Can We Have An INTELLIGENT Thread On Eight Belles??

[horselips]

Because I know there are some very smart race people on this board, and if I have to read one more omg!!!-im-so-sad-an-mi-dog-is-so-sad-2-n-mi-kid-is-cryin-hre-eyez-out!! post, I think I will just snap.

So please.. Glimmerglass? Linny? *Other race-track people? Any thoughts? Info?

I was wondering how common it is to put 200 lbs on horses in the morning. I know it is common to use heavier (than a jockey's weight) exercise riders, but this amount does seem excessive. Could it have contributed?

What do you all think/feel about this bizarre injury?





*slick this does NOT mean you. You are NOT a race-tracker, so please stay out of this thread. You are on my ignore, and know NOTHING about racehorses, so please slither back to the dressage forum. Thanks.

[DickHertz]

The injury was a fluke

It's not completely uncommon to see 180-200 lb people galloping horses in the morning, but I never see them breezing horses. Only galloping. Before someone from Saratoga says "I've been working on the NY circuit for 93 years and I've never seen that" - my mornings have been spent at Penn, Charles Town, and Mountaineer.

[gubbyz]

Horselips, I second everything you said! Intelligent information about what happened please. Oh, how long till necropsy reports come out? Any thoughts on that?

[Lauruffian]

I just posted this in another, non-horsey forum. It has some good info from an article in today's DRF online edition:
-------------------------------
This is just more info (with interesting statistics on overall rates of thoroughbred racehorse breakdowns) from the racing community. We are all still reacting with a chorus of "WTF?!"

From an article on the Daily Racing Form Online:



"You'll see things like condylar fractures or sesamoid fractures in one leg, and as they start slowing down and their mind gets off of the competition, they'll become aware of the discomfort," [Kentucky Derby attending track vet] Bramlage added when asked what injuries are most likely after the finish line. "An injury as they're pulling up is not terribly unheard of. The vast majority of injuries, however, don't manifest until they're cooling out, unless the horse becomes structurally unstable in some fashion. Then they start slowing down in the race. None of those scenarios fit here."


Another equine surgeon named Dwayne Rodgerson reports,


Rodgerson said he knows of no statistics showing how many injuries occur after the finish line. But studies have shown the catastrophic injury rate in Thoroughbred races typically hovers between 1.6 and 2.03 per 1,000 races.

(emphasis mine)

And this is the quote that really just sums it up our WTF?!:


Eight Belles's injury, and particularly the failure of both front fetlocks, provides a highly unusual and baffling case study for the country's top equine orthopedic surgeons.

"I've never seen it in a horse that galloped out that far after the race," Bramlage said. "I actually have only ever seen it firsthand on videotape and never in a race where I actually have been. Even in that situation and in situations where a horse injures one leg, they're not performing like she was performing. She was closing the gap at the end of the race, so it's not as if she were protecting something or aware, even, that anything was going on. Her level of performance couldn't have been higher. So there was no outward sign that any of this was impending.

I've only seen one double-legged injury in 25 years of racewatching (and that includes the nightly race recaps of the day's races of multiple tracks), and that was a two-year-old who broke both knees rounding the final turn about 20 years ago in a cheap maiden claimer.

I'm not posting this as an argument (there's a thread in another forum for that), but just sharing information and insight into the collective :eek: :confused: :cry: reaction the racing community is having.
----------------------
As far as heavier riders in the morning--my friend Bruce Headley regularly rides his trainees, and he's no 110lb jock. Yet, he has lost one--one--horse in 50+ years due to a catastrophic breakdown. And, he is well-reputed for having horses with unusually lonig careers, winning stakes at 9, 10, and even 11 years old...so, at least in the case of Bruce, it would seem the weight of the exercise rider has no effect on rates of breakdown.

[Barnfairy]

Given the cirumstances, I'm going to break from proper protocol (beg forgiveness) and quote the entire DRF article Lauruffian referenced here, because it's truly worth reading, and in order to access it online beyond today you'll need to be a DRF member:

Eight Belles' injury rare and baffling (http://www.drf.com/news/article/94302.html) Glenye Cain Oakford reporting for the Daily Racing Form:

LEXINGTON, Ky. - Breakdowns of the kind Eight Belles sustained moments after the Kentucky Derby are unusual in horses that are pulling up from a race, equine orthopedic surgeons said Monday. But the strides after the finish line can still present a danger for tired horses.

There are two primary contributing factors for post-race breakdowns, said Dr. Larry Bramlage, an orthopedic surgeon with Rood and Riddle Equine Hospital who was present at the Derby as a veterinary spokesman from the American Association of Equine Practitioners.

"One, they're tired, so their muscles absorb less of the stress, so they start taking a heavier load on the skeleton," said Bramlage. "The second thing is, they take their mind off what they're doing. That's why you want a jockey to let the horse gallop out over a longer distance and don't let them start propping to slow themselves down. The propping situation certainly wouldn't apply here, because the horse had galloped out already a quarter of a mile easing down in speed. As to whether she was tired or not, she'd just run a mile and a quarter - they're all tired.

"You'll see things like condylar fractures or sesamoid fractures in one leg, and as they start slowing down and their mind gets off of the competition, they'll become aware of the discomfort," Bramlage added when asked what injuries are most likely after the finish line. "An injury as they're pulling up is not terribly unheard of. The vast majority of injuries, however, don't manifest until they're cooling out, unless the horse becomes structurally unstable in some fashion. Then they start slowing down in the race. None of those scenarios fit here."

Bramlage said close examination of video shows Eight Belles's breakdown began when her right front leg failed.

"Two steps later, her left front gives way as well, and that's when she went down," he said. "She gets very asymmetric [uneven in stride] for about two steps, and then her left front fails."

That progression has led some to believe the filly's shifting weight from the right front to the left front likely contributed to the left leg's failure. She had condylar fractures, vertical breaks from the fetlock area up into the cannon bone, in both forelegs.

Dwayne H. Rodgerson, a surgeon at Hagyard Equine Medical Institute, called Eight Belles's injury - near-simultaneous catastrophic condylar fractures in both forelegs - "very rare."

Rodgerson said he knows of no statistics showing how many injuries occur after the finish line. But studies have shown the catastrophic injury rate in Thoroughbred races typically hovers between 1.6 and 2.03 per 1,000 races.

Smaller condylar fractures occur fairly commonly in racehorses and frequently can be repaired. Rodgerson said that horses with more common incomplete condylar fractures often are weight bearing and can appear sound. But the rarer severe cases, particularly ones in which bone breaks completely and through the skin and allows contamination into the leg, as happened on Eight Belles's left foreleg, can call for euthanasia.

"Once the bone pops out, it goes up the leg, and once that goes the collateral ligament support is gone," Rodgerson said. "The collateral ligament is what keeps the leg from shifting to the inside or outside, and when they lose that collateral ligament, the joint's not stable, and it can, in a sense, dislocate."

In Eight Belles's instance, the involvement of both front legs left no real option for treatment, Bramlage and Rodgerson agreed, because there was essentially no way for the horse to stand, a key to survival. And the open wound on the left front would have made the risk of infection high, even if surgeons had attempted repair.

Eight Belles's injury, and particularly the failure of both front fetlocks, provides a highly unusual and baffling case study for the country's top equine orthopedic surgeons.

"I've never seen it in a horse that galloped out that far after the race," Bramlage said. "I actually have only ever seen it firsthand on videotape and never in a race where I actually have been. Even in that situation and in situations where a horse injures one leg, they're not performing like she was performing. She was closing the gap at the end of the race, so it's not as if she were protecting something or aware, even, that anything was going on. Her level of performance couldn't have been higher. So there was no outward sign that any of this was impending."

Jockey did everything right, Jones says

Larry Jones, the trainer of Eight Belles, spoke out Monday in defense of jockey Gabriel Saez, who rode Eight Belles in the Kentucky Derby.

"This filly in every race has tried to drift toward the rail," Jones told The Associated Press in Lexington, Ky. "It's her comfort zone, and Gabriel knows this. This kid made every move the right move, and I hate it that they're wanting to jump down his throat. He did not try to abuse that horse to make her run faster. He knew he was second best, that she wasn't going to catch Big Brown."

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, an animal rights group, has called for Saez to be suspended, suggesting that he should have known that the filly was injured.

Saez, 20, began to ride competitively in 2006 and was the youngest jockey in the Derby this year. He issued the following statement Monday from his home base at Delaware Park:

"I remain heartbroken over Eight Belles, and I want to let her many fans know that she never gave me the slightest indication before or during the race that there was anything bothering her. All I could sense under me was how eager she was to race. I was so proud of her performance, and of the opportunity to ride her in my first Kentucky Derby, all of which adds to my sadness. Riding right now at Delaware Park and being around the horses and other jockeys is good therapy for me, but I hope the media understands that I prefer not to conduct interviews at this time. Please respect my decision while I mourn my personal loss."

[Sabine]

Thank you for posting this thread. It helps to understand reading from the experts and understanding better from the experience of those that are in this business.

[Barnfairy]

Oh, forgot the other thing I wanted say earlier:

Looking at Eight Belles' pedigree (http://www.pedigreequery.com/eight+belles), she's got an awful lot of Raise a Native, Native Dancer.

It has long been suggested that certain lines produce horses prone to fractures. Texas A&M is currently putting together a study of retired racehorses in an attempt to find proof of such genetic predisposition. Retired Racehorse to Participate in Texas A&M Study (http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11236&src=TS)


More than 100 horses currently being cared for by the Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation (TRF) will take part in a study at Texas A&M University that will attempt to identify genes in horses predisposed to fractures and catastrophic injuries.

"We're looking for some kind of genetic trait that may make the difference," said Jana Caldwell, a PhD student in the Department of Veterinary Integrative Biosciences at Texas A&M University's College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences. She is working with a team specializing in genetics, which is headed by Bhanu Chowdhary, PhD.

"It seems fitting that our horses at the Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation would find a way to give back," said Diana Pikulski, executive director of the TRF.

The Equine Genetics Laboratory will receive tissue samples from horses who suffer catastrophic injuries from a group of regulatory veterinarians throughout the country. Researchers will also look at TRF horses that did not sustain career-ending injuries in 30 or more starts. This is a blind study, meaning researcher won’t know which group they’re looking at.

