Racing Kills the Filly

[cloudyandcallie]

Eight Belles was not "injured" as the TV people say. She was murdered by the racing industry which insists on running TBs too young on too hard surfaces too fast. Barbaro and Eight Belles and Ruffian and Go For Wand, wasn't she the one who broke a leg in the Breeder's Cub Distaff along with 2 other horses dying in Breeder's Cup races that day? And every day in training horses break their legs at tracks all over the country. But it is not convenient financially to wait till horses are 4 or 5, and train them on turf and run them on turf. So the racing industry will continue to kill and kill, and the unknowing public will be told about "missteps" and "injuries" and continue to rmanticize horse racing. My mare survived 3 yrs on the track, and amazingly was sound. Go watch horse racing for a few days at any track, and watch the horses "break down". Let's see, what if we bred horses with gasp, bigger bones, and not those llittle spindly legs, and if we waited till their bones developed and matured??? nahhh, racing cannot be bothered with that. :eek:

[Laurierace]

Take it somewhere else.

[zagafi]

You know, I don't say this lightly, but Shut. [edit] Up. Now is not the time for your [edit] agenda.

[skatepixie]

Yes, please do.

Horses die in other sports, they die giving birth, they die in the paddock, they die all kinds of ways. The filly seemed to be doing fine, even slightly after the wire. No one murdered her...murder implies something intentional.

[BLBGP]

While I don't share the OP's, um, passionate thought patterns, I do hate the argument "horses die all the time doing other stuff" as a justification for horses breaking down under saddle.

[Seaborne]

I'm feeling completely black about her loss too; it's horrendous, and my heart breaks for her. It was just sickening seeing her go down, and I'm wholly through hearing all the justifications racing proponents put forth for running youngsters. I'm done with even watching racing again, let alone supporting it in any way. To my mind, it's not defensible a moment longer, especially for anyone who claims to love horses.

Eight Belles' death isn't going to bode well for the sport--this was the most public of breakdowns, no matter how the mouthpieces try to euphemize it--and she's simply the latest innocent victim surrendered to the teeth of a remorseless industry.

[merrygoround]

Go away!! I'm busy.

[Paragon]

What a horrible person. Go play somewhere else.

[Showpony]

While I don't share the OP's, um, passionate thought patterns, I do hate the argument "horses die all the time doing other stuff" as a justification for horses breaking down under saddle.

I absolutely agree with you 100%! I hate that arguement too! I do somewhat agree with the OP too though.

It is so sad that poor filly ran her heart out and this happened to her.

I have to admit my first words when they showed the filly lying on the track was "I hate racing!"

I used to have racehorses until I got tired of seeing them breakdown (ours didn't but to many others did).:no:

[Seaborne]

I should add as a usual forum lurker here that I'm 43, have been involved with horses all my life, and rode extensively as a Jr/A/O, mostly on much-loved OOT horses. It's them I'm thinking of tonight.

[Foxtrot's]

While I wouldn't put it so forcefully, I do feel saddened. Eight Belles was nearly l7 h and only just had her third birthday. It is a lot to ask for a long race, and I do think that raw talent is exploited by the racing industry. Although at this moment I can only offer my sympathy to her connections at such a tragedy. Those mares have so much heart.

[Laurierace]

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. Take the Op with you please.

[Seaborne]

You know, I'm usually a lurker on this forum but I have to say from the heart that I am completely appalled at some of the replies on this thread, and at 43 I'm pretty hard to shock. I think these responses speak for themselves. Whether you agree with the original poster or not, whatever happened to manners and at least respecting another person's opinion? I feel truly, truly sad for the future of our sport tonight.

[Beverley]

While I don't share the OP's, um, passionate thought patterns, I do hate the argument "horses die all the time doing other stuff" as a justification for horses breaking down under saddle.

My opinion of the OP based on that post is not high. I'm being polite.:)

Nobody JUSTIFIES horses breaking down. Everybody hates it. The industry does what it can, but accidents are still going to happen.

For those who say they are done with racing- are you done with driving cars, too? Because, despite continual safety improvements over the years, lots of people die in cars every day.

Ah, yes, you'll say, well, that's our choice, the 'poor race horse' has no choice. To which I respond, LOOK AT THE HORSES! Do they look unhappy to you? Not to me! Certainly not Eight Belles in the piece earlier today where her trainer was moseying around the track, into the paddock, etc with her.

[Appsolute]

I am done with racing also. My only support will be buying OTTBs.

I am questioning a return to eventing (not that I would be doing any thing over prelim).

But racing.. I will not watch, I will discourage all I know from supporting horse racing in the US. This includes how I will vote in elections in CA, there are often many gambling inactivates that effect horse racing (voting for indian gaming often hurts the tracks). I will be doing what I can with my dollar and my vote to bring an end to racing.

[Maude]

Anyone who can defend the racing industry after this is no horseman or horse lover. "It happens" is NO EXCUSE!

[zagafi]

You know, I'm usually a lurker on this forum but I have to say from the heart that I am completely appalled at some of the replies on this thread, and at 43 I'm pretty hard to shock. I think these responses speak for themselves. Whether you agree with the original poster or not, whatever happened to manners and at least respecting another person's opinion? I feel truly, truly sad for the future of our sport tonight.

You mean that same respect shown for racing and the filly who died? NOBODY is defending what happened. But making claims that Eight Belles was "murdered" is inflammatory and is meant to be incititatory. I'm sure my response is what prompted yours, and normally, I'd probably agree. But this time, I don't much care about "manners". I've had it with crap like this--it's not productive, offers no solution, and only serves to stir things up.

[WalkInTheWoods]

I agree with the OP. After spending over 30 yrs in the race industry, my feelings are that there is little concern for the longevity of the horses beyond hoping they stay sound enough to make people $$ or sound enough to limp around on a breeding farm. Not every owner or trainer is of that mindset and some actually get rid of horses before they are pushed to breaking down. When they see a horse is not strong or capable enough for a racing career they give them a chance to excel in another discipline. But the name of the game is race them while you can. Trainers sometimes get pushed by owners who want that horse to win at any cost. What is so sad about this is that it's the horses with the big hearts that push themselves hard enough to break down. Its all about greed and breeders awards and racing young horses who should still be out in pastures running, playing and growing. I detest 2 yr old racing. And why couldnt the KY Derby be for four year olds ?

[Cherry]

I'm with Seaborne and Walk In The Woods....

Instead of saying "stuff happens" and writing it off as "normal" how about actually working on a solution to the problem (horses dying before their time on the race track) instead of ripping a new one for someone who obviously has very strong feelings about what just happened to a horse who was racing at the time of the incident.....

I don't think people would get so upset with the messenger unless deep down in their hearts they felt there was some truth to what the person said.... :uhoh:

But the venemous responses might account for why no headway is made in finding a solution....

[Sing Mia Song]

Instead of saying "stuff happens" and writing it off as "normal" how about actually working on a solution to the problem (horses dying before their time on the race track) instead of ripping a new one for someone who obviously has very strong feelings about what just happened to a horse who was racing at the time of the incident.....

I could insert some different words into your post:

Instead of saying "horse racing is cruel" and writing it off as "murder" how about actually working on a solution to the problem (horses dying before their time on the race track) instead of ripping a new one for someone who obviously has very strong feelings about the job they do every day making sure their horses have everything they need and planning their conditioning program to ensure that every horse in their charge comes back safe and sound .....

How about the OP actually reads the research on the MD shin program and other studies that point to increased breakdowns and injuries in horses who do not start at 2?

How about instead of taking every opportunity to be incendiary, the OP actually spends some time at a race track, or talks to trainers to find out what the status quo actually is before going off half-cocked?

[Anne FS]

Nobody JUSTIFIES horses breaking down. Everybody hates it. The industry does what it can,...

I think this is what people disagree with. A lot of people don't think the industry is doing all it can. C'mon, didn't you get a twinge when prior to the race they were talking about how huge Eight Belles was, and that she was maybe bigger than Winning Colors, and the other one said, yes, she's bigger, but she doesn't have as much weight, she's taller. And I'm sure there were people who thought omgosh, 17hh and just turned 3.....and about to pound down a racetrack in a pack of 20 horses...


For those who say they are done with racing- are you done with driving cars, too? Because, despite continual safety improvements over the years, lots of people die in cars every day.

Ah, yes, you'll say, well, that's our choice, the 'poor race horse' has no choice. To which I respond, LOOK AT THE HORSES! Do they look unhappy to you?

That's why it's so crushing. The horses are happy because they're well cared for. But even being well cared for, the "poor race horse" does have NO choice. They're happy until both their ankles break and they fall to the ground.

Look, I agree with zagafi that the OP worded the post specifically to be inflammatory. But that doesn't negate the argument, which is that there is disagreement that the industry is "doing all it can" and the you-still-drive-cars argument is totally not the same thing.

And as inflammatory as the post was, you can just look at some of the other threads and see all the people saying "that's it, I'm done." This was hard. And it's not just racing. Go to the front page of this week's COH and the first two items are the euths of The Quiet Man and Frodo Baggins, both casualties of this year's Rolex. Three big, wonderful "well cared for" horses all dying within one week! C'mon, it's denial to not think all this shook up an awful lot of people.

Edited to add: Looking further down the same page of the online COH, two of the other items are the euthanization of Task Force (Southern Pines Horse Trials) and TWO MORE horse fatalities at Red Hills. Again, not racing, but all this piled up together in a VERY brief period of time is a big red flag. I've been with everybody else saying, it's just a run of bad luck, but as the years roll on the the deaths don't decrease.......pick ANY other sport involving animals, ANY one (besides bullfighting) and think if there were deaths in the biggest, most popular events in that sport, what would happen?

[Kenike]

Sing Mia, I think the OP is just bitter against many things. It sort of comes across as all of us who are in the sporthorse business are cruel murderers.

I don't think any of us are saying "oh, it's okay, it happens all the time and is normal," then just passing it off. We're saying this sucks, is horrid, shouldn't happen, and should be further studied to make improvements. A good deal of that DOES lie in the breeder's responsibility, but people like the OP just want to take aim and call all of the industry murderous fiends.

[BLBGP]

Sing Mia, I think the OP is just bitter against many things. It sort of comes across as all of us who are in the sporthorse business are cruel murderers.

I don't think any of us are saying "oh, it's okay, it happens all the time and is normal," then just passing it off. We're saying this sucks, is horrid, shouldn't happen, and should be further studied to make improvements. A good deal of that DOES lie in the breeder's responsibility, but people like the OP just want to take aim and call all of the industry murderous fiends.

Actually, there is a quote on the Eight Belles thread saying that although this is tragic, "ITs the nature of the sport....Horses break down, and die. it happens more than anyone sees or hears about it. You not watching it is not going to stop it from happening." To me, that means some people are ok with status quo and don't think it can be or needs to be improved. And that is sad.

[Kenike]

well, this is the first time I've alerted the mods. I don't care so much about the content, but the double posting just to start trouble was pretty dumb.

[Beverley]

Actually, there is a quote on the Eight Belles thread saying that although this is tragic, "ITs the nature of the sport....Horses break down, and die. it happens more than anyone sees or hears about it. You not watching it is not going to stop it from happening." To me, that means some people are ok with status quo and don't think it can be or needs to be improved. And that is sad.

I think that you are misinterpreting the intent of that statement. There are a great many people working every day to make racing safer for horses and for the jockeys. Nobody is okay with the status quo. Everybody supports improvements in welfare and safety. What they are is frustrated when unreasonable and uninformed people say that nothing is being done!

I will continue to support racing. And I remember how sick to my stomach I was the day that Ruffian broke down. And I will continue to hope for safety improvements- recognizing full well that horses will continue to break down, anyway. Contrary to the way our society seems to think today- that somebody is to be blamed for each thing that goes wrong- accidents do happen in spite of best intentions and best efforts.

[Kenike]

Exactly what Beverley said

(except for the Ruffian part....I was only a couple months old then)

[LegoMyMego]

Eight Belles was not "injured" as the TV people say. She was murdered by the racing industry which insists on running TBs too young on too hard surfaces too fast. Barbaro and Eight Belles and Ruffian and Go For Wand, wasn't she the one who broke a leg in the Breeder's Cub Distaff along with 2 other horses dying in Breeder's Cup races that day? And every day in training horses break their legs at tracks all over the country. But it is not convenient financially to wait till horses are 4 or 5, and train them on turf and run them on turf. So the racing industry will continue to kill and kill, and the unknowing public will be told about "missteps" and "injuries" and continue to romanticize horse racing. My mare survived 3 yrs on the track, and amazingly was sound. Go watch horse racing for a few days at any track, and watch the horses "break down". Let's see, what if we bred horses with gasp, bigger bones, and not those llittle spindly legs, and if we waited till their bones developed and matured??? nahhh, racing cannot be bothered with that. :eek:

I couldn't agree with you more.

These poor babies die so that people can win money.

They say, Oh we can't wait until they're older because then they won't run as fast and it won't be as exciting....plus, it costs too much money to raise a horse until they are 5 only to realize that they won't make it on the track......

I F-ING HATE horse racing and all the people that cheer it on.

[2 tbs]

well, this is the first time I've alerted the mods. I don't care so much about the content, but the double posting just to start trouble was pretty dumb.

Me too. Sent my little alert happily!

However, I do care a bit about the content but not enough to get involved with someone who CLEARLY has no clue what they are talking about. :(

[Auventera Two]

The OP has a right to be furious and upset. I admit that when I see "bad stuff" on tv I just shrug it off and go on. But when I saw Eight Belles break down I choked. We've raised a lot of babies on this farm, and I know how BABYISH they are at 2. They are just punkins, playing in their field, sleeping in the sun, and doing goofy goofy baby things. To see 2 year olds at the absolute pinacle of their career makes my heart ache.

