Over-nutrition in TB’s

[Katy Watts]

I’ve yet to see a discussion about nutrition as a factor in race track breakdowns. Why? Yes, there are genetic predispositions for DOD (developmental orthopedic disease), but diet is the triggering factor. The warmblood breeders seem to acknowledge the problem, but I guess since they don’t start babies until age 4 it’s not a problem to keep youngsters ribby and growing slow to avoid triggering their genetic tendency towards DOD.

At a recent Kentucky Equine Research conference, work was presented on size, growth rate, metabolic status, and incidence of OCD in TBs. A very brief synopsis:
- big yearlings sell for more money, and earn more money
-smaller horses have more career starts, indicating soundness
- big, fast growing foals have higher incidence of OCD
- TB weanlings in Kentucky with OCD had significantly higher glucose and insulin
-they have a large database to track growth rates to keep them in a safer range.

I spoke at that conference on carb concentration in grass, showing how sugar content doubles when it's cold and sunny for a couple weeks. Do you consider the sugar content in grass when formulating rations for growing youngsters? Or, does it never get cold and sunny in Kentucky? No data exists on sugar content of grass in Kentucky, although fescue is known to be one that accumulates sugar very well when cold.

Now I admit that I would love to find some common cause with the TB industry for advocating for more research on the affects of excess carbohydrates. This is one research area that might be useful to both backyard ponies and the TB race industry. So my question to you TB breeders: Is this something that you care about? Might you throw in with us crossbreed pony owners to campaign for more research on the metabolic consequences of high carbohydrate diets on horses?
Katy

[Calamber]

Also the use of steroids to "fatten up and make glossy" those sales babies. It is almost routine now and does diminish bone density and causes fertility problems. Seems to also point in the direction as a major factor in the high rates of breakdowns and why a horse like the lovely Eight Belles broke both ankles which is also unheard of, it is also might answer why she grew so damned big. But the colts are looking like monster horses now and that is not right either, I do agree about the caloric or carbohydrate and sugar load though, I think we might be onto something. Maybe we should combine these thoughts and submit them to the forum discussion about what racing needs to do to improve. I have not even read that thread yet since I am working so much more. Glad you posted this.

[SEPowell]

Many in racing have been aware of the dangers of anabolic steroids and are pushing to ban its use in both sales and racing. RMTC has looked at this closely and is working hard to get all racing jurisdictions to ban them. Go to bloodhorse.com and do a search for anabolic steroids to see the steps the industry is taking against its use, including testing for them at sales.

[Katy Watts]

Also the use of steroids to "fatten up and make glossy" those sales babies. It is almost routine now and does diminish bone density and causes fertility problems.

Actually, steroid use also causes high insulin, so could be part of the same mechanism causing OCD. Dexamethasone causes high insulin in ponie . Perhaps someone should look in TB's as well? Insulin is being found to do all kinds of bad stuff. The researchers working in Equine Metabolic Syndrome are finding that ponies have all the same symptoms as the human version, which can happen from steroids.

Insulin resistance and diminished glucose tolerance in powerlifters ingesting anabolic steroids

JC Cohen and R Hickman

To examine the effects of anabolic steroid use on glucose homeostasis, we determined oral glucose tolerance and serum insulin response to glucose in 15 male powerlifters, 6 obese men, and 10 sedentary nonobese men. Eight of the powerlifters had self-administered large doses (200 mg/day) of anabolic steroids for periods of up to 7 yr, whereas 7 had never used anabolic steroids. Powerlifters who ingested anabolic steroids had diminished glucose tolerance compared to the nonsteroid- using group, despite having substantially higher postglucose serum insulin concentrations. Postglucose insulin responses were also higher in steroid users than in the sedentary nonobese and sedentary obese reference groups. These results indicate that powerlifters who ingest anabolic steroids have diminished glucose tolerance, which is likely to be secondary to insulin resistance.

[Texarkana]

For all the money and advancements in racing, nutrition seems to be one area where they're still behind the times. (The same is true for many other riding disciplines)

Just recently has this stuff starting to come to the forefront. Hopefully good things will come in the future.

[Calamber]

I think Katy just made it clear with her posting of the studies that the use of steroids should be banned immediately in situations where it is being used to increase racing "aggressiveness" and for fattening babies for sales. It is also used to "sharpen" the appetite for poor doers. And then there is the question about why 30 day tranquilizers are allowed to be used routinely in "bigger", ie richer stables) to calm them down and get the horse acclimated to a new environment. Those tranquilizers are to be used only in emergencies and as far as I know what goes on at tracks like Charles Town and maybe others are that some veterinarians are giving them routinely to calm newly shipped horses. An absolute horror in my view and the vet's should be put under very tight scrutiny for the usage of these two chemical types.