"The TRF horses are all over the country and have been exposed to all kinds of track conditions,” said Caldwell. “We'll use approximately 170 of them in our study."

No organized studies have been carried out up till now to study the genetic aspect of racing career longevity. Hence, the team is undertaking this work with the long-term goal to identify genetic signatures that can help to predict which horses might be at higher risk of being injured on the track than others.



My now 12 yo OTTB Rasor D (here's the boy doin' his thing back in the day (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2859921930099108256AKSLaF)) qualified for the study.

Purely for the sake of comparison, Rasor raced from age 2 (his first race was in July of that year, and his actual birthdate is April 20, so yup -- he was first backed & ridden as a yearling) through the end of his ten year old year. He raced a whopping 130 times, and retired sound. He does have cold set osselets, but he is truly sound, not what some call "racing sound." 16.1 hands, and a svelte 1150 lbs the day he came home from the track (he's packed on a few more since then.) At his peak, he ran at the allowance level with his highest speed figure 91...but mostly he ran in the claiming ranks. He ran at distances ranging from 6f to 1 1/16th mile (with wins at both distances), predominantly on dirt at tracks up & down the east coast.

Here's his pedigree (http://www.pedigreequery.com/rasor+d) (note the Fappiano - Mr. P - RAN - ND on top, and that he's got 5SA x 5SD Native Dancer, amongst other "duplicates".) Rasor's final trainer told me that his regular exercise rider weighed 170 lbs.

Did he stay sound because of conditioning? Because of genetics? Because he was too slow, or more cautious? Just good luck? At the moment, noone can really say why for sure.

[skatepixie]

I think it's hard to say that there is just one cause, anymore than you can with something like people getting cancer (genetics, lifestyle, etc) because so many thing can play a part. I also don't think it's good to blame someone just because we want an easy answer, the way PETA is blaming the jockey.

[Laurierace]

I have two horses that are going to be part of the soundness study in Texas as well. Hopefully they will learn something meaningful.

[J Swan]

Laurierace - really? That's really interesting - as is the other info posted on this thread.

(disclaimer - I enjoy racing and chasing; but am not part of the industry. However, if this counts, I know how to set up hurdles. Probably doesn't count, though. :))

I can imagine that the results of this study could benefit all horses and horsemen - not just racing folks.

[jeano]

to OP, on the 4 year old daughter devastation thread you made the comment i've been witholding about channeling Barbaro--I've been wondering how many people were disappointed they were deprived of months of jingling, candle lighting, and prayer vigils when the filly was put down promptly. This thread has been quite intelligent, and for this I thank you.

I am wondering if there are meaningful comparisons of racing injuries in Britain and elsewhere against the US stats. On another thread a brit made the comment that on the other side of the pond racehorses are still horses, are out on grass, exercised on natural terrain, not nearly so many hours of confinement in stalls. Also not fattened like halter horses for the yearling sales. And I'm also intrigued by the genetic factors, is the fact that JC requires live cover and the distances involved mean the English and American TBs are evolving away from each other in terms of soundness, longevity on the track.

Seconding J Swan that this study can benefit many more horses than racing TBs

I do think they are raced too young and too fast in this country. (and that includes QH futurities of all kinds.) And is it my imagination, based SOLEY on my doubtless faulty memory, or are there more catastrophic injuries in the big stakes races than 40+ years ago when I was a horse-crazy young'un?

I am but a humble trail horse owner and rider and have No Business Posting on the Racing Forum, and only came over here at all in anticipation of a LOT of "what about the children?" threads, which i find full of unconcious humor. Little precious grows up thinking that meat comes from the grocery store, and that death only happens to Other People.

[lrkrame2]

to the OP, thank you for posting this.. I was getting so frustrated with the 'I'll never watch horseracing again' posts that i refused to get on the boards for the rest of the day yesterday..

in my experiences working with the farm i'm with in MI, they generally like to keep their exersize riders under 160.. There is a guy at the farm however who is at least 180-190 however his 25+ years experience doing this job makes him an extremely valuable part of this team..

The other information posted on this thread has also been extremely interesting, I want to hear more about the genetics studies ect.ect. hopefully in the future..

[horselips]

Thanks for all the info and articles, people.

I know it is common, and even desirable to put a heavier rider on a horse for it's workouts; it helps get them fit.

But while 160 - 180 may be reasonable, 200 does seem excessive. Especially for the speed works, and especially for such a large - and therefore even slower to mature physically - 3yo.

I can't help but think in this instance the extra weight might have contributed to a weakening of the bones. When she got tired, the bones gave out.

I have heard of the theory of the Native Dancer blood before.
There was/is an awful lot of that out there. In fact, you might be hard pressed not to find it somewhere in a good horse's pedigree.


Does anyone know if the filly had her ankles x-rayed, or ultra-sounded anytime this spring?
It is common to routinely x-ray knees and lower legs of the really high-class horses as part of preventative medicine, isn't it?

Maybe no stress fractures were present, but I'm wondering about bone density.

I'm sure they would not have run her if they could detect any weakness or compromised structure, yet there must be some way to tell if things are beginning to deteriorate.


There is such a fine line between stress and strain. A little stress is good: The structures won't strengthen without it. Too much turns into strain, and the structures will disintegrate.

[sing]

There are so many threads up here right now, so not sure if this has come up, but Equus has an article about heart rate variability as a very accurate predictor of injury- really interesting article.

[cloudyandcallie]

we could have an intelligent thread on racing, but.............every time any one suggests changes, or says that racing is doing something incorrectly, we are called "emotional" and "uninformed". Those of us who have follwed racing for over 50 yrs, go Native Dancer, go Needles, are told since we don't race or breed, we know nothing. It doesn't matter that I've owned 3 TB mares, 2 of them OTTB mares, it only matters that I think that anyone who would breed a horse with a leg like Barbaro's, so fragile that it shattered into how many pieces, without reason, except breeding and training, and wasn't he an April foal, well, when we/I say that..................I'm told gee, the horses love racing. I'm not against racing, but I think the horses need to mature, need to be conditioned for strength and endurance and not just speed, and the horses should be treated differently from beef cattle, and not run till they drop or get disabled and then sold to the knackers for 275 dollars. Culturally, we are a country that does not eat horses or dogs or cats, altho we eat cows which is verboten in India. As long as people say that the horses died doing what they love to do, we cannot get beyond the control issue to the welfare issue. No horses likes being whipped. My 3 yrs on the track mare never got over the issue of being last in the barn or last in the paddock, she knew that that could mean a trip to the slaughterhouse, smart girl, but she was bred and raised and trained so she survived 3 yrs on the track, thanks to Mrs. Gallagher of Kentucky, her breeder.

[Anne FS]

Actually, I think with the one exception of the My poor little baby girl! thread, there's been a lot of intelligent stuff. Methinks the OP just wanted to be a thread starter ;)

Anyway, try this article for a reasoned overview and what it was like for the reporters:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tim_layden/05/05/eightbelles.aftermath/index.html?eref=T1

[LaurieB]

The most intelligent thing I can say about Eight Belles is that sometimes bad things just happen. There doesn't always have to be someone or something to blame.

[Chester's Mom]

I am not a 'racetracker' but a racing fan...and have been since I was old enough to figure out how to change channels!! I spent the mid 70's in England where you could see literally hours of racing coverage (horse and dog) in addition to show jumping and other horsey events on TV every weekend.

What I have never seen is what I am seeing in my now-local newspaper. This paper, that gives us one or two days of coverage before the Derby, Preakness, Belmont and then the Breeder's Cup (for those counting, that equals less than a dozen articles a year including the results) has had an Eight Belles story EVERY DAY since Saturday. The gist is the same.... this is too common... something must change. Even the Barbaro story wasn't approached this way.

Now, few of these are locally written. They are AP or other services stories sent out through wire but this is unprecedented in my area. It seems to me to be pointing to a groundswell of attention from groups of folks who have never before cared to know.

I don't know what that forebodes but I think its something racing fans need to be aware of and ready for.

[findeight]

No track rat but have been on the backside in the AM at various tracks, some marquee and some fairgrounds types. Seen good sized men and women-usually trainers and assistants-out there galloping. Not breezing or blowing them out that I have seen. But out there on the daily conditioning circuit.

If Mr Jones, whose exsistence depends on the health and performance of his horses, had the least doubt his size was a problem for his horses? He wouldn't be out there.

You cannot tell me that strapping big hulk of a 17.1 hand filly was challenged by a simple gallop under her trainer. Who loved her, knew her every nuance and mood because he does ride her.

Certainly did not hurt her dainty little stablemate who blew the Oaks field away on Friday...and didn't he have Hard Spun last year?

Sorry, find him and his horsemanship refreshing in this day of hedge fund ownership and guys in raybans and Italian suits hyping the next pump and dump scheme with a horse as the commodity.

If I win the lottery, he gets mine. I would be pleased to have him aboard in the mornings.

[cowgirljenn]

Thanks to those of you providing interesting info and insights. Like many, I watched the Derby and shed a tear for Eight Belles and all of her people/connections. I don't particularly care for the age they're raced at, but I don't know enough about racing and came here to learn more. So I appreciate the links to good, informative articles. I wish I was still at A&M - would have loved to have been involved in that study.

[Beverley]

The most intelligent thing I can say about Eight Belles is that sometimes bad things just happen. There doesn't always have to be someone or something to blame.

Completely agree.

Very sad and somewhat dismaying that many posts on this BB in general seem to support the HSUS and PETA mindset. Probably well intentioned folks who have no clue that these two organizations are really about radical animal rights and couldn't care less about animal welfare.

Other thought in passing is that I have, several times now, seen people speculating that the fact that the heavy trainer rode this filly somehow contributed to her breakdown. That is nonsense. Please stop speculating.

I fear that some people get wrong impressions about how much MOST trainers care about their horses. Just as farmers/ranchers adopt a stoic attitude about the animals they kill, or sell, for food, pretty much anybody who makes a career working with livestock knows that death and injury are going to happen despite best care and best efforts, and create for themselves an emotional shell that is perceived by people as 'uncaring.'

And what is really, really frustrating to me is that what gets lost in the shuffle amidst all the emotional hoopla is that people fuss and fume over an animal that had a great life and suffered for only a few moments if at all. Those same people are probably oblivious to horses in their neighborhood, even in their own barn, that have things like ulcers or lameness or teeth that need floating that are in greater discomfort than that filly for days, weeks, months on end.

