Can we discuss bloodlines that pass soundness?

[seeuatx]

In the last few days there has been a good bit of discussion on certain fashionable bloodlines that look good on paper but are known to pass on unsoundness. As an OTTB enthusiast I am always interested in these things, so what bloodlines are known to pass on durability and soundness?

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Bumping this up because it's the other half of the equation that can help correct the direction breeding has been going.

Other than the Fair Play line, I'm not sure but I'd like to find out more.

I'd also like to know, since a lot of emphasis has been placed on the mare lines recently, Blue Hens, Reine-de-course, (sp?) and so on, what tail female lines produce questionable legs?

[ravenclaw]

I'm not a bloodlines expert at all. The only ones I can think of that were known for being sound are old bloodlines...Caro and Big Spruce and Nodouble. Maybe Buckpasser and Broad Brush?

I hope some more knowledgeable people will chime in, because I'm interested in learning more about this. I know of several current lines that AREN'T known for soundness, but none that are.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Is that the same Caro who is the damsire of Unbridled's Song (http://www.pedigreequery.com/unbridleds+song)? You know the sire of Eight Belles and the one that is being lambasted for throwing unsoundness? You know the Unbridled's Song that also traces back to that great French stalwarth, Wild Risk through Le Fabeleaux, who's names are trotted out in every discussion of TB lines for sporthorses as paragons of toughness and who also traces to those other known cornerstones of soundess and ironhorse-ed-ness, Olympia and Pricequillo.... and lo and behold, Buckpasser.

Or maybe Eight Belles took a bad step?
Nah.. couldn't be that simple. It's all Mr P's fault.

[seeuatx]

Is that the same Caro who is the damsire of Unbridled's Song (http://www.pedigreequery.com/unbridleds+song)? You know the sire of Eight Belles and the one that is being lambasted for throwing unsoundness? You know the Unbridled's Song that also traces back to that great French stalwarth, Wild Risk through Le Fabeleaux, who's names are trotted out in every discussion of TB lines for sporthorses as paragons of toughness and who also traces to those other known cornerstones of soundess and ironhorse-ed-ness, Olympia and Pricequillo.... and lo and behold, Buckpasser.

Or maybe Eight Belles took a bad step?
Nah.. couldn't be that simple. It's all Mr P's fault.

Interesting about Mr. P.... my gelding has Mr.P and Tri Jet as grandsires (relatively unknowns for parents) and he has never had an unsoundness that was not caused by an outside influence. He is 16 now, and has 20 starts under his belt, 5 years in the jumper ring, 3 years as an event horse and now he is straight dressage.

Another supersound one in my life is a gelding named Mister Matthew (Silver Buck x September Dancer by Danzig Connection), 6 years on the track, now 12 and jumping. I don't think that horse knows the meaning of the word "ouch".

[Kim]

Was Nashua known for soundness? I have a 31-year-old (yes, 31!) Nashua grand-daughter who did eventing, "A" hunters, etc. for years and is sounder than many others half her age.

[Texarkana]

For what it's worth, some of the hardiest horses I have known had Verbatim (http://www.pedigreequery.com/verbatim) close up.

Although he's usually off the catalog pages anymore, so I would consider it pretty irrelevant.

[sisu27]

I know nothing about this stuff but I have a grandson of Seattle Slew and I have spoken with other Slewbaby owners and they seem pretty sturdy. Mine raced for 5 years and is sound and clean legged. He has substantial bone but he also has a huge set of shoulders so I would think his legs have taken a pounding. He also has pretty good feet for a thbd and only wears front shoes. He also has RAN which I have read on here is not good. Any thoughts?

Here is his pedigree:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+hobo+joe

My thinking is that the bigger boned horses must have some advantage??

[dressagetraks]

Disclaimer: I am purely a fan of racing. My breeding endeavors lie in other disciplines. I freely admit that I do not know as much about racing as some on this forum.

My personal opinion from general breeding is that if I wanted to breed an exceptionally sound horse, I would look hardest not several generations way back in the pedigree at influences probably quite diluted at this stage but at the immediate ancestors, especially the sire and dam. If they had problems with soundness and durability, I would not use them for breeding, because I think they themselves will be the most immediate influence on my foal's conformation, athleticism, and durability. I'd take a quick look at the grandparents, too, but the sire and dam, to me, would be nonnegotiable in terms of soundness and use for breeding. I might miss a lot of money that way, were I in horse racing as a breeder instead of as a fan, but I just don't see why "but he earned a lot of money" should trump principles that are applied by many (not all) in other sport horse fields of breeding. I would never send my mares to a stallion with bad feet or legs, not saying that those could never sire a sound horse, just that I think there is a greater likelihood of problems.