[Bitsymongomery]

Is the product "Body Builder" which is derived from rice bran and used extensively in preparing sales yearlings, also being considered in the ban??

[Calamber]

Anthing which falsely boosts appetite and build muscle should be part of the ban, but this ban will likely not touch those producst which give "added endurance" or "muscle building", I have forgotten the same of the product and what it contained but an acquaintance of mine was using it to give endurance to his pony and commented that he could go all day without rest, not a good sign, someone help me here with what I am trying to think of, I think it is part either the nucleic chain of acids or amino acid complex. Claims also to build red blood cells which are part of the natural defenses of the body to slow down and rest. My memory is failing me right now, I am kerfluffled.

[Equilibrium]

Actually I have been bangning on about nutrition and steroids in just about every thread.

Steroids have to go. An absolute ban is the only way to go. Tell me one good reason they should stay.

I hate fat overfed soft yearlings that haven't been out of the stable in god knows how long unless they are working. More feed does not equal big horse. They are genetically programed on how big they will be. Supporting growth is the only way to go. Over feeding and under feeding both have their fair share of problems. And as I've banged on before, you need to know what's in your forage so you can properly balance a meal.

Terri

[LaurieB]

What started out as an interesting thread about nutrition very quickly degenerated into yet another thread about the use of steroids in sales yearlings. The abuse of steroids in young TBs is presented as fact--and I would really like to know where posters are getting their information from.

For the record: I am totally against the use of steroids, either for racing or sales prep. But--speaking as someone who buys, sells, breeds, and probably sees 3,000-4,000 of the top TB yearlings every year--I don't think the use of steroids (for sales purposes) is nearly as common as this thread makes out. It is not a given among most consignors. All yearlings are not drugged as part of their prep. And believe me, after seeing that many young TBs at the sales each year, it becomes very easy to sort out which ones have had chemical help and which ones haven't.

My yearlings are turned out 16 hours a day, every day, right up until the day they ship to the sale. They are not given drugs to enhance their growth. Their condition is due to plenty of exercise and good nutrition. And I am in no way an oddity in central Kentucky.

Ranting about the use of steroids in sales babies is an easy bandwagon to jump on. I just don't think there's much truth behind all the finger pointing.

[shawneeAcres]

I actually posed this exact question in the "intelligent discussion on eight belles" which turned out not to be! Noone seemed to notice the questions I posed about pushing the sales yearlings, and bone density in general. I am NOT one to bash the racing industry as a whole, I think that most trainers/owners/breeders are not going to jeopardize their hroses. However, in terms of steroid use, I know that to be true, from amny sources, as a fact for soem trainers. As a matter of fact, we purchased a three year old gelding at a sale from a race trainer. He came back and told us, straight to our face (we did NOT ask) that "of course" the horse was on both hormones and steroids, and should be much calmer after the effects wore off. Which when we bought him he was literally on two hind legs (we nicknamed him Striker as he was striking out!). Yes he calmed down after they wore off, lost weight like CRAZY and is now the sweetest four year old and just now starting to really look good again. Not saying everyone does it, but there certainly seem to be many who do and will continue. That may contribute to bone density loss, cannot say for certain, but soemthing to consider

[Equilibrium]

I wasn't trying to start a steroid thing, but in previous post's I pointed out various factors regarding feeding and feeding only.

But many times trainers will say steroids help a horse with his appetite and I think this is a lame excuse. Sorry, I disagree, steroids have no place in racing.

But as far as nutrition is concerned, too many carbs/startches are fed with an increased risk of joint problems. But nutriton goes hand in hand with how they're raised as well. I also realzie it's not possible to probably have horses back home turned out 24/7 for most of the year. The heat alone would have to be a serious consideration. We are lucky in that our climate is more manageable. It's possible to have them out round the clock almost always. But there are those inclined, especially horses who might fetch good sales money, to keep them in more than they should.

I don't mean any nasty tactics or to banter on about things you don't wish to talk about. But I think we are all entitled to our opinions. I don't necessarily think I'm right, just going by things I do that have worked for me and my horses.

Terri

[LaurieB]

I don't mean any nasty tactics or to banter on about things you don't wish to talk about. But I think we are all entitled to our opinions. I don't necessarily think I'm right, just going by things I do that have worked for me and my horses.



