NOT get "heart attacks" like people do. They do not form plaques, blockages or other forms of hardening of the arteries. In rare instances worm infestations can weaken the arteries and make them prone to rupture. But (IMO) the term "heart attack" is really, really misleading, vague, and difficult to interpret when applied to competition horses. Too much confusion with human diseases, which do NOT apply to horses in this situation even remotely. Far, far more accurate to say what exactly happened (ruptured aorta, EIPH) but this of course is not always apparent until a necropsy.

[austin]

I have a friend who was looking into using Adequan on herself. she found a study that said that it was not allowed for humans due to an ingrediant that possibly causes increased bleeding, strokes, and heart attacks. but no one else (even all you docs) has brought this up so I have been reluctant to post.

ANyone ever heard this?

[Imahorselover]

I was at jump 28 when it happened. Saw it all and I am still having MAJOR anxiety I was 3-4ft away from the jump. I even got a shot of the Horse Just before the jump (David O'Connors Horse) Rider Leslie ? Rider was pinned under horse. Horse landed head then neck then body. Help was there in seconds and it was handled very well or as well as can be. This was my first time seeing eventing live. I had to come on line to try and talk to someone about this event to calm my anxiety a bit!

[deltawave]

ngrediant that possibly causes increased bleeding, strokes, and heart attacksNever heard of a specific warning, and that sounds really vague. Of course the ingredient in Adequan is remotely related to a type of blood thinner, maybe that is the (wispy) connection. Can you provide more detail on what you heard, or a source? Adequan is not approved in humans (yet) because of lack of evidence showing benefit.

Gotta applaud your friend looking into the research, although personally it sounds completely nuts to use horse meds on yourself! :eek:

[Snapdragon]

Rider of Tigger Too is Lauren Kieffer. Just don't want this to get mixed up with earlier post about a possible accident with Leslie Law. Looks like (based on results) Leslie had a stop on course but finished.

[Imahorselover]

Nothing to confirm - I have heard UNOFFICIALLY that Karen fell off of Allstar and that Tigger and Lauren had a fall, but that is all I know.

Karen did have a fall as well just prior (with in minutes) to the fall of the other horse and rider. David O Connor was there within seconds of both. The jumps were about a football field from each other.

[Carol Ames]

Thank ou Deltawave! little knowledge goes a long way!Just to add a little clarity. "Heart attack" is a very vague term when used in horses. Horses DO NOT get "heart attacks" like people do. They do not form plaques, blockages or other forms of hardening of the arteries. In rare instances worm infestations can weaken the arteries and make them prone to rupture. But (IMO) the term "heart attack" is really, really misleading, vague, and difficult to interpret when applied to competition horses. Too much confusion with human diseases, which do NOT apply to horses in this situation even remotely. Far, far more accurate to say what exactly happened (ruptured aorta, EIPH) but this of course is not always apparent until a necropsy.
__________________

[cyberbay]

And that thought is that the goalposts of this sport have moved, but the mentality hasn't changed to get through them.

The original goalposts were set by the riders who set the pace in eventing -- Wofford, Emerson, O'Connor, Lende, Watkins, Davidson, Plumb, even M. Todd -- who pioneered the sport, had no shoes to fill, or history or tradition to fulfill. Eventing was invented by them. But, the next generation, which is riding now, is automatically different from them -- they are very aware of the history and precedent set by the 'Greats.' And the urge to fulfill that precedent, to 'belong,' is strong in the riders who go upper level. It is part of their drive, part of their role modelling. Eventing has a very, very strong 'get tough, be tough' mentality. And this is the mentality of today's competitive, upper level event rider, too. Rightly or wrongly.

And because the pioneering days are over, automatically the goalposts in this sport have been moved (not short format change; I'm referencing even before then). Riders today are NOT riding the same xc courses of the history-making Woffords, et al. For at least a decade, they have been riding over much more technical courses, but in their minds they are thinking what they think was the mentality of the Greats: "Gallop on! Get tough! The best riders are famous for their run and jump! That's how it's done!" And, possibly what we're seeing is that courses today do not respond to that approach.

Dressage, which could be performed terribly by the horse and everyone in the eventing 'know' just laughed, since it wasn't supposed to be done very well anyway, has moved into the scoring cross hairs, and today's upper-level horse has to be able to be obedient and trained on that aspect. But maybe that degree of compliance for dressage interferes with the the arrogance needed for a top xc horse, and drains the verve needed to be smart and skilled over a top xc course (of any era). (This has been speculated upon many times, I think, by others over the years.)

So, these tacit expectations of "Kick on!" "Get tough!" "Oh, he hung a leg at the so-and so jump, but all's OK!!" -- and which is so much part of the culture of eventing -- as the guiding principals when a rider enters the start box maybe aren't the best ones. When, in fact, strong technical jumping skills might be the better way out of today's stiff water complex. This is not, however, advocating show jumping as the new xc. Not at all. My point is that the sport has already changed, but the mentality needed to ride today has not yet evolved. Hence, the accidents (maybe not explicitly the Darren C. crowd, but the majority of the deaths). Discretion instead of valor maybe should be the new tagline for eventing?

Just an idea...

[Imahorselover]

I was standing at jump 28 right when it happened and horse and rider didn't seem like they had enough speed for the jump. I got a photo of Tigger just prior to take off and he is touching the jump... he landed head then neck then body w/ rider trapped half way under him. Tigger only moved a little once down and then he seemed to go into shock and moved his legs a little but this all happened w/in seconds. I thought I was having a HEART ATTACK... very hard to see and very sad for all involved.

[asanders]

Flame suit on, clearly labled non-eventer inside, but I've been mulling this over for days (since the Derby); not an answer, just a slightly different angle on the problem.

Since I worked at the track, I have occassionally had conversations with horse and not horse people on the concept that in most if not all other sports, we continue to improve: faster miles and dashes, faster pitches, longer field goals, higher slam dunk jumps, and so on. But horses are running pretty much as they have for 100 yrs. I won't go onto the breeding trail here, except to note that cows give more milk, pigs are leaner, chickens are bigger, but horses are still THE SAME (we could do three whole threads on why).

Racing and eventing are 'team' sports (horse+rider) and the human half of the team expects to be able to do what other athletes do: go faster, jump more and tougher jumps. But, the horse half of the team might not be built like that. I don't know what to 'do' about it. I'm not at all trying to say that things could be 'fixed' if we bred horses differently. I'm just not sure what our expectations should be. They are not like running shoes or those space-age swimming suits, where each year you get better materials. Maybe an analogy is golf: they play the same courses, and scores stay roughly the same over time. They make the courses trickier each year, but they seem to be in balance with changes in clubs, etc. or everyone would drive the greens on the par 4's. Is there a way to keep technical difficulty balanced for both the riders and the horses?

[KBG Eventer]

Oh, no! Sweet horse, sweet rider. Any word on the fallen riders? RIP Tigger. It was so neat to watch him at one ICP Instructor's Symposium--Mr. Steady Eddy, figuring out stuff and always so attentive to his rider's wishes. That was some nice horse. Oh, blast. Blast it all.:cry: And he had had such a lovely dressage test at JF, too. :cry:

Ditto. I never saw Tigger, but Lauren is SO nice.

[RAyers]

I have a friend who was looking into using Adequan on herself. she found a study that said that it was not allowed for humans due to an ingrediant that possibly causes increased bleeding, strokes, and heart attacks. but no one else (even all you docs) has brought this up so I have been reluctant to post.

ANyone ever heard this?

Adequan is used in humans in Europe under a different formula. It is not FDA approved here in the US. I have never seen any studies indicating correlation to stokes and bleeding.

Reed

[austin]

:(

[Spoilsport]

Austin - I was just going to respond to you. Adequan (polysulfated glycosaminoglycan) is related to the blood-thinner Heparin and thought to possibly have some of the same side effects. So what your friend heard wasn't totally crazy.

R.I.P. Tigger. I don't want to sound callous or minimize this tragedy but this was a 17 y/o horse doing what he loved to do. I could think of worse ways to go.

[austin]

yes thanks! stopped using in Europe due to it having effects similar to Heparin.

[BarbB]

R.I.P. Tigger. I don't want to sound callous or minimize this tragedy but this was a 17 y/o horse doing what he loved to do. I could think of worse ways to go.

I understand that sentiment and when eventing was conducted with no spectators except other eventers that probably went without saying.

But I think in this age of cell phone videos and the drive to get the general public to come and watch events like this...these deaths are the prelude to the death of the sport.

[austin]

Is this blood thinning effect similar in all glucosumine supplements?

I don't want to give mine up, nor does my old dog, nor my horses.

maybe we need a different discussion. just responding to earlier speculation from Teddy's mom.

[Carol Ames]

It seems the the"demolition derby " trials of the Goff years\:eek: are not a thing of the past after all.l:no:


there would be three horse trials plus a three day , Rolexfull format; sometimes something i more especially if they were in Europe; If they had four horses standing at the end, that was :eek:the team; :yes: the last year I remember distinctlywas1984,(?) LA Olympics,






__________________
breeder of Mercury!

[ApplesLilJumper1]

i think now that O'Connors horse was involeved in a bad accident with eventing and that he (OC) is on the committie i HOPE we will be seeing some chages as in... shorter distance to jumps maybe even know it wouldnt really be " eventing" but maybe jumps that come down... and even an age limit of hroses as in when they stop growing to when they turn 15 or so... OR they should have that every horse can only do "eventing"(like reallllly high stuff) for x amount of years.

[HurricaneHolly]

I was at the water complex, looking directly at the lighthouse fence, as Tigger Too approached. It was clear that something terrible was going to happen. In all honestly, my brain went into protective mode and I can't remember a lot of the split second event. I do remember thinking "she is not moving!" and the horse's hind feet were starting to kick and come close to the rider's head. I grabbed my daughter, who is only seven, and headed away from the jump. There was no way I wanted her to have that image, confusion, and fear in her head. I have seen many things happed and they can be so painful emotionally. It was so hard for many of the adult spectators, let alone the children who have the horse bug.

I will keep Lauren and OCET in my prayers. RIP TT.

[deltawave]

Adequan and glucosamine are VASTLY different substances. Think single piece of elbow macaroni vs. entire bowl of macaroni salad. :)

[Carol Ames]

... and even an age limit of hroses as in when they stop growing to when they turn 15 or so... OR they should have that every horse can only do "eventing"(like reallllly high stuff) for x amount of years.
In order\for the horses to know enough , they will be older as will the dressage horses; and show jumpers racetrackers would call a 5 year an "old horse "but, he is is not an"old horse ;

but he is only then old enough to do a threeday. ;


I

[pwynnnorman]

Funny you should bring up glucosamine, deltawave, as I was just looking it up. I thought I'd look up a lot of the common supplements to see what kind of side effects they have. Look at just two possibilities: glucosamine (joint supplement) and omeprazole (for ulcers). If two were found, surely there may be more--and what about drug interactions? You can't help but wonder, y'know?

From About.com:


In rare human cases, the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin has been linked with temporarily elevated blood pressure and heart rate and palpitations.

Theoretically, glucosamine may increase the risk of bleeding. People with bleeding disorders, those taking anti-clotting or anti-platelet medication, such as warfarin, clopidogrel, and Ticlid, or people taking supplements that may increase the risk of bleeding, such as garlic, ginkgo, vitamin E, or red clover, should not take glucosamine unless under the supervision of a healthcare provider.


Omeprazole (gastroguard):
Post-marketing Experience

The following adverse reactions have been identified during post-approval use of PRILOSEC Delayed-Release Capsules. Because these reactions are voluntarily reported from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their actual frequency or establish a causal relationship to drug exposure.
Body As a Whole: Hypersensitivity reactions including anaphylaxis (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=10935), anaphylactic shock, angioedema (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2253), bronchospasm, interstitial (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9587) nephritis (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4528), urticaria (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=5919), (see also Skin (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=7901) below); fever; pain (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4723); fatigue (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9879); malaise (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4253);
Cardiovascular: Chest pain (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2700) or angina (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6594), tachycardia (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=5698), bradycardia (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2515), palpitations (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4741), elevated blood pressure (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2486), peripheral (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=8262) edema (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3192)
Endocrine: Gynecomastia (http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3644)

[deltawave]

Yessss, but, reports of possible side effects simply means that patient X got a symptom while taking drug Y in clinical trials or in general use, and it is thus recorded. No effort is made to differentiate the sneezing and cough patient X got due to a cold from sneezing and a cough from the drug.

I would steer very clear of about.com as a resource on anything, personally. No effort is made to sift wheat from chaff.

I definitely support the "leave no stone unturned" mentality, though. :yes: But these supplements/products (gastrogard, glucosamine, adequan) have been in wide use for many, many years and don't seem to fit with the current "spike" in horse deaths in eventing.

I got an email from TWO separate companies this week that are developing implantable "gadgets" to continuously measure pulmonary artery pressures in humans. Very promising for applied research into EIPH! :yes:

[clivers]

Flame suit on, clearly labled non-eventer inside, but I've been mulling this over for days (since the Derby); not an answer, just a slightly different angle on the problem.

Since I worked at the track, I have occassionally had conversations with horse and not horse people on the concept that in most if not all other sports, we continue to improve: faster miles and dashes, faster pitches, longer field goals, higher slam dunk jumps, and so on. But horses are running pretty much as they have for 100 yrs. I won't go onto the breeding trail here, except to note that cows give more milk, pigs are leaner, chickens are bigger, but horses are still THE SAME (we could do three whole threads on why).

Racing and eventing are 'team' sports (horse+rider) and the human half of the team expects to be able to do what other athletes do: go faster, jump more and tougher jumps. But, the horse half of the team might not be built like that. I don't know what to 'do' about it. I'm not at all trying to say that things could be 'fixed' if we bred horses differently. I'm just not sure what our expectations should be. They are not like running shoes or those space-age swimming suits, where each year you get better materials. Maybe an analogy is golf: they play the same courses, and scores stay roughly the same over time. They make the courses trickier each year, but they seem to be in balance with changes in clubs, etc. or everyone would drive the greens on the par 4's. Is there a way to keep technical difficulty balanced for both the riders and the horses?

No flaming from me - I'm an eventer through and through, but I've been wondering the same thing these past months. Have we not only reached but surpassed the level of difficulty that our horses are capable of? The ramifications of that, if it IS true, are immense.

[JER]

This was fence #28, I get that part.

And it was a skinny fence with a lighthouse theme.

Was it part of a water complex?

How many fences were there on the course?

How long had the horse and rider been on course? What was the OT?

Just curious, especially after watching Badminton last week.

[austin]

I have all my boys on the stuff and none of them have had soundness problems or ulcers that I know of. they are either retired or just doing dressage now and I use all these products as preventatives.

hasn't the combination of adequan plus ulcer meds been fairly recent as a norm for competition horses? I quit eventing in 2003 and the ulcer thing was not as much of an issue if my memory serves me right (which sometimes it does not).

I know I did not have my upper level horses on ulcer meds in 2003 when competing whereas today I would.


is it possible at least for the joint supplements, to take them off in time before cross country, etc, to lose the possible bleeding side effect and still have some residual joint comfort effect?