Unbridled's Song, whatever his own distant ancestry, is an individual who had repeated soundness problems in his own career on the track. I think he's one of the most gorgeous studs I've ever seen, but I would not breed to him. Not even free. If I had acquired a mare by him somehow and considered breeding her for whatever reason, I would first assess her own ruggedness very carefully, probably deciding against breeding her if that had flaws, and second would run for the soundest and most proven durable stud I could find, not for another brilliant but with soundness problems stud. Especially given the demands of racing, more strenuous than other equestrian endeavors.

Nor would I breed to Big Brown.

Seattle Slew, yes. Nashua. Princequillo. Right now, Hard Spun. Something that has shown personal durability, that faced testing and held up well to it.

[Madeline]

If you're willing to concede that Barbaro took a misstep, you might consider Dynaformer. Lots of durable g1 winners, 30 starts of his own. No Native Dancer.

I see a lot of nice horses with Hail to Reason up pretty close.

madeline

[VirginiaBred]

If you're willing to concede that Barbaro took a misstep, you might consider Dynaformer. Lots of durable g1 winners, 30 starts of his own. No Native Dancer.

I see a lot of nice horses with Hail to Reason up pretty close.

madeline

I too was going to suggest Dynaformer (after researching this very subject).

[vineyridge]

I think it all depends on the cross and how potent the sire and/or dams are. One or the other will prevail in the foal.

All of the successful Roberto sons are fairly pre-potent and throw sound offspring.

As to the example of crosses that went bad, take a look at Shenanigans. When bred to the Bold Ruler line, her get were fragile. But when bred to anyone else, they were comparatively tough with large numbers of starts.

There are such things as anti-nicks. Bold Ruler to Buckpasser as been identified as one.

[hey101]

I too was going to suggest Dynaformer (after researching this very subject).

I like Dynaformer too- even before Barbaro made him a household name! He has a son "McDynamo" who has done exceedingly well in the tough sport of steeplechasing.

For the sport horse market, Dynaformer is out of the question with that stud fee. But what about one of his sons such as this stallion standing in PA? (I have my eye on this guy for when I eventually breed my own ISH mare...). I'd appreciate the input of some of the more knowledgeable folks on here. :)

http://www.symranch.com/horses/st05.html

[horsetales]

I don't know TB lines, but my mare seems to be of good stock with clean legs no shoes. http://www.pedigreequery.com/saturday+nite+lady
I'm hoping some of the TB people chime in, I would love to find more about her pedigree

[Brandy76]

My new guy is by Private Terms, ran 61 times, came out clean legged, now in training to event.

My 22 year old (17 hands solid) was Tim Tam and Alydar, raced 9 times ( 6 times at 2), evented the rest of his life, now he hacks out, and other than some arthritis, still in pretty darn good shape

[sporthorsefilly]

If you look at the pedigree of Eight Belles, there are 4 lines to Native Dancer. Three are from Raise a Native (retired at 3 unsoundness); 2 lines to Mr. P (speed kills! many Mr. Ps become unsound).

Unbridled Song, had soundness problems as previously stated

From my own point of view, I believe that too many Nearco line horses in a pedigree is what is causing all these problems. TBs need to bring back those Machem lines...quote from TB heritage:

"In all, Matchem sired 354 winners, and his hallmark was excellent temperament and durability, the "truth and daylight" so desirable in breeding. "

It is just my opinion that heavy line breeding to horses known for unsoundness is not helping the horse or the sport.

I can recall in the late 50's, Round Table running nearly ever week...where are those sound horses now?

[DLee]

This is my 22yo chestnut mare's pedigree http://www.pedigreequery.com/dreamology . She is virtually indestructible, legwise and healthwise. I'm not sure how many times she ran. Survived Bastard Strangles and has never taken a lame step. I should have bred her. :( A lovely, lovely mover as well. Sigh.

I had a Slew grandbaby, loved him dearly but unsoundest horse I've ever owned.

[RomeosGirl]

Interesting about Mr. P.... my gelding has Mr.P and Tri Jet as grandsires (relatively unknowns for parents) and he has never had an unsoundness that was not caused by an outside influence. He is 16 now, and has 20 starts under his belt, 5 years in the jumper ring, 3 years as an event horse and now he is straight dressage.

