Modern tb frailty, and eventing

[denny]

What with Big Brown`s falling apart feet, Eight Belles fragile ankles, Barbaro`s brittle hind legs, it speaks volumes about where the modern tb is, and has been, headed.
Racing is increasingly all about high speeds, short distances at young ages, and breeders seem to care very little about intrinsic toughness, if early blazing speed is there.
Even the TB magazines are full of warnings about this, and when you talk with old fashioned TB breeders who remember the 50s-60s etc, they are in despair.
It strikes me that eventers will feel this pinch sooner or later, as our sport has long depended upon the racing leftovers.
Any thoughts where we`re going to get the soundness from that we need for our sport?
The Irish Draught lines?
The warmblood showjumper lines?
Mixed with what?

[CookiePony]

Purpose-bred TBs?

Even my dad, who does not ride but who was a Pony Club Dad some years ago, has been asking me about modern TBs' durability.

[Hilary]

When I bred my TB mare one of my biggest criteria for the stallion was good feet. My mare had typical thin TB feet - she didn't need glue-ons, but almost.

I was talking with the people standing Windstar (before he as fully at Phyllis Dawson's) and asked about his feet.

The reply was ...noise of phone being held away from head "Hey, does "Bounce" wear shoes? no? not even in front?" back to me: Ok, he's barefoot and seems fine that way.

He was competing at the time.

He passed that on to my mare who needs regular shoes, only sometimes does she need pads, but I live in NH, where we grow rocks as our state product, but her feet are tough, and grow fast.

Windstar is half ID, half TB.

It's very troubling how the TB has been bred to last barely 3 years.

A friend of mine has a full TB, though, who has amazing feet, so not all of them are awful.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Any thoughts where we`re going to get the soundness from that we need for our sport?



TBs not breed for the track. They are still some good ones out there and some race breeders who do focus on soundness...and since many of their bloodlines are not as fashionable with race barns, you can some times find them affordably.

I also think you still do find some people breeding for timber and steeple chase...and there they are looking for soundness and longevity more then early speed. I've noticed a few were imported from South America...so I wonder what their TB breeding is doing. One of the nicest event horses that I knew was a TB that came from South America (this was 10+ years ago). I know many have similar lines as KY bred...but perhaps removed enough or other harder to find lines mixed in.


But it is hard. I have a mare with some good old TB blood. Tough tough girl too...bounced back from broken withers in very little time. Her dam had 100 starts and retired sound and clean legged. But from a business perspective....I'm more inclined to cross her with a warm blood or Irish rather then pure TB. The baby is just likely to be more marketable.

[poltroon]

My answer would be Connemaras, but then I like them small and wiley.

denny, I've always admired the stallions you're standing and I hope they're getting some nice TB mares. I rather regret not breeding mine - she's from Argentine and Irish bloodlines, raced abysmally, was a Grade 2 event horse and did 3rd level dressage, and is still sound... but now that I'm finally in a place where I might have the space, time, and money for a foal - she's 23. Missed that boat.

[denny]

There`s a video of a warmblood jumper named Heartbreaker that I have, winning the Grand Prix of Hamburg, and he`s racing at high speeds, doing tight rollbacks, over huge fences. There are 25 jumping efforts!
Dobel`s Cento was still winning nations cups at 17, before he was retired at Aachen, having been on 2 German Olympic teams, and having won the World Cup, the Grand Prix of Aachen, and the million dollar grand prix at Spruce Meadows.
These are not the big, slow "clunkers" of 20 years ago, but superior athletes who can move and jump.
Maybe that`s another outcross hope?

[TKR]

WOW!! Wouldn't that be a breathe of fresh air for a gasping (breeding) business~ sporthorse competitors seeking out Thoroughbreds bred for sport in a discriminating way by knowledgable breeders (and willing to pay a decent/fair price)! Better get on board, we are a disappearing bunch as so many have jumped on the wb wagon or buy for cheap off the track.

However, with all due respect, I don't think that all the injuries can be attributed to "bred in fragility" as is the excuse we are hearing. The primary problem (which the Thoroughbred racing industry does NOT want to acknowledge or address) is that they are started and run way too young. If you took a "sturdy" wb and did the same thing at that point of development, guess what? -- same result! There are certainly bloodlines or types I avoid as a breeder, but I don't attribute the breakdowns en masse to fragility in general. I do think the commercial breeders overuse certain lines and that many breeders on the lower levels are ignorant or indiscriminate about what they breed; (much like some of the wb breeders -- have any of them ever invested any decent money in a really good Thoroughbred mare?). That's why TB mares usually are criticized at their inspections -- one of mine was given glowing remarks even on her movement in spite of having a fractured ankle from a pasture accident (which is not attributable to her "frailty" or "bad breeding" having siblings that are quite sound). All of my TB mares presented have gone the highest route in the wb books and produced equally as well -- wonder why?

Yes, it's important to remember the not so commercial bloodlines in the breeding shed for the for-sport bred Thoroughbred (as many of those who have been successful have been from uncommercial racing lines). It would also be nice to see interest in the ones bred for sport and someone looking at their pedigrees knowing about lineage other than Bold Ruler, who has been deceased for 50 years! JMHO (and I'm old enough to have one!)
PennyG
www.krugerrandrunfarm.com
There will never be anything that has my heart like a Thoroughbred!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

There`s a video of a warmblood jumper named Heartbreaker that I have, winning the Grand Prix of Hamburg, and he`s racing at high speeds, doing tight rollbacks, over huge fences. There are 25 jumping efforts!
Dobel`s Cento was still winning nations cups at 17, before he was retired at Aachen, having been on 2 German Olympic teams, and having won the World Cup, the Grand Prix of Aachen, and the million dollar grand prix at Spruce Meadows.
These are not the big, slow "clunkers" of 20 years ago, but superior athletes who can move and jump.
Maybe that`s another outcross hope?


Very true...and most of the GP jumpers and warmbloods in general have a lot of TB blood. I have my eye on Jaguar Mail for my mare (depending on what she throws). Besides his type and his jump....his TB breeding should be a good fit with my mare's lines. That would be a keeper baby for me;)

So I think you are right...that will be a good source for the future. But not sure they were always clunkers....there were several full TBs very successful for a long time (Gem Twist comes to mind).


Arab blood may be another source as well.

[pegasusmom]

Denny - Andrew's boy is 7/8 TB (Canadian) with a little Friesian thrown in - great legs and great feet. I'm pretty sold on what his breeder is doing up in Ontario. For sheer toughness and atheletism I might look towards Argentina as well, the polo mares we have here are all tough as nails. Not sure how they would event, but we have one we are going to try. . .

TKR makes some really good points. . . .

[JDufort]

we have a river keen yearling who loves water! Registered TB, yes. Champion sire, yes. But bred for the staying power that River Keen demonstrated (42 starts, placed in G2 stakes at 8). Of course, he's barely making it in the TB market...

We feel the same about Powerscourt (21 starts, won the Arlington Million at 5) - have a nice yearling by him who will probably wind up racing.

And our Leroidesanimaux (13 starts, 2nd Breeders Cup mile at 5) weanling is turning heads.

We do need to seek out the older families, and breed to the rare stallions who retired after more than 8-10 starts.

I do like breeding our old type TB's with a bit of Irish draught to get more bone. Thats the formula that created the great Eagle Lion.

[imapepper]

WOW!! Wouldn't that be a breathe of fresh air for a gasping (breeding) business~ sporthorse competitors seeking out Thoroughbreds bred for sport in a discriminating way by knowledgable breeders (and willing to pay a decent/fair price)! Better get on board, we are a disappearing bunch as so many have jumped on the wb wagon or buy for cheap off the track.

However, with all due respect, I don't think that all the injuries can be attributed to "bred in fragility" as is the excuse we are hearing. The primary problem (which the Thoroughbred racing industry does NOT want to acknowledge or address) is that they are started and run way too young. If you took a "sturdy" wb and did the same thing at that point of development, guess what? -- same result! There are certainly bloodlines or types I avoid as a breeder, but I don't attribute the breakdowns en masse to fragility in general. I do think the commercial breeders overuse certain lines and that many breeders on the lower levels are ignorant or indiscriminate about what they breed; (much like some of the wb breeders -- have any of them ever invested any decent money in a really good Thoroughbred mare?). That's why TB mares usually are criticized at their inspections -- one of mine was given glowing remarks even on her movement in spite of having a fractured ankle from a pasture accident (which is not attributable to her "frailty" or "bad breeding" having siblings that are quite sound). All of my TB mares presented have gone the highest route in the wb books and produced equally as well -- wonder why?

Yes, it's important to remember the not so commercial bloodlines in the breeding shed for the for-sport bred Thoroughbred (as many of those who have been successful have been from uncommercial racing lines). It would also be nice to see interest in the ones bred for sport and someone looking at their pedigrees knowing about lineage other than Bold Ruler, who has been deceased for 50 years! JMHO (and I'm old enough to have one!)
PennyG
www.krugerrandrunfarm.com
There will never be anything that has my heart like a Thoroughbred!

:) Good post Penny :)

[wabadou]

As we all know, those same TB lines that are producing the blinding speed and early athleticism/maturity of the modern TB too often carry with them, a great deal of unsoundness.
Breeders of racing TBs, for the most part, can no longer focus on producing the later maturing, athletic, durable lines that have traditionally come off the track and made such wonderful eventers and jumpers due to economics, pure and simple. Early, blinding speed sells. Racing TB broodmare owners look for stallions from those lines that produce horses that will race early and run fast. Durability is no longer a selling factor in the overall scheme of TB breeding for the track.

I don't know what the answer is. After owning several wonderful OTTBs that were sound enough only for lower level stuff, I did find a wonderful goldmine of a website for information regarding which lines are known for producing what. For anyone seeking to educate themselves

http://www.reines-de-course.com/

Ellen Parker's knowledge of TB bloodlines, to me, is amazing. Click on the Commentaries for even more interesting perspectives. There is ton of information here for anyone wishing to further their knowledge of strengths and weaknesses of particular TB lines, family crosses, etc.

[vineyridge]

I think I have to disagree. There are many TB stallions and mares who throw good bone, and their offspring should still make good event horses.

Personally, I believe it's a matter of overbreeding to certain lines which are commercially (sales) attractive. The breeders don't care if the horses last because they get their bucks out of them at the sales or at an early age. Most of the elite TBs who get their offspring down to us in the second and third generations don't race much past three--if they race that long.

I agree that purpose bred event horses will rarely be full TB, but the chance that the "bad" lines will show up in them eventually is pretty high. Buyers for event horses, full TB or not, need to be aware of the warning signs that come from certain crosses. 1/8th or 1/16th non-TB should not have a huge effect on the final product if the TB lines have the wrong crosses. (I'm thinking Northern Dancer here in particular. Or Mr. P.)

[melodiousaphony]

I was thinking about the modern TBs after discussing this with my non-horsey boyfriend as well as people at the barn.

My question is this: how good is a race horse *really* if they aren't built to last?
I feel in poor taste saying something like that, but honestly, SHOULD Eight Belles have held up without any visible soundness issues, would she have gone to breeding? And if she was, would any problems that may have caused her ankles to break been passed on? (Something about two ankles shattering just sounds like more than a freak accident).

My amateur observation is that they are bred to win at whatever cost, even if it means sacrificing long term soundness. This means breeding for factors such as heart, drive, gameness, etc. that seem to go along with the old school "American dream" mentality (where there is a will there is a way) rather than breeding on cold hard facts: physics. Yes, there are anomalies and conformation is not everything BUT it seems that racing is an industry not based on horses as animals but horses as machines. So why not breed them as such, breeding for efficient energy use, mechanical stability, etc? Perhaps the quick profit angle is where all that is lost. Please keep in mind that I don't know a TON about racing but if you ever wondered what it may look like to the uneducated, that's how it looks to me.

Personally, I liked the horses over in Ireland when I went there a few years ago. Now those were horses that held up, even when we rode XC in the mud.

[Little Valkyrie]

Hungarian Warmbloods! I know many may be thinking "oh, just another 'warmblood' breed" but I have a Hungarian/Lippazenner cross who is just fantastic. The breed as a whole has been described as "Thoroughbreds on Prozac". She is plenty atheletic to be a prelim prospect, but has completely clean x rays and is one tough cookie. My biased opinion is that more of these horses should be out in the eventing world!
About the TB's, I remember as the horses walked to the gate, "gee those horses legs are awefully tiny to be racing on, why do they breed them like that?" What is the true advantage of having a huge horse on teeny feet and legs? is there? if not, why is it happening?

[Foxtrot's]

The racing TB's in Britain race well into their teens. If they have a bit of an injury, they are nursed back to health, trained and raced again, not just discarded. I do think we should be searching out lines that have the sporthorse qualities we need, including soundness longevity. With the new format for eventing, though, the winning horse does not need to be a TB, probably a TB cross, where dressage movement counts. I feel saddened to think that the OTTTB may not be in demand as he once was because of this.
As Denny says, the modern warmblood sporthorse is an athletic machine, far cry from the clunkers of yesteryear, with TB prominent in the pedigrees. With a drop of Irish in the blood and Irish in the flask, we should be good to go, that's my plan anyway.

[TBCollector]

I, for one, hope the TBs continue to find a second home in eventing. Let's face it, there is virtually nothing about the way racehorses are trained that is "good" for them. The reason for all the breakdowns, in addition to the breeding for speed and fashionable pedigree, is the insistence to keep racing them at 2 and 3. Sure, when something horrible like Eight Belles happens, they make noises about pushing the young horses too hard and how racing should take a hard look at itself...and then it's back to business as usual. Eventers HAVE to put a good foundation on their horses, not just throw a saddle on and stick them in a starting gate (with someone who may not even know their name in the irons).

[Kcisawesome]

Irish...all the way, lol. Connemaras, irish sport horses, irish draught. I mean, I love thoroughbreds,and my (good) event horse is a thorughbred with (KNOCK ON WOOD) nice legs, but you have to spend way to much time praying and rubbing lucky charms with many thoroughbreds. Maybe irish/tb crosses...or somthing. But a good event horse needs speed, agility, heart and BONE.

