Rolex thoughts

[flutie1]

Having just lived through the highs (Becky’s, Phillip’s and Stephen’s wonderful rides) and lows (the accidents) of Rolex, I would like to add my thoughts.

Mike E-S’s course was incredibly thoughtful and sophisticated. He deliberately included a handful of vertical faced fences that required riders to balance their horses before jumping. All fences that could be frangibled were. Minute variations in terrain before and after fences, placement, and uses of “devices” like follies were deliberately designed to slow horses down. It was not overly technical in nature, but asked many sophisticated questions while allowing horses/riders to establish and maintain a consistent forward rhythm. There were 13 double clears and several clears with minor time faults.

Folks, the bottom line is NO MATTER HOW SKILLED A DESIGNER IS, HE CAN NOT PROTECT A HORSE OR RIDER FROM GROSS PILOT ERROR. PERIOD. I feel as sad for Frodo and Lainey as anyone, but the reality is, Lainey blasted into that fence at top speed and never made any effort to set the horse up. Frodo never had a chance.

It is tragic, but the real tragedy is – what will it take to wake riders up to their responsibility to protect themselves, their horses, and the sport? We can point fingers forever at various factions and natter on about collapsible jumps, and yes, everyone – designers, officials, organizers, trainers, owners – must shoulder some responsibility for the mess we are in – but there is only one person on that horse.

Flutie

[LisaB]

Yup, I just stated in the Denny thread that here's the other aspect of our sport that needs to be addressed.
Mike is THE top course designer in the world, no question.
This event was blatantly obvious that our horse and rider qualifications need to be changed.
So, the question I posed is minus KOC and Phillip, and the like, what made 'the other' riders successful and unsuccessful? What were their previous experiences? What were their scores? How is their x-c on previous occasions?
How to we get our up and comers ready for a ****? Riding hell bent for leather is not the way to go but yet, showjumping and carefully analyzing x-c is not it either.
I also asked what NASCAR was like in this regard. They have the formula down it seems and I think we should learn from them.

[denny]

Yep, some were too much cowboy, not enough skill. I wasn`t going to be the one to say it, but now it`s been said, I agree. That was all the talk back at the barn among the coaches.

[annikak]

Couple of added thoughts:

AM horses had a good go. Did the message come back that this was a "lighter" course then before and riders changed the ride?? Since the footing was spot on, and the weather was not an issue....?

There has been more talk about horses needing to "figure it out". Well, what about riders developing that same sort of "fifth leg"? the ability to change, almost without conscious thought, what they are doing in a way that does not get their horse in trouble? I think we often think "Glooblegook" when we get to a tough spot on a course, a 1/2 stride or something else that makes us gasp, but I bet Stephen and Phillip, Karen and others don't think that, they just soften or do something that makes is possible for the horse to save itself?

So, riding those ponies in the back yard, down riverbanks, thru fields, chasing cows, long trail rides, fox-hunting, playing games, being silly is perhaps more helpful then we think?? Just MAYBE hacking them out is a good thing- if you fall off enough, you will either 1) get better or 2) quit.

I know it's easier to keep kids in a ring, or in controlled situations, but on the other hand, maybe it's catching up to us. Maybe fear drives us to get better- yes, things can happen, and they do, but maybe just maybe we need to start taking a serious look at the way we instruct our kids...or let them learn themselves!

I think the "in balance" part is missing...and i think that is a feel-thing and a learned friend.

[fooler]

Couple of added thoughts:

AM horses had a good go. Did the message come back that this was a "lighter" course then before and riders changed the ride?? Since the footing was spot on, and the weather was not an issue....?

There has been more talk about horses needing to "figure it out". Well, what about riders developing that same sort of "fifth leg"? the ability to change, almost without conscious thought, what they are doing in a way that does not get their horse in trouble? I think we often think "Glooblegook" when we get to a tough spot on a course, a 1/2 stride or something else that makes us gasp, but I bet Stephen and Phillip, Karen and others don't think that, they just soften or do something that makes is possible for the horse to save itself?

So, riding those ponies in the back yard, down riverbanks, thru fields, chasing cows, long trail rides, fox-hunting, playing games, being silly is perhaps more helpful then we think?? Just MAYBE hacking them out is a good thing- if you fall off enough, you will either 1) get better or 2) quit.

I know it's easier to keep kids in a ring, or in controlled situations, but on the other hand, maybe it's catching up to us. Maybe fear drives us to get better- yes, things can happen, and they do, but maybe just maybe we need to start taking a serious look at the way we instruct our kids...or let them learn themselves!

Agreed. There is a reason we learn to ride outside, across country no matter the discipline. I cring when hearing folks say , young and old, they seldom do flat work outside of a ring, seldom do a trail ride, much less just get on and take a ride. Some my best 'aha' moments have been on a trail ride when the horse is being silly and I 'figure out' (remember & put to use things taught in lessons) how to calm him/her down. We are all under so much instruction, that we have stopped learning to think for ourselves and to let our horses think/learn for themselves.

[magnolia73]

Out of curiosity- please, name no names, what percentage of those riders and horses, based on past performances, should not have entered Rolex? What are the signs that a pair is not ready?

If the "coaches" were talking back it the barns, did they approach specific riders and say "hey- you are lucky you made it, you need to practice before you try this level again". Did coaches see unprepared people on the go list and ask them not to try? Did coaches see a shaky school or prep event and tell riders "maybe not this year".

[LISailing]

I recently viewed youtube video post of Lainey's fall (shame on me), because I was on the camera end of a friend's rotational fall and was interested to compare the approach of the two falls. from the video perspective, it did not appear that Lainey threw caution to the wind on that jump. What I saw was a rather balanced approach were the horse was much too close to the base. His point of shoulder never reached the top of the fence, basically take-off was non-existent from the filmer's perspective). In my friend's fall, the horse's front feet barely left the ground. I have to agree that speed is a main contributor to this type of fall. What I surprised that no-one seems to be addressing in these falls is the footing versus shoeing, and stud choice. I have my own thoughts on this matter and am concerned about the unintended takeoff restraint these choices may have in these accidents.

My best goes out to Lainey and her family, with condolences on the loss of her friend and mount. From what I understand, except for the few falls and horse losses, Rolex could be considered a great success. Thanks to the event organizers for attempting to bring on a brillant safe course.

[denny]

There is an immutable physics of trajectory. If you run a horse flat and fast at a solid obstacle, instead of using some kind of half-halts to get him "under and up", so his jump can be "up and over" rather than "at" the jump, your horse`s chance of a rotational fall skyrockets.
So when the old coaches watch riders just racing at the jumps, half halts be damned, they cringe. They contrast that style to the Dutton style, the O`Connor style, the Severson style, and they know the difference because they are trained to see those things.

[shea'smom]

Two thoughts.
At Atlanta, Darrien Powers got to a big ass ditch and wall completely wrong. He bunny hopped safely and went on his merry way. Andrew knew just what to do, which looked to me like "nothing".
Also, I saw The Quiet Man's fall. The two fences before it were not good. Sorry to say, the rider looked very unsure and brought the horse into the footbridge without enough impulsion. As a contrast, Waylon Roberts rode positively forward through that area.
It has to be our worst nightmare to make a mistake that injures our much loved horse. We can't make it safe enough that people can make a big mistake and not have it get them.
This was a beautifully designed course, rather user friendly in my opinion. I saw the first 20 jump the flower basket with no problem. I don't think it was the fences fault there. Maybe the footbridge question should be toned down, so an error would not end up with the horse in the ditch on the landing side.
I don't know much about Sarah, but Lanie seems to be a very competent rider who made a tragic mistake.
It was a quite a weekend, certainly had alot of wonderful, inspiring moments.

[findeight]

Yep, some were too much cowboy, not enough skill. I wasn`t going to be the one to say it, but now it`s been said, I agree. That was all the talk back at the barn among the coaches.

Hi, Denny, was waiting for you to chime in.

Do you think the organizers are going the way of many the shows and cramming more entries in? Are you going the way of the once vaunted Sunday afternoon GP that used to be the apex and now consists of 10% bona fide GP entrants, 40% close but not quite and 50% that shouldn't be in there? Of course our fence design preserves life and most limbs.

As a non eventer I can't speak to qualifications but wonder if profit is driving both rider/trainers, owners and organizers adding to your other problems- and you do have a huge perceptual problem if not an actual one.

[bosox]

I have re-worded my post a 100 times in my head. I thought that it deserved a thread of its own but have decided to post here since some of the comments are in line w/the ones I am about to make. Maybe those that read this post will realize the tone is one of great sadness and not of finger pointing. That this post is meant for us to brainstorm, think, act and work together. That many of the things I have said here are things that my fellow eventers have said to me but aren’t brave enough to post on their own. We need changes-and we need them now. I started this post in my head right after the first horse fall. I sat on this for a few days trying to get all my thoughts in order. I hope that they come across clearly for you.

The outcry after the last round of accidents was great. Then the attention shifted and we became quiet b/c it seemed as if the Leadership was acting. However, I felt that while some of the ideas the leadership put forth were good--it seemed as if the ULRs who made the changes focused on the LLs vs the ULs. Again, these elite riders didn't see that a lot of the problems were not at the low levels. About 2 weeks before Rolex---I was sadden by the lack of posts on Chron of My Horse and on this BB about what we could do to get things moving. We "as a collective group" felt that the little steps the USEA made were moving in the right direction. Usually--I have control issues. When I feel that I can do the job, I step right up to the plate and dive right in. This area, I am a LL rider and can do a lot of admin tasks b/c I didn't know what else I could do. Without an ULR leading the charge, I did feel that I had no choice but to play the wait and see game. Now, we have more blood on our hands from the innocent, beautiful equines that had no say in the sport they played in.

Someone mentioned that we need to teach the lower levels the ideas of galloping and how to really ride. My question was "then who is going to do it?" If I feel like I have gotten my kids the best training out there---and then find out that it was wrong---b/c the trainers have been doing it wrong---then WHO can teach us to do it right?