I don't have any problem discussing steroid use. I just think that all too often sensational sounding claims are made without any facts to back them up. I guess what I'm trying to understand is why so many posters' experience seems to be so different from mine. If steroid abuse is that widespread among the big sales consignors, I'd love to see them "outed". :yes:

But truthfully. Not because it makes a good rumor, or because 10 other people said it so it must be so.

[Texarkana]

Helping to sway this back to nutrition...

I think part of the problem is that the definition of "good nutrition" has been changing due to the latest research.

I feel many people raising young stock truly mean well and believe they ARE giving their horses "good nutrition." A fancy-formula starchy sweet feed marketed for young horses, the richest hay, access to lush pasture. The horses grow like weeds and look fit and shiny, thus attracting buyers in the sales ring. So everyone thinks they're doing something right.

But, as Katy noted, we've been learning for several years now that this isn't the best way to feed growing horses. It predisposes them to all sorts of metabolic and developmental problems.

A big issue here is that the sales make it difficult for commercial breeders/consignors to enact different methods of raising young stock. That big, mature-looking yearling will always catch the buyer's eye first. But I do believe with more education we can hopefully get everyone on the same page.

[Katy Watts]

That big, mature-looking yearling will always catch the buyer's eye first. But I do believe with more education we can hopefully get everyone on the same page.

Texarkana,
Agree totally, except your last sentance. I don't think education is going to work for most people who are into horses for money or prestige. The laminitis researchers are having to come down hard on show judges who place fat horses, because certain show people are being REWARDED for fat horses. Just like the TB breeders are being rewarded for big, fat babies. What looks like a 'normal' horse has changed over the years, as they gradually get fatter and bigger from all the 'improved' forages and 'better' feeds. Really, buyers will continue to gamble because the big yearling's have a better chance of glory in the big name races, even though their careers have been proven to be shorter. The horse industry LIKES big and fat, regardless of the consequences. As long as the goals are short term, nothing will change. Win a race. Win a ribbon. Horse founders or breaks down. Get another. There's lots around. Why change?

We must remove the reward to fix the system. In the halter world, the judges must stop pinning obese horses. I'm not sure how that could be done in the TB world.
Perhaps not racing so young, so that they are not pushed so early? Or put up a fund for prize money for special races for older horses, and wear your big hats and have a big party and TV coverage and MAKE A FUSS over and reward owners whose horses stay sound over the years.
Katy

[Equilibrium]

Katy,
I've been on your website and have found the information more than helpful. That's why I'm always a forage first add feed as needed. And I also have had my forage analyzed so I know what's lacking ect. I also have 2 "fat horse" paddocks. They can pick grass all day long, but not a lot of grass. Our grass over here tends to be quite startchy and you really have to keep an eye on them. People look to more nutrition in a bag than proper all around nutrition which includes your forage. Very hard to get any alfalfa hay here, we mostly have grass/meadow hay only. People have a tendency to not feed hay here and use Haylage instead. I'm not a big fan of haylage and actually to get the same value out of haylage as you would your hay, you have to feed more. The smell of it though is sooooo nice!

Terri

[Cherry]

I believe that either Krook and/or Maylin intimated that large amounts of calcium were to blame for the lack of bone strength in Thoroughbred, coupled with drugs....

While Katy can't do it I would like to mention that if you find Katy's website helpful you might want to consider helping her by donating some money to her research.... Thanks Katy for all you do!!!! :)

[Bitsymongomery]

In the discussion of the use of steriods in sales prep you asked where people were getting their information. I got my information on "Body Builder" a "natural" steroid , sold by Equiaide, derived from rice bran , from the TAYLORMADE website . They map out the suggested application of this feed additive very openly in their advice about preparing yearlings, both fillies and colts, for the sales ring. I read this on their site several years ago, and I do not know if they still advertise this information.

[Dinah-do]

BodyBuilder is not a steroid in any true sense of the word. It is bought and sold OTC and is not regulated as are steroids. I believe it is said to add water to muscles to increase bulk or some such thing. Also important to differentiate between anabolic steroids (Winstrol and Equipoise for example ) and cortico steroids (dex, cortisone and some other very heavy hitters used for anti imflammatory use.

[VentDependent]

Eight Belles "grew so damn big" because she is by a notoriously large-siring sire out of a big lined mare, not because she was given steroids.

That said, I am interested to see if there are any correlations with the OPs idea of over-nutrition and racehorse breakdown.

As a DVM, I would submit that horses with DOD and/or OCD probably wouldn't make it to the track at the level we are discussing-they're lame, surgerized, or inhibited by their disease so that they never make it past 2yo training.