[TKR]

The circumference of the bone is *not* the issue -- the bone should be sufficient to support the mass (as I've said ad nauseum). The *integrity* of the bone as well as the alignment is the issue. Huge bone does not equate to strength or soundness. How dense the bone is throughout and how proportionate it is to the horse's mass (will it sufficiently support it) and how correct it is determines soundness. Huge bone can be more porous than the bone of a Thoroughbred. It also is usually supporting alot of mass, so the concussion of running and jumping is greater (and slower) and the cool-out takes longer in the colder-bred horses. Don't for one minute believe that Thoroughbreds in general are unsound or won't hold up! That is absolutely untrue and unfair! It's also shameful considering most eventers have won on the backs of Thoroughbreds! Before you jump on that bandwagon be sure you truly research and understand the facts entirely. Many of the injuries are related to the age, others can be attributed to bad trainers, surface, gene pool, you name it. Don't trash the breed because they are misused by the racing industry so often. Again, how many of those other breeds that are being touted would hold up under the same circumstances? Hello???
WHERE'S FRED????
PennyG

[TBCollector]

I'm pretty sure three of top five finishers at Rolex are TBs...I remember Courageous Comet racing in NY!

[seeuatx]

I don't think it is so much the breed as certain bloodlines that are "in fashion", and not as strong as others. Just think, if Eight Belles had not been quite so tragically injured, she would have retired to the breeding shed, the same if Barbaro had survived. The same is true for countless other mares and colts.

If I was breeding a TB for anything, I would look for horses that held up and retired sound. I believe Loyal Pal was cited as an example on the racing board. As for buying something, I still believe if a horse retires sound and clean after a year or two on the track (or even longer), they have been time tested and approved. There is nothing I can think of that would even come close to testing their durability.

However this is not simply a TB issue. I can name a handful of WBs of different breeds that repeatedly produce unsound horses. One of these comes from a top barn and is a very well known popular sire.... yet every baby I have met of his did not stay sound past 7.

In general, how is it that horses that can not hold up for their intended purpose are being used to create the next generation?

[Kcisawesome]

But the thing is. thouroughbreds DO often break down where other breeds stand up. Just in my back country western part of the woods, there are all these kids (and adults) galloping crazily all over the woods, roads, etc without much of any concern at all for keeping their horses sound. They don't wrap legs, they don't condition, they don't use boots, they don't bring the farrier out more than ounce a year. These horses are quarter horses.

One of my thoroughbreds goes lame if he walks on gravel (he has shoes....acctualyl he has extra wide aluminum shoes with borium nails!!!!) and he has been off at least 7 times this past year. My neibors tb has feet that fall apart if you look at them. MY friend's(well bred) tb needs to be wraped after every ride to keep him sound....I could go on and on.

connemaras, (older style)Morgans, irish horses, pony crosses, QH/tbs, etc...all hold up well to eventing. I'm not throwing out thoroughbreds here, I think they will always be eventing horses, and I personalyl prefer riding thoroughbreds over most breeds. But if I was going to go out and breed an event horse, I would not be thinking pure thoroughbred. (in fact I've always wanted a Tb/forumla one cross)

[TB or not TB?]

For those who study pedigrees, what TB lines are known for sturdiness and longevity? Which are notably not?

I wonder if the trend of shorter races (overall) and breeding for speed rather than distance has contributed at all.

[wabadou]

For those who study pedigrees, what TB lines are known for sturdiness and longevity? Which are notably not?

I wonder if the trend of shorter races (overall) and breeding for speed rather than distance has contributed at all.

Great site, lots of great information, I found it myself while trying to figure out the very same thing.

http://www.reines-de-course.com/

[Waterwitch]

One thing that I find interesting is that Big Brown, despite his bad feet, has what looks (to me anyway) like a great pedigree (http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+brown) for sport - he is linebred to Damascus (and therefore My Babu), and Round Table, and Northern Dancer of course.

Re: Irish Draughts...sadly we are headed down the same road as the TB's and WB's as IDs are being bred lighter and leggier to emulate the continentals. Without a concerted effort to conserve traditional type in this breed eventers will soon be looking for another source for their bone and soundness :no:

[tbmorgan]

Penny, do you remember me telling you about my mare a while back? She's Exclusive Native on top and old-fashioned English stuff going back to Gainesborough and Hyperion on the bottom...and was never raced as I raised her from a foal. I started her at 3 1/2, and I mean to tell ya, that mare is one tough cookie! She's evented through Prelim, gone on to do dressage through PSG, was "retired" to have a foal at the tender age of 22, and is now 25 going on 5, 100% sound and raring to go! She still gets ridden regularly by me and my students, and not ridden lightly at that! She barely has one little windpuff on her left hind to show for all her years of work. Not bad. If she had raced at 2 and 3, who knows what her fate might have been, but as it is, she was not, and although she worked her a$$ off during her lifetime, she is pretty darn near indestructible. Yeah, funny having "full TB" and "indestructible" in the same sentence...fancy that. I've heard alot of folks say "Eeew, Exclusive Native! They aren't sound!" Well, in alot of cases that may be true, but there are alot of GOOD things in that line as well, and if you're very careful about what mare you send (or in his case, sent) as my friend who bred my mare was, you can sure turn the odds in your favor! I'm proud to say I have an Exclusive Native mare, because she got all the good stuff! It boils down to RESPONSIBLE breeding followed by conscientious and responsible care of the resultant offspring! I get so sick of the "disposable horse" mentality...it's way too much about the money, and people wanting a quick return...not being able to put greed and selfishness aside and just be patient. It's not just the TB industry either...look at the poor little QH babies that are already old pro's with over a year of hard work on them by the time they get to the 3 yr. old futurities! Then, of course, they're toast by the time they are 5 or 6. It's truly scary!

Katja

[tbmorgan]

oops, forgot to mention in my earlier post, but as you can probably figure out from my user name, I do TB/Morgan crosses for sport...talk about having your cake and eating it, too! :D

Katja

[Pferd51]

From this discussion, it looks to me as if the racing industry breeds horses like you would approach the lottery. They are not trying to build a breed, they are trying to hit the jackpot. A proven winner who was lucky enough to win before he broke down (even if he has obvious faults) will not be weeded out, but will be paired with mares which will hopefully compensate for the defects. The incentives are too great. The horse will only have to win and survive until he is 3. That's the goal, and luck is a huge part of it. Even if he has defects, with luck he will get through, and at that point he will become the lottery payoff.

[silver pine]

I agree with waterwitch the current popularity of the ISH has caused a huge breeding void among the IRD's. With all the big Irish breeders breading for sport and not IRD the stock of IRD's is dwindeling. Those IRS's that are being bread are the more "modern" type. This unfortunately means that the bone gets bread out. I would much rather see the ISHx mares being bread to the likes of Formula one (great horse Denny) than to the RID's. I know th Irish Horse Bord is working hard to create incentives to keep the RID intact.

As to the TB's having grown up in Ireland I quite surprised with the American TB when I went on the track to pick up my first US side eventing prospect. I was surprised by the little spindly legs and big bodies. Now those horses can cook right along but there is clearly some key ingredient missing. Some say it's all the limestone in Ireland that makes the RID's, Connemara's and Irish TB's so much bigger in the bone department.

Just some thoughts...

[Bensmom]

Hungarian Warmbloods! I know many may be thinking "oh, just another 'warmblood' breed" but I have a Hungarian/Lippazenner cross who is just fantastic. The breed as a whole has been described as "Thoroughbreds on Prozac". She is plenty atheletic to be a prelim prospect, but has completely clean x rays and is one tough cookie. My biased opinion is that more of these horses should be out in the eventing world!

:yes: Now, everyone that knows me, from here or in real life, knows I have a big heart with lots of room for OTTBs with issues and that I love helping them on to a new career.

But, my two year old filly is Hungarian Felver. Essentially, Hungarian cavalry horse, bred from stock used in the remount program crossed with Shagya. She has a relative that went Advanced with David O'Connor and Jo Struby, as well as others that have evented at lower levels. Her dam's sire is Hungarian and is now gelded and going great guns in endurance. Her Shagya side shows excellence in dressage, endurance and amazing jumping skills.

Very cool horses. Hopefully, if she does well at the Future Event Competition this summer, the breed will begin to get more attention.

I would love to see her sire crossed with some pure TB -- he has produced tremendous babies when crossed with Trakheners, Arabs, and Hungarians.

Really amazing horses, and as they were specifically bred to be cavalry horses, they are ideally suited to be event horses. :D

Libby (now just watch her not do well in the FEH stuff after all. <sigh> )

[bornfreenowexpensive]

But, my two year old filly is Hungarian Felver. Essentially, Hungarian cavalry horse, bred from stock used in the remount program crossed with Shagya.


I know about Shagya...rode a few out in CA and as impressed. 16+hand, good bone, moved like a warmblood with a very good jump. And very easy mind....would be very event horse either pure or as a cross. But never heard of a Hungarian Felver....is there any good information on them that you can refer us too?

[Bobthehorse]

I wish there were more sportbred TBs around. I think with the North American TBs failing, many eventers have been looking overseas for TBs, because the traditional quality is there. The breeding programs here on not just overlooking longevity and soundness, but also intelligence. A program that focuses on one thing only loses everything else.

When I was looking last year, I wanted a sportbred TB, I love TBs. I couldnt afford to import (though one day Id still like to). There are not any around here (ON, Canada). Every TB I saw was off the track, and most I didnt even bother to go see because of their poor looking legs. I ended up with a TB/Dutch, who takes after his OTTB mom. The only thing that makes me people second guess his breed is his his extreme compactness and round butt. The closest thing I could get to a sportbred TB, he has all the qualities I love in a TB. WB/TB crosses seem to be North America's answer to the weakening TB.

[carlisle]

Interesting article at http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=60398
I was surprised to learn that the US is the only country that doesn't ban anabolic steroids in racing horses. See the article for the impact they have on horses. Could this be the culprit?

[Bensmom]

I know about Shagya...rode a few out in CA and as impressed. 16+hand, good bone, moved like a warmblood with a very good jump. And very easy mind....would be very event horse either pure or as a cross. But never heard of a Hungarian Felver....is there any good information on them that you can refer us too?

Sure!

First, a little explanation -- Raz is a Hungarian Felver because she is Hungarian x Shagya cross, Hungarian x Warmblood is called a Hungarian Sportlo, and anything that is Hungarian crossed with anything other than Shagya, TB, Arab or recognized Warmblood registries is a Hungarian Fatja, or part bred.

http://www.hungarianhorses.org/ is the best place to start.

The Hungarian horse is a modern day sport horse with a long and romantic history. The characteristics that contributed to their survival during World War II are evident today as they excel as modern day sport, working, and pleasure horses.
The first significant group of Hungarian horses arrived in the United States at the end of World War II. The US confiscated them from the Germans who had taken them from the Hungarians.

Thanks to the US Army, two Hungarian Countesses, the Cooksley family, and Jim Edwards the breeding records were carefully and strictly continued without a break. The Hungarian Horse Association of America was founded in 1966 to secure continuation of the Hungarian Kisberi Felver breed. (from the homepage)

and

The Hungarian Horse Association, established in 1966, was formed to record horses and their offspring imported after World War II which originally came from Hungary. They included the United states Remount importations sold to private breeders in their dispersion sales, Countess Judith Gyurky's horses that she personally brought out of Hungary and later imported, and some mares imported by Tempel Smith. Baroness Margit Bessenyey and the Cooksley Ranch established their breeding herds from the Remount sales and Jim Edwards purchased Honpolgar 4 from the Remount. These Kisber Felvers were developed over many years using registered Thoroughbred or Arabian (especially Shagya Arabians developed at Babolna in Hungary) outcrosses. From this small but exceptionally pre-potent gene pool of horses came the Hungarian in North America, who is recognized today as a serious competition horse.

General Breed Characteristics:

1. Exceptional intelligence (sometimes in overabundance)
2. Athletic prowess emphasizing speed, agility and balance
3. Unusual heart and courage
4. Loyalty and dedication to a working partnership
5. A strong sense of justice
6. An extremely rugged and durable constitution
7. A heart girth which exceeds the height by about six to nine inches
8. Ribs which are well sprung
9. Well muscled over the loins
10. Legs characterized by large joints
11. Good, flat bone of considerable density
12. Heads and bodies characterized by good definition
13. Wide heads which carry intelligent looking eyes

Hungarian Felver Book: shall consist of horses with a five generation pedigree consisting entirely of Felver, Thoroughbred, Arabian, and/or Shagya blood. The approved outcross use of Thoroughbred, Arabian, Shagya or a combination thereof must be registered with a recognized association registry. DNA testing may be required. Either the sire or the dam must be a registered Hungarian Felver with the Hungarian Horse Association of America. To remain in the Felver Book, breeders must cross back to a registered HHAA Felver every third generation. The Felver book preserves the original purpose of the Association, which is to preserve the bloodlines of the horses according to pre- World War II Kisber State Stud standards. The names of all registered Felvers will be preceded by “Hungarian” or “H” as in Hungarian Big John or H. Big John.

Hungarian Sportlo Book: will consist of HHAA Felvers outcrossed with European Approved Warmbloods approved for breeding by their respective registry. There must be a minimum of 25% Felver blood in the foal. For the purposes of calculating the percentage of Felver blood in a Sportlo pedigree, registered Thoroughbreds may be counted as Felver in such cases. The name of all registered Sportlos will be preceded by “Hungarian Sportlo” or “HS” as in Hungarian Sportlo Pik Brado or HS Pik Brado.

Hungarian Fajta (Part-bred) Book: shall record any offspring of a Felver or Sportlo HHAA registered horse to any other horse that is not eligible to be included in the Felver or Sportlo book. The names of all registered Fajtas will be preceded by “Hungarian Part-Bred” or “HPB” as in Hungarian Part-Bred Flicka or HPB Flicka.
(from the registry page)

There is also now a Hungarian Riding Pony registry as well.

More than you wanted to know, right? :lol: My girl is currently at the trainer's, learning ground manners and all sorts of good things. The trainer is Very Pleased with her and her good mind and general build.

I have NEVER wanted a mare. But, she was so nice I was won over :D

Libby (fwiw, I have been told that we don't use the term "Hungarian Warmblood" but am not sure why, but they prefer Hungarian Felver -- I think Hungarian WB gets used all the time, though)

[Fence2Fence]

A good friend of mine has owned and raced TBs for most of her life (I think she's in her early 50's now...so she's been at it for a while). She quit after her favorite mare fractured her leg while racing.

We were talking about Eight Belles this morning, and she blames the tracks, especially Churchhill Downs, for purposesly making the track hard, so the times are fast.

I really like my two TBs. Clever, agile, and smarter than me. I mean, really, what more can I ask for? :)

[tlw]

Are we talking UL or LL eventing? Personally, I can't think of a better combination for a LL or mid level eventing horse than a Cleveland Bay/TB cross. I'm not an UL competitor so I can't voice an opinion on one for that level (other than the fact that the one I have was competitive at intermediate in England). They have great gates, wonderful minds, strong bones, big sound feet and love to gallop all day. UL speeds may be an issue but prelim and below are not a problem. They are an overlooked breed here in America and I'm sorry for that. Oh, and did I mention that they generally have a very good work ethic and a huge, soft, loving eye?

[Equa]

Do the racing authorities keep any stats on the veterinary treatment horses have received BEFORE suffering career/life ending breakdowns? Hormones, cortisone etc...just add the veterinary concoctions, operations, "fixers" etc into the mix of bloodlines and early starting of TBs, and I think that you'd find it is an important factor.

[Waterwitch]

This unfortunately means that the bone gets bread out. I would much rather see the ISHx mares being bread to the likes of Formula one (great horse Denny) than to the RID's.


Breeding ISH mares to ID stallions doesn't impact the ID breeding herd from a conservation standpoint (except in a positive way as it helps support the purebred stallions). Unfortunately it is undeniably true that the most successful formula for producing ISH eventers has been the "blood on top" or "light on heavy" TB or WB stallion on the ID or traditionally bred ISH mare. Showjumping sees a lot of the inverse (heavier stallion on lighter mare) in Irish breeding and I've always thought that was interesting.

But to get that "formula" (pun intended) to work, great substantial ISH like Formula One who shows his ID heritage from 2 or 3 generations away, you have to have the older heavier boned ID mares (and not to discount the importance - the fantastic national hunt TB sires).

This may be getting OT for this thread, but if the IDs keep going the way they are headed in Ireland particularly, where they are approving purebred stallions that in some cases have no more bone than would be considered acceptable on the average TB or Connemara Pony, and IHB connections have recently suggested LOWERING the generally accepted bone standard for the breed, how will you breed an ISH like Formula One...

I've always found it ironic that eventers and sport horse breeders "get" the importance of maintaining that "well" to return to for bone and substance while so many purebred breeders dismiss these important assets (and the sport horse foundation niche it has provided for so long) in pursuit of modern continental WB look-alikes. The market and breeders go where the money is, but today's ISH will soon be gone if changes to the ID foundation continue. And good luck getting it back.

[TB or not TB?]

Great site, lots of great information, I found it myself while trying to figure out the very same thing.

http://www.reines-de-course.com/

Thank you! I will start researching.

[vineyridge]

Thank you! I will start researching.

I have to warn you that the Reines de Course site is messed up for me. It suddenly doesn't seem to work with IE6, and it has never worked well with Firefox.

Another place to go to read about TBs is http://www.pedigreepost.net

And TB Heritage is solid gold. http://www.tbheritage.com

[Thomas_1]

I've not read such a load of nonsense about a breed for some time..... Well not that long to be honest. But by gosh talk about parochial and uninformed!!!

Eight Belles was bred for classic distance. She was a filly. That isn't what you use for eventing.

You might want to give this a read. Its about the t/b

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2490595&highlight=thoroughly+blood+bred#post2490595

its been developed into several types:

As a flat racehorse and at their best as 3 year olds over 1 - 1 3/4 miles. Known as "classic" distances.

Then there's sprints - 5 - 7 furlongs. Best suited to horses that mature early and have great speed but little stamina

Races that test stamina are for later maturing stayers. Those are more angular and leggy than the compact sprinters with their powerful quarters. Consequently there are 3 categories of flat race t/b: the sprinter, the classic or middle distance horse and the stayer.

Then there's the fourth category - and my personal favourite - those who also jump. They race in steeple chase also known as point to point or national hunt - so called because originally it was cross country races by gentlemen from one village church (steeple or point) to another and the horses were always hunted too to prove their fitness and ability to qualify for their race. Or there's the final category: hurdle racing. (often used as an early proving and training ground for steeple chasers)

These ones must have stamina, toughness and boldness and an ability to jump exceptionally well at speed.

t/b's are purpose bred for each of the disciplines and hence its why they vary so much in type and temperament and to a minor degree in conformation. There are distinct different requirements for each category.

The classic sports horse crossess for eventing though are the likes of t/b with a hint of Connemara or Irish Draft

[poltroon]

From this discussion, it looks to me as if the racing industry breeds horses like you would approach the lottery. They are not trying to build a breed, they are trying to hit the jackpot. A proven winner who was lucky enough to win before he broke down (even if he has obvious faults) will not be weeded out, but will be paired with mares which will hopefully compensate for the defects. The incentives are too great. The horse will only have to win and survive until he is 3. That's the goal, and luck is a huge part of it. Even if he has defects, with luck he will get through, and at that point he will become the lottery payoff.

I think that's right - and worse, a sire only gets about 3 crops to prove himself before he's moved down the line. That's how several of our classic winners have ended up in South America or in Ferdinand's case, on a dinner plate in Japan. :( So no matter how bred or how successful, if there isn't a precocious 2-year-old from the first three crops, the best mares stop coming... which means that the likelihood of winners goes down... which means that he keeps moving down in class. A sire can be washed up in only about 6 years.

And yet it seems to me that in classic racing that there were many sires who didn't really find their nick or produce notable offspring until they'd been at stud maybe 8-10 years.

Someone wrote (on this thread?) about racehorses having such short careers that the public never gets to know them any more, which then lessens their interest in racing. I know that's a factor for me. But the humble sporthorse types (us) will not be able to wag that dog. Racing will have to work that out for themselves.

All we can do is try to collect the proven performance mares that have stayed sound, and encourage people to breed them to TB sires who have stayed sound. That in itself is a pretty big order. In a small way, the sticky thread that was on the Sport Horse Breeding topic might be a good start - encouraging breeding free lease hookups between people with performance mares that might be slowing down and people with breeding capacity/experience/facilities. At the very least, we can do our best to write them down and add them to the various databases so that when we find a good one, even if it doesn't reproduce, we can try to find relatives. I hoped supporting the PHR would do that, but I think my hopes have been dashed there.

[Robby Johnson]

The idea of a s/j wb doesn't strike me as rock-solid sound. I seldom have met any who are. :D

What training changes have happened over the past 30 years? I think repetitive joint pounding is damaging even to the most solid of structures. Are racehorses now running at 3x the rate they used to (like event horses)?

As far as recipes for breeding soundness - I definitely think the ID cross brings much to the table in terms of strength and substance.

[LisaB]

Denny,
You already know the answer to this, that's why you have different breeds of stallions.
The TB industry has 2 main problems.
1. Breeding for 'the now'. On the east coast in particular, I see lots of sprinters. They are used up quickly. Downhill build, bad feet, short shoulder. That doesn't make for a jumper or steeplechaser. I saw Big Brown's feet and thought 'Yup, been there, done that, missed many shows because of it'
2. Starting too young and not building them up correctly. 18 months old is just too young! I'm sorry but there's no way a horse is mature enough to hold weight. And they don't take them out roading or hill work to really build everything up.

[LisaB]

Oh yeah,
I tried the tb industry 4 times and didn't have any luck with them. I love the look of the tb but I'll raise my hand and state that I no longer look at the tb's when I'm searching for a horse.

[denny]

Statistically, Robby, the average no. of lifetime starts per starter has been steadily declining, decade by decade.
This is info that you can get through the Jockey Club, etc.
Plus races are shorter distances. There was a Blood Horse article calling The Belmont (1and1/2 miles) "a splendid anachronism", because it tested for things the average tb no longer needed, stamina and endurance. Sound familiar, event fans?!!
If you look at ,say, Munnings prints, or Paul Brown prints, or at the cover of this week`s Chronicle (Tom Fool, but not the race horse), you see the older fashioned type of tb, a bigger, rangier sort of all day stayer.
But the newer type is apt to appear more like a racing QH, smaller, more downhill, a "bullet", that can run 5/8ths in 57-58 seconds. And tiny, shelly feet, the kind you despair of keeping shoes on.
Sure, there are still old fashioned tbs around. It`s a big breed, But it isn`t the direction the breed is headed.

[copper1]

Could the frailness come from the exercise these horses(race) get? They are on soft going always-a morning workout on the track, maybe a walk and hand graze, perhaps less than an hour at most. I would like to compare the amount of racing injuries and types of injuries between horses that are only worked on the good footing of training centers and tracks and the type of works we used to give steeple chasers when I worked in England(Under the assumption that many race horses are still worked that way)We had to take the horses out and TROT for MILES on the ROAD! The idea was to build up strength in the bones and soft tissues. Got the eventers fit that way as well. How often to eventers have these unexplained fractures as Eight Belles and Barbaro suffered? Fractures from falls don't count since there was a quite noticeable trauma involved.
Research has shown that women who do a lot of impact exercise suffer less osteoporosis fractures then others so is there any relationship to horses?

[denny]

PS, an aside:
I was talking with an endurance friend about the terms "stamina", and "endurance", and suggested they meant about the same thing.
Not at all, she said. "Stamina" is what you build into a horse, core, deep down physical fitness and hardness, so that the horse doesn`t need so much "endurance"
Because "endurance" is the ability/willingness of the horse to endure pain, pressure, fatigue, etc. You need endurance when you are running low on stamina.
So "stamina" is more physical; "endurance" more about heart and character.
If we are creating sports that don`t need stamina and endurance (short format?), we`re diminishing both physical and "spiritual" qualities of the horse.
Interesting.

[Pixie Dust]

Copper that's an interesting point. THe training seems to combine coddling with exteme stress.

I don't know anything about breeding, just that my guy ended up with a ton of knee chips after 4 races. That just seems wrong, but I don't know if it is poor breeding, or poor training, or both.

Interestly enough, after the chips came out, he has been plenty sound for LL eventing and all the trail riding/galloping about I could want to do. I took his shoes off when he was 5 because he kept losing them, and he has great feet. I have not pampered/wrapped/whatever him at all. He's been living out 24/7, little barefoot hippy horse. In any case, I really like a TB for LL eventing. Maybe I'm a bit lazy.

[cuonxc]

we have a river keen yearling who loves water! Registered TB, yes. Champion sire, yes. But bred for the staying power that River Keen demonstrated (42 starts, placed in G2 stakes at 8). Of course, he's barely making it in the TB market...

We feel the same about Powerscourt (21 starts, won the Arlington Million at 5) - have a nice yearling by him who will probably wind up racing.

And our Leroidesanimaux (13 starts, 2nd Breeders Cup mile at 5) weanling is turning heads.

We do need to seek out the older families, and breed to the rare stallions who retired after more than 8-10 starts.

I do like breeding our old type TB's with a bit of Irish draught to get more bone. Thats the formula that created the great Eagle Lion.

WOW! I am so surprised because I love all of those stallions (and no one else seems to.)! Please post pics when you have your foals.

[eqsiu]

Maybe that`s another outcross hope?

YES! I love WB crosses. You get one that's 50-75% TB, but with jumper lines from the warmblood side. It's the same as getting an ISH.

As for TBs, I think foreign bred TBs may be the answer. In other countries they still breed distance runners, and in countries where steeplechasing is popular the horses need to last longer (because they chase geldings and want them to run for years). That, and if you only choose American TBs that have raced many races for years (one of my mom's broodmares ran 70 races over 6 years and was sound an unblemished) you can maintain the long term durability. You just have to look carefully for those.

[VicarageVee]

This is very interesting.

Several years ago (before the end of the long format) I had a TB/WB cross and everyone laughed. He turned out to be an amazing horse (still can't make time XC, but has never dropped a rail when it counts), but now, all I want are full TBs. I love their work ethic, their attitude, and their heart. In my opinion, this is still a TBs sport. (And as an aside, I'm tired of eventers saying that if you want good horses you must go Irish...people just need to get more creative).

Maybe its best to look for OTTBs who have had many starts (Courageous Comet had over 30, I think) and are still sound. You know they get little maitenance at the track, so those few horses who have been sucessful racers and now need new careers are a good bet for eventing.

Also: I think purpose breeding for eventing is fantastic. But I also think, the truth is, many eventers don't have the deep pockets of the H/J world. I, personally, would have a heart attack paying 20-30k for a 4 year old who just has "good breeding". Finding an amazing eventer is rarely about breeding, and all about heart. I'll take all of those OTTB rejects y'all dont want, and I'll be grinning at the finish flags when were always undertime!

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Statistically, Robby, the average no. of lifetime starts per starter has been steadily declining, decade by decade.
This is info that you can get through the Jockey Club, etc.
Plus races are shorter distances. There was a Blood Horse article calling The Belmont (1and1/2 miles) "a splendid anachronism", because it tested for things the average tb no longer needed, stamina and endurance. Sound familiar, event fans?!!
If you look at ,say, Munnings prints, or Paul Brown prints, or at the cover of this week`s Chronicle (Tom Fool, but not the race horse), you see the older fashioned type of tb, a bigger, rangier sort of all day stayer.
But the newer type is apt to appear more like a racing QH, smaller, more downhill, a "bullet", that can run 5/8ths in 57-58 seconds. And tiny, shelly feet, the kind you despair of keeping shoes on.
Sure, there are still old fashioned tbs around. It`s a big breed, But it isn`t the direction the breed is headed.

Did you guys not even read Thomas' post?
There is a whole industry devoted to breeding TBs for not only stamina, but for jumping. Horses that go 2-4½miles and jump (sounds suspicioulsy like the XC phase of eventing). It's called National Hunt racing and 1000's of horses are bred for that specific purpose ever year. Over half the TB foal crop in Ireland is jump-bred, it's similar in France, a little less so in GB. They are often a bigger more substantial horse. That is the kind of horse you want for eventing.

[Thomas_1]

Did you guys not even read Thomas' post?
There is a whole industry devoted to breeding TBs for not only stamina, but for jumping. Horses that go 2-4½miles and jump (sounds suspicioulsy like the XC phase of eventing). It's called National Hunt racing and 1000's of horses are bred for that specific purpose ever year. Over half the TB foal crop in Ireland is jump-bred, it's similar in France, a little less so in GB. They are often a bigger more substantial horse. That is the kind of horse you want for eventing.

Seemingly not!!!

Either that or it didn't strike a chord with the preconceived parochial nonsense being posted here!

[sm]

If we are creating sports that don`t need stamina and endurance (short format?), we`re diminishing both physical and "spiritual" qualities of the horse.
Interesting.

That is what really suprised me about the WBs, there is no test now for organic soundness (elimination of steeplechase phase) that racing tests. You couldn't give me a WB.

Why overlook the selle francais: bred to race as AQPSA (autres que pur sang association, meaning "other than Thoroughbred") and also bred dressage and eventing.

[sm]

Thomas1, I did read your post. And the link.

Cover your ears you US-bred OTTBs: Poggio II, The Foreman, and Truluck. I think the Foreman is also an ex-steeplechaser... You want jump? Poggio was only one of two horses on the planet to go clear in SJ 2004 Athens Olympics.

It's not that TBs are bad, the problem is finding one when you're looking to buy. Now in Europe you can look at 100 WBs in any one weekend.

[JER]

Right now, the best steeplechaser in the UK and Ireland is a horse named Denman. He's 17+hh, sturdily built, 8 years old, big feet, gallops 3 1/2 miles over 22 fences like it's nothing. He's by the very good flat racer Presenting (http://www.rathbarrystud.com/pres_about.htm).

And of course, Denman is all TB. He was bred to do what he's doing.

In the UK and Ireland, National Hunt racing ensures a second tier of TB stallions that produce TBs to run and jump over long distances. The stallions are cheaper to breed to than flat racing stallions (although most top NH stallions were flat racers, not jumpers) and, as distances aren't so great in the UK or Ireland, you never have to travel that far to breed your mare to them. We just don't have this here.

Some of the NH stallions in the UK/Ireland are US-bred ex-flat racers who have no market in the US.

There is no reason to breed for soundness in the US racing market. Usually, the goal of breeding is not to produce a good race horse, it's to get a yearling that will sell well at the sales. This is a very different goal but it's how you make money in the US market.

However, there are people out there breeding for sound race horses. Dr. William A. Reed, a Kansas City heart surgeon, breeds and races some fabulous horses, most notably Perfect Drift, the Dynaformer son who ran in 5 consecutive BC Classics, won on turf and dirt and all kinds of distances. Dr. Reed's geldings race as long as they are healthy, sometimes to age 12. And yes, Dr. Reed races purpose-bred geldings. If he wants another one like Perfect Drift, he can breed full siblings from his dam.

You can also find tough racehorses at regional tracks. About ten years ago, I got a terrific mare from Michigan. She comes from a family of horses that race on weekends from April to October than have the winters off. She only ran 30+ times but her sister ran 70+ times and her half-brother ran over 100 races.

But Thomas is right (his post he links to is very good). Eight Belles was doing what she was bred for. She was not bred to go 4 miles over Aintree fences.

What could be done in the US? Stop breeding bleeders. Stop over-medicating race horses so soundness is important -- no EPO, no steroids, etc. Toughen the standards for ruling off horses for unsoundness.

But really, none of these things matter so much as changing what horses are bred for. If you're looking to breed precocious, speedy two year-olds or sales-quality yearlings, you're only going to get tough, sound, durable athletes by accident.

[VicarageVee]

Did you guys not even read Thomas' post?
There is a whole industry devoted to breeding TBs for not only stamina, but for jumping. Horses that go 2-4½miles and jump (sounds suspicioulsy like the XC phase of eventing). It's called National Hunt racing and 1000's of horses are bred for that specific purpose ever year. Over half the TB foal crop in Ireland is jump-bred, it's similar in France, a little less so in GB. They are often a bigger more substantial horse. That is the kind of horse you want for eventing.

This is great, and we have point-to-pointers, etc in the US, too, but the logistics of finding a sound one are exceptionally complicated, and often require traveling long distances for very little return. Also, last time I checked, the pound was almost double the dollar and shipping usually runs around 10k. What we're not saying here is one of the major appeals of the OTTB to the eventer is the PRICE. And, there is nothing wrong with that. very few eventers can afford to go to Ireland and find a horse that has been purpose bred for stamina and jumping...

[VicarageVee]

Thomas1, I did read your post. And the link. Cover your ears you US-bred OTTBs: Poggio II, The Foreman, and Truluck. I think the Foreman is also an ex-steeplechaser, one of them I mentioned was.

I see you and raise you Courageous Comet, Leyland, and Coal Creek

We could go all day;)

[SueL]

There`s a video of a warmblood jumper named Heartbreaker that I have, winning the Grand Prix of Hamburg, and he`s racing at high speeds, doing tight rollbacks, over huge fences. There are 25 jumping efforts!
Dobel`s Cento was still winning nations cups at 17, before he was retired at Aachen, having been on 2 German Olympic teams, and having won the World Cup, the Grand Prix of Aachen, and the million dollar grand prix at Spruce Meadows.
These are not the big, slow "clunkers" of 20 years ago, but superior athletes who can move and jump.
Maybe that`s another outcross hope?

Modern showjumpers are superb athletes and brilliant jumpers, but they are bred to be so ultra-careful that I have to wonder how much you want to get into event horses. But certainly a viable outcross. One other caveat - they are fast, but generally over a relatively short distance.

The Irish are doing interesting things. One of them bringing over stallions from the continent to stand to ISH mares. My sister and I have an F2 from this program - by Touchdown out of a Cruising mare. He might have made a great event horse (he's a terrific galloper courtesy of his Irish roots, MHO) but has tremendous scope and is in the jumper ring right now.

I think there are still good Tbs of the old-fashioned type in this country but they are increasingly rare. If I was breeding event horses, I would seek out those horses of full or close to full Tb blood, cross to a continental horse (I might go Selle Francais, just personal bias there) and then in F2 cross back to RID. I would eschew the noted unsound Tb lines, no matter the phenotype of the horse.

This is a long-term program. Short-term, I'd think crosses of old-fashioned Tb to RID or modern Europeon warmblood might be useful.

Sue

[eqsiu]

Why overlook the selle francais: bred to race as AQPSA (autres que pur sang association, meaning "other than Thoroughbred") and also bred dressage and eventing.

You realize that Selle Francais (what is the plural?) are warmbloods, right? Their sport use is mainly show jumping. They are good choices for eventing because like trakehners, they have a high percentage of TB blood.

FRH Serve Well is a Hanoverian, and she was 2nd at Badminton last year. Marius is a Holsteiner and was 6th at Badminton. Feine Dame (Holsteiner) won the bronze medal in Barcelona. Warmbloods won't dominate eventing, but that doesn't mean they're not great eventers.

[sm]

I think there are still good Tbs of the old-fashioned type in this country but they are increasingly rare. If I was breeding event horses, I would seek out those horses of full or close to full Tb blood, cross to a continental horse (I might go Selle Francais, just personal bias there) and then in F2 cross back to RID. I would eschew the noted unsound Tb lines, no matter the phenotype of the horse.

This is a long-term program.


Yes it is, and for a breeder the WBs pay better than breeding full TB sporthorses. In the fall, www.hellohorse.com (http://www.hellohorse.com) will have a page of US-bred TB stallions, maybe we can get the good ones all in one spot. They are out there.

[lesson junkie]

I do not event, but I do fox hunt until the hounds come in. I had a Loyal Pal mare out of a Secretariat-bred mare who hunted for hours over all kinds of ground with never a deep breath drawn or a warm leg to be had. She was tough mentally and physically, fearless and smart with the ground manners of Lizzie Borden. That I blame on the Bold Ruler in her mother! I like her much better now that she is in a horse trial home-I can take the credit and not dodge the hind feet!

[SueL]

The idea of a s/j wb doesn't strike me as rock-solid sound. I seldom have met any who are. :D</quote>

My sister are two for two in that department. (Cruiser is ISH, but with his sire being Touchdown, his Irish is low compared to his Selle Francais heritage) Choccie is Swedish Warmblood, Holsteiner. He could and would eat rocks. LOL. And according to our trainer, "He has to die of something. But he'll die sound." These are two tough, tough, sound horses.

[quote]What training changes have happened over the past 30 years? I think repetitive joint pounding is damaging even to the most solid of structures. Are racehorses now running at 3x the rate they used to (like event horses)?

As far as recipes for breeding soundness - I definitely think the ID cross brings much to the table in terms of strength and substance.

Agree here. But am also a fan of the Selle Francais. A little touch of Arab never hurt in terms of tough feet and legs, IMO.

Sue

[denny]

Most Americans don`t put soundness high on their priority lists in considering stallions, I don`t think.
Read the posts on the breeding forum, and see how often soundness is mentioned, compared, say, to color, or jumping ability, or flashy movement.
Soundness isn`t glamorous.

[eqsiu]

Soundness isn't glamorous. That's why I looked for old stallions that showed for years and were successful. Not only can you see that the stallion stayed sound enough to compete actively for years, but his oldest foals should already be at the top of their game. If a 17 year old stallion doesn't have offspring competing at the top (not necessarily internationally, but just at the top levels) then he is not worth your stud fee.

I dream of breeding my mare to For Pleasure (I like hanoverians). He show jumped internationally until he was 20, won olympic gold, has sired a buttload of top jumpers and licensed stallions, and has a decent % of blood in him. But by the time I can afford it he'll be dead. Oh well. THough I don't think he's a choice for an advanced eventer. If I wanted an upper level horse I'd cross her back to a TB for a 3/4 foal. I only need to go training so really any breed will do.

[SueL]

Most Americans don`t put soundness high on their priority lists in considering stallions, I don`t think.
Read the posts on the breeding forum, and see how often soundness is mentioned, compared, say, to color, or jumping ability, or flashy movement.
Soundness isn`t glamorous.

OTOH, attempting to keep an unsound horse serviceably sound isn't exactly glamorous either. It is heartbreaking.

Soundness and longevity is very important to me. We no longer breed, but when evaluating a young prospect those are two things we take very seriously.

Ability is, of course, extremely important, but it does you no good if it is on stall-rest most of the time or unable to go.

As for color, well, let us just say that my color of choice is a plain bay. IOW, I don't care.

Sue

[merrygoround]

We don't run eventers as 2 and 3 yo. That mare had JUST passed her 3rd birthday. Nor do we run them in two Three Days two weeks apart.

Quarter cracks, have in my estimation been a result of bad balancing. Even if Big Brown is a top horse, it doesn't mean he's always had the best farrier.

[petit fromage]

Wasn't the EQUUS article about preventing TB breakdowns interesting? A fascinating concept that something simple like a heart monitor could tell trainers when a horse is "at risk" for injury. They also discussed the difference between bone-building stress and bone breakdown caused by fatigue.
(Also, the Wall Street Journal had an article about TB breeding vs soundness.)

[LisaB]

Oh please Merrygoround. Have you ever had a tb??? Those thin little shelly feet are impossible to keep whole.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

Oh please Merrygoround. Have you ever had a tb??? Those thin little shelly feet are impossible to keep whole.

Actually a lot of people I know keep their TB's barefoot or just fronts and have healthy feet. My guy has very good feet that have never cracked (knock on wood) and go well with just some fronts for a little traction when jumping. I know that generally TB's are known to not have good feet but that doesn't go for all of them.

[sm]

Oh please Merrygoround. Have you ever had a tb??? Those thin little shelly feet are impossible to keep whole.

Mine is barefoot, no hoof supplements and no dressing. Retired from GP dressage. US-bred OTTB.

NOTE: he is the only upper level dressage horse I know (the others I know are WBs) that never needed hock injections. This was after spending his early days galloping around Belmont. 100% sound, hooves are fine.

[Thomas_1]

Oh please Merrygoround. Have you ever had a tb??? Those thin little shelly feet are impossible to keep whole.

Then your experience is clearly with crappy poorly bred t/b's

There's a mass of t/b's that are well bred for stamina and type. They're athletic and they're stayers and bold and brave and will whoop the ass off any warmblood for speed.

Those who think ALL t/b's have crappy feet and are sold for a pittance REALLY do need to get out and see the higher end of the market.

Regrettably the market is large and that means there's a lot to wade through and if you don't know about the breed you can end up in the situation where you don't know what you don't know and start to think that the crap is the norm.

Its not though.

Personally speaking, if for whatever reason I was stuck with absolutely only having to chose one breed, then it would without hesitation be a thoroughbred.

[Janet]

SOME TBs have bad feet. But many have perfectly good feet. The two I have had (both "race-bred" but unraced) had /have perfectly decent feet.

[merrygoround]

Oh please Merrygoround. Have you ever had a tb??? Those thin little shelly feet are impossible to keep whole.

Silly kid, what else did we have to deal with back when I was starting out. A $500 OTTB was big money.:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh yeah, I forgot the really expensive one , over 1K, with poorly trimmed feet and a fantastic buck. Spent 20+ years of their life barefoot, doing dressage, and hacking out over hill and dale on odd days.:D

[quietann]

Thomas_1, are you taking into account that American TBs are quite different from European TBs??? The race industry is different here, so the goals for the "product" are, too. As others have already said on this thread, in the US, a lot of racing people want fast-growing, big sprinters that can race early, and do well enough at 2 and 3 years that they have value as breeding horses afterwards. Long-term soundness is not so much valued.

I have no doubt that if any of us Americans traveled to Europe, we'd find a different sort of TB. Which is not to say that they are not bred here, but they are hard to find.

[horsetales]

This is something I personally considered in my choice of a TB mare for our Irish sport horse breeding, as I had gone through problems with legs and feet in other OTTBs I owned. I found a mare (http://www.pedigreequery.com/saturday+nite+lady) who had the soundness I wanted. I liked her having clean legs after yrs of racing and winning ~70K. Shes never needed shoes, though she has not been ridden hard. Now I debate keeping her Secretariat line daughter to replace her. I hope more TB breeders look to breed more soundness with their quest for speed.

[imapepper]

Thomas_1, are you taking into account that American TBs are quite different from European TBs??? The race industry is different here, so the goals for the "product" are, too. As others have already said on this thread, in the US, a lot of racing people want fast-growing, big sprinters that can race early, and do well enough at 2 and 3 years that they have value as breeding horses afterwards. Long-term soundness is not so much valued.

I have no doubt that if any of us Americans traveled to Europe, we'd find a different sort of TB. Which is not to say that they are not bred here, but they are hard to find.

They aren't as hard to find as you think. I have 2 TBs that I am riding now (both dramatically different types) that have good feet. Now neither of these two have particularly fashionable pedigrees and neither made the track.

[Merle]

2 years ago I took part of my savings and went down to Suffolk in MA. I looked at lots of horses and took a chance on one little gelding who had raced 10 times. Well, 2 years later he has been COMPLETELY sound and is eventing barefoot. He can walk comfortably on gravel or even driveways with crushed stone (not that I like doing that but we can). No shelly feet here. He's a tough little bugger. :) And, up here in Maine people don't normally get OTTBs so we've started to change their minds about their soundness!

So, they can be found. Oh boy though, if I could have *afforded* an ISH or highly TB warmblood then I would have sure gone that way. But I think we eventers depend heavily on the racing rejects so if we are just careful in what we pick then hopefully it will work out for us. He has Mr. Prospector and Seattle Slew in his bloodlines, too, and someone earlier said that Mr. P wasn't great for durability.

After saying all that, there is a chestnut Oldenburg mare around here that is very nice. Dam was a TB and this girl is very athletic. I think the WB-TB cross is a good one, as well as the (obviously proven!) ISH. But don't rule out our TBs! I think that yes, there are a LOT that do get broken down but there are some that keep going and going and going! They will always be there, you might just need to look a little hard.er

[Lincoln]

Holsteiners crossed on tbs - tough as nails and great jumpers. the top prelim horse in the country is a Holst/tb x named James - scopey little package. I had a spectacular Danish registered Holsteiner mare that was a great all round athlete. Brave as all get out and could do whatever sport you'd ask of her. And guts to burn. For ULE I suspect you'd need the TB for the sustained speed, but not for heart or agility. What I like about the Holsteiners I've known is that they have not been ditsy - perhaps a little too brave, and super scopy.

European thoroughbreds - to add some eye candy - if you want to drool, take a look at some of the tb stallions standing in Germany under Hanoverian and other registrations - them German's aren't stupid when it comes to breeding - http://www.horse-gate.com/hengstvideos/index_tab_e.html

and then go to the stallion videos- the xx's are thoroughbreds. And you can buy frozen semen if you can take the exchange rate shock. The Laurie's Crusader XX's in particular are lovely movers and nice characters.

Another vote in the fantasy horse category for For Pleasure - durable, gutsy and the most beautiful jumper - plus he loved his job:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1kIFWNRcjE&NR=1

ISH's - another vote.

But then, give me a big old lanky track nag like Denny was describing - long of leg (and sometimes back...) and big of heart - can't be beat. That's who Lincoln (my namesake) is.

[TKR]

You can find the same bloodlines on both sides of the pond and all over the world. The commercially (racebred) Thoroughbred here has gotten heavily infused with Mr. P crossed with ND. I don't really have a problem with Northern Dancer as a rule. You are going to see some good and bad as he was bred so much, but he was a tough cookie and so were many of his babies - many of them are the ones racing/breeding in Europe. Alot of those criticizing the Thoroughbred are basing their information on just a few individuals, probably bought very cheap off the track. There are treasures to be found for cheap, but it helps to be knowledgable in all facets. How many of you who are critical have paid decent money for a Thoroughbred or have had any experience with a Thoroughbred bred for the sport disciplines? How many know much about Thoroughbred bloodlines or pedigrees other than Bold Ruler? If you browse through a Thoroughbred Stallion Register you can find alot of stallions that would be wonderful sporthorse sires and have the pedigree to match on this side of the pond. My senior stallion has zero Mr. P, ND or Bold Ruler bloodlines. My foundation broodmare is a who's who of sporthorse bloodlines -- very foundation/old lines. Their descendents are carrying on those wonderful lines. Don't discount the value of the pure Thoroughbred in sport -- they are the original sporthorse and the standard of excellence in sport.
PennyG

[denny]

Nothing wrong with good old hybrid vigor! My old veteran, Victor Dakin, evented for TWENTY seasons, about 8 of which were at advanced. Won a Team gold at Burghley, the US Nat`l Ch 3-day, etc. A good horse.
He was 1/2 tb, 1/4 Irish draught, 1/8 Morgan, 1/8 Arab.

[Hey Mickey]

I didn't read all of the posts...

But I do wonder how well some of the racing TB's are conditioned... I know several little... unknowledgable people around here that do ZERO conditioning work, and then you hear about these guys who have 200 horses in training.. how much conditioning is going on there?
and that combined with horses that may be immutare and asked to run at high speeds.... And then you have the shoeing trend of long toes and no heel....

Also, my TB (who is now 10) I would say he is the "modern type" he has pretty good breeding, but he lightly built and all of that. He came to me (in november of his 5 year old year) with crappy feet. a rotated spine (yes... his spine had rotated.. that took some chiropratic work)
and all kinds of other stuff.
His feet have actually gotten better with the right supplements (biotin and a digestive aid).
He came as a horse that wasn't made to last, but as of now, he'll be going for another 10 years, easily. **knock on wood**


Well to sum it up:
I really think a lot just has to do with how theb TB's trained, how they're feet are delt with, and how they are conditioned.

[Foxtrot's]

This sporthorse thoroughbred breeding bit - it is all a bit hap hazzard with this or that bloodlines. The Europeans are so much more specialized in their programs, with statistics to back them up.
That is what I hoped the PHR would do, sort out the sound, good minded athletic sporthorses from the speedfreak. Hasn't happened so far.

Regarding soundness issues, a lot has to do with environment. Irish horses have for generations had Irelands green and pleasant chalky lands. New Zealand horses have the volcanic hills to grow strong on.
A racehorse often spends 23 hours a day standing in a stall on the backstretch. Brtain's National Hunt horses that do point to points, hunt and race. France breeds good jumping TB's. We don't need the ones bred to do the Kentucky Derby.

In Britain, the failed flat horses are often tried out as hurdlers. The good ones go on to be steeplechases. But a steeplechaser differs from the average hurdler in that the hurdler more or less flattens out and gallops through the hurdles in stride to his gallop. A steeplechaser has to rock off his hocks (bingo - eventer!) They have longevity too. Aintree horses are often l4 or l5 years old.

Just go see the TB's at Badminton or Burleigh - quite a different animal than is seen here. Gorgeous. I looked high and low for one and finally got the type of horse I wanted by buying a horse whose mother was a timber racer. Big horse with huge feet and bone.

Another point - not all tb feet can be blamed on poor trimming. Some just have horrible feet that are a nightmare to maintain.

TKR - some of us have a great interest in the tb, thought your post was a bit condescending. Sorry.

Anyway - with the new format, the need for those wonderful old style tb's is moot, I hate to say.

I have a 3/4TB ISH hopefully to be safely born in August, so that is where I hope to find the legs, feet, mind, gallop and heart.

[eqsiu]

The Laurie's Crusader XX's in particular are lovely movers and nice characters.



They are also poorer than average jumpers. His Verband breeding value for jumping is 69.

Lemon xx has sired 2 CCI**** horses however, and Amerigo Vespucci xx sired Frank Ostholt's Air Jordan.

[VicarageVee]

re: this debate and "modern TB frailty"

I just wanted to point out that out of the original 56 entries at Rolex 38 were FULL TBs and another 3 were TB "crosses" to US bred TBs (e.g. High Patriot, Han x TB, Critical Decsion, etc)

Out of those 38 full TBs 22 were US Bred, and a high majority of younger rider's mounts were US bred TBs (esker riada and cahir are the exceptions here).

I'm just putting it out there.

[cbarton]

I really enjoyed listening to Frank Deford's discussion about Eight Belles and racing in America this morning and thought you all would too...........Here's the link. You can listen to it or read it.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90231429

[hey101]

re: this debate and "modern TB frailty"

I just wanted to point out that out of the original 56 entries at Rolex 38 were FULL TBs and another 3 were TB "crosses" to US bred TBs (e.g. High Patriot, Han x TB, Critical Decsion, etc)

Out of those 38 full TBs 22 were US Bred, and a high majority of younger rider's mounts were US bred TBs (esker riada and cahir are the exceptions here).

I'm just putting it out there.

VV- where did you get this info? I'd love to see the breeding of the horses that ran Rolex this year.

[Foxtrot's]

Isn't the point here to discuss the way breeding is heading - away from the tough as nails Tb. That the right tb sporthorse has to be hunted down and it is hit and miss if you luck out and find the 'Courageous Comets' out there. When my mare was inspected for ISR/Old NA she was top of her inspection, but slightly fine compared to some of the mares in the top breeding barns in Ky. He said that they are largely unavailable to sporthorse breeders
because of their value. He was looking for substance because the breeders need to grow, train and sell the young horses fast. Sounds familiar - which is the route the tbs went, bred to be precocious.

We need to pursue the bloodlines that will be heritable for soundness and develop the tbs that have the best sporthorse characteristics. They are out there - just need finding, and from where I am, we have to look hard. However, Livingstone was bred right here and he's made of the right stuff.

[TKR]

Foxtrot-- sorry if I sounded condescending to you -- if you have an interest and knowledge of Thoroughbreds, it wasn't meant for you anyway. Just chalk it up to frustration with the sporthorse industry overall and the often misinformation or criticism of Thoroughbreds that I've heard so much. I don't think 'substance' is a trait limited in any way to the highest priced Thoroughbred mares. It's just learning what bloodlines work best for sport and which stallions consistently produce soundness and quality.

PennyG

[SEPowell]

I don't view the modern tb as frail, my god, look at what they do; they race, event, steeplechase, hunt for hours at a time, pony club, etc. and the majority of them stay sound.

[VicarageVee]

VV- where did you get this info? I'd love to see the breeding of the horses that ran Rolex this year.

Why, the Chronicle of the Horse, of course!
April 18th, Rolex issue, gives the breeding of each horse.

Or, check out the horse show issue from January...its all the top horses in the sport (have won an I/A HT)...lots more TBs there!


If you use the BB, go subscribe!!!! You'll never regret it!

[Foxtrot's]

Actually, Penny, we're in agreement in fact. I'm a staunch tb supporter and do get frustrated with the stereotyping. The tb should be the soundest and best horse in the world and still is, but we have to weed out the ones that do not serve us as sporthorses. Breed the type we need with their movement, minds, jump, soundness, etc. However having had my share of the 'typical tb feet', I am cautious, and look hard at wall thickness, heel shape, angles, sole, etc.

[gabriellemg]

Cleveland Bay is my vote to improve TB eventers. They were used to improve many Continental European breeds in the last century. They have excellent feet, lots of bone, prepotent, and brave. A 1/2 bred for lower level eventing and a 1/4 bred for upper level eventing would eliminate many soundness issues.
That is one reason why CBs are an endangered breed because of the strict stud book rules and many purebred mares were (and still are) crossed to TBs for performance horses.
Lainey's second ride at Rolex, Mazetto, is a 1/4 bred Cleveland Bay.
Crowne Alliance ridden by a YR at Badminton who was the Individual Bronze Medalist at the European YR Eventing Championships is a 1/4 CB, 1/2 TB, 1/4 ID.

I have three purebreds and a 1/2 bred, and the pures will never go upper level, but they are brave xc, sound, and sensible. They are fabulous fox hunters, and fox hunters were some of the founders of the USCTA now USEA.

Breed a CB stallion to nice quality TB mares, and you will have an excellent sport horse prospect.

GMG
Texas USA

[Foxtrot's]

You bet - excellent cross along with the Irish which has benefitted from good marketing. Juliette Graham evented a Cleveland Bay cross named .... (some really old coth membe will remember).

Regarding Jaguar Mail : he has two of the best American tb's for sport in his pedigree - Turn-to and Buckpasser.

Cavalier Royale (Cor de la Bruyere), mentioned in this thread - why do you think the Irish picked him to breed with their Irish stock. Never could figure that strategy, picking a European horse, but not for me to give an opinion there.

I'm looking forward to a Mountain Pearl (ID) baby in August. He has now gone back to Ireland to spread his valuable genes around.

[hunter-eventer-hunter]

I think that tht TB breed has changed in the 20 years that I have been riding them. But looking at the age of the average broodmare and stallion, ave.
life expectancy, etc. this has to be a trend that started in the post war area. Admitedly, selective breeding can change a 'breed' quickly as evidenced by the post-war II WB breed's major changes, but this started 30-40 years ago. And the changes to the US TB started long before I think most people think it did.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/bits+n+pieces

This is my been there done that old mare. Look at this breeding, she is 16.1 and takes a 56 inch girth when three day fit. She has good clean legs at 20, had a foal a 6, evented, did dressage, hunters, jumpers, and pole bending (long story). You would never look at this mare and guess she is a TB until you saw her run. And you would never think she was a day over 10. She was bred for speed, but was too darn wide to fit in a gate, let alone run. Solild as the day is long.

But that being said, CRAP feet!!!!

[vineyridge]

I don't think the breed as a whole has changed. The good lines are still there. A tremendous amount is going to depend on what kind of mare is put to what kind of stallion.

In my case, I have a just turned 3 yo TB gelding with wonderful bone.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/slews+dancin+man

Here is what he looked like on his 2nd birthday last year.

I don't think he's going to finish much over 15 hands, but his bone must come from his dam side, since his not sister by the same sire has toothpick legs at the same age.

[JULSCARVER]

It is amazing if you compare a picture of Man O' War or other earlier champions how substantial they look compared to the toothpick legs of today.

[arnika]

European thoroughbreds - to add some eye candy - if you want to drool, take a look at some of the tb stallions standing in Germany under Hanoverian and other registrations - them German's aren't stupid when it comes to breeding - http://www.horse-gate.com/hengstvideos/index_tab_e.html

and then go to the stallion videos- the xx's are thoroughbreds. And you can buy frozen semen if you can take the exchange rate shock. The Laurie's Crusader XX's in particular are lovely movers and nice characters.