[deltawave]

You are making jumps to conclusions that are truly spectacular. :no: This is how rumors get started, jeez. Horses have been competing on Adequan for more than 15 years.

[c_expresso]

I was standing right there filming and saw it all happen. It was horrible. Tigger looked amazing on course I have a picture of him at the huge oxer at 12. He went great through the first water. He looked so young today and full of life. One of my good friends is great friends with Lauren and she is a great kid and an amazing rider. The fact David let her ride his horse tells you that.

RIP TIGGER. You will be greatly missed. Condolences to Lauren, the O'Connors...

[Buffyblue]

What a terrible tragedy! Godspeed, Tigger.

[ivy62]

Will they do a necropsy? This is very disturbing, I was at Rolex this year and saw The Quiet MAn go down and fortunately, Iw as on the other side of the course when Frodo went down....what is going on? Too many horses and riders getting seriously hurt...
Is it because it is an Olympic year?
Anyone?

[Rob N]

JER

Fence 28 was a skinny lighthouse jump just above the water complex.

Long Gallop from the back field to the front.

Many riders slowed as they approached the crest of the hill coming off the run from the back but Tigger slowed to a trot as he neared.

[piaffeprincess98]

Rider of Tigger Too is Lauren Kieffer. Just don't want this to get mixed up with earlier post about a possible accident with Leslie Law. Looks like (based on results) Leslie had a stop on course but finished.
Yes, Leslie had a run out right before Lauren came through the water. His horse just glanced off the corner in the water, so he took the long route. He looked sticky coming back into the water over the combination that Lauren fell at.

[S4zeus]

I would be hard pressed to believe that Adequan and/or GastroGard could be causing all these deaths, or be playing any role at all. But what about newer drugs or drugs under testing that are proven. One drug that pops into my head is Tildrin. Not a whole lot is known about it, but there are currently studies going on to try and get it FDA approved. I have no knowledge as to whether any of these horses are being treated with Tildrin, but if it is being marketed to people as a way of keeping horses sound longer... Lots of speculation, but I just couldn't believe Adequan or GastroGard to be a cause.

[luveventing]

SHORT FORMAT....
I know its been said, but the long format "weeded" out a lot of horses that had a lot of these issues. You have A, mostly w/t/c and then steeplechase- with higher speeds than on xc and only 8-10 forgiving fences, then phase C again mostly w/t. THEN THE VET BOX! Can anyone else remember how many horses were withdrawn in vet box? vitals are taken, horses are jogged up and watched for 10 minutes. HOw many of these horses that have died now might have been CAUGHT with issues in the vet box BEFORE going out to tackle a 30 some jump xc course???

The short format was to enable upper level riders to qualify more horses and save the horses legs, but MAYBE these problems we are seeing are because horses that maybe SHOULDN'T be competing at these levels are getting there. Interesting that many of these horses would have been doing CCI* level or moving up around the time the long format was taken out?

If that wasn't enough- think of the strong horses taht would be more rideable during the xc and the sticky horses that would have been thinking more forward after the steeplechase.

I really don't think its coincidence anymore- MANY of these horses are dying at Three day events or CICs.

Sorry, but SHORT FORMAT.

[longrun]

I am not a vet but what about a virus? If Tigger did have something happen
mid-jump, or before the fall - could he have had a heart murmur that turned
into more with stress?
A horse down the road from us used to event Intermediate, had been through several vet checks without a heart murmur being found and then at a vetting it was heard and now he goes BN. They think maybe he was exposed to a virus
that led to a murmur and decided not to sell him as an UL horse.
Any thoughts?

[RAyers]

Personally, I think it's a conditioning/course designing thing...maybe we should have mandatory conditioning tests before you can show CCI/CIC...but that's for a different thread.

Uh, I think that is what the long format did.

Reed

[Acertainsmile]

SHORT FORMAT....
I know its been said, but the long format "weeded" out a lot of horses that had a lot of these issues. You have A, mostly w/t/c and then steeplechase- with higher speeds than on xc and only 8-10 forgiving fences, then phase C again mostly w/t. THEN THE VET BOX! Can anyone else remember how many horses were withdrawn in vet box? vitals are taken, horses are jogged up and watched for 10 minutes. HOw many of these horses that have died now might have been CAUGHT with issues in the vet box BEFORE going out to tackle a 30 some jump xc course???

The short format was to enable upper level riders to qualify more horses and save the horses legs, but MAYBE these problems we are seeing are because horses that maybe SHOULDN'T be competing at these levels are getting there. Interesting that many of these horses would have been doing CCI* level or moving up around the time the long format was taken out?

If that wasn't enough- think of the strong horses taht would be more rideable during the xc and the sticky horses that would have been thinking more forward after the steeplechase.

I really don't think its coincidence anymore- MANY of these horses are dying at Three day events or CICs.

Sorry, but SHORT FORMAT.


Makes sense to me, I'm not an Eventer (have done it but yrs ago), but some friends that ride the upper levels feel this is the cause also.

[tommygirl]

short format. enough said.

[maxxtrot]

ok, flame suit on, but i agree with luveventing. i ran a one star(many moons ago) and it was long format. i really do believe that with the short format, maybe we are missing horses that would not have been allowed to continue on under long format conditions.just seems that things are only getting worse. i don't ride at the upper level any longer. am quite happy bringing along the greenies and running training and under. i really do hope we as a group can figure out what has gone so wrong within our sport and get it fixed before we lose the sport we love so much

[IFG]

SHORT FORMAT....
I know its been said, but the long format "weeded" out a lot of horses that had a lot of these issues. You have A, mostly w/t/c and then steeplechase- with higher speeds than on xc and only 8-10 forgiving fences, then phase C again mostly w/t. THEN THE VET BOX! Can anyone else remember how many horses were withdrawn in vet box? vitals are taken, horses are jogged up and watched for 10 minutes. HOw many of these horses that have died now might have been CAUGHT with issues in the vet box BEFORE going out to tackle a 30 some jump xc course???

The short format was to enable upper level riders to qualify more horses and save the horses legs, but MAYBE these problems we are seeing are because horses that maybe SHOULDN'T be competing at these levels are getting there. Interesting that many of these horses would have been doing CCI* level or moving up around the time the long format was taken out?

If that wasn't enough- think of the strong horses taht would be more rideable during the xc and the sticky horses that would have been thinking more forward after the steeplechase.

I really don't think its coincidence anymore- MANY of these horses are dying at Three day events or CICs.

Sorry, but SHORT FORMAT.

Makes sense to me.

[Foxygrl516]

MAYBE these problems we are seeing are because horses that maybe SHOULDN'T be competing at these levels are getting there. Interesting that many of these horses would have been doing CCI* level or moving up around the time the long format was taken out?

I really don't think its coincidence anymore- MANY of these horses are dying at Three day events or CICs.

Sorry, but SHORT FORMAT.


I'm not argueing about the short format thing, I am not a huge fan of it either. But in reference to this thread and Tigger specifically, I don't think the points you are making are valid. Tigger had a full and *incredibly* successful career w/ DOC in the long format. This is probably the FARTHEST thing from a good example of a horse that shouldn't be competing at the level. I DO agree w/ you that maybe if this had been a long format event they might have noticed him not feeling well before phase D. I'm really not trying to argue with you.

It's just hard to make the point that these horses aren't ready for this level and that's why they are getting hurt when you're talking about Tigger. I don't know what year Tigger first ran Advanced, and w/ the new USEA search I cant' look it up. But I know he ran Rolex in 2002... and I dont' think that was his first time. You could argue that he was "too old" and should have been retired or something. But rest assured that David pulled that horse out of retirement because Tigger loved his job. After everything that horse did for David, he certainly didn't feel like the horse hadn't earned his keep.

Anyway, I'm not trying to pick on you or argue really. It's just hard to say these horses aren't prepared when you are talking about what was probably (actually, without a doubt) the most experienced and amazing horses competing today.

[glfprncs]

I'm sure that many will jump all over me for pointing this out, but if one were to pull up Tigger Too's record for the past year, you will notice that since last Spring's Jersey Fresh CCI***, where Lauren and Tigger finished 25th (this would have been 5/07), the combination has only had two outings since. They competed at the Intermediate level in February of this year, and ran an Advanced horse trial in March, but withdrew after cross-country. I, personally, would have reconsidered running my horse in a CCI*** after only two outing since the entire year before, and only finishing one at the Intermediate level.

In the days of the long format, individuals used their advanced horse trials to help condition their horses for the exertion for a three or four star, but it appears that the short format is regarded not at nothing more than "just another horse trial" and preparations appear that they simply may not be as sound as they were in the past.

Just my $0.02.

[Acertainsmile]

I really think what is missing is the vet checks...not that the horses/riders arent prepared...

[luveventing]

I am NOT AT ALL saying these horses are NOT prepared. Just simply that many of these horses are dying unexpectedly at jumps due to health issues. If these horses had EIPH, heart issues or something of the sort that would cause them to collapse on course while jumping- it is MORE LIKELY that it would be noticed after the steeplechase (in which the fences are WAY more forgiving than the xc course in case anything WAS going wrong) and the horse would have been withdrawn in the box. It was a little test of fitness and health before sending you out to tackle the xc course. MANY horses failed that little test. Yes, disappointing for the riders/owners, but not as much as not bringing your horse home from an event.

What you said is exactly what I am saying- IF it was a long format, it is possible they would have realized these horses had health issues before they started out on xc and they would not have been in the devastating situations they have been in.

[TB or not TB?]

Anyway, I'm not trying to pick on you or argue really. It's just hard to say these horses aren't prepared when you are talking about what was probably (actually, without a doubt) the most experienced and amazing horses competing today.

Actually, when you consider that Tigger most likely received a LOT more conditioning with the LF, it makes perfect sense. Not that he wasn't "able," but that he wasn't "prepared."

[Beverley]

I understand that sentiment and when eventing was conducted with no spectators except other eventers that probably went without saying.

But I think in this age of cell phone videos and the drive to get the general public to come and watch events like this...these deaths are the prelude to the death of the sport.


In my opinion the sentiment is valid no matter how many happen to be watching. Our society is really over the top these days in being squeamish about death. It's inevitable for all of us, you know. If I can't die peacefully in my sleep at age 125 or so, I'd just as soon die quickly doing something I like to do. If people don't want to be traumatized by viewing an injury or death to a horse, the only way to guarantee that is to avoid all horses, all the time, at all costs. They are astounding in their ability to injure themselves even in the proverbial padded stall.

In this sad case, the horse died well, with minimal to no suffering. His human connections will suffer mightily from his loss. The rest of us should take a deep breath and quit speculating about what might or might not have caused or contributed to his death. Sheesh.

[JER]

Anyway, I'm not trying to pick on you or argue really. It's just hard to say these horses aren't prepared when you are talking about what was probably (actually, without a doubt) the most experienced and amazing horses competing today.

But you can't equate experience and/or ability with preparation.

A horse can have all the experience in the world and all the ability in the world but if the horse doesn't have the proper fitness level -- and I mean this both in the chronic sense (fitness over time, as in gallops and aerobic/anaerobic work) and the acute sense (fitness on that particular XC trip) -- he's not likely to be successful at XC at a CCI***.

I don't know what was the case with Tigger Too and I'm not in any way suggesting anything about this incident. My point is simply that you seem to be equating fitness with experience when they are two separate issues.

[Meredith Clark]

I would be hard pressed to believe that Adequan and/or GastroGard could be causing all these deaths, or be playing any role at all. But what about newer drugs or drugs under testing that are proven. One drug that pops into my head is Tildrin. Not a whole lot is known about it, but there are currently studies going on to try and get it FDA approved. I have no knowledge as to whether any of these horses are being treated with Tildrin, but if it is being marketed to people as a way of keeping horses sound longer... Lots of speculation, but I just couldn't believe Adequan or GastroGard to be a cause.

Why would Tildren be more likely than Adequan or GastroGard? Tildren has been approved and used widely in Europe for years and I beleive they have a much lower death rate in reference to eventing than we have (esp if you look at Rolex v Badminton)

Anyway... the important thing...

RIP Tigger :(

[Vegas Sky]

This is a true point, Tigger was one of the most experienced UL horses of our time, but what about the others? Darren's horse or Frodo Baggins or The Quiet Man? Maybe these are the horses that would have been pulled out at the vet box. I really think this is where the problem is, that combined with it being an olympic selection year...

We need to change away from short format. It isn't working.

How many more horses and riders have to die for something to get done? Wake up USEA USEF and FEI...wake up...

[RAyers]

Why would Tildren be more likely than Adequan or GastroGard.. or did you just pick a random drug? Tildren has been approved and used widely in Europe for years and I beleive they have a much lower death rate in reference to eventing than we have (esp if you look at Rolex v Badminton)

Anyway... the important thing...

RIP Tigger :(

Tildren and other bisphosphonates induce necrotic bone tissue formation in intramembranous formed bones such as the face, spine and ribs.

That data is just being published. I can provided 6 recent references if needed. Many craniofacial surgeons will no longer operate on patients who have been on these drugs because of the reduced mechanical capacity of the bone.

NO, I doubt any of this has anything to do with what is happening on XC.

Reed

[Foxygrl516]

TB- you may be totally right. It is a very good possibility that he wasn't "prepared". I shouldn't have used that word. I was more addressing the generalization that the horses should not be running at those high levels so quickly without really being ready to move up. It just doesn't hold water when you're talking about Tigger.

luveventing- I kinda figured that was the point you were trying to make. I agree that it would be nice to catch those things before it becomes another death on course.

More than anything though, I agree w/ beverley that a GREAT horse died today and a lot of people are grieving him tonight. I usually don't get involved in the conversations and didn't plan to, I just wanted to point out that Tigger was not "too green" for that level.

[Kementari]

Darren's horse was going Prelim. Long vs short format doesn't enter into that equation.

I think it was Wynn who said a while back that we need to stop pining for the long format and get down to the business of making the sport safe NOW. Honestly, however much we cry, what do you REALLY think the chances of the long format coming back are? Mr Slim, meet Mrs None. (And it's not that I don't WANT the long format; I'm just being realistic.)

I hope they do a necropsy on Tigger and determine whether he was dead (or dying) BEFORE the jump, or whether the jump itself was solely at fault. Either way, it's not OK and something needs to be changed - but the more actual science we have to base our decisions on, the better. :yes:

[Highflyer]

It's very, very common for racehorses to get both Adequan and Gastroguard, so my guess is that if either of them were a major problem, we would know.

[horsegirl520]

I haven't read this whole thread, and I don't know much about eventing, as I'm a hunter princess, but it almost seems like there have been more problems this year and last than any other year in my memory. Does the increase in cardiac problems have to do with a change to the short format and riders spending less time on conditioning?

[Jaegermonster]

There are photos of Tigger's fall in the other thread with the link to the photographers photos from Jersey Fresh.

[Meredith Clark]

Tildren and other bisphosphonates induce necrotic bone tissue formation in intramembranous formed bones such as the face, spine and ribs.