[Katy Watts]

As a DVM, I would submit that horses with DOD and/or OCD probably wouldn't make it to the track at the level we are discussing-they're lame, surgerized, or inhibited by their disease so that they never make it past 2yo training.

But doesn't DOD manifest in degrees? Might their bones be just dense enough to get by until a real challenge?

[Dinah-do]

Fancy bred TBs are far more likely to have some kind of surgery than any other TB. Little chips , flaps, and zings in cartilage are almost always removed long before sales. Well done surgery does not show. Someone in Kentucky would know more than I but are not pre-sale radiographs required as a term of sale? Also checks cut for club feet. Not much DOD present when these very fancy babies are sold. From a vet that is an odd statement.

[LaurieB]

Fancy bred TBs are far more likely to have some kind of surgery than any other TB. Little chips , flaps, and zings in cartilage are almost always removed long before sales. Well done surgery does not show. Someone in Kentucky would know more than I but are not pre-sale radiographs required as a term of sale? Also checks cut for club feet. Not much DOD present when these very fancy babies are sold. From a vet that is an odd statement.

Requirements vary according to sales company. At Keeneland, x-rays aren't required. They are however expected, and most sales yearlings have them. If a horse has had invasive joint surgery pre-sale, that must be noted in a statement in the repository. If there's no statement, the surgery will be announced from the podium when the horse goes through the sales ring. If neither of those things happen (ie, the owner is lying through his teeth) and the surgery is discovered later, it's grounds for return of the horse.

[rcloisonne]

Also important to differentiate between anabolic steroids (Winstrol and Equipoise for example ) and cortico steroids (dex, cortisone and some other very heavy hitters used for anti imflammatory use.
Here! Here! It does appear some of the posters don't seem to know the difference. Anabolic steroids don't lead to IR. They build muscle, not fat and can contribute to a nasty temperament.

Too much of the other type, such as dexamethasone, will make a horse look like it has an advanced case of Cushing's Disease (poor coat, muscle wasting (especially over the topline), IR and even drug induced diabetes). Not something that would promote a high dollar sale.

[VentDependent]

But doesn't DOD manifest in degrees? Might their bones be just dense enough to get by until a real challenge?The real challenge isn't in the race, it is in the training leading up to it. That's why there are so many OTTBs that never raced-they were injured in training (in addition to the too slow ones) and never even made it to the track.

The fancy bred tbs that have surgery aren't as good as the same horses that don't have surgery-you can just tell. They are sore, they don't heal 100%, they have scar tissue, etc.

Surgery isn't a majick bullet that cures all it touches-you can return to racing but by and large it is never at the same level.

[Dinah-do]

Depends on what the surgery is and the horse. I guess we are lucky in this area to have talented surgeons that send horses back " better than ever".

[VentDependent]

Depends on what the surgery is and the horse. I guess we are lucky in this area to have talented surgeons that send horses back " better than ever".
Yeah. We have talented surgeons too but the horse isn't ever better than ever. You always have to be more careful with them, there is always scar tissue etc.

You can always tell, steel leaves a scar (even arthroscopy) You just gotta know where to look.

I'm not saying it's bad to have surgery, but they generally do poorer than their classmates that didn't have surgery.

[LaurieB]

The fancy bred tbs that have surgery aren't as good as the same horses that don't have surgery-you can just tell. They are sore, they don't heal 100%, they have scar tissue, etc.

Surgery isn't a majick bullet that cures all it touches-you can return to racing but by and large it is never at the same level.


LOL, I guess that's why Curlin never amounted to much.

[Flash44]

A few points....

Consignors who sell unsound horses that don't make it to the races, don't stay in business very long. Most of them strive to develp long term relationships with trainers and owners so that they can do repeat business. The only way to do that is to provide their customers with racing prospects that actually go on to do well. It's a shame, though, that buyers open up their wallets so wide for 2 yo's that go out and work in tens at the sales.

Fat horses look good. They look healthy, like a fat human baby. I think we are genetically hard-wired to conclude fat = healthy in something we are caring for. The SPCA goes after people who have animals that are too skinny, not people who have animals that are too fat. Look at the human population, how fat are we? Obviously we don't care about the negative implications of a too healthy diet or we would not be so fat. We have "health nuts," not "fat nuts," how crazy is that?????

It will take 20-30 years to overhaul the way we breed, raise, train and sell horses. It has been that long that the medication rules have been allowed to relax. Too many people believe in "better living through chemistry," and this is to the long term detriment of our horses, in all equine sports. Remove the medication allowances and people will be forced to use nutrition, training practices and sound animal husbandry practices to keep their horses sound and healthy.