Big Brown [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

bascher

May. 3, 2008, 06:22 PM

What a horse. I really hope the filly is okay, it made me sick to see her laying there.

I thought I saw that I'm listening to the ESPN radio cause my TV doesn't have any sound right now...looks like an ambulance out there right now? Is that what they are focusing on? Gosh I hope she's ok.

Farnfield_Dressage

May. 3, 2008, 06:22 PM

eight belles was 2nd right? what a filly!!!

dezeq85

May. 3, 2008, 06:22 PM

I guess it happened when she pulled up. Big Brown spooked at something and they think that is what did it. Although this is all hearsay from the announcers.
The vet is getting the info now. I hope shes ok.

bascher

May. 3, 2008, 06:23 PM

Jerry Bailey says that the filly collapsed...he said he saw her lying on the ground for about five minutes and didn't move once. He's pretty worried.

dezeq85

May. 3, 2008, 06:23 PM

I guess she just suddenly fell. Apparently she didn't get back up. The jockey is up. The ambulance is there. SHe broke both front ankles
she is euthanized.

Farnfield_Dressage

May. 3, 2008, 06:23 PM

RIP eight belles

bascher

May. 3, 2008, 06:23 PM

The vet is talking...but I have no sound! Can anyone update?

Larksmom

May. 3, 2008, 06:24 PM

euthenized immediately
:no:

dezeq85

May. 3, 2008, 06:26 PM

How sad. At least she didn't suffer to long.

Drvmb1ggl3

May. 3, 2008, 07:10 PM

This horse is a monster. I can't say I've seen one this good in a long while. The scary thing is he still looks a bit immature, like he could get better.

findeight

May. 3, 2008, 07:22 PM

Too bad the filly literally ran her legs off trying to catch him...I think she did something about a furlong from the finish, you can see her head go up. I thought she was just exhausted and backing up.:no: Won't cash the ticket I had on her either.

You know, back to BB, you can say he had the perfect trip (he did). You can say, and they will, it was a weak crop (like they did when Secretariat was running). But that was one hell of a kick at the top of the stretch that accelerated down the stretch, one fresh horse that spooked when the filly went down right behind him.

Only seen that kind of kick a few times, Secretariat was one. Cigar was another...a freight train rolling down hill, they kick in and just build on that speed every step. Overwhelming. Hope his glue ons stay on and he doesn't step on a safety pin.

Polyturf??? Might have helped Chelokee yesterday, don't know if it would have helped this gallant filly that, really, ran her heart out.

Foxtrot's

May. 3, 2008, 07:23 PM

He's sure got the butt to work off, if not the feet. Bring it on Preakness and Belmont, we'll be watching. It was especially gratifying to see after hearing his jockey's concerns over his son Jacob.

QHJockee

May. 3, 2008, 08:02 PM

What a tremendous effort by the big bay UPS truck - once again Brown Gets It Done!

So happy for David Carroll for going from 20th to 3rd, a game effort and very happy to have known david for a long time!

Also way to go Ragin Cajun's...2 years in a row for the bayou jocks!

Lady Counselor

May. 3, 2008, 08:27 PM

He was actually my second choice, but he sure ran like a monster. I loved Colonel John, but he checked really sharply going down the lane the first time. Looked like he was just full of run with noplace to take it. Lost all chance having to sit down like that.
It's too bad the Derby is always 20 horses now. It's an absolute mess when they come out of the gate the first time. You don't always get the best horse winning it anymore. Luck is taking a too large percent of the outcome now.

farmgirl88

May. 3, 2008, 08:31 PM

Big Brown looks quite off when walking on the turf afterwards

VirginiaBred

May. 3, 2008, 08:35 PM

Big Brown looks quite off when walking on the turf afterwards

I think a lot of us noticed that. I hope he's alright. What a great race he had!!!

dressagetraks

May. 3, 2008, 08:43 PM

Agree on 20 horses too many. I switched off right after the finish line and back to work, didn't see the filly go down, but I remember thinking during the race at the first turn that there were a couple in major traffic problems right then. Churchill has been lucky. The fact that you can fit 20 horses in the starting gate across their track doesn't mean that you should. And to think they did 23 or so in Cannonade's Derby. I can't imagine.

Very impressive race by BB. But I still hate the name. ;)

Lady Counselor

May. 3, 2008, 08:46 PM

I turned off the TV before they made it back to the winners circle. Hope he's OK. I also hope Dutrow can be strong enough to be able to decide to not run in the Preakness if BB needs some extra time to be right. I'd like to see this guy around for a long time. The pressure to make it to all three races is enormous, and will be piling on from all sides.
Wait until he lives through the next couple of weeks. I've heard it's intense.