Another supersound one in my life is a gelding named Mister Matthew (Silver Buck x September Dancer by Danzig Connection), 6 years on the track, now 12 and jumping. I don't think that horse knows the meaning of the word "ouch".
I have a Mr. P grandson who has Danzig Connection on his Dam's side - maybe the two will even each other out???
http://www.pedigreequery.com/nicholas+nicholas
He's 10, so time will tell - but he was off for some time last fall when he blew an abscess(sp?) out the side of his hoof

[Drvmb1ggl3]

The idealism is all fine and lovely, but the winner of the Kentucky Derby, Breeders Cup etc is the first horse past the post, not the soundest.
A stallion that throws chronic unsoundness will not have much of a future at stud. A stallion that throws some unsoundness, but enough winners of checks will. A stallion that throws horses that never take a lame step, but can't outrun their shadow, will have his genes die out soon enough, at least in the racing end of things.

Btw, for all this criticism of Raise a Native, the leading jump race sire (has progeny earnings up around the $25-30m mark in just jump races alone) was Be My Native. As you can tell from his name what sireline he comes from. He sired loads of horses that raced until 12 or 13 of age.

I posted this before, but it bears repeating.... Whirlaway is often cited as one of the great Ironhorses of yesteryear in American racing. He made 60 starts, won 32 times, finished in the money and amazing 56 times. He won the Triple Crown, won the Travers (which is in effect the Quadruple Crown, the only horse ever to do so) and just about every other great race of the day.

His grandsire was the phenom, Blandford, an increbible sire. Balndford had horrible conformation and was almost not raced. He bowed in both legs in his 2nd race. He was sent to stud, because he was well bred and sired, lo and behold, 4 Derby winners. Probably the most famous was Blenheim. A couple of weeks after his Derby win at Epsom, Blenheim broke down in training. So he didn't even make it half way through his 3yo year. He was then packed off to stud. So that's 2 generations of "unsound" sires.

At stud in France Blenheim sired a Derby winner himself, Mahmoud and the great stayer, Donatello, plus he gave the world the blue hen mare, Mumtaz Begum (dam of Nasrullah).
He was then purchased by Bull Hancock and brought to Kentucky, where he sired none other than.... the great Whirlaway. He also sired the likes of Rosebeam and Saratoga and several others who made over 100 starts each, including the great Steeplechaser, Adaptable, who ran over 100 times also. Add to that Jet Pilot, a tough campaigner who won the Kentucky Derby.
This all from a sire and grandsire who couldn't stay sound after a couple of runs on nice soft English grass.

So be careful about deciding who is fit to stand at stud and who isn't.

[lizathenag]

TBs need to bring back those Machem lines...quote from TB heritage:
?


I am very happy with my Betrando (Matchem) son as a saddle horse.

[Cherry]

and say that I think a lot of the unsoundness we are seeing in the modern day TB is a result of their training....

These horses aren't working out on the track nearly enough, IMO--a lot of trainers enter their horses in some of these races not to race them but as "exercise".... And a lot of these modern trainers try to use the same mold for all the horses they are training--if the horse doesn't stand up to the training they're just replaced with others that "might" stand up, ad infinitium until the owners get wise and stop supporting those trainers.... :yes: ;)

These horses nowadays hardly run past three or four! The money to get the stallions to stud is so tremendous the owners aren't willing to keep the horses on the track, so we have stallions that are three, are injured and they are the horses we're breeding to???? :eek: I don't see how anyone can judge the soundness of breeding stock in the past ten or twenty years--it's just a shot in the dark (as it always is--genes aren't as predictable as some would like to believe!).... I don't think you can predict the soundness of a foal.... What's that old saying, "Breed the best to the best, and hope!".... :uhoh: Who's to say who's best when the horse's soundness is in question and they aren't run past the age of three or four??? :confused:

[EMWalker]

The idealism is all fine and lovely, but the winner of the Kentucky Derby, Breeders Cup etc is the first horse past the post, not the soundest.
A stallion that throws chronic unsoundness will not have much of a future at stud. A stallion that throws some unsoundness, but enough winners of checks will. A stallion that throws horses that never take a lame step, but can't outrun their shadow, will have his genes die out soon enough, at least in the racing end of things.

I think this is the problem with a lot of TB breeders. People on this board are trying to come up with some sort of explanation as to why so many horses are breaking down these days but because of $$$ a lot of people refuse to believe (or admit) its genetics. Somewhere along the way, it HAS to be genetics.

The race horse community will have to decide what is more important - slower, sounder horses or to keep breeding fast but fragile animals.