Thank you, eqsiu. I was just going to post about Laurie's Crusader. Lovely mover, throws great offspring but well known in Hanoverian circles as a bloodline that not only doesn't throw jumpers, he would consistantly take away jumping ability when crossed with a well-jumping mare. A "jump killer" in other words. Fabulous for dressage though!

I have owned and ridden many Tbs for many years. All OTTBs, since I wasn't too far from Ak Sar Ben when I was younger. My second favorite mare overall and my first as a riding/broodmare is my 26 yo Little Grata(Can). Her pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/little+grata
She goes back to Herbager, Victoriana, Windfields x2, Turn-to, Nasrullah, Tom Fool, Hyperion x2, and several sons of Man O' War all in the first 4-5 generations. Raced 106 times and is still as sound as a pound (can't say dollar any more ;)). Goes barefoot, is only 16 hands but has stamina, scope and courage to spare. Does eventing, fox hunting, straight dressage and trail riding. Throws fabulous TBs and WBx babies with good minds and soundness. I'd own a dozen more of her if I could. Would love to clone her!

Down here in Ocala you can still find many excellent quality TBs at the OBS sales, not as cheap as they used to be but lovely, if you're willing to look.

[vineyridge]

I always like to see Bunty Lawless in a pedigree because it's another non-Eclipse line back to Hastings/Matchem.

I don't think you can get too much Matchem or Herod in a TB for sport.

[CBudFrggy]

Personally speaking, if for whatever reason I was stuck with absolutely only having to chose one breed, then it would without hesitation be a thoroughbred.

May I put this in my sig line? Me too!

Mine is grade TB--unknown origins rescued from Loxahatchee, FL, left out for a year, no grain. But, quality feet and legs all the way down. Sure we have training issues, but even my cowboy trainer acknowledged the quality of his legs and feet. He said, and I quote, "You got a good one." Another time he said, "He sure has good feet." :D

Some days, I think that's the highest praise I've ever heard about my horse.

ETA: When I was watching the parade to the post, I was amazed at the high number of entrants with short, steep croups. I thought I was watching a bunch of sprinters head for the starting gate. I liked Belle's hip so much I called my cousin and told her she was my pick for the race (family tradition). Her hip had angle for thrust, but wasn't so short and steep to shorten her stride. Since the race was 1-1/4, I knew she could go the distance. The television network puts so many graphics over the horses, you really can't see much beneath their barrels to analyze them.

[Kementari]

I would like to see breakdown stats of TBs vs other racing breeds - not because I think we're going to see an upsurge in OT Arab eventers ;), but because it would be interesting to see if the problem is with the BREED or with modern conditioning/training/racing methods. Though the different breeds race different distances, I think it would tell us something if, say, QHs breakdown more often and Arabs less often (which, if we think sprint breeding is the problem, should be true), vs if they all have roughly the same rates - or some other scenario.

I don't know nearly enough about racing to find those stats, though...

ETA: Count me in the Crappy-TB-Feet-Until-I-Found-A-Great-Farrier Club! I mean, he still doesn't have GREAT feet - more prone to chipping than "average" and a long toe/low/contracted heel issue that even the best farrier can't make "normal" - but he is barefoot and sound. :yes:

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Cavalier Royale (Cor de la Bruyere), mentioned in this thread - why do you think the Irish picked him to breed with their Irish stock. Never could figure that strategy, picking a European horse, but not for me to give an opinion there.


Cavalier Royale was used primarily to breed Showjumpers, that's why he was brought to Ireland. He was an Intl level showjumper himself (competed for Switzerland I believe). His prowess as an Eventing sire was more of a happy byproduct.
Not sure why you have a problem with Irish breeders using contintenal stock. If the best jumpers are SF, Holst etc, then why not get in on some of that action? That's what breeding is all about, breed the best to the best etc. The world champion showjumper at the Jerez WEG in '02, Liscalgot, was also a product of such breeding, SF on top of ISH.
The same strategy of using the best has been used for centuries. American TB breeders went to Europe from the '20's through the 50's routinely buying up the best European racehorses and bringing them to Kentucky. That is the foundation of the famed American TB. The Europeans have been returning the favour over the last 40 odd years, with wholesale introduction of Northern Dancer stock.... the greatest sires in Europe over the last 20 years, Sadler's Wells and Danehill were US bred.
There's no room for parochialism or xenophobia when it comes to breeding. Get your hands on the best blood and breed to it.

[vineyridge]

That's why I'm so high on Lanciano. There is no better Blood out there than Surumu, and when it's sex balanced crossed with a full brother-sister Birkhahn/Lis top and bottom, the odds are very much in the breeder's favor.

[Foxtrot's]

Hey - I'm not parochial or xenophobic - that's a low blow! I'm breeding an ISH myself and if it is a filly, it may well be bred to a continental horse. Just that it would be a shame to lose the basic Irish horse. I know they are keeping the gene pool and using other stock breed the sporthorse, which is why Mountain Pearl was returned to Ireland.

[Robby Johnson]

Denny, et. al., the company for which I work has an extensive art collection. There is an oil painting of Spendthrift hanging on the way to our cafeteria. If the building ever caught on fire, I can assure you the only thing I would run to claim is this painting. I walk by it daily and am just captivated. I took a pic of it with my camera phone but cannot get it to MMS (email client!) to post here. I will take a regular digi of it today and try to share it. Beautiful horse in very much that old style that has become so rare.

[showmom07]

It's not just the TB industry either...look at the poor little QH babies that are already old pro's with over a year of hard work on them by the time they get to the 3 yr. old futurities! Then, of course, they're toast by the time they are 5 or 6. It's truly scary! Katja

Just to clarify. Futurities are for TWO-YEAR-OLDS. Derbies are for 3 yo. There are a lot of racing QHs started as long yearlings.

[tbmorgan]

Yes, I realize that RACING futurities are for 2 yr. olds..I was actually referring to the cutting and reining futurities, which are for 3 yr. olds. In any case, they are ALL too damn young to be working that hard!

Katja

[Robby Johnson]

Just because I said I would ... here's a photograph of the painting of Spendthrift.

Except I don't have a picture posting button. OMG, how do I post a pic? I am a subscriber!

[J Swan]

Robby - it didn't post! Try again! I'd love to see it.

[Janet]

Just because I said I would ... here's a photograph of the painting of Spendthrift.

Except I don't have a picture posting button. OMG, how do I post a pic? I am a subscriber!
I would guess that your premium membership just expired- just like mine!

[J Swan]

Robbie -

Email it to me and I'll post it.

I'll pm you my email address.

[goeslikestink]

Then your experience is clearly with crappy poorly bred t/b's

There's a mass of t/b's that are well bred for stamina and type. They're athletic and they're stayers and bold and brave and will whoop the ass off any warmblood for speed.

Those who think ALL t/b's have crappy feet and are sold for a pittance REALLY do need to get out and see the higher end of the market.

Regrettably the market is large and that means there's a lot to wade through and if you don't know about the breed you can end up in the situation where you don't know what you don't know and start to think that the crap is the norm.

Its not though.

Personally speaking, if for whatever reason I was stuck with absolutely only having to chose one breed, then it would without hesitation be a thoroughbred.


i have to agree- as my freind breeds quality tb's well i know serveral that do, and grace is very well bred and hasnt ever had a foot problem but the lower end of the market does its well known for flat feet and even in part breds

[Barnfairy]

*Barnfairy stumbles over from the racing forum, glass in hand, clinking*

Sure, the breeding for the sales ring trend going on in the racing industry makes me cRaZy.

Yes, the majority of races in America today are a mile or shorter.

But the lines for durable iron horses are still there -- do your homework.

Here is a smattering of horses that are entered to run this Saturday at Suffolk Downs (check out the # of starts these horses have, and counting!):

Prado Power (http://www.pedigreequery.com/prado+power)

U U Star (http://www.pedigreequery.com/u+u+star)

Stars n' Amber (http://www.pedigreequery.com/stars+n+amber)

Ennscho (http://www.pedigreequery.com/ennscho)

Jason's Miracle (http://www.pedigreequery.com/jasons+miracle)

Harvick (http://www.pedigreequery.com/harvick)

Rubiano Lad (http://www.pedigreequery.com/rubiano+lad)

This one's on my watch list and just breezed yesterday:

Christmas Away (http://www.pedigreequery.com/christmas+away)

And these were all listed on CANTER NE within the last couple years:

Applied Economics (http://www.pedigreequery.com/applied+economics)

Let Me Be Frank (http://www.pedigreequery.com/let+me+be+frank)

Witty Bill (http://www.pedigreequery.com/witty+bill)

Seemslikeyesterday (http://www.pedigreequery.com/seemslikeyesterday)

and of course, my favorite:

Rasor D (http://www.pedigreequery.com/rasor+d) (Sorry ladies, he's mine!) ;)

[Kementari]

and of course, my favorite:

Rasor D (http://www.pedigreequery.com/rasor+d) (Sorry ladies, he's mine!) ;)

Wow - 130 starts, AND his damsire is my horse's (http://www.pedigreequery.com/move+over+moon) sire (since he wasn't exactly the most prolific sire ever, it's a fun coincidence ;)). We may have to fight for him... :eek: :lol:

[Barnfairy]

Wow - 130 starts, AND his damsire is my horse's (http://www.pedigreequery.com/move+over+moon) sire (since he wasn't exactly the most prolific sire ever, it's a fun coincidence ;)). We may have to fight for him... :eek: :lol:Ooh, and we're in the same state even. The gloves are off!!! :yes: :lol:

[Kementari]

Ooh, and we're in the same state even. The gloves are off!!! :yes: :lol:

Ha! (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/fighting/fighting0030.gif)

[camohn]

What with Big Brown`s falling apart feet, Eight Belles fragile ankles, Barbaro`s brittle hind legs, it speaks volumes about where the modern tb is, and has been, headed.
Racing is increasingly all about high speeds, short distances at young ages, and breeders seem to care very little about intrinsic toughness, if early blazing speed is there.
Even the TB magazines are full of warnings about this, and when you talk with old fashioned TB breeders who remember the 50s-60s etc, they are in despair.
It strikes me that eventers will feel this pinch sooner or later, as our sport has long depended upon the racing leftovers.
Any thoughts where we`re going to get the soundness from that we need for our sport?
The Irish Draught lines?
The warmblood showjumper lines?
Mixed with what?
I didn't read all the posts....there are a lot of them...will read them later when I have more time...but since the race breeders are no longer providing horses as suitable for being sporthorses than those that want TBs are simply going to have to start breeding them more for sport specifically. Yes, I know there are pots of OTTs that go onto being lovely sporthorses.....but the ones that ARE a suitable sporthorse type ARE in fact dwindling quickly. The average precocious dirt sprinter is looking more and more like a halter QH: downhill, big butt, steep croup, little feet and ankles. Most of the race cards are written for dirt sprinters these days. The Classic distances get the most press for the Derby etc. but really they are not the bulk of the races that 95% of the horses are running in. Most Saturday nights the hubby and I go to OTB for a burger and a few bets. Thumbing through the race form there are some classy distance horses out at Santa Anita and occasionally a few other places.....but most are 6F sprints. Hubby is amazed that for the past month I have about a 75% win record on my bets. I don't even look at the program anymore. I look at the post parade. I bet on the horse that looks the most like a QH in build and does not also look stiff/off etc. That is not the classic TB of old from endurance/turf/distance lines with legs and bone. Probably the single biggest influence on breeding for race TBs these days is Mr. Prospector. I know, I know...there are folks with Mr. P offspring that are sound and have straight legs. There are far more that do NOT though. The saying aobut Mr. P is "they are great horses IF you can get a sound one with straight legs". It was a horrible problem with his direct offspring.....fortunately he is getting farhter back in more pedigrees now...and some of his offspring like Fappiano and Not For Love are far better built than some of his trainwreck offspring.....but all in all between his sons and daughters he is a HUGE influence.

All in all the old classic TB lines for endurance/turf are fast disappearing from race-land. They are still floating around in the sport TBs but once they are lost to the racelines they are probably not coming back either as the race folks do not want to breed to unraced TBs plus some sport TBs are also bred by AI eliminating them from the JC gene pool.

Basically it IS up to sporthorse breeders to preserve the old turf lines here.

In the long run it is going to have a real impact on the race industry too when there are few sporthorse type TBs because so many TBs do not end up being good racehorses and end up at Canter/ReRun etc. seeking a new job. As fewer and fewer are suited to being good sporthorses as a second career it is going to be more and more difficult to place the ones that can't run either.

The vet that was here doing PPE xrays on a TB gelding I have for sale is a track vet said it is amazing the difference between a PPE for a sporthorse and a racebuyer. The average race buyer he works with looks at the pedigree, wants to know if the heart is good, the horse does not have a wind issue and looks for any major puffy joints and he is done. The PPEs for SH folks generally involve extensive xrays and are much more thorough. Horses that can't pass a PPE ARE hared to sell to sporthorse folks....so bum ankles etc. not only limit the race career, it also hurts where they can go later.

[sm]

In the long run it is going to have a real impact on the race industry too when there are few sporthorse type TBs because so many TBs do not end up being good racehorses and end up at Canter/ReRun etc. seeking a new job. As fewer and fewer are suited to being good sporthorses as a second career it is going to be more and more difficult to place the ones that can't run either.

A very well thought out post and I agree with everything you said. And I'll take you one step further: we change the marketplace. Not the horse: the marketplace.

I do have one of these AQHA-type TB bullets, although with excellent legs and feet, and he competed and won regionally (against imported WBs) in dressage of all things. He is built downhill, but is beautifully balanced and does not move on the forehand. A major distinction. However, there are few or no places left because of the uphill sport horses standard (understanding of course uphill WBs can still move downhill and their hocks are often a mess). So there is a major distinction between being capable and being in demand.

The AQHA took a handful of cow ponies, tackled the marketplace, and is now the largest registry by far. They made a spot for their horses. They created a new FEI sport -- reining -- out of a ranch pony. They made a spot for their horses.

So it is possible to take a straight up JC TB, of whatever conformation, and make a home for him. The TB should not be second class citizens in their own country. The suits and the bean counters aren't the people who can get this done, although I beleive it can be done by a couple of horse moms on steriods...

So for the FEI rulings, the dominance of dressage (not classically correct by a long shot but rulings which simply reward extravagent coach horse gaits) --- I say bring it on.

