Personal "rider responsibility"

[gillenwaterfarm]

I spoke with a bunch of eventers and non-eventers alike at Rolex this year about the question of rider responsibility. The general consensus was that there needs to be more rider responsibility and honest, if not critical, assessment as to if they are ready for what they are attempting.

So, what does this mean for ME?

First of all, I'm not going to give up on eventing. I searched long and hard to find a horse sport I could enjoy, and now that I've found it, I'm here for life. I enjoy the challenge of putting in an excellent dressage test, then powering over SJ fences clean and clear, then polishing it off by tackling the challenge of XC, galloping and jumping with my partner.

Second, I'm going to continue to listen to my partner. Mac is a great horse, who loves to jump. If he ever says "NO" about a question on a course, I'll be listening... I'll raise my hand and be done for the day.

I'm still setting my long term goal to be running the T3D, but I'm not going to put a date on that completion. I'm going to spend more time at Beginner Novice, and not move on until I'm totally bored with the fences and courses. I am mandating that I must score a 36 or below in Dressage, AND finish on it 3 times, before I'll let myself think about being ready for the "leap" to Novice.

At Novice, I will have to finish on my Double Clear 36 or below 4 times before considering the step up to T. I plan to spend a minimum of 2 years at T, but must first finish on my 36 or below 5 times before attempting the T3D. I accept the fact that this may take more then 2 years, but its a sacrifice I'm willing and happy to make.

I'm also going to require I keep myself fit, and put more emphasis on my riding skills. I will focus on schooling more and competing less. I'll participate in as many clinics and lessons as I can, and I'll further my education as much as possible.

Anyone else?

[riderboy]

Yes, there is no other equestrian sport for me. I love the sport, I love the people in the sport, I love the horses in the sport and most importantly I love the food served at the shows! Seriously, where else can you have that Walter Mitty moment and pretend, just for a second, that you are riding with Jeb Stuarts cavalry cross country. I KNOW my horse loves it-can you imagine how cruel it would be to just do dressage or the dulling routine of stadium ALL the time? Not for me or him, sister. Nope, I am committed to this thing through and through. I want the sport safer for everyone because it's the right thing to do. But I have to do my part first,foremost and always. Not push horses along fast for resale, idiotic "points" or some ego trip. By the way my horse was sired by Grey Macha. Any relation to your boy?

[Eventer55]

Another eventer for life here, but I have a question: since you brought up the rider responsibility issue; why is CMP coming under such fire? If you walk the course and it looks too difficult for you , or your horse and time after time you find his courses to be "extreme" why wasn't something done a long time ago. A lot of people seem to be very anti CMP now, why all of a sudden?

I will never go beyond training, but my horse might so I'm very concerned about the safety issue. I will choose my instructors and courses as if my horse's life depended on it.

[thumbsontop]

I agree. My daughter would love to go novice this year, but my "rule" was that the pony still doesn't care for ditches - tends to scramble. Sorry, you can't just pick a novice event with no ditch. Mastering ALL of the skills and questions of BN is going to happen first. Also, the pony needs to truly be ready for Novice dressage. It may not be beautiful, but having been in scoring at a HT, I would never want to see "Homework to be done at home. Not ready for this level." on a dressage test.

[Little Valkyrie]

I, like you plan to continue on with eventing because I have a wonderful partner and I really enjoy the sport when it is done safely and correctly. We owe it to our horses to not only be riders, but horseman. Not only can we help them by riding them and working with them under saddle, but work with them in hand and learn all you can about your horse. I plan on preparing my mare for just about everything she is going to see on a training course, and if the course is not going well, listen to my instincts and call it a day. Nothing is worth loosing her. I will not put her at risk to help my own competetive career, and I will not bring her to events or move up to a level that I think she is not prepared for. I will always listen to my coach's advice, and train with people who are not there to tell you how wonderful you look and how lovely your horse is, but to teach you valuable information to improve your riding and horsemanship. I will prepare so that I never have a hail mary course, at any level. I never want gallop down to a fence wondering if we are going to make it or not. Through pony club, I will enhance my own riding and horse management skills, so that I feel prepared to take on the inevitable minor and major ailments of horses. I will also not lock myslef into the sport of eventing. I will continue to go to dressage shows and jumper shows, as well as continue fox hunting, because its the best way to get your natural balance on a horse. The best way we can repay our horses for what they do for us is to make sure they have the best care possible and they have a rider who is thinking and caring about the safety of both.
*off soapbox*

[4Martini]

Well, I'm thinking about buying some new gear as part of my personal responsibility - looking for advice in another post. Afterall, how many posts are out there asking the USEA to follow Formula 1 and mandate better safety gear? But, even at rolex - how many of the riders really had the best safety gear? I'm starting to think that it's time for me to put my money behind my mouth and support those companies that are at the forefront of safety gear. As much as it hurts to pull out the good old credit card- really come on - most people here are probably spending ~$1k/ month on this hobby and you can't afford a new vest?

Part of this may be that my husband just had a 2 hour surgery that could potentially have been avoided if he had better motocross boots on. We'll never know - but even not out of the cast I made him buy the best ones available.

I am also going to continue to attending clinics as much as possible to get really good instruction (as we don't really have much for eventing instructors here.) And getting feedback on a regular basis from my trainer.

Oh, and much to the chagrin of some fellow cothers, I will continue to challenge the maximum time if I have a day that I think my horse or I would benefit from a trot break on cross country :winkgrin:

[gillenwaterfarm]

By the way my horse was sired by Grey Macha. Any relation to your boy?

Yep, Grey Macha sired my guy too. Go Irish Draughts! :)

[vbunny]

I hear everything you guys are saying. I think you all have very valid ideas. However, from the sounds of it you guys are all amateurs competing at the lower levels. Your livelihood does not depend on a good placing at a tough event. It doesn't depend on creating a horse to sell at the upper levels. You aren't driven by not only a dream of the Olympics, but a belief that it can be made real. I think you are looking at things from a very different point of view than people riding at Rolex or a similar level.

[subk]

However, from the sounds of it you guys are all amateurs competing at the lower levels.
Rest assured that you're are wrong. Their are plenty of current and former upper level riders floating around here. As one of them, the lack of "rider resposiblilty" I saw this weekend was about the worst display of sportsmanship I have ever seen in eventing.

[Mary in Area 1]

Subk--Are you referring to the accidents we know about, or were there other reasons for you to say that? Just wondering.

[bip]

I think vbunny touches on a very important issue, which is that we don't fully appreciate the pressures that we each face as individuals. We generally understand what motivates "other people" or "people at X level", but we aren't very good judges of what motivates our own selves. Moreover, we aren't very good at understanding how our choices affect others, both our horses and our fellow competitors. We have reached a point where each additional mistake could have dire consequences for the sport as a whole.

I applaud any and all efforts by individuals to "clean their own house" so to speak, and do their very best to ensure that they aren't part of the problem. But the number of accidents has now gone beyond an individual solution. It has become a collective action problem, and requires an institutional solution. We have to do a better job of making sure that the rules, regulations and preparation/qualification system meet the needs of today's competitors. That means presenting them with courses that meet a reasonable expectation of "safe", and ensuring that our fellow competitors are qualified and prepared for the level they are attempting. Yes, they should be ensuring this themselves, but if they goof, their horse and our whole sport suffers.

[seeuatx]

I hear you on that one (I did not mean for that to be a pun, lol)

I was an ambitious teenager at one time. I lived and breathed cross-country.I dreamed of the Olympics. There was a time when Prelim wasn't far off in the future (I was competing novice, schooling T and P at home). But at that time I had a horse that jumped picnic tables because I pointed him there. He loved his job. I could walk rolex without flinching, and say "in 10 years I am going to be here" (that was 6 years ago, lol). But for as much heart and talent that horse had, his hocks did not agree. He went on to be a school master for a great lady.

I bought a horse that oozed talent over fences. What I did not know is that he had been so fried in the past, he hated it. He absolutely hated it. He hated jumping, he hated going in the open at anything faster than the walk. In our first year together I was taken off with more than I can count, and still I pushed on. Finally, due to an injury we spent one summer we spent 8 weeks doing flat work, and I realized that I had an entirely different horse. I came to the conclusion that I had to listen, and I had a decision to make.... sell a horse that had mental and physical issues would likely not end up in a good spot, or give it up. I made the only decision my conscience would allow. And so I here I sit, surrounded by a big white box practicing shoulder-ins and serpentines rather than galloping through fields.

But I am at heart an eventer for life, I miss it more than words can even express. I will be back when the time is right.

[subk]

Subk--Are you referring to the accidents we know about, or were there other reasons for you to say that? Just wondering.
I'm not going to go into it now--I'm still too angry at the lack of horsemanship or sportsmanship I saw on Saturday. But most of the accidents we saw on Saturday were not "accidents" --an accident is something unexpected. When you ride the toughest XC course in the world and know after the first few fences you don't have brakes or in some instances you don't have a gas pedal when you fall it should not come as a surprise to anybody.

Looking at the falls (all of them not just the bad ones) most had significant and multiple indicators well before the falls that the horse and or the rider were not on the top of their game that day. So yes, I am referring to the accidents we know about, but if I was the Queen All Powerful Ruler of Eventing (thank God I'm not) there were 1 or 2 clean rounds I would have at the least yellow carded under the Dangerous Riding provision. Talk about by the Grace of God...

After last weekend I've come to believe that the key to understanding these serious falls is to anyalize the video and photos of the jumping efforts BEFORE the fence the trouble occurs.

[Sannois]

Rest assured that you're are wrong. Their are plenty of current and upper level riders floating around here. As one of them, the lack of "rider resposiblilty" I saw this weekend was about the worst display of sportsmanship I have ever seen in eventing.

I must agree, however, I applauded Polly Stockton for raising her hand and calling it a day after her guy had a few stops.
I know there were a few others, and I know there were some that needed to and did not.
Question for you, how do we get that rider responsibility back at the upper levels. USed to see people retire alot, now its go on no matter what, and I cant help think that some that continued and maybe should have called it a day suffered as a result. Again, just my opinion from some of the rides I witnessed.

[bip]

After last weekend I've come to believe that the key to understanding these serious falls is to anyalize the video and photos of the jumping efforts BEFORE the fence the trouble occurs.

If that is true, that is GOLD. That is exactly what we need: A way to prevent the accidents BEFORE they occur. I have heard a lot of buzz about how poorly prepared many of the Rolex riders were, but to me it sounded very "20/20 hindsight". That's not helpful if you can't use it to actually identify people likely to have wrecks. But if you can? That simplifies things tremendously.

[Jumper_Dad]

well said...being an amateur, I believe there are other pressures at the highest levels that aren't related to the 'it's not our day' indicators you just mentioned -- rider ego, prestige, owner pressure to perform -- as horseman and horsewomen, those factors should play no part in the world of eventing but do push riders to exceed their and their mounts 'comfort' zones...was this a factor this past weekend -- unknown bu maybe...I remember one Rolex about a few years ago that comes immediately to mind -- where a multiple Rolex winner's 'ride' was so 'off' and 'labored' with the horse so behind the rider's leg that the rider got dumped on her head in the water at the Head of The Lakes, but it was fairly evident to even a rank amateur like me (still working Novice), that it was time to call it quits well before that point in the ride -- the excessive use of the crop to every jump to get the horse moving on...that ride didn't end in trajedy but it well could have for both horse and rider. The issues we are dealing with today have been present in our sport at the highest levels for awhile...and unfortunately, we can see it almost every weekend at our local pony-club horse trials as well -- riders who continue to push the envelope for whatever reasons when it's evidently time to withdraw...different pressures, same human nature. That is why our oversight organizations (USEA and USEF) need to ensure proper measures are in place at every level to intervene in the interest of safety for horse (who doesn't get a vote) and rider (who should know better) lacking the 'heat of competition'...

[JER]

After last weekend I've come to believe that the key to understanding these serious falls is to anyalize the video and photos of the jumping efforts BEFORE the fence the trouble occurs.

I mentioned this on another thread but it's worth bringing up again.

I think eventers don't pay enough attention to a 'bad' but clear jumping effort. You get over by the skin of your teeth or you get around clear with a few sticky moments. Then you remember the clean go but not the bad fence or two.

In steeplechasing, everyone remembers the bad fence, even if the horse wins. The press asks the horse's connections about it, they ask the rider if he feels safe riding the horse, they speculate what's going to happen the next time the horse runs, they may even urge the trainer to drop the horse back to hurdles or not run at certain venues.

Bad fences and sticky moments are taken seriously in steeplechasing. So is rhythm. If a horse has a bad fence early in the race and doesn't get his rhythm back or if a horse fails to find his rhythm at all, the jockey pulls up. No one wants to get hurt out there. (NH jockeys fall once in every 12 or so rides. If you don't want your career to end, you have to be careful.)

I think eventers could take a cue from steeplechasing here but right now it's not really part of our culture.

[imapepper]

I mentioned this on another thread but it's worth bringing up again.

Bad fences and sticky moments are taken seriously in steeplechasing. So is rhythm. If a horse has a bad fence early in the race and doesn't get his rhythm back or if a horse fails to find his rhythm at all, the jockey pulls up. No one wants to get hurt out there. (NH jockeys fall once in every 12 or so rides. If you don't want your career to end, you have to be careful.)

I think eventers could take a cue from steeplechasing here but right now it's not really part of our culture.

Well said.

[Jazzy Lady]

Rider responsibility and trainer responsibility needs to be number one priority, but many people are not thinking clearly. I'm looking at entry status for the first event of the season here in Canada and there are people who have had one clear round at prelim and a couple bad goes upgrading to Intermediate for the first event of the season??? What are people thinking. I know a 20 here and there on a horse record can be indicative of a number of different problems, some not being dangerous at all, but when the record is more bad than good, perhaps staying down for some more runs ain't a bad thing. So why do people want to move up if it's not good? Why do their coaches want them to move up if it's not good?

[subk]

I applauded Polly Stockton for raising her hand and calling it a day after her guy had a few stops.
I know there were a few others, and I know there were some that needed to and did not.
Young Rider Emilee Libby should get credit and praise for being the only other rider to Retire her horse on course when it was obvious (after 2 stops) she shouldn't continue.

[flyingchange]

Some very brave posts here. Thank you SubK and Jumper_Dad. I agree with you completely.

[pooh]

thank you for your post SubK. I've been trying to figure out how to word one and have it soudn the same as in my head.
I am ( and will always) be a lower leverl eventer - at 40 y/o 's old and just starting in eventing a few years ago , I have no desire to go high or exceedingly fast. But I love the variance of the sport and the challenge.
But one thing I love to do is solve problems / puzzles. Even with all the attempts we are making to create a safer sport - we are seeing more injuries and deaths. Subk hit it on the head - there really are no "accidents" or only very few. Even State troopers have stopped calling motor vehicle collisions accidents - they are called what they are crashes. The definition of accident from the dictionary:
1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
2. Law. such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought.
3. any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause

How many of the falls in the past have been due to a serious of poor judgement rather then an accident?? Not "listening" to their horse as another rider stated. Has anyone every truly sat down with a rider ( without pointing blame, etc) who has survived through ( and can recall) some of these falls - what were they thinking in the course walk, what was their plan and did they stick to it. Overall there was not one extremely problematic jump at Rolex - so did someone mis read the question, did they underestimate the fence - or not give it the respect it deserved? Were riders trying to make up time after changing a stride between jumps and got caught??
So much stress is placed on the UL riders to go double clear - but at what cost - a horse that has died has no sale value, and a professional rider who ends up with a disability will have limited opportunties as a rider. No matter what level people compete at we all need to take more respondsibility for our selves and our horses that trust us.
If we want to save lives, we need to look into the anatomy of the crashes - not just pointing fingers. Because until we find out the small intricate "mishaps" that happened and added up into the crash, they will continue to occur.

[Bugsey_2007]

I'm going to continue to be sure me and my horses are well prepared and fit. I won't be put off or frightened by what happens to other riders. I won't take unnecessary risks and I won't ride outside my capability but I'll be competitive and go all out to do my very best every time I ride.

[pwynnnorman]

H&H: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3042225/an/0/page/0#3042225

"Two horses died as a result of two appalling pieces of riding."
~ Mark Phillips

[subk]

Within the community of eventing it is considered very poor form to be critical of the performance of a rider who is battling an injury or dealing with the loss of a cherished partner. I've been reading Laine and Darren's webpage daily and literally cry for these guys, but not discussing the details, decisions and riding that lead to a fall has been a real disservice to the sport.

Laine's fall was a classic example of going forward without balance. The upper level rider standing behind me (yes, I was there) commented after the second fence, "looks like Lainey may be wishing she had more bridle today." Sarah's fall was the classic example of the opposite, balancing then not going forward. She appeared to struggle with this on several previous fences causing the crowd to gasp on more than one occasion. Unless we talk about it the lesson goes unlearned for the rest of us.

But these discussions should not be lead by a random person on a BB. I think it's time for Mark Phillips and the UL riders group that preach that these issues are about rider responsibility, poor riding and poor training to step up to the accountability part of the equation that goes with the "responsibility" part. I think every major fall that results in injury to horse or rider should be publicly peer reviewed if video, photography or knowledgeable eye witnesses are available.

Riders don't go out on course believing there is a possibility of paying the ultimate price of loosing a horse. But maybe, just maybe if they thought their errors would be critically reviewed by their peers and that review would be made public it would give them pause to make better choices and decisions.

Note: I wrote and posted this before reading Wynn's post.

[pwynnnorman]

That said, though, even CMP needs to remember that human beings are not machines--they are human beings who make very human mistakes. I haven't gotten the issue of H&H where he said that, so I don't know if he was referring to an appalling "ride of the moment," or an appalling ride, period. I hope he put it in some context (for both riders) because the distinction if pretty important, wouldn't you say?

And other course designers, subk. Don't forget them. I really would like to hear what CDs at the Uls think riders should be responsible for. I'd like to read it on a regular basis, like a synopsis of the course as they think they designed it: This fence requires accuracy and a brave eye; this fence is a let up that the horse should just roll down over with no rider interference; this fence will jump hard if the previous complex worked out badly, so riders should be ready to pick their horses up and ride forcefully down to it, depending on the type of horse they are on; etc., etc.

Hugh Thomas did a bit of that for Badminton in H&H. I found it interesting. I owuld have been even more intriguing had it been done for Rolex or Red Hills, don't you thinkg? Cours analysis from the course designer. Why not?

[bip]

I agree that it is important for us to acknowledge rider error so we can learn from it. Unfortunately, CMP's comments come off a little like trying to change the subject away from all the attention (blame) that has been put on him lately.

I was more receptive when Denny called out the riders' errors, since he has already established the fact that he is deeply concerned about the problem and a committment to exploring every possible solution.

[Liz Chilcott]

Young Rider Emilee Libby should get credit and praise for being the only other rider to Retire her horse on course when it was obvious (after 2 stops) she shouldn't continue.
Hear, Hear! What was Heidi white thinking blasting around the course that way. You can't tell me she did not know something was really wrong with her wrist after her fall. Yet she got back on knowing she was out of the running and road the last half of the course one handed! Was that smart? Was that risking herself and her wonderful horse? You betcha. How stupid was that!