I had hoped to get my daughter and her new mount down to see Denny this year but by the time we got our new mount and the cost of trailering, I needed to combine trips w/another function. Well--my timetable didn't match Denny's schedule as he goes up north May 1. I was so impressed by Denny's bio, willingness to be on the BBs w/LL riders and impart wisdom---and then offer Military discounts as well---I was so wanting to get my kid in w/him for several lessons. When the riders give cute statements such as "Kick On"---don't you think that kids hear that? Don't you think LL riders thing that is how you get around XC. I have to tell you that my trainer has asked me to bring better quality gaits to the fence but it hasn't been by KICKING ON. (NO slame against one person.) I get my kids out to MANY events. Foxhunting, polox, point to points, PC, hunter shows....there is only so much to that one can do....WHERE are the gaps? For me---the last gap is closing the ULRs and having them come back down into the LLs for a time and giving back. Again, this is what I do to prepare. Maybe enough people aren't doing more outside the ring. I know when I moved to Maryland 5 years ago---we have lost 2 great equestrian facilities to development and we lost Sundays to Hunting (w/guns) people were willing to sit back and not cry out. I know how hard it is for us to get away b/c we have our horses at home. I can understand that it must be hard for those in the ULs to get away as well. However, I also believe that if we make "qualifying" requirements for the ULs that something should be in there about HOW they gave back to the LLs. It can't all be about "you". PC tries to make sure that the kids give back to each other....and of course---DCs just sign off that they are active in teaching and are ok to rate up. However, I like to sleep at night and think that one should not sign off on something that has not been done. I might be unpopular but I am always true. There needs to be a check system in place to make sure that they don't just say they gave back.

SO then that leaves me a few options in this area. I am in charge of setting up clinics for our Horse Board. The prices some of the smaller BNT/BNRs gave me were UNBELIEVEABLE. BTW---some of this VERY big names actually grew up in PC and had years of people giving back to them and investing in them but they didn't even offer a discount. I actually was quite disgusted by it. (They are w/in the area---so travel expenses were not too high) So did these riders forget that once they were LL riders that had to scrape funds together to get to events/training/clinics, etc?

It makes me quite sad that all of the "HOPEFULS" for the Olympics are Pros. I remember growing up and the Olympics were ammies that would show their stuff at the Olympics and then come home to enter the Pro ranks. Now--we send people who have been there time and time again--who made millions by their showings at the Olympics--and they can't find time to take in students that aren't in the upper crust. It makes me sad....no, actually disgusted. These riders who earn their money by selling their stuff to LL riders need to realize that they'd be better off teaching future riders how to ride correctly and get this sport back on track.

Of course in the Hunter/Dressage world the rides can be subjective to the judge that you have--not always the fairest way to pick the best. Jumpers and XC--you go clear/clean/good time---you don't pick up faults. How can you say that we change the track we are on now for Eventing w/o opening up the issues of---Elite Riders picking Elite riders. Will these elite folks just pick those w/the best wallets, give them training and then offer them spots in the Upper Ranks? Seems like it. Seems like some of those that should have spots on the list have been overlooked....AND GROSS MISTAKES of years last are forgotten and the same people who FLAMED a rider for their terrible judgment are all for them going and showing in the Olympics and representing the US. I guess I am less forgiving. I also suppose I could book this rider for a clinic--as I know they are giving them again. However, I am amazed that people are taking and paying for them.

I realize that we need the ULRs to guide the LLRs but I also thing we need some of the LLRs to help bring balance to the issues that are being presented. NOT ALL but some of the ULRs I find have lost “their way” and don’t remember what it was like to be a LLR. I believe that while the LLR may not be able to speak to the technicality of the courses/rides that they would be able to let ULRs know how things translate down to the masses. I just hope that we don’t get LLRs that are star-struck. So many people are easily in awe of someone b/c they have had their name splashed across the magazines or won big events. I don’t know if they hope that they will end up in their good graces and getting some of the crumbs or if it is just a certain personality type.

[snoopy]

There is an immutable physics of trajectory. If you run a horse flat and fast at a solid obstacle, instead of using some kind of half-halts to get him "under and up", so his jump can be "up and over" rather than "at" the jump, your horse`s chance of a rotational fall skyrockets.
So when the old coaches watch riders just racing at the jumps, half halts be damned, they cringe. They contrast that style to the Dutton style, the O`Connor style, the Severson style, and they know the difference because they are trained to see those things.



:)!!!!

[annikak]

First, your sig line is perfect.

I do not think that the ULR's need to coach the LLR's at ALL. It's a different job. That is why the ICP has all those levels- as really, the younger/newer rider needs totally different things then the rider that is thinking about prelim/I. Or, even Training.

So, don't look past what you may have in your own area. There are people out there who teach really well- and have the desire and energy to help riders learn to be horsemen/woman. They may not have web sites, or big names, but they can get the person riding safely and soundly. Watch their students and their parents. Are they happy? Smiling? Safe?

And, as a parent, I think we need to let our kids ride. Let them play. Let them have fun. Let them fall off bareback. It's okay. Those not-so-fancy horses can be worth their weight in gold. Where are those camp programs where they spend the entire summer in the barn and field with their horses?

Horsemanship is about a lot of things- not just a clean barn. Sometimes those lower level instructors have a great ability to impart some wisdom onto the riders about how a horse thinks- what does it mean when their ears go this a way? I don't know- but this year I saw a lot of young riders that seemed to be lacking some important ingredients. Yes, they qualified, yes, they met all the check-marks. But something seemed lacking.

Again, I do not think we have the answer just yet. Something is missing. What IS it? Flutie is right- the course was spectacular. All the ingredients were great. It was designed to be a great day in every aspect.

[Speedy]

I wish when folks on the board debate endlessly the various ways in which the "sport can be made safer" that there would be more focus, as there has been on this thread, on riding skills. The sport will never be a safe sport. We might make it safer in a number of different ways, with frangible pins and tighter qualification requirements, but at the end of the day, riders need to assess their skills honestly and make well informed, reasonable judgments about their readiness to ride a particular course.

I mention this b/c I rode at an event this weekend and I was completely horrified by the lack of skill and frankly dangerous rides that I saw in STADIUM - I watched approximately 28 rides that were, literally, nail-biters. Even my non-horsey husband thought that it was simply ridiculous for any of those riders to continue on to xc. But, of course, they did go on to do xc - and there were very, very few clean xc rounds. The worst moment came when non-horsey husband heard a mother say to her child just after her round (during which her horse charged at every fence and she practically fell off), "well, now that you've had a clean round at novice, you must be ready for training!" Non-horsey husband practically had a heart attack on the child's behalf. I just don't think that most people out there have a good sense of what constitutes a good ride and a bad ride. I don't know what the answer to this problem is - other than good coaching (thank god for the ICP program, which will, hopefully, really take off) and qualification requirements at the lowest levels - but it is obvious to me, every time that I go to an event, that people need to improve their riding skills and develop a better sense of self-preservation.

[3dazey]

The writing is on the wall. There will have to be legislation passed to protect riders from themselves.

The current qualifying conditions are not stringent enough. My personal standards are much higher than the ones in place. If my horse is not going consistently clean over the xc of his current level, I'm sure in the hell not moving up, be it to training, preliminary, or whatever. If he's not carrying me to the fences and staying in front of my leg consistently where we are now, why in God's name would I want to try something harder? Where has common sense gone?

I like the idea of the Rolex elite **** with VERY stringent qualifying requirements, and a *** for the others. Just might not be too helpful for Jersey Fresh organizers so would have to be fair about that.

[SandyUHC]

Thanks, flutie, that really helped me sort out the heartbreak. Driving back from helping pack up Hidden Hollow yesterday with the accidents on my mind made me wonder about this sport I've put so much energy into. I'm so glad I stopped here to get your take on it.

[flutie1]

One can not legislate for stupidity. The best a governing body can do is take steps to protect riders from themselves - and in so doing, protect our most valuable commodity, our horses.

Flutie

[FrittSkritt]

Not sure if this is relevant -- perhaps it belongs on Denny's 4* thread -- but how many horse falls/serious injuries were at the '06 WEG? That, as I recall, was an extremely difficult course, much more so than Rolex, and it was also ridden by the creme de la creme of eventers.

[Miriam]

Thank you flutie for having the integrity to say what I've been feeling. I saw two of the falls including Laine's, and it was apparent to even me (not an ULR) that enormous errors of judgement and bad riding were to blame LONG before the fence where either accident happpened.

If anything, these falls should inspire us to learn to ride to the best of our abilities and be honest in our self-critiques so that when an accident happens, we know we have done our homework and it was truly an accident.

In stadium, I saw riders who were completely incapable of HELPING their horses in any way. I expect to see that at the novice level- heck, sometimes I ride like that. Be honest with yourself, find yourself an honest coach/trainer, and ride well. That's the secret to making eventing safer.

[rabicon]

I've been out of town and trying to catch up with the events. RIP Frodo and prayers for you Lainey. What happened to Quiet Man? I missed that info and I just saw on the Rolex site that prayers were out for his owners??? Please someone let me know. Thanks

[Glimmerglass]

Yep, some were too much cowboy, not enough skill. I wasn`t going to be the one to say it, but now it`s been said, I agree. That was all the talk back at the barn among the coaches.

As someone who was there live the whole weekend I have to concur. I'm not trying to blame the rider but with all due resepct that fence wasn't terribly challenging. If the sport has to 'dumb down' a fence like that then we're all in significant trouble. I've taken a single fence just as challenging as that which obviously isn't the same as riding Rolex but hopefully the point is understood. The problem wasn't in its design, approach, sequence after the prior, etc.

I'll also add, as I was one of the people helped stop Lion Display after Dornin fell off the first time on XC, she should not have remounted. I was shocked when she did, galloped up the up still a bit dazed but probably running on adrenaline and took the hammock fence, but didn't quit there. By all accounts (as I didn't see her next fall) the combination was not looking good after the hammock and it just looked worse going down the hill to the next fence.

For years I've been going to Rolex and the old salts have both known when to call it day (as Polly did on Saturday) and also when aggressive doesn't mean crazy. I've seen Bruce Davidson Sr and Ralph Hill tackle the course with vigor but didn't say "wow they're out of control".

[Glimmerglass note - I incorrectly identified Sarah Hansel as having fallen twice in my OP; it was Dornin Anne North aboard Lion Display. My regrets for the confusion]

[Reds-n-Greys]

I've been out of town and trying to catch up with the events. RIP Frodo and prayers for you Lainey. What happened to Quiet Man? I missed that info and I just saw on the Rolex site that prayers were out for his owners??? Please someone let me know. Thanks

There's a thread that explains.....

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=145020

[Shrapnel]

Having just lived through the highs (Becky’s, Phillip’s and Stephen’s wonderful rides) and lows (the accidents) of Rolex, I would like to add my thoughts.

Mike E-S’s course was incredibly thoughtful and sophisticated. He deliberately included a handful of vertical faced fences that required riders to balance their horses before jumping. All fences that could be frangibled were. Minute variations in terrain before and after fences, placement, and uses of “devices” like follies were deliberately designed to slow horses down. It was not overly technical in nature, but asked many sophisticated questions while allowing horses/riders to establish and maintain a consistent forward rhythm. There were 13 double clears and several clears with minor time faults.

Folks, the bottom line is NO MATTER HOW SKILLED A DESIGNER IS, HE CAN NOT PROTECT A HORSE OR RIDER FROM GROSS PILOT ERROR. PERIOD. I feel as sad for Frodo and Lainey as anyone, but the reality is, Lainey blasted into that fence at top speed and never made any effort to set the horse up. Frodo never had a chance.

It is tragic, but the real tragedy is – what will it take to wake riders up to their responsibility to protect themselves, their horses, and the sport? We can point fingers forever at various factions and natter on about collapsible jumps, and yes, everyone – designers, officials, organizers, trainers, owners – must shoulder some responsibility for the mess we are in – but there is only one person on that horse.

Flutie

Flutie I agree with you 110%!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was getting ready to start a thread with exactly what you said!!

[Reds-n-Greys]

I'll also add, as I was one of the people helped stop The Quiet Man after Sarah fell off the first time on XC, she should not have remounted. I was shocked when she did, galloped up the up still a bit dazed but probably running on adrenaline and took the hammock fence, but didn't quit there. By all accounts (as I didn't see her next fall) the combination was not looking good after the hammock and it just looked worse going down the hill to the next fence.

".

So maybe there's an obvious change that can be made, should the rule be one fall of horse OR rider = MR at this level? OR perhaps the rider be held for a certain amount of time? More than the ol' "who are you, where are you" questions then send them on their way...

just typing out loud.....

[merrygoround]

It's been over 20 years since I watched a horse leaving the starting box, chewing my fingernails. (Yeah Denny, more than once you were there!)

But! I remember clearly that most of those riders, hunted, pony clubbed, and hell for leather trail rode. I also remember that many of them made their own horses, with a lot of help from their trainer friends. I also remember that moving up was something a combo did after many successful outings at each level. I don't know if any one of those factors was more important than the others.

Accidents will still happen, there will always be an element of risk. But riders and their teachers and coaches need to step back and reevaluate things as to whether they are as prepared and as adjustable as they need to be.

Learn to say NO.

[asterix]

Two thoughts based on being there (although thankfully for me I did not see Laine's fall so I cannot offer an opinion on that):
annikak, you asked about the AM rides going so well. Indeed, there were a string of clears, including a number of novice pairs (by this I mean new-ish to the level, not necessarily first timers - I haven't done the math on that). This included Laine on an experienced 4* horse.

I was told by a Rolex veteran before the start of xc that the course was "deceptively soft" -- and this was not meant as a prediction of lots of double clears.

On the Friday course walk with Jimmy Wofford he talked about the flower basket. It was not a simple fly fence, and it was not intended to be. It was off a turn, after a downhill run, intended to set up the coffin. He said there was a "ripple" in the ground before the fence that required a rebalancing on the part of the rider before the fence, and that if you didn't notice this (or failed to execute it), you would have a very rough fence (although, he said, "not catastrophic" :().

I went back on Sunday to look at this more carefully, and indeed there was a little swale one stride before takeoff. It was not big, but plenty big enough to change the horse's balance.

I cannot say whether this was part of the mix on Saturday as I did not see it -- but it was NOT a fence you were supposed to just "go" at.

[Classic Melody]

I went back on Sunday to look at this more carefully, and indeed there was a little swale one stride before takeoff. It was not big, but plenty big enough to change the horse's balance.

I cannot say whether this was part of the mix on Saturday as I did not see it -- but it was NOT a fence you were supposed to just "go" at.

And Laine would have known that, having successfully ridden it in the morning. :no:

Flutie said it all for me so I have nothing more to add.

[cevent]

Having just lived through the highs (Becky’s, Phillip’s and Stephen’s wonderful rides) and lows (the accidents) of Rolex, I would like to add my thoughts.

Mike E-S’s course was incredibly thoughtful and sophisticated. He deliberately included a handful of vertical faced fences that required riders to balance their horses before jumping. All fences that could be frangibled were. Minute variations in terrain before and after fences, placement, and uses of “devices” like follies were deliberately designed to slow horses down. It was not overly technical in nature, but asked many sophisticated questions while allowing horses/riders to establish and maintain a consistent forward rhythm. There were 13 double clears and several clears with minor time faults.

Folks, the bottom line is NO MATTER HOW SKILLED A DESIGNER IS, HE CAN NOT PROTECT A HORSE OR RIDER FROM GROSS PILOT ERROR. PERIOD. I feel as sad for Frodo and Lainey as anyone, but the reality is, Lainey blasted into that fence at top speed and never made any effort to set the horse up. Frodo never had a chance.

It is tragic, but the real tragedy is – what will it take to wake riders up to their responsibility to protect themselves, their horses, and the sport? We can point fingers forever at various factions and natter on about collapsible jumps, and yes, everyone – designers, officials, organizers, trainers, owners – must shoulder some responsibility for the mess we are in – but there is only one person on that horse.

Flutie


I agree with you and was considering posting something similar to what you have said. Like Flutie stated, there were 13 double clears that day including some newer riders to Rolex and there were 25 riders who had no jump faults. (that includes the 13 double clears and the riders who just had time)

I saw Lainey's fall on the live coverage and while it was horrific, I feel she buried him to the fence and he had no chance. I hate to say that and my heart goes out to her for her loss. It's a lot easier to sit here after and pick apart what happened. I didn't see Sarah's fall so I can't really comment on that. However, with what you all have been saying, she wasn't having the greatest ride up to the fall. Should she have retired? Maybe, but we're not Sarah and we don't know how she felt going around. Maybe she thought they would get a better rhythm going, but we just don't know.

I know this goes with some of the other threads, but some have stated they may not attend Rolex again, or are thinking about not eventing anymore. Unfortunately, the possibility of injury and/or death comes with this sport. Not just with eventing, but with riding in general. I will agree that this has been a bad year so far and that some changes need to be made, but to not attend Rolex or to not event anymore seems silly to me since we should all know the risks that come with our beloved sport.

[Rallycairn]

Sadly, though, it appears that in recent years, as many of you are saying, the riders aren't pulling up often enough. Not after falls, not even when the horse they are riding is catastrophically injured. I asked on another thread, then, can we create a culture (and it takes more than passing or having the rules, the rules can already be in place but there has to be a culture of enforcing and abiding by them) where officials can be more likely to step in and stop someone on course?

But OTOH I still think we have to look at the physics of rotational falls. There's no reason not to make the fences safer, especially if we can do it without "dumbing down" the courses.

Making things safer may well require a multi-pronged approach, not one "magic bullet" of addressing fence safety OR horse and rider qualifications OR whatever. I know that's kind of an obvious thing to say, but it's easy to jump on just one bandwagon and think it's the only way to travel.

[MusicityBound]

I know this is not a popular opinion but it is an opinion that needs to be heard.

It is funny that so many people who event claim to be horse and animal lovers but yet they continue to put animals and people in grave danger and in unecessary risks all for the purpose of letting people have a few cheap thrills. I love equestrians sports as much as the next person, but a sport is no longer a sport when people and horses are dying at almost every large event, it is called animal cruelty/abuse. The riders choose to put themselves at risk but the horse gets no choice in the matter. The accidents are not minuscule as David O'Connor suggests eventing had 12 people and countless animals die in the last year alone. This does not even count the number of critical injuries that have been suffered. No other sport has this kind of risk not even car racing. Change needs to happen in the sport of eventing soon.

I strongly contend this was a terrible Rolex. 2 horses dying, 1 rider fighting for her life, other riders injured. I have been to the last 6 Rolex's and it continues to get worse. This is not acceptable and I don't believe this is just eventing. No one came into Rolex thinking they were going to be severely injured or have or horse die. The problem is it is becoming all to regular. Don't forget Le Samurai ridden by Amy Tryon a year ago died after Rolex. Enough is enough!

[MusicityBound]

Dorrin Anne North was the rider who fell twice. I agree she needed to retire after the first fall. I saw her at the Sunken Road and she was not all together. I suggest the rules be changed that after a rider fall you are automatically eliminated.

[SPLAT]

So.... I watched the Rolex webcast - which was sooo cool!!!! thanks for making that possible.

The Frodo fall was seriously horrific!! and I came away from this event saddened and not sure I want to continue eventing. This is now 4 horses and two riders in two shows already this year. 2 horses and 1 rider out of 40: There are some seriously scary percentages. the focus on the 13 clear rides is just out of line. To say that if someone rides badly or isnt' up to the level they or their horse will die is just not acceptable.

I do not believe this is not a LL training problem - we are supposed to make mistakes and occasionally be scary - thats why the jumps are easier. That's called learning while not killing yourself or your horse. Most of us are pretty happy there and train with coaches etc. I do not believe BN issues are causing deaths at Rolex and Red Hills.

Horses and people are always going to make mistakes: These mistakes should not equal death. This is not a training issue - this is a safety issue. In car racing, they look for what can go horrifically wrong and try to protect lives - That's how eventing needs to think. Yes fitness and training are huge and very important, but in the show jumping even Philip Dutton almost came off his horse.
We have to look at safety for the unpreventable mistakes, not pontificate about badly ridden jumps and training issues. I saw an equal of badly jumps where everyone survived. It would be nice to watch the upper leves and not worry about who is going to live.

[Hilary]

I have to say that I am actually relieved to hear this news. I did not see Lainey's fall until just now (on Youtube), but did notice on the Rolex On-Demand that Sarah's horse did not look like the others out there. He went out of the box looking tired or off his game somehow. I didn't realize she'd already had a fall.

While it is tragic, it does say that these were rider errors more than horse or fence issues.

Going too fast and leaving out strides is something I'm sure we've all done. I had the experience of my coach completely taking a strip off me for doing so. I"m sure it was hard for her, but she did it. She did it constructively and helped me fix it. Which included standing out on course with me for an hour critiquing every rider. Once my eye got tuned in, it was appalling how few people rode the fence correctly.

I don't know who Lainey's coach is, if this was a habit for her, or this was the one time she decided to stop paying attention, but somehow it was not second nature for her to ride that fence correctly. And it cost her dearly.

I did see Heidi's fall, and someone else's. Both times I thought, hey, I'm glad they were able to continue and we don't have a rule that you are E'd if you come off. Because both appeared to be OK. But hearing that Sarah had a fall and continued makes me rethink that. How do we know who had the judgement to get back on after falling off. We all want to get back on. We've been drilled in "get back on the horse" since we first fell off our ponies.


Sometimes, though, you shouldn't.

[roki143]

I agree that The Quiet Man looked off his game a bit, but she wasn't the one that had a fall beforehand was she? I thought only Dorin had 2 falls...

[Mayaty02]

Horses and people are always going to make mistakes: These mistakes should not equal death. This is not a training issue - this is a safety issue. In car racing, they look for what can go horrifically wrong and try to protect lives - That's how eventing needs to think. Yes fitness and training are huge and very important, but in the show jumping even Philip Dutton almost came off his horse.
We have to look at safety for the unpreventable mistakes, not pontificate about badly ridden jumps and training issues. I saw an equal of badly jumps where everyone survived. It would be nice to watch the upper leves and not worry about who is going to live.


Kudos, this hit the nail on the head for me. I watched the video and yeah she got too deep....but how many of us have missed a distance at some point in our careers? The issue here should and must be, how do we make it safer so that if a mistake is made, it doesn't turn out to be tragic. Making the jumps breakaway is a huge one..ok so I read it costs $70 per pin. You know what? You gotta pay it. With all the money thrown around in all equestrian sports, you can't tell me it's "too expensive" if it'll save equine and human lives.

[JAGold]

So, riding those ponies in the back yard, down riverbanks, thru fields, chasing cows, long trail rides, fox-hunting, playing games, being silly is perhaps more helpful then we think?? Just MAYBE hacking them out is a good thing- if you fall off enough, you will either 1) get better or 2) quit.

I know it's easier to keep kids in a ring, or in controlled situations, but on the other hand, maybe it's catching up to us. Maybe fear drives us to get better- yes, things can happen, and they do, but maybe just maybe we need to start taking a serious look at the way we instruct our kids...or let them learn themselves!

As you know, I agree 100% with you on this!

[shea'smom]

Sarah was NOT the one who had an earlier fall.

[annikak]

So, Sarah had already had one fall? I thought that D North had a fall at the coffin, and then had her 2nd fall at the footbridge. But, where did Sarah fall first??

[McVillesMom]

I recently viewed youtube video post of Lainey's fall (shame on me), because I was on the camera end of a friend's rotational fall and was interested to compare the approach of the two falls. from the video perspective, it did not appear that Lainey threw caution to the wind on that jump. What I saw was a rather balanced approach were the horse was much too close to the base. His point of shoulder never reached the top of the fence, basically take-off was non-existent from the filmer's perspective). In my friend's fall, the horse's front feet barely left the ground. I have to agree that speed is a main contributor to this type of fall. What I surprised that no-one seems to be addressing in these falls is the footing versus shoeing, and stud choice. I have my own thoughts on this matter and am concerned about the unintended takeoff restraint these choices may have in these accidents.

Before I say this, let me preface it by saying that I was not at the fence and did not witness the fall in person. Therefore the only thing I have to base my opinion on was the YouTube video, which was not at an ideal angle to see the approach. Regardless, my interpretation was quite different from yours. I saw a horse that was flying down the hill on his forehand, chipped in to a fence with a very vertical face, and couldn't get his legs out of the way. Maybe he wasn't listening. Maybe he was too fresh. Maybe if he'd been running long format, he would have been paying more attention or could have reacted more quickly. We don't know.

The best riders and horses in the world make mistakes. We need to figure out how we can allow them to make those mistakes and not pay with their lives.

[TexasAggieEventer]

As someone who was there live the whole weekend I have to concur. I'm not trying to blame the rider but with all due resepct that fence wasn't terribly challenging. If the sport has to 'dumb down' a fence like that then we're all in significant trouble. I've taken a single fence just as challenging as that which obviously isn't the same as riding Rolex but hopefully the point is understood. The problem wasn't in its design, approach, sequence after the prior, etc.

I'll also add, as I was one of the people helped stop The Quiet Man after Sarah fell off the first time on XC, she should not have remounted. I was shocked when she did, galloped up the up still a bit dazed but probably running on adrenaline and took the hammock fence, but didn't quit there. By all accounts (as I didn't see her next fall) the combination was not looking good after the hammock and it just looked worse going down the hill to the next fence.

For years I've been going to Rolex and the old salts have both known when to call it day (as Polly did on Saturday) and also when aggressive doesn't mean crazy. I've seen Bruce Davidson Sr and Ralph Hill tackle the course with vigor but didn't say "wow they're out of control".



Well said and I agree. I've only been eventing for a little over 2 years (switched over from H/J) and it was clear to me that some of the rides weren't going well and were quite scary at times. I couldn't understand why some of the riders just didn't call it a day and for me it was frustrating to watch them push their horses and themselves beyond what they are really ready for.

When it was done well, it was beautiful and effortless!

There is always ANOTHER day and ANOTHER competition.

The goal for every rider should be that at the end of the day that you and your horse go home and are safe and sound - physically and mentally.

[flutie1]

So maybe there's an obvious change that can be made, should the rule be one fall of horse OR rider = MR at this level? OR perhaps the rider be held for a certain amount of time? More than the ol' "who are you, where are you" questions then send them on their way...

just typing out loud.....

This is one of the rule changes before the Eventing Committee that were discussed at the April 23 meeting and will be voted on in the May conference call.

[FrittSkritt]

In the aviation world, they frequently break down an accident into what's called an error chain: basically a chain of events that lead up to the incident. Error chain events do not have to occur immediately after each other and they may or may not have a cause-and-effect relationship. They can involve several things: weather, mechanical problems, training, reaction, personal/psychological issues, etc. The key to breaking that error chain is awareness: for example, knowing you were flying into rough weather and adding extra fuel in case of a diversion to another airport. Sounds simple, but a number of accidents have happened just simply by running out of fuel because they were stuck in a holding pattern, unable to go to another airport because it was too far and they were low on fuel.

Granted, flying a plane and riding a horse are two different situations, but from what I could see, there were several factors involved:

Sarah could have chosen to retire after her first fall, or even after the next sticky fence(s). She chose to continue on, but the game had changed – both she and her horse were probably lacking a little confidence, and based on that combined with tiredness and his previous stickiness at the fences, were elements in that error chain.

If Sarah had chosen to retire after her first fall, she wouldn’t have fallen at the footbridge. If her horse had been more experienced and fitter, he may have had a bolder jump and cleared it.

If she were more aware of her situation – her horse was not jumping well, they were both probably tired, she had fallen once already – then maybe she would have made that choice that would have broken the chain of events.

Heidi's fall could be construed in the same way. She was trying to make the time, she knew she had a shot of getting in the top three, and was really pushing it around the course. When she did the first duck combo in 3, it threw her line off. Heidi could have chosen to circle and taken the refusal, but perhaps that pressure of knowing she couldn't afford any penalties made her think she could ask him to really stretch and get over the last duck from that awkward spot. As a result, she flew off, broke her arm, and ended up having to withdraw. If she took the refusal, she'd at least have ended everything on a semi-good note, with a sound horse and rider [probably] still in the running for Beijing. Now it's going to be significantly tougher for her to make the team.

I think educating riders to take a good look at the risk factors involved and when it is acceptable to continue on and when not to.

[JAM]

I don't disagree with anybody regarding rider responsibility and rider error. What concerns me at least as much, however, is that it SEEMS that the consequences to horse and rider of rider (or horse error) are more severe -- horse and rider are too often required to pay the ultimate price for these mistakes. Something about the sport in its current form is too unforgiving compared to the old days -- I don't know whether it's the technicality of the vast majority of the courses, the fact that horses and riders are running more frequently without any break from week to week or over the course of a year, rider fitness, horse fitness, rider education and experience, short vs. long format, etc., or some combination of all the above. If these tragedies were happening much less frequently or ONLY to less experienced or skilled riders, I'd be less concerned.

So, while I agree with everyone else about the riders ultimately having to accept responsibility for their mistakes, I worry that we're slipping back into the paradigm of saying that we don't have a problem that a little more rider education and moving up requirements won't solve. And that, to me, is just burying our heads in the sand. I have no problem with tightening the move-up criteria and doing something about education, but I feel strongly that we're not going to break out of the current downward spiral unless we focus on why the bad riding and bad luck are causing so many horse and rider DEATHS and grave injury.

[JAGold]

Sarah could have chosen to retire after her first fall, or even after the next sticky fence(s). She chose to continue on, but the game had changed – both she and her horse were probably lacking a little confidence, and based on that combined with tiredness and his previous stickiness at the fences, were elements in that error chain.

If Sarah had chosen to retire after her first fall, she wouldn’t have fallen at the footbridge. If her horse had been more experienced and fitter, he may have had a bolder jump and cleared it.

If she were more aware of her situation – her horse was not jumping well, they were both probably tired, she had fallen once already – then maybe she would have made that choice that would have broken the chain of events.

This approach to analyzing accidents is useful and interesting. However, I'm fairly sure that Sarah did NOT fall twice. Dornin North had two falls, and was eliminated after the second fall which did, like Sarah's fall, occur at The Footbridge. Neither horse nor rider were seriously injured.

Can someone confirm whether or not that account is correct? If it is -- if Sarah did NOT have an earlier fall on course -- then can we please not cast judgements about what caused her accident based on incorrect assumptions? She's lost her horse and her partner. There's obviously a lot of soul-searching to do, but it would be frustrating to receive unsolicited input based on incorrect facts...

And if Sarah did indeed have an earlier fall, then my apologies and I stand corrected. But I'd rather feel foolish than see someone who has just lost her horse face criticism for a mistake she didn't make.

[FrittSkritt]

True, JAGold. I actually don't remember seeing her (supposed first) fall on the feed. He did seem quite sticky and tired, though... they almost got into quite a bit of trouble in the beginning of the course, I can't remember which combo it was but she (wisely) took an option as he just lost all forward momentum going into it.

[RAyers]

Flutie, I absolutely agree. In this case the rider made a mistake. That is where fence materials and design can come into play. We can make a fence that is "forgiving."

Reed

[In The Gate]

All riders and horses are bound to make mistakes at some point, even at the upper levels. Somehow, eventing as a sport needs to figure out a way that riders and horse can make mistakes without killing the horse and rider.

In jumpers, the "slightly too deep to the base" distance generally results in the horse knocking the front rail of the fence -- that's all. It counts as a penalty; that ride won't win classes at any level. The same mistake in upper level eventing can, and has, resulted in fatal accidents. There needs to be a way to reward the riders who ride correctly without killing those who don't.

In hunter/jumpers we don't HAVE screens, and it is RARE to see life threatening injuries to horse or rider even at the highest levels. When the upper level H/J riders make mistakes they walk away without ribbons or money that day, but very much alive. Eventing needs to figure out how to get that result, and quickly.

[flutie1]

Flutie, I absolutely agree. In this case the rider made a mistake. That is where fence materials and design can come into play. We can make a fence that is "forgiving."

Reed

Just to play devil's advocate here.... There is a theory that we have made fences so "forgiving" and user friendly that riders are losing respect for them and are being lulled into a false sense of security and as a result, are taking big and often fatal chances. Lucinda Green has said this often. Lainey obviously had no respect for the fence and thought she could just fly it. She had gotten away with this as recently as the two preceding fences where Frodo managed to get his legs out of the way. Her luck ran out at fence 5. At least two of the first five fences had imposing vertical faces, I suspect designed deliberately in hopes of getting the riders' respect and attention. Have riders stopped schooling the big ugly verticals and therefore have they lost the skill?

[RAyers]

Just to play devil's advocate here.... There is a theory that we have made fences so "forgiving" and user friendly that riders are losing respect for them and are being lulled into a false sense of security and as a result, are taking big and often fatal chances. Lucinda Green has said this often. Lainey obviously had no respect for the fence and thought she could just fly it. She had gotten away with this as recently as the two preceding fences where Frodo managed to get his legs out of the way. Her luck ran out at fence 5. At least two of the first five fences had imposing vertical faces, I suspect designed deliberately in hopes of getting the riders' respect and attention. Have riders stopped schooling the big ugly verticals and therefore have they lost the skill?


It is a valid point that with which I agree! However, what if we could make a table that collapses upon a specific impact? A horse could still bank off the top but if the face is impacted, the table would come down? Gnep and I already have a design and Gnep is building a prototype. You can still have the same facades and everything else.

I'm saying we can make the same fences with safety aspects. Yes, they may be more expensive at first but what if it save on vet bills, bad publicity lives? Is it worth it then?

This is the point I have made in the past and that is, it is an engineer's job to account for other people's mistakes before they make them. True we can't account for everything but we try. Hence why it may be good to get engineers involved with fence building and design.

Take the ducks (please!) or the mouse, what about having shear pins in the heads so that they break away under impact, like the new safety flags? I really think we can make fences safer by integrating new "technologies," especially at upper levels.

Reed

[c_expresso]

Disclaimer: Lainey is an incredibly nice person, Frodo was a great horse, and Lainey's a great rider.

However...

My friend was at Rolex, and saw Laine as she fell. She was there with a friend of hers who is an Advanced level rider. At the fence right before Laine fell, the UL rider with my friend said, "She is an accident waiting to happen, she needs to balance that horse." And sure enough...

After hearing about Quiet Man being PTS I looked up his record out of curiosity. He has done two CCI*** events previous to Rolex. Last year at Jersey he had 20 XC jump faults. Last fall at Fair Hill, he had 60 XC jump penalties. And then he went to Rolex. Now I really do not know much about Sarah Hansel, or this pair in general, but that record does not sit right with me. Again, I do not know the pair and am not going to judge, but it is something to be looked into. Maybe there should be a rule that says a horse must complete a CCI*** with NO xc jump faults before doing a 4*? I also think Mikey was Sarah's first/main 'big time' UL mount.

[samdolly]

I have to agree with making it harder to qualify for the upper events. I have been watching eventing for over 20 years back to when Gladstone had the Essex Horse Trials and I can not remember when more horses and riders have gotten hurt or killed. I know at the Fork and Southern Pines, riders were told to slow down. I have seen some scary approaches to jumps and am amazed more how there have't been more accidents/deaths. I overheard YR advisors talk about some BN & up about not balancing and going hell bent for leather to make the time. Riders are pushing their horses to finish or to make the time. I had a friend who has a very talented mare that competed at the Fork and withdrew the horse after a 2nd refusal because something was not right with her. Kudos to her! You can tell by her riding that she slows down to balance and set up for each fence and her horse can be quite opinionated!

There are riders who care about their horses and their safety takes top priority. I have not watched the coverage yet so I make make no judgements about the riders and the falls. My heart just goes out to them. :cry: I am sure that if they had to do it all over again they would approach this competition differently.

The eventing world needs to seriously take a look at a tough qualification system to progress through the levels. Not everyone should be riding at certain levels. Perhaps making the time longer or penalizing for finishing to under the time? or make more emphasis on the dressage or show jumping?

[denny]

I don`t care if the riders are nice, or if they have dreams, or if they love their horses. Every kid has dreams that don`t come true.
Are they good enough, that`s the one question. Period.

[Wanderluster]

Could the answer be as simple as having riders qualify at 2 sanctioned USEF horse shows in the current competion year with two double clear 1.40/1.50 jumper rounds with the horse that they compete **** ?

[BigRuss1996]

I agree 100% on all points....


Having just lived through the highs (Becky’s, Phillip’s and Stephen’s wonderful rides) and lows (the accidents) of Rolex, I would like to add my thoughts.

Mike E-S’s course was incredibly thoughtful and sophisticated. He deliberately included a handful of vertical faced fences that required riders to balance their horses before jumping. All fences that could be frangibled were. Minute variations in terrain before and after fences, placement, and uses of “devices” like follies were deliberately designed to slow horses down. It was not overly technical in nature, but asked many sophisticated questions while allowing horses/riders to establish and maintain a consistent forward rhythm. There were 13 double clears and several clears with minor time faults.

Folks, the bottom line is NO MATTER HOW SKILLED A DESIGNER IS, HE CAN NOT PROTECT A HORSE OR RIDER FROM GROSS PILOT ERROR. PERIOD. I feel as sad for Frodo and Lainey as anyone, but the reality is, Lainey blasted into that fence at top speed and never made any effort to set the horse up. Frodo never had a chance.

It is tragic, but the real tragedy is – what will it take to wake riders up to their responsibility to protect themselves, their horses, and the sport? We can point fingers forever at various factions and natter on about collapsible jumps, and yes, everyone – designers, officials, organizers, trainers, owners – must shoulder some responsibility for the mess we are in – but there is only one person on that horse.

Flutie

[allpurpose]

True, JAGold. I actually don't remember seeing her (supposed first) fall on the feed. He did seem quite sticky and tired, though... they almost got into quite a bit of trouble in the beginning of the course, I can't remember which combo it was but she (wisely) took an option as he just lost all forward momentum going into it.

I really felt that she had no horse at AND after fence #5, as he was obviously laboring over the jumps and her stick hand was busy at each fence. He really looked tired. So sad, but it didn't surprise me when they crashed at the footbridge. I'm so sorry it happened. :no:

[sofiethewonderhorse]

thank you for so many of you for your candor regarding these two catastrophies.

I feel very strongly that there should be a minimum age/experience requirement, even it means running at the *** level for several years.

Further, this young lady had another catastrophic event two years ago (or was it 3? at her 1st Rolex) when her horse 'bounced' the bridge (same bridge that Quiet Man got hung up in).

Unfortunately, I did watch Lainie's error in judgement (both years for some reason).

Just because you qualify to move up doesn't mean you are ready.

I'm on the fence about 1 fall and elimination idea. I've watched the best riders in the world become unseated (Kim S. 2 years ago, Phillip D unseated 2 or 3 times in one day). Should they have been eliminated?

I'm sorry for the riders, sorry for the families, but at some point in time, Rider Responsibility, to protect your horse at all cost, must take priority.

Is the jump from the *** to the **** as dramatic as the jump from TR to Prelim? (exponential * 10?)

[shea'smom]

Sarah did not fall earlier.

[horsepix76]

So, riding those ponies in the back yard, down riverbanks, thru fields, chasing cows, long trail rides, fox-hunting, playing games, being silly is perhaps more helpful then we think?? Just MAYBE hacking them out is a good thing- if you fall off enough, you will either 1) get better or 2) quit.


And I just can't help but think that some of the above has been lost on ULRs since the formation of the short course. The required fitness level of both horse AND rider for the short course is no where NEAR what it was for the long course. Not to mention the hours in the saddle required by horse and rider to attain said fitness level -- hours that were spent getting to know the horse, his quirks, how to half halt him more effectively when galloping down a hill, etc. I'm not saying that the horse's are't fit, but athe overall endurance phase has been cut down to a 1/3 (or less) of what it used to be. You can't tell me that THAT hasn't had an effect on the rider's skills. In other words, I really feel like the increasing number of fatalities and serious accidents has GOT to be related to the introduction of the short course. I say the USEA brings back the long course. And if the Olympic Committee can't handle building the roads & track and steeplechase for the long course at an Olympic games, then Eventing doesn't need to be an Olympic sport anymore.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Can I just say a big kudos to Emily Libby? She had a stop at the downhill oxers, maybe a bit sticky over the first brush in the coffin, horse definitely peeked hard at the ditch, Emily steered to the right as though wisely going for the long option out, I commented "Looks like today is a long option day for her" - and then she held up her hand, pulled up, and withdrew. Walked off the course patting her horse.

I have no idea how the horse was in warm-up, or what her thought process was, but it looked like a spot on fabulous bit of good situational judgement to me. Especially in light of how easy it is to point out the errors others make, I wanted to give a cheer for someone having made that decision in that moment.

[Gnep]

I don`t care if the riders are nice, or if they have dreams, or if they love their horses. Every kid has dreams that don`t come true.
Are they good enough, that`s the one question. Period.
Quote Deny



Jup

[c_expresso]

Yep, congrats to Emilee on this decision. Sometimes it is not our day. But as riders we need to realize when it isn't our day SO WE CAN EVEN HAVE other days.

Can I just say a big kudos to Emily Libby? She had a stop at the downhill oxers, maybe a bit sticky over the first brush in the coffin, horse definitely peeked hard at the ditch, Emily steered to the right as though wisely going for the long option out, I commented "Looks like today is a long option day for her" - and then she held up her hand, pulled up, and withdrew. Walked off the course patting her horse.

I have no idea how the horse was in warm-up, or what her thought process was, but it looked like a spot on fabulous bit of good situational judgement to me. Especially in light of how easy it is to point out the errors others make, I wanted to give a cheer for someone having made that decision in that moment.

[slp2]

Flutie: Please explain to me about the fragible pins. I was under the impression that they are designed to be used on the back rails of oxers. If that is the case--why can't the Footbridge jump be made with a fragible pin? I have seen a few horses get hung up in those types of fences (I remember Cathy W. 's horse got caught in the gi-normous "A-Frame" jump one year. Luckily, neither were hurt). I have seen some try to bounce the footbridge. Again--at these levels there is seemingly NO margin for error. It's danged hard to meet every jump perfectly around a course that length and size (and at that speed). I think David O'Connor once talked about how on your average x-c round, you will get to about 1/3 of the fences perfectly, 1/3 you will have a close spot on, and 1/3 too long--and that's fairly typical. And David was not a shabby rider. Obviously, at the lower levels, most horses can still "stuff" themselves over from a less-than-perfect spot. However, at the upper levels--a little close, or a little long, can have disasterous consequences. We need to keep working on designing fences that can collapse or come down when a rider or horse makes a mistake.

[RiverBendPol]

"...Just because you qualify to move up doesn't mean you are ready...."
Bingo and amen.

[piccolittle]

On the topic of "iffy" rounds...

Did anyone else cringe watching Stephen Bradley and From go around the cross country? I recognize that they went clean and ultimately finished well, but to be totally honest I think it's a miracle they didn't have an accident, given the way most of his jumps seemed to ride...

[LE]

I am heartbroken at the recent tragedies in the event world. I love this sport and have returned to it full tilt.

However, my coach doesn't take things lightly. In order for me to compete, I have to get fit, lose weight and take extra lessons. Everything she said I totally agree with. Even for a low leveled event, she wants her riders 110% prepared, and I would expect nothing less.

I read Laine's road to Rolex/Olympics and it looked as if she was getting some great coaching. I saw her fall on youtube, and I have been to rolex and know the jump. To me, I didn't see any error, but the video was very small and jiggley. Also, it was from the front, so I couldn't see the approach/front of the fence well.

(The video has since been removed from youtube.)

David Oconnor is wise in having people at different events watch to see where they feel there is a lack of knowledge/training. I thought you had to qualify to advance levels in eventing at the higher levels? Like, get a certain % in dressage, and a certain amount of levels before upgrading. Or perhaps I have that mixed up with the Olympic qualifications?

I have to admit, when reading up on Laine's riding accomplishments, Frodo had been at PreLim in February. That seems to be a big leap from PreLim to Advance in two months, but I don't know the horse/rider combo so I don't want to say anything more.

I really feel for Sarah and Laine and I hope they recover from their loss' and that Laine has a speedy recovery. Her fall was just dreadful :(

[jilltx]

One can not legislate for stupidity. The best a governing body can do is take steps to protect riders from themselves - and in so doing, protect our most valuable commodity, our horses.

Flutie


Amen! :)

[c_expresso]

Frodo has been been competing at the CCI*** level since 2005 or 2006. He is not new to advanced.

He went Prelim and Intermediate at the start of the year because Laine likes to ease him back into competition season to get him legged up, as that is the type of thing he needs.

I am heartbroken at the recent tragedies in the event world. I love this sport and have returned to it full tilt.

However, my coach doesn't take things lightly. In order for me to compete, I have to get fit, lose weight and take extra lessons. Everything she said I totally agree with. Even for a low leveled event, she wants her riders 110% prepared, and I would expect nothing less.

I read Laine's road to Rolex/Olympics and it looked as if she was getting some great coaching. I saw her fall on youtube, and I have been to rolex and know the jump. To me, I didn't see any error, but the video was very small and jiggley. Also, it was from the front, so I couldn't see the approach/front of the fence well.

(The video has since been removed from youtube.)

David Oconnor is wise in having people at different events watch to see where they feel there is a lack of knowledge/training. I thought you had to qualify to advance levels in eventing at the higher levels? Like, get a certain % in dressage, and a certain amount of levels before upgrading. Or perhaps I have that mixed up with the Olympic qualifications?

I have to admit, when reading up on Laine's riding accomplishments, Frodo had been at PreLim in February. That seems to be a big leap from PreLim to Advance in two months, but I don't know the horse/rider combo so I don't want to say anything more.

I really feel for Sarah and Laine and I hope they recover from their loss' and that Laine has a speedy recovery. Her fall was just dreadful :(

[LE]

Thanks c-e. I kind of figured she had to have done other four stars--she struck me as a very well schooled rider. I didn't look back to those years.

[Olequa]

I have to admit I am fairly new to the sport of eventing, after showing Saddlebreds for over 20 years(I just got sick of the politics and going around in circles!) I have always had so much respect for the sport of eventing and have had dreams of riding at Rolex since I first saw the movie Sylvester(watched it at least 200 times) and of course living so close to the event made it a bigger dream. Last June I took the first step to fulfill that dream and purchased my first Thoroughbred. I have spent the last year training this horse and forming that bond between horse and rider that I believe everyone needs to have to make a successful partnership. I was at the sunken road when Sarah had the fall with Micky. I saw the tarps go up and just got the worst feeling. She barely made it through the sunken road(after many smacks with the crop) and I said to the group of people I was with, that she needed to stop because that horse looked very tired and she was not even 1/2 way through the course. Luckily I did not see either fall, but this has made such an imprint in my mind that I have not been able to stop thinking about it since Saturday. I have lost one horse to colic and was totally devastated. I can not imagine being personally responsible for the death of my horse. I love Rolex and will continue go, but this weekend has definitely made me think twice about how far I want to go.

[GreekDressageQueen]

I was watching a news report online and there was a short interview with David O'Conner discussing Laine's accident. I tried to find it again, but they refreshed the pop up window with a new video. Anyway, David specifically said that Laine's accident "was a rare occurrence" and that these accidents are not always avoidable in such high level competition. I don't disagree with the later statement, but when does something cease to be "rare?" Twelve deaths, 4 in the last month - everyone knows the numbers now - can we say these tragic accidents are "rare?" Why is he saying this?

I wasn't there at Rolex, I didn't see what happened, but I do think the safety and interest of our upper-level riders has become less important than eventing's "image."

[RAyers]

... Anyway, David specifically said that Laine's accident "was a rare occurrence" and that these accidents are not always avoidable in such high level competition.


"Rare occurrence" / "Weapons of mass destruction"

Reed

[Albion]

Some of the talk about frangible pins seems to be parallel to the PVC wing discussion that took place several years ago in the American steeplechase world. There were several severe injuries to riders & horses - and death in a few cases, and one of the big causes was the wings on the fences. I was at the Montpelier races when a horse impaled itself on a wooden wing - the course setup was admittedly odd (the Montpelier course had permanent natural brush hedges & timber fences parallel to each other, with a gap in the middle - for the yearly races, the hurdles were brought in & put in the middle. The gap wasn't wide enough to really allow spaces in between the three types of fences), so when the horse tried to run out, it was 'fenced' in by the wooden wings and wound up impaling itself. That accident was the last straw, and a big reason they started mandating PVC wings at all NSA events - they were developed & in use in the UK and *some* US events, but were expensive & not every race could afford them.

So the NSA purchased a set, since they realized many of the smaller organizers couldn't afford to purchase a full set of PVC wings (e.g., the Montpelier 'chase is run for charity), and they ship them around. This way all races can 'afford' to be safe, and the PVC really does help since horses and riders can just bounce off.

Now, I realize they can't do that with frangible pins & permanent XC fences, but can't the USEA or USEF subsidize retrofitting in cases where the cost is overwhelming to an event? There have been a lot of discussions about the shrinking profit margin of many events, rising cost of entries, and fees, fees, fees, but wouldn't it make sense to combine upping entry fees/membership fees by a little bit and get help from the organizations? I can see where the cost of retrofitting all fences @ $70 pop + labor would get really expensive, really fast for smaller events that are working on shoestring budgets.

[pegasusmom]

One can not legislate for stupidity. The best a governing body can do is take steps to protect riders from themselves - and in so doing, protect our most valuable commodity, our horses.

Flutie

We have seen the enemy and he is us.

I really can't seem to get my thoughts together on this - maybe because it is 4AM and I am contemplating a root canal instead of a birthday trip to the mountains this week :(. Falsifying qualifications, shoving horses up the levels too fast, eliminated riders not leaving the course, and more instances of sheer gross ego/ignorance than you can imagine.

I think we do an awful lot right. I also think there is not one single simple answer - tightening up qualifications, increasing age requirements, more careful scrutiny of entries, more thoughtful course design (although I don't think it gets much better than what Mike ES did this year), better education of riders, organizers and officials, better fence design are all part of the equation. But in the end, in this McDonald's hot coffee in my lap era, the ulitmate responsibility lies with us as riders and parents of riders.

[flutie1]

Oh Dana, double Amen to all!!!!! Good luck with the root canal. Ugh!

slp2 - the frangible pins can only be used on rails (logs) up to a certain weight. (I believe that they can support 250 pounds each, but I'm not sure of the specifics). They also need a certain "fall" distance, (again, not sure of the specific). It is safe to say however that the Rolex crew is the most experienced XC crew in the country, and I'm sure everything that could be pinned was. (Sorry if this sounds very vague).

I will personallyt take a definite exception to David's "rare occurrence" comment. Being a bit of an activist, (some would even say anarchist!), I am quite sick of the "business as usual" spin that I hear among a certain faction of our sport.

The USEF rule proposal about qualifications will make our qualifications tougher than the FEI's and will call for a certain number of clean rounds. Currently, if one reads the FEI rules correctly, one could do Rolex never having had a clean XC. Scary!

If the one fall and out goes through, some people would be "caught" after a bounce off connected with jumping a fence. This is very true. But even with a "bounce off," that rider will not get a qualifying score or probably wont be in the ribbons - and if it prevents an accident by weeding out someone who in reality shouldn't be there on that day, it's worth it (IMHO).

And finally, yes, a big YAY to Emilee for doing the right thing.

Flutie

[LLDM]

One can not legislate for stupidity. The best a governing body can do is take steps to protect riders from themselves - and in so doing, protect our most valuable commodity, our horses.

Flutie

I will third this statement. Maybe the thing to do is put some real punitive consequences into effect. People need to be going on long vacations when they screw up or skirt the rules.

Even if specific rules are not broken, we might consider some serious time-outs when a horse is killed, falls or is injured. Really, folks need to do some serious reflecting on such incidents.

SCFarm

[slp2]

thanks for the explanation FLutie. But again--I have to ask, why wouldn't they just remodel that fence (and others) with logs that *can* utilize the fragible pin? Wouldn't it be worth it--to replace the log that is there, with a safer version?

Again, I contend that even if you make the qualifications so tough that only the top, elite riders can head out on that course--they (or their horses) can still make a mistake. Top showjumpers make mistakes and they aren't tackling a course with terrain and 25-30 fences. As I said in my earlier post--at the 4* level there is just NO margin for error. In fact, I saw a lot of awkward rides through the coffin by our top URL riders. The key difference is that the jump before and after that ditch are brush fences. They were forgiving, so the mishaps didn't cause horses to flip--they just scraped through the brush! We need to build and design more safe / forgiving fences for the sake of the horses!!

[pegasusmom]

slp2 - the best explanation anyone can give you is to let you look at a "frangibly pinned" fence. If you are in North Carolina - come to the Carolina Horse Park and I'll show you some good examples.

And there simply is no way to take all the risk out. How safe is getting in your car? Every time my son leaves the start box I hold my breathe. . . but I hold it more every morning when he leaves the garage on his 25 minute drive to school.

We can, are and will make things better, to protect the horses we all love and keep the stupid from damaging the sport more. Knee jerk reactions, mass media mass hysteria and summary executions are not the answer. I believe everyone in the sport is more aware then they were 10 years ago and I think much good will come of this if we take the lead.

And the good ol' days?? Take a good look at history, horse care and course design. I think we are better off than the day a horse drowned at the Olympics in Mexico City, or the day two horses died at the Vicarage Vee. I think we are better off than the racing industry. And I think if we all stay calm and work together eventing will not only survive, it will be better.

OK. . . off my Pollyanna, rose colored glasses soapbox. Flutie I am taking percosett and opting for the mountains. A girl doesn't turn 29 every day! :D

[FlightCheck]

and that's why Flutie is my role model....her willingness to talk about the (ahem) elephant in the room

[Eventer55]

So, the steeplechase and Roads and Tracks was taken away, my question is would have the horses at Rolex that fell (all of them) have gone on to compete after S and R&T or would they have been spun? Even if only 2 were spun would it have saved lives?

Also, if the requirements are made steeper will this help replace S and R&T as far as eliminationg horses that should not be running XC?

Combine frangibel pins and tougher requirements and do we have a safer sport?

[cindylouwho]

I am 100% in support of tougher qualifications for move ups. But after watching Rolex, my mind keeps thinking about what has changed.

I am the same rider as I was 10 years ago, but hopefully a little wiser. My horse is the same horse as 10 years ago, but maybe a different color. But basically, we are still the same. My saddle is the same, but a few more blemishes on it. Some saddles are supposed to keep you more secure, but there is not that much difference. No seat belts or legs strapes!

So, what has changed? XC course design has changed. We used to jump logs, timbers, rails and coops. We now jump flower baskets, animals, corners and skinnies. The lines are tighter and the fences are less forgiving. A vertical face is not forgiving when a mistake happens. I don't have any animals at home to school over, just logs and natural jumps. I am a rider and will make mistakes. My horse is a horse and will make mistakes. I don't want to die nor do I want my horse to die if I make a mistake.

I watched several riders at Rolex have some very close calls and several falls. It did not look like fun. I want to run and jump with my horse and live to jump another day. We need to look at the jumps. They should not kill the horse nor the rider if an small error is made. I do understand our sport has risks and "accidents" can happen. But too many "accidents" or rider errors are cause for alarm.

Please note: I did watch several riders do wonderful clear rounds, that did look like fun, but the scary ones keep coming back to me.

[Pixie Dust]

I don't feel quite right making public judgements. I'm not a trainer, and I've never done anything more than novice. I didn't hang out at the picnic basket all day, but I did see several riders take it beautifully, with the horse's up in the front in the canter.

[sisu27]

I feel very strongly that there should be a minimum age/experience requirement, even it means running at the *** level for several years.)

Age is not the issue as proven by Waylon Roberts xc ride, it was beautiful. But I guess Waylon has the benefit of having Ian and Kelly for parents. I don't know Sarah or Laine but I am sure they are nice girls who love(d) their horses. It doesn't really matter now though does it? If riders can't be trusted to make the right decisions for the safety of their horses than someone needs to step in and do it for them. This can't happen again.

It is getting difficult to defend the sport that I love.

[SandyUHC]

Edited: Not the place for this point.

[Jazzy Lady]

This is one case where I don't think the course was the problem. The footbridge is tried and true. A couple of falls, but this was the first accident, and I feel it was because the rider perhaps shouldn't have been doing **** or should perhaps have pulled up when the course wasn't riding well.

Rider responsibility.

Fro's accident seemed like a fluke and who knows what happened. The Rolex course this year looked challenging, but galloping, big and inviting. Many first timers had great rounds, and there were more double clears than there has been in the past.

[c_expresso]

Yup yup, Jazzy said it!!

This is one case where I don't think the course was the problem. The footbridge is tried and true. A couple of falls, but this was the first accident, and I feel it was because the rider perhaps shouldn't have been doing **** or should perhaps have pulled up when the course wasn't riding well.

Rider responsibility.

Fro's accident seemed like a fluke and who knows what happened. The Rolex course this year looked challenging, but galloping, big and inviting. Many first timers had great rounds, and there were more double clears than there has been in the past.

[JAM]

Flutie wrote: "I will personally take a definite exception to David's "rare occurrence" comment. Being a bit of an activist, (some would even say anarchist!), I am quite sick of the "business as usual" spin that I hear among a certain faction of our sport."

Amen. I wish there were more among the powers that be (I consider you to be one of them) who would have the courage to vocalize such anarchical thoughts publicly. Then maybe we could get somewhere. The bunker mentality is not helpful.

[Shrapnel]

I agree that The Quiet Man looked off his game a bit

Yes, Unfortunatly he did.

[Glimmerglass]

With the vast amounts of problems with accessing this forum yesterday I was not able to timely correct my original post (top of page 2) to correct my error. I incorrectly identified Sarah Hansel as having fallen twice in my OP; it was Dornin Anne North aboard Lion Display. My regrets for the confusion.

[crittertwitter]

Flutie wrote: "I will personally take a definite exception to David's "rare occurrence" comment. Being a bit of an activist, (some would even say anarchist!), I am quite sick of the "business as usual" spin that I hear among a certain faction of our sport."

Amen. I wish there were more among the powers that be (I consider you to be one of them) who would have the courage to vocalize such anarchical thoughts publicly. Then maybe we could get somewhere. The bunker mentality is not helpful.

OK, you guys led me to look up the definition of anarchy, a word I've used for years. I don't see how activism is synonymous with anarchy - au contraire. But I think I have it - coupling this with your post about personal responsibility, your activism is in the direction of "Individual responsibility, not Community Regulation." I agree that each rider has to take responsibility for their actions, but I did leave Rolex with the overwhelming feeling that there is no reason for our horses to pay for our decisions with their lives... or for our horses hearts and careers to culminate in a moment's mistake or judgement error (theirs or ours). It was *so* sad. And so painful... seeing them head out and gallop by full of life and the beauty and power that enables us. Only to see them crash 10 seconds later. Whatever the reason, whoever made the error, fluke or folly, this is not OK.

[hey101]

Mike E-S’s course was incredibly thoughtful and sophisticated. He deliberately included a handful of vertical faced fences that required riders to balance their horses before jumping. All fences that could be frangibled were. Minute variations in terrain before and after fences, placement, and uses of “devices” like follies were deliberately designed to slow horses down. It was not overly technical in nature, but asked many sophisticated questions while allowing horses/riders to establish and maintain a consistent forward rhythm. There were 13 double clears and several clears with minor time faults.

Folks, the bottom line is NO MATTER HOW SKILLED A DESIGNER IS, HE CAN NOT PROTECT A HORSE OR RIDER FROM GROSS PILOT ERROR. PERIOD. I feel as sad for Frodo and Lainey as anyone, but the reality is, Lainey blasted into that fence at top speed and never made any effort to set the horse up. Frodo never had a chance.

It is tragic, but the real tragedy is – what will it take to wake riders up to their responsibility to protect themselves, their horses, and the sport? We can point fingers forever at various factions and natter on about collapsible jumps, and yes, everyone – designers, officials, organizers, trainers, owners – must shoulder some responsibility for the mess we are in – but there is only one person on that horse.

Flutie

I completely agree, especially with the bolded part (emphasis mine). I have been trying to write something similar myself on other threads, and now that I have read this one I don't have to.

I am SICKENED by these horses doing nothing more than is asked of them- jumping that fence in front of them- and DYING for it.

At the end of the day, when they go out on that course, the rider and ONLY the rider is SOLELY responsible for every decision made, the pace of the ride, how every fence is jumped. And yes, they are also responsible for the mistakes they make and the consequences of those mistakes. Whether that rider mistake was made on the course itself by going too fast/ too slow/ burying their horse to a jump/ taking a flier, 6 weeks ago by entering a level they weren't ready for, 3 years ago by moving up-up-up the levels before actually mastering the skills, or so on.

By the time someone gets to Rolex, they should NOT be making a mistake like the wrong speed of approach into a specific type of obstacle. They should have learned those skills a long time ago on smaller versions of the same fences. Yes, sh!t happens- horses slip on takeoff, they stumble on landing, they hang a leg. And it is those kinds of mistakes and accidents that we can improve fence and course design to help horse and rider survive the resulting fall. But NO WAY should rider after rider after rider be making the kinds of errors on a 4-star course that any competent trainer would kick the a$$ of their novice-level pony clubbers for.

[Liz Chilcott]

Hear! Hear!.....It was a verticle fence and needed to have the horse rebalanced and she didn't. Also, there are some horses with so much heart that they will try to keep going no matter how badly the approach or speed is and others that will stop or glance off when things are wrong. The rider must know which kind they have and take their job of getting to the fence at the right place, right pace and right balance very seriously.

[hey101]

We have seen the enemy and he is us.

