YOUTUBE

[jst6881]

Does anyone know if the falls of either horse were on Youtube?

[Eventer13]

The fall of Laine is on youtube.

[horsepix76]

I sincerely hope they are not. Why anyone would WANT to watch a horse crash into a fence, or crush a rider and then collapse is beyond me. It horrific enough to think about it or have witnessed it -- forget posting a video of it on YouTube. However, in this day and age, I'm sure it won't be long before the horrific scenes are up there so all the thrill mongers, ambulance chasers and armchair quarterbacks can hash it over again. :mad:

[hedmbl]

Sadly, yes. It is horrific and disturbing. IMO it is poor taste to post such a thing so soon after the death of Fro. I clicked on the link from an email that had no description. I had never seen a rotational fall before and hope to never see such a thing again.

It shows a major lack of concern/consideration for Laine and her team to post it.

[LexInVA]

It's like half the people want it taken down because it's disturbing and half want to keep it up to send a message. I'm just glad there's not much to see in the clip and it's shot from far away. The last thing I'd want to ever see is the view next to that jump.

[Blugal]

Someone could notify Carr-Hughes productions. All YouTube usually requires is a request to remove it by its rightful owner, and it will do so promptly.

[LexInVA]

Someone could notify Carr-Hughes productions. All YouTube usually requires is a request to remove it by its rightful owner, and it will do so promptly.

As far as I can tell it's spectator footage. Not from their shooters.

[Rt66Kix]

It's like half the people want it taken down because it's disturbing and half want to keep it up to send a message. I'm just glad there's not much to see in the clip and it's shot from far away. The last thing I'd want to ever see is the view next to that jump.

It was absolutely horrible. I was literally sick to my stomach. I will never forget the sight. It really was deeply disturbing to me, and many people in the crowd were crying.

[dsgshowmom]

I don't think they should remove it. As a dressage rider, one who used to train with XC competitors on a fairly regular basis, people need to see this. This rotational fall would have been prevented if the jump would have fallen down instead of the horse going ass over tea kettle.

What is it worth, Rolex? What is it worth, The Kentucky Derby? If we cannot make it safe for the horses as well, what are you winning?

As a dressage rider, we (dressage riders) *are* taught that the horse comes first no matter what. Dressage is an integral part of the three day. Where was that lost?

[TB or not TB?]

The last thing I'd want to ever see is the view next to that jump.

I was watching the live footage, which although is not like being there, was very... up close and personal. Even though I've been studying these falls, I have never seen one as horrific as this. :no: I was sick to my stomach.

[LexInVA]

As a dressage rider, we (dressage riders) *are* taught that the horse comes first no matter what. Dressage is an integral part of the three day. Where was that lost?

2003. When the people (wealthy socialites) guiding the sport of H/J decided that their vision of glory and power was to be shared (forced upon) with the rest of us (slaves) for the sake of international respect (lining their pockets).

[2LaZ2race]

I'd never seen a rotational fall and as horrible as you can feel reading about it or knowing the stats of the results its not the same as actually seeing it. Now I want to help make this sport safer for the horse and rider even more. I don't think anyone is watching the video as entertainment like a "thrills and spills" video, everyone is shocked and saddened and if its used to provoke change then at least some good will come of it.

[Blugal]

As a dressage rider, we (dressage riders) *are* taught that the horse comes first no matter what.

dsgshowmom, I don't think comparisons of equestrian sports is all that helpful in this context. And I will say, "let [the sport] who is without sin cast the first stone".

[Bensmom]

I, too, am saddened, but not surprised that the footage is on youtube.

fwiw, Carr-Hughes is the rightful owner of the right to broadcast Rolex footage to the public in any form. Shot by a spectator or not, they have exclusive rights to all broadcast footage. They can request that Youtube remove the footage, as I believe they did last year to some Rolex video that was posted on Youtube.

There probably just has not been enough time for someone official to realize it, and take the appropriate action.

While there may be an argument for the warning value of such footage, out of respect to Laine, I wish it weren't posted. It would be an awful feeling to know that people were clicking on a link eagerly to watch my best friend be mortally wounded.

I would prefer to not see anything like it again, myself. I have no interest in watching the video.