Larksmom

May. 3, 2008, 08:47 PM

he could be the best chance for a triple in years. He is a freak. No problem from gate 20, no problem going wide all the way around. I think I am beginning to agree. Bring on Pimlico, and in the fall, BRING ON CURLIN!!!!!!

AppJumpr08

May. 3, 2008, 09:10 PM

Any word on his soundness? He really did run a fantastic race - such a powerful guy!!!

Foxtrot's

May. 3, 2008, 09:16 PM

I'd love to see him try for the triple - but they say his feet have cracks in them, so hope he can do the work required.

AppJumpr08

May. 3, 2008, 09:19 PM

wicked cool picture (http://sports.yahoo.com/rah/photo?slug=02e2e48604545d5e27b81a37eec8f8f6-getty-78107653kd025_134th_kentuck&prov=getty)

jewll27

May. 3, 2008, 09:26 PM

ok again I ask, does ANYONE KNOW how tall he is?? I cant find it anywhere and its driving me nuts!! :winkgrin:

Kenike

May. 3, 2008, 09:30 PM

I'd have to guess he's probably 16.1 or 2....but I haven't even attempted to look it up. Bad on me.

I was so irritated at Dutrow that, although I liked this horse a LOT, I was hoping he'd not actually win. Watching that race, holy moley!! He deserved it beyond anything!! I hope he's okay, and sound, I fear for his feet.

ASB Stars

May. 4, 2008, 09:34 AM

Well, in my only bright moment from the dismal day, I had a friend who was at the race box Big Brown- so I won for all three places! This is the second time I have had someone bet for me- I won't go to a track- the last time was Gate Dancer's Preakness. I figured Angel Cordero could make him steer, if anyone could...so I am batting 1000%! Yahoo!

buryinghill4

May. 4, 2008, 03:05 PM

Yeah UPS!
Totally cool to see a UPS logo on a jockey's silks. I remember reading the throughbred industry has been totally against sponsor logos on racing attire (silks, pads, bridles...). Why not have jocks looking like NASCAR drivers? :winkgrin: I got a laugh when the jock took off his helmet (while on the horse!) and donned a UPS cap. I hope he donates that cap to charity - so it may be auctioned. Like some thoroughbred rescue organization.
As a former UPS driver, I admire the company. Tough people, but it really is the best.

A 20 horse field is absurd. I was sure someone was going to go down within the first half mile. Amazing there were no falls, but I did see some whoaing going on when the pack first got organized. A couple of jerk on reins when the looked like they were going to clip the horse in front.

Superb ride. Well planned.

What can Brown do for you?
Win the triple crown :lol:

Drvmb1ggl3

May. 4, 2008, 04:04 PM

A 20 horse field is absurd. I was sure someone was going to go down within the first half mile. Amazing there were no falls, but I did see some whoaing going on when the pack first got organized.

How many accidents have you seen in 20 horse fields, that were traffic related?

Larksmom

May. 4, 2008, 04:17 PM

I do not know how many accidents happen, but I think Afleet Alex nearly went down, and so did Alysheba. Those were traffic related. After watching alot of British Racing, this last year on the Dish, [which they don't seem to show anymore], They don't run in circles. They run in both directions, and over hill and dale. They also run mostly on turf. Traffic is a MAJOR problem when running around an oval track. Did you see the BC race last year when one of the Brit horses just went crazy and ran to the rail taking Precious Kitten and another with her? Is isn't feasable I supose to run that way here, but it is interesting to see them run in a nearly straight line.
:cool:

Drvmb1ggl3

May. 4, 2008, 04:25 PM

I do not know how many accidents happen, but I think Afleet Alex nearly went down, and so did Alysheba.
:cool:

Why don't you tell the class how many horses were in Afleet Alex's Preakness?
Hint: it was a lot less than 20.
It also happened on the final turn with the rest of the field behind him and Scrappy T. So I'm really not sure what your point is/was as it had nothing to do with a large field and traffic.

As to racing overseas not being tight... have you ever seen a 25+ horse field going around Tattenham corner (which is not only tight, but downhill) at Epsom, the home of the Derby?

Glimmerglass

May. 6, 2008, 09:47 PM

I know everyone raves about Big Brown's speed, but isn't that somewhat a clouded view just relative to this otherwise bland class of runners?

Look at the Beyer Speed Figs for the Derby vs. prior years; plus the final running time. I'm not exactly seeing Spend A Buck-esq rocket speed (1985 KY Derby in 2:00.20) here.

(Spend A Buck as folks may recall skipped the Preakness and Belmont opting for at the time the richest purse in American racing the Jersey Derby (held during the same TC period) for $2.6 million, which he won.)

