2 out of 3 mares with repro probs? Help!

[incahoots]

Mare #1-5 year old maiden, bred twice last year with frozen. No pregnancies. Silent heats and the alpha. US yesterday showed ovaries with multiple follicles, like 10-12. Vet said it looked like a bunch of grapes. Could this be normal? We have had an unseasonably cool spring. Could this be her first heat cycle and it's just weird? Mare #2-9 year old OTTB came from less than stellar circumstances and the previous owners said she was a maiden. She is about day three of her heat. On US he notices a thick uterus, feels like she isn't a maiden and may have had problems in the past. Not a pristine uterus were his exact words. Has a 37 cm soft follicle and a wide open cervix "You could drive a truck through", but also he says grade 5 endometrial edema (or uterine edema, forgive my wording if its incorrect). Normal for a mare in heat is 1-3? Is something going on with all this edema and will it affect her settling? Anybody seen this before? Am I going to be throwing alot of money away?

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Did he recommend culturing both your mares for bacteria, fungus and possibly doing a biopsy on mare #2? If not, you need to find a new vet. Really, it seems he should have been giving you ideas on where to go from here after he detected the edema. Did he? And with mare #2 you should have a good repro vet check her cervix to make sure it is not damaged or incompetent for some reason.

I don't know enough about the situation with #1. I'm sure someone knowledgeable on COTH will be able to respond to that.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I personally would do a culture/cytology on both mares to start with.
Mare #1 could still be transitional or just coming into heat; multiple small follicles would be normal in both cases.
On the second mare, I've never heard uterine edema described as a "5". Usually in those cases we say grade 3+. As far as the cervix being open, she's in heat so it SHOULD be open. Some mares just relax more than others. Some edema can be caused by inflammation, but it is possible that she is just showing the normal signs of heat. Would really do a culture/cytology on both; it is a good baseline to have anyway, going into breeding season.

[incahoots]

Yes, he did of course. Just trying to find out some info before I make a decision as to what to do here. Mare #1 shouldn't need culture and cytology as she is maiden and it's a strange follicle problem. I'm sure you are correct in that mare #2 needs a complete breeding soundness exam. Just wondered if anyone else had encountered issues like these and what the outcomes were. Thanks!

[Hillside H Ranch]

Please don't feel like mare #1 doesn't need a culture/cytology just because she is a maiden. True that it won't tell you anything about her ovaries, but all mares should have a culture/cytology before breeding, even maidens. You would be shocked at the number of maiden mares that have uterine infections; better to know before spending all that money on a cycle to breed, only to find out she is infected. I just wanted to add that, so others didn't think that maiden mares are always infection free.

[not again]

Local reports here in SE Pa. seem to indicate inconsistent heats and conception rates so far. We had one mare palpated last week as she is new to us, culture taken etc. We do have pregnancies with one shipment per mare to several different mares, but they have great repro vets tracking them.
But no breeding attempts with our own mares yet, partially because we like our foals in April and May. Once the weather/temperature settles we will be really busy here at home though.

[incahoots]

Hillside, that 's interesting as I have never had a vet recommend a culture and cyt on one of my maidens. I can see this particular mare could have been infected by using poor technique during her insemination last year but how would an infection be introduced on a young mare that had never been bred and had normal anatomy?

[horsetales]

Hillside, that 's interesting as I have never had a vet recommend a culture and cyt on one of my maidens. I can see this particular mare could have been infected by using poor technique during her insemination last year but how would an infection be introduced on a young mare that had never been bred and had normal anatomy?

I have a maiden that I bought when she was born, so I know she's a maiden. I thought as you, but the stallion contract required a clean culture. Low and behold, it did not come back clean. It was an easy treat and came back clean the second time.

[Equine Reproduction]

Hillside is absolutely correct on the maiden mare. You should have a culture AND!!! cytology done. Without a cytology, you have no way of knowing if any pathogens grown in the culture are actually contaminants or growing in the uterus

Hillside, that 's interesting as I have never had a vet recommend a culture and cyt on one of my maidens.

Then your vet is doing you a disservice. While uterine infections are not necessarily common in the maiden mare, they are also not uncommon.

I can see this particular mare could have been infected by using poor technique during her insemination last year but how would an infection be introduced on a young mare that had never been bred and had normal anatomy?

Because personal hygiene in the equine is just not what it should be. It happens! While the mare has three barriers to the uterus (labia, vestibular seal and the cervix), they are not infallible. And while you and/or your vet may see a uterine culture and cytology as unnecessary, it is cheap and simple insurance to eliminate a problem before investing money into attempting to breed a mare that doesn't have a clean uterus. I can't tell you the number of young, healthy maiden mares that we have seen that "do" have positive culture and cytologies.

With regards to the multiple small follicles and "grape clusters", that screams transitional mare. What breeders often forget is that we are just coming into the horse's natural breeding season. As a rule of thumb, we say that when the mare has completely shed out her winter coat, she is probably cycling normally and regularly. We're here in Oklahoma and while most of the girls are shed out completely, there are a couple that are hanging on to the remnants of their winter coats. A couple of those girls still are transitional. Hard to believe when we've already had a couple days well into the 80's and no more hard frosts. But, when one considers that it's the amount of daylight that is the most influential with regards to the cyclicty of mare, it makes perfect sense.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Hillside H Ranch]

I think Kathy answered all your questions! Believe me, I've learned to do a culture/cytology on all of my mares, every year, before breeding. We even do all of our embryo transfer recipients, and many of them are maidens.

Best of luck with your breeding this year!

[Fairview Horse Center]

Your post is sending off major bells in my head. You are dealing with a vet that does not know what a transitional mare looks like, and one that does not think it is necessary to do a culture and cytology on a maiden mare.

Am I going to be throwing alot of money away?

Sorry to be blunt, but in my opinion, the answer to that is YES!!! IF you continue to use that vet. Find a repro vet with a LOT more experience, and you will save a ton of money in the long run, and may actually get your mares in foal.

[Home Again Farm]

Here is another vote cast for a different vet. I immediately recognized mare 1 to be transitional and mare 2 to need a C&C. I'd do a C&C on mare 1 as well because she was bred unsuccessfully last year. Sorry, but your fellow is not covering the basic bases.

[Reiter]

Ditto the last 2 posts!

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Even weight loss can contribute to a uterine infection in a maiden mare. When they lose weight it can temporarily effect the breeding conformation by allowing the anus to sink in farther than the vulva and they end up pooping on themselves, so to speak. Considering *some* mares will come out of the winter thin, this is also a possibility beside the fact that it just happens regardless of breeding conformation. The anus is above the vaginal opening and they can get an infection if manure gets into the vaginal opening and travels down.

Much better to go ahead and culture them all for bacteria and fungus than spend hundreds to thousands trying to get them pregnant only to find out later that they are dirty.

[incahoots]

Thank You! While he did recommend the culture and cyt on the #2 mare he did not know if mare one was transitional or having a problem. She is still in her winter coat as well! I actually feel much better after reading the posts and will Culture and cyt both of them before moving forward! I will also definitely switch to a repro vet as this one is my regular guy. Thanks again!