[Acertainsmile]

As far as weight of the rider...Personally I've always tried to find good smaller riders. Usually 130 pounds, unless the horse is really difficult...then I may use someone with a little more "substance"...

I've been on the East Coast galloping/training for 25 yrs, and was amazed at the size of the riders when I spent a winter at the Hot Springs meet...There were plenty of "heavier" riders out there.

I dont feel that Larry's size had any contributing factors to this filly breaking down, it's possible that genetics played a part, or not.

[Anne FS]

And what is really, really frustrating to me is that what gets lost in the shuffle amidst all the emotional hoopla is that people fuss and fume over an animal that had a great life and suffered for only a few moments if at all. Those same people are probably oblivious to horses in their neighborhood,

I disagree with this one point (agreed with everything else you said). Another horrifying result of incidents like this is the now-closed Charles Town thread. People all up in arms, tracking down people's vets and asking them what's really wrong with some guy's horse, arranging to have MULTIPLE people drive by his farm and photograph everything, putting their nose in other people's business just because they can. It's for the horses!

Suddenly everybody's an expert and hears something they admit is 3rd hand but they publish it on the internet anyway and use that innuendo and rumor as an excuse to invade people's privacy. Really scary stuff.

[Hrsnaround]

but, I live in Delaware, and our local paper, The News Journal, has actually, surprisingly, been good about the reporting it has done on the topic. I am normally not a fan of the paper, but they have provided "non-emotional", factual reporting on the topic over the past few days. This morning's paper had an interview with Mr. Porter in which he defended Mr. Saez, as well as defended his decision about having the filly in the race to begin with. The article also mentioned that some of the spectators at Delaware Park heckled Mr. Saez on Monday after he rode a race - very sad. Also mentioned that PETA protestors tried to get into Delaware Park on Monday and protest at Larry Jones's barn but were turned away by security.

[lrkrame2]

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2008/05/06/The-Sound-of-Silence.aspx


very well written commentary from Mr. Liebman at the Bloodhorse..

[shawneeAcres]

One thing I was thinking about the other day. Is it possible to do bone density scans on horses and if so, does it show anything definitive? Jsut a question, but bone DENSITY, not the size of bone, is what matters. One would think that if an individuals bone density were high, that, in the case of tiring or misstep the likelyhood of fracture would be reduced. Just curious, is this part of the study they plan to do (study the density that is)? I know density can be affected by severalt hings, one is obviosuly genetics, second is a gradual workload increase, allowing the bone to model itself slowly to the added stress, third is nutrition. One thing that does happen in sales yearlings, is they push them to GROW rapdily which produces much less dense bone, curious how much that may affect these young TB's. These are jsut random thoughts!

[Inverness]

Thanx to all for posting the rational analyses of this tragedy. I truly enjoy watching racing but I can no longer watch it "live." The excitement/thrill I experience in watching a live broadcast has been slowly overcome by a - perhaps irrational - fear of witnessing an injury.

I'll continue to enjoy racing via recording - after I've ascertained whether the race was free of catastrophic injury.

This is bound to be a difficult time for the industry and I hope that the ensuing research goes far in advancing veterinary science for all horses.

[Twomanydawgs]

My 3 yrs on the track mare never got over the issue of being last in the barn or last in the paddock, she knew that that could mean a trip to the slaughterhouse, smart girl, but she was bred and raised and trained so she survived 3 yrs on the track, thanks to Mrs. Gallagher of Kentucky, her breeder.

HUH???:no: Who told the mare that being last meant a trip to the slaughterhosuse? Are you kidding us with this???

[findeight]

HUH???:no: Who told the mare that being last meant a trip to the slaughterhosuse? Are you kidding us with this???


Yeah...missed that. You know this horse knows all about things beyond the moment because????

[LilyPerch13]

I, too, am just a fan of the sport of horse racing, but wanted to thank the OP for wanting to post for thoughtful information regarding Eight Belles.

Right now, many of my horsey friends are up in arms and are counted amongst those who will "never watch racing again". I will continue to watch, and enjoy, thoroughbred racing. Why? Because I enjoy watching great athletes do what they're best at, and, the racing will continue whether I watch it or not. Frankly, I want to see a Triple Crown Winner in my lifetime.

Death happens in all equine disciplines - I personally saw a Belgian drop dead in the traces at a horse pull. It was horrible to watch, but what was worse was people in the stands immediately criticizing the teamster (who was sobbing over his horse, BTW).

What needs to happen is thorough, intelligent analysis, research and discussion. Are thoroughbreds really thinner-boned and have weaker feet than they did 50 years ago? I would guess that much work on a three-year old horse is too much, but hasn't it been done that way for over a hundred years? Although what happened to Eight Belles was shocking and horrific, weren't there 19 other horses on the field that finished the race uninjured? What would be considered statistically significant in terms of injuries/breakdowns? Also, haven't the statistics on catastrophic breakdowns improved since the eighties?

[Beverley]

I disagree with this one point (agreed with everything else you said). Another horrifying result of incidents like this is the now-closed Charles Town thread. People all up in arms, tracking down people's vets and asking them what's really wrong with some guy's horse, arranging to have MULTIPLE people drive by his farm and photograph everything, putting their nose in other people's business just because they can. It's for the horses!

Suddenly everybody's an expert and hears something they admit is 3rd hand but they publish it on the internet anyway and use that innuendo and rumor as an excuse to invade people's privacy. Really scary stuff.

The Charles Town thread has nothing to do with my point. That is lynch mob mentality. But you raise an issue to be considered by lovers of all disciplines- if we don't police ourselves we WILL be subject to being policed by the unqualified and uninformed.

My point is that watching a horse break down on national tv stirs people up, but they are too busy pointing fingers and screaming to focus on the real welfare issues in their own back yards. How many horse owners out there who are thinking, in reaction to the Derby, that horse racing is 'just awful,' own horses that have undiagnosed bleeding ulcers, for example? IOW they are oblivious to their own shortcomings in horse management whether caused by ignorance or neglect, but quick to jump on the let's bash racing bandwagon. Don't know if this clarifies or not!

[Twomanydawgs]

to OP, on the 4 year old daughter devastation thread you made the comment i've been witholding about channeling Barbaro--I've been wondering how many people were disappointed they were deprived of months of jingling, candle lighting, and prayer vigils when the filly was put down promptly. This thread has been quite intelligent, and for this I thank you.

I come over here at all in anticipation of a LOT of "what about the children?" threads, which i find full of unconcious humor. Little precious grows up thinking that meat comes from the grocery store, and that death only happens to Other People.

How many people were deprived of months of jingling,candle lighting and prayer vigils. You feel deprived Jeano? Please tell me I misunderstood your post. PLEASE.

Moving on...Am I correct in my thinking that the Eng bred horses are much more coarse than the American breds? And does anyone know the comparison between the number of horses breaking down here verus there?

[Beverley]

My 3 yrs on the track mare never got over the issue of being last in the barn or last in the paddock, she knew that that could mean a trip to the slaughterhouse, smart girl, but she was bred and raised and trained so she survived 3 yrs on the track, thanks to Mrs. Gallagher of Kentucky, her breeder.

You know, I think you mean well, but statements like this support the notion that you are lacking in basic knowledge, no matter how many decades you've been watching racing.

Horses do not know from slaughterhouses. There are many different reasons your mare would have been anxious about being solo in a barn or a paddock. One of those could be the concept of being attacked by a predator, certainly, but to theorize that your 'smart gal' new about meat processing plants is, well, ridiculous, sorry.

[hessy35]

I don't know why so many people don't ever bring up the obvious - these horses are too young to be pounding down a stretch at that distance at those speeds. Their bones are not fully formed and horses do not stop growing until they are 5 years of age. Putting a horse on the track at 2 is just asking for it to break down.. and even if they are well trained and strong, their bones are still not finished growing. In my opinion, that is why most races horses are washed up by 5 (the actual age for full growth). If you want to see injuries like these disappear, then stop training race hoses at such a young, vulnerable age.

[Twomanydawgs]

Not ever going to happen Hessy and I think you are right but it's all about the $$$. If people have to wait 5 years to race their horses they will lose money...Racing is big money...did you see all the Visa logos on the guys at the gate...EVERYTHING had some kind of advertisement on it...every sentence said by the announcers contained a plug of some sort...breeders get big money for some of their yearlings...that would go out the window if they were forced to wait until the horses were older..it just all boils down to money...from the mare owners right on down to the states who have their hand out for their take of the betting money. Don't know the answers...but don't think you will see too much change unfortunately.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Moving on...Am I correct in my thinking that the Eng bred horses are much more coarse than the American breds? And does anyone know the comparison between the number of horses breaking down here verus there?

No one knows, because there is no one stat anywhere. I have seen different estimates trotted out from time to time, usually putting US racing anywhere in the 1.3-2.0/1000 fatalities/start range, and European flat racing in the .5-1.0/1000 range. But don't kid yourself, there are catastrophic breakdowns in high profile races on the other side of the Atlantic too. Remember Horatio Nelson breaking a leg in the Derby two years ago, and his jockey holding him in the stretch three legged in front of 100,000 people? Or Gypsy King breaking his shoulder and collapsing in the Irish Derby in 2005?

TB breeding is international, bloodlines are quite mixed up. A lot of US bred horses race in Europe, albeit bred for turf racing (the winner of the Guineas on Sat, Henrythenavigator, is a KY bred son of Kingmambo... see the Guineas thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=145911)). Flat race pedigrees tend to have converged. If anything there is a divergence with Turf vs Dirt, not so much one side of the atlantic vs the other. There are a few hold outs with distinct pedigrees, like Monsun (http://www.pedigreequery.com/monsun) (see Guineas thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=145911) for mention of him). But flat racers in general don't look all that different.
Now, the classic National Hunt horse would look different from the modern TB seen on the backside of a US track, but even then horses are individuals so there are plenty of exceptions. Besides, a NH bred horse would be useless in US racing, they would be way too slow, as it's a whole different ball game.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Precocious horses vs late developers and stayers-

The statistics on catastrophic injuries since the late 1800's would be informative- if they exist for all that period of time and if there is concurrence on what a catastrophic injury is. (I'm not trying to be flip here, is it muscular, bone breaks, or only bone breaks that result in the horse being put down?)