2008: final time 2:01.82
1st Big Brown 109
2nd Eight Belles 102
3rd Denis of Cork 97

2007: final time 2:02.17
1st Street Sense 110
2nd Hard Spun 107
3rd Curlin 98

2006 final time 2:01.36
1st Barbaro 111
2nd Bluegrass Cat 101
3rd Steppenwolfer 98

2005 final time 2:02.75
1st Giacomo 100
2nd Closing Argument 99
3rd Afleet Alex 98

2004 final time 2:04.06
1st Smarty Jones 107
2nd Lion Heart 102
3rd Imperialism 97

2003 final time 2:01.19
1st Funny Cide 109
2nd Empire Maker 106
3rd Peace Rules 106

2002 final time corrected in edit to 2:01.13
1st War Emblem 114
2nd Proud Citizen 108
3rd Perfect Drift 107

2001 final time corrected in edit to 1:59.97
1st Monarchos 116
2nd Invisible Ink 109
3rd Congaree 109

Flypony

May. 6, 2008, 11:58 PM

This horse should be the reason people want to talk about horse racing. Too bad that human nature and the need to be right force people, pardon the pun.... to beat a dead horse. Really who cares what you all think was done wrong managing the filly, she ran a monster race and had a freak accident, but now folks are out to save the racehorse....so be it. But if you do buy one why do you care of it's history? You saved it...right? So why do you want to know how many times it has been abused (starts). Go away now we can live without you at the track. The comments on here are also the reason I will not sell my race horses to the general public when they are done racing, only people I know get them or they are put down, not canned. You kinda people create racetrackers like Dale Baird, it's easier to dispose of the horse than listen too cookey old women.

Drvmb1ggl3

May. 7, 2008, 04:28 AM

2002 final time 1:59.97
1st War Emblem 114
2nd Proud Citizen 108
3rd Perfect Drift 107

2001 final time 2:01.00
1st Monarchos 116
2nd Invisible Ink 109
3rd Congaree 109

Glimmer, I think you may have the times mixed up for Monarchos, he definitely broke the 2min barrier, I believe the only winner since the big red machine in '73 to do so (ignoring Sham's finishing time of course).

As to Big Brown's time, well on the face of it it may not seem fast, but considering he broke from the 20 hole and ran anywhere from 4 to 6 wide for most of the race, he covered way more ground than a usual Derby winner does, I'd say somewhere between 50 and 100ft more, plus he was held with no great pace being made in the race, so I'd cut him some slack on the time. In a straight up time trial I bet he'd put a serious dint in the clock.
His manner of winning was very impressive. Which brings us to one of the sad parts of this Derby, as Flypony has pointed out, no one is talking about how awesome his victory was.... he should be the reason people are talking about horseracing.

findeight

May. 7, 2008, 08:42 AM

I dunno Glimmer...that 109 is decent enough even if the time was no where near the record.

You could play devil's advocate here and say he has not been pushed because of low figures from the others in the field and the overall crop of 3 year olds...how fast would he have gone with a Sham or Alydar grinding at his heels? Or matched with a speedster quick out of the gate like War Emblem?

Who knows.

IMO he is fast, very fast, with an impressive kick. At least he was last weekend...trick is can he repeat against decent if not great company.

I am with you on being underwhelmed by the "stunning" victories in 2 allowance races making up 50% of his resume as well as the bad feet with glue on shoes.

I'll bet to beat him in the Preakness-and hope he wins it anyway.

Glimmerglass

May. 7, 2008, 08:46 AM

Glimmer, I think you may have the times mixed up for Monarchos, he definitely broke the 2min barrier, I believe the only winner since the big red machine in '73 to do so (ignoring Sham's finishing time of course).

Yikes - you are correct in that error - I'll change it up above:

Source: KD final times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Derby)

Glimmerglass

May. 7, 2008, 08:54 AM

I dunno Glimmer...that 109 is decent enough even if the time was no where near the record.

Valid point with speed often coming from another rival bringing it out and no I'm suggesting we need to see acceleration on display just because. However I think from reading a few of the articles on him there seems to be this suggestion (beyond the fact that he's gotten up to being the class leader with ease and against all odds) that he's the fastest thing since Seattle Slew if not Dr. Fager.