Drvm - one possible explanation of stallons with bad legs throwing some good babies could be because of the mares. If you have mare that really stamps her foals with good legs, then you could breed her to anything and get a sound baby. I am a firm believer that yes, some stallions stamp their babies but it's more about a GOOD mare.

I think the racehorse community CAN change genetics by selecting the RIGHT mares for each stallion instead of who will just foot the bill. If the owners of Big Brown insist on passing on his genes, they should be ultra selective of the mares. They may loose some money but it would be for the betterment of the sport.

Coming from the H/J land where there a very few horses actually "breaking" bones in competition, I think it is a prime example how a large gene pool is bettering the sport and the horses.

Just my two cents.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I admit that I don't know much about it. But Reputed Testamony always impressed me as a sound horse.

http://www.tamarackhill.com/Stallions/reputed.htm

[fish]

Was browsing through an old Register last night and found an interesting example of a horse who seems to have stayed pretty sound: Awad (Caveat x Dancer's Candy by Noble Dancer) made 70 starts, 2-8yrs., earning $3,270,131. My guess is that he wouldn't be very fashionable here, though, having done most of his running on Turf-- which may have had something to do with why he kept running?

Attractive horse in the photo--lovely legs :)

[Red Hunter]

Seattle Slew is known as a durable bloodline. I own a OTTB with the Native Dancer and Double Jay bloodline. He raced as a 2 yr old & 3 yr. old (26 starts). I purchased him when he turned five to foxhunt. He is the most durable/sound horse I have ever owned. He is now 20 yrs. old and has the cleanest legs you will ever see. I guess the durability came from his dam's bloodline.

I agree that the thoroughbred industry is more concerned with breeding a faster horse and not one that will last more than four years on the track. But I feel, as others do, that another contributing factor to the breakdowns is that these horses are being pushed too hard to fast.

I disagree with those individuals who say that a 2-year old's legs are not developed enough to begin racing competition and that waiting until they are older (i.e., when there is complete closure of the growth plate in the leg) would decrease the amount of track fatalities.

There has been research conducted to disprove this theory. Studies have shown that it is important to start progressive stress remodeling for strong tendon and bone development at an earlier age. What is being done incorrectly in training regimes is rapidly increasing stress levels over a short period of time - such as those designed to bring a young horse to racing speed in just a few weeks for 2-year old in-training sales, which increases the risk of an injury.

I have included a link to a file containing an article which discusses Dr. David Nunamaker's research on this subject. Dr. Nunamaker is an orthopedic surgeon and head of the Univ. of Pennsylvania's New Bolton Center.

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/resources/dec_03.pdf

[vineyridge]

I absolutely agree about bringing back the Matchem line, but would also suggest that the Herod line needs a comeback as well.

The soundness issues don't come from sires alone; it's just that far more of them raced to breakdown than mares. You HAVE to look at both sides and both sexes of the pedigree.

Rags to Riches won the Belmont and never raced again. The excuse was unsoundness. How much do you think HER babies will be worth initially? The odds are that she will be a dud as a broodmare, like Winning Colors, but the first couple of foals will bring huge amounts at the sales.

[sportinghorsepolo]

My mare has been sound in as many years as I've had her (granted, now she's a polo pony). A little funny moving in the hind, but sound after racing AND chukkars. She also jumps for fun:) Oh yea, she's 15 hh!!

Any polo people on here? I'm new (first post!)

Heres my girl:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/majestic+molly

Heres another one:
She has been one sound little thing since day 1!

http://www.pedigreequery.com/your+wildest+dream

[rcloisonne]

Rags to Riches won the Belmont and never raced again.
Not true. She raced again at Belmont in September 07. Came in second, I believe.

[SEPowell]

The idealism is all fine and lovely, but the winner of the Kentucky Derby, Breeders Cup etc is the first horse past the post, not the soundest.
A stallion that throws chronic unsoundness will not have much of a future at stud. A stallion that throws some unsoundness, but enough winners of checks will. A stallion that throws horses that never take a lame step, but can't outrun their shadow, will have his genes die out soon enough, at least in the racing end of things.

Btw, for all this criticism of Raise a Native, the leading jump race sire (has progeny earnings up around the $25-30m mark in just jump races alone) was Be My Native. As you can tell from his name what sireline he comes from. He sired loads of horses that raced until 12 or 13 of age.

I posted this before, but it bears repeating.... Whirlaway is often cited as one of the great Ironhorses of yesteryear in American racing. He made 60 starts, won 32 times, finished in the money and amazing 56 times. He won the Triple Crown, won the Travers (which is in effect the Quadruple Crown, the only horse ever to do so) and just about every other great race of the day.