As for the last 100 years and how horses were treated, I was reading some information last night on Domino. That horse was raced hard when young and began to bow tendons, if the information is correct, and was "achy" during most of his career.

Following that line to Colin, it was said that he too, retired due to soundness issues, but his main competitor at the time, Fair Play, raced on and raced sound.

There may be some genetic issues there, no doubt, but as part of those issues, I began to wonder if there is also a connection to those precocious horses and how fast they develop, to soundness and durability. Do late developers last longer because they can't be run successfully at younger ages, or is the precocious horse a victim of his own abilities at a young age, i.e., the talent expresses young but the lack of structure to support it is the trade off of the early talent? I don't mean the compromise is because they are then run too young, but that in the genetics of what makes up precocious horses is perhaps less dense bone.

Does the precocious horse "finish up" his physical development faster, but at the cost of less dense bone? Is there a trait that says, "OK, done maturing," even if the bone structure hasn't caught up?

Does a late maturing horse develop better bone, and why? Is it a matter of how long they get to mature, or a difference in the process itself of creation of the bone structure and the time involved in laying that down?

If breeding for speed is the problem, what is it about the traits of "speed" and the genetics of how the bone is developed that creates the fragility?

And maybe the horses in the last derby would not all be considered precocious, but still had the bloodlines for that.

(Of course with the champions of the past, like Man O' War, they seem to have had both going for them- and maybe that is part of the difference)

[hessy35]

Not ever going to happen Hessy and I think you are right but it's all about the $$$. If people have to wait 5 years to race their horses they will lose money...Racing is big money...did you see all the Visa logos on the guys at the gate...EVERYTHING had some kind of advertisement on it...every sentence said by the announcers contained a plug of some sort...breeders get big money for some of their yearlings...that would go out the window if they were forced to wait until the horses were older..it just all boils down to money...from the mare owners right on down to the states who have their hand out for their take of the betting money. Don't know the answers...but don't think you will see too much change unfortunately.


I know it's about money.. but think how much MORE money owners would make with sound horses that could run for 3 or 4 years?? It's backwards thinking and greed talking.... Instead of talking about the track surface causing all of these problems, talk about the TRUTH - the hoses are too young.

[slc2]

sure moderator horselips, as nice as you've been to me here i really want to do whatever you say.

about the same time you stay off any threads i start, and quit with the personal threats and insults. :lol:

[Rev-Rider]

Does anyone know if there going to release the necropsey, (Ehhh spelling) results? Some of the public is saying insurance $$$ was to blame for putting her down so quickly. IMO if it's as bad as they say, the quicker the better. As for the jockey, I saw the tapes and hes lucky he wasn't hurt or killed in that kind of fall.I think I'm joining the "Worried about the preakness club"

[harvestmoon]

Does anyone know if there going to release the necropsey, (Ehhh spelling) results? Some of the public is saying insurance $$$ was to blame for putting her down so quickly.

Nooo, they put her down so quickly because her injuries would have been impossible to fix. She only had her two hind legs to stand on.

[Rev-Rider]

Does anyone know if there going to release the necropsey, (Ehhh spelling) results? Some of the public is saying insurance $$$ was to blame for putting her down so quickly. IMO if it's as bad as they say, the quicker the better.

Well, If your going to quote me might as well use the whole statement. I under stand she had no front fetlocks. My question is, are they going to release x-rays, or any information reguarding previous dammage to the legs or is it all going to be kept private? With Barbaro all the x-rays were out there, but then again he was still alive.

[harvestmoon]

Why? I quoted the part I responded to.

As for the rest, I have no idea. I doubt anyone here has any idea.

[grayarabs]

I also would like to know if horses are examined prior to racing - ie x-raying legs/hooves - bone density etc.
Also wonder about the size of the horse. Overall - smaller horses more sound than larger ones? Eight Belles was a very large filly, yes? If we could compare over the years size, soundness, racing longevity - how would that look? Past hundred years or more - hasn't the TB become taller? (correspondingly longer more fragile legs?). Wasn't it AMcKaySmith
some years ago suggesting to add Arab blood back into TB's for soundness and endurance?
(Of course that won't happen for racehorses). Thinking outloud - was it Northern Dancer that was smallish? I cannot recall his entire racing/soundness history. Wasn't Seabiscuit on the small side? He took his knocks but seemingly always recovered and raced for more than just a couple of years, right? Wonder what is average height of the Triple Crown winners? Or do we have to back much more than 100 years to see a smaller TB - with perhaps more Arab blood?

[Cayusepapoose]

I've been wondering about something that pertains to bone density, particularly the use of ferosemide or other diuretics. Is it usual practice to suppliment accordingly to offset bone demineralization when these drugs are used?

[LaurieB]

I also would like to know if horses are examined prior to racing - ie x-raying legs/hooves - bone density etc.



Racehorses are examined daily, often more than once, by their trainers, their grooms, and occasionally their owners. They're examined for soundness, for fitness, and for overall health. They're examined by vets if any of the above people deem it necessary.

[Glimmerglass]

Daily Racing Form Posted 5/6/2008, 5:25 pm (http://drf.com/news/article/94324.html)

Heart failure or aneurysm ruled out, owner says

By GLENYE CAIN OAKFORD
LEXINGTON, Ky. - Preliminary results from the necropsy on Eight Belles showed that the filly did not have heart failure or an aneurysm before breaking down in Saturday's Kentucky Derby, according to her owner, Rick Porter of Fox Hill Farms.

Eight Belles finished second behind Big Brown in the race but was euthanized after suffering condylar fractures in both front ankles as she galloped out.

Kentucky state stewards and state veterinarian Dr. Leif Nichols ordered the necropsy, the term for an autopsy performed on animals, and the procedure took place at the Livestock Disease Diagnostic Center in Lexington. Porter was unsure what day the necropsy took place.

A full report from the necropsy is expected to take at least two weeks. Eight Belles has been cremated, but Porter has not yet decided on an interment site.

"The initial report didn't show anything other than what it appeared to be," Porter said. "There was nothing with the heart or an aneurysm or anything like that. It came from the leg injuries.

"I know [trainer] Larry Jones wanted her tested for steroids, because he told me they were accusing him of using steroids because she was such a big filly, and I don't know how that's coming," he added, referring to protests against Jones by animal-rights groups. "I'm sure the results will be negative."

Porter noted that Eight Belles is by a large sire, the 17-hand Unbridled's Song, and said that the 3-year-old filly was not on anything other than Lasix, also known by the trade name Salix, a diuretic that is commonly and legally used on the racetrack to reduce blood pressure in the lungs during exercise.

"As far as I'm concerned, I'll be glad if they test her for anything," Porter said. "I see the bills, and I know Larry Jones, and I know he's not using anything that would be detrimental to the health of the horse. I know he puts the horse absolutely first. I see all the vet bills from Larry, and it's rare that I see a vet bill of $100 a month on a horse. I've never gotten a bill for an injection in two years.

"I didn't think we would find anything," Porter said of the necropsy. "I don't know what we can prove by it. I think it was just a tragic breakdown. . . . She was galloping out beautifully, absolutely normally, and then boom."

[horselips]

...Methinks the OP just wanted to be a thread starter ;)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tim_layden/05/05/eightbelles.aftermath/index.html?eref=T1

:lol:

Not at all. I wish I didn't have to add to the EightBelles Post Overload.
I tried to sort through that 22 page trainwreck, and could make no sense of it. I can't sit here that long right now (with a horribly compromised hip joint), and try to find the good posts from that one, and I'm sure there were many that I missed. After the 1st seven pages I gave up.

BTW, thanks for the SI link.


findeight,
I would be hap-hap-happy to put that guy on a "big, strapping 17.1 hh"...5 or 6 yo horse. He seems like a great guy, and an excellent trainer, and I was rooting for him.

However, with a horse that big you are asking for trouble because physiologically, they develop slower than a, say, 15.2 horse.

Many people mistakenly think that because a horse is BIG, why, they should handle weight with ease!

NOT a 2 or 3 yo horse. They are less likely to handle it unscathed than their smaller counterparts. Perhaps the trainer didn't know this.




Anyone remember how heavy Forego's exercise rider was? When he was 2 and 3 years of age?

[EMWalker]

I just read this article of ESPN and even though it is by a sports writer it has many valid points.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3382235&sportCat=horse

I really believe that line-breeding has become a major problem for the TB horse industry.The racing gene pool is becoming so small and I personally think that this is why so many more breakdowns are happening today then ever before. Breeders need to get back to breeding not solely for speed but also for sturdiness and stamina.

This article goes into her pedigree and that her grandsire, Unbridled, all be it sires fast horse, he also has been known to sire brittle horses. Two of his breeding sons (Grindstone and Unbridled Song, Eight Belles sire) were retired due to leg injuries.

And yes, Big Brown has some horrible feet (I know all about quarter cracks having dealt with one the past two years with my low slung heeled warmblood) and just because he is big and fast will he really pass along the genes that the racing industry needs????

Anyway, RIP Eight Belles. If the Barbaro tragedy didn't open enough eyes, I really think this one did so maybe there is some light at the end of this.

[Absolut Equestrian]

For the science nerds out there, a very interesting (and free) article on the response of bone to exercise:


The real response of bone to exercise
Alan Boyde
J Anat. 2003 August; 203(2): 173–189



http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1571152

[TappyShoes]

Laurierace and others, is there anything to this info from the SI.com article? If this comment is correct, is it unusual for a horse to be vocal during a race of this type?
"On Monday morning, Baffert said jockey Corey Nakatani, riding Colonel John, told him that when he passed Eight Belles on the turn, he heard the filly whinnying possibly in distress."

[Granada]

Does anyone know if the filly had her ankles x-rayed, or ultra-sounded anytime this spring?
It is common to routinely x-ray knees and lower legs of the really high-class horses as part of preventative medicine, isn't it?

Maybe no stress fractures were present, but I'm wondering about bone density.

I'm sure they would not have run her if they could detect any weakness or compromised structure, yet there must be some way to tell if things are beginning to deteriorate.