[camohn]

For those who study pedigrees, what TB lines are known for sturdiness and longevity? Which are notably not?

I wonder if the trend of shorter races (overall) and breeding for speed rather than distance has contributed at all.

Ones I avoid:
Mr. P in general throws a lot of crooked front legs and soundness problems....some of his offspring more than others. Fappiano and Not For Love are among a few I don't run from. This comes from his sire Raise A Native so I would be careful of looking carefully at a horse from RAN/Mr.P lines and would RUN from one linebred to them. It gets a bit better when you get away from them a few generations,

Halo line: Halo and Gray Ghost are completely insane. Most of the Halo offspring (ie Sunnys Halo etc.) are not nuts like Halo but still tend to be "tough"...again....no horse fits every mold and there are Halo line horses that are not tough but I have met enough of them that ARE that not a fave for me.

Unbridled line tends to be not so sound in the legs department.

Hail To Reason is a funny line...depends on which one. Some are difficult and some (like Roberto and Hail The Pirates) are lovely tempered hunter sires.

Northern Dancer : is so prevelant you can't get away from it and if not too linebred he was an athletic though smaller and hotter horse. Get too much linebreeding w/ him you get crappy feet though.

OLD lines I look for that add sturdiness are Nasrullah/Bold Ruler (not easy horses in that they have quirky personalities....but sound), Spy Song, Mahmoud, Bulldog, Buckpasser, Pleasant Colony.

Edited to add: TV Lark/TV Commercial, Herbager, Grey Dawn are also oldies but goodies.

[camohn]

Here are a couple modern horses (TBs) with unusually long race lives
http://www.pedigreequery.com/nashuas+tune
this mare is mine...somone erased her race record dang it! She had 49 or 50 starts at the track and retired sound to be a 4' jumper after that.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sir+juli+go
http://www.pedigreequery.com/strawberry+gogo

Sir Juli Go retired from racing at 10, retired sound and is now eventing and his sister looks just as sound which is why the folks that bought him went and bought her too!

[camohn]

From this discussion, it looks to me as if the racing industry breeds horses like you would approach the lottery. They are not trying to build a breed, they are trying to hit the jackpot. A proven winner who was lucky enough to win before he broke down (even if he has obvious faults) will not be weeded out, but will be paired with mares which will hopefully compensate for the defects. The incentives are too great. The horse will only have to win and survive until he is 3. That's the goal, and luck is a huge part of it. Even if he has defects, with luck he will get through, and at that point he will become the lottery payoff.

Well as far as a mid sized race breeder I know goes as an example..yes. He said he tried breeding correct horses. They didn't win as much. He quit trying to breed correct horses and just bred speed to speed with no thought to confo. He now has crooked legged horses that run real fast. They win more, so he does not care.

[camohn]

Oh please Merrygoround. Have you ever had a tb??? Those thin little shelly feet are impossible to keep whole.
I have had TBs for years. I only have one that has shelly feet. Our stallion never wore shoes...even in training. And he is not the exception here.

[Jaegermonster]

I don't think it is the breed as much as it is the breed-ING and the breed-ERS.

I have an OTTB mare that is a Northern Dancer granddaughter on the top and a Buckpasser great grand on the bottom.
When I wanted to breed her, I wanted a TB, because I love them. I also knew that I wanted to get as far away from the Northern Dancer, Bold Ruler (my experiences with them have not been positive) and the Mr. P. breeding. I didn't want any inbreeding, linebreeding or whatever else. And I wanted a stallion that had actually done something, done it well, had decent feet and had stayed sound.
And I found Reputed Testamony. I could not be happier with the foal. I got the best of both parents and good feet and a good brain.
But as someone else said, I was breeding for longevity and for a sporthorse, not a race horse.
They don't care about the feet or the brain as long as it can run like hell.
It's all about the almight dollar for most of the racehorse people, at least the ones that pay the bills. It's not about the horses. Maybe on a smaller scale for some of the folks on this board, or people like the Jacksons, but IMHO they are exceptions rather than the rule.
Until that changes, we will keep seeing more of the same, breeding TB's to whoever is in fashion and can run, in order to get big prices at the yearling sales and try to win the big races for the big purses. Horses don't make any $$ if they aren't running, and we all know keeping them is expensive, and running them and running the breeding farm is too.

[TB or not TB?]

camohn, thanks! That was very helpful info about the bloodlines. I had heard that about the Mr. P breds; it's a shame that line is so popular.

[grayarabs]

I did not see this website posted yet:
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/sound-horses.html

Opinions - but interesting starting paragraph 4 - with further links to tough stallions.
Interesting the theory - racing years ago and now - distance - and body type of the horses. ie the shorter the race - the more down-hill the horse. 1.1/2 miles considered short compared to years ago. Are our TB's built more downhill than a 100-200 years ago?
Legs therefore take more pounding?
Again I mention reading in COTH - 15 years ago? A. Mackay-Smith suggesting to add Arabian blood back to the TB for soundness, endurance, etc.
I love TB's and Arabians - and surely love an Anglo-Arab. I think the AA an ideal eventing horse - why do we not see more of them?

[camohn]

I did not see this website posted yet:
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/sound-horses.html

Opinions - but interesting starting paragraph 4 - with further links to tough stallions.
Interesting the theory - racing years ago and now - distance - and body type of the horses. ie the shorter the race - the more down-hill the horse. 1.1/2 miles considered short compared to years ago. Are our TB's built more downhill than a 100-200 years ago?
Legs therefore take more pounding?
Again I mention reading in COTH - 15 years ago? A. Mackay-Smith suggesting to add Arabian blood back to the TB for soundness, endurance, etc.
I love TB's and Arabians - and surely love an Anglo-Arab. I think the AA an ideal eventing horse - why do we not see more of them?

With the Arabs and sporthorses it is the same thing as the race Tbs versus the sport TBs: depends on the TYPE of Arab. Until the recent upswing in popularity of the Sport Arab the most pricey and popular type of Arab was the predominantly Egyptian type Arab in halter classes. The halter Arab has been selectively bred for the teeniest teacup head/muzzle and a flat croup. An Arab breeder friend of mine said the steep/flat croup trend started because it made it easier to "park out" the horse. Buuttt....that steep/flat croup is not conducive to strength under saddle. OTOH you have the (usually Polish bred) endurance bred Arab. It looks nothing like it's halter cousin. The Polish and Shagya Arabs are RIDING horses. They have a butt!!!
I honestly can't picture one of the halter Arabs trekking 100 miles across the desert....any more than I can picture the modern halter QH/Paint chasing a cow across the prarie in all it's Mr. Universe glory.
As for the Arabs though...thankfully recently there has been a real upswing in the popularity of the Sporthorse Arab and Half Arab. The 2 half Arab sporthorse foals I have had sold as a weanling and yearling for a good price....so I can't complain there.


FWIW I bred a WB/Arab cross colt (WB dam/Arab sire). I had his ad on Equine and Dreamhorse.com. My Arab breeder friend alerted me to a thread going on an Arab breeding forum that was poking fun at his confo. (We are talking halter folks here). I got the last laugh though...he went on to be the reserve champion half arab sport horse on the west coast (all ages) at the age of 2 after I sold him as a long yearling.

[grayarabs]

Yup - forget the halter Arabs. Go for the tough athletic ones. Half arab/Half TB fine.
75 pct TB 25 Arab pct better?! How much Arab blood in Tamarillo? And look at little Teddy - 1/8? Wonder how much the shetty blood in him is helping?!
Actually love what Denny said about Vikor. (sp?) Four different breeds!
So... TB plus Arab plus something else tough.......I think Wynn has been on the right track!!!
Could one say the TB is the most frail breed doing the most demanding sports?

[camohn]

I would not really say TBs are frail in general. If they were, they would not have dominated eventing until very recently. I think it is fair to say that there are more frail TBs recently due to specialized breeding (the precocious 6F or less dirt sprinter) without regard to soundness. Almost any other breed is just starting their career under saddle at 4 and a successful TB racer is often retired at 4.
As one poster said earlier (more or less)...it's not a breed problem, it's a breed-ER problem.

The shoeless wonder TB stallion we had
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BoomerJump.jpg
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BoomertrotOct05-1.jpg

bred to this twig of a TB mare (Chieftain/Native Dancer bred)
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=AnnieRight407Reduced.jpg

produced this kid
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BuckMarch082.jpg
& looking shiny at FEH last year at 2.....
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=Buckfeh651.jpg

[grayarabs]

FWIW - I often think of the Arabian stallion Mesaoud - meanwhile over a hundred years later you don't see much of his type, sadly:
www.arabs-iowa.com/AFH-Mesaoud.htm
Wonder how he/his type would cross with TB's for AA's for eventing.

[Bravestrom]

Here is my answer - add some old fashioned draft blood and some old horse bloodlines.

We have a clyde/hackney/swedish warmblood colt -he is the base of one of our breeding lines - on the other side I have a belgian tb/rio grande baby

My plan is to add bone and brains - both these horses will produce babies that will be 1/8 draft.

the horse of the year for the ontario horse trials association was 1/8 belgian.

I believe my colt will be the perfect choice for tb mares - to add some bone and cool brain. Purebreds may be great but I believe that sometimes new blood needs to be added to clean it out.

check out my yearling and some of our other draft crosses at
www.hotelfun4kids.com/horses.htm

[grayarabs]

Pro - makes me think of Charisma - TB with some Percheron?

[sm]

Camohn post 130: sweet!!!

[eqsiu]

FWIW - I often think of the Arabian stallion Mesaoud - meanwhile over a hundred years later you don't see much of his type, sadly:
www.arabs-iowa.com/AFH-Mesaoud.htm (http://www.arabs-iowa.com/AFH-Mesaoud.htm)
Wonder how he/his type would cross with TB's for AA's for eventing.

Quite the contrast to Bask, huh?

[vineyridge]

Foxhunters have always loved draft crosses that are predominately TB. I think a touch of draft makes the horse somewhat less self willed.

As to Arabs, I'm keeping an Anglo Arab for a friend. The Arab part of the mare is Polish, and she doesn't look as if she had any TB OR classic Arab in her. It's really very odd. She's fun to ride, and I love having her, but she certainly doesn't remind you of TB or a modern Arab when you look at her.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Right now, the best steeplechaser in the UK and Ireland is a horse named Denman. He's 17+hh, sturdily built, 8 years old, big feet, gallops 3 1/2 miles over 22 fences like it's nothing. He's by the very good flat racer Presenting (http://www.rathbarrystud.com/pres_about.htm).

And of course, Denman is all TB. He was bred to do what he's doing.

In the UK and Ireland, National Hunt racing ensures a second tier of TB stallions that produce TBs to run and jump over long distances. The stallions are cheaper to breed to than flat racing stallions (although most top NH stallions were flat racers, not jumpers) and, as distances aren't so great in the UK or Ireland, you never have to travel that far to breed your mare to them. We just don't have this here.

Apropos this topic, there's a filly (http://www.tattersalls.ie/sales/june2008/00000151.pdf) out of a full sister to Moonfleet slated to go through the ring at Tattersall's (http://www.tattersalls.ie/salescats/previous/catalogue-june2008-lots_237.html).

[nskakel]

I have been told that we don't use the term "Hungarian Warmblood" but am not sure why, but they prefer Hungarian Felver -- I think Hungarian WB gets used all the time, though)[/QUOTE]

HUNGARIAN FELVERS are not warmbloods because they do not have any cold blood in their ancestry. They share this characteristic with Trakehners (and also some blood lines). The felver breed was developed at Kisber, the main Hungarian military stud, using English thorooughbreds and native Oriental mares. Shagya blood was later introduced ("A drop of ink in the pool") to improve temperment, stamina, and thriftiness. Throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, Hungarian cavalry horses were reknowned and sought after across Europe as the finest military horses produced. The Germans, Russians, and US General George Patton sought them as prizes of war. At the same time that Patton was saving the Lipizzans, he also helped rescue some of the finest of the Hungarian horses which had been evacuated to Bavaria at the end of WWII. Patton selected a few of the best of those horses and sent them to Fort Reno, Kansas, for the US cavalry remount. He pledged that the other Hungarianhorses would be returned to Hungary as national treasures. Patton died (was killed?) and Major Owen, who replaced him, sold most of those chief stallions and premium mares to the serum works and Italian sausage factories. This was documented by my mentor, Capt. Laszlo Monostory, who was there when it happened.
There are a few felvers in the US today, mostly decendants of those Patton imports. Most flevers in this country have been outcrossed to other warmblood breeds, or have too high a percentage of Arabian blood to be considred true felvers. Hungary is struggling to re-establish its horse breeding industry after the devestation of two wolrd wars, the communist occupation, and economic disaster. Several wonderful Hungarian breeds, such as the Furioso-Northstar, are on the verge of extinction.

[nskakel]

I have been told that we don't use the term "Hungarian Warmblood" but am not sure why, but they prefer Hungarian Felver -- I think Hungarian WB gets used all the time, though)[/QUOTE]

HUNGARIAN FELVERS are not warmbloods because they do not have any cold blood in their ancestry. They share this characteristic with Trakehners (and also some blood lines). The felver breed was developed at Kisber, the main Hungarian military stud, using English thorooughbreds and native Oriental mares. Shagya blood was later introduced ("A drop of ink in the pool") to improve temperment, stamina, and thriftiness. Throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, Hungarian cavalry horses were reknowned and sought after across Europe as the finest military horses produced. The Germans, Russians, and US General George Patton sought them as prizes of war. At the same time that Patton was saving the Lipizzans, he also helped rescue some of the finest of the Hungarian horses which had been evacuated to Bavaria at the end of WWII. Patton selected a few of the best of those horses and sent them to Fort Reno, Kansas, for the US cavalry remount. He pledged that the other Hungarianhorses would be returned to Hungary as national treasures. Patton died (was killed?) and Major Owen, who replaced him, sold most of those chief stallions and premium mares to the serum works and Italian sausage factories. This was documented by my mentor, Capt. Laszlo Monostory, who was there when it happened.
There are a few felvers in the US today, mostly decendants of those Patton imports. Most flevers in this country have been outcrossed to other warmblood breeds, or have too high a percentage of Arabian blood to be considred true felvers. Hungary is struggling to re-establish its horse breeding industry after the devestation of two wolrd wars, the communist occupation, and economic disaster. Several wonderful Hungarian breeds, such as the Furioso-Northstar, are on the verge of extinction.
I have one felver mare in my herd of purebred Shagyas. I would only breed her to a flever stallion or the right tb stallion. (Dr. Balasz Pataki, Director of Horse Breeding in Hungary, told me "It is easy to find good thoroughbreds, but difficult to find a thoroughbred good for brreding warmblood sport horses.") Laszlo told me when considering a tb, to look first at temperament, then at bone and joints, and lastly at gaits. He recommended that I look at the line of Secretariat. Several years ago I found an excellent son of Secretariat. "Secret Consul" had an easy-going, kind temperament, very good bone and strong, clean joints, and fluid gaits. Another Secretariat son, America's Promise, impressed us with the uniformity and quality of his get. I would appreciate any tips on find a tb stallion of this quality today.
Today's American racing (sprinting) tbs are very different from the Irish, English, and French eventing and steeplecahsing tbs. It was predicted, accurately, the Eight Bells would breakdown based on her pedigree. If you breed for only one characteristic, ie speed, you are always going to forfeit on other characteristics. The American tb breeders need to pay more attention to soundness of both mind and legs, just like QHs and navicular.