Dominant, yes. Seemingly able to take on every historical obstacle put in his way, yes so far. The fastest horse since the Dr, no. [Pun unintended] As posed to me by my brother-in-law do you think we're seeing the next Secretariat? I said you might be seeing the next TC winner but over his career I doubt he'll be as durable as Secretariat was at three with the number of starts.

ravenclaw

May. 7, 2008, 11:16 AM

As to Big Brown's time, well on the face of it it may not seem fast, but considering he broke from the 20 hole and ran anywhere from 4 to 6 wide for most of the race, he covered way more ground than a usual Derby winner does, I'd say somewhere between 50 and 100ft more, plus he was held with no great pace being made in the race, so I'd cut him some slack on the time. In a straight up time trial I bet he'd put a serious dint in the clock.
I wasn't all that impressed with Big Brown's time, but wasn't it also quite windy at Churchill Downs that day? Maybe the wind died down by race time, but at the beginning of the broadcast they were saying there were 20-25 mph winds. So I was willing to cut Big Brown some slack because of the wind and his wide trip. We saw in the Florida Derby that he can run really fast. :yes:

Texarkana

May. 7, 2008, 11:23 AM

The final time was not bad at all considering the circumstances. It seemed pretty visible he had a little something extra in the tank that he could have flashed if necessary.

Time only matters when you're in jail. ;)

...but you won't catch me making any TC prophecies. That's just silly at this point.

findeight

May. 7, 2008, 11:35 AM

He is no Secretariat.

He will not be as good a stud prospect as Secretariat was with those feet either...or retiring the second he steps off the Belmont track...or he shouldn't, anyway.

Not the second coming of anything or anybody. Just a very fast horse that is really untested.

One thing though...Glimmer, don't know how old you are but I was a young adult at the time of Secretariats races. Despite the record times...all the pundits proclaimed him the "Best of a bad lot", "A sign of the decline of the industry" and, of course "Bold Rulers are a flash in the pan, horse du jour, can't get the distance. Everybody knows that".

It's not like they admitted he was a superhorse the second he stepped on the track, despite stunning good looks. He had to prove it.

Those in the know will sit back and see if BB proves anything at all here or is just this year's flash in the pan, horse du jour et al.

Methinks he's a looker all right and methinks he is fast and can hold up speedwise to most of what's running today-yesterday is not important. His huge question is crappy feet which, I fear, will doom him to the might have been column with many others who stepped on safety pins or spiked a fever taking them out of these subsequent races and we will never know.

I remain skeptical but would love to see it happen regardless of his place ranked against past champions.

Glimmerglass

May. 7, 2008, 11:59 AM

One thing though...Glimmer, don't know how old you are but I was a young adult at the time of Secretariats races. Despite the record times...all the pundits proclaimed him the "Best of a bad lot", "A sign of the decline of the industry" and, of course "Bold Rulers are a flash in the pan, horse du jour, can't get the distance. Everybody knows that".

I'm by no means that young :) However Sports Illustrated's racing author Whitney Tower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitney_Tower), who then created the short lived Classic magazine focused on horses in various sporting roles including a rather significant racing coverage part. Tower in a 1977 edition of Classic listed the top 10 horses in the (then) last 25 years today. Secretariat was not listed and Tower said his victories while noted are impressive were off set by his multiple losses and no 4-year season. Thus he couldn't be vaulted into that elite company.

horselips

May. 7, 2008, 12:28 PM

I'm by no means that young :) However Sports Illustrated's racing author Whitney Tower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitney_Tower), who then created the short lived Classic magazine focused on horses in various sporting roles including a rather significant racing coverage part. Tower in a 1977 edition of Classic listed the top 10 horses in the (then) last 25 years today. Secretariat was not listed and Tower said his victories while noted are impressive were off set by his multiple losses and no 4-year season. Thus he couldn't be vaulted into that elite company.

Ooooh! I still have 4 issues of that magazine! I remember the "dream race" line-up; who would beat who - Man O' War, Citation, War Admiral, Affirmed, etc.? The writer picked Big Cy as best...

Of course, I also have about 2 or 3 years of Turf & Sport Digest from the mid-70's...

findeight

May. 7, 2008, 12:32 PM

What's up with Dutrow saying he can't train a horse for a specific race in less then 40 days? Preprepared excuses?

And then saying he recalls how great Secretariat was and the high quality field he competed against and how he knew it when he saw him yadayadayada...he would have been about 12, if that. Reading too much of what has been written lately, not enough of what was written then.

Texarkana

May. 7, 2008, 12:44 PM

What's up with Dutrow saying he can't train a horse for a specific race in less then 40 days? Preprepared excuses?

I've noticed the same thing and it also irks me. It took about 5 minutes after his Derby win for him to start making excuses for the Preakness. It makes me feel like he's trying to shift the blame onto the "public" and the "system" if the horse doesn't perform to expectations.

I can understand feeling worried about running back so quickly, but if he legitly feels it's a big problem, he should express his concerns to his owners. He knew the deal going in and he shouldn't try to put the blame on all of us!

But I think I've been reading too much, too. So take that with a grain of salt. :lol: