If you don't know what you're talking about, SHUT UP!

[c_expresso]

Okay, I am the ONLY one sick and tired of people who know nothing about eventing telling us what needs to be done, or that eventers are killers and our horses are abused?

I TOTALLY appreciate input from people in different disciplines. It gives a new perspective. I also respect anyone who does not want to event, or thinks it is dangerous.

However ranting about how horrible eventing is when you know jack $h!t about it does not help.

If anyone ever visits the BB 'Horse Show Spy' (it is pathetic btw) than you will know what I mean...

[sublimequine]

I'm nowhere near an eventer, and I jump like once every few months (if that :lol: ), so I know NOTHING about eventing. I'm curious now though, what're the folks that are against it all up in arms about? :confused:

[deltawave]

Word. Often opinions from different perspectives are useful for the simple reason that they ARE different, but JEEZ with the Holding Forth and Proclaiming from the perspective of never having done the sport!!!

Ideas and constructive thinking are always welcome, but going on and on about how XYZ will never work or how ABC is better because that's how it's always been done--gaaah, useless.

[LexInVA]

The site seems to be down for the moment.

[c_expresso]

The site seems to be down for the moment.

Yeah it isn't working for me either...

Anyway,

You don't see us over in the hunter/jumper forum calling them abusive for lunging their horses hours on end before classes, or telling the DQs to take their horse on a damn trail ride for once, or yelling at endurance riders for riding on bad footing, etc. Of course there is evil in all disciplines, but I like to think it is hardly the norm. But whining about stuff you know nothing about is useless. While the accidents in eventing are horrific and have happened one too many times, overall they are RARE. Some are making out all levels of eventing a bloodbath which is blatantly wrong.

[eloquence09]

you what's just as useless though? Starting an entire thread just to complain about it. People are always going to have different opinions on just about everything and complaining does nothing but make you more upset. You could have totally taken this in another direction sans hostility. You're no different than the person you're complaining about when you think about it.

[In The Gate]

I'm a hunter/jumper rider, and I find your comments out of place. I have NO CLUE how to fix your sport -- but I consider myself a horse person and make an effort to follow other disciplines as well. Sadly, I have seen more of eventing because of all the recent tragedies.

As a human and a horse person I am deeply saddened by the loss of many talented horses and riders. While I cannot comment directly on what methods are needed to "fix" your sport, I find the trend of rider injuries and deaths deeply concerning. If you don't want someone else telling you how to fix your sport, do it yourself!

[c_expresso]

you what's just as useless though? Starting an entire thread just to complain about it. People are always going to have different opinions on just about everything and complaining does nothing but make you more upset. You could have totally taken this in another direction sans hostility. You're no different than the person you're complaining about when you think about it.

I don't think so. If you thought I was serious in my last post, I wasn't. I was pointing out how unfair it would be to make accusations like that against other sports without fully understanding them.

[deltawave]

Nah, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to getting peeved--I do it all the time. :) Venting is good, venting is fine, destructive and gratuitous b*tching is even fine in some circumstances, but not from the position of High and Mighty and utterly clueless. :)

[LexInVA]

Looks like the shoe making dolt who created that site has re-registered it through a proxy company.

[c_expresso]

If you read my post thoroughly you would understand I have no problem with you. I like to see people following other disciplines and giving us suggestions. Different perspective is good. But others have been calling saying eventing should be shut down completely and it is a killer sport. I find those comments offensive.

I'm a hunter/jumper rider, and I find your comments out of place. I have NO CLUE how to fix your sport -- but I consider myself a horse person and make an effort to follow other disciplines as well. Sadly, I have seen more of eventing because of all the recent tragedies.

As a human and a horse person I am deeply saddened by the loss of many talented horses and riders. While I cannot comment directly on what methods are needed to "fix" your sport, I find the trend of rider injuries and deaths deeply concerning. If you don't want someone else telling you how to fix your sport, do it yourself!

[seeuatx]

I don't place a whole lot of stock on anything coming from that board. Most of it is just malicious crap, from the "let's speculate on who is screwing who and how many marriages we can ruin" threads, to the "which junior wins the Brat (or other adjective) of the year award".

Now, that being said.... I am not against other disciplines expressing concern and saying "uhhh, what's going on over there?". And maybe even brainstorming ideas a bit. Honestly, sometimes a fresh perspective is a good thing.

But, to throw all eventers in a blood-thirsty abusers camp is nothing but baseless snark. Especially when they act like there have not been weeks of discussion and study done to try and uncover the cause of these accidents and fix it. With out knowing the cause, we can do nothing.... if the powers that be were to act without information and data it would simply be feeding hysteria, and it would do nothing to help the true problem. It would fix nothing. But to act like nothing is being done, and that eventers are all just sitting on our hands, or twiddling our thumbs is egregiously wrong.

[retreadeventer]

I think we are unfortunately in the midst of a media storm.

Anyone's opinion gets the same read as the front page of the New York Times. Those of us who know the difference get irritated with the emphasis trivial points are getting from the uninformed.

The sport can survive a few editorials and opinions but what happened at Rolex on the heels of the NYT story is really very very bad for the sport. We will lose sponsors if we continue to lose horses.

Nobody wants this kind of publicity because it attracts opinion. Sponsors don't want to be notorious, they want to be popular.

Riders need to be more careful than any other group right now. So far they have not been blamed but the more things go along in the vein of studying and gathering data, I think we will find there is enough room to criticize them....

[c_expresso]

Thanks for putting my thoughts into words more eloquently than I could... :lol:

I don't place a whole lot of stock on anything coming from that board. Most of it is just malicious crap, from the "let's speculate on who is screwing who and how many marriages we can ruin" threads, to the "which junior wins the Brat (or other adjective) of the year award".

Now, that being said.... I am not against other disciplines expressing concern and saying "uhhh, what's going on over there?". And maybe even brainstorming ideas a bit. Honestly, sometimes a fresh perspective is a good thing.

But, to throw all eventers in a blood-thirsty abusers camp is nothing but baseless snark. Especially when they act like there have not been weeks of discussion and study done to try and uncover the cause of these accidents and fix it. With out knowing the cause, we can do nothing.... if the powers that be were to act without information and data it would simply be feeding hysteria, and it would do nothing to help the true problem. It would fix nothing. But to act like nothing is being done, and that eventers are all just sitting on our hands, or twiddling our thumbs is egregiously wrong.

[BLBGP]

I don't know of anyone who reads Horse Show Spy for educational, thoughtful discourse. But ranting about people questioning the safety of the sport isn't going to help things at the moment. There's already a perception that eventing tries to sweep these kind of issues under the rug. Especially after the whole Amy Tryon thing, where it really appeared on COTH and in the media that eventing folks "circled the wagons" so to speak. Thankfully, this does not seem to be happening right now. I truly believe that the vast majority of eventers care deeply about horses and hate to see things like this happen. But the truth is, there have been way too many deaths and injuries recently, and ranting about people who question why (even if they aren't always the most sympathetic or eloquent) doesn't help.

Hopefully these two deaths will be the last, and inspire innovative change in the sport.

Sometimes "kick on" isn't the answer.

[Gnep]

c epresso, absolutly fantastic.

Exactly.

You earned yourself 2 bottles of bubly water from me.

[EnjoyingRiding]

What c_expresso and seeuatx said...I tried to make the point late last night on another thread, but I'd just seen all the crap on hss and I kind of blew up about it...sorry about that, guys. But I definitely agree. Different perspective is fine if you are going add something logical and productive to the discussion of how we can make our sport more safe for upper level riders and horses. If you are just going to call all eventers animal haters, murderers, etc - then stay out.

[LisaB]

All we can do is educate, educate, educate

[tweeter]

Well, I'm not an eventer, and it's been a while since I even hunted (don't bounce well at all these days)

Do I think eventing is bad? Not at all, I love it! And honestly, I admire the way the eventing community is trying to come together to work on solutions. The recent events have been heartbreaking, especially for those of you that know the horses and riders involved.

Your sport is a great on, you'll find some solutions, I know you will. In the meantime, ride safe and be kind to each other :)

[magnolia73]

Horseshow Spy is full of such errr.... well.... gossip. Kind of like forming your opinions based on the National Enquirer.

I think both disciplines can chill out. Immediately. Sadly, there ARE eventers who are dangerous, there ARE HJ people who over longe, over drug, overshow and over charge, there are western people who do stupid crap, there are dressage people that suck. Eventers do seem to be the best at acting like bad eventers don't exist. I think some weeding out is in order- or at least some big reality checks to the minority that need to re-think their training or move down a few levels to be safe.

Thank GOD there are EXCELLENT people in all disciplines. Most likely, they do not post on Horseshowspy.com. There are so many eventers that I would love to have train my horse. And a few that I would pass on. Same goes with HJ.

Everyday, people make good decisions and bad decisions. I think sometimes eventers can be in denial about the bad decisions and write off bad decisions as accidents. The term "EVENTER" is not a free pass to horsemanship. Not relying on grooms and trainers, not caring about ribbons, riding cheap horses- none of that justifies bad decisions or immediately qualifies you as a good horseman.

And people from the outside can see bad decison making and pass judgement. Most hunters know a thing or two about pace. Jumpers know how to set up a horse for a jump. A dressage rider can spot an unbalanced horse. An endurance rider can see the point where fatigue is dangerous.

It's time to face the problems that plague eventing, face them head on, acknowledge them and do your best not to be a part of them- whether it means moving down a level, questioning a coach, skipping an event with a sketchy jump or speaking up when you see dangerous riding.

[pdiddy]

c epresso, absolutly fantastic.

Exactly.

You earned yourself 2 bottles of bubly water from me.

I'm sure you meant 2 bottles of fanta as c_espresso is not old enough to partake.

[Samantha37]

Amen, sister!!!
Thank you for posting this, I have been thinking it for some time now.
I love the random asshats coming over here telling us how awful we are and that we abuse our horses, and how they would never event, or never permit one of their horses to be trained for eventing, etc.
Give me a break. Why even post? Keep your useless bitching to yourself. Most eventers right now are trying to figure ways to HELP the situation. To better the sport and make it safer for everyone. There have been some great ideas on here, and I know people are writing to USEA and USEF and I hope that everyone continues to... We are all devastated by what has happened recently, and we are all aware of the dangers of eventing. But instead of whining, we are working towards tightening up rules and making courses safer.

But, seriously, people who are coming over here to tell us that we abuse our horses by eventing... SHUT UP!

[kacey'srider]

But, to throw all eventers in a blood-thirsty abusers camp is nothing but baseless snark. Especially when they act like there have not been weeks of discussion and study done to try and uncover the cause of these accidents and fix it. With out knowing the cause, we can do nothing.... if the powers that be were to act without information and data it would simply be feeding hysteria, and it would do nothing to help the true problem. It would fix nothing. But to act like nothing is being done, and that eventers are all just sitting on our hands, or twiddling our thumbs is egregiously wrong.

Quite honestly, I have had many a sleepless night over the past few days with these thoughts running through my head. I'm pregnant and can't sleep anyway.. can't ride either b/c my horse is on stall rest, so at night, I have a lot of time.

I am so saddened by some of the things others who do not event have said. Questioning the horsemanship of Laine or 95% of eventers broke my heart. B/c 100% of the time, I am proud to say I am an eventer b/c I know no others who take such immaculate care of their horses.
To question the fitness level that we are competing are horses at bothered me too. I personally busted my hiney to get my older mare with slight recovery issues in top shape just to run training level! I know the thought, time and consideration that goes into getting a horse ready to compete at any level.
To say that we don't love our horses and put them first - BS!!!!

I want to have a sport to come back to when Kacey and I are back on our feet. I KNOW that we belong in eventing and that we are among the top horseman in the horse world!

Thanks for letting me vent too!

Sniff sniff... I love you all fellow eventers!!! And miss you! See you on horseback in the fall!

[Mozart]

Well I'm going to add my two cents that the eventing community really must guard against "closing ranks" and saying to the critic "you just don't understand". Because, frankly my dear, anyone who uses a horse for sport DOES get to have an opinion on the current state of eventing. Just as you get to have an opinion on the dressage horse that never leaves the ring, the four year old reining horse that needs hock injections and is retired at eight, the crazing shoeing of some Tennesse walkers etc.

What happens in one discipline does affect everyone like it or not.

Someone on another thread called Rolex 2008 eventing's 9/11. Very apt, I think. Because as I mentioned elsewhere, I am done with eventing. I LOVED eventing and some of my favourite memories in a saddle are associated with the sport. I have organized horse trials, I have officiated at horse trials (up to FEI btw) and I have continued to volunteer for eveting. But no more. And when people like me can't stomache it anymore, your sport is in trouble.

I hope it can be fixed and I hope those fixing it can remember what it was supposed to test for (hint "an all around athletic and well trained horse" ). A sport where we all collectively hold our breaths until every horse crosses the finish line really does not have a future.

[LSM1212]

I choose not to comment on the "specifics" of change that is needed in Eventing since...well... I'm not an Eventer. But have read many threads, posts and articles regarding what's going on lately.

But I'm going to "dabble" in Eventing this year and some of the posts and insight has really helped me "prepare" for this endeavor. I never aspire to do anything big. Heck, I probably won't even make it to BN.

I hate to say it, but all disciplines bash others. In one way or another. Seems to be human nature. I've ridden and shown in many disciplines (WP, Hunt Seat, Walkers, Driving, etc.). But currently am a Hunter rider. But very open to trying new things... hence, the mini-trial I have entered!

But to me, we are all "horsepeople" regardless of the chosen "sport" or lack there of. And we need to band TOGETHER to help one another. But I'm not going to express my opinion until I am more "educated" in the discipline. Which I am doing right now... and maybe, I can give some insight from another point of view.

:D

[c_expresso]

GOSH, just read my posts!!

I said MULTIPLE TIMES that I ENCOURAGE people to throw in their two cents on eventing. Any advice is good and and suggestions that may help fix our beloved sport are MUCH appreciated.

What I don't appreciate is calling all eventers "murders". You must admit that is HEINOUS!

Please do not be done with eventing. I don't understand how someone can be done with eventing. The lower levels are safe. Don't give up on eventing, stay safe at the lower levels and help us fix the upper levels.

As far as I am concerned someone who can give up and walk away from an amazing sport and such a fantastic community was never really an eventer at all.

Well I'm going to add my two cents that the eventing community really must guard against "closing ranks" and saying to the critic "you just don't understand". Because, frankly my dear, anyone who uses a horse for sport DOES get to have an opinion on the current state of eventing. Just as you get to have an opinion on the dressage horse that never leaves the ring, the four year old reining horse that needs hock injections and is retired at eight, the crazing shoeing of some Tennesse walkers etc.

What happens in one discipline does affect everyone like it or not.

Someone on another thread called Rolex 2008 eventing's 9/11. Very apt, I think. Because as I mentioned elsewhere, I am done with eventing. I LOVED eventing and some of my favourite memories in a saddle are associated with the sport. I have organized horse trials, I have officiated at horse trials (up to FEI btw) and I have continued to volunteer for eveting. But no more. And when people like me can't stomache it anymore, your sport is in trouble.

I hope it can be fixed and I hope those fixing it can remember what it was supposed to test for (hint "an all around athletic and well trained horse" ). A sport where we all collectively hold our breaths until every horse crosses the finish line really does not have a future.

[wlrottge]

Nah, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to getting peeved--I do it all the time. :) Venting is good, venting is fine, destructive and gratuitous b*tching is even fine in some circumstances, but not from the position of High and Mighty and utterly clueless. :)

bravo!!! bravo!!

[chunky munky]

Okay, I am the ONLY one sick and tired of people who know nothing about eventing telling us what needs to be done, or that eventers are killers and our horses are abused?

I TOTALLY appreciate input from people in different disciplines. It gives a new perspective. I also respect anyone who does not want to event, or thinks it is dangerous.

However ranting about how horrible eventing is when you know jack $h!t about it does not help.

If anyone ever visits the BB 'Horse Show Spy' (it is pathetic btw) than you will know what I mean...



I had been very involved in the eventing world at one point in my life. I do see a value in the sport. I have been in the hunter jumper business for many years, a choice made by preference and economics. For someone of your age and experience to say that H/J people don't know jack about eventing is absurdist. Many know plenty, or at least enough to know you folks need to clean up your act and start policing yourselves. And people in other disciplines know plenty about horses and do not relish seeing preventable destruction.
The recent carnage of the last few years needed to be addressed with authority and much sooner than it has. You have created a situation that has the ability to outlaw your sport and cause serious ramifications for all other horse sports. It is not just the H/J's, or the dressagers that you seem to say know nothing about eventing who are finding this whole debacle extremely disturbing, but all animal loving people in general.
It is difficult to justify to the public what could possibly be good about flat out galloping a beautiful horse at a very large obstacle that doesn't fall down and is potentially deadly for human and beast if a mistake is made. To John Q., it looks like an episode of "Jackass".The seeming reluctance for self examination and radical change to rules, qualifications, speed, construction of obstacles and the kick on at all cost attitude that has been exhibited by all involved has now come back to bite eventers on their collective big white a$$. And frankly I find it shameful.
I do not beleive you have seen the tip of the outcry you are going to hear from many directions regarding protest of your sport. The sad part is that by dragging your feet in regard to reform you have shot yourselves through both of them.
It appears that perhaps some serious examination and ad hoc work is getting underway. In my humble opinion, the only way to avoid more disasters and crucifiction in the public eye is to put a moratorium on all events involving a cross country phase until these changes have been decided on and are implemented. Perhaps then people will see you are taking this seriously, rather than appearing to be all hat and no cattle.
My heart goes out to all that have had loved ones damaged or destroyed. I hope when the dust settles we will have a sport of eventing at all. Best of luck.

[RugBug]

Well I'm going to add my two cents that the eventing community really must guard against "closing ranks" and saying to the critic "you just don't understand". Because, frankly my dear, anyone who uses a horse for sport DOES get to have an opinion on the current state of eventing.

Yep.

When I read the OP, all I could think was 'I'm not catholic. I'm not an altar boy. Am I allowed to have an opinion on that?' Dismissing even the wild rantings of the high, mighty and utterly clueless is a great way to make people even more upset.

Calmly understanding that behind the wild rants people are showing how upset they are is the key to not telling 'em all to 'SHUT UP.'

[blackhorsegirl]

In reference to c_espresso saying that deaths of horses are rare (?). What planet has this person been living on? We are 4 month into the season and 5 horses have died and riders are in the hospital. What is wrong with this picture? Am I qualified to have an opinion? You bet your sweet bippy. I've been involved with eventing for years. My daughter was a YR and attending the NAYR Championships. I've judged fences. I've watched David O'Connor properly set us his fences and other pros (un-named) who should be banned from competition. I knew one of the horses who died. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. It needs to be fixed NOW!

[seeuatx]

Absolutely it needs to be fixed, and I think everyone is standing by that.

The title of the thread was reactionary, not to riders from other disciplines stating opinions or even criticisms, it was about plan old name calling. So, the point was if you actually think event riders are abusive, murdering crazy people and are about to proceed bashing everyone and threatening to turn people in for animal cruelty... then the title of the thread applies. Otherwise, welcome, and carry on.... fresh perspectives are a good thing.

[c_expresso]

If you compare the number of dead horses to the number of horses that have a run a horse trial this year, or even an ADVANCED horse trial, or a FEI event, they are statistically RARE. 5 out of a few hundred is OF COURSE too many, but some people are acting like the majority of horses are dying at EVERY event which is not true.

In reference to c_espresso saying that deaths of horses are rare (?). What planet has this person been living on? We are 4 month into the season and 5 horses have died and riders are in the hospital. What is wrong with this picture? Am I qualified to have an opinion? You bet your sweet bippy. I've been involved with eventing for years. My daughter was a YR and attending the NAYR Championships. I've judged fences. I've watched David O'Connor properly set us his fences and other pros (un-named) who should be banned from competition. I knew one of the horses who died. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. It needs to be fixed NOW!

[chunky munky]

Do not ignore seriously injured humans and animals in this equation. That is also a major player in the perception of eventing today.

[phurgus]

So are you all saying that there is NOTHING going wrong with eventing in the past few years?

Because I'm a non-eventer, however an avid fan, and I say there IS something wrong.

I don't question a particular ride or eventing in general, but there is something fishy in Denmark.

And as a fan and money-paying spectator, I hope to God they FIX it (whatever IT may be, and I won't pretend to know what IT is).

But I WILL take my money and go watch something where the fences fall down instead of the people...

[Equine Adhesive]

Hundred to thousands of racehorses die every year on the racetrack. That sport is not outlawed. Does anyone stop to think that the statistics on rider and equine deaths and injuries represented in the media are not a true reflection of the statistics in general?
A horse breaks down on the track and it is status quo. HAIL Barbaro for being a "hero", but damn the eventing community for "victims of abuse"? Somehow the rhetoric is not sinking in with me.

The real problem from what I can see, is not the number of rider/horse deaths and injuries, but the INCREASE in frequency, and the media has honed down on that increase as if no other riders/animals are harmed as much in other sports-- which is simply not true. Eventers need to find out why there is an increase-- is it because more people are competing? Is it because the athletes are not ready? Are the courses at fault? Etc.

Wanting to do away with a sport which has been successful for decades is just absurd, and sad. And no, the average hunter/jumper show rider does NOT understand eventing. (I say that from a h/j background myself.)

[Granada]

No one is trying to hide the accidents that have occurred in eventing. No one is dismissing them. The eventing community is trying to solve the problem. And I think the OP has stated many times that she and everyone else are appreciative of outsider's perspectives.

It is the misinterpretation by outsiders that eventers "have no care for the welfare of the horse" that upsets many of us.

Our sport is steeped in horse welfare, in horsemanship, in conditioning, nutrition, soundness. In eventing the horse and rider bond over three difficult, diverse days. At the upper levels, especially in the long format, riders literally CANNOT do this sport without superior horse health management every hour of every day. So this is the main reason why I am deeply saddened to see these accidents occurring more frequently in this sport that I grew up idolizing.

It is the asshats who are using this opportunity to attack eventing on the horse welfare front that are so frustrating. Especially because members in the eventing community, IME even more so than in most other equestrian communities, focus so closely on horse health and welfare. Maybe if you have never evented you have not seen this commitment to welfare among eventers. And I am not saying it is unique to eventers, just that superior horse health and welfare is one of the staples of our sport.

I think on the internet news is readily available. And lets face it, news is the "bad stuff". It is great because we can all be in the know. And we can all put our minds to work on how to fix the problem.

On the other hand, I think those who have not gone to events, who have not jump judged a fly fence and seen rider after rider come through with smiles slapped on their faces and shining horses, ears pricked and bright eyes, horses in all varieties and sizes, those who have not seen these horse and rider teams soaring over your fence on a sunny spring day... those who have not seen this at a local event miss the point that eventing is often good, is often safe, is often fun. But "often" is not good enough and that is why we need everyone's help and input.

But please keep in mind if you are an "outsider" that we love these horses, that we love this discipline. We appreciate your outside input, appreciate fresh points of view that we may not be able to see, and we will even listen disparaging comments towards our sport. But really are the disparaging comments helpful? Or are they just someone taking advantage of the chaos to get on their high horse and be disrespectful and rude? I think it is the latter in most cases. And I cannot dismiss lack of common tact as "emotion".

Personally, I too am sick of all the negativity and destructive criticism.

[Kementari]

Well, maybe some of these enlightened non-eventers can point out WHERE on this board eventers are sitting back and saying, "Oh, yeah, everything's fine." :mad:

Seriously.

Y'all keep saying that we aren't interested in changing, but at least half of the threads on the first page of this forum have something to do with improving the current situation in eventing.

It can't be done overnight. I know this comes as a shock, but, see, we have a RULE BOOK. It's full of useful things that are required to be done or followed at those pesky recognized events, and we all agree that we need to add/change some of those useful things to make eventing safer, but we can't just do it overnight. There's a process. We've started the process. But it takes some time. Just like changing rules in h/j or dressage or whatever other discipline you think is the be-all and end-all.

And, see, we're USING that time to actually STUDY what is happening, to try and ensure our solutions are actually SOLUTIONS, and not knee-jerk reactions that end up doing nothing to solve the real problems. I know, I know - making decisions based on FACTS is just sooooo unexciting (just look at all the myths horse people cling to on these boards every day in the face of blatant scientific proof to the contrary).

And, of course, damn us all for trying to understand ALL the facets of the problem before slapping on bandaids and proclaiming that the sport is now safer because, hey, at least we did something that looks good in press release - forget whether or not it actually WORKS. Whether or not it WORKS is completely secondary to whether it looks to people who wouldn't have a clue if someone shoved it down their throat as if it might have some effect someday in some alternate reality.

If you'd like to contribute intelligently to the ongoing discussion, then please do. We will best solve our problems by looking at as many ideas as possible. But if you can't even seem to FIND the ongoing discussion, please crawl back under your rock and stay there - permanently.

[arab_roots]

The media does what ever it takes to sell papers. I have learned first hand that the media tends to twist things and blow things out of proportion. Take for instance the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. All you hear is x amout of soldiers died to day or so and so killed innocent cillians. What you dont heare about is all the good that we are doing. For instance my unit has built over 300 miles of roads and countless humanitarian missions but have you heard about that. The American culture has a facination with gruesome numbers whether it be soldiers getting killed or horrible rotational falls that happen. Alot of people take what the media says as the whole truth and dont bother to do their own research. To point fingers at eventers as killers and what not is the wrong answer. Animal rights activist have been waving the cruelty card at any one who rides for the longest of time. We need to circle the wagons as RIDERS across the board regardless of the discipline that you ride. I have had alot of time to think about this seeings how I am getting ready to go home and we have fewer missions. I am heading home with a heavy heart knowing that the sport that I love is under attack. But I fear not because we are the people that no matter how many times fall we do our best to get back on and find a way to stay on. Intestinal fortitude is a staple of eventing and that will get us through these dark times and find the answers that we need to improve saftey across the board. :yes:

[kt-rose]

Off the current topic for a second...Arab_Roots -- I just want you to know that there are some of us here who do look for the whole story and follow the good done by our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq carefully. We are proud and grateful for your sacrifice and work!!!! Thank you and have a safe trip home!!!

[canterlope]

The seeming reluctance for self examination and radical change to rules, qualifications, speed, construction of obstacles and the kick on at all cost attitude that has been exhibited by all involved has now come back to bite eventers on their collective big white a$$. And frankly I find it shameful.andThe sad part is that by dragging your feet in regard to reform you have shot yourselves through both of them.Chunky Munky, it is comments like these that set eventers teeth on edge. Especially given the fact that eventers are, and have been for quite some time, examining their sport and searching for ways to make it safer. Even more distressing is when eventers say, "hey, wait a second, we are working on ways to make our sport safer," they are accused of burying their heads in the sand, dragging their feet, or refusing to self-examine their sport. None of this is fair, right, or conducive to achieving anything positive which is why eventers have such a hard time getting bashed by people who don't take the time to find out what is being done before swinging their bats.

[Mayaty02]

I am a H/J person myself but have evented, hunted and pony clubbed as well and do believe I "understand" it.

What gets my upset is that the eventing world should not be directing their emotions and anger at the H/J world....that is a misdirection of feelings and it's not fair to put all H/J people in a pot and tell them to shut up. The website you mentioned is a joke, it's it people making shocking statements to be entertaining, take it for what it is. There is one post on the H/J board of COTH about the situation and the original OP had an interesting point of view about how the weekends deaths may affect the perception of the outside public on other equestrian events, which was jumped upon by almost everyone in defense of eventing (by both H/js and Eventers).

So yes, vent away, but know that we are all horse people and animal lovers and that's why we CARE. You can't just tell us all to take our opinions and go away - that's disrespectful my dear.

I personally don't think eventing is "done for" and I think it's obvious that the community and the overall organizations are doing alot, NOW, to pull together and figure out what the issues are, and fix them. Kudos to you all.

[jhodkin]

Sorry about the essay, but this is a complex problem and therefore it has complex things to consider...

I think there are a number of factors at play here:

1. Information on what is happening around the world is much more available than it was when I was eventing. I only knew about incidents that happened in my locality, never mind the rest of the UK and certainly not the world. Going back even 10 years, in the UK I would not have known about the death of the rider in Austria, the death of the rider in Ireland or the horse deaths in the USA. Having the worldwide web is a great blessing, but with it comes access to much more bad news as well as good news. The point I'm trying to make is that in previous years most of us would have been unaware of how many deaths or injuries were occurring and with greater access to information, comes a greater awareness of injuries.
Although clearly incidencies have gone up, I don't think that in reality they have gone up as dramatically as we perceive they have.

2. Many, many more people are now eventing which is a wonderful thing. In the last few years, membership in the UK has increased dramatically. With an increase in people taking part, it naturally follows that there will be more incidencies. That's just a statistical fact. Therefore more accidents doesn't actually automatically mean there is now a problem (although I'm not saying there isn't a problem!, just that if you increase partipants you will automatically increase accidents as they are directly linked).

3. Change in format. Mmmmm a tough one as there's simply not enough data yet to tell us empirically what impact this has had. My gut feeling, and this is just a gut feeling - is that by removing the stamina element from the format a number of knock on effects have happened -
a) Horses are not always as fit as they were for a long format competition
b) Riders are not always as fit as they were for a long format competition
c) Horses are run more frequently
d) Horses are not always given a couple of months off after a major competition like they used to be with long format
e) In order to compensate for the 'reduction in challenge' by removing phases A-C, course designers have tried to make up for that by demanding a higher standard of rider techinical competance (which is not always there), and therefore misjudgements/mistakes by the rider have potentially increased
f) Increased course techinicality has in some instances resulted in a higher degree of gymnastic ability being required from the horses (which some of the older, big galloping tracks didn't quite do in the same way). Some horses are perhaps not quite gymanstic enough to deal with these questions, ....especially if they are not quite as fit as they used to be... (Back to point a))
g) In order to take these 'techincal' fences safely, a slower speed with a collected canter & lots of impulsion is required. Great if you can do this, but again a tired rider &/or tired horse may struggle. The other issue is, that because you have had to slow so much for the fence, the cruising speed between fences MUST be higher in order to still cover 570mpm. Perhaps this may be a contributing factor to the increase in Pulmonary embelism cases we have had. Again - speeding up then slowing down, then speeding up ad nauseum is far more tiring than maintaining a consistent speed. Any great xc rider will tell you secret to safe and fast xc is to get into a rhythm and interfere with your horse as little as possible. The demands of the 'modern' track, and the demands of good xc riding may therefore now be at odds (conflicting).
h) If falls are occurring later in the course the elements of tiredness and technicality may come into play, if they are earlier in the course, it MAY by the result of having no phases A-C to warm up and settle the horse. I have seen many horses coming out the start box and almost running blind because they are so keen. If a horse is fighting the rider and/or running through the bridle with it's head up, there is no way it is going to be able to adequately weigh up the question it's about to tackle, and the rider is fighting a losing battle to try to put the horse in the right spot to jump it safely.

4. Rider 'education'. I get what David and the likes are saying about the fact that riders are coming through the sport is a different way to how we used to, but I believe this is just a part of the problem, and in no way the problem in totality. I remember seeing complete nutters rider round xc courses in my day too, but the fences weren't so technical and you could get away with being a mile off and still getting away with it. I totally agree with David's proposals in Trainer education. We are one of very few sports where just anyone can train someone without ever being assessed themselves. I hope they are keeping information on who trains the people who are falling.... That might be quite enlightening in itself...

BTW - Reed - I would be very interested in your views on this next bit, given your job background. You commented on another thread that people wouldn't ride differently if fences were all collapsable. I would have to disagree with you on this based on my education (although as this was some 20 years ago (ahem), it may have been superceeded). When I did my degree, I did my dissertation on 'The Environmental Impacts on Road Accidents'. Part of reserach involved working through the papers produced by the British Road Transport Research Centre (as it was called then). One of these was a paper regarding the 'Risk Homeostatis Theory'. In a nutshell what it said was - as human beings, we operate at our optimal levels with a certain degree of adrenelin running through us. For each individual, this level of adrenelin is different. In the case of cars - the theory was that if you asked an individual to drive a car from A-B as fast as they could, but the car had no power steering, no anti-lock brakes, no airbag, no sports suspension etc. they would drive it more carefully than if you gave them the same car but with improved safety measures. In other words, if you put someone in a high risk situation they will take steps to reduce the risk to a level they are comfortable operating at. At the other end of the spectrum, if you remove large amounts of risk from a situation, people will take more risks themselves to move the adrenelin level back up to where they operate best. Based on theory, I would contend that if you made fences out of polystryrene for example, the fear factor is virtually negligable, which if you then apply this theory, would mean people would take more risks - i.e. ride faster. take more acute lines etc. to get the risk level back up.
- Just another piece on information to throw into the mix. Views welcome :D

I completely agree that something must change. However I don't think all the evils can be laid at the door of one cause and hysteria certainly isn't helpful. Also, I don't agree with the suggestion of a temporary suspension of competing as has been suggested, as this hurts the very people that make our sport possible - the organisers, sponsors and volunteers that run events. If you decide to take a temporary break whilst you contemplate your naval, which results in events that have already spent out money to set up going bankrupt, you may find you have no sport left to come back to... Organisers once bitten are twice shy.

As a final note - our sport is a noble one steeped in history, but it is just that - a sport. I have no desire 'dumb-down' or degrade the challenge our sport presents to it's competitors because this is the exact reason we do it, BUT -
We cannot stand back and say 'welcome to our sport, you'll love it - but by the way, if you make a mistake you could die' - this attitude is simply not acceptable and we must take CONSIDERED steps which are backed by LOGIC and/or EMPIRICAL evidence to move the sport to a safer place. More knee jerk stuff is not what we need, after all without evidence to support it's efficacy we may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire and actually make the situation worse.

[annikak]

Clapping hands for the abv post.

So very well said. Thank you,

I think it was Lucinda that said a 2" give in a fence (which just happened before, as we were less technical in our fence building and did not have the amazing materials we have now) saved lives. I have no way to know if this is true, but sure wish we could figure that out somehow-seems hard to prove.

I have said it before, and I'll say it here- it seems that there are a few quick fix's. Tables, gotta change. Oxers that are open. Find ways to ask the same questions without injuring the horse. I guess if the rider falls clear and has a serious ouch, then they might think. And this would not be at the expense of the horse.

Since you seem to know, looking at positive things, have horse leg injuries gotten better over the years from improving the footing?

(Oh my, I just had a thought- does the fact that we have improved footing SO much actually cause things to happen??? Is there any better footing then at Rolex and Redhills? The Upper Level courses always have terrific footing now...another thread to open....)

[chunky munky]

andChunky Munky, it is comments like these that set eventers teeth on edge. Especially given the fact that eventers are, and have been for quite some time, examining their sport and searching for ways to make it safer. Even more distressing is when eventers say, "hey, wait a second, we are working on ways to make our sport safer," they are accused of burying their heads in the sand, dragging their feet, or refusing to self-examine their sport. None of this is fair, right, or conducive to achieving anything positive which is why eventers have such a hard time getting bashed by people who don't take the time to find out what is being done before swinging their bats.

I am not swinging a bat. ( By the way, I watched the entire live feed of Rolex as it happened) You missed the point that I want to see your sport survive, but I believe thae USEA, USEF and FEI have not proven that they have made any significant changes in any of those categories that I mentioned above. If you love eventing I suggest that you address the idea that a complete moratorium regarding the cross country phase of the sport be activated until some serious adjustments are made. You will then be showing all sporting people, animal lovers and even your fellow eventers that you truly care about the welfare of your eqine and human competitors. You are loosing the support of your own ranks, folks. We cannot circle our wagons with you as much as we may want to until some serious changes are made. No other horse sport wants to jump on a sinking ship. TAKE SOME SERIOUS ACTION NOW. You need to show commitment, not just have another meeting and let business go on as usual.
You may hate my posts here, but you will hate much more what could ultimately happen to your sport through dwindling support due to lack of action and potential law suits that could shut down your whole organization. I am involved in obtaining sponsors for sporting events and would currently find 3 day a very hard sell to anyone that pays attention. If you are not careful you will lose the support of both spectators and sponsors. If that unfortunate scenario occurs, you will not go out with a bang, but with a whimper. Again, good luck. You have a big job ahead of you.