I really can't seem to get my thoughts together on this - maybe because it is 4AM and I am contemplating a root canal instead of a birthday trip to the mountains this week :(. Falsifying qualifications, shoving horses up the levels too fast, eliminated riders not leaving the course, and more instances of sheer gross ego/ignorance than you can imagine.

I think we do an awful lot right. I also think there is not one single simple answer - tightening up qualifications, increasing age requirements, more careful scrutiny of entries, more thoughtful course design (although I don't think it gets much better than what Mike ES did this year), better education of riders, organizers and officials, better fence design are all part of the equation. But in the end, in this McDonald's hot coffee in my lap era, the ulitmate responsibility lies with us as riders and parents of riders.

Dana- yes yes yes! We all need to collectively put on our big-girl and big-boy panties and look in the mirror and let the buck stop there.

[samdolly]

I also don't care about them being nice or have dreams etc. I am all for having them be qualified to compete at the upper levels. If your horse has XC faults whether it be time or refusals then they don't move up! Just because you "finish" doesn't mean you are qualified and should move up.:no: But many riders think because they have finished an event they can move up the levels. But they also need the coaching. I cringe at how many riders I see ride without a coach or even walk a course without a coach!

[cindylouwho]

I agree it is the rider who makes the decisions, but I don't agree that the smallest of error should cause death to one or both. The fences need forgiving faces, as we make mistakes. There is no perfect rides, just lucky ones. I watched some better riders than others, but everyone has a hitch here and there. It is the nature of the sport. Any of those hitches could be very serious if not for skill of the rider, foot work of the horse or luck.

I believe every horse should qualify with 3 dressage scores under 40, double clean XC and no more than 2 rails on stadium to move up and all in the same horse trials. I believe it should be 5 for the rider to move up. These should start at novice! And maybe 5 for any horse moving from prelim and up. I bet some won't like those thoughts, but I see too many people move up without the dressage needed for today's XC courses.

My non-eventing friends are reading about eventing in a very scary light. I love my sport, but I love my horse more. I can't imagine my horse dead because I got her in a little too close to a fence.

[ponyjumper4]

A couple of falls, but this was the first accident, and I feel it was because the rider perhaps shouldn't have been doing **** or should perhaps have pulled up when the course wasn't riding well.

Rider responsibility.

Fro's accident seemed like a fluke and who knows what happened. The Rolex course this year looked challenging, but galloping, big and inviting. Many first timers had great rounds, and there were more double clears than there has been in the past.

If you think she wasn't qualified to run it, then you are sadly, sadly mistaken. This wasn't her first time and had gone double clear that morning on a horse she had only been riding since January. She was supposed to run it last year as well but had something that kept her from going. As far as the course not riding well, it was only the 5th fence and Laine knows Frodo like the back of her hand and would never have continued had she felt it unsafe for him to do so.

How do you determine if someone is not qualified enough when it can happen to anyone?

Has there been an autopsy done or revealed yet on Frodo? Word on the grounds on Sunday from a few people was that the vet had said that he had a pulmonary hemorage right before the jump--haven't been able to find any official reports though to verify.

[roki143]

If you think she wasn't qualified to run it, then you are sadly, sadly mistaken. This wasn't her first time and had gone double clear that morning on a horse she had only been riding since January. She was supposed to run it last year as well but had something that kept her from going. As far as the course not riding well, it was only the 5th fence and Laine knows Frodo like the back of her hand and would never have continued had she felt it unsafe for him to do so.

How do you determine if someone is not qualified enough when it can happen to anyone?

Agreed... Laine is young, yes... ambitious, yes... but an experienced rider at the upper levels with several different horses.

I won't even get into possible solutions because I think that many very good options are in people's heads at the moment, but I will say that there have been incidents in the past involving top riders that have led to an animals death (Karen OC, Alison S, Sinead H - to name a couple off the top of my head)... and although I know those riders suffered greatly from their actions, they learned from it, and are still going at the top of the game today.

I don't even really know the connection and by no means am I saying that a animal's death is something to be taken lightly... but I am saying that it is not only inexperienced, or young people but also those who are highly respected in this sport - and to assume so is passing off the true problem (whatever the problem may be)

[LE]

When it comes down to it, I think you have to realize, riders have good days and bad days. I wasn't there this year, but have been there in the past. It was obvious when a rider had the rhythm vs riders who were having trouble (I remember being at the water and seeing two riders go down into it, and then Karen O'Connor came in and make it look like a 2ft grid exercise --like it was a piece of cake!)

But, Karen Oconnor has had her share of accidents and falls I'm sure---so, the bottom line? I'm sure Sarah and Laine could tell you they make mistakes. We all do--I think it's just that their mistakes had very tragic outcomes. Instead of pointing fingers and making accusations on people, I hope the USCTA and USEF can use this to help further our sport along, so that this doesn't happen.

[SGray]

I will third this statement. Maybe the thing to do is put some real punitive consequences into effect. People need to be going on long vacations when they screw up or skirt the rules.

Even if specific rules are not broken, we might consider some serious time-outs when a horse is killed, falls or is injured. Really, folks need to do some serious reflecting on such incidents.

SCFarm

Perhaps a cascading scale of penalty points sliding from horse sound at end of competition (obviously no penalties - perhaps a couple of bonus points) to horse died as result of injuries sustained during competition (large # penalties).

Perhaps riders should have to have a coach sign off on the fact that they are prepared for the level. Coach receives penalty points for horse/rider injuries. Gets bonus points for sound, successful completions by same. (After a rider has completed X number of competitions at that level or has been on international Team they no longer must have coach sign for them.) Shared responsibilty is responsibilty squared.

[JenJ]

I feel as sad for Frodo and Lainey as anyone, but the reality is, Lainey blasted into that fence at top speed and never made any effort to set the horse up. Frodo never had a chance.


Flutie

Even if this is true, what have we as eventers done to our horses that we seem to have trained that self preservation instinct out of the horse at the higher levels?
I find it so hard to understand why, in this sort of situation, the horse doesn't realize one stride away from the fence that they are in an impossible position and at least try to quit or run out. For sure the rider will go crashing into or over the fence - that is the sort of risk we all accept, but I (as a LLR) have never felt that if I make a catastropic error in judgment, anything worse will happen than that my horse will slam on the breaks and I get a well deserved flying lesson and hard landing and maybe a broken bone at worst.

I love this sport, but the horses are not supposed to be dying.

[Pixie Dust]

People make catostrophic errors in judgement all the time. Especially in cars.

[monstrpony]

Even if this is true, what have we as eventers done to our horses that we seem to have trained that self preservation instinct out of the horse at the higher levels?
I find it so hard to understand why, in this sort of situation, the horse doesn't realize one stride away from the fence that they are in an impossible position and at least try to quit or run out. For sure the rider will go crashing into or over the fence - that is the sort of risk we all accept, but I (as a LLR) have never felt that if I make a catastropic error in judgment, anything worse will happen than that my horse will slam on the breaks and I get a well deserved flying lesson and hard landing and maybe a broken bone at worst.

I love this sport, but the horses are not supposed to be dying.

I can look back at the moment, over twenty years ago, when an eventing coach told me my horse was to jump at all costs, no matter what, and see exactly when I started to question my love of eventing. Giving up the partnership that gave my horse the right to second guess my poor judgement, or lack of judgement, was a serious and major wrong turn in the development of my horsemanship. In recent years, I've gone back and corrected that deviation, and am a much better horsewoman for it. It precludes me ever winning an Olympic medal in eventing--and I am very, very content with that. The longer that the recent carnage goes on, the more content I become.

You're right, the horses are not supposed to be dying. Left some respect for their own clever devices, they would not be.

[Quinn]

Monstrpony I agree and respect your comments completely.

[SR Rider]

As a former LLR (training) what would have been the single best thing to have helped me
be a better, more consistent rider....hacking and trail riding.

[TB or not TB?]

I was discussing the same issue just the other day. Especially with the increased focus on dressage, which has been shown to take away the "think for yourself" attitude in some horses, we are almost being set up for this kind of accident.

One can look at horses like No It Tissant and UN, who had terrible dressage (and very clear opinions on the matter!) but also brilliant XC rides, compared with a horse like Woodburn, who had a lovely dressage test but how much was Phillip carrying him for the other phases? When it's Phillip, no big deal. He could probably ride a sandwich for the win. When it's a mere mortal, we need our equine partners to save our butts as well.

[NeverTime]

Funny you should mention Woodburn. In all this talk about having the experience/qualifications/etc., here's a horse who had done pretty much the BARE minimum number of events to qualify for a four-star. In fact, he had been going advanced for all of one month before he did Fair Hill, and he'd done just four events at the advanced level before tackling Rolex, but he did them all exceptionally well:
September: 1st in his first advanced HT at So. Pines
September: 1st in his first CIC*** at Wit's End
October: 3rd in his first CCI*** at Fair Hill
April: 15th (23 time penalties XC) at CIC*** at The Fork
April: 9th at Rolex CCI****
That's an incredibly green advanced horse with a very experienced rider on his back, but he pretty much hasn't taken a single step wrong in his (notably young) advanced career. Where does he fit in the paradigm of what should/shouldn't be allowed?

[pony grandma]

It is so hard - there are so many fine lines here. A top level XC horse is all about heart. Even a race horse keeps running 'after' an injury. They are just not about thinking no. And, at that speed, it is incredibly difficult to stop. Bravery takes that risk. Soldiers do it every day (for us).

I keep going back to the 4*/3* split that they ran at Rolex several years ago. They needed that last weekend. Then many could still realize the Rolex dream, and they could easily fill the entries.

[TB or not TB?]

To that, I would say that Phillip is the exception to the rules, and consequently we should not make the rules around him. :yes:

P.S. I hope no one thinks I was picking on any of the mentioned horses - I was very impressed with Woodburn's performance and I forgot to include him on my covet list.

[NeverTime]

I seriously doubt any of the riders who competed at Rolex last weekend would've entered a *** if it had been offered.
There already is a spring *** at Jersey Fresh, and people who think that's the more appropriate level for their horse this spring have already entered it, including a number who either scratched or withdrew from Rolex and plan to go to the Jersey Fresh *** instead.
I firmly believe that everyone who was there that weekend was there not just to fulfill the dream of riding at Rolex but because they truly believed they & their horses were ready to attempt a four-star. Dreams might cloud judgment, but I don't think there was anyone there who blatantly wasn't ready (based on past experience) for that level of competition.