Foals too big for mare?

[Reddfox]

Ok, so my 13 year old maiden had her first foal - a strapping palomino colt.
She is a large Hanoverian mare, 16-3, large bone structure, so she has room to grow 'em.

The birth was hard on her, he wasn't coming out without help. I'm now terrified to breed her again. The colt (by a 15-3hh Morgan stallion) is a beauty and every bit as fancy as a purebred Hanoverian. It was a test breeding since we thought she was barren. I had my heart set on a breeding to Donarweiss, but now I'm worried that since her colt out of a little stallion was so huge, a foal out of a large warmblood would be too big for her.

Is this a legitimate concern, should I not breed her again or stick to ponies or what?! Her uterus is fine, but she has confirmed swelling over the urethra that is making her spew urine and she had 2nd degree tears around the rim of her vulva (they didn't go too far back.) Is is better to wait or to breed her right away if I'm going to breed her again.

I don't want to risk her health or lose her. Advice?

[YankeeLawyer]

I would consult with your vet regarding your mare's particular situation, but I believe that Donarweiss is on the smaller side, though I am not sure how big he is throwing. FWIW, I have a Hohenstein mare with a very similar body type and size (Donarweiss is out of a Hohenstein mare).

I do know he has been bred successfully to a pony mare to produce a sport pony, by Hof Mendenhall in MA.

In addition, typically foals only grow in utero to a size appropriate for the mare. But again, I would consult with your vet.

[Donella]

I would also contact the vet but they say height has nothing to do with it, but rather the width of the stallions chest and hips, although your mare sounds like she is rather wide. Donarweiss could easily be smaller width wise than the morgan, or at least not significantly larger. He is a small guy as far as wbs go.

[ise@ssl]

We lost a foal that was too big and fortunately did not lose the mare. We did breed her again after that and all went well with her other two foals.

It's important to look at the pedigree of the stallion as far as size - not just the stallion himself.

[Tiki]

You also need to look at what the stallion normally produces. For example, I was told by Hilltop years ago that Cor Noir, who was 17.2h, produced smaller, fine babies who grew tall, but Parabol, who is only 16.2h, produced very large babies who didn't grow as tall as the Cor Noir's. Most stallions produce according to the size of the mare, but as you are concerned, ask what size foal the stallion normally produces, not just how big he is.

[appaloosalady]

You might also have your vet check the size of your mare's pelvic opening. Just because a mare appears to be large doesn't mean that she has an equally large pelvis.

[ise@ssl]

I agree with the pelvis evaluation - though we've found if the mare is not very broad in the shoulder width - then the pelvis is also somewhat narrow.

[clint]

The first foal from my Hanoverian mare, who is about 16 hh, was a somewhat difficult birth for her. She also had swelling over the urethra and spewed urine for several weeks. No tearing, though. The foal was a tight fit, and she required a little help. The stallion was of moderate size, about 16.1. Subsequent foals, and there have been three, have been born without incident. The last two fillies were by 16.3 hh stallions.

[VirginiaBred]

Was your mare late? Was fescue involved?

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I've seen this with mares that went late due to eating fescue. Was she exposed to fescue during the last 3 months of gestation? It doesn't take much...5% of the diet only to cause problems.

Otherwise, it may just be that your mare had some trouble because she was maiden. Many of my maidens have needed help the first time.

[pintopiaffe]

Ditto the maiden thing. I have had two maidens have very difficult first births, and gone on to successive foaling with no trouble at all.

Sometimes young maidens are almost "too fit" or at least that's how it seems. The muscles and ligaments and such don't relax enough.

Talk to your vet, I don't think that this is the end of her broodmare career.


Just another thought--don't be fooled that the morganX foal was necessarily smaller than a WB foal either! I've known ArabX foals who had more bone and size at birth than their WBX cousins. Hybrid Vigour and breeds known for bone. The WB foals may have longer legs--but legs aren't all that hard to deliver. ;)

Take it ALL into consdieration, consult with a good repro vet. Certainly ask the SO what their stallion tends to throw... but don't loose all hope.

[Reddfox]

She was 3 weeks late. She streamed colostrum for 2 days before finally giving birth, we had already made arrangements to have colostrum on hand and the foal was tested so we made sure that he had enough.

I believe that there was fescue involved. I was told over and over again that there was none in the field that she was in. Then as she got later and later, i asked again and was told well, there's some, but it's doesn't have the endophyte (that's a load of crap). I of course did the rationale thing and flipped out :) and she was moved to a dry lot and we gave her what the vet recommended for mares that were exposed to fescue.

My vet is coming out again this weekend, so I'll ask her what she thinks about her pelvic size and all that. Thanks so much!

[Altamont Sport Horses]

You can buy fescue seed that doesn't have the endophyte in it. Some people will plant that for livestock. The problem is that it will cross pollinate with the other fescue that does have the endophyte in it. And as you get the fescue with the endophyte populating your pasture you'll be none the wiser because it looks the same.

Learn to identify different types of grasses including fescue so you can look out for it in the future.

Out of curiosity, was the sac enclosing the foal on the thick side or was it thin...assuming you have something to compare it to from the past?

[Reddfox]

We inspected the sac very closely since it detatched very early. (she stayed down for a few more minutes after Heli was born and strained, she stood, we went to tie it up so she wouldn't step on it and it just fell out - last portion was very red and bloody) Since she's a maiden we can't compare to her, but we compared to other mares. Vet said it was good- not overly thick, not torn, suprisingly good condition for an older maiden mare she said.

During the birth, we actually had to cut her a bit further up to allow the forehead to pass. I thought the shoulders were usually the problem, but he was presented correctly and everything else went smoothly once the head came out.

Was concerned that the placenta detached a bit early - she really didn't break water. Most of it stayed in the sac or seemed to drain back into her. If that can happen.

[Reddfox]

Also, thanks for the fescue information. I didn't know that it could be without the endophyte. Is there a test to confirm if the grass has it or not? I've been looking at books to learn to ID different grasses. We're new at this (obviously!) so we're trying to learn everything we can. I researched and prepped myself as much as possible before even thinking about breeding - but nothing can actually prep you for the wonder and worry as they're being born! not the mention the months and weeks before...

All 4 other mares were on the same pasture and one went a week early, all the others were 2-3 weeks late. All of their afterbirths looked good. My mare, the diva - is the only one who had difficulties and continues to have difficulties. That's what I get for adopting a pampered show horse :)

[YankeeLawyer]

Regarding endophyte-free fescue, as the other poster indicated, even if you plant that type, it is often futile because the endophyte will generally travel (cross-pollinate) from nearby fescue that does have endophytes.
Personally, if I see fescue in my field I just assume it has endophytes and proceed accordingly. Fescue is pretty easy to spot once someone points out to you what it looks like.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Fescue is not a preferred grass by most horses, if given a choice they will eat a different grass. But there is the occasional horse that really likes fescue. A friend had a mare that foaled out with many of the indications of fescue toxicosis. She had minimal fescue in her pasture at the time and all the other horses were fine. Well, I watched that mare after that happened and saw that she LIKED to eat the fescue versus the other stuff. That's how she ended up having too much fescue even though the other mares in the same pasture did not.