Pics of Big Brown's front feet

[tnscvaga]

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/

Scroll down to see up close pics of Big Brown's reconstructed front feet

[VirginiaBred]

Fascinating! Thanks for posting that!

[Acertainsmile]

Go through my pics, and look at Smarty Jones feet....nothing totally new here...

I've even made it easier for you...

http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/photo/photo/show?id=1971868%3APhoto%3A66975

[royal militron]

Thanx, very interesting!

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Fascinating look at reconstructing feet.

Given what was said in the article, is there any information that Big Brown began life with bad feet, or was it a combination of other factors that led to his problems? From bad shoeing, improper nutrition, to just plain over-reaching and tearing a shoe off. (Which can, in theory, be corrected various ways)

Those feet look like they've had trouble. But is it the breeding or something else? BB has the Damascus/Round Table thing going, but also 2 crosses of Northern Dancer and therefore, back to 2 crosses (In 5 generations, at least) of Native Dancer.

What a lovely frog on Gayego! Damascus on top with 1 cross of Native Dancer in the fourth generation and 1 in the sixth, as far as I've looked.

What lines are known for throwing bad feet? (Vs. bad legs)

I think it might be harder to factor in genetics vs. environment where it concerns feet.

On another note, I've heard (caveat) that Gold Digger, dam of Mr. Prospector, had a club foot and that the Prospector's tend to throw that. Can anyone comment on the truth of the matter? (I had a Mr. Prospector grand daughter with a slight one, but again, club feet, at least when I was looking for answers, seem to fall in that genetic/environment argument again):confused:

[Granada]

My farrier uses epoxy on my OTTB sometimes too, it works great to keep his quarters from cracking, but it peels off after about two or three weeks. I wonder how it helps with the actual stability of the foot and if the epoxy they used on Big Brown is the same thing my farrier uses.

[vineyridge]

I read somewhere that his front shoes cost $550 a pair.

Maybe breakdowns would decrease if someone could develop running shoes for race horses. :)

[royal militron]

If they are glue on shoes, that would run about right at $550... I know I used to have glue on shoes of some sort, not the same as those on my horse it it was about $250 or more sometimes, and that was just for 2 fronts.

[DickHertz]

Good post

[imissvixen]

I had something similar done to my TB about four years ago for a couple of months, front feet only. It was about $400 for both feet. It saved his life.

[Xctrygirl]

Ian Mckinlay, the original specialist that did Big Brown has done MANY of the horses that were in my string. (Couple owners decided all nails were bad no matter the make up and strength of the feet)

He is a wonderful man who lives and breathes for horse's feet.

His work is unparalleled and benefitted Scrappy while we were on the triple crown trail and afterwards.

He is very very good. And Tom is a very well known southern foot guru as well.

I'd feel very confident with these two guys working on my horse.

~Emily

[cloudyandcallie]

A couple of years ago some company was advertising in Practical Horseman with rubber shoes that were more like running shoes than those heavy rubber things that the carriage horses use.
My farrier wouldn't learn how to use them,even though I offered to buy lots of them.
wonder if anyone used them and if they were any good?

[Anne FS]

Wonder if down the road we'll be talking about other breakdowns and look in the pedigree to see BB? A very interesting idea that those feet won't stop him extensively breeding, and certainly won't help strengthen TBs. Look, with modern technology we can reconstruct hooves and he can run on those.

[souvenir]

AnneS I agree with your insightful post.

I'm also wondering: Many years ago, were there breakdowns on the race track like we see now? I'm saying many years ago, before 1960s say.
I recall reading somewhere (this forum maybe?) about Man O' War's trainer not racing him in the derby because of the tight turns. ? Also, I recall reading M.O. W. was raced at a later age. Am I correct in this?
After viewing the photos of Big Brown's feet, I fear he could break down at his next race. I hate having that feeling. And then he could breed and pass along his weak, thin-walled hooves.

[Anne FS]

ESPN was just talking about this.

I looked up Man O' War: he had 10 starts when he was 2 and 11 starts when he was 3, so lifetime 21 starts. Won 20 of them and ran 2nd once as a 2yo.

Yep, a little bit different in the strength and durability department.

Starts as a 2yo:

Grey Lag: 13 (1920)
Count Fleet: 15 starts as a 2yo (1942)
Citation: 9 starts (1947)
Bewitch: 10 starts at 2yo (1947). A filly. The next years: 6, 13, 11, and 15 starts. 55 total: 20W, 10P, 11S
Native Dancer: 9 (1952)
Sword Dancer: 14 (1958)
Kelso: 3 starts at 2yo (1959) but the following years: 9. 9, 12, 12, 11, 6 (1965), and 1 (1966)
Cicada: 16 (Champion filly at 2, 3 and 4; won the Kentucky Oaks, the Acorn, and the Mother Goose, the Beldame, and the Distaff)
Affectionately: 13 starts at 2, then 9, 15, and 15 over the following 3 years. A filly.
Northern Dancer: 9 (1963)
Dr. Fager: 5 (1966) but 9 as a 3yo and 8 as a 4yo
Riva Ridge: 9 (1971)
Secretariat: 9 in 1972
Forego: not raced at 2, but 18 starts as a 3yo (1973)
Affirmed: 9 (1977)
Spectacular Bid: 9 (1978)


Source: Thoroughbred Champions, Top 100 Racehorses of the 20th Century

[dressagetraks]

Man o'War also carried 130 pounds in races as a 2yo, several times.