I did an 11 mile run on my endurance horse today and she felt so fit and strong. I never urged her at all. I just let the canter and gallop strides unfold under me and it's such a feeling. But at 2, she was nowhere even CLOSE to being ready to gallop under the weight of a rider. No way. No how. I didn't sit on her till 3 1/2.

After watching the race I had to go out in the field and hug my mares and cry a couple tears. I actually felt sick thinking about that breakdown today. The waste of such an incredible baby filly is heartwrenching. I have loved our babies so much and enjoyed watching them grow, and mature.

Our OTTB died young last year with more problems than Carter had liver pills. That poor mare. She had over 40 starts and quite an impressive record. But her bones and feet were a nightmare. She was a nervous MESS. She would suck her tongue and shake/sweat profusely at any tiny thing that upset her. Her poor brain was cooked. It took years for her to "come down" from the track. What the industry does to these horses is absolutely beyond my comprehension.

I agree that a good running horse has it in their heart and soul to run. I don't ask my endurance horse to run. She just offers it because it's in her blood and her heart. And BECAUSE of this, it is up to US, as their guardians to be intelligent enough to know when to ask for all they've got, and when to let them be babies.

[Artful]

nobody likes a dead horse. I mourn Eight Belles, and Barbaro, and Pine Island, etc. I don't like the fact that it's getting difficult to watch a big day of racing lately.
However, let's try to keep this in perspective.
Not trying to start a flaming war here, but let's remember that in sheer numbers, the number of TBs that have to be put down each year because of breakdowns on the track pales in comparison to the number of QH and other stock-type breeds that go to slaughter every year because they are overbred.
There is enough blame to go around in every discipline, and every breed. In this particular case---I think the connections of Eight Belles gave her the best care and training possible. It was a freak accident, heartbreaking as it is.

[LarkspurCO]

What troubled me most was how the filly's death was just sort of glossed over in the news coverage. If this had been the Super Bowl and one of the star players had dropped dead on the field, it would have been a huge story. The filly's breakdown and euthanasia was just brushed off as "ill-fated." She was just an animal after all. And there were all those hats and dresses to photograph.

I am sure that many people in racing were truly devastated by her death, and I know many of the people in racing care deeply about their charges. Still, I am disillusioned. And very sad.

[Flypony]

They are born and bred to run, they love it . If not for racing they would not be. If you don't like it don't watch. Go save a seal or a tree.

[Sassenach]

I couldn't agree with you more.

These poor babies die so that people can win money.

They say, Oh we can't wait until they're older because then they won't run as fast and it won't be as exciting....plus, it costs too much money to raise a horse until they are 5 only to realize that they won't make it on the track......

I F-ING HATE horse racing and all the people that cheer it on.

Then get out of this board and go away.

Nothing I hate more than the naysayers flocking to tragedies - be it eventing or racing. Something disastrous happens and suddenly we have tons of people running over to put their .02 in, criticize, and point fingers. The people who 'only turn on the TV to watch the Derby/Rolex/*insert big name event*.

I love this sport. I love the horses, the people, the stories behind them all. The hopes and dreams that are such a part of this sport beyond any other. Above all I love the horses who run their hearts out for the sheer joy of it.

So go take your negativity somewhere else. We - the people involved, those who love the horses, the fans, the connections especially - are all hurting over this. We do not need people like you coming over.

[wlrottge]

....before going off half-cocked?

Half??? More like 1/100th........

I grew up in KY. I have EARLY memories of the KY derby... parties, watching it on TV, going to Lexington and seeing the farms.

Sadly the race horse economy will not be stopped. We were watching the race while at a restaurant and it made me sick when I read the work "euthanized" in the close captioning just after the race.

Instead of being negative and spewing your vile opinions, how about focusing that energy on helping?

[Granada]

I wish people like the OP would not make blanket opinions that simplify that which is not and cannot be simple.

RIP Eight Belles. She was a beautiful filly that ran her heart out today. It's obvious that she will be greatly missed by those who knew and loved her and my condolences go out to them.

And as an avid Football fan I have to disagree with this comment:
What troubled me most was how the filly's death was just sort of glossed over in the news coverage. If this had been the Super Bowl and one of the star players had dropped dead on the field, it would have been a huge story.

Umm, no it wasn't glossed over IMO. They had the vet comment right away, they continued to mention her even right before the winner's ceremony. And I saw a few serious injuries in football this year and they ALWAYS cut to commercial and keep the news veiled and only gave brief updates on sportscenter, so although I'm upset too, and would like something to blame when things like this happen, I have to dissagree that the media "covered it up".

[LarkspurCO]

I wish people like the OP would not make blanket opinions that simplify that which is not and cannot be simple.

RIP Eight Belles. She was a beautiful filly that ran her heart out today. It's obvious that she will be greatly missed by those who knew and loved her and my condolences go out to them.

And as an avid Football fan I have to disagree with this comment:


Umm, no it wasn't glossed over IMO. They had the vet comment right away, they continued to mention her even right before the winner's ceremony. And I saw a few serious injuries in football this year and they ALWAYS cut to commercial and keep the news veiled and only gave brief updates on sportscenter, so although I'm upset too, and would like something to blame when things like this happen, I have to dissagree that the media "covered it up".

Umm, well IMO opinion, yes, it was glossed over during the NBC coverage. When they read the final results the announcer referred to Five Belles as "the ill-fated filly" that placed second. The next reference to her was "the injured filly." I did NOT say the media covered it up.

If a Super Bowl player died on the field during the game, or seconds after the winning play, there would be some serious coverage right then and there, and I bet a delayed trophy ceremony as well.

[Equilibrium]

Yes, please do.

Horses die in other sports, they die giving birth, they die in the paddock, they die all kinds of ways. The filly seemed to be doing fine, even slightly after the wire. No one murdered her...murder implies something intentional.


Couldn't agree with this more. I have lost 2 foals in 2 years and quite wonder how they ever make it to racing. Every one of the horses we have sent out over the last few years come home sound without a pimple on them during the winter.

I can maybe understand the OP's anger and he/she has a right to post what she wants, but it isn't so black and white.

I feel for the connections of Eight Belles. She was an amazing filly.

Terri

[LarkspurCO]

They are born and bred to run, they love it . If not for racing they would not be. If you don't like it don't watch. Go save a seal or a tree.

I keep hearing people say how the horses love to race. I call bullshit. That's just the kind of statement that fluff-bunny bleeding hearts always get called on for being anthropomorphic. You can't possibly know that a horse loves racing. How do you know he wouldn't rather be loafing around eating grass all day? They are big dumb animals and they are programmed to cooperate. It has nothing to do with "love." They're just trying to get along and survive.

Do horses appear to enjoy running? I'd say yes. Do they often appear to adapt to the handling and lifestyle of the track? It would seem so. But then, what options do they have? Please spare me the whole "love" part though. If the horses "loved" it so much, then why do almost all of them have ulcers?

My OTTB certainly appears to love galloping in the field. But I honestly can't tell you why he does it, or whether he does it because he loves it. I have a sense that he didn't love the things they did to him at the track. The lip chains, the ear twitching, the shanking, the needles, the stiff sore joints.

If I had to guess, I would think he would have preferred to stand around with a bunch of mares eating grass. But then again, if it weren't for racing, he wouldn't be here, so let's all just pretend there aren't any problems.

[Aimee Thanatogenus]

You know, I'm usually a lurker on this forum but I have to say from the heart that I am completely appalled at some of the replies on this thread, and at 43 I'm pretty hard to shock. I think these responses speak for themselves. Whether you agree with the original poster or not, whatever happened to manners and at least respecting another person's opinion? I feel truly, truly sad for the future of our sport tonight.

I agree. Instead of circling the wagons, resolve to change the sport.

Poor filly. She didn't deserve that. Makes you wonder if the industry even regards them as horses and not machines.

[I'm EBO]

In light of Eight Belles' death, which is merely the latest fatal breakdown, I wonder if the US Racing World would consider not starting the horses so young? I think it would be an immensely popular move (speaking for the public, not trainers/jockeys/owners), and it isn't without precedent. European racehorses are started later, plus they run almost exclusively (or maybe all the time) on turf, which is apparently safer.

I love to watch horse racing as long as nothing bad happens to the horses. I'd be a bigger fan if the industry could make changes that would benefit the horses rather than the bankrolls.

[jumper11]

What troubled me most was how the filly's death was just sort of glossed over in the news coverage. If this had been the Super Bowl and one of the star players had dropped dead on the field, it would have been a huge story. The filly's breakdown and euthanasia was just brushed off as "ill-fated." She was just an animal after all. And there were all those hats and dresses to photograph.

I am sure that many people in racing were truly devastated by her death, and I know many of the people in racing care deeply about their charges. Still, I am disillusioned. And very sad.

You are comparing a horse's death to that of a human's? wow. I think it's getting plenty of media coverage what more are you looking for?

[jumper11]

I keep hearing people say how the horses love to race. I call bullshit. That's just the kind of statement that fluff-bunny bleeding hearts always get called on for being anthropomorphic. You can't possibly know that a horse loves racing. How do you know he wouldn't rather be loafing around eating grass all day? They are big dumb animals and they are programmed to cooperate. It has nothing to do with "love." They're just trying to get along and survive.

Do horses appear to enjoy running? I'd say yes. Do they often appear to adapt to the handling and lifestyle of the track? It would seem so. But then, what options do they have? Please spare me the whole "love" part though. If the horses "loved" it so much, then why do almost all of them have ulcers?

My OTTB certainly appears to love galloping in the field. But I honestly can't tell you why he does it, or whether he does it because he loves it. I have a sense that he didn't love the things they did to him at the track. The lip chains, the ear twitching, the shanking, the needles, the stiff sore joints.

If I had to guess, I would think he would have preferred to stand around with a bunch of mares eating grass. But then again, if it weren't for racing, he wouldn't be here, so let's all just pretend there aren't any problems.

Your OTTB wouldn't be here if it weren't for racing (like you said). It doesn't matter if they love it or not, they were bred to do it. It's their owners responsibility to make sure they are taken care of. Bottom line these horses are bred for racing, if you eliminate that you also eliminate the need for your precious OTTBs'. What are you going to say that you "rescued" if there is no more horse racing?

[slc2]

I actually thought the media treated the tragedy as it did out of respect. I also thought all the people who cared for the filly and worked with her would prefer not to have the world see her be euthenized.

There is, for sure, an element of not letting the public see an injured horse thrash around, and one can paint that as hiding the truth, or as respect for the animal and the sensibilities of the crowd. There already was one lady who came here to say how much it upset her young child...it would have been much worse, I feel, to see the animal struggling when down.

I'm not sure anyone needs to see all the horror in living color to realize it's going on. People know. There's such an odd tendency these days to want to see something in its most lurid form...is that really so much better?

[cmannphoto]

I know you feel badly and wonder what you could have done, but stuff just happens.

The OP posted this on another thread and I have to say to them, STUFF JUSTS HAPPENS. It does not do any good to pour salt in the wound.

Everybody who knows horses knows that you can’t force these animals to do things that they don’t want to do, especially reaching this level of competition. I have photographed horses for over 25 years and have seen the good, the bad and the ugly. After last week at Rolex several people have asked me about the horses being “forced” to compete. The same holds true with Eventing and other equine sports. You can’t force them to compete at these levels. They have made it this far because the horse enjoys what they are doing.


My thoughts and prayers go out to the connections.

Charles Mann
Charles Mann Photography

[JaneeneSings]

Poor filly. She didn't deserve that. Makes you wonder if the industry even regards them as horses and not machines.

Why else would they refer to injuries as "breakdowns?" My car broke down on the freeway. I pulled into the breakdown lane when my car stalled. Cars? Horses? They're both easily replaced when they break down....

[Auventera Two]

I keep hearing people say how the horses love to race. I call bullshit. That's just the kind of statement that fluff-bunny bleeding hearts always get called on for being anthropomorphic.

NOT TRUE. I don't support flat track racing at all because I think they're raced too young. But I do believe 110% that running horses truly do LOVE to run and are very competitive to their core. Just ask my endurance horse how she loves to run! :eek: I haul her out every weekend to a trail to train and she has never run from me out in the field. Most of the time she trots right up to me, and on the way into the barn she's trotting in place and throwing her head. She gets right on the trailer without any hesitation. And from the second my butt hits the saddle, she has a big springy stride and cocky attitude and she's ready to rock. She knows those trails and she loves them.

I have ridden with several horses on training rides who did NOT love to run. They were sour and angry. Some people ride with a crop to keep them going. Some people have to get the horse behind another horse to help "pull them along" down the trail. My horse wants to be a front runner. She doesn't want ANYBODY in front her. It's an obstacle I have to overcome with her because she'd run herself until she were exhausted if it were her choice. She's a horse that would very easily be soured and ruined in the wrong hands because she has so MUCH heart and so much love for running. Maybe in 5 or 10 years my horse will tell me that she's had enough. And if she does, then I'll retire her to pleasure trail or something.

Race horses that don't love to run flunk out and they get sold after just a couple of races. I don't believe for a second that horses have to be forced to run. They truly LOVE it. But, because this passion is so deep in their blood, it is up to us to manage it properly and not allow them to kill themselves trying.

We selectively breed animals for a purpose. This is why my Weimaraner is fiercely protective of her family, and my hound couldn't give a rip less about us. Two different breeds - two different jobs - two different personalities. Horses are no different.

[Swale01]

Flame suit zipped, but I feel like this is something that SOMEONE needs to say.

I, too, am crushed by what happened to Eight Belles...but unlike a whole lot of people who want to canonize her connections and wrap them in sympathy, I am furious with them. I do a handicapping sheet that I circulate to a rather large requestor list as a hobby, and in my sheet I actually said that I bet she'd be ruined as a racehorse after this and might never race again. And it turned out so much worse than even I thought - because I underestimated her HEART, but not her body...