[subk]

You can't tell me she did not know something was really wrong with her wrist after her fall. Yet she got back on knowing she was out of the running and road the last half of the course one handed! Was that smart? Was that risking herself and her wonderful horse? You betcha. How stupid was that!
Heidi got back on after breaking her arm (and rode that last few fences--not last half.) Corrine Ashton got back on after a fall that caused internal injuries that sent her to the hospital on Sunday. Boyd Martin refused medical treatment and argued with the jump judge to be allowed to continue after his fall in the water. He had landed on his head and floated face down without moving before he was hauled out of the water. The jump judge held his ground, Boyd went back to the barn, started vomiting and showing other signs of head injury and was taken to the hospital. He rode his 2nd horse on Sunday. I don't know any details, but Dornin Anne North fell a second time after remounting after her fist fall.

I know adrenaline plays a role but I have to wonder what message is being sent to our riders that makes them believe they should complete at all costs? How sad that we have to create a new rule--Elimination after the first fall--because riders don't seem to be behaving responsibility. (Whoops, there's the R word...)

[Sannois]

Heidi got back on after breaking her arm (and rode that last few fences--not last half.) Corrine Ashton got back on after a fall that caused internal injuries that sent her to the hospital on Sunday. Boyd Martin refused medical treatment and argued with the jump judge to be allowed to continue after his fall in the water. He had landed on his head and floated face down without moving before he was hauled out of the water. The jump judge held his ground, Boyd went back to the barn, started vomiting and showing other signs of head injury and was taken to the hospital. He rode his 2nd horse on Sunday. I don't know any details, but Dornin Anne North fell a second time after remounting after her fist fall.

I know adrenaline plays a role but I have to wonder what message is being sent to our riders that makes them believe they should complete at all costs? How sad that we have to create a new rule--Elimination after the first fall--because riders don't seem to be behaving responsibility. (Whoops, there's the R word...)
I saw Dornins second fall, and truthfully the fence before that one she looked weak and loose. I think her horse made the decision for her with the last jump.
Saw boyd at the water and he looked dazed and wobbly as they walked him away and his groom came running up.
I know adrenaline is a powerful drug, I used to skydive, You can slam your arm against the plane door or strut and never feel it, until you get to the ground and discover it and think Whoa how did I get this?? Adrenaline!
Good on the jump judge that kept boyd off, that could have been bad.
Glad he was ok.

[Firefox]

Thanks for starting this thread, I think that we all need to read it everyday until it sinks in that we are responsibile for what happens with our horses, and the ULR need to realize that if they screw up it hurts their business worst than if they had pulled up.

[Raji]

originally posted by SubK
>>Rest assured that you're are wrong. Their are plenty of current and former upper level riders floating around here. As one of them, the lack of "rider resposiblilty" I saw this weekend was about the worst display of sportsmanship I have ever seen in eventing.<<

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head. All the bandaids in the world won't fix the problem until the rider takes personal responsibility. One solution is to give the grand jury/TD more authority to eliminate a rider before and during XC. Reinstate the vet box before XC requiring a warm up gallop before entering the start box. Consider a median score at dressage that must be achieved before allowing rider to go XC. Require rider meetings before and after XC and SJ with an open forum to discuss performances observed. If a rider won't police themselves, then give others "MORE" authority to do so.

Linda Allen's article in COTH (4/25/08) "Are you a rider or an equestrian athlete" brings up some good points.Only an equestrian athlete should be competing at a **** event.
There have been many good ideas presented on the various threads and these ideas should be reported to USEA rather than getting lost in this forum.

[Atigirl]

I have been reading as many of the post since Rolex and I have been trying to find the right words to express how I feel. First off I am VERY PROUD to be a lower level rider. That does not make me a bad rider or an unskilled rider. I think that it ultimately falls on the rider to be responsible. No one is forcing us to do this. If something is wrong PULL UP!! If this isn't your day PULL UP!! Even if you are an ULR chasing a spot on a team you need to be responsible. We have now witnessed last year and this year what happens when the rider is not taking the responsibility. Even if you don't know what the problem is, you still know your horse and you should still know when you are having a problem.

I just finished Karen and David O'Connors book. In it, Karen describes the situation leading up to Mr Maxwell's fall and death. I was in tears not only because she had lost a wonderful partner, but in her words, in her book for every one to see, she admitted she was human and made a mistake. It doesn't bring the horse back, but I admire someone at that level and with her talent who can say "hey, I made a mistake".

We don't have to have these mistakes happen to us to be able to try to learn from them.

[MaryKay]

Heidi got back on after breaking her arm (and rode that last few fences--not last half.) Corrine Ashton got back on after a fall that caused internal injuries that sent her to the hospital on Sunday. Boyd Martin refused medical treatment and argued with the jump judge to be allowed to continue after his fall in the water. He had landed on his head and floated face down without moving before he was hauled out of the water. The jump judge held his ground, Boyd went back to the barn, started vomiting and showing other signs of head injury and was taken to the hospital. He rode his 2nd horse on Sunday. I don't know any details, but Dornin Anne North fell a second time after remounting after her fist fall.

I know adrenaline plays a role but I have to wonder what message is being sent to our riders that makes them believe they should complete at all costs? How sad that we have to create a new rule--Elimination after the first fall--because riders don't seem to be behaving responsibility. (Whoops, there's the R word...)

I would rather see them elimated after a fall than witness what I saw last weekend at the Rolex. I have been going to the Rolex now for several years and the last two have been horrible. I saw Amy Tyron at the last fence last year and had the worst of luck to be at the fence when Laine and Frodo came through. I read the transcript of the hearing regarding Amy and still have mixed feelings about it. I could see both sides but that really got my attention. Then there was Darren-can you please give me your opinion of his fall? From everything I read, the horse took a bad step. And now Laine-not having the expertise (I ride,take lessons with the goal of having the skills one day to event at a very low level), I did wonder if that was rider error. Shortly afterwards, David O'Connor said she had misjudged the fence. But what you describe so accurately above does indicate that "finishing at all costs" mentality and that is indeed irresponsible if only for the equine partner involved who has no choice. I wonder out of the 50,000 people at the Rolex this year, how many of them don't ride or ride but don't event and how many will not be back? I am questioning myself as to whether I will go back. What the ULR's need to understand, is I and I can't believe I am alone in this, are not interested in seeing the horrific fall I saw and two horses paying the ultimate price for irresponsible riding. If something isn't done quickly, the ULR will be looking for employment elsewhere-support for eventing will cease to exist. I believe it is in a "crisis" now and the management of this crisis will determine if the sport continues to survive. I don't want to go to an event, holding my breath, saying a prayer that all riders/horses clear the course safely. How can you relax and enjoy the sport like that? Having said all of that, the courses need to be designed to allow for human error and yes, irresponsible riding (that can be dealt with after the fact). Thanks for your input-more current/former ULR's need to get involved in the discussion with the "powers that be".

[Waterwitch]

Well, I've just got to unload this. We rode with a local "trainer" for almost 10 years. We didn't know our a$$ from a hole in the ground. She could talk the talk but she was and is dangerous.

I've seen the type of riding that results when "the only game in town" intimidates the parents into allowing their kids and horses to be dangerously overfaced.

But ultimately I feel the responsiblity is still back on the rider, and in the case of a young rider, the parent, to do their due diligence before putting their life, or the life of their child and horse, in the hands of a "trainer" like this.

Sometimes the small pond (or captive audience) effect makes the local situation appear like there are no other choices for instruction. Sometimes things may appear ok on the surface...until you start doing some comparison shopping. Auditing clinics is a great way to sample the levels and styles of instruction out there. Parents need to go observe lots of lessons and clinics with different trainers and educate themselves as much or more than their kids. A parent must become an educated consumer - a connoisseur of eventing instruction. This is the only way to achieve a basis for comparison to know if the instruction your child is receiving is competent.

As parents we need to walk away from a trainer if we see horses and riders being mistreated and overfaced, or if we see intimidation and force resorted to when the instructor's toolkit is exhausted. This could quite literally be a life saving decision.

[Jumper_Dad]

USEF/USEA 'NTSB' ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION TEAM EQUIVALENT NEEDED
---------------------------------------------------------------
Another specific safety-related idea would be for the USEF/USEA to develop an accident investigation teams and protocols when these incidents occur where a horse and/or rider is severely injured or killed – based upon the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) model, these eventing ‘experts’ – to include an upper level rider, course designer, certified trainer/instructor, event coordinator, medical doctor/examiner, and vet (could be volunteers but they need to be independent of any conflicts of interest in the incident and more importantly, appropriately trained in investigation procedures) – would do a complete investigation and USEA and USEF would need to develop the protocols and procedures to ensure all relevant factors are taken into account and documented as well as develop a cadre of trained volunteers that could be mobilized within a few hours of an incident – the USEA Area Coordinators could assist in this process.

Until the investigation is completed and results fully vetted by the executive boards of each organization, the course designer and rider are suspended from participating in any further competitions or designing any further courses for competition and the fence or obstacle in question where the accident occurred would be struck from all ongoing competitions at that location and others designed by the course designer until the investigation is completed – notational timeframe for this process would be 30-days from the incident occurrence.

It’s important to note, as with NTSB investigations, accidents aren’t always classified as ‘pilot error’ (our equivalent to ‘rider responsibility’) as other environmental factors are taken into account (type of jump, construction of jump and placement on course, terrain, footing, weather conditions, and other relevant factors) and could be causal contributing factors to incidents and should be weighted accordingly.

Additionally, once cleared by the executive boards of each organization, the results would be published (on the USEF/USEA website) to provide total visibility in and outside the community when these incidents occur. We need to get professional about these things and the NTSB model works well…

If the eventing community at all levels is too keep the lawyers, insurance underwriters, and risk-management/assessment folks at bay and keep eventing going in the U.S. and internationally, this is one critical step in establishing our ‘credibility’ with these entities when unfortunate accidents, incidents, and fatalities occur.

is this something 'subk' would endorse in light of the comments on this 'thread' -- if you think this would make ULRs think twice about continuing where maybe it's time to call it quits...send it to the USEA/USEF for consideration...our governing and regulatory organizations need to be have measures that are pro-active and will help prevent incidents when riders are not 'thinking' clearly on course but when these fail, they also need a robust and quantifiable means of investigating and getting 'lessons learned' out to the community -- I used to fly airplanes in the military (almost as 'dangerous' an environment as eventing) and we relied heavily on both proactive preventative measures and lessons learned to prevent incidents and save lives. Don't our loyal and kind-hearted equine partners deserve the best we can afford them in these types of matters...superb 'thread' and everyone should send the link to it to David O'Connor and Kevin Baumgardner TODAY and voice these issues in Lexington in June !!!

[jhodkin]

I witnessed both Laine's fall and Dornin's. Dornin's fall was absolutely forseeable and I had already turned to my partner and said to him as she was taking the long route at the sunken road, that she should be stopped. She had no impulsion AT ALL, even between fences. It was an accident waiting to happen, especially as I believe the footbridge was a maximum height/maximum width fence, as was the next thing she was going to tackle. She had already fallen off once and was taking long routes where the straight route was perfectly jumpable. Someone - and IMHO it's the responsibility of the President of the Ground Jury - should have stopped her. She was totally out of the running, didn't have a qualifying score and was a liability to herself and her horse. Apologies to those who know and love Dornin as I'm not attacking her personally, she was probably full of adrenelin and a little shaken from her fall which may have affected her own judgement about whether she should have called it a day herself. I fully support the 1 fall and you walk home suggestion.

Laine's fall was IMHO a misjudgement on Laine's part. She missed. It' not the crime of the century and again I am in no way trying to bash her. We've all done it, and we'll no doubt do it again. The sad thing is that this mistake caused such catastrophic outcomes. Perhaps she was going a bit quick, but then others had ridden that fence just as quick and jumped it with no problem. The bottom line is, that it was the miss that caused the problem, not the speed.

[Janet]

these eventing ‘experts’ – to include an upper level rider, course designer, certified trainer/instructor, event coordinator, medical doctor/examiner, and vet (could be volunteers but they need to be independent of any conflicts of interest in the incident and more importantly, appropriately trained in investigation procedures) –

Definitely needs to be expanded to include someone with real engneering/physics/materials science expertise. Also a statistician or epedemiologist to detect real trends and patterns.

[Mudroom]

In the suggestions I sent to the USEA I suggested a much tougher quaification system, but also:
A) Citations for dangerous riding be used, much more than currently.
B) They require a suspension period and likely involve the rider losing their qualification at their current level
C) Publish their name and the name of the coach shown on their entry

[Janet]

How many entries list a "coach"?

[pony grandma]

As parents we need to walk away from a trainer if we see horses and riders being mistreated and overfaced, or if we see intimidation and force resorted to when the instructor's toolkit is exhausted. This could quite literally be a life saving decision.

My daughter was riding in a camp one summer. The cross country instructor and I were stomping down some weeds at a fence to clear the ground line. (I was with my daughter b/c she was 11 yrs old at the time). I was trying to tell the 'instructor' that my daughter did have experience with the type of fence that we were trying to fix. She immediately turned to me and sniped "Are you the instructor HERE right now?" Never once did she ask what any of my daughter's experience with xc fences was. The other kids in the camp session were all older and had competed already. The group got ahead of me, I was walking. I came around a bend and my daughter was laying on the ground moaning. She had been overfenced. The woman actually said 'here you take care of her' and she took off! I was furious. That 'instructor' has never seen a dime of my money.

The trainer ego and the you go over there and shut up mentality really irks me. It is not always parental interference.

[DizzyMagic]

Laine's fall was a classic example of going forward without balance. The upper level rider standing behind me (yes, I was there) commented after the second fence, "looks like Lainey may be wishing she had more bridle today." Sarah's fall was the classic example of the opposite, balancing then not going forward. She appeared to struggle with this on several previous fences causing the crowd to gasp on more than one occasion. Unless we talk about it the lesson goes unlearned for the rest of us.


subk - I've known your postings for a long time and have lots of respect for you, but have to say that I think trying to boil everything down to rider responsibility is just a cop out. Accepting, for the sake of argument, that every knowledgeable person on the ground could see that they were headed for trouble - do you truly believe that Laine and Sarah said to themselves, this may be irresponsible, but who cares, it's Rolex and I'm going for it! Or is it just possible that from their vantage-point on the back of the horse, they couldn't tell until it was too late? Is it possible that an otherwise competent and "responsible" rider could lose her cookies in the Rolex atmosphere? These were not experienced 4-star competitors; it sounds like they did the work, thought they were ready, had coaches who thought they were ready and made an unfortunately catastrophic error in judgement.

I'm not saying that rider responsibility shouldn't play a role - I hate seeing the scary rides, the ones where you're sure you're about to see the most horrific crash, but where it ends at worst with an E on the scoreboard. From the way I've heard Dornin's ride described, a big fat penalty and a formal hearing where she gets to watch herself on course and explain her decisions to a panel made up of the most experienced riders and coaches in the sport, who could very bluntly educate her about what she should have done differently and exactly when she should have raised her hand to call it a day. A public formal hearing, in fact, seems like it would serve as punishment, cautionary tale for other riders, and something could keep their minds on the larger picture as they gallop around the course.

But dammit, the riders have to be alive and well enough to *take* responsibility! Laine came within a whisker of being crushed to death by Frodo, and who knows what her future health holds. I wish to god she was currently getting reamed out by any number of her senior peers, rather than struggling with injuries so critical her mother thinks it would be a danger to her health to let her know her beloved Frodo is dead. When we have technology and expertise to create a fence that asks the question but collapses when hit with an impact that causes the horse to sommersault, we have instead a dead horse and badly injured rider.

And what about Sarah? From what I understand about frangible pins, if they had been in use at the footbridge, The Quiet Man would very likely be alive today, in spite of any errors in riding or judgement his rider may have made. The USEA believes in them so much that they said on April 10:
"In keeping with the high safety standards in place at USEA and USEF competitions, frangible pins have been in use on cross-country fences at the The Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event since they were first introduced in the U.S. They will again be in use at all appropriate fences when the event takes place April 24-27."

Wasn't the Footbridge an appropriate fence for frangible pins?

I'm not advocating letting riders evade their responsibility for making good decisions on behalf of their mounts, but that is only part of the problem and only part of the solution. It's just not good enough to say, well, those riders should have retired from course. Another big part of any risk sport is preventing catastrophic accidents when they are preventable so that the participants are alive and healthy enough to learn their lesson.

Emily

[Janet]

subk - I've known your postings for a long time and have lots of respect for you, but have to say that I think trying to boil everything down to rider responsibility is just a cop out. Accepting, for the sake of argument, that every knowledgeable person on the ground could see that they were headed for trouble - do you truly believe that Laine and Sarah said to themselves, this may be irresponsible, but who cares, it's Rolex and I'm going for it!
Not the same thing at all.

If a pilot mis-judges the runway and crashes the plane, it is "pilot responsibility".

But that doesn't mean the pilot "said to himself, this may be irresponsible, but who cares I'm going for it!"

[adamsmom]

And what about Sarah? From what I understand about frangible pins, if they had been in use at the footbridge, The Quiet Man would very likely be alive today, in spite of any errors in riding or judgement his rider may have made. The USEA believes in them so much that they said on April 10:
"In keeping with the high safety standards in place at USEA and USEF competitions, frangible pins have been in use on cross-country fences at the The Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event since they were first introduced in the U.S. They will again be in use at all appropriate fences when the event takes place April 24-27."

Wasn't the Footbridge an appropriate fence for frangible pins?


Emily

The way in which The Quiet Man jumped into the Footbridge would not have broken the frangible pins. Frangible pins break from a large force exerted vertically downward on them, not from horizontal force.

[bip]

Not the same thing at all.

If a pilot mis-judges the runway and crashes the plane, it is "pilot responsibility".

But that doesn't mean the pilot "said to himself, this may be irresponsible, but who cares I'm going for it!"

Exactly! That's why we don't just let pilots fly around w/no supervision or regulation, and we don't just say "hey, runways are dangerous. We know lots of accidents happen at XYZ place on the runway, but we can't change it without losing the 'true flying experience'."

[ponyjumper4]

These were not experienced 4-star competitors; it sounds like they did the work, thought they were ready, had coaches who thought they were ready and made an unfortunately catastrophic error in judgement.

I think the thing that is bothering me the most about all these topics and discussions is the assumption that Laine wasn't qualified to compete at this event or is too inexperienced. In this case, most people just don't recognize her name as much and don't realize that's she's been competing at the upper levels for years now on a few horses. If anyone outside the circle of the more well known names deserved to be there or was qualified or experienced enough to be, it was Laine. Rolex was not new to her. She was on the short list for the team and had been competing very strongly all season in her 3*** on 3 different horses. What would everyone be saying if this had happened to Dutton or O'Connor as it very likely could have? She misjudged it a little on that particular horse, shouldn't have cost her Frodo's life or nearly her own.

[YRAP Mom]

Pilots can train repeatedly on simulators.......no one hurt, no one dies.

[groom]

Exactly! That's why we don't just let pilots fly around w/no supervision or regulation, and we don't just say "hey, runways are dangerous. We know lots of accidents happen at XYZ place on the runway, but we can't change it without losing the 'true flying experience'."


We also don't allow the design & regulation of airports or planes to be dictated by the whimsical hysteria of persons whose only qualification seems to be that they know enough to register and post on a bulletin board and have (too much) time to do so.

There are no simple answers to these issues. The insinuation that there yet cost and or callousness are overriding considerations is ignorant, malicious, and antithetical to resolving these issues.

The COTH is quickly becoming a haven for trolls and yahoos with little apparent knowledge of Eventing and even less obvious desire to find answers to Eventing's current problems. Responsible COTHer take heed to save your community from this blight.

Goodbye.

[bip]

We also don't allow the design & regulation of airports or planes to be dictated by the whimsical hysteria of persons whose only qualification seems to be that they know enough to register and post on a bulletin board and have (too much) time to do so.

I totally agree. The other night I was watching Carrier on PBS, and when one of the planes was trying to refuel in the air but having trouble getting his hose in the coupling, I told my husband "That thing should have magnets, that would make it easier." He laughed and said, "They DO have magnets, that's how hard it is even with the magnets."

So of course I felt silly - obviously the engineers would have thought of it if I could think of it while on the elliptical and not even paying much attention.

I think there is a lot of that kind of thing going on right now, which is fine for a bb. That's kind of the main point of a bb. That doesn't mean USEA should start making jumps out of styrofoam and mandating the integration of parachutes into our vests just because a bunch of bb members posted these suggestions on COTH (or were enterprising enough to e-mail them directly to USEA).

HOWEVER, as participants in and enthusiasts of a sport, it is our responsibility to demand that the USEA leadership consult with other experts, attack the problem from as many angles as necessary and implement necessary changes as soon as possible. There is something going on, this many injuries/deaths are not just a fluke, and it needs to stop.

[blackwly]

Here's what I found interesting:

I watched the xc coverage online. After Dornin's FIRST fall both Amy and Kerry (the commentators) applauded her for getting back on and continuing. The quote was, "That's absolutely the best thing to do in that situation." "Yes, I completely agree."

Then, when she fell off again a few fences later they said, "I still think that was the right thing to do."

Even later in the broadcast it was brought back up, "Yes, if you have a fall, the best thing you can do is get right back on and get back into it."

Uhhh...ok....maybe in some situations, yes. But not at Rolex, on fence 6, when you're already visibly shaken and your ride is NOT GOING WELL. But what does this teach our up and coming riders? Get back on and get with it!

[DizzyMagic]

I think the thing that is bothering me the most about all these topics and discussions is the assumption that Laine wasn't qualified to compete at this event or is too inexperienced. In this case, most people just don't recognize her name as much and don't realize that's she's been competing at the upper levels for years now on a few horses. If anyone outside the circle of the more well known names deserved to be there or was qualified or experienced enough to be, it was Laine. Rolex was not new to her. She was on the short list for the team and had been competing very strongly all season in her 3*** on 3 different horses. What would everyone be saying if this had happened to Dutton or O'Connor as it very likely could have? She misjudged it a little on that particular horse, shouldn't have cost her Frodo's life or nearly her own.

Yes, you're very right. I wasn't sure how many four stars Laine had done, though I knew this wasn't her first - my experience of her was just a few weeks of boarding together when she spent some time at my trainer's barn. I thought she and Frodo (and Jamie) were amazing then, not to mention the fact that she was possibly the most upbeat person I've ever met! I should have said "newer", as a lot of comparison has been made between her type of experience, and someone like Karen who has decades of experience, and has fortunately survived the mistakes that created that experience.

I thought Jimmy Wofford's commentary that she and Frodo should go well at Rolex should be carrying some weight in the discussions, but the more negative viewpoints about her seem to prevail. It very definitely could be someone like Dutton, O'Connor, etc... mistakes will happen, even to the very best. This is a small sport still, and it's easy to get to know even the most elite of our riders - even when the best of the best are out on course I find it's not as much fun for me as it used to be, as I'm almost subconsciously praying that they make it through without something terrible happening. When I have a friend on course who's newer to the level, that worry is fully at the forefront because I know they're more likely to make a mistake as they gain their experience.

It takes some of the fun out of eventing when you hold your breath that all the horses and riders who start the event will still be alive at the end of it. I believe something is wrong, that there are more serious injuries and fatalities now than there were some years ago. I believe it will take more than one single approach to pull the sport back on track, but chief among them in my view is to prevent mistakes from becoming catastrophes anywhere possible.

Emily

[subk]

subk - I've known your postings for a long time and have lots of respect for you, but have to say that I think trying to boil everything down to rider responsibility is just a cop out.
Emily thanks for your kind comment, I love that we are having this conversation! This thread is about "Rider Responsibility" and so that is the topic I'm discussing here. If you do a search I think you will find that I have openly said that this is a complicated multi-faceted problem and the solution is going to be a collection of smaller answers. I have said that we need to examine speeds that were established years ago when XC was called Endurance but today is quite a different thing. I have shared frangible pin research I have found other places with this board and encouraged discussion on the pins. And I have discussed the importance of research to discover and understand patterns that might be prevalent in these falls. But here on this thread I'm talking about rider responsibility because that what this thread is about! I believe that until we're eventing on simulators if we don't address some of our current culture in this area there will be a great big piece of the puzzle missing.

I will also stand up and say that I have pooh poohed some CMP and ULR comments about rider responsibility that were made before Rolex. I'll still scorn those comments because unless they are willing to hold riders ACCOUNTABLE when their responsibility lapses, discuss specifically the mistakes made, and learn (and teach) from them as a community then nebulously talking about bad riding and bad coaching is nothing but a bunch of hot air.

So basically Emily I agree with you. Boiling it ALL down to rider responsibility IS a cop out, but I think failing to address it as a significant part of a larger problem is an even bigger cop out.

[subk]

I thought Jimmy Wofford's commentary that she and Frodo should go well at Rolex should be carrying some weight in the discussions, but the more negative viewpoints about her seem to prevail.
I know I've said some tough things here--and I'm sure everyone doesn't agree with me. I actually waited from Sunday night to yesterday evening to enter these discussions because I find what I'm saying so very difficult. Although it may look like it, my intent in the things I've said is not to bash anyone. My intent is to point out that there were PATTERNS in the problems at Rolex that extended to BEFORE the falls happened. The only way I know how to share that is to specifically discuss the mistakes made (as I saw it) and how the same mistakes were made at earlier fences. (Or in the case of remounting how there is this incredible push to complete even with very serious injuries.)

I know it's hard, but I wish we could get beyond the idea that being critical of someone's riding equates to a "neagtive viewpoint" about her person. Most of the upper level eventers I've met a great people and it comes as no surprise to me that you would say Laine is too.

[Sannois]

I know I've said some tough things here--and I'm sure everyone doesn't agree with me. I actually waited from Sunday night to yesterday evening to enter these discussions because I find what I'm saying so very difficult. Although it may look like it, my intent in the things I've said is not to bash anyone. My intent is to point out that there were PATTERNS in the problems at Rolex that extended to BEFORE the falls happened. The only way I know how to share that is to specifically discuss the mistakes made (as I saw it) and how the same mistakes were made at earlier fences. (Or in the case of remounting how there is this incredible push to complete even with very serious injuries.)

I know it's hard, but I wish we could get beyond the idea that being critical of someone's riding equates to a "neagtive viewpoint" about her person. Most of the upper level eventers I've met a great people and it comes as no surprise to me that you would say Laine is too.
HAve reridden a mistake over and over again, and beat ourselves and then try to learn from that before the next time.
I too have the utmost respect for you subk and admire your candor and good solid ideas and advise.
Unfortunatlly you are right as is dizzy, there are many facets to this problem, and we can brain storm all we want, but I hope to god that the powers that be, can take a look at all the areas, and not just bandaid the whole thing.
Thanks for your great insight! Would have liked to be standing next to you and the rider on Sat. Great way to learn more! :yes:
Just an afterthought for all those that think folks are being negative about the rides they saw, some anyway..
Thats the beauty of this sport, or at least it used to be. We are all in it together, And to be able to trouble shoot problems on course and make changes for the riders and horses is only for the good of all.
No one is trying to belittle anyone. :no:

[DizzyMagic]

Emily thanks for your kind comment, I love that we are having this conversation! This thread is about "Rider Responsibility" and so that is the topic I'm discussing here. If you do a search I think you will find that I have openly said that this is a complicated multi-faceted problem and the solution is going to be a collection of smaller answers. I have said that we need to examine speeds that were established years ago when XC was called Endurance but today is quite a different thing. I have shared frangible pin research I have found other places with this board and encouraged discussion on the pins. And I have discussed the importance of research to discover and understand patterns that might be prevalent in these falls. But here on this thread I'm talking about rider responsibility because that what this thread is about! I believe that until we're eventing on simulators if we don't address some of our current culture in this area there will be a great big piece of the puzzle missing.

I will also stand up and say that I have pooh poohed some CMP and ULR comments about rider responsibility that were made before Rolex. I'll still scorn those comments because unless they are willing to hold riders ACCOUNTABLE when their responsibility lapses, discuss specifically the mistakes made, and learn (and teach) from them as a community then nebulously talking about bad riding and bad coaching is nothing but a bunch of hot air.

So basically Emily I agree with you. Boiling it ALL down to rider responsibility IS a cop out, but I think failing to address it as a significant part of a larger problem is an even bigger cop out.


Thanks for the post-back - I too am glad of the conversation! I understand what you mean about focusing on the topic of this thread, and to be fair, you were persuasive - I have been less willing to admit rider responsibility as a significant component, possibly for the purely personal reason that I have several young friends entering this level of competition. They're talented, they work hard, they seem to learn like sponges and they get back up when the hard lessons knock them down. I want them and their horses alive and healthy to keep learning these lessons, and it feels wrong to lay full responsibility at their feet.

After reading and stewing about your post though, I'm forced to realize that at least part of the responsibility belongs there. Protecting riders and horses from preventable tragedy is a huge issue to me, and I'm hoping that we can create courses that limit the possibility for catastrophic injury wherever possible - whether it's through a different course design or a different type of jump construction. But maybe creating such protection makes a real system of rider accountability even more important. And a leadership that gives only lip service to this issue doesn't do anyone any good - maybe that's the cop-out.

I just think it's important to remember, even on this thread, that there's responsibility and accountability to go around.

Emily

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Dizzy----that is the hard aspect of rider responsibility. Although riders need to be accountable for their errors, they also can have our sympathy. We are all human....everyone makes mistakes. The difficulty of any high level sport is the margin of error is so so small....and the consequences of those errors can be so high.

As riders....we need to understand that fully....and do what we can to learn from our mistakes as well as those of others so we can reduce the possibility of them happening again. Taking responsibility and learning from mistakes applies to more than just eventing....and something that many in society today seem to try and ignore (laying as much blame on anyone else as possible).

ETA: I'm also not saying that more rider responsibility is the only solution...just one piece of the puzzle. I personally don't think that this sport will every be risk free...as no high level sport is risk free. We do need to do as much as possible to try (and continue to try as more knowledge and technology becomes available) to reduce the harm resulting from the errors we know will happen but that also doesn't remove the ultimate responsibility we all have as riders.

[DizzyMagic]

I know I've said some tough things here--and I'm sure everyone doesn't agree with me. I actually waited from Sunday night to yesterday evening to enter these discussions because I find what I'm saying so very difficult. Although it may look like it, my intent in the things I've said is not to bash anyone. My intent is to point out that there were PATTERNS in the problems at Rolex that extended to BEFORE the falls happened. The only way I know how to share that is to specifically discuss the mistakes made (as I saw it) and how the same mistakes were made at earlier fences. (Or in the case of remounting how there is this incredible push to complete even with very serious injuries.)

I know it's hard, but I wish we could get beyond the idea that being critical of someone's riding equates to a "neagtive viewpoint" about her person. Most of the upper level eventers I've met a great people and it comes as no surprise to me that you would say Laine is too.

By negative viewpoint, I wasn't at all talking about your statements, having witnessed the earlier part of the ride and her fall. I meant that people seemed very keen to adopt the idea that neither Laine nor Sarah were really qualified to be at Rolex - and it was subtle, few people came right out and said so, but it was this undercurrent of the posts.

No, what you said was quite clear, based on what you saw. I wished we had more of exactly that kind of conversation, because if you focus on specifics, especially patterns, you can find something that is fixable for the future. I was just baffled by the consensus that she and Frodo weren't ready to be there, in spite of the fact that at least one well respected and often less than tactful horseman stated publicly that he thought she would go well.

I mentioned what Laine was like personally just because it stands out in my mind - she could make stall-cleaning on a rainy day seem like the best fun, and it was just impossible to be in a bad mood around her. She could cheer you up by the force of her own good cheer. And this is the person who lies struggling with critical injuries, who has no idea that Frodo is gone... I just wonder could it have been prevented?

But the open conversation about what you witnessed - please, more of that. It didn't seem like a slight on her as a person, at all. Tell me more and say it bluntly - it's important, and it would probably be good for all of us.

----edited to add this:
Possibly what makes me feel defensive about this issue is wording - the opposite of responsible is irresponsible. I am irresponsible if I run my horse in spite of an injury that I know about, irresponsible if knowingly use defective equipment, irresponsible if I decide to go on vacation for 3 weeks and leave my horses without access to food, water, and care. But am I irresponsible if I don't realize I should retire from the course?

Emily

[Janet]

I didn't see anyone saying that Laine "wasn't qualified", but rather that even those that are well qualified still make mistakes. And need to take responsibility for those mistakes.

[adamsmom]

But am I irresponsible if I don't realize I should retire from the course?

Emily

In my personal opinion, yes you are. I had a very lovely, very honest, very wonderful black horse once. He would try to jump whatever I put him to.
I rode him around his first Preliminary, double clear.
We entered North Georgia at Preliminary.
2 weeks prior, I had a jump school with my then trainer, Kyle Carter. It went badly. I missed and missed and missed, and my lovely, wonderful horse kept trying to save me. Halfway through the lesson I looked at Kyle and said, "I can't do this to him. I'm not ready and he will try for me and he could get hurt." Kyle did not have to tell me. I knew.
My wonderful sister offered to ride him, and he was brilliant at North Georgia. Had I ridden him, it might have been a different story, though I like to think that I would have had the sense to pull up if things got hairy.

So yes, I believe you ARE irresponsible if you cannot realize that today is not your day and you need to go back to the barn. There is always tomorrow. And vanity/pride have no place in this sport.

[denny]

I agree with those who say these problems are multi-dimensional, and that it will take quite a while to sort them out.
MEANWHILE---there`s a way to make a couple of quick fix temporary safety measures that would work RIGHT NOW, cost very little, and take very little work.
1.Reduce all speeds by 20-30 mpm
2.Take around a truckload of haybales, and turn all the verticals into at least somewhat ascending faces, with big, visible groundlines.
When I walked the fence where Lainey fell, I said to Corinne something like, "Well, here`s a vertical table disguised as a picnic basket."
A row of big hay or strawbales to create a good groundline would have wrecked the aesthetics, but might well have saved a horse.
And anyone who jumps knows that the faster you gallop, the lower your horse gets on his forehand, a bad way to approach a vertical face.
So give them groundlines and slow them down while the safety committees do their thing.
Simple and cheap and instant.

[retreadeventer]

Speed and vertical faces -- good point.
Here's another point.
GROW UP.
As I drove my 120 miles yesterday morning at 6am to go and volunteer at MCTA horse trials (beautiful venue, by the way), I had some time to think.
What I came up with was this:
Going back in history, eventing came from both the military and pony club roots. Pony club supported the big events by the incredible amount of volunteer labor they provided. The parents getting together to put on a nice thing for the little kids.

Guess what.

Eventing today is still the great bunch of "parents" (givers, volunteers, amateurs) putting on the nice thing for the little kids ("ULR"'s, professionals, advanced competitors.)
Everything we do as eventers, the vast majority of US, is for THEM.
When they go out and give us the biggest show in our sport, don't go to the whip in front of two or three Rolex fences and then fall down.

PULL UP. Call it a day.

If you have to go to the whip in front of a Rolex fence, I submit your horse doesn't want to do it. If you don't have a horse pulling you to those fences you don't have any business wasting all of OUR hard work in putting on this event for you to give us a show. You aren't being the best rider you can be for our sport. You, as a professional, or ULR, have that "personal responsibility" to stop creating spectacles by being what you are supposed to be at this level - professional.

We ran close to 40 horses I think through intermediate and advanced stadium yesterday and I heard ONE THANK YOU to the six or seven volunteers we had running the stadium jumping at MCTA. Out of 40 horses -- possibly 80 associated people with those horses.
ONE THANK YOU.
I think we need to bring professionals to a WAY BETTER STANDARD right now. Not in a year, or after a summit, or after 30 pages of discussion.
Right now.
Just my 6am driving at 70mph in rush hour traffic thoughts.

[riderboy]

The bad thing about relying on rider responsibility is that many riders don't know what they are responsible FOR. We rely on TRAINERS to help us and if that trainer tells you it's OK to do something by God you'll probably do it.Really bad doctors usually aren't stupid they are the ones who don't ask for help or worse don't even know when to ask for help. Many riders, myself included, did not grow up galloping horses bareback thru the fields. I had no opportunity to ride as a child. The puts me way behind on skill and very dependent on good,encouraging and honest trainers to pull my head out of my ass when I need it. Good trainers are out there, and worth their weight in gold but when you are an ignorant newbie a bad one can string you along for a long time before you find her out. My point is that before I can become a responsible rider I have to be TAUGHT to be a responsible rider. And I want to learn

[retreadeventer]

Very good point.
Learn by example. Pros need to be BETTER examples right now.

[riderboy]

Yes; you are correct. I've also volunteered as a jump judge and it was quite fun. We saw one prelim rider go off course and it was all I could do to not say " GO BACK !" We all need reminding to put our big boy pants on and act like adults.

[throwurheart]

Late to this thread, but all I can say is "bravo!!" to the OP. We really need to master the levels and be utterly bored before we move up, and this includes every level, both horse and rider. Personally, I would have more respect for trainers who show this level of responsibility, and I would trust their advice more to keep me safe too. This sport attracts the courageous and the adrenaline junkies. Since we are cut from that cloth already, it makes sense that applying brakes and caution is the standard counterpoint to find the happy medium.

I agree that it's taken the fun out of the sport to hold your breath the entire xc day at the upper level venues.

I wholeheartedly agree with Denny that an immediate slow-down and hay bale ground lines is the way to go, while the Powers That Be figure out long-term answers.

[groom]

A row of big hay or strawbales to create a good groundline would have wrecked the aesthetics, but might well have saved a horse.


The Flower Basket (http://www.rk3de.org/virtual_fence.php?id=5) had a ground-line. There were no true verticals at Kentucky this year. Every fence was somewhat ascending. Please use the Rolex virtual course map (http://www.rk3de.org/virtual_course.php) to show me an example of a true vertical.

Do you really think that Mike Etherington Smith chose aesthetics over safety in this case? That is how your statement reads to me. I don't believe he did or would. If I have misinterpreted you I apologize.

I think M.E.S. made an excellent point in his 4/20 commentary on USEA's website (http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?section=safety&id=1476):

Course designers have softened profiles in recent years in the belief that if a rider makes a mistake the horse has a better chance of recovering from this mistake. One of the upshots of this is that people seem to go faster nowadays at some types of fences which in the past were given more respect.

How often do we see people going too fast into certain types of fences without giving their horses the chance to understand what it is being asked to jump? Why do they not understand what they are doing and asking of their horses?

Do you disagree with this assertion?

[denny]

Did you walk that fence? It was pretty vertical, didn`t you think?
Plus fairly wide. Not a fence to run to.
Maybe MES considered a few flowers enough ground line, but it wasn`t enough to change the question.

[SmallHerd]

Denny, you are absolutely right. I walked the course and saw the groundline. It looked like a tree branch of some kind and I thought it was visually deceiving. I don't think the basket had a ground line last year though, and one would think the bright yellow color would distinguish it enough from the footing to create the visual.

[Carol Ames]

I personally find this" rider responsibility "a cop and :yes:out and put it in the "blame the victim category; It is possible to walk a course, know you and your horse are capable;) of jumping every fence, and yet still have a fall:eek:; sanctioning a rider for rotational fall makes NO :no: sense at all to me; What is the desired outcome of such a rule? have the rider pull up a horse who may not get his legs up?

[groom]

Did you walk that fence? It was pretty vertical, didn`t you think?
Plus fairly wide. Not a fence to run to.
Maybe MES considered a few flowers enough ground line, but it wasn`t enough to change the question.


I did not walk that section inside the string, and only saw the site close-up at the end of the day as the flower ladies were on course collecting flowers and the CB's were moving the Basket to stadium for a technical decoration (!) (at R. Jeffrey's request -but when he/they realized this was the accident fence he/they wisely chose the rock-table fence instead) So I cannot say I saw that groundline intact. Are you saying the picture on the Rolex site is not representative?

Like I said- I cannot aver as to what was actually there, but the picture depicts an ascending table shape, which combined with the narrow-illusion of the hoop/handle and the little swale in the last couple strides was purportedly set to check speed coming into the Coffin. Not that tricky, is it? No, "not a fence to run to", which is precisely what LA did with Frodo. Was that her mistake or MES's?

My impression is that this wreck was not caused by poor design, but by pilot error, and we can't "fix" that by simply making every fence rounder & softer. Do you disagree with either of these points?

[retreadeventer]

Yes, Carol, that is exactly what they want the riders to do, pull up horses when they realize they are not jumping well. Unfortunately, I understand your point, and agree with it, however, the rule about falls is here to stay, I know enough from paying membership dues to these organizations for over three decades now, to realize if it's floated, it's already DONE. NO such thing as member input.

[denny]

The question isn`t whose "fault" it was. The question is how to limit the accidents.
And since nobody seems to know how to do that, and since the sport is under attack, it seems prudent to make courses easier until we figure out how to build xc fences that don`t flip horses.
Slowing the speeds and softening verticals will help.
Sure, Bruce, Philip, etc. may not need that sort of help, but very clearly, others do.
And right now, it`s those others who are getting in big trouble.
My impression on walking the Rolex course was that it was a good 4-star track. But I don`t think those were all 4-star riders and horses that day.
So do we make it a bit too easy for the best, or a bit too hard for the least??
Answer that one.

[RunForIt]

The question isn`t whose "fault" it was. The question is how to limit the accidents.
And since nobody seems to know how to do that, and since the sport is under attack, it seems prudent to make courses easier until we figure out how to build xc fences that don`t flip horses.
Slowing the speeds and softening verticals will help.
Sure, Bruce, Philip, etc. may not need that sort of help, but very clearly, others do.
And right now, it`s those others who are getting in big trouble.
My impression on walking the Rolex course was that it was a good 4-star track. But I don`t think those were all 4-star riders and horses that day.
So do we make it a bit too easy for the best, or a bit too hard for the least??
Answer that one.

Agree with what you say, Denny, except on the bold face in the quote above (my addition: bolded print). As evidenced by Darren's accident, even the best WILL make mistakes - hopefully they won't. If Connaught had misstepped, if Phillip misjudged the flower basket in some tiny way, Connaught might be gone and Phillip in the hospital.

My point is that mistakes are inevitable - they shouldn't cost life and limb - this is sport, not war.

[denny]

The answers are there, but they aren`t palatable to many.
Make xc tests easier, speeds slower.
Simple. In theory. But then people say" We aren`t making it a true test for the best riders."
I totally agree.
But again I`d ask this. Is it better to be too easy for the best, or is it better to be too hard for the least?
That`s the hard question, don`t you think?
It`s like asking racehorse people whether making racing only for 4 year olds and up would reduce breakdowns.
The answer is simple, but they won`t do it.
So we actually already know the answers, but we don`t like them.

[BigRuss1996]

I agree


The answers are there, but they aren`t palatable to many.
Make xc tests easier, speeds slower.
Simple. In theory. But then people say" We aren`t making it a true test for the best riders."
I totally agree.
But again I`d ask this. Is it better to be too easy for the best, or is it better to be too hard for the least?
That`s the hard question, don`t you think?
It`s like asking racehorse people whether making racing only for 4 year olds and up would reduce breakdowns.
The answer is simple, but they won`t do it.
So we actually already know the answers, but we don`t like them.

[Carol Ames]

want to save lives, we need to look into the anatomy of the crashes :yes:- not just pointing fingers. Because until we find out the small intricate "mishaps" that happened and added up into the crash, they will continue to occur.

[pwynnnorman]

But again I`d ask this. Is it better to be too easy for the best, or is it better to be too hard for the least?


Wow, that really is it in a nutshell, isn't it.

And somewhere in there is that "cumulative effect," lurking to spoil the "but that's what options are for" rejoinder. A real conundrum.

[Catersun]

My impression on walking the Rolex course was that it was a good 4-star track. But I don`t think those were all 4-star riders and horses that day.


That seems to be what a lot of people don't want to accept. Until they do we will all keep going around arguing that there are no lesser riders, and that bad things happen to good people.


It's a critical decision, in my opinion an easy one. It's glaringly obvious to me to make the courses easier. *Unless they can effectively keep the lesser riders(that don't really exist by some standards) from riding it.

It's really two sides of the same coin.... just seems we are having a hard time separating the discussion about each side.

[magnolia73]

You have brave, brave riders- the nature of eventers is a brave "can do" attitude, and not, especially in their early 20's - going to yield the greatest personal decisions.

Why not have prelim and up be invitational? You submit two videos of XC for review to a committee of 4 professionals. 3 out of 4 have to approve before you can move up - horse and rider.

1. You stop people from moving up who are getting around- but dangerous.
2. You negate some of the effects of "bad trainers" by placing the final approval of move up in the hands of "good trainers".
3. You force people to perfect XC at a certain level by forcing them to have two good, quality rounds.
4. You keep any type of subjective scoring on XC out of the competition, but still encourage good, careful riding to get the move up videos.

Yeah, its a pain, yeah, its costly BUT IMO, prelim and up is a commitment. This weeds out the casual ones. It won't stop accidents, but it will insure core competence from pairs. It is DISTURBING that people feel that riders at Rolex did not belong there. This helps prevent that uncomfortable truth.

[denny]

Read what Mark Philips said about our lack of depth. He`s right. We probably don`t have enough true 4-star combinations to fill a division.

[mbarrett]

If Mark Phillips says the US doesn't have the depth of talent to fill a 4 star event, and Denny says the same thing, why not go back to an Advanced division AND an Intermediate division at the Rolex?

I believe that there used to be two divisions at the Rolex YEARS ago.

That would give some of the riders who "aren't ready for prime time" to play while the true 4 Star horses and riders could compete at the Advanced level.

It seems that if what people are saying, there were horses and riders at this year's Rolex who didn't belong there, maybe that solution could save some horses and riders from serious accidents.

You've got to keep some of these horses and riders in the shallow end of the pool and only allow the elite riders into the deep end of the pool. Sorry, that's how I feel. Some people need to pay their dues a little bit longer. Get a little bit more experience. Just because a horse and rider are "technically" qualified for an advanced level event, doesn't mean they belong there.

[RunForIt]

If Mark Phillips says the US doesn't have the depth of talent to fill a 4 star event, and Denny says the same thing, why not go back to an Advanced division AND an Intermediate division at the Rolex?

I believe that there used to be two divisions at the Rolex YEARS ago.

That would give some of the riders who "aren't ready for prime time" to play while the true 4 Star horses and riders could compete at the Advanced level.

It seems that if what people are saying, there were horses and riders at this year's Rolex who didn't belong there, maybe that solution could save some horses and riders from serious accidents.

You've got to keep some of these horses and riders in the shallow end of the pool and only allow the elite riders into the deep end of the pool. Sorry, that's how I feel. Some people need to pay their dues a little bit longer. Get a little bit more experience. Just because a horse and rider are "technically" qualified for an advanced level event, doesn't mean they belong there.

I'm trying to take a wider view of this whole, very complicated, messy problem. Perhaps if some sort of system is implemented that could keep advanced and 4**** competitions only for "proven" horse and rider combinations (horses need a proven record too - no more rushing them through the levels for whatever reason), then different data might emerge: it would be the RARE instance of horse or rider injury, with people saying "its been YEARS since anyone been hurt like this or any horse had to be euthanized..." Maybe.

In the meantime, decrease speed, make the courses easy, eliminate verticle faced jumps, groundlines on all jumps - or stop the game.

[LAZ]

After last weekend I've come to believe that the key to understanding these serious falls is to anyalize the video and photos of the jumping efforts BEFORE the fence the trouble occurs.

Subk--

I've been speaking with some Racing people (Indy Car type racing) about what they did in their sport and this is one thing they've all said. The big question must be: What has changed in the sport that has produced an increase in these issues? Video tape is one of the ways they identified this.


I also saw at least 4 people going around on cross country that I thought should have pulled up (Mind you, I didn't see every ride). One of these got around clear. I would have been feeding my horse tubs of carrots, blessing his hooves and promising to never to that to him again. The others were not so lucky...

I think the riders responsibility at this level should not be to ride at Rolex, but to be good enough to ride around Rolex well and safely, without putting their willing partner at undue risk.

[LAZ]

I believe that there used to be two divisions at the Rolex YEARS ago.



There were two divisions for a very long time--first a full 3 day at Prelim, then a full 3 day at Intermediate. I believe around 1987 it went to an Intermeidate HT, then went to an Advanced HT around 1991, then in '98 they added the **** and ran a *** concurrently until fairly recently.

I think it would be great to add and Advanced HT back in. We have very few offered in the midwest (Wayne and Richland being the only ones, I think). I realize the logistics and all make it tough, two tracks, etc, but it would give horses some valuable exposure to the crowds that only occur at Rolex.