[Thomas_1]

Did you know that:

The accident incident rate has reduced year on year for the past 5 years.

Did you know that:

- British Eventing has over 10,000 members and over 12,500 horses registered
- There are over 66,000 cross country rounds each year
- Over 1,300,000 cross country fences are jumped annually

Did you know that:

Every time there's a rider fall at an event sanctioned by the FEI or BE then a Rider Fall Form has to be completed and returned to the Technical Delegate.

The form is comprehensive in terms of collecting information. It contains EVERYTHING relating to the circumstances, the environment, the jump: construction and type etc etc, the ground, the surrounding factors, the rider, the horse, the weather, the distance out. This forms the basis of accident investigation and ultimately accident analysis and prevention.

And here's the factual statistics for BE Sanctioned events. From these you will see there's been a year on year reduction of seriously/fatally injured riders as a percentage of the number of competitors. And that encouragingly all the indicators are showing a trend to reduction. (The same is mirrored in the FEI data)

Seriously/Fatally injured riders as a percentage of the number of competitors.
For UK events between July 05 and June 06: Indicator 1 = 0.11%
In total there were 1721 riders who fell in the BE and FEI UK events between 01 July 05 and 30 June 06. Of those 27 were seriously injured and there were no fatalities
For UK events between July 04 and June 05: Indicator 1 = 0.14%
In total there were 66 seriously injured rider and 1 fatality injured rider, out of 47,934 competitors recorded in the database for BE events between July 04 and June 05.
For UK events between July 03 and June 04: Indicator 1 = 0.17%
In total there were 69 seriously injured rider and 1 fatality injured rider, out of 41,221 competitors recorded in the database for BE events between July 03 and June 04.
For UK events between July 02 and June 03: Indicator 1 = 0.24%
In total there were 108 seriously injured rider and 1 fatality injured rider, out of 44,962 competitors recorded in the database for BE events between July 02 and June 03.

Indicator 2 is Horse somersault falls as a % of competitors: Again year on year decrease: 0.20%, 0.15%, 0.13%, 0.10%

Indicator 3 is Non somersault horse falls as a % of competitors: 0.52%, 0.51%, 0.41%, 0.32%

Indicator 4 is Unseated rider falls as a % of competitors: 2.79%, 2.87%, 2.66%, 2.53%

Did you know that:

There's some right garbage and anecdotal misinformation and presumption on the internet?

[jhodkin]

Thomas_1 - thank you for that emperical evidence. This is just the sort of information that actually needs to be out there for people to take on board, and is as I suspected related to perception of an increase rather than an actual % increase. Could I ask you to copy your thread and post it on the David O'Connor Letter thread as I think factual information like this might actually make for a more educated debate? - I have copied mine there now

[magnolia73]

The accident incident rate has reduced year on year for the past 5 years.

In Great Britain, from mid '02 to mid '06, at sanctioned events.

I can give you cheery data from mid '02 to mid '06 from Charlotte North Carolina and say "Hey people, the housing market keeps getting better and better in the US!" Even though in 2008.... things are not so pretty.

Our current problem appears to be safety at the highest levels over what appears to be a trend that started late in 2006 or so. Your data set excludes that. That said, USEA needs to track data like that so that you can post the same stats for the US.

I track trends in real estate. Historic data tells me about 30% of what I need to know. Interviews and observations of current conditions coupled with my experience and knowledge tells me about 40% of what I need to know. 20% is looking to the future, seeing what is planned, in the pipeline. 10% is gut instinct.

[Mozart]

GOSH, just read my posts!!

I said MULTIPLE TIMES that I ENCOURAGE people to throw in their two cents on eventing. Any advice is good and and suggestions that may help fix our beloved sport are MUCH appreciated.

What I don't appreciate is calling all eventers "murders". You must admit that is HEINOUS!

Please do not be done with eventing. I don't understand how someone can be done with eventing. The lower levels are safe. Don't give up on eventing, stay safe at the lower levels and help us fix the upper levels.

As far as I am concerned someone who can give up and walk away from an amazing sport and such a fantastic community was never really an eventer at all.

Actually, I did read your post quite carefully, together with the title that said "If you don't know what you're talking about SHUT UP". See, that is exactly the kind of closing the ranks attitude I am talking about. I appreciate you are upset and frustrated that eventers are being called abusive murderers, comments like that are clearly inaccurate and mean spirited and are not worthy of your ire.

But the fact is, if you want your sport to survive (and I am really talking about the elite level, Pony Club rallies and the horse trial with a bazillion BN rides will go on) you cannot dismiss the comments of those who "just don't understand" and "were never really TRUE eventers anyway". Because our opinion makes a difference. We are people who use horses for sport, we accept that there is a continuum of risk, and that even talking your horse for a hack in the park requires the acceptance of some risk.

The eventing community, for the sake of it's sport , has to do a big MEA CULPA and dig deep for fundamental change. And it well may be that modern technology means we know about every stumble across the world but that matters not a whit. It does not change the reality that the information is available to everybody, including every deep pocketed sponsor or potential event horse owner.

You currently have an INCONVENIENT TRUTH. And that truth is that before the first horse set out on course last weekend, every event supporter around the world said a silent prayer "Please (insert deity here), don't let any horses die this weekend" Can you honestly say that goes hand in hand with fair test of the equine athlete"

And two horses died. And the world knows about it. You cannot get around that.

So stop getting defensive when "unbelievers" question your sport and dig deep and make your governing bodies make wholesale, fundamental changes that make for a safe and fair test of the all around equine athlete.

[chunky munky]

Mozart, you and I are working on the same page. What we have here is exactly an inconvenient truth.

[Granada]

the theory was that if you asked an individual to drive a car from A-B as fast as they could, but the car had no power steering, no anti-lock brakes, no airbag, no sports suspension etc. they would drive it more carefully than if you gave them the same car but with improved safety measures. In other words, if you put someone in a high risk situation they will take steps to reduce the risk to a level they are comfortable operating at.

I have to say this idea is spot on IME. I drive my 30 yro BMW much slower and more carefully than my modern car but it feels just as fast. Also I am always aware of slowing for turns, accelerating through the turn, passing other cars with the old car, shifting etc just because it takes more skill and concentration to drive. The adrenaline level is high when I am going 60mph but I will drive 80mph in my modern car and think nothing of it.

jhodkin, THANK YOU! your entire post is exactly the jist of what I have been thinking too. Thank you for putting it so eloquently!

[VentDependent]

Yeah it isn't working for me either...

Anyway,

You don't see us over in the hunter/jumper forum calling them abusive for lunging their horses hours on end before classes, or telling the DQs to take their horse on a damn trail ride for once, or yelling at endurance riders for riding on bad footing, etc. Of course there is evil in all disciplines, but I like to think it is hardly the norm. But whining about stuff you know nothing about is useless. While the accidents in eventing are horrific and have happened one too many times, overall they are RARE. Some are making out all levels of eventing a bloodbath which is blatantly wrong.I hear that. I wanted to event when I was younger but I went another route instead-but I'm still interested. I would never presume to tell you how to ride/train/compete, just as you would probably never try to tell me how to prepare Ben for a Western Trail competition.