That data is just being published. I can provided 6 recent references if needed. Many craniofacial surgeons will no longer operate on patients who have been on these drugs because of the reduced mechanical capacity of the bone.

NO, I doubt any of this has anything to do with what is happening on XC.

Reed

That I understand... and if these horse's spines were cracking or they were breaking legs during x-country I would be alarmed and more likely to point to Tildren, but the vets are saying this was a "heart attack" and although the body works together as a system... the link might be hard to find.

[eyesontheground]

Could we get a more official update of exactly what happened to who today? I tried the NJ horse park website and the Oconnor website but so far no update. I looked at the USEA website and it only mentioned Lauren and Tigger.

That all being said...this makes me so sad. I hope the leaders of eventing can have the wisdom to lead us through the bumpy spots on the road and come up with a solution that works.

[Shrapnel]

This is a true point, Tigger was one of the most experienced UL horses of our time, but what about the others? Darren's horse or Frodo Baggins or The Quiet Man? Maybe these are the horses that would have been pulled out at the vet box. I really think this is where the problem is, that combined with it being an olympic selection year...

We need to change away from short format. It isn't working.

How many more horses and riders have to die for something to get done? Wake up USEA USEF and FEI...wake up...

I agree! However, the USEA has woken up. Things don't happen over night you know. Did you not read the letter from Kevin Baumgardner and David O'Connor? The safety summit in KY is a great start.

But, I still can't believe this! Thats 5 horses that have died this year in just our own country.

I think we have to focus on 3 major things:

1.) The "short" format (what isnt working - what do we change)
2.) Qualification for the level (Rider AND horse) (Qual. should be harder to get)
3.) Course Design (Frangible Pins should be used at every XC fence IMO)

I also think that there should be some sort of evaluation of fitness level for whatever level the combination is competing at.

[GreyDun]

Could we get a more official update of exactly what happened to who today? I tried the NJ horse park website and the Oconnor website but so far no update. I looked at the USEA website and it only mentioned Lauren and Tigger.


Official press release (http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?section=fei&id=1509) from USEA is up - not just the bit about Lauren & Tigger. Sorry took so long - stuck in a stinky motel with no internet. Tons of Blog photo galleries tomorrow...too late tonight.

[CiegoStar]

This is a true point, Tigger was one of the most experienced UL horses of our time, but what about the others? Darren's horse or Frodo Baggins or The Quiet Man? Maybe these are the horses that would have been pulled out at the vet box. I really think this is where the problem is, that combined with it being an olympic selection year...

We need to change away from short format. It isn't working.

How many more horses and riders have to die for something to get done? Wake up USEA USEF and FEI...wake up...

Not sure I understand your comment - first you mention experience, then you say it must be something veterinary. Then you blame the short course.

Frodo fell very early in the course, and he was young and (presumably, as the necrospy seems to have shown nothing else) healthy. His fall was almost certainly the result of rider error. A sad thing indeed and no one wants to add to Laine's burden, but all the witness statements and DOC's comments to the press seem to agree on this point.

The Quiet Man, according to eyewitnesses, appeared to be having an off day. Like Frodo's, his death was the result of impact and apparently not because of some pre-existing condition. Both the Quiet Man and Frodo had young and relatively untested riders who had a few years' experience at the upper levels.

Darren's fall is another story. Very experienced rider, young horse at a (relatively) low level of competition. There are less eyewitness accounts of this fall because it didn't take place somewhere like Rolex, but my trainer, who is well connected, said the combination was set on a half-stride. Not saying this is the answer, but no one seems to have come up with anything definitive. The horse was unhurt and Darren seems to be making a really remarkable recovery. Thank goodness for one good story out of this.

Now, poor Tigger. Another presumably healthy horse with another up-and-coming young rider. I'm inclined to think the up-and-coming riders are the common denominator. They have more to prove than the seasoned pros. They are willing to take more risks. Unfortunately at the top levels there is no margin of error. A missed distance means maybe you or your horse might not walk away. It's sickening.

Here is my proposal: Revamp the young riders program to mirror the Maclay equitation. Maclay/medals are great because they test the skills riders will use in the jumpers, only they do it at slower speed and over 3' to 3'6" fences. I think we should create a prelim-level junior championship for the elites who aim for Rolex in their 20s. It wouldn't necessarily be judged just like equitation, but perhaps you will get penalty points for being farther from optimum time, for example. The bottom line is that it would test Advanced/***/**** skills over lower fences at lower speeds with perhaps a subjective score included.

That's the best I can think of as I've considered this over the last few weeks. I just know I don't want to see any more horses and riders dying.

[Bensmom]

Ok, I just lost my whole post, darnit.

But, a couple of things that may be helpful.

First, there will be a necropsy. Each time I've been involved in one of these incidents, there is one conducted and I am certain that it is being handled quickly and efficiently and there will be a press release when the results are available.

Second, and deltawave, I'd love your help here. I spent quite a bit of time talking with the vets that worked the two horse deaths at Red Hills. The way that death from EIPH was explained to me is that the bleeding will start before the massive hemorrhaging that ends in death occurs. The vet that was explaining this to me suggested eventers consider wearing heart rate monitors in training and in competition and that once the "normal" for that horse is established to pay attention to the HR while on course. He said that when the bleed starts, the horse in question should suddenly spike HR and that if a rider saw that and pulled up, you might not save the horse, but you could prevent the massive hemorrhage from resulting in a bad fall for the horse and rider.

What this might mean to Tigger's fall is that the drop in speed and willingness that spectators saw as he approached the fence could have been as a result of the bleed beginning and then the massive hemorrhage that resulted in death happened as he took off for the fence.

Now, this is TOTAL speculation, since the word is out there that he died from EIPH. This is just a scenario that might explain why it looked like a fall but was related to a physical cause.

The official press release does not state pulmonary hemorrhage though, and says it is still under investigation, so there is no answer yet.

Deltawave -- does that make sense? Is that a plausible scenario?

I did get official approval from the powers that be that a Heart Rate monitor is ok to wear on course, fwiw.

Godspeed, Tigger.

Libby

[outofthebox]

I hope they do a necropsy on Tigger and determine whether he was dead (or dying) BEFORE the jump, or whether the jump itself was solely at fault. Either way, it's not OK and something needs to be changed - but the more actual science we have to base our decisions on, the better. :yes:

Tigger was thrashing and trying to get up after the fall, he wasn't dead before, during or after the jump. Another rotational fall and horse's death and the eventing world really doesn't want to have to deal with more bad press... so call it a heart attack.

[lbennet6]

Here is my proposal: Revamp the young riders program to mirror the Maclay equitation. Maclay/medals are great because they test the skills riders will use in the jumpers, only they do it at slower speed and over 3' to 3'6" fences. I think we should create a prelim-level junior championship for the elites who aim for Rolex in their 20s. It wouldn't necessarily be judged just like equitation, but perhaps you will get penalty points for being farther from optimum time, for example. The bottom line is that it would test Advanced/***/**** skills over lower fences at lower speeds with perhaps a subjective score included.

That's the best I can think of as I've considered this over the last few weeks. I just know I don't want to see any more horses and riders dying.

I think that is an excellent idea...

[Granada]

In my opinion the sentiment is valid no matter how many happen to be watching. Our society is really over the top these days in being squeamish about death. It's inevitable for all of us, you know. If I can't die peacefully in my sleep at age 125 or so, I'd just as soon die quickly doing something I like to do. If people don't want to be traumatized by viewing an injury or death to a horse, the only way to guarantee that is to avoid all horses, all the time, at all costs. They are astounding in their ability to injure themselves even in the proverbial padded stall.

In this sad case, the horse died well, with minimal to no suffering. His human connections will suffer mightily from his loss. The rest of us should take a deep breath and quit speculating about what might or might not have caused or contributed to his death. Sheesh.

Beverly, thank you, I agree wholeheartedly.

RIP Tigger. Let's remember him as the awesome horse he was and thank the higher spirit that Lauren was not seriously injured.

I think we can look into safety and horse health without cheapening a horse's life by suggesting that he (or any other horse or rider) was wasted on the sport of eventing. This in no way is trying to say that injuries are acceptable; just that I wish outsiders and sometimes insiders could think productively without blaming "the evil eventing sport" which in turn casts a shadow over those horse and rider teams who truely love eventing for all the good reasons.

My condolences to Tigger's family and extended family.

[canterlope]

Tigger was thrashing and trying to get up after the fall, he wasn't dead before, during or after the jump. Another rotational fall and horse's death and the eventing world really doesn't want to have to deal with more bad press... so call it a heart attack.OOTB, the eventing world will "call it" exactly what it is as soon as "It" is known. Preliminary findings pointed towards a pulmonary related event, so that is how it was reported. If the necropsy shows something different, that will be reported as well. No vast conspiracy or cover-up will take place, regardless of how the press will react or what will be said on internet BBs.

[Madeline]

Since I worked at the track, I have occassionally had conversations with horse and not horse people on the concept that in most if not all other sports, we continue to improve: faster miles and dashes, faster pitches, longer field goals, higher slam dunk jumps, and so on. But horses are running pretty much as they have for 100 yrs. I won't go onto the breeding trail here, except to note that cows give more milk, pigs are leaner, chickens are bigger, but horses are still THE SAME (we could do three whole threads on why).



Just a little contribution here. My understanding is that while racehorses are not smashing records frequently, the times through the ranks are improving. While except for the occasional freak ( and I mean that in a good way) they are not breaking new ground, the average $5000 claimer is running 6F noticeably faster than tehy were a few generations ago. While the top isn't moving, the middle is moving up.

This concept has not much to do with the current discussion, though, except that I do not think that the courses have outstripped the actual physical abilities of the horses. Training? Maybe. Riders? That's possible too. But I think that there are a large number of horses who are physically (and mentally) up to the task of upper level eventing.

[RiverBendPol]

I haven't read the whole report from Jersey Fresh (USEA report) but read this:
"Leyland, an eight-year-old ex-racehorse owned by Elisabeth, Mike, and Chris Nicholson, is still relatively green at the Advanced level after taking all of last year off from a broken hind coffin bone. "He definitely showed his greenness at the the offset houses [Fence 7 & 8]. But he's a really good galloping horse, and he was great around the course. Mentally, it's a big barrier for them when the optimum time gets over the ten-minute mark....He doesn't know what he can't do, which can be a huge luxury," she added."

Tell me, what is the point of running a green 8 year old in a (***)? OBVIOUSLY I know what one point is, but sheesh. I'd say she got lucky. Yes, Amy is a good rider but I don't happen to think nursing a green youngster who has had a year off for a broken bone is all that great an idea.

[dalpal]

I saw the fall and to be completely honest it is suprising that there is mention of a heart attack being related in the fall- is this what they believed caused the flip or happened as a result?

The incident was horrible, Tigger broke to a trot around the turn and Lauren urged him on to pick up a canter and jump- they left the ground with very little impulsion for the size of the fence. I was expecting Tigger to stop but he really tried for Lauren. What happened after was agonizing, but in the end we unfortunately lost Tigger Too today and Lauren's leg[s] were injured.

Please, everyone, jingle for the O'Connors, and especially Lauren. We lost a very talented animal today who tried his heart out to the very end.

Are they absolutely sure it was a heartattack without an autopsoy at this point??? Someone who was there said he tried to get up but had to be euthanized???? If he had a heartattack wouldn't he have died on his own?

:(

[Spoilsport]

NO, I doubt any of this has anything to do with what is happening on XC.

To speculate that these accidents (deaths) are caused by Adequan or other drugs is quite as silly as to blame it on the short format or Captain Mark Phillips ;) It is always a good idea to keep an open mind and not jump to conclusions.

My condolences and jingles to the O'Connors, Kieffers and everyone involved.

[austin]

speculating is keeping an open mind, and considering all possiblities. the two horses at Red Hills died from hemmoraging.

[bosox]

This quote was taken from Horse and Hound

USEF president David O'Connor said: "The suspension is meant to be a deterrent, to reduce dangerous riding.

"There are two extremes — the professional riders make our courses look easy, beautiful and fun to watch and then you get the less competent guys doing it by aggression or being too slow. They're affecting the sport."


Well---I guess that has been the trouble all along. The Top/Elite--never thought they were the issue. The LLs were the trouble (although not from the results/stats)---and the LLs were the outcry. The leadership gave "proposed" change but only under LLs pressure. Now maybe the leadership will dive into this wholeheartedly.

RIP poor horse---maybe from your sacrifice--ALL the levels will change. Along with their hearts and minds.

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

[J Swan]

Second, and deltawave, I'd love your help here. I spent quite a bit of time talking with the vets that worked the two horse deaths at Red Hills. The way that death from EIPH was explained to me is that the bleeding will start before the massive hemorrhaging that ends in death occurs. The vet that was explaining this to me suggested eventers consider wearing heart rate monitors in training and in competition and that once the "normal" for that horse is established to pay attention to the HR while on course. He said that when the bleed starts, the horse in question should suddenly spike HR and that if a rider saw that and pulled up, you might not save the horse, but you could prevent the massive hemorrhage from resulting in a bad fall for the horse and rider.

Deltawave -- does that make sense? Is that a plausible scenario?

I did get official approval from the powers that be that a Heart Rate monitor is ok to wear on course, fwiw.

Godspeed, Tigger.

Libby

Interesting. Reminds me of the way astronauts are monitored by ground personnel. Knowing when something is starting to go wrong - a more sophisticated way than merely "the horse feeling off" - might be very helpful. Whether that is done during conditioning or at competition. I know vets are involved at home and at the venue - but I just find your ideas most interesting and hope Deltawave will comment on it.

I'm very sorry for the loss of this horse - whatever the reason.

[asanders]

Just a little contribution here. My understanding is that while racehorses are not smashing records frequently, the times through the ranks are improving. While except for the occasional freak ( and I mean that in a good way) they are not breaking new ground, the average $5000 claimer is running 6F noticeably faster than tehy were a few generations ago. While the top isn't moving, the middle is moving up.

This concept has not much to do with the current discussion, though, except that I do not think that the courses have outstripped the actual physical abilities of the horses. Training? Maybe. Riders? That's possible too. But I think that there are a large number of horses who are physically (and mentally) up to the task of upper level eventing.

Well, I guess that is exactly my point. If the actual horse were the part improving, you'd see it in smashed records, but the horse isn't improving (in fact some argue that the opposite is true). The improvement 'in the ranks' is from nutrition, healthcare, track surface, take your pick.

We as human competitors want to do a little more all the time, and you are right that the failures are likely not physically caused by the horse per se; just that the horse is what it is, and as we try to eek out more and more performance from the system (horse, rider, training), it is the horse that is paying when we fail.

[apprider]

The Newark Star Ledger is reporting that preliminary necropsy from New Bolton results showed a pulmonary bleed. RIP Tigger.

[arnika]

RIP Tigger Too. My most sincere condolences to Lauren.

Are there any official or unofficial stats on EIPH deaths over the past few years? I realize that deltawave, et al are looking into this currently (thank you!) but I am interested in the percentage of horse deaths this has been attributed to in a five year span.

[RunForIt]

RIP Tigger Too. My most sincere condolences to Lauren.

Are there any official or unofficial stats on EIPH deaths over the past few years? I realize that deltawave, et al are looking into this currently (thank you!) but I am interested in the percentage of horse deaths this has been attributed to in a five year span.

Can someone post the link to DW's thread about EIPH? Am sitting here wondering how this could be diagnosed/monitored - thanks.

[pwynnnorman]

Gawd, my post was so behind the discussion, I had to delete it for irrelevance!

[clivers]

Well, I guess that is exactly my point. If the actual horse were the part improving, you'd see it in smashed records, but the horse isn't improving (in fact some argue that the opposite is true). The improvement 'in the ranks' is from nutrition, healthcare, track surface, take your pick.

We as human competitors want to do a little more all the time, and you are right that the failures are likely not physically caused by the horse per se; just that the horse is what it is, and as we try to eek out more and more performance from the system (horse, rider, training), it is the horse that is paying when we fail.

I'm going to chime in with a nod of agreement here - IMO it's a possiblity that we have reached the limit of what we can safely ask horses to do on XC. There have been so many "accidents" in the past 18 months that I think we're at the point where we can't continue to be "surprised" by them - something more systematic may have happened and eventing at the upper levels may have evolved beyond it's relevance.

RIP Tigger Too and condolences to his "family".

[Catersun]

what pwynn said about being late ot the thread.

[arnika]

RunForIt, there is a group of eventers with medical and research backgrounds as well as veterinarians looking into this right now.

[Janet]

Here is my proposal: Revamp the young riders program to mirror the Maclay equitation. Maclay/medals are great because they test the skills riders will use in the jumpers, only they do it at slower speed and over 3' to 3'6" fences. I think we should create a prelim-level junior championship for the elites who aim for Rolex in their 20s. It wouldn't necessarily be judged just like equitation, but perhaps you will get penalty points for being farther from optimum time, for example. The bottom line is that it would test Advanced/***/**** skills over lower fences at lower speeds with perhaps a subjective score included.
If you are going to make comparisons to the jumpers, don't forget that they ALSO have "Junior Jumpers" (where time DOES count), the tp juniors DO aim for (and compete in) hte elite Grand Prix, and the SAME Young Riders Championship that the Eventers go to.

[Carol Ames]

The figures show that for every 1,000 riders taking part in international eventing last year, three suffered a serious or fatal injury — but the number of falls is dropping overall.

In 2002, after the 1999 season when there were five deaths in UK hors
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/article.php?
aid=2542


74

[Preppy Pony]

All these horses dying in eventing is really strange.:confused:

[Carol Ames]

w.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/391/255863.html0 May, 2008 PROPOSALS to make American eventing safer have been met with concern from the big names in British and world eventing.

[pwynnnorman]

Besides a slew of emails from my "ConStuff" mailing list, I got two intriguing emails this morning: one from someone who learned a horse s/he once eventing had died out in the field from a cardiopulmonary event and the other, the following:

I spoke to Pam today and she suggested that I e-mail you. I am the owner of Liona and the one that performs complete cardiac scans on horses along with my partner that is a board certified vet cardiologist. All along we have been trying to educate mainly the thoroughbred industry on the value of a complete scan which includes intra cardiac pressures. (especially pulmonary pressures) It doesn't matter at what level a horse performs, if their pressures are elevated it will affect performance. Pam told me that there have been several horses that have died of pulmonary hypertension in the past year and people are beginning to take notice. Dr. _________and I believe that if a horse is going to compete at any level in any discipline why wouldn't an owner have the engine checked out. One would if they were buying a car. Size has always been a known feature for increased Beyer ratings and earnings in older racing thoroughbreds but size can be influenced by many negative factors. I'll send you one of our brochures on Monday. Let me know your thoughts.


I'd like to know others' thoughts on this, too. I can't recall (from the bills) whether Ted's had something like this done. I had expressed curiousity about it a while back to Pam because Ted's dad was discovered to have had an extra large heart and an extra large spleen. I had actually been thinking of finding out about it with Coda (back when I had control of his future). I don't quite understand, now, however, whether this procedure could point to the kind of issues we are discussing. Anyone have experience with it?

[Carol Ames]

Any word?

[ponygrl]

P WYNN, As i have learned through my own personal health cardiopulmonary issues ,stress , especially cumulative stress can cause plaque to break off and cause clots:eek: you do have a point though about examining the supplements; and feeds:yes:

but horses have a completely different diet - I don't think atherosclerotic plaques are the an issue in horses like they are in humans...

I don't have any numbers but I would guess that coronary artery disease isn't a huge problem in horses.

[Bensmom]

wynn -- I am extremely interested as well in the cardiac scans that are done as part of racehorse pre-purchase exams, though I've always been interested from the large heart perspective (see the Martian Tiger thread in the reference section).

So, I'll be very interested in what comments you get on that question.

Guys, please listen, or go back and read what deltawave explained about horses and their hearts.

Unlike people, horses do not have "Heart Attacks." And, deltawave will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, but what you have seen concerning heart attacks in people in the popular media doesn't really represent what happens either. A being that has a cardiac event does not always just "seize up and drop dead."

Not to be too descriptive, especially keeping in mind that I am not a vet, but a pulmonary hemorrhage is not an instantaneous death. I think it can be very quick but it isn't always.

Perhaps a good, medically correct definition/explanation is what we need here.

But, please also listen to canterlope -- there will be a press release from the necropsy findings and I can assure you that there will be no "cover up." It is not helpful to the sport for folks to go looking for a conspiracy concerning these issues and it is hurtful to those who are working with the emergency as it happens to see such statements.

Ok, deltawave, can you give us a good explanation of what actually happens in an pulmonary hemorrhage that results in death? It would be very helpful, I think, even if that doesn't turn out to be what happened to Tigger.

Libby :(

[CiegoStar]

If you are going to make comparisons to the jumpers, don't forget that they ALSO have "Junior Jumpers" (where time DOES count), the tp juniors DO aim for (and compete in) hte elite Grand Prix, and the SAME Young Riders Championship that the Eventers go to.

True. Still, the juniors who are elite (ie monied and well-horsed) enough to compete in both are using skills learned in the Maclays in the junior jumpers as well.

Just seems to me that eventing has no equivalent junior "prep" championship.

[lbennet6]

If you are going to make comparisons to the jumpers, don't forget that they ALSO have "Junior Jumpers" (where time DOES count), the tp juniors DO aim for (and compete in) hte elite Grand Prix, and the SAME Young Riders Championship that the Eventers go to.

The Maclay, USEF and the other top equitation medals are not the jumpers. They are judged over jumper like courses and are based on the riders equitation and decisions on course...generally in the Hunter/Jumper world kids start off in the hunters to learn rhythm/distances/consistency, then they move to the Equitation medals where the courses are more technical but they are not timed, then they make the transition into the jumpers...this way the rider has a foundation and the necessary skills to compete in the jumpers...

I think the eventing world would benefit from something like this...(I used to event, but switched when my horse had an injury and could not handle XC)

[deltawave]

It isn't that horses' diets are so completely different from ours WRT their freedom from atherosclerosis. It's that they're an entirely different species. You can feed horses all the Whoppers and ice cream you want, they will never develop plaque in their arteries. Square teeth = no plaque. (pure herbivores) All pointy teeth = no plaque. (pure carnivores) Mixed set of teeth like us? Plaque formers. (there are exceptions--you can make rabbits get plaque if you feed them enough crap) Horses do not get coronary artery disease the way we think of it. Parasite damage to arterial walls is the loophole/exception, but is obviously an entirely different process, and quite uncommon in this day and age in well-kept horses free of strongyles.

Anyhow, it is becoming increasingly obvious that EIPH is what is killing these equine athletes. And there is almost certainly a "cause" or causes out there somewhere, but it hasn't been found yet. By "cause" I mean a condition or conditions or set of circumstances that predisposes one horse to a fatal hemorrhage while another is safe. What we DO know is that pulmonary artery pressures in the horse go extraordinarily high in settings of extreme exertion. Much, much, much higher than in humans under similar levels of activity. Humans do not get EIPH.

And it is possible to measure the pulmonary pressures in horses, both at rest and under exertion, with fairly simple, noninvasive methods. (echocardiography) Whether this could be used for "screening" is very, very intriguing, but debatable and (I don't think) a settled question, at least in my review of the literature. Meaning a horse that's prone to EIPH might have perfectly normal pressures at rest, which is when the majority of "screening" heart ultrasounds (echo) are done. Should every event prospect have an exercise stress echo? Again, intriguing and promising, but PRICEY and the predictive value is UNPROVEN. I'm excited about some new technology (for humans) to measure pulmonary pressures with an implanted gadget that can be read remotely. Gathering some info on that, but it's nowhere near the point where it's in widespread use. Progress, though! :yes:

What about looking for other signs--an enlarged right heart, leaky valves, etc? Again, promising, but unproven. I'm an echocardiographer in real life. Echo is what I do. This line of thinking, to me, is very, very logical and hopeful and I hope something is done with it. The attack on horse fatalities has GOT to have many, many prongs and this is just one of them.

OK, as to what exactly happens in EIPH: I think we'll have to step around the question "what causes it?" because that is still largely unanswered. But the actual physical event involves rupture of the small vessels within the lung (the pulmonary capillaries) under extreme high pressure, causing blood to flood from the pulmonary arteries (carrying blood from the right heart to the lung tissue) into the alveolar spaces (or air sacs) and thus into the airway/bronchi/trachea. The airways become flooded with blood, and the animal essentially drowns. Dreadful thing, but in the setting of extreme high pulmonary artery pressures in an animal using maximal oxygen, probably VERY VERY quick. In other words, the critter would lose consciousness very quickly, and be very likely insensible to the latter part of the process of dying. Is it painful? I have no idea. The rare episodes of (human) pulmonary hemorrhage I've seen are intensely distressing due to the sensation of drowning, but not painful per se, and loss of consciousness is very fast.

[luveventing]

my feeling is this---- YES some of these accidents do not fit into the long vs short format argument, but IF you take out the ones that DO fit into the long v short THEN you have that small percentage of accidents that we had in years past.

I think we will always have those freak accidents, but I do not in any way think that the recent events are "freak accidents". They in my opinion are the result of the change to the short format years ago. No doubt in my mind, and yes it may never change, but my horses will not be part of it if it doesn't. For my safety and theirs..... How many deaths have we seen at the CCI* level??? pretty sure none. this is where MANY horses and riders are doing the most difficult course of their careers to date, the first time they do steeplechase, the first time they do heavy conditioning. why are theses horses coming out ok?

It just seems to obvious to me with the causes of death for these horses.

I cannot imagine jumping a few warm up fences and then going out to take on Rolex CCI****.

IF The quiet man had run steeplechase- would Sarah have pulled him in the vet box since he was having an off day? or would she have been able to get the "on" switch working? Would Frodo have been a bit more ridable at fence FIVE because the edge was taken off on steeplechase? Horses learn to get their legs out of the way on steeplechase, they learn to think quickly on their feet over fences that will give.

IF a horse has EIPH or a heart issue these would have been aggrevated at the high speeds on steeplechase and been evident ESP. if the standards of screening and technology was further used in the vet box. those horses would not have been on xc trying to jump combination ABCDEFG. I think the old timers knew what they were doing.....REALLY. AT this point I would be THANKFUL if someone pulled my horse in the vet box because of one of these issues. He could go live a wonderful life as a lower level eventer, dressage horse or h/j and not have to give up his life for me to run xc one more time.

I was sad to lose the long format, but and never a diehard about it. After the last few years- there is no doubt in my mind that we are seeing the results in MANY aspects of our sport from that change.

[RunForIt]

DW, thanks for the explanations - I'll reread and then ask more questions...not just from you.

Happy Mother's Day! :cool:

[pwynnnorman]

DW, given how the incident occurs, what are the odds (I mean that seriously, NOT skeptically) that some forewarning of it would be detected in the ten minute box, if it still existed (after all three preliminary phrases, not just after steeplechase)? Would the period of R&T after the high stress of steeplechase obscure the signs (if there are any)?

And thanks so much for your expertise in this area. I have been very confused about the physiology of this (or whatever the correct word is--see what I mean?).

[frugalannie]

DW, thank you for taking some of your time on Mother's Day to explain and clarify. Excellent post. And thanks to Pwynn and everyone else for asking the questions that are bringing forth the info.

[flyingchange]

RIP Tigger. You tried your best.

[Bensmom]

dw -- thanks from me too for taking the time on Mother's Day to explain this to us. Would you say that the vet that explained to us that the hemorrhage starts as a smaller bleed with a concurrent spike in HR was correct?

He seemed to think that one of the reasons this event is seen so much less in endurance horses is because HR is monitored so closely in that sport. He's been a vet at endurance rides and at events and he was wondering if riders monitored it more closely as we don't have a 10 min box anymore in eventing, if that would help.

Would you say that if you caught a pulmonary hemorrhage in its beginning stages there would be any chance of saving the animal? In other words, if the exertion stopped as soon as the signs were present, is there any chance to stop the massive bleed, or once the process has started, it would be impossible to stop?

This is very interesting and I really appreciate the expertise available to us here -- thanks so much for taking the time to share it with us.

libby

[retreadeventer]

Delta, in horse racing, we scope horses who bleed or are suspected of bleeding. It is cheap, simple, easy, quick, and REQUIRED of any horse showing any blood at the nostrils. Every racing jurisdiction I know of that allows lasix has bleeding rules. Pretty simple and straight forward and you can find the rules at any state racing authority website. Why not at Prelim and above mandatory scoping of any horse showing blood at nostrils, just like racing.

[Clear Blue]

DW- EIPH is not an uncommon occurrance in the racing industry. In many instances there are certain conditions (airway disease/inflammation/laryngeal disorders) that set the stage for EIPH to occurr. Race horses are monitored frequently (by post exercise/race endoscopy of the respiratory tract). With frequent endoscopic monitoring, minor bleeds are often detected. The horses are worked up further for underlying causes (and treated medically or have surgery), rested, and then start running on Lasix (at least in the US). The horse is then endoscoped routinely after every hard work or race. If the horse continues to be a "repeat offender" they are retired.

While I know of a handful of horses that have switched careers away from Eventing for this problem, the incidence in the Event horses is not documented. Shortly after RHHT I emailed the USEA with a recommendation to start investigating the possibilty of endoscoping all horses after the X-C phase of an upper level/FEI event.

If this can be done, it may reveal that these tragic deaths are really only the tip of the iceberg.

[deltawave]

given how the incident occurs, what are the odds (I mean that seriously, NOT skeptically) that some forewarning of it would be detected in the ten minute box, if it still existed (after all three preliminary phrases, not just after steeplechase)? Would the period of R&T after the high stress of steeplechase obscure the signs (if there are any)?