This filly was not properly prepared for the Derby. Period. She was the only HORSE in the field of 20 who had never even attempted a 1 and 1/8 distance. She had never faced Grade 1 Stakes competition. She had never run against colts. And they throw her in to this 20 horse madness, and she just outran what her body could handle. Recall that Winning Colors and Genuine Risk had both run against colts before their Derby attempt - and beat them - at longer distances. We owners of thoroughbreds know that there is a burden on us as owners not to overface them, because they are likely to try what we ask, wise or doable or not, with the work ethic they have that seems a part of their genetics. Her connections did not look out for her here - they wanted a Derby horse, already had their Oaks starter, so they sacrificed a great filly to get one. As all this sympathy pours out for them, I just feel anger towards them for doing so wrong by her.

[hundredacres]

You know, I'm usually a lurker on this forum but I have to say from the heart that I am completely appalled at some of the replies on this thread, and at 43 I'm pretty hard to shock. I think these responses speak for themselves. Whether you agree with the original poster or not, whatever happened to manners and at least respecting another person's opinion? I feel truly, truly sad for the future of our sport tonight.


I feel the same way. I read someones comment that they feel sad for the racing industry because it's open for all to see - while the QH's and TWH's and all the other tragedies that happen in the horse world (and in backyards) go unnoticed because the general public is not privvy to it.

Sad day indeed.

[hundredacres]

Flame suit zipped, but I feel like this is something that SOMEONE needs to say.

I, too, am crushed by what happened to Eight Belles...but unlike a whole lot of people who want to canonize her connections and wrap them in sympathy, I am furious with them. I do a handicapping sheet that I circulate to a rather large requestor list as a hobby, and in my sheet I actually said that I bet she'd be ruined as a racehorse after this and might never race again. And it turned out so much worse than even I thought - because I underestimated her HEART, but not her body...

This filly was not properly prepared for the Derby. Period. She was the only HORSE in the field of 20 who had never even attempted a 1 and 1/8 distance. She had never faced Grade 1 Stakes competition. She had never run against colts. And they throw her in to this 20 horse madness, and she just outran what her body could handle. Recall that Winning Colors and Genuine Risk had both run against colts before their Derby attempt - and beat them - at longer distances. We owners of thoroughbreds know that there is a burden on us as owners not to overface them, because they are likely to try what we ask, wise or doable or not, with the work ethic they have that seems a part of their genetics. Her connections did not look out for her here - they wanted a Derby horse, already had their Oaks starter, so they sacrificed a great filly to get one. As all this sympathy pours out for them, I just feel anger towards them for doing so wrong by her.

And your post sheds a whole new, and even dimmer light for me. I am even more sorry now. We sure as hell can't reject the exploitation argument......I LOVE horse racing and always have. But this picture isn't right anymore.

[SEPowell]

Oh brother, so many opinions. I wonder what the spin would be if tbs could talk.

[Frog]

Swale, in my opinion, none of the horses are prepared for the Derby, Big Brown least of all. I don't think they gallop nearly enough. But then again, they are all so fragile or the tracks so fast, that they can't get enough work in them or they would break down before the race. Big Brown has raced 4 times now, and the media is talking about the Triple Crown. I don't know how he can hold up to two more demanding races in such a short time, when he has never done it before and isn't really conditioned past the Derby. But if he had been rigorously conditioned or raced prior to the Derby, he probably wouldn't have made it to the starting gate. The horse I keep waiting for is one that is consistently in good shape (and therefore sound), working and racing at the highest level. There aren't too many. The attitude now seems to be get them to the Derby on as little work and racing as possible, then go ahead and throw them in the Preakness without much work in between.
I don't think Eight Belles was any less prepared than the rest of the field. I had a win ticket on her because of her number of starts and her win streak. I don't think running against colts makes a difference. Horses being herd animals, there biologically isn't any reason for colts to outrun fillies.

[slc2]

Probably 'Wheee! here comes the feed cart!' and 'Wheee, time to go on the race track and try to catch up with the other horses'.

A horse has the intelligence of a 2 year old child. A 2 year old child doesn't regulate the racing industry or decide when horses should run.

However, I don't agree that the filly was improperly prepared. She looked very good coming into the race.

[Just My Style]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swale01
Flame suit zipped, but I feel like this is something that SOMEONE needs to say.

I, too, am crushed by what happened to Eight Belles...but unlike a whole lot of people who want to canonize her connections and wrap them in sympathy, I am furious with them. I do a handicapping sheet that I circulate to a rather large requestor list as a hobby, and in my sheet I actually said that I bet she'd be ruined as a racehorse after this and might never race again. And it turned out so much worse than even I thought - because I underestimated her HEART, but not her body...

This filly was not properly prepared for the Derby. Period. She was the only HORSE in the field of 20 who had never even attempted a 1 and 1/8 distance. She had never faced Grade 1 Stakes competition. She had never run against colts. And they throw her in to this 20 horse madness, and she just outran what her body could handle. Recall that Winning Colors and Genuine Risk had both run against colts before their Derby attempt - and beat them - at longer distances. We owners of thoroughbreds know that there is a burden on us as owners not to overface them, because they are likely to try what we ask, wise or doable or not, with the work ethic they have that seems a part of their genetics. Her connections did not look out for her here - they wanted a Derby horse, already had their Oaks starter, so they sacrificed a great filly to get one. As all this sympathy pours out for them, I just feel anger towards them for doing so wrong by her.


Exactly how I feel. Thank you. I used to work in the racing industry and saw this on so many levels. If you don't believe it, check any CANTER site and see how many horses are coming off injuries. Most of them. And it's not just racing, but all horse disciplines- but that is a discussion for another day. Anyway, my heart just breaks for that poor filly and I feel anger for those who were supposed to look out for her a little bit better. Accidents do happens, but I think in this instance the accident could have been avoided by either different training or flat our deciding that this race was just not the right fit for her. It cost her her life.

[slc2]

One thing though, the horses with mild injuries that come off the track, very often after healing up are fine for less demanding sport. Most people don't have a lot of galloping and jumping in mind when they buy a horse - a few hunter classes over low jumps, a few flat classes a year, or a training level dressage program. That's the main thing - the mild injuries very often can heal up and the horse can do something else.

I think our mistake here in the USA is the fast tracks. I really think this can be improved alot, and that injuries can be reduced. They will never entirely disappear and there will always be some bad breakdowns. But I think the situation can be improved and made much better.

[jme]

Swale- I agree. I was worried too. I wasn't going to watch the Derby. I did and shut it off right after I found out that the poor filly went down. I just had a bad feeling that in a field of 20, something bad was going to happen to someone. It just breaks my heart. I wish they would quit running babies.


Flame suit zipped, but I feel like this is something that SOMEONE needs to say.

I, too, am crushed by what happened to Eight Belles...but unlike a whole lot of people who want to canonize her connections and wrap them in sympathy, I am furious with them. I do a handicapping sheet that I circulate to a rather large requestor list as a hobby, and in my sheet I actually said that I bet she'd be ruined as a racehorse after this and might never race again. And it turned out so much worse than even I thought - because I underestimated her HEART, but not her body...

This filly was not properly prepared for the Derby. Period. She was the only HORSE in the field of 20 who had never even attempted a 1 and 1/8 distance. She had never faced Grade 1 Stakes competition. She had never run against colts. And they throw her in to this 20 horse madness, and she just outran what her body could handle. Recall that Winning Colors and Genuine Risk had both run against colts before their Derby attempt - and beat them - at longer distances. We owners of thoroughbreds know that there is a burden on us as owners not to overface them, because they are likely to try what we ask, wise or doable or not, with the work ethic they have that seems a part of their genetics. Her connections did not look out for her here - they wanted a Derby horse, already had their Oaks starter, so they sacrificed a great filly to get one. As all this sympathy pours out for them, I just feel anger towards them for doing so wrong by her.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Swale - i could not agree more.

For those of you who came to this thread to attack the OP, methinks thou dost protest too much. And you ask for constructive comments. Okay here's one. Stop racing babies.

[slc2]

not so.

the term 'breakdown' came well in advance of any automobiles.

It was used on horses first, and refers to the ankles 'breaking down' so they rest on the ground, or are not held up in a normal position, such as when the suspensory apparatus of the legs fails, as it often does in race track injuries,, due to a fracture of the sesamoids, tendon or ligament injuries or similar injuries .

i am not so sure 'racing babies' is the problem, they are broke quite some time before they are raced and they are trained early, there's a whole accelerated schedule overall.

but i've also heard vets say a great many horses that they see break down (not in the derby class i don't think) are unsuitable for racing and should not have been trained for it. obvious conformation faults.

[gazenna]

Paragon,,,,,,Who are you calling a terrible person?

[horsedaughter]

Belle's death was surely a tragic thing, but it is not like horses die every time there's a race. Unfortunately, the Derby has been rather "unlucky" lately in terms of injured horses, and I'm assuming this spurred the OP's rant. :no:

[Galileo1998]

European racehorses are started later, plus they run almost exclusively (or maybe all the time) on turf, which is apparently safer.

They do race almost exclusively on turf, but they are not started any later. What gave you that idea?

Yesterday the 2000 Guineas was run at Newmarket, 1 mile for three year olds.

The winner, Henrythenavigator had his first start on May 6th of his two year old year and ran 4 times as a two year old.

The second, New Approach has his first start on July 15th of his two year old year and ran 5 times as a two year old.

The third, Stubbs Art has his first start on May 24th of his two year old year and ran 6 times as a two year old.

The only horse in the race that didn't start as a two year old was a 250/1 outsider that finished 14th of the 15 starters.

The race before the Guineas was a Group 3 race for fillies and mares ages 4 and up. All but one horse in that race also raced as two year olds.

[up-at-5]

While I don't share the OP's, um, passionate thought patterns, I do hate the argument "horses die all the time doing other stuff" as a justification for horses breaking down under saddle.



Word.

[hundredacres]

Belle's death was surely a tragic thing, but it is not like horses die every time there's a race. Unfortunately, the Derby has been rather "unlucky" lately in terms of injured horses, and I'm assuming this spurred the OP's rant. :no:

Race horses do die almost daily...the Triple Crown races are once a year and it's the race the public is familiar with. While the OP comment is extreme, it isn't something that should be ignored. This death is NOT bad luck...it is the nature of the sport. And that is another agrument altogether.


http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/ UK
http://scrollsequus.blogspot.com/ USA
http://fallenracehorsesaustralia.blogspot.com/ Australia

These lists are NOT exhaustive. These are only the horses that somebody made note of. I know I read about horses dying at a lesser known track and the exercise rider posts about it, or the groom...otherwise it goes unnoticed.

[Linny]

Flame suit zipped, but I feel like this is something that SOMEONE needs to say.


This filly was not properly prepared for the Derby. Period. She was the only HORSE in the field of 20 who had never even attempted a 1 and 1/8 distance. She had never faced Grade 1 Stakes competition. She had never run against colts. And they throw her in to this 20 horse madness, and she just outran what her body could handle. Recall that Winning Colors and Genuine Risk had both run against colts before their Derby attempt - and beat them - at longer distances. We owners of thoroughbreds know that there is a burden on us as owners not to overface them, because they are likely to try what we ask, wise or doable or not, with the work ethic they have that seems a part of their genetics. Her connections did not look out for her here - they wanted a Derby horse, already had their Oaks starter, so they sacrificed a great filly to get one. As all this sympathy pours out for them, I just feel anger towards them for doing so wrong by her.

I defy you to find a better horeman that Larry Jones. Several horses have competed in the Derby having never run 9f. The filly ran second. She beat 18 colts yesterday and you say she was ill prepared! Monba (Blue Grass winner trained by the vaunted Todd Pletcher) was about 30 lengths behind her. Who was poorly prepared? The owner decided to run in the Derby, not Jones. (The filly who won the Oaks has a different owner.)
I'd have liked the filly better had she had a prep at 9f or against males but she sure ran a big race. She outran my expectations and I was thrilled for her. You don't run that kind of a race in the KENTUCKY DERBYif you are ill prepared.

[Bluesy]

My big thing with (TB) racing is that they don't take enough time to condition their horses properly. If they would do so, there would be less horses breaking down. Horses are treated as a commodity, and when one doesn't work out they throw that one away and reach for another, and so forth. However, if they were to condition properly, they wouldn't need to go through this never ending cycle. But hey, time is money, and money is all people care about, right?


Table 1: Average time course for structural and physiological adaptations to exercise training in horses.

Adaptation - Time Course
Increase in VO2 MAX - 1 - 2 weeks
Increase in plasma volume -1 - 2 weeks
Improved sweating response - 1 - 2 weeks
Increase in red blood cells & haemoglobin - 2 - 4 months
Increase in muscle capillaries - 3 - 6 months
Increase in muscle mitochondria - 4 - 6 months
Increase in muscle aerobic enzymes - 4 - 6 months
Increase in bone density* - 4 - 6 months
Strengthening of tendons and ligaments* - 4 - 6 months
*Available research on training adaptations of supporting structures is limited.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs6942




From Deb Bennett's Ranger piece:


The Schedule of Growth-Plate Conversion to Bone

Short pastern - top and bottom between birth and 6 months
Long pastern - top and bottom between 6 months and one year
Cannon bone - top and bottom between 8 months and 1.5 years
Small bones of the knee - top and bottom of each, between 1.5 and 2.5 years
Bottom of radius-ulna - between 2 and 2.5 years
Weight-bearing portion of glenoid notch at top of radius - between 2.5 and 3 years
Humerus - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years
Scapula - glenoid or bottom (weight-bearing) portion – between
http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

[lesson junkie]

You just can't love Thoroughbreds and hate the race track. My hunter is brave and forward and has great work ethic because he was bred to be that way. My WB can translate his strength into agility because of his TB grandfather. The track produces that. How can we change the racing industry to be less fatalistic about the loss of horses to the game? What if a trainer was fined or suspended when a horse broke down, or a breeder when a certain bloodline showed a percentage of breakdowns? I'm just brainstorming-not sure how realistic any of that would be. Somebody needs to pay besides the horses.