[Rallycairn]

Did you know that:

The accident incident rate has reduced year on year for the past 5 years.

Did you know that:

- British Eventing has over 10,000 members and over 12,500 horses registered
- There are over 66,000 cross country rounds each year
- Over 1,300,000 cross country fences are jumped annually

Did you know that:

Every time there's a rider fall at an event sanctioned by the FEI or BE then a Rider Fall Form has to be completed and returned to the Technical Delegate.

The form is comprehensive in terms of collecting information. It contains EVERYTHING relating to the circumstances, the environment, the jump: construction and type etc etc, the ground, the surrounding factors, the rider, the horse, the weather, the distance out. This forms the basis of accident investigation and ultimately accident analysis and prevention.

And here's the factual statistics for BE Sanctioned events. From these you will see there's been a year on year reduction of seriously/fatally injured riders as a percentage of the number of competitors. And that encouragingly all the indicators are showing a trend to reduction. (The same is mirrored in the FEI data) ...




Is data about horse injuries and fatalities collected?

[Shrapnel]

Okay, I am the ONLY one sick and tired of people who know nothing about eventing telling us what needs to be done, or that eventers are killers and our horses are abused?

I TOTALLY appreciate input from people in different disciplines. It gives a new perspective. I also respect anyone who does not want to event, or thinks it is dangerous.

However ranting about how horrible eventing is when you know jack $h!t about it does not help.

If anyone ever visits the BB 'Horse Show Spy' (it is pathetic btw) than you will know what I mean...

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU FOR STARTING THIS THREAD!!!

I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!! :yes:

[Thomas_1]

Is data about horse injuries and fatalities collected?
erm... yes!

[gooddirt]

I have to say this idea is spot on IME. I drive my 30 yro BMW much slower and more carefully than my modern car but it feels just as fast. Also I am always aware of slowing for turns, accelerating through the turn, passing other cars with the old car, shifting etc just because it takes more skill and concentration to drive. The adrenaline level is high when I am going 60mph but I will drive 80mph in my modern car and think nothing of it.

jhodkin, THANK YOU! your entire post is exactly the jist of what I have been thinking too. Thank you for putting it so eloquently!


EGGZACKLY!!!!

Think back several years to the "friendly jump face" movement. I don't know about other event sites, but we actually modified the faces of some existing jumps to round out the faces better.

We were happy to do it and we believed it was a good thing, but I had misgivings and I expressed them at that time. I recalled reading about the frustration of highway engineers who designed "safe" new roads, only to find that speeds went up along with the severity of crashes, because drivers felt safer. That's when I read up on risk homeostasis.

Nevertheless, whenever we build new jumps now friendly faces are top priority. We also use lots of ground lines to make them friendlier, even at steps out of water.

For several years now, the sport has had the USEA XC jump construction guiidelines and one of the recommendations is to slope the front faces to be horse friendly.

But does anybody think that the overall level of safety has improved after several years of building more friendly jump faces? On the contrary, the unintended consequence is this: We have encouraged bad results by making it easier to move up too fast.

Why should the unintended consequences of collapsible fences be any different?

[Rallycairn]

erm... yes!

And do you know what that data is or where it could be found? # of horses killed or catastrophically injured? Or even career-ending injuries?

Thanks

[poopoo]

I wonder what will happen at Jersey Fresh coming up, or better yet, the OLYMPICS?????

[c_expresso]

I wonder what will happen at Jersey Fresh coming up, or better yet, the OLYMPICS?????

I hope Jersey goes well... I'll be there watching... eeks.

[DustInTime04]

I am not swinging a bat. ( By the way, I watched the entire live feed of Rolex as it happened) You missed the point that I want to see your sport survive, but I believe thae USEA, USEF and FEI have not proven that they have made any significant changes in any of those categories that I mentioned above. If you love eventing I suggest that you address the idea that a complete moratorium regarding the cross country phase of the sport be activated until some serious adjustments are made. You will then be showing all sporting people, animal lovers and even your fellow eventers that you truly care about the welfare of your eqine and human competitors. You are loosing the support of your own ranks, folks. We cannot circle our wagons with you as much as we may want to until some serious changes are made. No other horse sport wants to jump on a sinking ship. TAKE SOME SERIOUS ACTION NOW. You need to show commitment, not just have another meeting and let business go on as usual.
You may hate my posts here, but you will hate much more what could ultimately happen to your sport through dwindling support due to lack of action and potential law suits that could shut down your whole organization. I am involved in obtaining sponsors for sporting events and would currently find 3 day a very hard sell to anyone that pays attention. If you are not careful you will lose the support of both spectators and sponsors. If that unfortunate scenario occurs, you will not go out with a bang, but with a whimper. Again, good luck. You have a big job ahead of you.

As another fellow eventer, who totally agrees with the fact that reforms must be made, your posts do nothing but make us seem like we are waiting for an answer to fall in our laps. Firstly, there are plenty of people taking action, and I am sure many on this Bulletin Board have sent letters to USEA, FEI, etc. with ideas on how to help. This is not an overnight affair, and nobody wants to see horses and riders getting injured or dying, so these organizations are trying to solve the many issues. Secondly, another meeting and let business go as usual? I don't think any of these board members who are trying to save the sport they love are just attending meetings and chatting casually about this. No one, and certainly the represenatives of this sport, want to allow these deaths to continue to grow.

Also, it's not like all eventers are sitting back thinking that these are just fluke accidents. We all realize that it boils down to the love of our partners and keeping eventing as safe as any sport with an 1000 pound animals can be. So on here, when people see other disciplines starting to direct all the accidents towards us infront of our computers, we can only feel insulted.

Being at Rolex and witnessing Dornin North's fall, then Sarah Hansel's The Quiet Man, Heidi White, Corinne Ashton, and Lainey with Frodo, and later Boyd Martin, this sport without a doubt has much to do in order to get back on track. Falls happen all the time, just not deaths and serious injuries. But I don't feel as people on a Bulletin Board we should get the finger pointed at us, especially when people are providing input and really, everyone already clearly understands what is happening.

Katie

[bip]

Although clearly incidencies have gone up, I don't think that in reality they have gone up as dramatically as we perceive they have.

Maybe this has already been said, I haven't read every single post, but I frankly don't care if accidents are actually up or not. There are too many horse and rider fatalies and severe injuries period. We live in more enlightened times. "That's the way it's always been" is no excuse.

I love eventing, and I don't want it to change, but some changes are imperative because the level of accidents is unacceptable, even if it always was that way and we just didn't know it because of limitations in communications technology (God, I hope we don't discover that yes, it's always been this deadly!)

[chunky munky]

As another fellow eventer, who totally agrees with the fact that reforms must be made, your posts do nothing but make us seem like we are waiting for an answer to fall in our laps. Firstly, there are plenty of people taking action, and I am sure many on this Bulletin Board have sent letters to USEA, FEI, etc. with ideas on how to help. This is not an overnight affair, and nobody wants to see horses and riders getting injured or dying, so these organizations are trying to solve the many issues. Secondly, another meeting and let business go as usual? I don't think any of these board members who are trying to save the sport they love are just attending meetings and chatting casually about this. No one, and certainly the represenatives of this sport, want to allow these deaths to continue to grow.