Libby (thus endeth the lecture on copyright law)

[horsenut1966]

I'd never seen a rotational fall and as horrible as you can feel reading about it or knowing the stats of the results its not the same as actually seeing it. Now I want to help make this sport safer for the horse and rider even more. I don't think anyone is watching the video as entertainment like a "thrills and spills" video, everyone is shocked and saddened and if its used to provoke change then at least some good will come of it.


I agree with this statement. I was not happy that the streaming video took it out. I am the mother of a 15 year old who has dreams of riding Rolex. She currently rides one star..I have mixed emotions about her sport. I love her riding, but I really need to understand the risk. Everytime someone gets hurt...the people in the sport have a rationalization...I am trying to figure it out so whether or not the sport is further regulated, I understand the circumstances..to make better decisions.

[WhatzUp]

... As a dressage rider, we (dressage riders) *are* taught that the horse comes first no matter what. ...

:rolleyes:

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[Kenike]

While it may be in poor taste for commong viewers to take a peek(and yes, I admit I'm among those who have looked), I still can't help but wonder if Laine will want to see this. Not being morbid, just a 'what the heck happened' type of thing. We all know what it's like to witness something happening, but it FEELS totally different.

I suspect it will be pulled, but one never knows. It's not like there's not a ton of other Rolex footage, including falls (nothing like this, though).

[Mariequi]

Last year the footage of Amy and LeSamauri was up there, but not for long after reported. I believe that was privately shot as well. No comparisons of disciplines. We've all seen "sins" in them all.

[BigRuss1996]

I saw it and it is definately spectator made as the angle is totally different and actually quite helpful to see another view as you can really see what happened..... These things DO happen, people make mistakes and people need to see that these things CAN happen so they know what they are getting into when they decide to "come over to the dark side". This sport has never been a completely safe sport and never will be that is why you sign a release form to enter stating you understand it is a high risk sport. Do I feel there have been too many falls lately ....yes. Do I feel they are all the fault of CD's and "the sport"...no. We as riders have a huge responsibility when we go out on course and we can't be right every time and neither can our horses no matter how much we train so there is a grey area that can be very dangerous.

[Sannois]

I saw it and it is definately spectator made as the angle is totally different and actually quite helpful to see another view as you can really see what happened..... These things DO happen, people make mistakes and people need to see that these things CAN happen so they know what they are getting into when they decide to "come over to the dark side". This sport has never been a completely safe sport and never will be that is why you sign a release form to enter stating you understand it is a high risk sport. Do I feel there have been too many falls lately ....yes. Do I feel they are all the fault of CD's and "the sport"...no. We as riders have a huge responsibility when we go out on course and we can't be right every time and neither can our horses no matter how much we train so there is a grey area that can be very dangerous.
Do you know its title on YouTube?
Not to be morbid I was there, Actually right by the fence, I did not see it. I would like to see what really happened.
As tragic as it was, I believe it is important to see these things and try and learn from them.
I am not of the belief that we should hide these accidents, and give up watching Eventing, I dont understand the people who claim to love this sport and support it and then say they may never go to Rolex again:confused:
Instead of crying and cringing and saying its the end of eventing, we need to all continue to back the sport and try and look for ways to make accidents like these less common.
I could go on and on. This sport does not need negativity from its masses, it needs support and clear heads! :yes:

[Catersun]

if you search "laine horse frodo", it's the only vid that comes up.

It's very tragic, yes. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this next statement.... but what was a rider who had a horse die LAST YEAR of something that sounds a lot like human greed (horse getting too hot and dieing) doing riding again this year at rolex? Maybe her horsemanship wasn't high enough to be competeing at that level.

Question? How would jumps that can be knocked down keep these fall from causing as much injury? Or would we still see horses being put down?

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Question? How would jumps that can be knocked down keep these fall from causing as much injury? Or would we still see horses being put down?

Im no expert on frangiple pins..but from what I understand, they prevent rotational falls like this...

horse flips over the fence, but as the downward pressure of the horse hitting the rail is at its highest, the pin pops and the fence completely drops away, thus it no longer provides a pivot point for thehorse to flip over, and the horse crumples rather than flips right over the top.

Sorry that makes it sound even worse..but basically the horse will still fall to a degree, but not a rotational fall. I just don't understand why they aren't on every possible fence! Why? I read somewhere recently that it was about money. For farks sake, there are millions and millions of dollars being invested in eventing...use the damn pins.

Ive just watched the footage, and well....lets just say I wish they would stop making cross country a freaking time trial.

[Catersun]

Thanks... that is what I thought about the pins.

No longer a timed event.... interesting suggestion.

[horsepix76]

It's very tragic, yes. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this next statement.... but what was a rider who had a horse die LAST YEAR of something that sounds a lot like human greed (horse getting too hot and dieing) doing riding again this year at rolex? Maybe her horsemanship wasn't high enough to be competeing at that level.


Its uneducated statements like this that REALLY irk me. Laine's horse last year had a full necropsy after collapsing and it turns out he died of internal bleeding in his intestine. It had nothing to do with overheating other than the overheating was a byproduct of the bleeding -- not the other way around. It was NOT Laine's fault.

[Catersun]

ok then. I was wrong.... that wasn't what I had read. I only had read that she had a horse die of a heat leated death at jersy fresh last year. That was all the details I had seen. So tell me more about the internal bleeding of the horse? What was the cause?

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Thanks... that is what I thought about the pins.

No longer a timed event.... interesting suggestion.

Yeah, its basically a physics lesson re the pins...one that its too late to be trying to think about for me lol (its midnight where I am ;-) )

Hmm...we have just had our national pc champs down here in NZ (similar in prestige to your NAYRC's) run at prelim level. 5 of the top placed riders came in around 25 seconds under time on XC, the rest were over. It drives me completely bonkers that (nz anyway) kids are (wrongly) being told XC is all about going hard and fast - and clearly that showed at our national PC champs given the times achieved! I hate to imagine how fast they were caning it around..and of course when they stop up the levels they will go even faster and maybe end up a statistic then also.

I guess I will always be the rider with time faults on my XC, but hey, the selectors arent' ringing me any time soon so I guess thats not really a problem!

Its such a tragic thing to have happen, and I have to admit to having Laine's blog saved to my favourites and I check it every week or so... but maybe something good will come out of it and things will start to change for the better.

Best wishes to Laine for a speedy recovery, and I can't even imagine what it is like to lose a horse under such circumstances.

[Kcisawesome]

Ok, so I watched the video. And I am very confused. It does not look like he even tryed to jump the jump, I don't know if they misjudged the take off or what, but the last stride or two before the jump look very weird/wrong.

This jump was among those that were suposed to be easy gallopy fences taken in a rythmm. A horse, especially one like Frodo does not just get tired and body slam fences, watching that video, I think that there must be more to the story.

[DRTY.2]

IWWH - just a correction... their Prelim is our Novice, our Open/Pre-Novice is midway between their Training and Prelim.

[shamrocker]

The deaths and tragedy in the sport of eventing are truly disturbing. My 13 year old daughter who is a budding young event rider, has now changed her mind about ever aspiring to ride at Rolex. I know it is often the dream of young riders, but after hearing and reading about what is going, on, she has changed her outlook.

I made the mistake of watching the Youtube this morning. It was horrific and my immediate response was to cry. As a parent and rider, I also find the whole thing sickening.

[findeight]

Leave it up. If this type accident has to be part of the sport and, from what you are saying, the vid is not morbid or in great detail. Leave it up so those who do not know what a rotational fall is can see it and start thinking harder about how to prevent them. And, maybe, stop defending the type fence that can create them.

This whole idea that "it's a **** and you have to expect bad accidents" is crap. So is having fatalities almost every year at a marquee event that is supposed to draw fans in, not make them sick.

And don't tell me because other disciplines are not without sin, it justifies dead horses/riders and catastrophic injuries with increasing frequency.

Horses are dangerous and not so bright on their own. Accidents are going to happen...but we need to do all we can to protect them. Eventing is not doing that, choosing to defend the kick on at all costs and stick to fence construction for reasons other then safety.

No, Not an Eventer. So, no I don't understand. Coming to think that is a good thing.

[devcubber]

This whole idea that "it's a **** and you have to expect bad accidents" is crap.

Amen.

If a few dogs, and handlers, died every year at Westminster (their "****"), most humans, dog owners or not, would find that appalling and call for a complete and utter stop to the event(s) that caused their death.

I refuse to be okay with a sport that has an acceptable (seemingly, at this point) rate of death for its participants, both human and horse. I'm sure some will say, then don't participate, or watch, or support it, because that is an accepted risk of the sport. I don't accept it, and therefore am NO LONGER participating, watching and supporting.

[SueCoo2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by findeight
This whole idea that "it's a **** and you have to expect bad accidents" is crap.

Amen.

If a few dogs, and handlers, died every year at Westminster (their "****"), most humans, dog owners or not, would find that appalling and call for a complete and utter stop to the event(s) that caused their death.

I refuse to be okay with a sport that has an acceptable (seemingly, at this point) rate of death for its participants, both human and horse. I'm sure some will say, then don't participate, or watch, or support it, because that is an accepted risk of the sport. I don't accept it, and therefore am NO LONGER participating, watching and supporting.


I totally agree. After this weekend's tragedies, I am seriously thinking this isn't the sport for me. Two horses dead are two horses too many for me.....:(

[2016 RoyalCrown KTug]

I was watching the live footage, which although is not like being there, was very... up close and personal. Even though I've been studying these falls, I have never seen one as horrific as this. :no: I was sick to my stomach.


Glad to see you're still studying them, as horrible as they are. have you come up with anything ??? not to hijack the thread at all, just curious because obviously something does need to be done!!!

Gillian

[NRB]

Rotational falls on video; Kim Severson and Dan at Badminton or Burghley. Olympic games Atlanta or Sydney. I know that I've seen others out there.

When Kim and Dan fell it was b/c they took 5 very looong strides inbetween 2 fences and just got to close to the base of the 2nd fence. Everyone else did 5 normal sized strides.

Jingles, best wishes and hugs for Laine.

[tommygirl]

It always been known as a high risk sport (at least for the amount of time I have been on the planet). It has also been compared with Nascar and Bull Riding.

It is a shame that making a mistake can cost someone their own or their horses life, and I think finding a way to reduce this risk is vital. There have always been accidents and fatalities of horses and injured/killed riders as well (this does not make it right, just a fact).

I saw Laine's fall. The horse appeared to run straight into the jump, without an effort to take off. He was galloping fast and it did not look like he was asked to balance. The jump was not a galloping fence (in my opinion), it was meant to be a slow down fence to prepare for the combination that came next. I am so relieved Laine will be ok. It will be very hard for her to deal with this accident and I hope she can recover quickly.

As for the other accident, it was terrible as well. The rider was in trouble at the fence before the sunken road, did the sunken road anyway (very scary to watch), and crashed at a fence you cannot ride backwards to (the footbridge) after the sunken road. It was bad judgment, and I am sorry for her on the loss of her horse.

Rolex is no place to school, and I am in complete agreement with Denny that the **** should be a group of committee chosen competitors - An Invitational. And bring back the ***, maybe even a **!

I remember when Rolex also ran a HT!

[Calhoun]

I am not an eventer, but have been to the Rolex many, many times. If the powers that be do not change the rules for course design, rider ability and equine fitness 3-Day Eventing will be known as the Indianapolis 500 of the horse world, where people come to watch and wait for the crash and burn. At least race car drivers have choice, horses do not.

[SR Rider]

People DO want to see the crashes/aftermath...sick as that is...I was a fence judge on the other side of the course and we started hearing on our radios of people on the galloping lane going to fence 25 on their way to see the crash at fence 5 (they were close in proximity; the crowd was so uncontrollable (and am I to assume most of them were horse people who have been to Rolex before and know the protocol) that Karen OConnor had to be flagged down and held on course. It's lucky we didn't have another crash and tragedy thereinvolving horse, rider, spectators...who were you people blocking Karen anyway!