[DickHertz]

What if a trainer was fined or suspended when a horse broke down, or a breeder when a certain bloodline showed a percentage of breakdowns? I'm just brainstorming-not sure how realistic any of that would be. Somebody needs to pay besides the horses.

I've always been in favor of $10 per start fee (I think some jurisdictions already do this). It would weed out some of the real low-lifes who have no money, but run horses. Each track would generate $900 per day toward the cause. Probably wouldn't save every horse, but it would be a pretty nice start.

The bigger problem is every jurisdiction is out on their own. Another major problem with racing...there's no uniformity. Every time you ship out of town in the Mid-Atlantic you have to read the entire condition book from the other track to make sure you aren't missing anything (and even then some crappy rules are even printed inthe condition book).

[Pronzini]

I defy you to find a better horeman that Larry Jones. Several horses have competed in the Derby having never run 9f. The filly ran second. She beat 18 colts yesterday and you say she was ill prepared! Monba (Blue Grass winner trained by the vaunted Todd Pletcher) was about 30 lengths behind her. Who was poorly prepared? The owner decided to run in the Derby, not Jones. (The filly who won the Oaks has a different owner.)
I'd have liked the filly better had she had a prep at 9f or against males but she sure ran a big race. She outran my expectations and I was thrilled for her. You don't run that kind of a race in the KENTUCKY DERBYif you are ill prepared.

He's certainly the only trainer I am aware of from yesterday's Derby who regularly climbed on his horse's back. I came to this thread not to address the groundswell of emotion after the race, most of which I suspect is honestly held and understandable, but to remember the filly herself. Not only the great performance she gave that will be her legacy but also the clip of Larry Jones' last ride "Earth to Eight Belles". Thinking of it still makes me smile albeit a little wistfully.

[BornToRide]

That's why it's so crushing. The horses are happy because they're well cared for. But even being well cared for, the "poor race horse" does have NO choice. They're happy until both their ankles break and they fall to the ground.



Happy is a relative term isn't it. Let's see.............their childhood is taken away and they are put into childhood labor for as much as they can tolerate and although they are fed well and receive all the veterinary care they need, they do not get regular turnout or are allowed to be natural horses in any way. How would you like this sort of life as a human??

They indeed have no choice - they are forced to perform for their humans and in too many race horse cases , the owner's greed causes harm to the horse.

Just feeding and providing medical care is NOT enough to create a happy horse and being exposed to numerous TBs that were rescued off the track confirms this to me. Most have bad behavioral issues and they tend to ping out of their brains for a while thanks to the diet and drugs they have been on while in training.

Yeah, sure, I can certainly see the "happy" horse here that now after being used and abused by so called loving and caring owners/breeders, is being tossed aside when it no longer earns money, or because it is broken down now (most have had career ending injuries - incorrect conditioning training? Anyone??). There are some exceptions of course when it comes to owners, but they should be the norm, not the exception. Perhaps some owners should be legally forced to increase their horses' overall well-being (no training/racing before horses are fully mature, etc.) and providing a loving home for them when they can no longer race!

Anyone who denies such facts is not facing the true reality of racing.

[miss_critic]

He's certainly the only trainer I am aware of from yesterday's Derby who regularly climbed on his horse's back..

That's definately not true.

[Paragon]

I wonder how many different, varied, and creative new ways we can think of to place blame?

I'm seeing some new ones in this thread. Very interesting.

[Pronzini]

That's definately not true.

There are others who galloped their horses? I've seen Pletcher on pony horses--he gets up on Monba? I know Eoin Harty wasn't riding Colonel John and I can't see Dutrow on Big Brown...

[Seal Harbor]

Happy is a relative term isn't it. Let's see.............their childhood is taken away and they are put into childhood labor for as much as they can tolerate and although they are fed well and receive all the veterinary care they need, they do not get regular turnout or are allowed to be natural horses in any way. How would you like this sort of life as a human??

They indeed have no choice - they are forced to perform for their humans and in too many race horse cases , the owner's greed causes harm to the horse.

Just feeding and providing medical care is NOT enough to create a happy horse and being exposed to numerous TBs that were rescued off the track confirms this to me. Most have bad behavioral issues and they tend to ping out of their brains for a while thanks to the diet and drugs they have been on while in training.

Yeah, sure, I can certainly see the "happy" horse here that now after being used and abused by so called loving and caring owners/breeders, is being tossed aside when it no longer earns money, or because it is broken down now (most have had career ending injuries - incorrect conditioning training? Anyone??). There are some exceptions of course when it comes to owners, but they should be the norm, not the exception. Perhaps some owners should be legally forced to increase their horses' overall well-being (no training/racing before horses are fully mature, etc.) and providing a loving home for them when they can no longer race!

Anyone who denies such facts is not facing the true reality of racing.

Sure they have a choice. They don't run. I've had two TBs who NEVER started, they weren't tattooed. The older one lasted 4 months with a race trainer. The younger one sold at Keeneland as a yearling, was shipped west and no saled twice out here in the sales, was then basically given to someone as a flip horse, she had him 4 months and did nothing with him and I bought him when he was about two and a half.

If they don't want to run they don't.

People don't fully mature in their brains until they are in their 20's, bodies in their late teens. Horses mature much sooner than people and don't live to be 80 even in the best circumstances, you can not compare a horse to a person of the same age. Horses don't have a "childhood".

[2 tbs]

I am actually finding myself getting angry with some of the posts on these threads about Eight Belles. How can you guys say these horses are ill prepared? At THIS level of racing these horses are treated better than the President, than Bill Gates, than any top level sports star. These horses are the bread and butter for a HUGE string of people. The owners, the trainers, the exercise riders, the jocks, the grooms - you can not say any one of the horses running yesterday were running simply out of greed.

Yes, you always have your long shots but they are not long shots because they are ill prepared-they are long shots because they aren't bred as well, they haven't proven themselves, etc. Plus, there is no STANDARD in race training. Maybe that's where we go wrong.

Each trainer has their own way. Each owner has their own expectations. Some owners are more willing to go with what a trainer has planned but some are not. Because everyone does things differently some horses have a more specific path to the triple crown races where others end up there almost by accident. Still though, mistakes happen. Even top human athletes overface themselves at times (and they know better!). A trainer does his/her best to prepare the horse the way they think the horse needs prepared. Maybe that's not the right way for that particular horse. Maybe it is right. Big Brown seemed to come through just fine. Would Eight Belles have been better if she trained exactly like him?? Most likely not as I'm sure his workouts wouldn't suit her style.

We need to look at the bigger picture here. This is just like any other riding discipline. There are the top levels, the mid levels, and the bottom levels. You find more of these: :eek: at the bottom levels. Usually dangerous riding, dangerous horses (because they get the upper hand which never works well with a novice horse person). Injuries to riders are usually more prevalent at this level. Horses often suffer greater tragedy due to negligence and greed. Then there are the mid levels where all seems well. The horses are not pushed to the max, riders are pretty capable so all seems more like this: :) There are some injuries but farther and fewer between are life threatening-maybe career ending though. Then there are the top levels where riders and horses are pushed to be the best of the best. The chance of catastrophe is much greater at this level. Usually this involves media coverage. You see much more of this: :no:

Thing is, you see this: :no: in all professional sports. I've watched football and hockey players train, exercise and be the fittest people on the planet. However they still suffer ridiculous injuries that were beyond their control. Sh*t does happen. Yes, we take precautions to ensure we limit the risk but fact of the matter is-we can not eliminate it. Driving down the road to the grocery store brings risk into our lives. Our cars are built to try and protect us - doesn't always work.

Biggest thing to remember here is this is a sport. The sport is risky. The top levels pose challenges. If any of you have watched horse racing even limitedly over the years you'd know many changes have been made and many are still in the works. One big thing often discussed is if the triple crown is too demanding. The sad way of thinking in this world is that it takes death to bring about change. That goes for all aspects of life. I'm sure more changes will be discussed and it's a shame such a lovely filly's death may be the only way some of those changes take place.

Another thing is that we live and learn. We do one thing one way because we think it's right. When we often have to suffer to find better ways. A trainer may do things different once he encounters a problem but until there is a problem it would seem all is well with their methods. It's the trainers, or heck any person really, that doesn't learn from their mistakes or even straight up accidents that couldn't be prevented no matter what, that we need to take fault with.

There are a long list of folks involved with getting that race run yesterday and it's likely they are all to blame but none of them are to blame at the same time. Please do not point fingers but rather take your anger/saddness and put it towards making suggestions for a better, safer means of getting the job done. If you can't do that or don't want to be bothered, then remember you can change the channel on your TV and not watch the handful of televised races a year. Just go back to living in your bubbles assuming all is well with the world.

[BornToRide]

If they are treated that well, as you claim, and are being properly conditioned, then how come this filly comes down with bilateral breaks in the same area?? You can bet your hiny that those are going to be identified as stress fractures, that, as we all know by now, are usually caused by incorrect conditioning.

I will give you this much - diet and meds can potentially also cause a weakening of the bones because a diet high in starches and sugars, which is a typical race horse diet, raises the acidity levels in the blood when the healthy PH is more alkaline. In order to correct this imbalance, the body CAN and WILL pull calcium from the bones. if this happens in excess guess what you get? And some meds may have a contributing effect.

Honestly aks yourself the question - would you really, really like to live a life of a racehorse, with sugary feeds that cause ulcers and other problems, meds with all sorts of annoying side effects , all and hard work and very, very little play and physical contact with your own kind?

Threat your horse like you would like to be treated!

[I'm EBO]

Galileo said: They do race almost exclusively on turf, but they are not started any later. What gave you that idea?

Some European people I know told me that they were usually not started until their third year. I thought they probably knew, but thanks for the correction.

[Trixie]

You know, I'm usually a lurker on this forum but I have to say from the heart that I am completely appalled at some of the replies on this thread, and at 43 I'm pretty hard to shock. I think these responses speak for themselves. Whether you agree with the original poster or not, whatever happened to manners and at least respecting another person's opinion? I feel truly, truly sad for the future of our sport tonight.

I agree.

I can absolutely understand the OP's frustration.

I can absolutely understand the frustration with the OP from racing folk that do treat their horses well and do the best they can to keep the sport as safe as is possible.

I don't think telling someone expressing an opinion to shut up or go play in someone else's sandbox is helping anything.

[BornToRide]

Not acknowledging the true facts and how many horses continue to suffer in the racing industry is also not serving the horses at all!

If anyone is offended by this, the there must be an emotional conflict somewhere deep down about how the horse is cared for and treated because if you truly feel you are doing the best for your horse and treat it like you would your child, this would not offend you in the least bit.

[rcloisonne]

...Big Brown seemed to come through just fine.
You sure about that? A number of folks noticed he looked "off" after the race. Heck, he and several others looked stiff and sore coming out of the saddling area BEFORE the race.

[Curb Appeal]

They are born and bred to run, they love it . If not for racing they would not be. If you don't like it don't watch. Go save a seal or a tree.

That is a rediculous argument.

My 4 year old son would love to ride his bike in the street. That doesn't mean I'm going to let him do it.

Better for these horses to not be than to be ruined and thrown out like garbage when they are broken and can no longer make money for their owners.

It is up to the breeders and owners to protect these babies. They are making it clear that money is more important.

[chism]

I keep hearing people say how the horses love to race. I call bullshit. That's just the kind of statement that fluff-bunny bleeding hearts always get called on for being anthropomorphic. You can't possibly know that a horse loves racing. How do you know he wouldn't rather be loafing around eating grass all day? They are big dumb animals and they are programmed to cooperate. It has nothing to do with "love." They're just trying to get along and survive.

Do horses appear to enjoy running? I'd say yes. Do they often appear to adapt to the handling and lifestyle of the track? It would seem so. But then, what options do they have? Please spare me the whole "love" part though. If the horses "loved" it so much, then why do almost all of them have ulcers?

My OTTB certainly appears to love galloping in the field. But I honestly can't tell you why he does it, or whether he does it because he loves it. I have a sense that he didn't love the things they did to him at the track. The lip chains, the ear twitching, the shanking, the needles, the stiff sore joints.

If I had to guess, I would think he would have preferred to stand around with a bunch of mares eating grass. But then again, if it weren't for racing, he wouldn't be here, so let's all just pretend there aren't any problems.

So you own an OTTB? Then you should know.. It's who they are, why they were bred, it's in their heart & soul. I own several retired race horses, one of whom retired sound at the age of 8 after 75 starts. He LIVES to run, he tells me frequently what he thinks of this trot/canter pansy-ass second career. He is in his glory doing what he was bred to do, running. In company with other horses, he MUST win, it's in every fiber of his being. So...yes, I do believe they love it. Maybe not each and every one, but many of them do. You mention ear twitching & injections & lip chains. I'm sorry...those things are not industry specific.


In response to the avalanche of racing bashers - While there are problems in the industry, there are many success stories are well. The people who love the sport are grieving Eight Belles as well. The people who live and breathe the sport are doing their best to improve it each & every day, not just when it makes the national news. There is no need to come here and kick them while they're down. It's just downright mean.

[LarkspurCO]

You are comparing a horse's death to that of a human's? wow. I think it's getting plenty of media coverage what more are you looking for?