I am almost positive that a vet cannot see stress fractures on an x-ray. Obviously an ultrasound wouldn't tell much for bone. Other diagnostics, like an MRI, CT, bone scan, I *think* the horse needs to be heavily sedated for, maybe put on a table:confused:... I really don't know for sure.

Can a vet answer these diagnostic questions?

I wonder which diagnostics could be used as a preventative for bone injury and how accurate they would be.

Thanks for the OP, I hope this thread stays on topic with facts and not opinions, it has been very informative so far.

[Bosspaige]

Because I know there are some very smart race people on this board, and if I have to read one more omg!!!-im-so-sad-an-mi-dog-is-so-sad-2-n-mi-kid-is-cryin-hre-eyez-out!! post, I think I will just snap.

*slick this does NOT mean you. You are NOT a race-tracker, so please stay out of this thread. You are on my ignore, and know NOTHING about racehorses, so please slither back to the dressage forum. Thanks.

Maybe I can write one more unintelligent post just so you will snap....Then maybe we could have an INTELLIGENT thread on why exactly you did!!!!!! Could it be that too many non-race-trackers posted on YOUR forum? That you just couldn't handle the fact that people crossed over from other forums because they have an interest in what is going on in this one? Could it be that you just couldn't handle the stress of having to not read a post you weren't interested in? Maybe you are carrying to much weight? Hmmmm........

These forums are open to everyone and if you aren't interested in a topic that is posted, here is a novel concept, don't read it!!!!!

[Beverley]

These forums are open to everyone and if you aren't interested in a topic that is posted, here is a novel concept, don't read it!!!!!

Just curious, is that a two way concept?:cool:

[BabyGoose]

[QUOTE

I've only seen one double-legged injury in 25 years of racewatching (and that includes the nightly race recaps of the day's races of multiple tracks), and that was a two-year-old who broke both knees rounding the final turn about 20 years ago in a cheap maiden claimer.

[/QUOTE]

I know of two other instances where two front legs were broken. Years ago at the QH race the All American Futurity a horse broke both front legs at the finish line. I thankfully was not there in person, but saw it on TV.

Then I saw an article several months ago about racetrack breakdowns on a track in Texas and they had a very gruesome photo of a horse "standing" on what was left of two broken front legs similar to the one of Eight Belles, only worse if that is possible. I don't recall if that was a QH race or not, or at what point in the race it happened. Uncommon maybe, but maybe more common than people would like to think.

[~Freedom~]

Thanks for all the info and articles, people.

I know it is common, and even desirable to put a heavier rider on a horse for it's workouts; it helps get them fit.

But while 160 - 180 may be reasonable, 200 does seem excessive. Especially for the speed works, and especially for such a large - and therefore even slower to mature physically - 3yo.

I can't help but think in this instance the extra weight might have contributed to a weakening of the bones. When she got tired, the bones gave out.



Wasn't Phar Lap's trainer doing the same thing way back when he was racing. From all the reports I read it was that grueling training regime that in part at least gave that horse the strength it did. Or am I wrong here?

[EponaRoan]

A person I trust from a TB breeding list was about 20-30 feet from the breakdown when it happened. She wrote that the filly broke her right front first, went down and broke her left front when she attempted to get up the third time. The jockey was trying to keep her down and calling for help. He was also crying.

It's a sad and heartbreaking thing. I feel for the people who took care of her every day. I'm sure there's a huge hole in their hearts and I'm sure they're asking themselves a lot of "what if? "what did?" questions.

[findeight]

Laurierace and others, is there anything to this info from the SI.com article? If this comment is correct, is it unusual for a horse to be vocal during a race of this type?
"On Monday morning, Baffert said jockey Corey Nakatani, riding Colonel John, told him that when he passed Eight Belles on the turn, he heard the filly whinnying possibly in distress."

The only turn I recall Colonel John passing Eight Belles on would be the first turn AFTER she broke down.

The only passing that occured during the race would be EB passing CJ, if she ever did pass him-I believe he was well back behind her most of the race and certainly from the far turn on to the wire.

So it may be true but only after the race, not whinnying in distress as she ran.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Well, If your going to quote me might as well use the whole statement. I under stand she had no front fetlocks. My question is, are they going to release x-rays, or any information reguarding previous dammage to the legs or is it all going to be kept private? With Barbaro all the x-rays were out there, but then again he was still alive.

The radiographs are confidential. They would only be released with owner permission.

As you state, all medical history is PRIVATE. The public has no right to it, and in my opinion, demanding said information is pretty callous. This isn't a witch hunt. It's OBVIOUS what happened to this poor horse. She broke her legs. It was an unfortunate, freak accident. If she had been blowing out in a morning workout and not in front of millions of television viewers, there would have been a paragraph on her demise in the Thoroughbred news media and life would go on with nary a ripple.

Does racing have problems? Oh, absolutely. Is the racing world aware of them? Again, absolutely. Are things changing? Yes. For the better? For the most part, yes. But it's an evolutionary process and there are mistakes made (i.e. Santa Anita's synthetic track debacle - now corrected), and the results of some current changes won't be evident for years. But it isn't like the majority of the racing world is sitting around saying, "Oh shit. There goes another one. Too bad. Carry on."

The racing world was just as horrified by Eight Belle's breakdown as the rest of you. In fact, I would venture to say MORE horrified. Much more.

[Mao]

Regarding public opinion - I'm a long time racing fan. No, I will not stop watching horse racing. Because for every Ruffian - there is an Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed/Alydar. They are extraordinary animals and it is a riveting sport for those - like me - who watch from afar.

That said, I'm very saddened by Eight Belles. In my opinion - as a fan - is that for better or worse, Barbaro replaced Secretariat as the public face of racing. And I think horse racing was 'given a pass' or 'forgiven', so to speak, about Barbaro because of the extraordinary effort to save him. And I say that as someone who didn't agree with those efforts.

So fast forward just a few years, and there is the high profile Derby breakdown of Eight Belles. Of course they - the general public - presume the worst of horse racing. Unlike diehard fans - that's all they know. So maybe the maryterdom of Barbaro did more harm than good to their perception of horse racing.

And timing is everything - and this has come so close on the heels of the Rolex debacle. I wonder how much the negative press will ripple through and damage the industry - combined already with economic downturn and general pessimism in the country.

So I'm very curious about attendence and TV ratings of the remaining TC races. Will people really stay away? Or will they come in droves - looking for another trainwreck? It's all very sad.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Well said, Mao. Thank you.

[Vandy]

Speaking as a horse industry professional who is not part of the racing world, thank you for this thread, especially all the links to articles/studies. I am learning a lot.

[Spoilsport]

I am somewhat amused by the title of this thread. Do you want an "intelligent" thread or one where others agree with you? I'm not asking to be snarky (honest) but because this is a topic where there are lots of legitimate points of view. I, for one, find it "unintelligent" to compare racing and eventing. But that's just my opinion. I have also been taught that when anyone starts a conversation or thread with "lets have an intelligent conversation (or thread)," you don't really even want to go there :lol:

Now if what you want is a discussion where people stick to facts and back up what they say with research, or at least differentiate between fact, assertion, theory and speculation. . . now, that's a different story ;)

[ArtilleryHill]

To answer an earlier question about whether the necropsy results will be made public ...

As I read the statutes governing the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority, there is no requirement that the state disclose the results of any necropsy it orders on a horse. But if findings in the necropsy result in a full-scale investigation by the KHRA, that would seem to make releasing that information a lot more likely under the statutes.

The KHRA rules/regs are available online at

http://www.khra.ky.gov/rulesregs

Wording under Section 16, regarding veterinary forms, states: "The KHRA-2 form shall be confidential, and its content shall not be disclosed except in the course of an investigation of a possible violation of this administrative regulation or in a proceeding before the stewards or the Authority, or to the trainer or owner of record at the time of treatment."

While that's not specific to necropsies, the finding of anything untoward or illegal in the necropsy--which I doubt will happen in this case, incidentally--would open an investigation, and that would seem to throw public light onto related documents like the vet records and the necropsy results, too.

Of course, it appears that the filly's owner is, at least so far, openly discussing the preliminary results, so he might be equally open with the full report regardless of whether the KHRA is.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Did they go over the track where the accident happened? Was there a hole, soft spot, or even just a dip that might have been the culprit?

Goodness knows that even a small hole, at a canter, can cause swelling in a leg. Happened to a young filly of mine in the pasture and yes, I went over and over that pasture before we used it. (New one) Plus, we did chiropractic for her back because when they compensate, other things happen. Likely, the first injury to Eight Belles, as described, caused the other as they get legs and joints in awkward positions to try and catch themselves on top of the now extra weight bearing. Not to say this filly didn't have the breeding for a light underpinning.

As for the media, keep in mind that real journalism is no longer practiced in this country. It's "Infotainment," if you call tragedy entertainment. It's little work for most of the "journalists," they keep the story front and center because of the sensationalist aspects of it, and it has video. If that video didn't exist you wouldn't be seeing as much about it and they would have been dropping the story back, because every story has to have video nowdays. There is a reason its called "Faux News." If it were real news, it would be presenting the facts that are known, not flogging and accusing people of things they didn't do or giving air time to those who do.

If you think racing is in a sad state, the media is in far worse shape.

Boxing, an alleged sport, is truly brutal and inhumane, yet on it goes. Maybe the media should study the stats on deaths in boxing and people permanently brain damaged and ask the same questions they're asking of racing.

[findeight]

If it bleeds, it leads.

It has been ever thus.

[ArtilleryHill]

Castdorule, regarding this:

<<As for the media, keep in mind that real journalism is no longer practiced in this country.>>

<<If it were real news, it would be presenting the facts that are known, not flogging and accusing people of things they didn't do or giving air time to those who do.>>

Just out of curiosity, which of the articles posted on this thread do you feel is "sensationalistic"? I agree with you that there is a LOT Of "lowest-common-denominator" stuff out there. But from the links posted here, and from other coverage I've seen, there certainly is some good, thoughtful reporting going on over this topic. The NY Times blogs on "The Rail" have had some good information, and so have the horse-industry trades, and a good number of general sports reporters also seem to be grappling with the issues--not making wild accusations or being sensationalistic.