I was thinking looking at this thread about Golden Broom, one of MOW's contemporaries. I recently reread Dorothy Ours' book on MOW (Excellent, highly recommended), and it mentioned him a good bit. He was brilliant speed, could even beat MOW in the works early on down on the farm, but had fragile feet, multiple foot problems, never truly realized his potential. Wonder what he would have done with epoxy shoes. Not that I think he would have been better than MOW anyway. There were fragile horses back then, too. Dorothy Ours also does mention a few breakdowns back then, at least one fatal that I seem to remember. It did happen. But I do think they're more fragile now.

[AHorseSomeDay]

I don't know much about racing but I am curious. Are the TBs bred today different in body size, bone structure etc than the ones of the past?

We were discussing this at my barn yesterday. I ride hunter/jumper and we have a couple OTTBs at the barn. One was a rescue, they found him starving but he looks great now and the other one is a fomer event horse who is built more like a WB than a TB.

[cloudyandcallie]

those were great hoof pix. nice to know that we aren't the only ones with epoxy holding our hooves together.

[Anne FS]

Man o'War also carried 130 pounds in races as a 2yo, several times.


Fillies:

Affectionately won the Vagrancy Handicap carrying 137 pounds. How much more was this than her competition? 17-28 pounds.

I couldn't find the weight but Bewitch did defeat Citation, btw. (LOL!)

Cicada won Handicaps carrying 128 and 127 pounds.

Certainly looks like racehorses were tougher and more durable all around.

[Kenike]

They had those pictures on TV the other day, but I can't remember if it was ESPN or NBC. Found it interesting as I've had and ridden a few who've had the same thing done. It works so very well!

But I'm not sure I'd want to be sending this guy to the breeding shed, despite his kind of freakish nature with the running/speed thing.

Which brings another point...on the way to the barn today I heard a news report (FoxNews or ABC) that was talking about the PETA thing and they specifically mentioned that many are saying to forget what PETA says and start looking at the inbreeding for speed. They actually spoke of the Native Dancer connection.
So, yes, I wonder if we'll be seeing a bad connection to BB in terms of horrible feet in a number of years.

[VirginiaBred]

Which brings another point...on the way to the barn today I heard a news report (FoxNews or ABC) that was talking about the PETA thing and they specifically mentioned that many are saying to forget what PETA says and start looking at the inbreeding for speed. They actually spoke of the Native Dancer connection.
So, yes, I wonder if we'll be seeing a bad connection to BB in terms of horrible feet in a number of years.


ABC's World News Tonight ran a story on the link to pedigree. I found it very interesting and was kind of glad that something of merit was covered, and not so much of the "sensational" side of a tragedy for a change.

[Frog]

Were they really tougher and more durable? Or was there just more reward or incentive then for being tougher and durable, and less for sheer speed? Could a horse, an owner, a trainer, a breeder, a stablehand get by with winning only a few big races, or were the biggest races still not enough, meaning that all the horses had to run more, so only the toughest made it to the top? More money in the races, compared to the shed?

The best horses have always run less than the rest, because they don't need to. Maybe now the prestige of a certain few races is so great (and arguably unmerited, depending on the competition) that the breeding shed reward has created a bubble of irresponsible breeding? The incentive in this (and every) business has always been money.

I think racing now is safer than it has ever been for horse and horseman alike. I also think breeding will cycle back to a tougher horse. I'm not much of a "back in the old days" type, but I think there could be a little too much "breed the best to the barely sound" and not enough "best to the best" right now. Once that stops ending in reward-and it will, and I think it has- we may see horses running a little more often, a little longer into their careers.

Back on topic- aren't those feet something else!!!

[jumpoff87]

My dad makes the epoxy used on the horses' feet (and i can't understand why i didn't get it from him for free when my horse needed it) but here are the technical concepts for any chemistry people:

Lord 403 /19 is used at a 3/1 ratio. We package it for "sporthorse" it is a great product, used for horse shoeing- off ratio to reduce the exotherm, (heat generated) so it doesn't hurt the horse, but still sets very quickly.
About 3 minutes, hence 403, there is a 406 and 410 with longer work
time. Lord is based in Erie PA, and to specifiy it to
this industry was donated to some college in PA due to the interest of
someone at Lord, from what I hear.

The accel contains the epoxy, but it is really a Methacrylate
adhesive with free radical cure. The epoxy is a secondary cure for high
temp strength and chemical resistance.

You can see a copper "clip" embedded in the glue; it is riveted to the shoe and is used only as a receptor for additional glue.

(Just some insight from a person who makes the product- I find it very interesting to know the chemistry and what bonds the glue to the hoof and everything.)

[Anne FS]

Were they really tougher and more durable? Or was there just more reward or incentive then for being tougher and durable, and less for sheer speed? Could a horse, an owner, a trainer, a breeder, a stablehand get by with winning only a few big races, or were the biggest races still not enough, meaning that all the horses had to run more, so only the toughest made it to the top? More money in the races, compared to the shed?

The best horses have always run less than the rest, because they don't need to.

Sure, there's more reward now in the shed. That's the point, why so many are saying that breeding is only for speed. Speed without strength and durability. That's one of the biggest arguments. And these are our "best" horses: George Washington, Afleet Alex, Invasor, Barbaro, Chelokee, Go For Wand, Ruffian, Eight Belles... Our BEST, and either died of injury or retired due to injury after hardly any races compared to the "best" previously.

So I'd say, yeah, they were really tougher and more durable.

For the "lesser lights" I'd agree with those who say the Americans being the only one to allow race-day medicating is a huge factor. I don't think the Invasors and Afleet Alexes are running sore, I think they're well taken care of, so with the big timers I think we've just succeeded in breeding fast, pretty UNdurable TBs. With the small-time claimers, I think there are a LOT of sore horses running at little tracks. I only worked 2 summers at racetracks, along with 2 other relatives working for 2 other trainers (top ones at that track, too), and uh, yeah, sore horses are sent out routinely.