I was referring to the live coverage on NBC, not the follow-up coverage. So far what I've seen is good. Yes, I compared an animal with a human -- to make a point, which is to illustrate the relative insignificance of the filly's death in the judgment of the TV network. The horses are on center stage here, after all.

Bottom line these horses are bred for racing, if you eliminate that you also eliminate the need for your precious OTTBs'. What are you going to say that you "rescued" if there is no more horse racing?

How charming of you. Somehow I have a feeling I would have found another horse. Like the three I already had, for example.:rolleyes:

[Gestalt]

I had the horse of a lifetime in my TB mare, she broke down before she even made it to a track. At 2 yo's old she was 16.3h and was huge through the body. She also had bowed tendons. I bought her and worked past the tendon issues, she was the best horse to ride and hang out with. She also did very well in dressage and trail riding. Just an all around nice horse. She had leg and hoof problems that plagued her all her life.

When she died, on her grave I placed a marker that says " What made her great destroyed her". I believe this is true for all TB's. They are created for speed and speed only. When that speed kills them, they are simply another statistic. It seems none of the breeders are interested in horses that last beyond 3 years. I'd love it if I were wrong, do you know of a racing barn that takes longevity into consideration?

[Granada]

If they are treated that well, as you claim, and are being properly conditioned, then how come this filly comes down with bilateral breaks in the same area?? You can bet your hiny that those are going to be identified as stress fractures, that, as we all know by now, are usually caused by incorrect conditioning.

Where do you get your facts? Have you ever seen what a horses limb looks like when it is galloping at those speeds? And you honestly think their conditioning and feeding is the cause:confused: Why would we "all know that by now" ? To my knowledge, I have never found a study that showed a correlation between feed, conditioning and stress fractures in TBs. There are studies that show correlations between stress fractures and conformation faults. When that much stress is put on the limb any number of little things will contribute to an injury.

You are trying to simplify the complex using your own reasoning, not that of facts. So please don't present your opinion as a fact. I think a single injury/incident is very complex and unique, but it will hold some similarities to the pool of racehorse injuries as a whole. These similarities are what we can target to make the most usefull changes.

I hope the racing community puts more effort into funding more studies and commits themselves to investigating the soundness of racing two and three year olds and makes the necessary changes based on real statistics.

[LarkspurCO]

Have you ever ridden and ex racer? It's who they are, why they were bred, it's in their heart & soul. I own several retired race horses, one of whom retired sound at the age of 8 after 75 starts. He LIVES to run, he tells me frequently what he thinks of this trot/canter pansy-ass second career. He is in his glory doing what he was bred to do, running.
While there are problems in the industry, there are many success stories are well. The people who love the sport are grieving. The people who live and breathe the sport are doing their best to improve it & make it safer for the horses. There is no need to come here and kick them while they're down. It's just downright mean.

Yes, I have an ex-racer. I rode him yesterday and I will be riding him today.

I do believe I properly acknowledged that many people in racing are responsible and caring. But there's a darker side as well. My comment was regarding the statement the horses wouldn't be here if not for racing, which is true. But that statement seems to also imply that because racing made them, no one else has any business questioning how the animals are treated.

[Granada]

Galileo said:

Some European people I know told me that they were usually not started until their third year. I thought they probably knew, but thanks for the correction.

I can't say what they do on a whole. But my OTTB had a number of races as a two year old in the UK on turf. He even ran in a 32 horse field:eek: wish I could have seen it.

[LarkspurCO]

You mention ear twitching & injections & lip chains. I'm sorry...those things are not industry specific.

No, but the subject here is racing.

[sporthorsefilly]

Yes, this thread is about Racing. TBs are bred and born to be race horses. Sometimes, they run with heart and go through the pain, to fall and die. It makes me terribly sad. I look out at the 5 who are my "pasture pets," and yes, they do love to run...under their own expression...perhaps not so much under stress. But lets get past anger and think a bit more.

What decisions are used to produce a race horse? Are breeders looking for soundness, and boning, or are they looking toward what will sell in the sales ring? Does anyone "track" the bloodlines that stay sound and the ones that do not? Are the modern trainers as clever about horse care as those from the '40s and '50s? These are all things that horsemen should be asking themselves.

I've watched horse racing all of my life, I remember seeing Native Dancer, and I remember the first time that I saw a fall, it was Black Hills in the Belmont...1958? OK so I've seen many falls, I hate them, I find myself watching races, expecting to see horses fall, it makes me feel sick. In the same breathe, do I love to watch the videos of Secretariat, or Affirmed and Alydar, you bet I do! But yes, I remember Ruffian; Go For Wand; Barbaro and others. AND I remember my own Medal/Maclay horse, a TB, cantering loose around a turn, slipping falling and fracturing his leg. No one was making him run, and he wasn't going fast. It was an accident, and yes, accidents happen.

Perhaps looking into better stronger boning; and not pushing horses to gain weight for the sales ring, may help. Looking at bloodlines for their health and not the $$ may help. There are good people in the TB industry, who try their best to produce healthy, wonderful horses, and there are good trainers and good owners who do care. Don't blame everyone for a breakdown, the "what ifs" the "hind sight"...what if the filly had won the race? What if she hadn't broken down? What if she hadn't run in the Derby?

Am I upset that this tragedy happened YES, I wish it hadn't happened on national TV, do I blame racing...NO, because horses die in many sports, and there are those who are trying very hard to make racing safer for horses and jockeys. Changes are needed, but don't label horse racing or the people who love it. There are good people and not so good people in all walks of life, and in all sports. Everyone right now is taking a very hard look at why, give those imperfect humans a break, let them think through what can be done, don't condemn the industry, because there are some wonderful people in the industry, who help to make life better for all horses.

[Granada]

Sporthorsefilly, Thank you. Well said:yes:

[2 tbs]

Ok. Let's take a breath for a minute. Anyone care to give facts on the origins of racing? How about where the age determinations were created?

I'm running out the door or I'd do the research and post it myself. Point is - this is an age old sport that has made great improvements over the years and will continue to make improvements. We didn't just create out of the blue the racing age groups. This has been going on for quite some time. Maybe it is time re-evaluate since we know so much more about horses but if this isn't re-evaluated it's most likely because other aspects are being re-evaluated and attempted to be made better to keep the sport as close to it's origins as possible. It takes time and we can't eliminate all possibilities either.

What happened yesterday is tragic but don't think the racing world hasn't taken notice. They have made lots of changes and will continue to make changes as necessary. Trainers/owners will re-evaluate their methods as they feel necessary as well. It will take time to revamp the entire sport but it has come leaps and bounds over the years - some ways have been good and some ways haven't been good. The same can be said for eventing. I don't think they are necessarily the same but no one involved with eventing can deny the changes made to the sport need some time to adapt to thus encountering issues along the way. Maybe the eventing powers that be will decide to make more changes or go back to the way it was. Same thing can and will occur in racing - most just won't see it because most of the folks posting on the racing forum right now are not even racing related.

[Sassenach]

Yes, this thread is about Racing. TBs are bred and born to be race horses. Sometimes, they run with heart and go through the pain, to fall and die. It makes me terribly sad. I look out at the 5 who are my "pasture pets," and yes, they do love to run...under their own expression...perhaps not so much under stress. But lets get past anger and think a bit more.

What decisions are used to produce a race horse? Are breeders looking for soundness, and boning, or are they looking toward what will sell in the sales ring? Does anyone "track" the bloodlines that stay sound and the ones that do not? Are the modern trainers as clever about horse care as those from the '40s and '50s? These are all things that horsemen should be asking themselves.

I've watched horse racing all of my life, I remember seeing Native Dancer, and I remember the first time that I saw a fall, it was Black Hills in the Belmont...1958? OK so I've seen many falls, I hate them, I find myself watching races, expecting to see horses fall, it makes me feel sick. In the same breathe, do I love to watch the videos of Secretariat, or Affirmed and Alydar, you bet I do! But yes, I remember Ruffian; Go For Wand; Barbaro and others. AND I remember my own Medal/Maclay horse, a TB, cantering loose around a turn, slipping falling and fracturing his leg. No one was making him run, and he wasn't going fast. It was an accident, and yes, accidents happen.

Perhaps looking into better stronger boning; and not pushing horses to gain weight for the sales ring, may help. Looking at bloodlines for their health and not the $$ may help. There are good people in the TB industry, who try their best to produce healthy, wonderful horses, and there are good trainers and good owners who do care. Don't blame everyone for a breakdown, the "what ifs" the "hind sight"...what if the filly had won the race? What if she hadn't broken down? What if she hadn't run in the Derby?

Am I upset that this tragedy happened YES, I wish it hadn't happened on national TV, do I blame racing...NO, because horses die in many sports, and there are those who are trying very hard to make racing safer for horses and jockeys. Changes are needed, but don't label horse racing or the people who love it. There are good people and not so good people in all walks of life, and in all sports. Everyone right now is taking a very hard look at why, give those imperfect humans a break, let them think through what can be done, don't condemn the industry, because there are some wonderful people in the industry, who help to make life better for all horses.

:yes: Agree.

Have you ever seen the National Hunt horses in Europe? They usually aren't started under saddle until they are late 3 or 4. Average age I'd estimate is 8 or 9 years. I've seen a couple hitting the double digits.

Big horses, gorgeous and lacking bone is not a fault there. :yes:

AND they carry weight!!

[solargal]

Ok. Let's take a breath for a minute. Anyone care to give facts on the origins of racing? How about where the age determinations were created?

I'm running out the door or I'd do the research and post it myself. Point is - this is an age old sport that has made great improvements over the years and will continue to make improvements. We didn't just create out of the blue the racing age groups. This has been going on for quite some time. Maybe it is time re-evaluate since we know so much more about horses but if this isn't re-evaluated it's most likely because other aspects are being re-evaluated and attempted to be made better to keep the sport as close to it's origins as possible. It takes time and we can't eliminate all possibilities either.

What happened yesterday is tragic but don't think the racing world hasn't taken notice. They have made lots of changes and will continue to make changes as necessary. Trainers/owners will re-evaluate their methods as they feel necessary as well. It will take time to revamp the entire sport but it has come leaps and bounds over the years - some ways have been good and some ways haven't been good. The same can be said for eventing. I don't think they are necessarily the same but no one involved with eventing can deny the changes made to the sport need some time to adapt to thus encountering issues along the way. Maybe the eventing powers that be will decide to make more changes or go back to the way it was. Same thing can and will occur in racing - most just won't see it because most of the folks posting on the racing forum right now are not even racing related.


Good post.

[harvestmoon]

Yes, this thread is about Racing. TBs are bred and born to be race horses. Sometimes, they run with heart and go through the pain, to fall and die. It makes me terribly sad. I look out at the 5 who are my "pasture pets," and yes, they do love to run...under their own expression...perhaps not so much under stress. But lets get past anger and think a bit more.

What decisions are used to produce a race horse? Are breeders looking for soundness, and boning, or are they looking toward what will sell in the sales ring? Does anyone "track" the bloodlines that stay sound and the ones that do not? Are the modern trainers as clever about horse care as those from the '40s and '50s? These are all things that horsemen should be asking themselves.

I've watched horse racing all of my life, I remember seeing Native Dancer, and I remember the first time that I saw a fall, it was Black Hills in the Belmont...1958? OK so I've seen many falls, I hate them, I find myself watching races, expecting to see horses fall, it makes me feel sick. In the same breathe, do I love to watch the videos of Secretariat, or Affirmed and Alydar, you bet I do! But yes, I remember Ruffian; Go For Wand; Barbaro and others. AND I remember my own Medal/Maclay horse, a TB, cantering loose around a turn, slipping falling and fracturing his leg. No one was making him run, and he wasn't going fast. It was an accident, and yes, accidents happen.

Perhaps looking into better stronger boning; and not pushing horses to gain weight for the sales ring, may help. Looking at bloodlines for their health and not the $$ may help. There are good people in the TB industry, who try their best to produce healthy, wonderful horses, and there are good trainers and good owners who do care. Don't blame everyone for a breakdown, the "what ifs" the "hind sight"...what if the filly had won the race? What if she hadn't broken down? What if she hadn't run in the Derby?

Am I upset that this tragedy happened YES, I wish it hadn't happened on national TV, do I blame racing...NO, because horses die in many sports, and there are those who are trying very hard to make racing safer for horses and jockeys. Changes are needed, but don't label horse racing or the people who love it. There are good people and not so good people in all walks of life, and in all sports. Everyone right now is taking a very hard look at why, give those imperfect humans a break, let them think through what can be done, don't condemn the industry, because there are some wonderful people in the industry, who help to make life better for all horses.

Thank you for your rational post. :)

[Nikki17]

I am a life long horse person, currently a trainer and love all aspects of horses, however, I cannot and will not ever support racing. IMO, racing has always and will always be a blood sport. The death of this young filly is just one of many and if the racing community continues to run these immature horses to their death, there will be many more to come. I think it's bull sh** who says "they are doing what they love" How do you know? Have you asked one lately? You are just making yourself feel better. Let's see, run my a** off or graze in field? I don't think ANY horse, ANY dicipline would choose to work. Absolutely accidents happen, however, I would like to think that we (being the smarter animal) would take more calculated risks and realize that running a 17 H baby is abuse.

[AZ Native]

http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html



Dr. Deb Bennett's article on the skeletal and musculature develpoment of horses. The sub title '' Futurities '' goes into the history of racing, which according to her , was not originally designed for 2 or 3 yr. olds.
I did not watch the derby, only heard about it this am, and was extremely angry and upset. With the information available about the development of the young horse, or lack there of,provided by people like Dr. Bennett, I can only conclude that it is about fame and money, not the well being of the horse.Otherwise we would see the industry ( and one can add cutting and reining ) waiting untill the horses were mature enough to do the jobs asked of them.