Speaking of the NY Times, your comment along the lines of "why don't they look at boxing" reminded me that one of the dark-side-of-sports pieces the Times did within the last couple of years was to examine the long-term effects of hits in football, and whether the players damaged by those hits over the time of their careers are now being adequately looked after (covered by insurance, for example). And there is a grand tradition of covering boxing problems that goes back years. Racing is in the spotlight now not only because of the highly public nature of these breakdowns but also because, unlike virtually all other sports, state governments have a substantial stake in and indeed oversee the conduct of racing--making racing a bit more of a public issue, in that it is state-regulated and the state also benefits from it.

I'm not saying all journalists are saints, not by any means! Quite a number are truly ignorant about the subjects they are entrusted to cover, and the papers do have to sell to stay in business. But I just hate seeing any group tarred with a single broad brush. There is some good work out there being done.

[pandorasboxx]

Boxing, an alleged sport, is truly brutal and inhumane, yet on it goes. Maybe the media should study the stats on deaths in boxing and people permanently brain damaged and ask the same questions they're asking of racing.

If people, with free will, make the decision to punch the brains and life out of each other for money and sport then that is their choice.

When jockeys start riding other humans around the track, well the analogy may work. Otherwise, not comparable.

And fwiw, there have been exposes, studies etc. of boxing dangers. Crops up every time there is a high profile death or catastrophic injury.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

In my area, the news is just riding on the sensationalism of this story. On this thread, more thoughtful stuff. The stories that allege jockey abuse and trainer abuse- or even hint at it....sorry, too many. Those are not the questions to be asking.

I should not have used such a broad brush. There are some thoughtful articles coming out now and I hope that those will prevail and that the media will let the owners, trainer and jockey alone in their grief. It will be interesting to see if there is any follow up in the general media- not just the equine interest media- on what is learned from this accident.

I think there is an analogy to racing and boxing. I haven't been around any horse I could force to do something, any more than a boxer goes in the ring of his own volition.

Just on this forum, how many times have people told of acquiring an OTTB who just didn't like racing? Sent a horse on to another career because it didn't like jumping or dressage? That they don't voice their opinion does not mean they don't have one and don't express it in other ways. Are trainers going to waste time on a horse that they have to force to the track every day?

I think there is far more hope for improvement in horse racing than in boxing.

[asb_own_me]

No track rat but have been on the backside in the AM at various tracks, some marquee and some fairgrounds types. Seen good sized men and women-usually trainers and assistants-out there galloping. Not breezing or blowing them out that I have seen. But out there on the daily conditioning circuit.

If Mr Jones, whose exsistence depends on the health and performance of his horses, had the least doubt his size was a problem for his horses? He wouldn't be out there.

You cannot tell me that strapping big hulk of a 17.1 hand filly was challenged by a simple gallop under her trainer. Who loved her, knew her every nuance and mood because he does ride her.

Certainly did not hurt her dainty little stablemate who blew the Oaks field away on Friday...and didn't he have Hard Spun last year?

Sorry, find him and his horsemanship refreshing in this day of hedge fund ownership and guys in raybans and Italian suits hyping the next pump and dump scheme with a horse as the commodity.

If I win the lottery, he gets mine. I would be pleased to have him aboard in the mornings.

Agreed, agreed, and agreed....on all points.

I am watching Neil Cavuto on FoxNews and he just interviewed the trainer and the owner. PETA makes me absolutely ill, with their accusations flying at everyone and everything. The PETA spokeswoman, besides blaming the jockey, was accusing the trainer of drugging the filly and the owner of funding horse abuse. She also said that everyone who tuned in to the race on TV or bets on horse racing is at fault. Who knew that paying $2 and having a paper ticket printed broke the filly's legs? :rolleyes:

Something was brought up about joint injections and Mr. Jones said that probably two of his racehorses in the last 15 years had ever gotten joint injections. It really pissed me off that he was being questioned about something that is a routine procedure in many racing, show and performance barns.

[ravenclaw]

PETA makes me absolutely ill, with their accusations flying at everyone and everything. The PETA spokeswoman, besides blaming the jockey, was accusing the trainer of drugging the filly
Yeah, I guess Larry Jones has been accused of giving Eight Belles steroids because she was so tall. I wonder if anyone bothered looking up her sire to see that he is a tall horse.

It's interesting that a group supposedly so concerned about the ethical treatment of animals doesn't care if people get ethical treatment or not. :sigh:

[Linny]

Hi Y'all, I have been swamped with work and a sick child and lack of COTH access at work but at the request of the OP, I'll chime in.

A few points, first, I am not an entirely impartial observer. I have met Larry Jones, seen him work, interviewed him and must say, I adore him. As both a man and a horseman he is first class! His wife Cindy is his primary assistant and she is a great lady and horsewoman. EB's grrom Corey York also took care of Hard Spun last season. I've met and like Gabe Saez and Ruben Munoz, his agent. This group of people is a great hands on team who I respect a great deal.

I cannot fathom how upsetting this experience has been to the entire team. Larry Jones is hands on and as noted rides many of his horses including the last two Derby runners-up. He gallops them but doesn't breeze them. (Breezing is the timed fast work.) I don't think that his doing so contributed to Eight Belles death, not one bit. In fact bone density is supplemented by weight bearing. The filly's injuries were freakish in their extemity and that one leg giving out led to the other doing so, when she wasn't going that fast. As mentioned in a link article, as fatigue sets in so does the potential for harm. Many horses will get careless as they ease up and this filly didn't have the best of gaits under the best circumstances. I might even wonder if she didn't hit herself hard enough to start the chain reaction with the condylar fracture. (This is my conjecture not a vet's!)

As for the furor over this sad event, I like other horsemen and women want to see all measures taken to assure the safety of the horses and by extension the humans involved. As a racing person, I understand the "circle the wagons' mentality. I hate to see my sport bashed by those who don't understand it and don't care about it unless groups like PETA are raving about it. It's only national news when something goes wrong. I feel like the air traffic control center who lands 10,000 flights a day for decades then has a crash. Where was the media when all those planes were landing safely?
I can see why racing doesn't care to air its dirty laundry before the court of public opinion. Sadly, I think that breeders, in response to buyers (most breeders are commercial, they breed to sell, not race) are breeding a weaker product, on the whole. When most horses were bred with an eye toward the breeder eventaully using the horse in his own breeding program, they bred for toughness and soundness. The breeding for fashion and "page appeal" at the sales is harmful. Medication and steroids are harmful. Raceday meds like Lasix have allowed thousands of horses into the gene pool who decades ago wouldn't have been there. Colts who need Lasix to get to the saddling paddock are winning watered down G1 races and thus earning the right to contribute (often mightily, with stallions covering over 200 mares a year!) to the gene pool. Decades ago horses with respiratory weakness wouldn't have had such success on track and thus wouldn't have been important sires, if at all.
As for steroids, there is no telling (and I don't presume to know) what they could be doing to our horses. A sad irony for me is that Eight Belles (and all Larry Jones' horses) run w/o steroids. In the week before the Derby Rick Dutrow (he's a whole 'nother thread) was stating plainly in non less than the New York Times that all his horses get a shot of Winstrol on the 15th of every month. Now PETA is after Jones about steroids, when Dutrow is the one bragging and raising the Derby trophy.
As for responsibilty of Gabe Saez, I agree wholeheartedly with Larry Jones. The young man rode a great race. The Oaks was his first G1 win, he's just run 2nd in the biggest race of his life only to watch the horse that got him there die on the track seconds later. He is part of a close knit group and Jones gave him a let up at Delaware on Monday. There was nothing he could do.

I have brought many people onto the backstretch over the years, as a guest. Some were horsey but not "racing" and others knew little of horses or racing. Oddly, most were shocked at how well cared for the horses are. The sight of grooms playing with their charges or hot walkers and riders cooing to them and spoiling them with treats, fussing over their equipment, stalls etc. was a surprise and I can't see why. Sadly, racing has not gotten that story out. Maybe it's because the owners with their fancy clothes or the trainers with their varied demeanors (brash Baffert, smooth Lukas etc) are easier to hone in on. Many grooms speak limited English and are less appealing to the camera.

I want to find way to get positive stories out there to at least balance what the mainstream sees as horseracing=evil, greedy people killing horses for sport.

[VentDependent]

Hi Y'all, I have been swamped with work and a sick child and lack of COTH access at work but at the request of the OP, I'll chime in.

A few points, first, I am not an entirely impartial observer. I have met Larry Jones, seen him work, interviewed him and must say, I adore him. As both a man and a horseman he is first class! His wife Cindy is his primary assistant and she is a great lady and horsewoman. EB's grrom Corey York also took care of Hard Spun last season. I've met and like Gabe Saez and Ruben Munoz, his agent. This group of people is a great hands on team who I respect a great deal.

I cannot fathom how upsetting this experience has been to the entire team. Larry Jones is hands on and as noted rides many of his horses including the last two Derby runners-up. He gallops them but doesn't breeze them. (Breezing is the timed fast work.) I don't think that his doing so contributed to Eight Belles death, not one bit. In fact bone density is supplemented by weight bearing. The filly's injuries were freakish in their extemity and that one leg giving out led to the other doing so, when she wasn't going that fast. As mentioned in a link article, as fatigue sets in so does the potential for harm. Many horses will get careless as they ease up and this filly didn't have the best of gaits under the best circumstances. I might even wonder if she didn't hit herself hard enough to start the chain reaction with the condylar fracture. (This is my conjecture not a vet's!)

As for the furor over this sad event, I like other horsemen and women want to see all measures taken to assure the safety of the horses and by extension the humans involved. As a racing person, I understand the "circle the wagons' mentality. I hate to see my sport bashed by those who don't understand it and don't care about it unless groups like PETA are raving about it. It's only national news when something goes wrong. I feel like the air traffic control center who lands 10,000 flights a day for decades then has a crash. Where was the media when all those planes were landing safely?
I can see why racing doesn't care to air its dirty laundry before the court of public opinion. Sadly, I think that breeders, in response to buyers (most breeders are commercial, they breed to sell, not race) are breeding a weaker product, on the whole. When most horses were bred with an eye toward the breeder eventaully using the horse in his own breeding program, they bred for toughness and soundness. The breeding for fashion and "page appeal" at the sales is harmful. Medication and steroids are harmful. Raceday meds like Lasix have allowed thousands of horses into the gene pool who decades ago wouldn't have been there. Colts who need Lasix to get to the saddling paddock are winning watered down G1 races and thus earning the right to contribute (often mightily, with stallions covering over 200 mares a year!) to the gene pool. Decades ago horses with respiratory weakness wouldn't have had such success on track and thus wouldn't have been important sires, if at all.
As for steroids, there is no telling (and I don't presume to know) what they could be doing to our horses. A sad irony for me is that Eight Belles (and all Larry Jones' horses) run w/o steroids. In the week before the Derby Rick Dutrow (he's a whole 'nother thread) was stating plainly in non less than the New York Times that all his horses get a shot of Winstrol on the 15th of every month. Now PETA is after Jones about steroids, when Dutrow is the one bragging and raising the Derby trophy.
As for responsibilty of Gabe Saez, I agree wholeheartedly with Larry Jones. The young man rode a great race. The Oaks was his first G1 win, he's just run 2nd in the biggest race of his life only to watch the horse that got him there die on the track seconds later. He is part of a close knit group and Jones gave him a let up at Delaware on Monday. There was nothing he could do.