His grandsire was the phenom, Blandford, an increbible sire. Balndford had horrible conformation and was almost not raced. He bowed in both legs in his 2nd race. He was sent to stud, because he was well bred and sired, lo and behold, 4 Derby winners. Probably the most famous was Blenheim. A couple of weeks after his Derby win at Epsom, Blenheim broke down in training. So he didn't even make it half way through his 3yo year. He was then packed off to stud. So that's 2 generations of "unsound" sires.

At stud in France Blenheim sired a Derby winner himself, Mahmoud and the great stayer, Donatello, plus he gave the world the blue hen mare, Mumtaz Begum (dam of Nasrullah).
He was then purchased by Bull Hancock and brought to Kentucky, where he sired none other than.... the great Whirlaway. He also sired the likes of Rosebeam and Saratoga and several others who made over 100 starts each, including the great Steeplechaser, Adaptable, who ran over 100 times also. Add to that Jet Pilot, a tough campaigner who won the Kentucky Derby.
This all from a sire and grandsire who couldn't stay sound after a couple of runs on nice soft English grass.

So be careful about deciding who is fit to stand at stud and who isn't.

It's hard to know where to put your money when you're rolling genetic dice :lol:

[cloudyandcallie]

yes, my old TB mare had good hooves, she was by Poker (Round Table) out of Mother Hilda (went back to War Admiral), both sides full of Nearo and Nasrullah. good hooves, 3 yrs on the track. and good bone. she had great clean legs and solid bone for 24 yrs.

[vineyridge]

Not true. She raced again at Belmont in September 07. Came in second, I believe.

With a hairline fracture of her right front pastern, which ultimately led to her "retirement".

[On the Farm]

With a hairline fracture of her right front pastern, which ultimately led to her "retirement".

Ultimately maybe, but there was much more that went into the decision as detailed in the NY Daily News.

Rags to Riches to retirement
BY JERRY BOSSERT
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Tuesday, March 25th 2008, 4:00 AM

Rags to Riches, the super filly who outdueled eventual 2007 Horse of the Year Curlin to win last year's Belmont Stakes, has been retired.

"She has reinjured her right front pastern and because of the timing, the decision was made to retire her as opposed to trying to bring her back in the fall," trainer Todd Pletcher said. "It's a sad day for racing and all of her fans. She will go down in the history books as one of the best fillies ever to run."




So what would YOU have done if RtoR was your filly? Would you have laid her up for the fall campaign or look at how breeding her now would fit into the goals of the ownership's entire organization? What else may she have had to prove on the track to warrant her being a breeding prospect?

[JER]

For what it's worth, some of the hardiest horses I have known had Verbatim (http://www.pedigreequery.com/verbatim) close up.

Although he's usually off the catalog pages anymore, so I would consider it pretty irrelevant.

I would agree with this. There were some Verbatim daughters in CA who routinely produced offspring that would run 70-80 races in their careers. Not the fastest horses or the prettiest but stayed sound forever.

[Acertainsmile]

Seattle Slew is known as a durable bloodline. I own a OTTB with the Native Dancer and Double Jay bloodline. He raced as a 2 yr old & 3 yr. old (26 starts). I purchased him when he turned five to foxhunt. He is the most durable/sound horse I have ever owned. He is now 20 yrs. old and has the cleanest legs you will ever see. I guess the durability came from his dam's bloodline.

I agree that the thoroughbred industry is more concerned with breeding a faster horse and not one that will last more than four years on the track. But I feel, as others do, that another contributing factor to the breakdowns is that these horses are being pushed too hard to fast.

I disagree with those individuals who say that a 2-year old's legs are not developed enough to begin racing competition and that waiting until they are older (i.e., when there is complete closure of the growth plate in the leg) would decrease the amount of track fatalities.

There has been research conducted to disprove this theory. Studies have shown that it is important to start progressive stress remodeling for strong tendon and bone development at an earlier age. What is being done incorrectly in training regimes is rapidly increasing stress levels over a short period of time - such as those designed to bring a young horse to racing speed in just a few weeks for 2-year old in-training sales, which increases the risk of an injury.
I have included a link to a file containing an article which discusses Dr. David Nunamaker's research on this subject. Dr. Nunamaker is an orthopedic surgeon and head of the Univ. of Pennsylvania's New Bolton Center.

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/resources/dec_03.pdf

I dont even want to count how many times this past week I have stated that...