[Equilibrium]

They do race almost exclusively on turf, but they are not started any later. What gave you that idea?

Yesterday the 2000 Guineas was run at Newmarket, 1 mile for three year olds.

The winner, Henrythenavigator had his first start on May 6th of his two year old year and ran 4 times as a two year old.

The second, New Approach has his first start on July 15th of his two year old year and ran 5 times as a two year old.

The third, Stubbs Art has his first start on May 24th of his two year old year and ran 6 times as a two year old.

The only horse in the race that didn't start as a two year old was a 250/1 outsider that finished 14th of the 15 starters.

The race before the Guineas was a Group 3 race for fillies and mares ages 4 and up. All but one horse in that race also raced as two year olds.

Diffrences in European racing and American racing are vast. Most never really train on the surface they run on. Most trainers have tracks which are up and down and the horses are not exclusively trained to the left. Most horses are getting turnout while in training and they do other things, flatwork, hacks in fields, going to the beach. I've had a 2yo winner this year already whom I bred. Since her win she's being going out all day every day and has a few hacks per week. She's as fit as she needs to be and she's kept ticking over. What she isn't is on the track for 15 mins, walked for 45, and locked up for 23hours per day. Her muscles are moving. Our flat horses come home in the fall for R&R. Never had any 2yo come back with any issues to address. Nope it's rug on and out to the field and in at night. I think most behavorial issues with TB's back home is the confinement and the regiment of the track and there is no other way to do it.

But lets also ponder before horses are in training. The fat as hell yearling being prepped for the sales that has been stabled most of his life already because he could fetch really good money and it would be ashame if he got hurt before the sales. These yearlings could also be on steroids. Hells bells turn the out already and let them get some concussion on those legs. Let them get dirty, let them get wet, let them be a bit lean and grow into themselves, balance the nutrtion don't just shovel it into them to make them fat and pretty. This is why horses are lacking in bone, there's no concussion for the bone to grow.

Terri

[Drvmb1ggl3]

This is why horses are lacking in bone, there's no concussion for the bone to grow.

Terri


Road work is yer only man!

[sidepasser]

Happy is a relative term isn't it. Let's see.............their childhood is taken away and they are put into childhood labor for as much as they can tolerate and although they are fed well and receive all the veterinary care they need, they do not get regular turnout or are allowed to be natural horses in any way. How would you like this sort of life as a human??

They indeed have no choice - they are forced to perform for their humans and in too many race horse cases , the owner's greed causes harm to the horse.

Just feeding and providing medical care is NOT enough to create a happy horse and being exposed to numerous TBs that were rescued off the track confirms this to me. Most have bad behavioral issues and they tend to ping out of their brains for a while thanks to the diet and drugs they have been on while in training.

Yeah, sure, I can certainly see the "happy" horse here that now after being used and abused by so called loving and caring owners/breeders, is being tossed aside when it no longer earns money, or because it is broken down now (most have had career ending injuries - incorrect conditioning training? Anyone??). There are some exceptions of course when it comes to owners, but they should be the norm, not the exception. Perhaps some owners should be legally forced to increase their horses' overall well-being (no training/racing before horses are fully mature, etc.) and providing a loving home for them when they can no longer race!

Anyone who denies such facts is not facing the true reality of racing.

or the realities of showing horses either..because what you speak of goes on in many show barns every single day of the week. Babies weaned, prepped for the futurities, the halter shows, the in hand classes, the 2 year old futurities, etc.

Every single day of the week. And many of those horses burn out, they go lame, they breakdown and they are sent to sale barns or euthanized.

Only thing different is that not that many people notice because it is not "right in their face" on TV..it's in training barns from coast to coast. Do all owners do this? No. Neither do all race horse owners either. I happen to own a horse that was raced, and he didn't do squat until he was a 3 year old and he still broke down and came off the track with a fractured seismoid. His owner retired him and found him a home.

So while we can holler about the racing industry, there is enough blame for all those babies being sent off for training, and kept stalled during the days, or turned out alone because of fear of injury.

That's another topic though..

How many races are held on Derby day? How many horses were euthanized? How many are run each year at each track and how many are euthanized? While injuries are rampant (I have 3 OTTBS - I know they come with all sorts of injuries), are deaths out of line with the numbers running daily/weekly/yearly?

I don't know how to look up that type of information, but if there were say six races each week, and 50% died at the track..that is a huge problem. If there is 1,000 racers running weekly at tracks around the country (don't forget the QH, Arab, Paints and Standardbreds too)..and only .0005 percent die, is that number more reasonable.

What I am asking is do the numbers correlate with an "accidental" death scenario versus "we got a huge problem" scenario? I'm sure that someone out there has these numbers and could shed some light on it. I don't really trust the "deathwatch" sites because they don't record all the races and all the runners. What would be nice is to see the statistics based on each track, each age group and the length of the race to see if what is showing is a huge increase in deaths at one track, one age group, etc.

How can one affect change if one doesn't have hard and fast numbers.

BTW - I do love my OTTBs, can't say I can still ride them due to MY age and physical problems, but they do get their training so they can lead useful lives that they are capable of.

[Soldier06]

Yes, this thread is about Racing. TBs are bred and born to be race horses. Sometimes, they run with heart and go through the pain, to fall and die. It makes me terribly sad. I look out at the 5 who are my "pasture pets," and yes, they do love to run...under their own expression...perhaps not so much under stress. But lets get past anger and think a bit more.

What decisions are used to produce a race horse? Are breeders looking for soundness, and boning, or are they looking toward what will sell in the sales ring? Does anyone "track" the bloodlines that stay sound and the ones that do not? Are the modern trainers as clever about horse care as those from the '40s and '50s? These are all things that horsemen should be asking themselves.

I've watched horse racing all of my life, I remember seeing Native Dancer, and I remember the first time that I saw a fall, it was Black Hills in the Belmont...1958? OK so I've seen many falls, I hate them, I find myself watching races, expecting to see horses fall, it makes me feel sick. In the same breathe, do I love to watch the videos of Secretariat, or Affirmed and Alydar, you bet I do! But yes, I remember Ruffian; Go For Wand; Barbaro and others. AND I remember my own Medal/Maclay horse, a TB, cantering loose around a turn, slipping falling and fracturing his leg. No one was making him run, and he wasn't going fast. It was an accident, and yes, accidents happen.

Perhaps looking into better stronger boning; and not pushing horses to gain weight for the sales ring, may help. Looking at bloodlines for their health and not the $$ may help. There are good people in the TB industry, who try their best to produce healthy, wonderful horses, and there are good trainers and good owners who do care. Don't blame everyone for a breakdown, the "what ifs" the "hind sight"...what if the filly had won the race? What if she hadn't broken down? What if she hadn't run in the Derby?

Am I upset that this tragedy happened YES, I wish it hadn't happened on national TV, do I blame racing...NO, because horses die in many sports, and there are those who are trying very hard to make racing safer for horses and jockeys. Changes are needed, but don't label horse racing or the people who love it. There are good people and not so good people in all walks of life, and in all sports. Everyone right now is taking a very hard look at why, give those imperfect humans a break, let them think through what can be done, don't condemn the industry, because there are some wonderful people in the industry, who help to make life better for all horses.

I was lurking, as being a hunter rider I didn't see the need to say anything. :lol: But I will say this, I completely agree. Before I bought Soldier I lived in the land of WB's and couldn't care less about racing. Now after buying Soldier (an OTTB) I have a whole new outlook on it. It is absolutely amazing to watch them break from the gate, and I truely do believe they LOVE it. Maybe the horses at the lower tracks don't love it, but the Derby horses? I think they do.

Any top competitor has to love what they do. A GP jumper has to love it, do you think they'd jump those huge fences if they didn't want to? Or a GP dressage horse, my mom's FEI horse LOVES his job, he was a jumper, and an eventer and never was he has been as happy as he is now. Or a working hunter, do you really think they'd canter up so beautifully over those fences if they truely didn't want to? These are 1000lbs animals, and most of them do know how big they are and know the *could* get away. I watch my guys in the pasture, Soldier could seriously injure me if he pulled that undersaddle, same with the FEI horse, even my little pony. Sure some are unhappy, but I think the majority (Eight Bells included) LOVE it.

TB's do give too much sometimes. Soldier once was NQR but the only class we had left was the hack, and my trainer couldn't see the problem and I felt it maybe once every 10 strides. I pulled from the jumps but decided to hack. He is a competitive horse, went in the ring and WON. I wasn't pushing him, but he is a different horse in the show ring (in fact I went in ready to pull up if need be). Went home got him a massage ASAP, no biggie a little tight in his back, right behind my saddle. Chances are the horse would have gone in with a broken leg and tried his hardest (but I wouldn't have put him in ;)). He DOESN'T say no. So that's where it becomes the trainer's, owner's, riders, descision. Is the horse ready, mentally, physically ect...Are you doing right by the horse. That to me is the question. And I think most do, no one wants a tragedy like Eight Bells.

[Swale01]

I am actually finding myself getting angry with some of the posts on these threads about Eight Belles. How can you guys say these horses are ill prepared?
****
There are a long list of folks involved with getting that race run yesterday and it's likely they are all to blame but none of them are to blame at the same time. Please do not point fingers but rather take your anger/saddness and put it towards making suggestions for a better, safer means of getting the job done. If you can't do that or don't want to be bothered, then remember you can change the channel on your TV and not watch the handful of televised races a year. Just go back to living in your bubbles assuming all is well with the world.

Because preparation isn't just about fitness. All of these horses, sure, are conditioned to clock around the track at at least :12 for a furlong - and some can hold that more than others. ESPECIALLY THOSE who had worked up to a mile and an eighth race as their final Derby prep. Mental preparation for a horse is just as critical, and some horses aren't ready for the Derby experience - as trainer Shug McGaughey pointed out when he set an example to the horseracing community a few years back when he opted to keep a perfectly healthy Coronado's Quest out of the Derby because he acted like an idiot in the paddocks and post parades and McGaughey said he wasn't mature enough to handle it.

I take nothing away from Eight Belles - she ran an incredible race, she proved she had amazing heart. But when you look at the facts, any person with an open mind about this should have some serious questions. She was the only horse in the field who hadn't attempted 1 and 1/8. She hadn't even seen Grade 1 stakes level competition amongst other FILLIES - let alone running against colts. Yet her stablemate Proud Spell, winner of the Oaks, not only had 2 Grade 1s under her belt, but was clearly sent to the more prestigious races for fillies - why is that? Why was Proud Spell running in the Grade 1 Ashland at Keeneland against the best quality fillies in the country in April when Eight Belles was in a G2 race at Oaklawn Park against only 3 other un-notable fillies? If you were aiming her for the Derby, why would you not try to give her some distance? Why not run against colts? Winning Colors ran (and won) the Santa Anita Derby, and Genuine Risk was in the Wood Memorial. You are either conditioning and preparing them for what they will face, or you aren't.

Those of us who own thoroughbreds know that it is very possible to 'overface' them. They are inclined to do what you ask of them, with their incredible work ethic, regardless of what they may have been prepared for. Racehorses are no different. You shouldn't enter them in a race you haven't properly prepared them for because some of them WILL run to the detriment of their own health and body, if their heart is too big to learn the lesson of protecting themselves.

I hear that all the time at Charles Town - "this horse is in good shape because he knows how to protect himself." It's true - it's also why he's a $4K claimer, because he doesn't run through adversity. A great horse like Eight Belles will - and it's why her connections owed it to her to give her the most experience and preparation they could before asking something so huge of her. And I don't believe that a G2 stakes race at 1 and 1/16 against three other no-name fillies is adequate for this.

[gazenna]

My question is,,,How old are these babies when they have a rider on their backs for the first time? If its under two how can that even be a little bit exceptable, As far as I am concerned its just wrong. How many people on this board would buy a horse if the add said horse was broke and riden at 1 and a half years old? I would say no one would unless they want to save the baby from idiot owners, or just dont care about the babies future.

[I'm EBO]

Gazenna, the quarter horse reiners and cutters are trained that young--18 months old for the wrenching turns and stops--so they can show them in Futurities, no matter that their own futures are ordinarily to become a horse that's used up before most other horses reach their prime. And, these horses sell as youngsters like three-for-a-dollar pancakes!

[EquineLVR]

Because preparation isn't just about fitness. All of these horses, sure, are conditioned to clock around the track at at least :12 for a furlong - and some can hold that more than others. ESPECIALLY THOSE who had worked up to a mile and an eighth race as their final Derby prep. Mental preparation for a horse is just as critical, and some horses aren't ready for the Derby experience - as trainer Shug McGaughey pointed out when he set an example to the horseracing community a few years back when he opted to keep a perfectly healthy Coronado's Quest out of the Derby because he acted like an idiot in the paddocks and post parades and McGaughey said he wasn't mature enough to handle it.

I take nothing away from Eight Belles - she ran an incredible race, she proved she had amazing heart. But when you look at the facts, any person with an open mind about this should have some serious questions. She was the only horse in the field who hadn't attempted 1 and 1/8. She hadn't even seen Grade 1 stakes level competition amongst other FILLIES - let alone running against colts. Yet her stablemate Proud Spell, winner of the Oaks, not only had 2 Grade 1s under her belt, but was clearly sent to the more prestigious races for fillies - why is that? Why was Proud Spell running in the Grade 1 Ashland at Keeneland against the best quality fillies in the country in April when Eight Belles was in a G2 race at Oaklawn Park against only 3 other un-notable fillies? If you were aiming her for the Derby, why would you not try to give her some distance? Why not run against colts? Winning Colors ran (and won) the Santa Anita Derby, and Genuine Risk was in the Wood Memorial. You are either conditioning and preparing them for what they will face, or you aren't.