I have brought many people onto the backstretch over the years, as a guest. Some were horsey but not "racing" and others knew little of horses or racing. Oddly, most were shocked at how well cared for the horses are. The sight of grooms playing with their charges or hot walkers and riders cooing to them and spoiling them with treats, fussing over their equipment, stalls etc. was a surprise and I can't see why. Sadly, racing has not gotten that story out. Maybe it's because the owners with their fancy clothes or the trainers with their varied demeanors (brash Baffert, smooth Lukas etc) are easier to hone in on. Many grooms speak limited English and are less appealing to the camera.

I want to find way to get positive stories out there to at least balance what the mainstream sees as horseracing=evil, greedy people killing horses for sport.

Linny, you said it. I am so tired of everywhere I turn having to defend my favorite sport (my family has had racehorses in the past) It's tough as a DVM, even small animal, but people are like "how can you support this horrible sport!!!? when you're a vet!" I'm going to steal your airplane analogy.

I do think PeTA is full of baloney though. I mean, I remember years ago the president or prime minister or director was quoted as saying she "regretted having to kill defenseless vegetables in order to survive" and that she thought you could hear carrots scream when you "ripped their poor bodies out of the ground" so she wouldn't eat them.

I mean, really folks.

[Linny]

I posted this on another site, I'll re-post. My feelings about PETA.

The PETA faithful believe that pet/animal ownership is slavery. (Having owned animals, I know this to be true, except unlike PETA, I believe that the human is the slave!) They feel that the horses at tracks and riding stables and show horse barns should be FREED, I don't know about you but I'm not sure how long Mr McGaughey's or Mr Contessa's stock would live on Hempstead Turnpike. I know that "my" boy wouldn't survive long in the middle of a main road just west of Albany NY.
Humans have chosen over eons to domesticate certain animals that they felt could provide service to the them. The exchange between animal and human has been generally mutually beneficial. Dogs, horses, oxen, cats, pigs etc got shelter, food and at least basic care in exchange for guardianship, labor and a ready food source. PETA feels that total reversal of the course of human history is fine, and in fact preferable to the path taken thus far.

[haligator]

Yeah, I guess Larry Jones has been accused of giving Eight Belles steroids because she was so tall. I wonder if anyone bothered looking up her sire to see that he is a tall horse.

It's interesting that a group supposedly so concerned about the ethical treatment of animals doesn't care if people get ethical treatment or not. :sigh:

I own (well, really, she owns me) a nice racehorse I bred who is 18.1 hands. Yep, 18.1. Did I use steroids? Nope. How did she get so big? Partly genetics and partly 'who knows?'

Xena (TJC name is Grade A. Fancy) is by the correct and enormous Malibu Moon (by A.P. Indy who is by Seattle Slew whose nickname was 'Baby Huey' - Moon stands at Gainesway for $40,000.00 now) out of an over 16.2 hand mare named Alden's Way, aka Doris. Doris is HUGE - tall and wide. She's by John Alden and a lot of the Speak John line are tall horses with big bones (and, they are often seen in eventing).

Sooooo, you take Doris and cross her with Malibu Moon and poof! You have Xena. I didn't race Xena until she was 4 years-old because of her size. I even had Paula Turner (the woman who broke Seattle Slew) come out to evaluate Xena when she was 3 years-old to see if she thought that Xena should maybe not race at all due to her size. Paula's advice was that she'd make a good racehorse but I should wait until she turned 4....and that's what I did.

For the record, Xena won a big Maiden Special Weight at Philly Park and went out to earn 2nds, 3rds, and fourths at the Allowance level. Her jockeys would joke that they were so high up they needed oxygen tanks.

Xena is now a hopeful broodmare, and someday if I can ride again she'll be a hunt and show horse for me. She is a sweetie with a heart of gold.

But did I give her steroids? Perish the thought. She had hay, oats, and water along with nutritional supplements and lots of love. Sometimes TBs just get large - like how some people attain remarkable heights.

It is my understanding that Larry Jones (the trainer of Eight Belles) has requested bloodwork done from the necropsy to prove he didn't use steroids. It truly bothers me that he and his team are guilty until proven innocent because a few wacko groups have taken information out of context. His team is suffering terrible sadness and are in mourning, but have to also deal with people calling them 'murderers.'

The world has gone nuts.

Best,
Hallie I. McEvoy
Racing Dreams, LLC

[sing]

I just started a great book on errors in health care, and they have a discussion about a safety analyst's ideas- he talks about these kind of events being like a chisel, with a sharp end and blunt end.

People tend to focus on the sharp end ( in this case the jockey or trainer) and ignore the dull end, which would be how the entire industry behaves in such a way to bring about an adverse event. Change occurs when you focus on the dull end of the chisel, blaming is pretty much all that gets done if the sharp end is the focus.

I see PETA as focusing on the sharp end, and that is certaninly a valid point to bring up when you are talking to people who are questioning PETAs statements. Just because people say things that seem ignorant doesn't mean they aren't open to new ideas or aren't interested in gaining knowledge. I am distressed by the death of Eight Belles, but also by the churlish behavior of some horsepeople in their approach to "outsiders."

[Bacchus]

I have two words for you guys: Toe Grabs.

She was the only horse out there that I could tell with them on, and the surface was sealed. It wasn't Larry Jones, or the jockey, or the whip, or her being too young, or her being a filly. I truly believe it was a combination of her shoes and the surface.

(Sorry, didn't have time to read this whole thing and did a search and couldn't find any reference in Racing in the past week on toe grabs, so thought I'd at least get people to talk about it or be aware of it.)

[Twomanydawgs]

You may be right on about the toe grabs:yes: plus those spindly little legs with the long sloping pasterns prob did not help either.

[DickHertz]

Toe grabs are responsible for a lot of injuries and breakdowns IMO (especially since most of the ones I see are the real aggressive toe grabs). The California Horse Racing Board did the right thing banning them. This is just another example of something every racetrack could implement in 2 seconds, but they just ignore it and pretend like there's no problem with toe grabs.

[Bacchus]

California banned toe grabs longer than 4 mm, but it's a start. Wish others would follow. Not quite sure why anyone would use them with the research that's been done.

[Glimmerglass]

I have not seen in print anyone say that Eight Belles had toe grabs.

If you have, please by all means provide the URL link.

I've seen the objections to toe grabs in general and the data cited at Welfare and Safety of the Racehorse Summit in January (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2007/April/25/Detrimental-effects-of-toe-grabs-outlined-to-commissioners.aspx). However that is a separate issue and like so many others that have been saddled onto the death of Eight Belles it seemingly doesn't pertain to her.

Again if someone claims that Larry Jones instructed Eight Belles' ferrier to have toe grabs I'd love to read it. However no such information that I can find - and I've hunted high and low - exists. In fact I read that Jones' primary ferrier is proponent against grabs.

[Bacchus]

I'll try to find a few of the articles, but all you have to do is open your May 10 Blood-Horse to page 2493. She does have inner rims on, too, but the toe grabs are longer than the rims.

[DickHertz]

I don't know if she had toe grabs on or not, but if she did I wonder what Larry Jones would say about front grabs now. I'm not saying that's why she broke down, but wondering if it does make Larry think about if that could have contributed in a small way.

[TheCROW]

If you look at the pedigrees of Eight Belles, Barbaro, Chelokee, and other horses that have suffered these sudden catastrophic breakdowns, and then look at the pedigree of Ruffian, you will see all were heavily inbred/linebred on Native Dancer lines.

Chelokee, who suffered a leg injury the day before Eight Belles tragedy, was closely related to her, being inbred on the same Native Dancer lines. All the Kentucky Derby entrants were linebred or inbred on Native Dancer.

Native Dancer's career was cut short by leg injuries, his descendants have shown the same fragile tendencies. (While producing brilliant racehorses, Native Dancer also has passed on soundness issues. Native Dancer himself retired early from leg injuries, although he still raced 22 times, 18 as a 2- and 3-year-old.) Native Dancer's propensity for producing unsoundness is well documented.

Raise a Native, who was a very muscular chestnut, heavy on the front end, was an extremely brilliant but unsound racehorse who had won all four of his starts before he broke down in front with a bowed tendon and was retired to stud.

Native Dancer was endowed with the physique of a world’s-strongest-man competitor but unfortunately that imposing structure was perched on upright pasterns. Moreover, the mating with Raise You added the tied-in tendons of Case Ace’s maternal grandsire Ultimus to the conformational mix. Raise a Native’s best offspring were so brilliant, however, that the flaws hardly seemed to matter to breeders.

His career shortened by recurring ankle injuries, Mr. Prospector retired to stud in 1975 at Savin Farm near Ocala and made an immediate impact when his first crop of two-year-olds in 1978 included champion two-year-old filly It’s in the Air.

Even Big Brown, racing's current celebrity, runs on hooves fortified with glue! He is not naturally sound. Take a look at the horses in Big Brown’s peidgree too. Bad feet isn't the only issue in Big Brown's genetic makeup. Horses in the last two or three generations of Big Brown's pedigree are all lightly raced animals that eventually broke down and were retired.

Unbridled's Song, the sire of Eight Belles, also had lower leg problems and actually retired from a stress fracture in the coffin bone (his SECOND stress fracture) after being plagued with hoof problems.

If you look at the pedigree of Ruffian, you see the same close linebreeding on Native Dancer.