[RugBug]

The whole thing is just tragic. Accidents do happen...but the 'it cost too much' argument about frangible pins was sickening to me. I know that they can't be used on all types of jumps, but dear god, for $70 dollars you could possibly save the life of a horse or rider? Who thinks that is too much money? Ask for people to sponsor the jump and buy the pins that way. I'm a hunter/eq rider, have VERY little to do with eventing other than being surrounded by eventers and dabbling occassionally...and I would sponsor one. I'm pretty sure organizers could EASILY get the money for the pins without even opening their wallets.


If a few dogs, and handlers, died every year at Westminster (their "****"), most humans, dog owners or not, would find that appalling and call for a complete and utter stop to the event(s) that caused their death.


If you're going to make a comparison, at least make a legitmate one. :rolleyes:

[c_expresso]

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on the BB, congrats.

You do not even KNOW great horsemanship until you ride an event horse, ESPECIALLY an upper level one. It takes a partnership much greater than any other discipline IMO, because of the diversity of training involved.

Jaime died last year at Jersey because of circumstances totally out of Lainey's hands. A friend that was there said that when Jaime went down, Laine's cry made your blood run cold. But life goes on. When you lose a best friend you can't sit around for a year and mope. Laine is a professional rier, she has horses to ride, shows to go to, people to teach. Her dream was to be on the Team and that was finally becoming a reality with Frodo.

Just because someone can move on, and still have dreams after a tragedy, does not mean that they have no horsemanship or are overcome with human greed.

if you search "laine horse frodo", it's the only vid that comes up.

It's very tragic, yes. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this next statement.... but what was a rider who had a horse die LAST YEAR of something that sounds a lot like human greed (horse getting too hot and dieing) doing riding again this year at rolex? Maybe her horsemanship wasn't high enough to be competeing at that level.

Question? How would jumps that can be knocked down keep these fall from causing as much injury? Or would we still see horses being put down?

[devcubber]

If you're going to make a comparison, at least make a legitmate one.

The comparison I'm making is one between participants who voluntarily sign up for this sport, and the animals that willingly do so much for them - horses do not voluntarily sign up. I think it's more legitimate, from the point of view of the horse, than comparing it to Formula One, or NASCAR racing. Obviously, dog showing is not such a dangerous sport; but if it were, and dogs and/or handlers were dying with regularity due to an "acceptable risk", wouldn't people be up in arms and crying for a halt and complete dissection of the sport to figure out how to stop the danger, particularly to the dogs who did not choose to be shown?

There is inherent danger any time you are even standing next to a horse. Of course accidents are going to happen from the teeniest levels all the way to the very top. Those are accidents. What we're all scratching our heads about is how to eliminate/lessen this increase of what is (now) repeatedly being called the "acceptable risks of this sport" - not "freak accidents". Yes, you can injure yourself playing soccer, hockey, football, etc. But look at the studies done to reduce those risks of injuries. It's a personal choice to play any sport, whilst being informed and accepting of all the risks involved. Horses don't get that choice, and we owe it to them to find out how to eliminate/reduce the risks.

[Platinum Equestrian]

2003. When the people (wealthy socialites) guiding the sport of H/J decided that their vision of glory and power was to be shared (forced upon) with the rest of us (slaves) for the sake of international respect (lining their pockets).

Are you for real? What exactly are you speaking of?

[Catersun]

I never said she had no horsemans ship.. I'm suggesting that maybe a 23 yo doesn't have ENOUGH horsemanship yet to be competeing at rolex. I think it spits in the face of the elite riders that can get it done to have people there that aren't ready.

I can't find in her site or buck davidson's site where she competed frodo at advanced. I would think she MUST have somewhere. Please! point it out to me. I saw that she competed one of her other horses at advanced. Or maybe it wasn't that she wasn't ready... maybe it was that the horse wasn't ready...

The horse is dead. It is fair to ask questions. If we don't, others will, and I would really like eventing to be around when I DO have a horse that can make it.

If you didn't know the rider... cause I don't.. wouldn't you be asking questions like what was she doing there? She crashed and burned at the fifth jump.... it's wasn't a complex with one and two stride combos. It wasn't cause she was at the end of the course adn the horse was fatigued.

Someone on another thread said that -Just because it is your dream to ride at rolex, doesn't mean you should be there.