[rideforthelaurels16]

I hate to think of the Thoroughbred becoming less and less relevant in the modern sporthorse world - however, there is so much factual evidence to support this claim! Sad.
I'm lucky in that my Thoroughbred is quite a "classic" type - he raced for several years, went out 38 times, and retired because he wasn't happy, not because he wasn't sound. He also has BIG hard feet and is barefoot right now, fronts the rest of the year.
As far as crosses go, I love a good Irish/TB, but as talented as they are,they're not always 100% "user friendly". They have spunk, and they (I'm totally generalizing here) tend to have a buck in them. Plus, they're expensive! Nothing beats picking up a project at the track for <$1000 and building your next competition horse.

[nextyear]

I don't think it is the breed as much as it is the breed-ING and the breed-ERS.


The TB of yesteryear had its issues also, we did not hear about all the breakdowns like we do today just because of the access we have to all means of news.But the breeders are at fault just as much as the trainers can be, when weanlings are being pumed up with steriods to be saleable at the yearling sales it has to have a effect on the body when it starts being pushed as a long yearling to be saleable at the 2 year old in training sales where time stats is $$$.
And what about the breeder (whether profesional or backyard) that breeds the mare because she is not sound? What do you expect to get...
And when did they start breeding off the pedigree and wins and not conformation and soundness? This is not something that just started.The old guys can scratch their heads and say its just not the TB it used to be but come on this type of breeding did not start in the last few years it has been happening for many many years.

[beanie&boomer]

Really interesting to read this thread and go back through the older posts.

A quick note on Mesaoud -- John Baker of Vitriak Hydaway used to cross Arabs from the Mesaoud line with his Appaloosas. I think he had a theory that Mesaoud was one of the Arab lines more likely to produce spots, in addition to the other endurance, refinement and soundness qualities that he liked.

I also find the comments interesting that if you look at these NH bloodlines, they are in many cases the very same ones we have here. Some of these horses did not find success at stud in North America, and were sent across where their offspring have had greater success on the turf and on longer distances. But -- you can certainly still find those bloodlines here.

I breed TB/Cleveland Bay crosses with a goal of producing horses that will be successful in eventing. I have a few 7/8 TB and 1/8 CBs that should be making their competition debuts this year and I am hoping that they will have great success.

I've tried to study TB lines and come up with horses that will be sound, sane and talented. Right now I am using a TB stallion Mt. Vidmore (Mt. Livermore x Vid Kid, ex Pleasant Colony) over some 3/4 TB-1/4 CB mares. The foundation mare on all of this was a Northern Dancer daughter out of a Tudor Minstrel mare. My first crop is from 2009, but I really like how they look -- and act -- as babies.

I have found that the In Reality TB lines provide a good degree of physical toughness, but they may be mentally tough as well. I currently work with two by Honour and Glory, both good-sized, athletic and kind, that seem to be good examples of this line but without the difficult streak.

I like to look for horses that have shown a bit of longevity in terms of numbers of starts, etc. and years on the track, when I am looking at bloodlines -- in addition to some of the lines that are known for performance. I shy away from the Mr. Ps, except as someone else has pointed out, won't run quite so fast from the Fappianos.

Would love to see a really nice Sadler's Wells in the US, but the ones I know of tend to throw towards the small or delicate side, though I have seen some really nice ones by Wayne County.

Anyone looking to breed toward some of these lines -- have a look at the stallion season auctions sponsored by the various state TB organizations. You might find something really good!

[Stacie]

I know a vet who works with both TB and Standardbred breedrs and he believes that many breeders are so worried about bone problems that they are raising their horses using controlled starvation and this is causing their bones and joints to be fragile. Not enough mineral and protein to get the job done.

[judybigredpony]

I read most of the posts on this subject, I buy and sell exclusively OTTB's. Alot, and most now seem to be sold to eventers.
And sorry I don't get any of your concerns. I would no sooner buy a prospect w/ crappy feet or fragile bone quality regardless of gaits conformation or mind than throw money down the drain.
So why is there even a discussion. If the horse doesn't have the feet or bone quality why even consider training it let alone buy it. End of discussion.
There are crap cars built every day doesn't mean you have to buy it.
Its not about the TB breeders, they are a business entity unto them selves.
We are a secondary market and have no influence and never will for horses bred to race. But we wait w/ open arms to buy the by-product.

Its up to US to carefully choose what we buy and as an extension possibly purpose breed back those exceptional athletse who make the cut.

But to carp about early speed, shorter distances, younger starts, Quick money making high profile stallions going to Stud early w/ infirmates...avoid their get its that easy.
I have certain stallion I avoid and certain Dam sires I avoid...but then there are the combinations I seek out because of the consistancey of talent soundness and mind.

To discuss the cross breeding to WB's (of almost any breed) if you look back far enough you will find a strong TB influence there as well.
Its those tough TB warriors that are so cheap or the smart young ones not fashionalby bred who are the bargains.

We can't economically replicate a nice big correct 3yr OTTB for under $3K who can and will do the job. By comparision try to buy a purpose bred 3yr old who is broke, and has had the life experiances for the same price. Can't be bought @ that price point.I can buy 4-5 OTTB's for what 1 purpose bred will cost me and after weeding them out spend less to buy an get them all going plus sell. Than 1 who might or might not make it cost me.
Thats why we will keep going back for those OTTB's.
And with the TB business in such bad shape right now the quality of whats available and AFFORDABLE has jumped way up the ladder.
We are in the Drivers seat and don't even know it! right now to have affordable access to top quality bloodline and conformation, we can afford to hand pick thru the backsides and actually buy that blood and conformation, make up that athlete and use the bloodlines to have an influence down the road on what we ride. Or not............

For those afraid to take the plunge there are plenty of us out here who have the product at a remarkable slim margin of a mark-up. Who will let you ride the horse or see it jump and get it vetted and blood tox screened.
For those of you who need a guiding light we have luminaries like Stuart Pittman to guide you thru the process.

Every breed has a bloodline of brilliant horses who have real frailties, those exceptional horses who unfortunately pass on these weak traits coupled with pretty hopefulls who should just be eye candy cause they are to brittle.
Those horse deserve the respect they commanded as competitors but need to keep it in their pants.

Denny I love these debates you spark , and Viney Ridge bow to your encyclopedia of bloodline knowledge.:yes::yes:

[magicteetango]

I have three Thoroughbreds. Of the three horses, I think the geldings are heavier built than my filly. The one with a trace clip is definitely the heaviest, and fox hunters and steeplechase people tend to drool over him for that quality.

Pardon the farm photos, it's a work in progress.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30913040&l=289603bb42&id=83501696

http://www.pedigreequery.com/beanie+bop
Beanie

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30800295&l=562e1f861c&id=83501696

http://www.pedigreequery.com/casey+darling2
Casey

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2023409&id=83501696#/photo.php?pid=30586348&id=83501696
Bowden - Pedigree Unknown

All three are barefoot, pretty much always have been. I have no issues with flaky feet or soreness. I've never had any real lameness issues with all three either, except Bowden has arthritis.

[shawneeAcres]

I didn't read all of the posts on this, and see this is an older thread, but my perspective is that, actually The TB's PARTICULARLY OTTB's hold up BETTER than the WB crosses. I have a 8 yr old OTTB here at my farm. He came off the track last June after racing for 4 years pretty much non-stop, one race every 6 - 8 weeks! Earned over $67000! What WB do you know that could do that and retire sound? We are now retraining him for sale and think he is an AWESOME event prospect. THis is him AND he is now completely barefoot!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIit2xeDvLQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov8gHxjfpAw

Yes we have some WB crosses, but the ones I prefer have a LARGE PERCENTAGE of TB blood in them. WB feet and legs just seem prone to caudal heel pain, suspensory issues etc. I like the TB's!

[Eventer55]

Oh please Merrygoround. Have you ever had a tb??? Those thin little shelly feet are impossible to keep whole.

Hey, I resemble that remark. . .
late to the game here, but just, wanted to say I've had 4 Thoroughbreds in my life and ridden numerous others. None had bad feet, in fact the only reason my mare has shoes is because my vet recomended it just to be safe.

Sort of like why I put pads on my endurance horses, one stone bruise can knock you out of the running and why take the chance? I also can't put caulks on a barefoot horse.

And why are all the top endurance horses Arabs with tiny bone structure, they just keep on keepin' on. According to a lot of WB breeders they should all be dead lame. I pounded the hard packed dirt roads from Vermont to Virginia on my little Arabs and rarely had a problem.

Can we just breed sound horses and not breed horses with shelly feet or crooked legs. Or better yet don't buy them unless they are sound with good feet.

[DLee]

My TB's are all barefoot, and have been, even in Arizona which is basically one big rock. I have had no issues with soundness (even on my Mr.P horses) except for a neurological issue my Slew grandson came with.
I think 'tb frailty' is a huge blanket statement.

[cottagefarm]

Great post JBRP!:yes:


I read most of the posts on this subject, I buy and sell exclusively OTTB's. Alot, and most now seem to be sold to eventers.
And sorry I don't get any of your concerns. I would no sooner buy a prospect w/ crappy feet or fragile bone quality regardless of gaits conformation or mind than throw money down the drain.
So why is there even a discussion. If the horse doesn't have the feet or bone quality why even consider training it let alone buy it. End of discussion.
There are crap cars built every day doesn't mean you have to buy it.
Its not about the TB breeders, they are a business entity unto them selves.
We are a secondary market and have no influence and never will for horses bred to race. But we wait w/ open arms to buy the by-product.

Its up to US to carefully choose what we buy and as an extension possibly purpose breed back those exceptional athletse who make the cut.

But to carp about early speed, shorter distances, younger starts, Quick money making high profile stallions going to Stud early w/ infirmates...avoid their get its that easy.
I have certain stallion I avoid and certain Dam sires I avoid...but then there are the combinations I seek out because of the consistancey of talent soundness and mind.

To discuss the cross breeding to WB's (of almost any breed) if you look back far enough you will find a strong TB influence there as well.
Its those tough TB warriors that are so cheap or the smart young ones not fashionalby bred who are the bargains.

We can't economically replicate a nice big correct 3yr OTTB for under $3K who can and will do the job. By comparision try to buy a purpose bred 3yr old who is broke, and has had the life experiances for the same price. Can't be bought @ that price point.I can buy 4-5 OTTB's for what 1 purpose bred will cost me and after weeding them out spend less to buy an get them all going plus sell. Than 1 who might or might not make it cost me.
Thats why we will keep going back for those OTTB's.
And with the TB business in such bad shape right now the quality of whats available and AFFORDABLE has jumped way up the ladder.
We are in the Drivers seat and don't even know it! right now to have affordable access to top quality bloodline and conformation, we can afford to hand pick thru the backsides and actually buy that blood and conformation, make up that athlete and use the bloodlines to have an influence down the road on what we ride. Or not............

For those afraid to take the plunge there are plenty of us out here who have the product at a remarkable slim margin of a mark-up. Who will let you ride the horse or see it jump and get it vetted and blood tox screened.
For those of you who need a guiding light we have luminaries like Stuart Pittman to guide you thru the process.

Every breed has a bloodline of brilliant horses who have real frailties, those exceptional horses who unfortunately pass on these weak traits coupled with pretty hopefulls who should just be eye candy cause they are to brittle.
Those horse deserve the respect they commanded as competitors but need to keep it in their pants.

Denny I love these debates you spark , and Viney Ridge bow to your encyclopedia of bloodline knowledge.:yes::yes:

[Beam Me Up]

Just curious, has it ever been studied/proven that heavier built TBs are sounder?

My experience, which is of course not statistically significant, has been the reverse--my lighter built ones have held up better.

I can see both sides of it--the heavier built horses have larger feet/legs, but they also are carrying more weight on them with every stride/jump, and bone density is hard to determine from build.

Just wondering if this has ever been studied?

[judybigredpony]

Just curious, has it ever been studied/proven that heavier built TBs are sounder?

My experience, which is of course not statistically significant, has been the reverse--my lighter built ones have held up better.

I can see both sides of it--the heavier built horses have larger feet/legs, but they also are carrying more weight on them with every stride/jump, and bone density is hard to determine from build.

Just wondering if this has ever been studied?

So heres a vision....many moons ago and pounds lighter jumping down off a 16.2 horse onto my size 91/2's was easy on teh feet ankles knees, now after 2 births and alotta left over pounds it hurts like h*ll when I land on those same 91/2's.
I finder lighter boned, or actually lighter on their feet, quicker off teh ground soft landres hold up a heck of a lot longer than ponderous lift off's and landings.
Seriously if I "Feel the earth move under my feet" when on trots buy I walk Bye Bye.............
Old horse deal in Ireland told me turn your back Lass and listen 1st, 1. you will hear if its unsound and 2. if it strikes the ground that hard how long will those joints last.
My friends Clyedsdale is soft and light on his feet and I have a fox hutner TB who clobbers the ground...but heck he's quiet and comfortable but would I make him an eventer or jumper...no way.