Those of us who own thoroughbreds know that it is very possible to 'overface' them. They are inclined to do what you ask of them, with their incredible work ethic, regardless of what they may have been prepared for. Racehorses are no different. You shouldn't enter them in a race you haven't properly prepared them for because some of them WILL run to the detriment of their own health and body, if their heart is too big to learn the lesson of protecting themselves.

I hear that all the time at Charles Town - "this horse is in good shape because he knows how to protect himself." It's true - it's also why he's a $4K claimer, because he doesn't run through adversity. A great horse like Eight Belles will - and it's why her connections owed it to her to give her the most experience and preparation they could before asking something so huge of her. And I don't believe that a G2 stakes race at 1 and 1/16 against three other no-name fillies is adequate for this.

I am no race horse owner - just plenty of OTTB's and I have to agree with this logic. It seems that there were quite a few factors that were not taken into account with Eight Belles.. and she paid the ultimate price.

I am not saying this does not happen in other equestrian sports as it does.. people get greedy and people want instant gratification. Instead of doing the right thing and waiting they push it and either ruin the horse or break it down.

Someone stated on the other Eight Belles thread that we need to take a look at Equestrian sports as whole and I agree with that.

This is a terrible tradgedy for all equestrians but maybe it will make bring some much needed changes to all the equestrian sports..

If we all take nothing away from this and no one does one thing different then Eight Belles death will have been in vain.. but it only takes one - one person to say I am going to do things different from here on out.. and then one more person who learns from that person and so on and so forth.. and then at least some good will have come from this.

Just my two cents.

RIP Eight Belles....God Speed.

[huntereq7]

It is a fact that when young horses are put through grueling training and physical strain when their bones and bodies are not fully developed are much more prone to injuries- some minor, some fatal. I'm not saying the racing industry is the only that starts horses too young- they just get the most publicity for it. I'm not against racing- I'm against racing these horses far too young. It would be more beneficial for the horse's soundness and welfare to start racing intensive training/racing when they are fully developed- around the age of 4-5 years old. Obviously I care about the horses more than anything, but this is coming more from a scientific viewpoint than an emotional one. It is a fact that the body of a thoroughbred is not fully mature until they are between 4 and 5 years old.

[2 tbs]

Because preparation isn't just about fitness. All of these horses, sure, are conditioned to clock around the track at at least :12 for a furlong - and some can hold that more than others. ESPECIALLY THOSE who had worked up to a mile and an eighth race as their final Derby prep. Mental preparation for a horse is just as critical, and some horses aren't ready for the Derby experience - as trainer Shug McGaughey pointed out when he set an example to the horseracing community a few years back when he opted to keep a perfectly healthy Coronado's Quest out of the Derby because he acted like an idiot in the paddocks and post parades and McGaughey said he wasn't mature enough to handle it.

I don't disagree with you but this horse didn't seem to have any mental issues in her race. She ran boldly and came in second. She couldn't do that if he wasn't on her game mentally. In fact, I do believe there was some debate on running the filly but her connections felt she was ready so they went with it in the end.

If the Derby was run for 5 yr olds and she was 5 when this happened would everyone accept it? I mean, at 5 she and the rest of the field certainly would've had plenty of opportunity to become more mentally prepared right? No matter what age we start training horses for racing there will always be races that are more than they've ever faced before and will be a test mentally as well as physically. No doubt we'd see the same tragedy because things happen. What would everyone do then? Want the age changed to 10?

I am a supporter of giving horses longer to mature mentally and physically before any stressful workouts but there are many that can't afford to do that. Unfortunately horses are a livelyhood for people not just a pet/friend/pleasure mount. Sometimes it's greed but in most cases it's just the cost of doing business-it's too hard to hang on to something too long without it being productive and earning it's keep. That, unfortunately, is the way of livestock.

That goes for all livestock. If the chicken doesn't lay eggs it's gotta go. Feeds and other artificial means (lights/steroids) help the chickens lay sooner than their bodies would normally. Cows for milk or beef must be ready to give us those products asap. That's just the unfortunate truth when we use animals for business. I will say that owners/trainers usually treat these livelyhood makers as gold because they know they wouldn't be anywhere if it weren't for them but they still have to meet certain expectations.

I don't like what happened yesterday and I don't like that it happens all over the world on a daily basis but the point here is that it doesn't go unnoticed. It's not as if anyone entered an obviously lame horse into a race and hoped beyond hope that it made it out alive. The horses were entered with the hope that the training methods used would be enough to get the horse around the turns and then their heart would carry them over the line.

When Eight Belles went down I'm sure her connections immediately started questioning their choices but the fact of the matter is it may have been a freak accident or may have been caused by the surface or it may have been the filly's conformation or it may have been she was not ready physically or it may have been.... I'm sure you get the point.

Racing is not turning a blind eye and not pretending it didn't happen. They will do what they have to do but it's going to take time. Changes have already been made. More changes will come - that's a guarantee. It seems everyone wants a complete overhaul of the entire sport which just can't happen-at least not over night and unfortunately more tragedy will face us before it gets there. For those that upset and that "so done with racing" the best thing they can do is express that to the powers that be of racing otherwise their "boycott" is useless.

[Equilibrium]

I'd like to comment on some of the things Sporthorsefilly said with regards to breeding. I believe bone development is more than just picking the right stallion. Proper nutrition and being out most of the time really do play an important part. Proper nutrition as in lay off the carbs and balance the vits and mins with what is in your forage and if you don't know what's in your forage, find out. I try to support growth, not hinder or over develop. My 2 2yo's in training this year couldn't be more diffrent in the way they matured. One was much slower than the other but feeding him more was not going to get him there. We just let him do his growing in his time and supported this growth. What they both have is the most incredible bone my trainer has ever seen on babies. I really hate seeing big fat yearlings at sales. Big soft horses that have a huge muscle mass on spindly legs because they've been fed too much and they've been in too much.

As for racehorses loving what they do, most do. Take my loon of a broodmare who ran off and on til she was 7. She has an ankle like a basketball. Yet whose the one who gallops around like a banshee most days complete with screaming whinny's, the loon that's who. She loves running. We do a lot to keep her right and she's worth all of it. You have to admire her love of everything, such a happy mare.

And as far as other sports not having the throw away horses. My husband has an ISH rather cheaply because he's a cribber, was a rearer, and a very serious bucker. I watched and rode the horse during his baby years. He had a young girl intent on making him a dressage horse. For 1 1/2 hours per day all they did was annoy him. If he didn't get something they just forced and forced. They'd get pissed off, kick him, slap him with the reins ect. So annoying to watch never mind being the horse. Well he just got fet up and gave back a little of what he was getting and then became a danger. You just don't hear about the sour horses in other sports. Quite a few jumpers are washed up by 6 and 7 but I don't see any rescues for other sports. Such as, meet Jake he's a 6 yo very well bred jumper, he's not going to make the big time as his jump isn't what it's supposed to be but we'd like to find him a good home, one that won't jump him because he doesn't jump anymore. These horses are out there but no one talks about them. I'm not slamming jumpers because I breed them too, just lets acknowledge the fact other sports have issues. It's much easier for them to sweep them under the carpet. Oh and ISH is happy now as he has my husband as his rider. Foxhunting is now his thing, not dressage, my husband doesn't do dressage. Many horses enjoy career changes, not just racehorses.

Terri

[Sabine]

They are born and bred to run, they love it . If not for racing they would not be. If you don't like it don't watch. Go save a seal or a tree.

I think you are absolutely right- and I think there are a lot of folks here posting that are 'in' the race horse industry- and they make their living this way and that's fine.

It's more the rules of the size of the track - the age the horse has to be running on it- the qualifications required and the rest time and size/weight/vital measurement requirements that are necessary to assure that a colt/filly can actually survive a race and be half way ok...that's all those non-race folks want- me included- some chance of fairness and survival.
If horses have to be put down consistently - then there is something wrong- in the program- with the breeding- or somewhere...and it DOES NEED TO BE FIXED!

[Acertainsmile]

It is a fact that when young horses are put through grueling training and physical strain when their bones and bodies are not fully developed are much more prone to injuries- some minor, some fatal. I'm not saying the racing industry is the only that starts horses too young- they just get the most publicity for it. I'm not against racing- I'm against racing these horses far too young. It would be more beneficial for the horse's soundness and welfare to start racing intensive training/racing when they are fully developed- around the age of 4-5 years old. Obviously I care about the horses more than anything, but this is coming more from a scientific viewpoint than an emotional one. It is a fact that the body of a thoroughbred is not fully mature until they are between 4 and 5 years old.



Studies done by The Animal Health Trust in England have shown that by age three, tendon and cartilage development in the horse has basically stopped. As a two year old, you can increase tendon and cartilage strength and resilience with proper conditioning, but by three, all changes tend to become degenerative, rather than adaptive. Bone development is much the same. Dr. Nunamaker at New Bolton Center did the definative study on shin development in the young horse several years ago, which showed that proper training methods in the young horse could completely prevent the incindence of tiny microfractures of the cannon bone, known as "bucked shins". This is very important, because bucked shins can often lead to saucer fracture leter in life. Young bone adapts and grows stronger more easily in response to stress than bone in an older horse. Older horses have a greater risk of fracture, instead of remodeling in response to the stresses of training and racing.
Oddly enough, the New Bolton study showed that proper bone conditioning was achieved by adding speed early on in the training process, as opposed to long slow mileage. The bone only develops to withstand the amount of strain put on it by training, so by giving the young horse long slow gallops, the bone never develops enough to withstand speed work. The key is to add short bursts of speed at the end of the gallop a few times a week during early training, and gradually increase the amount of work done at speed as training progresses.

[Anne FS]

You sure about that? A number of folks noticed he [Big Brown] looked "off" after the race.

There was a very quick shot of him walking off, unsaddled, no blanket of roses, and he did look very ouchy. It was quite pronounced and you sort of expected the commentators to say something but it was quiet and the camera quickly went elsewhere. It was surprising to see and I just wondered...Is that what you saw?

[BansheeBreeze]

Studies done by The Animal Health Trust in England have shown that by age three, tendon and cartilage development in the horse has basically stopped. As a two year old, you can increase tendon and cartilage strength and resilience with proper conditioning, but by three, all changes tend to become degenerative, rather than adaptive. Bone development is much the same. Dr. Nunamaker at New Bolton Center did the definative study on shin development in the young horse several years ago, which showed that proper training methods in the young horse could completely prevent the incindence of tiny microfractures of the cannon bone, known as "bucked shins". This is very important, because bucked shins can often lead to saucer fracture leter in life. Young bone adapts and grows stronger more easily in response to stress than bone in an older horse. Older horses have a greater risk of fracture, instead of remodeling in response to the stresses of training and racing.
Oddly enough, the New Bolton study showed that proper bone conditioning was achieved by adding speed early on in the training process, as opposed to long slow mileage. The bone only develops to withstand the amount of strain put on it by training, so by giving the young horse long slow gallops, the bone never develops enough to withstand speed work. The key is to add short bursts of speed at the end of the gallop a few times a week during early training, and gradually increase the amount of work done at speed as training progresses.

THANK YOU. At the barn I worked in, we got in a couple of 4 year old mares that had done NOTHING, owners ran out of money and the horses were out to pasture til the end of their 4 year old year. When they started training, they cropped with WORSE issues than the 2 year olds that had come in. People harken back to the 'old days' of training when horses lasted longer. Well, those horses ran ALOT more than the 2 year olds of today, and instead of 2 year old sale breezes they actually had YEARLING "trials" to see which of the babies was the best of their crop. 2 year old champions frequently garnered accolades as 3 year olds, and races like the Futurity for 2 year olds were some of the riches and most important races. So, I don't buy into the whole "racing too young" problem.

In my opinion, it comes down to breeding unsoundness over HUNDREDS OF YEARS(this is not anything new, it's just finally catching up), hot housing babies for sales instead of letting them run around a pasture and develop, the influx of racing partnerships that are out for profit vs the death of the great breeders who raced their own horses(honestly, how many quality homebreds do you see nowadays?), and ironically enough, advances in vetrinary medicine that allow a horse to continue training. Back when, if a horse was sore or injured, they were basically turned out til they recovered. Now you can just give them some drugs or inject them and keep training. I don't believe tracks are at fault, with the advances in track maintenance over the years, I have a hard time believing that tracks nowadays are harder on horses than ones 100 years ago when they were basically racing on a plowed field. But the horses HAVE gotten weaker. Synthetic surfaces may help but they are not THE answer.

Racing needs to do something about the breeding industry and the medication issue for certain. They would have to have to deal with an abundance of unwanted horses(which is an issue they should deal with anyways) and short term it would be difficult, but would be immensely better for the sport in the long run.

[2 tbs]

There was a very quick shot of him walking off, unsaddled, no blanket of roses, and he did look very ouchy. It was quite pronounced and you sort of expected the commentators to say something but it was quiet and the camera quickly went elsewhere. It was surprising to see and I just wondered...Is that what you saw?

Well, it's hard to say as lots of folks here have seen that, myself included. I thought "is he off" but with everything happening I didn't know if it was from the spook or what--sort of a hard angle too and he was semi bouncing along. When his rider remounted after the spook he did look back at the right hind for a moment but then went back to jogging off.

It has been stated openly that BB has terrible feet and that even though all was well going into the race they very much expected it to not be well coming out of the race. Hopefully that's all it is. Time will tell as he will either be scratched from the Preakness or he'll run.

[springer]

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. Take the Op with you please.

A little DEFENSIVE perhaps?????????

This quote from the Washington Post kinda sums things up, IMO:
"Horses are being over bred and over raced, until their bodies cannot support their own ambitions, or those of the humans who race them"
Sally Jenkins
Washington Post
May 4, 2008

[rabicon]

I have a question, please don't flame me. :sadsmile: I never come on this forum because well I really don't know ANYTHING about racing. I've been to Keeneland last year and it was the only race I'd ever been to.