I think we seriously need to take a look at the riders that should not have been there, and decide what traits make them NOT ready for it, so that we can use that information to identify other riders who are not yet ready so that they don't have a chance to get hurt like that.

It may not be "her fault" but someone needs to take some action to prevent future loss of life.

[2ndyrgal]

Findeight, do you really think that a horse that gallops around a **** course isn't a willing participant? Do you really believe that? Does he fully understand the risks? Of course not, but those horses' are much more "willing" on XC than they are being restrained in the dressage arena. This is possibly the first statement you've made that make me question your knowledge. You can't beat a race horse and make him want to win either. Show horses are different breeds. Really.

[c_expresso]

Laine has ridden three advanced mounts. Eight St. James Place is her horse that died last year, who she took to Rolex twice. She had done a few CCI***s on Frodo. She has a new advanced mount that she has trained up herself also, Anthony Patch, who has done a few events at advanced and two CIC***s and was headed to Jersey this spring for the CCI***.

Lainey has ridden advanced many, many, many times on several mounts for a few years now and it is unfair to say she was not ready for Rolex.

I never said she had no horsemans ship.. I'm suggesting that maybe a 23 yo doesn't have ENOUGH horsemanship yet to be competeing at rolex. I think it spits in the face of the elite riders that can get it done to have people there that aren't ready.

I can't find in her site or buck davidson's site where she competed frodo at advanced. I would think she MUST have somewhere. Please! point it out to me. I saw that she competed one of her other horses at advanced. Or maybe it wasn't that she wasn't ready... maybe it was that the horse wasn't ready...

The horse is dead. It is fair to ask questions. If we don't, others will, and I would really like eventing to be around when I DO have a horse that can make it.

If you didn't know the rider... cause I don't.. wouldn't you be asking questions like what was she doing there? She crashed and burned at the fifth jump.... it's wasn't a complex with one and two stride combos. It wasn't cause she was at the end of the course adn the horse was fatigued.

Someone on another thread said that -Just because it is your dream to ride at rolex, doesn't mean you should be there.

I think we seriously need to take a look at the riders that should not have been there, and decide what traits make them NOT ready for it, so that we can use that information to identify other riders who are not yet ready so that they don't have a chance to get hurt like that.

It may not be "her fault" but someone needs to take some action to prevent future loss of life.

[hookedoneventing]

Catersun, it isnt hard to find a horses record in eventing:

http://useventing.com/competitions.php?id=831&horse_id=84995

[TB or not TB?]

Glad to see you're still studying them, as horrible as they are. have you come up with anything ??? not to hijack the thread at all, just curious because obviously something does need to be done!!!

Gillian

The short answer is... Yes. I'm working with some truly remarkable people, and ideas are freely flowing. We need more data still, but understanding the rotational fall was the start.

On that note, I would prefer to see fellow COTHers not bashing or second guessing the incidents, but instead putting their collectively brilliant minds to work designing jumps that will prevent rotational falls. I will start a thread to this effect if people are interested.

Catersun, Laine rode two horses at Rolex, and the first had a gorgeous double clear round. Additionally, while we are quick to judge, remember that we are waiting for the necropsy. There always could be something else at play that we didn't know about. Frodo may have had a heart attack prior to the fence for all we know.

Lastly, I don't understand why people keep saying the situation is being made light of, and that eventers are "ok" with the deaths. What planet do you live on!? I would think the numerous threads of outrage and sorrow would indicate that eventers are NOT okay with it.

/grouchy soapbox

[c_expresso]

I don't think anyone is bashing the incidents. Everyone feels horrible for the riders and their families. But we must analyze potential "whys" as to why these accidents happened to prevent them.

The short answer is... Yes. I'm working with some truly remarkable people, and ideas are freely flowing. We need more data still, but understanding the rotational fall was the start.

On that note, I would prefer to see fellow COTHers not bashing or second guessing the incidents, but instead putting their collectively brilliant minds to work designing jumps that will prevent rotational falls. I will start a thread to this effect if people are interested.

Catersun, Laine rode two horses at Rolex, and the first had a gorgeous double clear round. Additionally, while we are quick to judge, remember that we are waiting for the necropsy. There always could be something else at play that we didn't know about. Frodo may have had a heart attack prior to the fence for all we know.