Racehorses suffering catastrophic breakdowns are a far more common occurrence than most people realize, because the only ones that come to the attention of the general public, are those who have happened to break down at major events.

If you check the records here:
http://scrollsequus.blogspot.com/search/label/2008

You will probably be shocked at the number of horses that have suffered catastrophic breakdowns this year. That site also gives names and details of a multitude of horses that have broken down over the last few years. The list is not limited to 2 to 3 year olds either. Eight Belles unfortunatlly, has had plenty of company on her tragic journey from this world to the next.

Much of the problem is that racing is about speed, for that is what it takes to win. However, horses that don't break down to the point of requiring euthanasia, but that are retired young due to problems and are in demand in breeding, continue to produce their own inherent unsoundnesses. Big Brown for example, is one I've read is likely to be retired after this season.

Naturally, Big Brown will be in demand as a stud because of his race record. However, he will pass on his foot problems and other genetic flaws of his bloodlines.

What is needed is selective breeding for soundness, but that would likely also mean breeding for less speed. It's a tough situation because it pits speed, which is required to win races, against soundness which is for the betterment of the Thoroughbred breed as a whole. By balancing breeding for speed and breeding for soundness together, the ideal to strive for should be a thoroughbred that is fast, but is able to maintain natural soundness throughout most of the horse's natural life.

Breeding only for speed, and using drugs and high tech fixes to try to compensate for soundness problems, will only result in more tragedies such as Ruffian, Eight Belles, George Washington, Barbaro, and so many more.

[DickHertz]

I haven't been watching much TVG recently, but the last two times I watched I saw a horse breakdwon on Hollywood's cushion track. The one on Saturday was in front by 3 lengths and broke down at the 1/16th pole. Waveland Avenue was his name I believe.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Other than the two times he raced in the US, where he ran on Lasix, what drugs did George Washington race on?

As to inbreeding to Native D, how do the numbers of linebred NDs who breakdown stack up against the number of linebred NDs who race a long time? If you can't supply that then your research is beyond faulty.
Sure you can point to high profile breakdowns and see Native D linebreeding, but go over to this thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=90351&highlight=warriors), specifically dedicated to old warriors with long racing careers, and almost every horse mentioned in that thread is closely linebred to Native D. So what does that tell us? Nothing, other than most horses, sound and unsound have plenty of Native D.

Now I'm not saying that horses that are linebred to ND are more or less susceptible to breakdowns, but that if someone is going to make pronouncments then they should have the decencey to supply some proper data other than just throwing out a few token names and going "see, see!".
It's as bad as what you see over of the sporthorse breeding forum where when people ask about TB lines in jumping/eventing etc people throw out the same old generic names that are found in every horse and go "my brother's first cousin's aunt's brother had a horse that went preliminary and his great great grandfather was Buckpasser", and surmising from that that any horse with B-passer 5 generations back is a on his way to the Olympics.

[SEPowell]

If you look at the pedigrees of Eight Belles, Barbaro, Chelokee, and other horses that have suffered these sudden catastrophic breakdowns, and then look at the pedigree of Ruffian, you will see all were heavily inbred/linebred on Native Dancer lines.

Chelokee, who suffered a leg injury the day before Eight Belles tragedy, was closely related to her, being inbred on the same Native Dancer lines. All the Kentucky Derby entrants were linebred or inbred on Native Dancer.

Native Dancer's career was cut short by leg injuries, his descendants have shown the same fragile tendencies. (While producing brilliant racehorses, Native Dancer also has passed on soundness issues. Native Dancer himself retired early from leg injuries, although he still raced 22 times, 18 as a 2- and 3-year-old.) Native Dancer's propensity for producing unsoundness is well documented.


I have a horse out of a Restless Native mare who looks exactly like Native Dancer. He broke his maiden in an allowence race at Saratoga and went on to run in hurdle races until he bowed. Of course I didn't own him then. His owners/trainer stopped with him when it was clear he couldn't come back without reinjuring that tendon. Now I foxhunt him. I often wonder about whether or not that bloodline should continue (in the perfect:confused:world). Other qualities make him an amazing creature to ride and and care for and it's truly a privilege to own him. There is a brilliance in that line that's hard to resist. I can see why it's hard to walk away from that breeding.

[Linny]

Drumbiggle is correct. About 80% of modern TB's have some ND and many have several crosses. Does this mean that 80% of TB's are in dire peril?

Why is ND getting blamed, he was a pretty sound horse! You need to know how many horses are bred in a given way to even start to draw conclusions. ND wont show up in a pedigree any closer than 4 generations back today. In casting blame, you have to take into consideration all the other names in the pedigree.

[SEPowell]

Drumbiggle is correct. About 80% of modern TB's have some ND and many have several crosses. Does this mean that 80% of TB's are in dire peril?

Why is ND getting blamed, he was a pretty sound horse! You need to know how many horses are bred in a given way to even start to draw conclusions. ND wont show up in a pedigree any closer than 4 generations back today. In casting blame, you have to take into consideration all the other names in the pedigree.

Good point. And I don't think most tbs are in dire peril. Considering what they tend to do and how they do it they're incredibly sound athletes most of the time. I disagree with the ocean wave of voices who say the breed is fragile. And like any athlete, those who are most brilliant will push themselves to the edge; that's part of the magic of thoroughbreds, imo.:cool:

[LaurieB]

If you look at the pedigrees of Eight Belles, Barbaro, Chelokee, and other horses that have suffered these sudden catastrophic breakdowns, and then look at the pedigree of Ruffian, you will see all were heavily inbred/linebred on Native Dancer lines.

Chelokee, who suffered a leg injury the day before Eight Belles tragedy, was closely related to her, being inbred on the same Native Dancer lines. All the Kentucky Derby entrants were linebred or inbred on Native Dancer.


Applying your logic, it seems to me that all 20 entrants in the Derby should have broken down. I guess it's amazing that 19 finished in good health. :rolleyes:

[Pronzini]

Drumbiggle is correct. About 80% of modern TB's have some ND and many have several crosses. Does this mean that 80% of TB's are in dire peril?

Why is ND getting blamed, he was a pretty sound horse! You need to know how many horses are bred in a given way to even start to draw conclusions. ND wont show up in a pedigree any closer than 4 generations back today. In casting blame, you have to take into consideration all the other names in the pedigree.

And more than that, it's really vague and unclear to say a line is "unsound" and leave it at that. Unsound how? Tendons? Knees? Wind? Feet?

Then the inquiry should shift to what's causing the problem. I believe that many injuries are related to conformational issues, some to irregularities in the racing surface and some are luck driven--the proverbial bad step.

Different sire lines are known for conformational defects but even then I think we have to keep our inquiry in context. In my experience, the deviations that reputable TB breeders consider problematic especially in the front end wouldn't faze folks in other disciplines. In fact, some of the issues may not even be recognized by people in other disciplines as a problem especially when it comes to fairly subtle deviations of the knee. But most horses in most disciplines don't have to deal with the forces involved in racing and the tolerances consequently have to be pretty low. It's kind of like the difference between a racecar and the family Ford. If you could magically put an engine capable of 200 MPH in a factory produced car, it would probably fly apart at the seams in the first training run but the same car is perfectly capable of 10 years of low speed commutes.

[Twilight]

Interesting and thanks so much for posting the report. I had wanted to post a thread asking what folks thought had happened but didn't, thinking it would turn into a train wreck or another idiotic and pointless slaughter thread.

Thanks for the intelligent and well thought posts!!

[loriandlobo]

As much as society loves to place blame, we are better off if we sometimes say things just happen. I own and train a Thoroughbred racehorse. I started out at Ellis Park in Kentucky when Larry and Cindy Jones were stabled there. I knew them to the extent of exchanging hellos and small talk in the track kitchen or the shedrow on occassion. However, we do share several mutual friends. I have NEVER heard or witnessed 1 negative thing about either of them regarding the care they take of their horses. Unlike a lot of the leading "trainers", Larry is very hands-on with his horses. And yes, he actually TOUCHES them unlike many of his counterparts. I have always heard so much about his abilities as a horseman, not just a trainer - which anyone could be. Racing is a dangerous sport for both humans (jockeys) and horses. Sometimes there are ways to minimize the dangers, but sometimes no matter how diligent one is, accidents do happen. I, personally, believe horses should not be raced until at least the age of 3. They're just babies. Unfortunately, I don't make the rules. I have the luxury of owning and training my own horse. Therefore, I make my own decisions. Most trainers do not have that privilege. As tragic as the death of Eight Belles is, horses of all breeds and disciplines die as the result of freak accidents. They just don't do it on national television with millions of people watching.:sigh:

[jumperchique]

I feel that this was a fluke that could happen to any horse. there are risks in the racing industry, and that is something we have to face when the time comes. Its a sad reality. I saw it happen and was very sad, but i think what needs to be taken from this is how can we learn from it and is there anything we can do to prevent injuries like this from happening.

Also, as someone who admitently knows nothing about the industry or racing rules, are race horses allowed to wear some sort of polo or tendon wrap or something? Would this only hinder them at their fast speeds? Im just curious.

[loriandlobo]

Most trainers wrap the front, back, or all legs with Vet-wrap. Sometimes, for added support, you can put a few wraps around the leg, run 4 or 5 strips of duct tape up the back of the tendon, then finish wrapping the leg. Helps give a little added support and no worry about interfering with running like boots or polos might do.

[DickHertz]

Horses usually run in vet wrap. I'm not sure if polo's are forbidden, but if the jock came down and saw polo's on the horse, he'd go right back to the jock's room. I claimed a horse from a guy once who asked for his bandages back. They weren't the trace bandages, but something close, maybe they were just ace bandages, I don't remember.

[Annie B.]

I am sorry that this happened but they shouldn't be trying to blame somebody for what happened. Especially the jockey. if that horse wanted to run, which she more than likely did, she would be a handful to stop or slow down. I mean, look at Ruffian and Barbaro. They both tryied to keep running after they broke their legs. Eight Belles is not different. She might have felt something but the adrenaline would have more than likely masked it.

I think they are stupid for trying to balme somebody for what happened to her. It was one of those freak things that rarely happens. And they are trying to put blame on the owner and trainer to. I think its just wrong what they are doing. (they meaning PETA and others agreeing with PETA)