But

My question is Why do they start the TB so young? What was the orginial thinking behind this? Are they just that much faster when their young? Would the race not be as exciting if the youngest race was a group of 4 year olds? Just wondering. I know Western does it to in the futurities and I think its to young for those horses also but you hear such a different side about the race world. That the owners don't care, its all about the money, if the horse can't do it then they are sent to slaughter or rescues if they are lucky. You don't see that happening with western futurity horses really. This is a serious question and I'm just trying to understand. thanks

[solargal]

I have a question, please don't flame me. :sadsmile: I never come on this forum because well I really don't know ANYTHING about racing. I've been to Keeneland last year and it was the only race I'd ever been to.

But

My question is Why do they start the TB so young? What was the orginial thinking behind this? Are they just that much faster when their young? Would the race not be as exciting if the youngest race was a group of 4 year olds? Just wondering. I know Western does it to in the futurities and I think its to young for those horses also but you hear such a different side about the race world. That the owners don't care, its all about the money, if the horse can't do it then they are sent to slaughter or rescues if they are lucky. You don't see that happening with western futurity horses really. This is a serious question and I'm just trying to understand. thanks


Please read post #109 for your answer.

People don't understand if horses didn't get any intense training till they were late 3 or 4 your would have a lot of problems. Everyone that we got that had been turned out, forgotten about and never wore a saddle until over half-way through it's 3 yr old year, could not hold up to racing. Their bones just couldnt' handle it. It is a trainer's job to know when to push and when to stop. Unfortunately, as in all disciplines there are good and bad trainers.

[spooked]

I only read a small portion of the original post and it bothers me that people jump on the bandwagon that have no clue about racing. When a horse breaks down IT IS TRAGIC, no doubt. But injuries (fatal and non-fatal) happen. It happens in all aspects of horses. My OTTB retired sound at 7 from racing, I turned him out in a paddock and he severly fractured his pelvis and had to be PTS, so do I never turn out another horse because a tragedy could happen? I could get killed/maimed or paralyzed from being around horses, because I do something I love, should I go live in a bubble?

Note to self: don't post when PJ (who I bred) runs because some idiot that doesn't know me or how badly he is spoiled, will tell me I'm horrible.

[regret]

I am really getting so annoyed at the slams on the racing industry. Most of the horses that are involved in racing are very well treated.

[Lora]

Flame suit zipped, but I feel like this is something that SOMEONE needs to say.

I, too, am crushed by what happened to Eight Belles...but unlike a whole lot of people who want to canonize her connections and wrap them in sympathy, I am furious with them. I do a handicapping sheet that I circulate to a rather large requestor list as a hobby, and in my sheet I actually said that I bet she'd be ruined as a racehorse after this and might never race again. And it turned out so much worse than even I thought - because I underestimated her HEART, but not her body...

This filly was not properly prepared for the Derby. Period. She was the only HORSE in the field of 20 who had never even attempted a 1 and 1/8 distance. She had never faced Grade 1 Stakes competition. She had never run against colts. And they throw her in to this 20 horse madness, and she just outran what her body could handle. Recall that Winning Colors and Genuine Risk had both run against colts before their Derby attempt - and beat them - at longer distances. We owners of thoroughbreds know that there is a burden on us as owners not to overface them, because they are likely to try what we ask, wise or doable or not, with the work ethic they have that seems a part of their genetics. Her connections did not look out for her here - they wanted a Derby horse, already had their Oaks starter, so they sacrificed a great filly to get one. As all this sympathy pours out for them, I just feel anger towards them for doing so wrong by her.

fyi - on another site it was posted by people that were watching the derby horses train that she looked sore behind???? and did not look good.

[DickHertz]

My question is Why do they start the TB so young?

$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$

[sisu27]

Eight Belles was not "injured" as the TV people say. She was murdered by the racing industry which insists on running TBs too young on too hard surfaces too fast. Barbaro and Eight Belles and Ruffian and Go For Wand, wasn't she the one who broke a leg in the Breeder's Cub Distaff along with 2 other horses dying in Breeder's Cup races that day? And every day in training horses break their legs at tracks all over the country. But it is not convenient financially to wait till horses are 4 or 5, and train them on turf and run them on turf. So the racing industry will continue to kill and kill, and the unknowing public will be told about "missteps" and "injuries" and continue to rmanticize horse racing. My mare survived 3 yrs on the track, and amazingly was sound. Go watch horse racing for a few days at any track, and watch the horses "break down". Let's see, what if we bred horses with gasp, bigger bones, and not those llittle spindly legs, and if we waited till their bones developed and matured??? nahhh, racing cannot be bothered with that. :eek:

[edit] Bet you think eventers are murderers as well eh? My eventer is an OTTB that raced for 5 years...you must feel really sorry for him, escapes the dangers of racing to be thrown into the perils of eventing. I am cruel.

I hate what happened at the Derby. I hate what happened at Rolex. We all do. BUT...you need to direct your energy elsewhere and get a grip. How about the back yard breeders breeding [crap to crap] and then are unable to afford to feed them? How about all the horses that live miserable lives and suffer at the hands of abusive idiots? Maybe you should try to get slaughter reinstated in your country so these same poor souls are not subjected to one last miserable, terrifying truck ride to be slaughtered up here in CAN or down in Mexico?

I'd love to see some improvement in all horse sport towards safety but if you think the racing industry is the most hideous thing that can happen to a horse you need to wake up. And if you really feel this passionately then get off your ass, up from your computer and go do something about it.

I get that actually seeing these things happen illicits an emotional response in people but that doesn't make it ok to come onto a public forum and dismiss an entire industry as murderers.

[2 tbs]

$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$


Yes, money would be a big reason but it's not just cold hard cash and it's not the only reason.

Horse racing is a BUSINESS! It takes a lot of money to put a horse in training and keep it in training. Just like anything else in the world, if you want to turn a profit and make a living you have to get your product to the public asap. Horses are no different. I addressed this somewhere already.

Livestock are all the same. Chickens need to lay eggs, cattle need to produce milk, etc. If they don't they have to go. For the ones that are producing they need to produce asap so the consumer has their goods and the seller can afford to feed the livestock and the human family.

There is nothing different from a business perspective when it comes to horse racing. But again, that's not the only reason. How about the Jockey Club put official rules in place regarding races and age groups around 1814??? Can we say history of the sport? This is an age old game, the sport of kings, and it comes with quite an extensive background. It wasn't just eenie meenie miney moe when picking age groups.

[DickHertz]

Yes, money would be a big reason but it's not just cold hard cash and it's not the only reason.

Horse racing is a BUSINESS! It takes a lot of money to put a horse in training and keep it in training. Just like anything else in the world, if you want to turn a profit and make a living you have to get your product to the public asap. Horses are no different. I addressed this somewhere already.

Livestock are all the same. Chickens need to lay eggs, cattle need to produce milk, etc. If they don't they have to go. For the ones that are producing they need to produce asap so the consumer has their goods and the seller can afford to feed the livestock and the human family.

There is nothing different from a business perspective when it comes to horse racing. But again, that's not the only reason. How about the Jockey Club put official rules in place regarding races and age groups around 1814??? Can we say history of the sport? This is an age old game, the sport of kings, and it comes with quite an extensive background. It wasn't just eenie meenie miney moe when picking age groups.

I said $$$ - because everyone knows if you have a precocious 2 year old the races are really easy to win. Everyone wants to win easy races by having a mature 2 year old which is why they want to race them so young.

[2 tbs]

I said $$$ - because everyone knows if you have a precocious 2 year old the races are really easy to win. Everyone wants to win easy races by having a mature 2 year old which is why they want to race them so young.

I'm going to have to whole heartedly disagree with this. Does it make sense to get out there, make some money by winning early in the "easy" races? Sure. But that's not why they do it. Most trainers have a plan for a horse. They don't just enter into races for the sake of entering into races.

Again. This is a business. Not a joke. I'm sure there are some out there that don't care but for majority it is a means of making a living. They aren't going to do fly by the seat of their pants and hope for they best - they plan and they aim for the races based on the standards of the sport that have been set in stone for ages.

[wineberrywillie]

The Humane Society of the United States also weighed in Monday, arguing that horses are becoming more fragile because they’re being bred for speed, not durability.

“There are problems coming to light more than ever—problems related to breeding,” said Wayne Pacelle, Humane Society president. “Breeding too many horses, and waiting for someone else to clean up the problem. And breeding them for body characteristics that make these animals vulnerable to breakdowns, especially those spindly legs on top of these stout torsos.”

Dr. Larry Bramlage, the on-call veterinarian at Churchill Downs during the Derby, acknowledged there was merit to that argument. He suggested there should be more financial incentives for horses who display longevity, rather than just the ability to come up big in one huge race.

“The value of a horse is no longer related to how much he can win on the racetrack,” Bramlage said. “It’s related to how likely he can get you to one of those events. The breed creeps toward a faster and faster individual, but that individual may be brilliant because they have a lighter skeleton. We’re inadvertently selecting for the wrong thing.”


To consistently say, death is a "part of the sport" is no longer acceptable. That only condones the fatalities instead of working to correct or greatly limit the deaths. There are those who came to the charge for the greyhounds but we seem to turn a blind eye to horse racing, defending the casualties as "a part of the sport." The same goes for eventing (yes, I know I'll get flamed big time) as the results from recent USEA events proves there is room for improvement. When was the last time we heard of a Dressage horse being euthanized in the ring? Point being, we should not accept any the conditions in any sport whereas death can be a consequence.

Those who profess, "I'll never watch another race" only add to the problem. Your absence of viewership will not make a dent in the industry. Instead, champion the cause, unemotionally & intelligently, placing energies into making changes.

Those who defend the sport & it's casualties, put it into perspective. 2 out of 1000 horse died needlessly. Surely that is an underinflated figure as it does not include horses in exercise & I am doubtful that smaller tracks keep accurate figures.

[Showpony]

“The value of a horse is no longer related to how much he can win on the racetrack,” Bramlage said. “It’s related to how likely he can get you to one of those events. The breed creeps toward a faster and faster individual, but that individual may be brilliant because they have a lighter skeleton. We’re inadvertently selecting for the wrong thing.”


Wouldn't Big Brown be an example of that? He wins some huge races, maybe the triple crown, then is retired to stud to pass on his speed and bad feet. There probably are mares out there who also have bad feet but are fast and will be bred to him too that will compound the problem.

[EMWalker]

I just read this article of ESPN and even though it is by a sports writer it has many valid points.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3382235&sportCat=horse

I really believe that line-breeding has become a major problem for the TB horse industry.The racing gene pool is becoming so small and I personally think that this is why so many more breakdowns are happening today then ever before. Breeders need to get back to breeding not solely for speed but also for sturdiness and stamina.

This article goes into her pedigree and that her grandsire, Unbridled, all be it sires fast horse, he also has been known to sire brittle horses. Two of his breeding sons (Grindstone and Unbridles Song, Eight Belles sire) were retired due to leg injuries.

And yes, Big Brown has some horrible feet (I know all about quarter cracks having dealt with one the past two years with my low slung heeled warmblood) and just because he is big and fast will he really pass along the genes that the racing industry needs????

Anyway, RIP Eight Belles. If the Barbaro tragedy didn't open enough eyes, I really think this one did so maybe there is some light at the end of this.

[Anne FS]

The video link has Randy Moss saying upfront things like "PETA makes sense" and "I agree with PETA about some things" - for instance, the banning of whips.

During the interview RM said that PETA was totally wrong about the jockey (but we all knew that was just their brilliant this'll-get-the-wire-services-to-pick-up-the-story ploy).

He also said that the whip issue has been in discussion, that he wrote a column about it several weeks ago, and that he talked about the idea with Jerry Bailey, who agreed with him. IMHO he should've said that FIRST. I don't think everyone listened to the entire interview and what they'll remember is "PETA said" "PETA's idea" "PETA is right."

Those on here are exactly right who said RACING needs to have someone who will speak IMMEDIATELY after tragedies like Eight Belles'. Reporters need sources. They have to quote somebody. They have to. Like Larry Bramlage. Always on to give the veterinarian POV. In the absence of a racing spokesperson, they still need quotes, so who's there? PETA.

[Old Equine Lady]

I agree that breeding, the footing and the money all play a part. The issue as I see it is when are horse people going to wake up and start regulating themselves, before someone else does? That should be the first priority for all of us, setting up some rules that help prevent this kind of accident happening. Fix the footing, limit the age vs. length and work towards making the money out of a longer lasting racer, instead of a quick one with breeding as the final goal.

[Laurierace]

The video link has Randy Moss saying upfront things like "PETA makes sense" and "I agree with PETA about some things" - for instance, the banning of whips.

During the interview RM said that PETA was totally wrong about the jockey (but we all knew that was just their brilliant this'll-get-the-wire-services-to-pick-up-the-story ploy).

He also said that the whip issue has been in discussion, that he wrote a column about it several weeks ago, and that he talked about the idea with Jerry Bailey, who agreed with him. IMHO he should've said that FIRST. I don't think everyone listened to the entire interview and what they'll remember is "PETA said" "PETA's idea" "PETA is right."

Those on here are exactly right who said RACING needs to have someone who will speak IMMEDIATELY after tragedies like Eight Belles'. Reporters need sources. They have to quote somebody. They have to. Like Larry Bramlage. Always on to give the veterinarian POV. In the absence of a racing spokesperson, they still need quotes, so who's there? PETA.

I kid you not, there was a reporter from the Washington Post wandering around the backside at Pimlico this afternoon "interviewing" the drunks. I can only imagine what that article is going to look like.