Lastly, I don't understand why people keep saying the situation is being made light of, and that eventers are "ok" with the deaths. What planet do you live on!? I would think the numerous threads of outrage and sorrow would indicate that eventers are NOT okay with it.

/grouchy soapbox

[SLR]

It looks like she had done 15 advanced with no XC jumping penalities at 11 of them on Frodo. How many is enough? Think she was more than ready. This kind of criticism makes me sick. At some point you have to make the jump to the next level, Waylon and Kelly Sult did beautifully on the XC, with not a lot of experience. Should they not have been allowed to ride? You can't cite lack of experience for Ralph and Darren. There is something severely wrong, but I'm not sure it's lack of experience.

[c_expresso]

It looks like she had done 15 advanced with no XC jumping penalities at 11 of them on Frodo. How many is enough? Think she was more than ready. This kind of criticism makes me sick. At some point you have to make the jump to the next level, Waylon and Kelly Sult did beautifully on the XC, with not a lot of experience. Should they not have been allowed to ride? You can't cite lack of experience for Ralph and Darren. There is something severely wrong, but I'm not sure it's lack of experience.

No one is saying she was not ready or she should not have been riding, we are just point out she made a mistake. Humans make mistakes.

And now we need to figure out how these mistakes can be prevented from being fatal.

[Painted Wings]

A fair comparison to this is the Iditarod, not the Westminster. I don't know about this year but in past years there were dogs that died on the trail every year in spite of frequent veterinary checks etc. I think the deaths have gone down considerably due to more know how on how to feed and care for the dogs as well as stepped up veterinary checks. I don't know what needs to be done here. I was an outrider at the basket fence in the morning. After watching the first three horses go around clear I was even wondering if the course was too easy. The basket was on the course last year with no problems that I know of. I wonder if it was the afternoon light or what. Clearly there were more problems in the afternoon.

[retreadeventer]

What if 1 or 2 football players died during the SuperBowl every year? .

Well...they don't die...but not because they don't get injured....they just don't feel it! Not the drugs they can play on. No horse could compete with what a football player can inject legally before a game! And football players die all the time. Most don't last into their 50's. Playing at that level leaves them crippled for life!

[Fake]

The whole thing is just tragic. Accidents do happen...but the 'it cost too much' argument about frangible pins was sickening to me. I know that they can't be used on all types of jumps, but dear god, for $70 dollars you could possibly save the life of a horse or rider? Who thinks that is too much money? Ask for people to sponsor the jump and buy the pins that way. I'm a hunter/eq rider, have VERY little to do with eventing other than being surrounded by eventers and dabbling occassionally...and I would sponsor one. I'm pretty sure organizers could EASILY get the money for the pins without even opening their wallets.



If you're going to make a comparison, at least make a legitmate one. :rolleyes:


Hey - where do I sign up to send the first $70? I can't believe that cost is the issue! C'mon - even if they cost $700 per jump, it's still a huge bargain considering the obvious outcome. There's what, less than 40 individual jumps (including all option jumps) on a course...last time I calculated math in my head, that equaled a whopping $2800.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

IWWH - just a correction... their Prelim is our Novice, our Open/Pre-Novice is midway between their Training and Prelim.


Thanks but I do understand how the levels go, having spent plenty of time in the USA, I was just simplifying things ;-) Also, prelim courses in the USA are actually on par with our pre novice (even tho technically they are supposed to be the same as our novice).

At the end of the day our kids at champs rode way too freakin fast. The winner is on a 6yr old horse for goodness sake, and galloped round running coming in 25 odd secs under time WITH an option taken. Way way way too fast.

[NRB]

[QUOTE=c_expresso;3174659]No one is saying she was not ready or she should not have been riding, we are just point out she made a mistake. Humans make mistakes.

And now we need to figure out how these mistakes can be prevented from being fatal.[/QUOTE

Actually the post you are responding to seems to be directed to Canterun. Canterun appears to be wondering if Laine was too young and inexperienced thus some how at fault for her fall. I personally do not believe that to be true. No xc penalties at 11 out of 15 advanced runs isn't exactly a shabby record. I don't personally know Laine or her mother despite the fact that her mom sends me emails about every other week. I got on her list when I indicated interest in a clinic. I digress....anyway point being that Laine is sort of a local (we have the same farrier) and I've never heard a bad word said about her horsemanship or ability.