Also, it's not like all eventers are sitting back thinking that these are just fluke accidents. We all realize that it boils down to the love of our partners and keeping eventing as safe as any sport with an 1000 pound animals can be. So on here, when people see other disciplines starting to direct all the accidents towards us infront of our computers, we can only feel insulted.

Being at Rolex and witnessing Dornin North's fall, then Sarah Hansel's The Quiet Man, Heidi White, Corinne Ashton, and Lainey with Frodo, and later Boyd Martin, this sport without a doubt has much to do in order to get back on track. Falls happen all the time, just not deaths and serious injuries. But I don't feel as people on a Bulletin Board we should get the finger pointed at us, especially when people are providing input and really, everyone already clearly understands what is happening.

Katie


Why will none of you address a moratorium????!!! Stop the X/c until you make serious changes or you will hurt ALL of horse sports. That is why no one will stand behind you.:no:

[Kementari]

<feeding troll>

So if a jumper dies, should we take out all the jumps and make them canter around the arena a few times and judge it like a dressage test?

Do you SERIOUSLY think that running every recognized event without xc will do anything but make organizers broke as no one bothered to pay those kinds of entry fees for a TWO PHASE??

Which planet do you LIVE on??

I would support a complete standdown for some period of time, as Reed has suggested. Events already open would keep their entry fees, as they generally do in face of a cancellation, and those not yet open wouldn't have to spend all the money to get ready to RUN the event, so the loss of entry fees wouldn't be felt as acutely. Plus, it gives everyone time to REALLY look at the options while not distracted by anything else. Just removing xc does NEITHER of those things.

I do really wish they would put more emphasis on teaching critical thinking in high school. Though perhaps that would not help the clearly middle school aged troll.

</feeding troll>

[Thomas_1]

Why will none of you address a moratorium????!!! Possibly because its a stark staring bonkers suggestion!

Stop the X/c until you make serious changes or you will hurt ALL of horse sports. And that's an illogical fallacy

That is why no one will stand behind you.:no: For goodness sakes get real. Eventing is a sport that's had huge increase in popularity. Both from a participant and spectator perspective. Badminton is taking place right now and the fact there's been no moratorium hasn't affected attendance at all.

Did you know in this piddling little island alone:

- British Eventing has over 10,000 members and over 12,500 horses registered
- There are over 66,000 cross country rounds each year
- Over 1,300,000 cross country fences are jumped annually
- Accident:incident rate on all indicators has gone down year on year since the Hartingdon Committee and that holds true for fatality/serious injury too.

[Kementari]

Possibly because its a stark staring bonkers suggestion!

Thomas, I think I love you! :winkgrin:

[jhodkin]

Why will none of you address a moratorium????!!! Stop the X/c until you make serious changes or you will hurt ALL of horse sports. That is why no one will stand behind you.:no:

Mmmmm and that's why they sell so many copies of the 'Thrills and Spills' videos and why everyone congregates at the water in the hope of seeing someone fall of... The general public seems to enjoy watching people have accidents. That's why we have really popular TV programmes like 'You've been framed'.

The issue is not about people falling off. That happens, always has, always will. I don't want to live in a world where Health & Safety concerns mean I can't get on a horse without so much body armour, crash hats etc.etc.etc. that I lose the special bond and feel that there is when you sit on a horse. The feeling of 'oneness' will be gone which in turn may impact a horse's willingness to work with you.

The issue is about changing the situation to one where if you fall off you and your horse are less likely to die. Unfortunately being anywhere near a horse could cause potential death. You don't even need to be on one to get killed. Anything that weighs half a ton and has a mind of it's own is INTRINSICALLY DANGEROUS.

There have been some excellent suggestions put forward on several of the threads and my ears pricked up at the comments both Denny and Lucinda Green have made about fences having a bit of give in them in the past - that could be the little thing that makes a huge difference.

Please stop throwing stones and acting like eventers are a bunch of idiots who are happy to have their horses killed just so they can have a 'whuppee' weekend away. It's offensive, unnecessary and unhelpful.

[Thomas_1]

Thomas, I think I love you! :winkgrin: Are you attractive and rich and do you want to keep an old man in a luxury lifestyle in his dotage?

[magnolia73]

Thomas- do you have the stats on equine losses?

Off the top of my head, since the Fork last year, I can think of 8 UL horses (intermediate and up) that have died on course or as a result of injuries. That's a lot of loss of a relatively small universe over a short time. Now, it may be that I follow eventing more closely, but I don't know that say, in Grand Prix you have the same level/rate of catastrophic injury.

I do think blanket statements- eventing is awful and they don't care! suck. But you know, a level of concern is appropriate. And honestly, until Red Hills I didn't see too much action outside of discourse on the BB. In fact, last year at this time, I'd say the majority on the BB had a pretty cavalier attitude about fatal accidents being a part of XC.

I think we, as a society are evolving (devolving?) and less tolerant of "abuse" or perceived abuse of any animal. I'm sure that 30, 40,50 even 60 years ago there was more of a perception of horses as workers. Now they are "pets" and partners. We have a different relationship with animals and horses have moved away from being livestock and into being well, pets. So in general, we are less tolerant of loss- even if we are seeing fewer fatalities.

I know that 15 years ago, I would have bought and been entertained by Eventing Thrills and Spills. Now the idea sickens me. Watching animals struggle is not entertainment. That said, I have little tolerance for many other disciplines litte "quirks" that are done in the name of competition. So yes, it may well be thrilling to gallop over huge jumps for the rider- I think it is a bit unfair to try to push a horse to the edge of his ability, especially when a small error- a missed distance or lack of balance can be fatal. I think it is unfair to longe a horse for hours that is revved up due to lack of turnout on a 6 week show circuit so it can pack an ammy around 2'6. I think it is unfair to change a horses hooves so it moves with "flair".

I do think that in all disciplines there is the ability to compete within a humane manner for the horse- even upper level eventing. I think progress will be made and it is now on the radar and a conbination of fairer course design, more rider reponsibility, technology in jump design and a better understanding of the physiological effects of the short format and new "start go" courses will accomodate this. Just so it stays on the front burner, I think we will need big mouths for a while.

[Mozart]

magnolia73 I think you too have hit the heart of this issue. Times they are a changin'. Just because there is an upsurge of popularity at lower levels does not mean that elite eventing is not in peril.

Thomas, could you have imagined, 40 years ago, that there would be a ban on fox hunting in the UK of all places? You would have said it was inconceivable.

Of course there is a risk involved in any equestrian endeavour. Any kind whatsoever. Horses pay for our mistakes all the time. And all riders are going to make mistakes, even the best. Society's tolerance for horses paying that price is only going to decrease. Anything else is just putting your head in the sand, I'm afraid.

[SR Rider]

I vote against anytime of ban...for one thing the time you have with your horse is
limited. Horses and people get older, stuff happens, and this season might be the last you have to show your horse. ULR wont cease their showing because it is their livelihood..I dont think we can ask them to; so that means LLR should? I dont think so...my opinion only.

[Dressage62]

Are you attractive and rich and do you want to keep an old man in a luxury lifestyle in his dotage?

There's always a catch!
Hey-- I'm coming your way for Floors Castle Horse Trials....hoping for good weather