[RunForIt]

originally posted by LAZ:
I think the riders responsibility at this level should not be to ride at Rolex, but to be good enough to ride around Rolex well and safely, without putting their willing partner at undue risk.

This will be the most difficult to address and define: willing partner at undue risk.


what if there was a rider penalty for horse injury - example: horse has to be put down due to injury in a competition, automatic suspension from competitions for a calendar year, enforced at all levels. Wonder what would happen then in terms of rider responsibility?

[BigRuss1996]

Actually having done the Advanced HT at Rolex in the early 90's .... it was alot of the same fences as the *** that we jumped only we didn't do roads and track and steeplechase you just had sort of a short roads and tracks to hackover to the start.

There were two divisions for a very long time--first a full 3 day at Prelim, then a full 3 day at Intermediate. I believe around 1987 it went to an Intermeidate HT, then went to an Advanced HT around 1991, then in '98 they added the **** and ran a *** concurrently until fairly recently.

I think it would be great to add and Advanced HT back in. We have very few offered in the midwest (Wayne and Richland being the only ones, I think). I realize the logistics and all make it tough, two tracks, etc, but it would give horses some valuable exposure to the crowds that only occur at Rolex.

[mbarrett]

I don't want to over simplify the problems currently in eventing. I'm all for rider responsibility, officials responsibility, well designed courses, slower speeds, better made fences (get rid of the "cute" factor, go back to natural type fences), a tougher qualification system etc., etc., etc. I think there have been MANY great suggestions made by the folks on this BB. Hopefully, ALL suggestions, however small or large, will be taken into consideration at the safety meeting in June.

I think it would be great to add an Intermediate division at Rolex. It would showcase our up and coming riders and/or horses. It would be a place to give these riders/horses a taste of international rules and competition, with slightly easier fences.

I first went to the Rolex in 1985. I took a bunch of friends who didn't know squat about horses. They had no idea there were several different divisions running with different sizes cross country fences. They just had a great time. It was a fun weekend. Why not go back to that?

I'm thinking long and hard if I want to go to Rolex next year. I don't want to cringe when I see scary riding. I think John Q. Public can plainly see scary riding; you don't have to be an expert to know that someone is out of their league. I'd hate for the Rolex to continue to be a PR nightmare year after year.

I'm not picking on Rolex either, scary riding happens at every event, at all levels. Let's work together to fix this thing.

[adamsmom]

I did not walk that section inside the string, and only saw the site close-up at the end of the day as the flower ladies were on course collecting flowers and the CB's were moving the Basket to stadium for a technical decoration (!) (at R. Jeffrey's request -but when he/they realized this was the accident fence he/they wisely chose the rock-table fence instead) So I cannot say I saw that groundline intact. Are you saying the picture on the Rolex site is not representative?

Like I said- I cannot aver as to what was actually there, but the picture depicts an ascending table shape, which combined with the narrow-illusion of the hoop/handle and the little swale in the last couple strides was purportedly set to check speed coming into the Coffin. Not that tricky, is it? No, "not a fence to run to", which is precisely what LA did with Frodo. Was that her mistake or MES's?

My impression is that this wreck was not caused by poor design, but by pilot error, and we can't "fix" that by simply making every fence rounder & softer. Do you disagree with either of these points?

I stood in front of that fence just after Laine's fall and that ground line in the picture is the ground line that was there.

[DizzyMagic]

So yes, I believe you ARE irresponsible if you cannot realize that today is not your day and you need to go back to the barn. There is always tomorrow. And vanity/pride have no place in this sport.

But how do you know what you don't know? You realized you weren't ready for your show on your horse; I had an opposite experience. My horse is my heart, and I would willingly trade my life for hers, but I nearly ruined her by overfacing us - not out of pride but out of ignorance. Yet, I don't call myself an irresponsible rider, because as soon as I *did* know it, I changed everything to try to make it right. I take full responsibility for the training issues we later faced and am so grateful that there neither of us got hurt, but the fact remains that in the moment, I simply did not know. I expect that if we had crashed, there would have been a boatload of people who would have said, "Oh, they were an accident waiting to happen." But no one ever said that to me. And, yes, I would have listened to them.

After seeing the contrast between the bulk of the Rolex rides and the Badminton rides, I just wonder whether there's something systemically lacking in the way we produce eventers. Do we have a system that just fails to penalize unsafe riding? Or do we have a system that actively rewards unsafe riding?

Emily

[DizzyMagic]

The answers are there, but they aren`t palatable to many.
Make xc tests easier, speeds slower.


Maybe we should also consider more stringent penalties for riding too fast? Give the rider concrete feedback that what they're doing is a "bad thing".

Emily

[poltroon]

Read what Mark Philips said about our lack of depth. He`s right. We probably don`t have enough true 4-star combinations to fill a division.

The combined 3*/4* that they used to run was fantastic from a spectator point of view. And, it gave people a chance to go 'do Rolex' at the three star level if that was what was appropriate for them. I never completely understood why they felt the need to make it 4* only.

[adamsmom]

The combined 3*/4* that they used to run was fantastic from a spectator point of view. And, it gave people a chance to go 'do Rolex' at the three star level if that was what was appropriate for them. I never completely understood why they felt the need to make it 4* only.

Foxhall came into the picture. You wouldn't want 2 3*s that close together. When Foxhall went away, Jersey Fresh was there to take its place.

The better alternative now would be A/CIC3* & I/CIC2* for those on their way to Jersey.

[luise]

I think definitely speed is one of the issues. After watching the first 4 rounds of XC yesterday online, it made me think about Laine's accident. Yes, she is a very talented rider. Did anyone notice how fast she went with her first mount in the morning? Almost 30 seconds faster than Phillip Dutton and Karen O'Connor! I think one of the only other people who had such a fast time was Becky Holder, but she had been held on course and then had watch issues. If you watch Laine's first trip around the course, she is really booking it, and looking at her watch. I only wonder if she got overly confident and probably was going too fast with Frodo. Maybe she took it for granted that she had done so much with him. Theydon't have the video before the fall/approaching the flower basket online to analyze, but in watching other riders, they all sat up and collected their horses coming up to that fence. How do we fix the problem though of riders getting overly confident? That I don't know. I think that is something that comes with maturity.

[Jumper_Dad]

Speed and vertical faces -- good point.
Here's another point.
GROW UP.
As I drove my 120 miles yesterday morning at 6am to go and volunteer at MCTA horse trials (beautiful venue, by the way), I had some time to think.
What I came up with was this:
Going back in history, eventing came from both the military and pony club roots. Pony club supported the big events by the incredible amount of volunteer labor they provided. The parents getting together to put on a nice thing for the little kids.

Guess what.

Eventing today is still the great bunch of "parents" (givers, volunteers, amateurs) putting on the nice thing for the little kids ("ULR"'s, professionals, advanced competitors.)
Everything we do as eventers, the vast majority of US, is for THEM.
When they go out and give us the biggest show in our sport, don't go to the whip in front of two or three Rolex fences and then fall down.

PULL UP. Call it a day.

If you have to go to the whip in front of a Rolex fence, I submit your horse doesn't want to do it. If you don't have a horse pulling you to those fences you don't have any business wasting all of OUR hard work in putting on this event for you to give us a show. You aren't being the best rider you can be for our sport. You, as a professional, or ULR, have that "personal responsibility" to stop creating spectacles by being what you are supposed to be at this level - professional.

We ran close to 40 horses I think through intermediate and advanced stadium yesterday and I heard ONE THANK YOU to the six or seven volunteers we had running the stadium jumping at MCTA. Out of 40 horses -- possibly 80 associated people with those horses.
ONE THANK YOU.
I think we need to bring professionals to a WAY BETTER STANDARD right now. Not in a year, or after a summit, or after 30 pages of discussion.
Right now.
Just my 6am driving at 70mph in rush hour traffic thoughts.

very valid points and I totally agree -- ULRs (our professionals) need to belly-up-to-the-bar here with their responsibility to the eventing community as well as their horses but with human nature being what it is and lacking in certain measure, other institutional (USEF/USEA) control measures are needed -- reference above: How many amateur riders say "good morning" to the dressage judge and scribe before and "thank you" after their tests? How many amateur riders send an email to the show secretary after an event thanking them and all their volunteers for their hard work -- good manners and personal (rider) responsibility go hand-in-hand...Thanks to retreadeventer for making this very valid point !!!

[pwynnnorman]

The combined 3*/4* that they used to run was fantastic from a spectator point of view. And, it gave people a chance to go 'do Rolex' at the three star level if that was what was appropriate for them. I never completely understood why they felt the need to make it 4* only.

Nice thing about it, too, is that have a lower level makes the higher level understood and appreciated that much more.

How do we fix the problem though of riders getting overly confident? That I don't know. I think that is something that comes with maturity.

But, luis, that implies that going that way was due to habit, not circumstance. Being overly confident (whether than applies to Laine's error or not) is just one of an unlimited number of circumstances which can lead to rider error. There's just no way to avoid that kind of rider error.

In contrast, IMO, the sport has an obligation to eliminate habits that lead to error. And I think that is the direction it is moving it.

But nothing can be done to eliminate the errors themselves. Pilots err. Riders err. Errors happen. Either the sport prepare itself to accept the bad press that arises from them, or it girds itself up (collectively, financially, etc.) to pay for the ultimate costs of prevention: collapsible fences. Anything between "accept" and "pay" is going to be a crapshoot in terms of success, IMO.

[asterix]

Why not have prelim and up be invitational? You submit two videos of XC for review to a committee of 4 professionals. 3 out of 4 have to approve before you can move up - horse and rider.


I have been thinking along these same lines --what if we had 2 officials on xc for prelim + who had to grade your round as satisfactory or unsatisfactory from a safety perspective? If you received an "unsatisfactory" you would NOT be able to use that score as a qualifying score for moving up. It would not affect your placing, would not carry any kind of numeric penalty, but would mean you would have to keep trying to get that qualifying score.