That has to get a big UNKNOWN as an answer, as there are (as far as I'm aware) NO data collected on this specific thing. As to phase C obscuring signs of what may have happened on steeplechase--again, it's possible. But since there are no "set" parameters of vital signs in the 10 minute box to say "go" or "no go", it would be very difficult to say if there are definite "red flag" vital statistics. Now what WOULD be interesting is a retrospective review of 10 minute box data for horses KNOWN to have problems on phase D. Are there hints of problems to come? There we might get some clues, but what good would it do now that the long format is gone? :(

Would you say that the vet that explained to us that the hemorrhage starts as a smaller bleed with a concurrent spike in HR was correct?


I'm not going to second guess a vet that specializes in the topic, but it is certainly VERY plausible that a "herald" of a significant bleed would be an increase in HR. Or is it the other way around? Could atrial fibrillation occurring suddenly (which virtually always causes a big increase in HR) CAUSE a bleed? This is a big "chicken and egg" question for me, personally.

Would you say that if you caught a pulmonary hemorrhage in its beginning stages there would be any chance of saving the animal?

Boy, I don't know. I know it's tedious to hear "it depends" all the time, but it really does. Small bleed, get the pressures down quickly? Sure, the bleeding would very likely slow or stop. Big bleed, stressed animal that can't get its pressures down? Not as promising. Horse with history of multiple bleeds? You've probably got lungs that are not only more prone to bleeding AGAIN (scarring, etc.) but a "system" that is less forgiving. Picture the snowball effect.

Why not at Prelim and above mandatory scoping of any horse showing blood at nostrils, just like racing.

IMO there are NO bad ideas on this topic, but showing blood at the nostrils and saying "this horse is a bleeder" is very, very specific but not sensitive. There are a VAST number of bleeders that never show blood at the nostrils. How to find THEM?

I'd very much like to see all "TEAM" horses scoped after a maximal gallop, for starters. Not that team horses are more important, but the funding is probably there for that. Then move on to all upper level (***/****) horses. Voluntary at first, but perhaps mandatory for all "three day" events. At the very least, the data would be very, very useful going forward. Any positive finding would, of course, be a management issue: mandatory retirement from "starred" events? The ramifications are huge, and messy, but so is eventing these days. :(

[Bensmom]

wow -- dw, thanks so much, both for answering our questions here and for participating in the study topic. We will be very interested in what the panel thinks as you guys discuss this issue.

Also interesting is that every OTTB that I've come across and seen the papers has been stamped to run on Lasix, whether or not there has been any actual bleeding. For instance, Sam raced on it, though from what we can determine, he never had an actual bleed -- why? Is it used as a preventative, or ?

One of the best things in endurance riding is the vet checks where there are established official parameters to which a horse must return to be allowed to continue -- the elevated HR is a sign of so many things, though universally none of them good things, that if you pull a horse that stays elevated, and examine them further it is never a bad thing. I've seen the HR stay up because of metabolic distress, pain such as lameness pain and other assorted causes -- I wonder if there is any way such a check could be instituted in our sport?

Just brainstorming,

libby

[RunForIt]

wow -- dw, thanks so much, both for answering our questions here and for participating in the study topic. We will be very interested in what the panel thinks as you guys discuss this issue.

Also interesting is that every OTTB that I've come across and seen the papers has been stamped to run on Lasix, whether or not there has been any actual bleeding. For instance, Sam raced on it, though from what we can determine, he never had an actual bleed -- why? Is it used as a preventative, or ?

One of the best things in endurance riding is the vet checks where there are established official parameters to which a horse must return to be allowed to continue -- the elevated HR is a sign of so many things, though universally none of them good things, that if you pull a horse that stays elevated, and examine them further it is never a bad thing. I've seen the HR stay up because of metabolic distress, pain such as lameness pain and other assorted causes -- I wonder if there is any way such a check could be instituted in our sport?

Just brainstorming,

libby

just going to ask the same thing. both Rasta and Witchy have Lasix stamped on their papers...

[Clear Blue]

The endurance community runs on a lot of volunteer effort (including veterinarians).

If the USEA/USEF can establish a protocol they want to follow, it may be easy to accomplish with a solicitation to the AAEP for volunteer veterinarians to run an endoscope "station" post X-country. If it could be carried out under the FEI veterinarian's supervison (w/o requiring FEI status) I don't think it would be too hard to get volunteers.

[asanders]

Also interesting is that every OTTB that I've come across and seen the papers has been stamped to run on Lasix, whether or not there has been any actual bleeding. For instance, Sam raced on it, though from what we can determine, he never had an actual bleed -- why? Is it used as a preventative, or ?

libby

You can't just use Lasix on a race horse without a vet confirming them as a bleeder, at least not in any racing jurisdiction that I know of. That said, of course I can't vouch for the absolute integrety of every vet in the system. OTOH, some vets pretty much think all race horses bleed at least a little, so it isn't THAT type of ethical problem for them to sign off any horse for Lasix...
Some trainers think that thicker blood=greater iron concentration=better O2 carrying, so they want horses on Lasix with nothing to do with bleeding airway. Not saying there is any sense to it, it is just one of many motivations for getting a horse on Lasix at the track. IMHO it should be banned, but I'm not sure it is accomplishable, and racing has other problems it could work on too.

[bosox]

How many of our UK counterparts (in the upper levels) have lost horses to EIPH?

We have an unusually large number in the past few months go down in our corner of the horseworld. Did Europe go through a rash like this---or is it SPECIFIC to our horses and their training/conditioning/breeding or lack their of...

[TampaBayEquine]

It is not terribly expensive to get your own horse scoped. I believe it falls somewhere between 100-200 $ range depending on the vet. Concerned owners could arrange to have their own horses scoped whether or not the horse has had visable blood in the nostrils. You would need to organize the timing with your vet such that your horse is scoped immediately after hard exercise ( ie, racehorses go out and train/ gallop and the vet meets them directly after while the horse is still blowing hard). The horse does have to be put under some pressure.... It may not catch all of them, but potentially could identify some, esp if the horse has had any fitness, lack of enthusiasm issues....Just a thought and a vote for early detection....

[RunForIt]

Other questions for thought (though many of you may already know the answers - if so, please POST!!)

is EIPH occurring in all breeds or mostly TB or TB crosses?
Is it occurring more in OTTBs than TBs that have never raced?
at which levels of eventing would the stress cause this bleeding and possible EIPH?

[pwynnnorman]

Didn't McKinleigh bleed pretty badly after The Fork year before last? And Prince Panache had a heart issue and went on to win Rolex. Would those examples possibly mitigate some of the resistance that might arise if endoscopy became a more widely used (er, like, "official") practice?

[RunForIt]

Please don't laugh at what I'm writing...a lot of this info is starting to make other stuff in my life make sense.

Years ago, when I was training hard in running, once/week a group of us (usually 7 men and 3 women) went out on a hard 10 mile run as part of our training schedule. The course was quite hilly - actually part of the old Atlanta Marathon course. The women averaged 6:30/mile, sometimes faster, never slower - the men 6:15/mile. I had nose bleeds every week - ONLY on the 10 mile runs! No nose bleeds during track work outs (think intervals) which were very strenuous but under the watchful eye and stopwatch of our coach, a former Olympic medalist at the marathon. Makes me wonder...

[deltawave]

Nosebleeds are not pulmonary bleeds! Humans do not get EIPH, period. The only exception, I guess, possibly being in the setting of serious rheumatic heart disease, which is a heart valve issue, not a lung issue.

Relax, your nosebleeds were probably just . . . nosebleeds. :)

[Alibhai's Alibar]

How many of our UK counterparts (in the upper levels) have lost horses to EIPH?

We have an unusually large number in the past few months go down in our corner of the horseworld. Did Europe go through a rash like this---or is it SPECIFIC to our horses and their training/conditioning/breeding or lack their of...


Just throwing this out there since it might not be relevant... in Europe, horses cannot race on Lasix/Salix so one theory could be that there are fewer bleeders in European bloodlines. I'm not sure about EIPH in breeds other than TBs.

[RunForIt]

Nosebleeds are not pulmonary bleeds! Humans do not get EIPH, period. The only exception, I guess, possibly being in the setting of serious rheumatic heart disease, which is a heart valve issue, not a lung issue.

Relax, your nosebleeds were probably just . . . nosebleeds. :)

Many thanks, you never fail to either make me laugh, or get calm. Wasn't overly worried as my "training" doesn't come close to "yesteryear" - do love Bruce singing "Glory Days" Ha!

[Plumb Loco]

Could the force of a fall cause a pulmonary hemorrhage in a horse that is already laboring heavily?

Most of the recent equine deaths ruled as pulmonary hemorrhages involved serious falls. Has anyone looked into the possibility that the trauma of a fall may have cause a laboring horse who may have been bleeding, even a small amount, to rupture into a pulmonary hemorrhage?

[maxdog]

I believe it's more like the pulmonary hemmhorage causes the fall, if I'm not mistaken. They start to bleed out very quickly....because they have such big hearts, they try to jump for us.....then fall.

[flyingchange]

Yeah, but the thing is that this horse jumped because he was being obedient. He tried to stop, but his rider kicked on. And so he died. It has a familiar ring to it.

[sm]

Just throwing this out there since it might not be relevant... in Europe, horses cannot race on Lasix/Salix so one theory could be that there are fewer bleeders in European bloodlines. I'm not sure about EIPH in breeds other than TBs.

I don't understand this comment, the EIPH horses to date are not US TBs. Did anyone look at all pedigrees to see a common sire line? A little hard I know, since I can't find that the FEI is tracking the EIPH horses. They seem to be lumping all falls at fences together.

[Picasso]

I really think what is missing is the vet checks...not that the horses/riders arent prepared...

In this case, this might be key. If we want to look at long v. short being the issue, we should see how the training has changed between the two. Are the UL riders conditioning their horses any differently as a result? I don't know the answer to this, but we have a lot of UL riders on this board. Care to answer? Has your training/conditioning program changed with the change to the short format?

[bosox]

Anyone know why Tigger Too was W from Southern Pines II?

[Plumb Loco]

I believe it's more like the pulmonary hemmhorage causes the fall, if I'm not mistaken. They start to bleed out very quickly....because they have such big hearts, they try to jump for us.....then fall.

If this were true wouldn't you expect more horses to drop on the galloping track between fences rather than after having fallen at a fence?

[deltawave]

There are one or two abstracts circulating around out there discussing the possible transmission of impact/pounding into the chest cavity being implicated in EIPH. As far as I've been able to dig into it, this theory is based on necropsy findings of lung damage in certain areas of the lungs that correspond to areas where force is transmitted up through the chest wall and also there are some computer simulations backing up the theory. But theory it remains.

Whether bleeding causes falls or falls cause bleeding is yet ANOTHER "chicken or egg" question that is unanswered. NO question should be brushed aside in this knowledge gap. Although I'm really, really skeptical of any putative role of supplements, etc. as was mentioned earlier, I still think it deserves some data collection.

What is needed is a VERY comprehensive, retrospective (hopefully prospective "examples" of horse deaths will stop happening soon!!!) look at the horse deaths, with a very thorough collection of ALL SORTS of data, including feed, training and conditioning methods, supplements, alternative treatments, turnout, travel time to events, use of FLAIR strips, type of bit, tack, (are flash nosebands problematic?), timing of the last hard conditioning run, the last XC run, time of day, etc. etc. etc. It's called "data dredging" and indeed it is, but sometimes something worthwhile can be dredged up. :)

[yellowbritches]

In this case, this might be key. If we want to look at long v. short being the issue, we should see how the training has changed between the two. Are the UL riders conditioning their horses any differently as a result? I don't know the answer to this, but we have a lot of UL riders on this board. Care to answer? Has your training/conditioning program changed with the change to the short format?
Of the UL riders I have talked to, and of things I have read, most do the same amount and type of conditioning that they did for long formats. In fact, while we weren't talking about conditioning per say the other day, during a conversation with a UL recently about schooling, etc, he did mention his 45 minute trots he does and his gallops (which I have watched....they gallop a lot). Obviously, he is just one of many riders. But I know others who haven't changed a thing, or may have changed things a bit (more sprint work possibly) but are still doing as much as they did before.

I am heartsick over the loss of Tigger. While the loss of Frodo, Quiet Man, Direct Merger, and Rowdy were all painful, Tigger strikes a nerve with me, as I knew him personally and got to hang with him and DOC at Stonehall. He and DOC gave me a "private show" of some of the Parelli stuff a few years ago, and when DOC was still competing Tigger and our crazy chestnut was still going, there was an ongoing joke among us and OCET about how Tigger and Ruby were long lost twins (they are extremely similar in both looks and type...right down to their freckles on their blazes). While I have been sad and have gotten choked up a bit over recent events, yesterday was the first time I've gone home and truly weeped over the loss of another fantastic horse. Tigger was a very cool guy, both when he was doing his thing, running and jumping, and just hanging out. :cry: I am counting the days till the safety summit.

[blackwly]

Of the UL riders I have talked to, and of things I have read, most do the same amount and type of conditioning that they did for long formats. In fact, while we weren't talking about conditioning per say the other day, during a conversation with Stephen Bradley about schooling, etc, he did mention his 45 minute trots he does and his gallops (which I have watched....they gallop a lot). Obviously, he is just one of many riders. But I know others who haven't changed a thing, or may have changed things a bit (more sprint work possibly) but are still doing as much as they did before.



If he's doing 45 minute trots on CCI** and above horses, that is a big change. My long-format CCI** horses did 90 minute trots during their conditioning before the event, and I would say that was about average. Phase A+C of a long format CCI**** was between 90 and 120 minutes. 45 minute trot sets at home will NOT get you prepared for that.

[yellowbritches]

If he's doing 45 minute trots on CCI** and above horses, that is a big change. My long-format CCI** horses did 90 minute trots during their conditioning before the event, and I would say that was about average. Phase A+C of a long format CCI**** was between 90 and 120 minutes. 45 minute trot sets at home will NOT get you prepared for that.

The thing with conditioning programs is that everyone does it differently. You can probably ask 5 different riders how they prepare for a three day and you'll get 10 different answers! It tends to be a very personal thing and everyone does it a little differently and often vary their personal ideas for each horse, too. And, like I said, we weren't talking about schooling...he could have been using the 45 minute trot as just an example in whatever it was were talking about.

[annikak]

I have been thinking about EIPH for a long time, just as a horse person, nothing "scientific" in my thinking. But I ask a lot of questions...;)

Some things that I learned from one of the researchers at MSU is that EIPH is linked already to heart arrythmias...not sure what the link is, but...they know there is a relationship.

Leads me to think it might be caught in the 10 min box.

the origin of the blood can be from several different areas. It is not "always" from one area.

Leads me to think that maybe falling could indeed cause something that looked like EIPH but was something else.

McKinlegh (sp?) did bleed at Rolex a few years ago- so, stands to reason that he might do so again- but I don't even want to speculate on that...he has been fine thus far.

HOWEVER leads me to wonder if we might be able to save a horses life and possibly a riders fall if we knew that there were warning signs and knew what to look for. They got him stopped...would a heart monitor be something that would allow us to check something and see if our horse was NQR?

DM did have a cardiac episode of some sort at Rolex in 2007.

It is my understanding that Jamie was on fluids before running xc-something was already NQR with him.

Running an event horse on lasix would be very undesirable due to what it does- it dehydrates, and event horses don't need that!:yes:

I really want answers to all of this and am thankful to those that are working on it. The one thing I do know is that once we have the answers, we will use them. That makes this all worthwhile.

[topaz731]

The thing with conditioning programs is that everyone does it differently. You can probably ask 5 different riders how they prepare for a three day and you'll get 10 different answers! It tends to be a very personal thing and everyone does it a little differently and often vary their personal ideas for each horse, too. And, like I said, we weren't talking about schooling...he could have been using the 45 minute trot as just an example in whatever it was were talking about.

I would just be careful with names, especially when conditioning,etc. seems to be such a sensitive and prominent issue. He tailors the fitness needs of his and his student horses to their levels and to what they are working towards. Mine has changed several times in just the past several months- even slightly sometimes. These days with it being such a front and center topic, or unless you are under a specific program yourself with a trainer- I would avoid the guessing and the use of names.

[CiegoStar]

Yeah, but the thing is that this horse jumped because he was being obedient. He tried to stop, but his rider kicked on. And so he died. It has a familiar ring to it.

I'm beginning to see it like a Venn diagram now. One circle containing up-and-coming, talented young riders. The other circle containing UL event horses that are prone to some kind of medical catastrophe, unbeknownst to most. Where those two groups intersect, we see disaster after disaster. Riders like Becky Holder pull up when something is NQR like she did at Rolex 2007.

Not that this precludes more experienced riders from "kicking on" when they shouldn't, like Amy, to whom I think you're referring.

[grayarabs]

I have a question regarding nosebands. No, I don't event - and have never ridden distance at speed so forgive me if I am way out of line. Looking at the photos of horses competing I note the flash, crank and figure-8 nosebands - designed to keep the horse's mouth closed. Do these 'added' nosebands impair breathing in any way - which could cause fatigue? I have never liked the flash - removed them from my bridles - and it seems to be I note that when riders dismount - one of the first things they do is loosen or unhook the nosebands - which makes me wonder.............

[deltawave]

Me, too. One of the most vulnerable parts of the horse's airway is just above the nostrils. Although I give a big :rolleyes: when I see a horse going Novice wearing a FLAIR strip, they do seem to offer some measurable benefits to a horse really galloping near the redline. Can't help but wonder if a tight flash (like Tigger was wearing) makes a difference.

[RunForIt]

Me, too. One of the most vulnerable parts of the horse's airway is just above the nostrils. Although I give a big :rolleyes: when I see a horse going Novice wearing a FLAIR strip, they do seem to offer some measurable benefits to a horse really galloping near the redline. Can't help but wonder if a tight flash (like Tigger was wearing) makes a difference.

Keep all the "wonderings" in a list...no one wondered out loud before dear Tigger died yesterday - damnit.

[ZEBE]

Hello Run for It... I sent you a private post .. just catching up. Barbara C-K ...

[lbennet6]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=1210705083535117&ShowArticle_ID=1211105081708099

abdominal aortic rupture...

RIP Tigger Too

[maxdog]

As a healthcare worker, I can tell you...not much kills you faster than a ruptured AAA (abdominal aortic aneurysm). I have faith Tigger Too never knew what hit him and he continues hi great cross-country run in heaven :winkgrin:

[Stay Gold]

Thanks for posting that link.

Nice to hear DOC's thoughts of everything.

RIP Tigger.

[2016 RoyalCrown KTug]

yes thanks! stopped using in Europe due to it having effects similar to Heparin.

What are these effects??? :confused:

How unbearably sad. I saw TT go by at the Party Bar (I think it was called this :confused: ) just a minute or two before the accident. He looked fantastic, they were having a wonderful go. I am so sorry for lauren and all involved with this special horse in TT. Its not easy to ever loose a horse, but its even harder when it happens underneath you. I hope Lauren knows we are all here for her, this is the time when she really needs everyone to stand behind her. TT was just a year older than Tug, and these two incredible but older horses passed doing what they LOVED with all of their heart. Truly. They would not have wanted to die from Colic at New Bolton or to have been struck by lightning god forbid... TT tried with all of his might, with his very last ounce of energy he tried to make it over that lighthouse for lauren. RIP TT. I know youre over the Rainbow Bridge with Tug and Eight Belles and Task Force... the list unfortunately goes on and on...

GODSPEED TT and JINGLES to all involved

Gillian

[gully's pilot]

I'm glad to know it was something like this--thanks for posting the link.

[deltawave]

Although both are rapidly fatal, a rupture is NOT precisely the same thing as an aneurysm.

[Mariequi]

David loaned TT to Tori Nahorniak and me to use for the groundwork part of one of his clinics in Lexington a number of years ago. Such a responsive horse. What a sweet, sweet horse. Those cute little spots down his nose. Such a shame.

[silver2]

How many of our UK counterparts (in the upper levels) have lost horses to EIPH?

We have an unusually large number in the past few months go down in our corner of the horseworld. Did Europe go through a rash like this---or is it SPECIFIC to our horses and their training/conditioning/breeding or lack their of...
You must remember that the East Coast of the US where most of the incidents discussed in this thread have occured is much, much hotter and more humid during competitions than in most of Europe (or the west coast of the US for that matter). And with the recent droughts years and record high temps it's only getting more so. Temps and humidity are a huge factor in all endurance sports.

Not saying it's the cause but it's a reason that a straight comparison probably isn't possible.

[CoolMeadows]

I'd imagine that a horse with an abdominal aortic rupture would have dropped on the spot. :confused: And it says he died shortly after hitting the ground... so is it rumour that he was euthanized and also suffered a broken neck? I just don't understand what's going on with these ruptures, pulmonary bleeds, etc... I'm having a really hard time picturing a horse who ruptured his aorta in two places continuing over a jump. Poor Tigger, what a saint he was.

[Vegas Sky]

It was very nice to hear DOCs thoughts on the whole thing...it must have been very hard for him...

But am I the only one who was disturbed by the fact that there was no mention on the problems of short format when he was talking about topics for the safety summit??

[Highflyer]

FWIW, the only time I have seen an aortic rupture, the horse (a 17 yr old broodmare w/ 3 wk old foal by her side, in a stall for the night) took almost 10 minutes to die. It was long enough that we were on the phone with a neighbor who was a cow vet, trying to get her to come over and euthanize--but not long enough for the vet to even get out the door.

I'd imagine that a horse with an abdominal aortic rupture would have dropped on the spot. :confused: And it says he died shortly after hitting the ground... so is it rumour that he was euthanized and also suffered a broken neck? I just don't understand what's going on with these ruptures, pulmonary bleeds, etc... I'm having a really hard time picturing a horse who ruptured his aorta in two places continuing over a jump. Poor Tigger, what a saint he was.

[Vuma]

Can anyone elaborate on whether or not any "warning signs" in HR would possibly preclude an abdominal aortic rupture or EIPH? If so, what would be the "red zone" in relation to HR?

Cyclists wear HR monitors allowing their trainers, even reporters, to gauge their current level of fitness and expected performance. And while each cyclist has found their own baseline for gauging his/her own max. performance, (through training rides/data collection) there is a rate at which the body is in jeopardy regardless of the genetic superiority of that athlete. Knowing a cyclist’s HR in competition in real time allows both trainers and cyclist to confidently know if they can push harder.

Could it be sensible to have horses training and competing with a HR monitor? Establish a baseline for each particular horse, then in competition have someone (other than the rider who is busy enough) supervising this data in real time. If the horse reaches the "red zone", the horse is stopped, possibly by jump judges or officials on course, as the information comes through. (The "red zone" being the standardized and established HR range posing imminent danger to the physiology of “any” horse if it continues.) Could this possibly save horses? Could this, at least, prevent a physically incapable horse of attempting a jump and thereby save riders lives by preventing rotational falls?

At the very least, if only used by riders for their horse’s sake, this could evaluate a rider’s confidence that, a.) they know, overtime, what the normal anaerobic fitness level is for their horse, when it can be pushed, or when it’s at its max, and b.) know that their horse is quantifiably fit (as it relates to HR fitness) coming into an event (or not). (Not suggesting recent horse fatalities were due to unfit horses.)

If nothing else, the use of HR monitors in training would allow us to more intimately “know” our horses, their capabilities and their physical warning signs. We’re all so concerned with icing legs after stress, supplements for joint health, and other performance enhancing and safety measures such as using nasal strips and greasing legs. I know there are some riders out there who are seriously watching their horses in relation to pulse and respiration. This could assist them further and imagine the implications for research through data collection.

[3Day-Eventer]

Does anyone know why EIPH always seems to effect horses just on the takeoff to a jump? You dont hear about horses dropping in between fences. Why is that?

[BigRuss1996]

According to that press release or whatever from DOC poor Tigger had had 3 COLIC SURGERIES!!!!! What the H#LL is he doing going around a *** after 3 Colic surgeries! What is wrong with these people!! I was told by New Bolton after one they shouldn't be jumping over 3 feet! (and yes I know many showjumpers go on and show and jump after...but I don't think they've had 3 surgeries) Then he goes onto say that it was to be Tiggers last event and at least he died doing what he loved! ...yeah ...well it was his last event... because you all couldn't let him just be retired.
Also.... I am wondering do horses really say "Gee I love doing this sport ??"...No... I think they do what we ask them because they trust us and they want to PLEASE us! They would be just as happy going Novice as they are going Advanced they really don't know the difference. No horse has ever said..."Wow... I really want to be on the Olympic Team when I grow up!"

http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=1210705083535117&ShowArticle_ID=1211105081708099

abdominal aortic rupture...

RIP Tigger Too

[cmannphoto]

I'd imagine that a horse with an abdominal aortic rupture would have dropped on the spot. :confused: And it says he died shortly after hitting the ground... so is it rumour that he was euthanized and also suffered a broken neck?

Let’s stop the RUMORS right here and RIGHT NOW!!! He was not euthanized. I was right there and the vet wanted to sedate him so they could get Lauren out from under him and he passed away soon after. He was still flailing a little till John Williams got there to hold his head down. The vet was there very soon afterwards as others tired to hold Tigger’s legs from hitting Lauren in the head.

If the rupture happened 50 yards sooner he would have dropped, but because of his experience and the downhill momentum, is what carried him over the fence. I was asked by the officials to see the photos that I had so that they could determine what in FACT did happen. I was told that they wanted to see more images of him approaching the fence, because that is where the problem started, not the fence.

Charles Mann
Charles Mann Photography

[RunForIt]

According to that press release or whatever from DOC poor Tigger had had 3 COLIC SURGERIES!!!!! What the H#LL is he doing going around a *** after 3 Colic surgeries! What is wrong with these people!! I was told by New Bolton after one they shouldn't be jumping over 3 feet! (and yes I know many showjumpers go on and show and jump after...but I don't think they've had 3 surgeries) Then he goes onto say that it was to be Tiggers last event and at least he died doing what he loved! ...yeah ...well it was his last event... because you all couldn't let him just be retired.
Also.... I am wondering do horses really say "Gee I love doing this sport ??"...No... I think they do what we ask them because they trust us and they want to PLEASE us! They would be just as happy going Novice as they are going Advanced they really don't know the difference. No horse has ever said..."Wow... I really want to be on the Olympic Team when I grow up!"

Tigger died doing what he was trained to do: - be obedient, be a good boy.

[BigRuss1996]

Yes...how sad for him.. RIP Tigger


Tigger died doing what he was trained to do: - be obedient, be a good boy.

[DizzyMagic]

According to that press release or whatever from DOC poor Tigger had had 3 COLIC SURGERIES!!!!! What the H#LL is he doing going around a *** after 3 Colic surgeries! What is wrong with these people!! They tell you after one they shouldn't be jumping over 3 feet! Then he goes onto say that it was to be Tiggers last event and at least he died doing what he loved! ...yeah ...well it was his last event... because you all couldn't let him just be retired.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Tigger did Rolex with David even after his colic surgeries. I don't always agree with David, but I can't question his care for or his commitment to his horses and their well-being.



Also.... I am wondering do horses really say "Gee I love doing this sport ??"


Yes, they do. If you're ever lucky enough to see fences between the ears of a horse like Tigger, who loved his work, loved to solve the puzzles, and loved to use his body to the fullest extent, you won't have to ask this question.

Emily

[CoolMeadows]

Interesting. So aortic rupture does not = instant death then and this didn't happen as he slammed the fence. Thanks for the confirmation that he wasn't euthanized, anyone know about the rumor of a broken neck?

And the first (and I'm sure, not the last) article hits the web: http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/jaffer/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/121048231226610.xml&coll=1&thispage=1

[cmannphoto]

Why don't we wait until the final necropsy results are in, because from what David said today a broken neck would have been the least of Tigger’s problems. By the time Tigger was going over the fence he was not in control of his body.

[BigRuss1996]

Actually I have...ever hear of "Pirate Lion"...We owned him and I rode him after he was injured and when we were bringing him back he was as happy doing the lower levels when he first started out as he was once he got back to the upper levels. He was also just as happy going out hacking and jumping 3 rails. He just wanted to please and he like to jump and as all horses he liked to run (though wasn't such a fan of dressage..ha ha).



Yes, they do. If you're ever lucky enough to see fences between the ears of a horse like Tigger, who loved his work, loved to solve the puzzles, and loved to use his body to the fullest extent, you won't have to ask this question.

Emily

[CoolMeadows]

Why don't we wait until the final necropsy results are in, because from what David said today a broken neck would have been the least of Tigger’s problems. By the time Tigger was going over the fence he was not in control of his body.

How repulsive. Poor old soul. :(

[dressagetraks]

A friend once had a horse died of a rupture. He suddenly broke to a walk, then stopped in the middle of a dressage session. She nudged him, and he tried to start up again but felt a bit NQR in his response to her leg, and he was a horse who loved his work, totally unlike him to stall out or feel sluggish. She stopped him instantly, got off, and walked him a few feet, watching his legs. Still NQR, but not legs. She loosened girth, and while she was loosening it, horse collapsed in the ring. Died a few minutes later before vet could ever get there. Had she not dismounted when she did, he would have fallen on her about 30 seconds later.

[DizzyMagic]

Actually I have...ever hear of "Pirate Lion"...We owned him and I rode him after he was injured and when we were bringing him back he was as happy doing the lower levels when he first started out as he was once he got back to the upper levels. He was also just as happy going out hacking and jumping 3 rails. He just wanted to please and he like to jump and as all horses he liked to run (though wasn't such a fan of dressage..ha ha).

Mine (Half Magic - belonged to Phyllis Dawson) was happy carting me around novice, but he *always* looked longingly at the big stuff. I believe he liked the challenge to his mind, not just the size, but the complexity of the courses he used to do. I know that's how Tigger was too - he loved having his mind stimulated.

I'll stand by my agreement with David on this. No one wanted Tigger to die, but he was without doubt doing what he loved the most - and that qualifies as a silver lining for some of us.

Emily

[cmannphoto]

Yes, they do. If you're ever lucky enough to see fences between the ears of a horse like Tigger, who loved his work, loved to solve the puzzles, and loved to use his body to the fullest extent, you won't have to ask this question.

Emily


I have been photographing equine sports for over 25 years and I have to agree with Emily. I have seen a lot of horses compete because they like to. You can see it in their eyes and ears. They want to do it and they want to please their human counterpart. You are not going to make it to this level of competition with a horse that does not like doing their sport.

I have personally seen a horse get upset because he could only run one hurdle race. He threw a fit in the trailer as we watch a couple races after his.

Charles Mann
Charles Mann Photography

[Gnep]

Anybody take a real close look at the pictures PN has posted, take a real good look and tell me what ya all see.

[deltawave]

The rate of bleeding from a rupture of ANY vessel depends on how high the cardiac output is at the time of the rupture. Standing in a field = output minimal = long time to bleed out. Maxed out heart rate and blood pressure at time of rupture = VERY quick.

[3Day-Eventer]

Anybody take a real close look at the pictures PN has posted, take a real good look and tell me what ya all see.

I see YET ANOTHER ROTATIONAL FALL!! Maybe the horse did have heart trouble, but in the end, it rotated and fell.

[riderboy]

I am in the medical field and a leaking AAA is NOT necessarily instantly fatal.Depends on the size of the aneurysm,, location ,size of the leak and how well the leak is "contained" by surrounding tissue. Humans survive a leak long enough to make it to the ER and surgery. If it is a large leak or rupture death can occur in minutes. I know Lauren personally and there is no rider more concerned for the welfare of her horses. She is a sweet kid and an extraordinarily talented rider. It is a devastating loss through no ones fault.

[eponacowgirl]

I see YET ANOTHER ROTATIONAL FALL!! Maybe the horse did have heart trouble, but in the end, it rotated and fell.

The horse was nearly dead when he rotated. Little bit different situation.

[deltawave]

A RUPTURE IS NOT AN ANEURYSM!! For the millionth time. :) A perfectly normal-sized aorta can rupture, dissect, whatever. No aneurysm required. The process of aneurysm formation in humans IS NOT PRESENT IN HORSES. Please, let's be as precise as possible.

[3Day-Eventer]

The horse was nearly dead when he rotated. Little bit different situation.


We dont know that yet.
Gnep asked what we saw.

[BigRuss1996]

Not sure what you are looking for but in the pics it looks as though he was trying his hardest not to crush his rider. He was a very kind horse. Also in the pics at the water he looks funny in the landing one but can't tell if it just the picture.

Anybody take a real close look at the pictures PN has posted, take a real good look and tell me what ya all see.

[Acertainsmile]

Not to take this OT... but I usually say what I think...so here goes.

I breed/train/own TB's for racing, and there has been so much controversey over the TB's running at such a young age, (which by the way I dont run 2 yr olds)...

But to say that at least a horse died doing what they loved to do just doesnt work for me...now if a horse is out in a pasture running or jumping on their own, yes, maybe that would hold water...a true accident...and the horse doing what they "loved". I'm sure if you could ask the equine athletes though, they would rather NOT die.

Lets be honest... these horses are pushed...it's the same in a stretch drive, although the competetiveness in a racehorse running head and head with another can be quite different, the truly competative ones will not need much encouragement to keep fighting.

Just as trainers/owners/breeders are being put under a microscope in the racing world about their (our) practices, so must other diciplines. And I know the Event world is working on this.

As far as bleeding, I was going to bring this up last night, but thought it was innapropriate before a neocropsy was done...however, I did think about it, and during the last few weeks, given the tragedies, it has weighed heavily on my mind.

I have ridden quite a few "bleeders"... sometimes you will hear a gurgling, sometimes not, but you will always feel a bit of a deflation of horse under you.

We scope our horses after a workout, and after races where they didnt finsish well, without other excuses...it is a very simple and effective way to see whats going on... once a horse bleeds, without proper time off they will continue to bleed and it usually gets more severe each time without medication.

Just my two cents.

[JER]

Anybody take a real close look at the pictures PN has posted, take a real good look and tell me what ya all see.

Gnep, was sehen Sie?

[TB or not TB?]

Anybody take a real close look at the pictures PN has posted, take a real good look and tell me what ya all see.

If you look at the first photo, you can tell there's already something wrong with the horse. His nose is touching the jump, and he has a pained expression on his face.

Now HERE is an interesting point: photo number two - his legs ARE out ahead of him, but he cannot or does not catch himself (evidenced in 3). When a horse can get his legs out to save himself, he does; that's why so many falls in stadium jumping don't end up being rotations - the poles fall away so the horse can put those legs out. Looking at the position of his front and hind limbs, he SHOULD have landed awkwardly, but on his feet.

In my best estimation, according to the photos, the episode happened a stride before or right during the takeoff, and the only thing that made him go over was momentum and the desire to obey.

This is NOT an example of a typical rotation.

[SLR]

Gnep, I see the horse's nose on the jump. Amazing how he cleared it and then stayed out of Lauren's way. I think he was careful to the last breath. I was told that he had never had a XC jumping penalty.

[CoolMeadows]

If you look at the first photo, you can tell there's already something wrong with the horse. His nose is touching the jump.

Now HERE is an interesting point: photo number two - his legs ARE out ahead of him, but he cannot or does not catch himself (evidenced in 3). When a horse can get his legs out to save himself, he does; that's why so many falls in stadium jumping don't end up being rotations - the poles fall away so the horse can put those legs out. Looking at the position of his front and hind limbs, he SHOULD have landed awkwardly, but on his feet.

In my best estimation, according to the photos, the episode happened a stride before or right during the takeoff, and the only thing that made him go over was momentum and the desire to obey.

This is NOT an example of a typical rotation.

I don't agree with that - to me it looks like his hind end carried momentum to the side so he was already going to go down on his side. I guess it doesn't matter if he ruptured his aorta in two places as he broke to the trot up the hill or if he did it when he slammed into the fence and "whinnied" (as the article accredits DOC saying), he's still another horse pushed to death on another cross country course. That safety summit can't come soon enough.

[lbennet6]

We dont know that yet.
Gnep asked what we saw.


http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=1210705083535117&ShowArticle_ID=1211105081708099

here's the link again...read the article...

I agree with TB if a horse can get their legs out, then they can save themselves...(especially if they are athletic enough to be jumping around a ***)

[cmannphoto]

I see YET ANOTHER ROTATIONAL FALL!! Maybe the horse did have heart trouble, but in the end, it rotated and fell.

One photo is worth a thousand words. But it does not always tell the whole story. If you look at the top of the light house you will see two remote cameras, one is Amy’s and one is mine. As we looked through our images, we can definitely see he was in trouble before he tried to take off. I can pull a single frame out a sequence and you would think something other then what actually happened. Remember that a single frame can be a fraction of a second, from 1/250 to 1/2500 or more and a lot can happen in between those frames.

[shea'smom]

have been back through the thread and can't figure out what pictures you are discussing, help please?

[3Day-Eventer]

One photo is worth a thousand words. But it does not always tell the whole story. If you look at the top of the light house you will see two remote cameras, one is Amy’s and one is mine. As we looked through our images, we can definitely see he was in trouble before he tried to take off. I can pull a single frame out a sequence and you would think something other then what actually happened. Remember that a single frame can be a fraction of a second, from 1/250 to 1/2500 or more and a lot can happen in between those frames.

I'm sure that he was in trouble before he fell. I acutally hope that he was (not really, I acutally hope that we can figure out how to prevent this from ever happening again). This sport doesnt need another problem with a jump or a rider causing a horse's death. I was just answering Gnep's question. Dont know what he was looking for in the answer, but thats what I saw.
Its a shame that we cant do something to these types of jumps to make them more forgiving. Although I know thats not how XC works. Its just a real shame that each event is having these problems.

Like I asked before why is it that these collapses dont seem to happen between fences, only over them? There must be a reason. Anyone care to guess?

Also, as for if a horse can get its feet in front of it, he can recover. I dont buy that. I think it depends on the momentum that he has coming over the fence, and the angle at which he lands. If he truly landed on his feet maybe, but it could also be that he just kept rotating past his point of balance, like a cartwheel. I dont know, again, just speculating. People fall all the time on their feet, and then keep on rolling forward. I'm sure a horse can do the same, depending on their speed.

[BigRuss1996]

http://horseshow.dotphoto.com/CPViewAlbum.asp?AID=5244727


have been back through the thread and can't figure out what pictures you are discussing, help please?

[dressagetraks]

Link to pictures.

http://horseshow.dotphoto.com/CPViewAlbum.asp?AID=5244727

Warning: They are graphic.

[silver2]

FWIW, the only time I have seen an aortic rupture, the horse (a 17 yr old broodmare w/ 3 wk old foal by her side, in a stall for the night) took almost 10 minutes to die. It was long enough that we were on the phone with a neighbor who was a cow vet, trying to get her to come over and euthanize--but not long enough for the vet to even get out the door.
Over the years, for whatever reason, I've seen or known of quite a few horses that died from this kind of internal bleed, all but one were older and were just standing in the pasture or stall when it happened. Only two of them survived any time at all. All the others were dead as they hit the ground or within a minute or so. Interestingly, many of them were TBs, but certainly not all.

I've always wondered if there might be a genetic pre-disposition in some of them and as they age they simply become more statistically likely to suffer a rupture. So many breeds have a serious genetic bottleneck at some point in their history. Who knows.

ETA, looked at the photos, definitely not a normal fall. So glad the rider is all right, that could have been much worse, he must have tried hard not to kick her. What a good horse.

[DizzyMagic]

Thought 1: So grateful the rider wasn't crushed by his weight or smashed in the head by his hooves.

Thought 2: Sweet, beautiful Tigger... so deeply sad to see him go.

Thought 3: NOT a typical rotational fall. TB or not TB is right - if the horse can get his feet in front of him, he will use them. In the typical rotational fall, his front legs are left behind and he is physically prevented from using them.


Emily

[Little Valkyrie]

Over the years, for whatever reason, I've seen or known of quite a few horses that died from this kind of internal bleed, all but one were older and were just standing in the pasture or stall when it happened. Only two of them survived any time at all. All the others were dead as they hit the ground or within a minute or so. Interestingly, many of them were TBs, but certainly not all.

I've always wondered if there might be a genetic pre-disposition in some of them and as they age they simply become more statistically likely to suffer a rupture. So many breeds have a serious genetic bottleneck at some point in their history.

This is what happened to my first mare. I brought her in from the pasture (unfortunatly the same time we had to put down our ancient trail horse), and as I was walking out, I saw her head fly up, heard a bang, and she was down. She passed in about 3 minutes, and all we could do was keep her calm. When the vet arrived for the other horse, she confirmed that it sounded like a rupture of some kind. (no autopsy to absolutely confirm.) Looking back, there were signs of heart failure (shortness of breath and very stocked up hind legs). This mare was also very abused and negelected before we got her, so who knows what kind of care she recieved her whole life, and was of completely unknown breeding, and was approximatly 21. Sad to see her go, but I am very glad it didn't happen while I was riding her.
RIP Tigger Too

[subk]

Several years ago at Rolex a Canadian horse (Boucanne?) collapsed coming of the Lexington bank with the same condition. I was sitting at the ropes and had a view at almost the exact angle of these pictures. The similarity in these pictures of this fall and how the front legs seemingly never caught the horse on landing and the way the horse then rolled, with how I remembered the Rolex fall is unbelievably similar. I was later told by a medical person/event official that the Canadian horse was believed to have died before landing. Interestingly that horse was coming off a bank, but same fall.

Rather eerie to see both events from such a similar angle.

[nirvana002]

Thought 1: So grateful the rider wasn't crushed by his weight or smashed in the head by his hooves.

Thought 2: Sweet, beautiful Tigger... so deeply sad to see him go.

Thought 3: NOT a typical rotational fall. TB or not TB is right - if the horse can get his feet in front of him, he will use them. In the typical rotational fall, his front legs are left behind and he is physically prevented from using them.


Emily

Thanks for posting the fact that it was not a typical rotational fall. I flew to Mexico with Tigger in 98 (David and I were the only Americans to fly our horses to the Balvanera CCI **) The horse was 7 or 8 at that point. Can we get off the band wagon of crucifying riders right now? Can we give them more than 24 hours to mourn the loss of their partners that meant a hell of alot more to them than they did to you? Hopefully, everyone with their opinions will share them at the meeting in KY, in a productive manner. Pointing fingers doesn't work, all it does is make your fingers tired from typing. I have been on the receiveing end of criticism, it's extremely hurtful, especially when the people criticizing don't know you or the relationship you have with your animals. Hopefully, we can come together as one, as a sport, as a community, and save something we all love so much.

Jill Henneberg

[2016 RoyalCrown KTug]

According to that press release or whatever from DOC poor Tigger had had 3 COLIC SURGERIES!!!!! What the H#LL is he doing going around a *** after 3 Colic surgeries! What is wrong with these people!! I was told by New Bolton after one they shouldn't be jumping over 3 feet! (and yes I know many showjumpers go on and show and jump after...but I don't think they've had 3 surgeries) Then he goes onto say that it was to be Tiggers last event and at least he died doing what he loved! ...yeah ...well it was his last event... because you all couldn't let him just be retired.
Also.... I am wondering do horses really say "Gee I love doing this sport ??"...No... I think they do what we ask them because they trust us and they want to PLEASE us! They would be just as happy going Novice as they are going Advanced they really don't know the difference. No horse has ever said..."Wow... I really want to be on the Olympic Team when I grow up!"


Wow, take a breath for a moment...

Who are you to decide whether or not TT was healthy enough to be competing at the *** level :confused::confused::confused: Obviously everyone around him including his routine vet thought he was. Please, lets not make this thread even worse than it already is having to do with a fatality.

Yes, all serious competition horses are pushed to some degree, but THEY LOVE WHAT THEY DO, THEY ARE (ESP. RACE HORSES) BRED TO RUN AND JUMP, TO COMPETE.

C Mann made the comment about looking at their eyes and ears... that is SO true, go take LOOK AT THEY PICS FROM A HORSE SHOW OR AN EVENT, most of those horses constantly have their ears pricked. Horses have incredible body language IMO... And you CANNOT MAKE a 1200 pound animal jump over hanging logs, into sunken roads and water... really.... they do what they want to do, we cant make them, or force them or tell them they cant have dinner unless they take us around that course tomorrow... THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY LOVE IT!

*Sorry, rant over*

Gillian

[lbennet6]

Thanks for posting the fact that it was not a typical rotational fall. I flew to Mexico with Tigger in 98 (David and I were the only Americans to fly our horses to the Balvanera CCI **) The horse was 7 or 8 at that point. Can we get off the band wagon of crucifying riders right now? Can we give them more than 24 hours to mourn the loss of their partners that meant a hell of alot more to them than they did to you? Hopefully, everyone with their opinions will share them at the meeting in KY, in a productive manner. Pointing fingers doesn't work, all it does is make your fingers tired from typing. I have been on the receiveing end of criticism, it's extremely hurtful, especially when the people criticizing don't know you or the relationship you have with your animals. Hopefully, we can come together as one, as a sport, as a community, and save something we all love so much.

Jill Henneberg

well said.

[indigoecho]

In the other Jersey Fresh thread, Pwynn voiced a question/thought that has been bothering me as well and I feel is worthwhile being brought up in this thread. Without accusing the rider (Lauren) of anything (I don't know her, but everything I have heard is extremely positive, and I am sure that she loved the horse beyond belief) I have to admit that the fall is troublesome to me irregardless of what caused the horse to die. It troubles me that there are several accounts that say he broke to a trot before the fence and then had very little impulsion going into the fence. Now I have evented, but not anywhere near the level that we are talking about today, and I will admit that I will not even begin to imagine the mentality it must take to get around a *** or **** course. That being said, is the "kick on" mentality a detriment when it comes to assessing your horse and making fast decisions in the heat of the moment. This could be a very different discussion if he had fallen on her. I wasn't there, so I don't know how awful or ok he looked before the fence. It just seems to me that there have been a few accidents where a bad fall like this could have been avoided. Amy Tryon was lucky last year that her horse didn't fall going over that last fence, Lauren is lucky Tigger Too did his best to take care of her and didn't land on top of her, and from my own viewpoint at Rolex, I thought the Quiet Man didn't quite look on top of his game before he fell. Again, I am not criticizing individual riders, I am questioning a general mentality. I would love to hear other's opinions on this, as I am definately not in the league of any of these riders.

I also wanted to make a comment about whether or not horses love what they do or not. I wholeheartedly believe that there are horses that absolutely do love going cross country. However, I think you can make a pretty simple analogy with horses and small children that puts this argument in perspective. A little child who loves to swim or do another activity that carries some inherent risk must be monitored carefully. They aren't always capable of making decisions that will be safe, and if you let them, they will push themselves past their abilities, even to their own demise. As a parent or caregiver, it is your job to monitor their safety and make decisions for them that will keep them safe. It is also your job to only put them in situations that are safe for them. I really think that riders need to think the same way for their horses, along with the regulating bodies of the sport.

[Shrapnel]

Thanks for posting the fact that it was not a typical rotational fall. I flew to Mexico with Tigger in 98 (David and I were the only Americans to fly our horses to the Balvanera CCI **) The horse was 7 or 8 at that point. Can we get off the band wagon of crucifying riders right now? Can we give them more than 24 hours to mourn the loss of their partners that meant a hell of alot more to them than they did to you? Hopefully, everyone with their opinions will share them at the meeting in KY, in a productive manner. Pointing fingers doesn't work, all it does is make your fingers tired from typing. I have been on the receiveing end of criticism, it's extremely hurtful, especially when the people criticizing don't know you or the relationship you have with your animals. Hopefully, we can come together as one, as a sport, as a community, and save something we all love so much.

Jill Henneberg


Yes, Very well said!!

[Gnep]

TB,
You got it right, how many have you looked at, or I.

I take DWs explanation, and what those pics show is the very last effort of a very seasoned horse to save himself, not his rider, himself.
I think he broke his neck, too.
Aint a rotational, period.

[UNCeventer]

First of all, Condolences to all involved. Prayers to Lauren and the O'Connors.

Second, I think it is a fabulous question "WHAT HAS CHANGED THIS YEAR?" Seriously, I feel that the roads and tracks were more of a safety thing than we realized. With that being pulled, the consequences are showing at the upper levels.

I feel we need someone with some kind of "in" to actually speak up to the powers that be. Maybe one of the ULRs can talk of how this has changed things and how it is a safety issue.

[LotsofSlots]

Those pictures show a horse that was dying before he jumped. He had that look. I have worked in a hospital for 25 years now and have taken care of people dying from ruptued blood vessals. If you blow two holes in your Aortic you do not have much of a chance. Esp if you are doing a what he was doing.

I do wonder if breeding horses that "bleed" for racing is making the TBs more likly to do this. It would make sense to me. Eventing gets many horses form the racing world. If the quality of the American TB is going down hill (as dicussed on the racing pages) it would show up in eventing. I would think esp in eventing because you use the horses into middle age.

I like the idea of knowing your horses HR like what they do in many arobic classes. I do not think it would have saved this horse though. Do any of you rember the horse many years ago by Seatle Slew who won the Derby then a week later droped dead after a simple work out while being given a bath? I think his name was Swale. Some things you just can not predict.

[poltroon]

So maybe the next immediate change should be to get heart monitors on every horse going XC ASAP and collecting the data, and set them up with some sort of alarm that the rider can hear and perhaps that can go to the event control. What are the obstacles to this: how much $$ and how long?

I still wonder if EIPH deaths and other falls at jumps in the same course are connected, in that there's some stress in the course that just makes the horse's body a little too tired or adds extra pressure to the CV system.

I would expect a heart monitor would pick up distress other than EIPH, too, like a horse that was feeling overfaced.

As for kicking on - I'll tell you, that's been drilled into me since I was 8 years old riding hunter school horses. The horse hesitates, you kick on, right there, right then. Every time I've ever done it it's been because the horse was looking at something. The kick on reflex is instinctive and it has to be - a second later is too late. I'm not sure it can be obvious to a rider that a horse is in distress until he is repeatedly unresponsive (rather than resistant) to the aids.

[indigoecho]

As for kicking on - I'll tell you, that's been drilled into me since I was 8 years old riding hunter school horses. The horse hesitates, you kick on, right there, right then. Every time I've ever done it it's been because the horse was looking at something. The kick on reflex is instinctive and it has to be - a second later is too late. I'm not sure it can be obvious to a rider that a horse is in distress until he is repeatedly unresponsive (rather than resistant) to the aids.

I totally understand what you are saying. And I think that is a completely appropriate response in most situations. But I am starting to think that *** and **** courses should not be approached like most riding situations. There is a huge problem when a small mistake costs you your life or your horse's life. I guess that goes to show that there needs to be multi-faceted change before these catastrophic events will ebb. Maybe there needs to be a mentality change at that level. HR monitors are looking like not such a bad idea. And I really think that there needs to be a hard look at the course design as well. I was at the basked when Frodo and Laine flipped and it was awful. He didn't take the jump right, any horse could have made that mistake, and no horse should have to die for a mistake like that (rider or horse error). Just my thoughts.

[copper1]

I lived in England for a number of years, deeply involved in hunting and steeplechasing and I remember, way back then, several incidences of horses just dropping dead after a race. Remember when Lucinda Green's horse died at Badminton during her victory lap?
I agree that none of us have the right to point fingers at anybody at this moment in time. Take a deep breath and step back, let the experts sit down and discuss this and get input from those that know the sport the best. If you would feel better with a monitor on your horse, go for it. Can aneurysms be detected before they blow out? Another choice we have is to bundle our horses up in cotton wool and just let them stand in the pasture where they can injure and kill themselves without any help from us! :-)
Our job is to take the best care of our equine partners that we can; prepare them for whatever we do with them the best we can; love them, mourn their loss and be thankful we had them.

[piaffeprincess98]

Does anyone know why EIPH always seems to effect horses just on the takeoff to a jump? You dont hear about horses dropping in between fences. Why is that?

It could be because his heart rate goes up as he approaches a fence.

[thumbsontop]

I also wanted to make a comment about whether or not horses love what they do or not. I wholeheartedly believe that there are horses that absolutely do love going cross country. However, I think you can make a pretty simple analogy with horses and small children that puts this argument in perspective. A little child who loves to swim or do another activity that carries some inherent risk must be monitored carefully. They aren't always capable of making decisions that will be safe, and if you let them, they will push themselves past their abilities, even to their own demise. As a parent or caregiver, it is your job to monitor their safety and make decisions for them that will keep them safe. It is also your job to only put them in situations that are safe for them. I really think that riders need to think the same way for their horses, along with the regulating bodies of the sport.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. There have been a few occasions where I feel that horses obviously were very tired but pushed on anyway. It will inevitably result in catastrophe at some point. We as owners, regardless of sport, need to respect the animals that we are partnering with enough to keep them safe. I am not saying that was the case in Tigger Too, as I haven't seen the photo sequence, nor have I heard results of a necropsy.

I've had the opportunity to see this wonderful horse in person. Wonderful boy!

[pwynnnorman]

As for kicking on - I'll tell you, that's been drilled into me since I was 8 years old riding hunter school horses. The horse hesitates, you kick on, right there, right then. Every time I've ever done it it's been because the horse was looking at something. The kick on reflex is instinctive and it has to be - a second later is too late. I'm not sure it can be obvious to a rider that a horse is in distress until he is repeatedly unresponsive (rather than resistant) to the aids.


NO! :mad:

Again, I am NOT POINTING FINGERS, but dammit, I am pissed off at this. I've been involved deeply in this sport I love since I walked under Mike Plumbs pictures on my way to English class three friggin' times a week as a kid. And while I haven't ridden at the level in quest, blast it all, I've done a TON of riding in my life, and in various capacities, from green horses headed to the track to my own FEI levels dressage horses.

I was even once totally in love with a horse called "Press On Regardless."

But I am FURIOUS at eventers who refuse to understand that there is a time to press on and goddammitthereisatimetofrigginSTOPNOW!!!

I'm not mad at Lauren. She had that friggin' kick on mentality drilled into her just like everyone else...and that is what is WRONG HERE--edited to add: at the highest levels of the sport, not the lower ones where trotting a jump or jumping with insufficient impulsion isn't as dangerous.

There are times when you shoudl not kick on. If it is late in the course and the horse breaks into the trot, that horse is TELLING YOU SOMETHING and dammit you better LISTEN--like Becky Holder listened to Courageous Comet last year at Rolex. If this sport can't get that straight and legislate something FIRM about that attitude, just like, dammit, it quickly and clearly identified a stop as when a horse loses his forward motion in front of the jump--for the reason that jumping from a standstill is dangerous--dammit if the sport can't friggin' SEE THIS NOW, it deserves what it gets.

There was no hope for Tigger, but Tigger SAID SOMETHING. LISTEN, people. Why the heck can't this be learned FAST? What was seen at Badminton around the 22nd jump in horse after horse. What did Amy say she felt in those first few strides. COME ON, people. If you've ridden much at all, you know what I mean: that flat tire feeling, running out of gas, spitting the bit out...those are signs and I'm pissed that eventers seem to take pride in NOT KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE sometimes!!!

Kick on is dead wrong, literally. It'll get you or your horse KILLED. If that horse voluntarily breaks into a trot LATE IN THE COURSE (would you please read that and not ignore it so that the point is not obscured here!!!!!), pull up, period. You've already lost because you are not bringing home the horse you planned to bring home--accept that what happened in your preparation or your ride that day failed in the horsemanship (or just in the circumstance, like a catastrophic injury), even if not in the actual score...accept that, STOP competiting, call it a day, PULL UP! Sure, maybe you could nurse it home, nurse it through the night and finish the event, but this isn't just YOUR FRIGGIN SPORT. It belongs to everyone who loves it and supports it and the selfishness (no, NOT Lauren, please! I'm talking generalities here) which excuse a rider for pushing a horse that is cooked is going to destroy this sport for all of us.

LISTEN to Tigger, an experienced horse who gave his all for the sport. Of course he knew trotting to that jump wouldn't work, but he did was he was asked. SENSITIZE YOURSELVES to the what your horse is saying to you and just as quickly as you take such pride in saying "kick on," just as quickly feel and respond. Respond to what Tigger said, don't question it, don't hesitate: PULL UP. If there is time for you to kick, there is time for you to pull. PULL UP.

[piaffeprincess98]

I took an interesting series of photos of Mike Winter's sticky ride through a corner/mound combination this weekend in the CCI***. There is one shot that seemed eerily similar to Tigger Too's fall, which I also saw. I thought for sure Mike's horse would go down, but he righted himself. Just thought I'd post to show the similarities.

Hope this link works.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26485651@N05/

[annikak]

that was very well said, Copper1. Check your PM's please! ;) And I just read Pwynns response. Horsemanship. We need a dose of it.

I cannot help but wonder what really is different today. I don't think throwing out questions hurt, even if we are often ignored. (thinking back to me wondering of DM's episode at Rolex had anything to do with Redhills and having many say "Nope. different" and then finding out that indeed, there probably is a connection)

So, what HAS changed? Rolex looked the same, or close enough, for the past several years. Long format has been out at the UL's for a few years now, so...that really has not changed...but more time has passed. Has the mentality of the riders changed as they don't condition for that?

Is there any relationship between worming, daily wormers and resistance? I seem to remember that someone said that worming, or lack thereof, might have an impact on some sudden deaths? (pardon my foggy thinking). Could there be some sort of new parasite?

Tuppysmom said they scope a lot of their horses. Perhpas that needs to happen in a more regular fashion for UL horses. Is is part of traditional vet care of those horses? Would it help? You can see on necropsy the lungs of horses that bleed- they look pretty damaged. This must mean it happens more then we know.

And then, finally, I do understand that horses bleed...but is it right? Should those horses be weeded out? NO matter HOW amazing the horse, if he/she has an issue that is serious enough to cause injury to himself or his rider, should he be out there?

Before when I questioned things, people took it personally. This is NOT personal. I believe, and choose to believe, that if we had answers, no one would run a horse that might have an issue that might cause something to happen that would jepordize the rider, horse and in the end, our sport.

That being said, we are human, we make mistakes, and I bet in each and every case mentioned on this BB, every one of the riders would take back those last 30 seconds with years of their lives in trade. We all love these horses, and even if it a way to make a living, no one got into it for the money, cuz guys, the money is just not enough. Normal sports, maybe. Horses, esp event horses? "Show me the money" is not something many would say or hear.

[shea'smom]

Great pics. that does look like the same moment. Look how high Mike's horse's hind end is, yet he recovered.
Poor Tigger.

[riderboy]

Poltroon is right; If you course walk with any upper level rider they will tell you to "kick on". Now I would say obviously there IS a time to call it a day and retire if things are NQR. Hesitancy and tentativeness are really not your friends on course. As I've said, I know Lauren. She is outstanding in every way. So, just thank God that she was not seriously injured. That horse meant everything to her.

[fernie fox]

I took an interesting series of photos of Mike Winter's sticky ride through a corner/mound combination this weekend in the CCI***. There is one shot that seemed eerily similar to Tigger Too's fall, which I also saw. I thought for sure Mike's horse would go down, but he righted himself. Just thought I'd post to show the similarities.

Hope this link works.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26485651@N05/

Glenmorangie is jumping terribly in these pics.

IMO he should have been "Pulled".

He is lurching to the right in each Pic.

Rider is horribly in his face.

If I was a judge[with the power to do so] I would have pulled him off the course.:eek:

But what can you do,the brave horse went on to fourth place.

That was some scary jumping.

[fernie fox]

I also noticed other sequences of pics. that were similar.:eek:

Not exactly,lovely flowing rounds.

If you go back to the Badminton rounds,you see very few folks carrying on after such scary incidents.

I hate these tricky courses,but I am beginning to see a trend,towards finishing ,""no matter what it takes".

Lets put the "horse" first and not let $$$$ cloud our decisions.