[staceyk]

Hi,

The difference between the am and pm rides was pretty dramatic. Can anyone explain that?

In the course walk, Kim S and another eventer (we walked in late) said that the course was more forgiving than in previous years. I figured the course designers were trying to avoid a serious injury and more controversy. In the am session, people were saying the course was too easy, too many people were going clean!

I saw Quiet Man's start from the gate, and he looked so calm it was a little alarming, the other horses had the "fire in the belly" and he just looked like he was going into the hunter ring, happy and calm, but not hot to go. Their ride was very deliberate, and sticky in places, but when I watched the video it looked better than watching him live -- different perspective I guess.

I know some posters are asking that we not criticize the riders in this thread, and I think they're right. I've been very troubled by this weekend, though, and would like to be able to understand what happened.

The absence of pins is baffling. Could it be more of an issue of redesigning the obstacles than just adding pins?

[wabadou]

Hi,

The difference between the am and pm rides was pretty dramatic. Can anyone explain that?

?

I was thinking the same thing when I was watching the live feed on Saturday!
It seemed like everyone was having a fairly good ride, some refusals, etc but no major injuries. About 1/2 way through I was thinking, Thank God, things are going really well and then all h*ll started to break loose..

[La Gringa]

The video on Youtube has been pulled. It says copywright problems.

Probably for the best..

[RumoursFollow]

That video was not nearly as bad as the video of the death of the Korean rider on cross country that has been up on YouTube for some time and is still there. Just because you have to sign up and say you're 18 to view it doesnt make it any better. I dont remember how I came across that but there is NO mistaking how brutal it was.. horrifying.

I am going to refrain from comments about eventing in general right now as I dont feel its the time- other than to say that my concerns about allowing my daughter to event some day should she choose that path have gone from great to out of control with recent events. Something has to change.

[VCT]

People need to make SOME effort to educate themselves before coming on here asking questions that imply negative things about riders who have suffered horrific tragedies.

It's not too hard to look up a rider's record on the usea site.

For anyone who might be questioning Laine's horsemanship or whatever else you might think of you need to just back off. Not only is it totally tasteless at this point in time. It's also ridiculous. She was a very experienced horsewoman and rider. Frodo lacked for nothing and I mean nothing. Kelly was stabled next to her at Fair Hill last fall and I saw firsthand how well Frodo was cared for. He was loved beyond words ands treated like royalty.

Laine and her mother are two of the nicest people I have ever had the pleasure to meet at a horse show and I seriously hope that neither of them ever see some of the posts on here.

[J. Turner]

Maybe thisis a stupid idea since no one responded to it on another thread. Why not make the face of these jumps with "give". Special effects departments can make anything look real. In 3:10 to Yuma they made pretty good replica of a very heavy and valuable Gatling gun out of rubber for the stagecoach crash scene. Get the airbrush out!


Would making the front rail of some of these bigger jumps out of a rubber/giving type material make a huge difference? Think of a 65' boat docking and the 12" rubber bumpers taking the impact. Couldn't have the face of the flower box been made out of PVC trellis and a rim of rubber painted to look authentic? Then it would've collapsed. Not too expensive to keep some trellis on hand. The big logs of the Hammock, footbridge, etc. could be made of a boat bumper (or even car bumpers???) material carved and painted to look authentic. Don't you think that there is a material out there that could slow the impact of the horse? The rider might go flying but at least the danger for the horse wouldn't be as great and the rider would avoid being crushed.

[up-at-5]

I totally agree. After this weekend's tragedies, I am seriously thinking this isn't the sport for me. Two horses dead are two horses too many for me.....:(


Me too. I'm not bashing eventing at all.....shit happens and blah blah blah, but it's not the sport for me. I won't be spectating ever again. I'll stick to the local hunter shows and relaxing hacks on my beloved horses.

[Ritazza]

As a dressage rider, we (dressage riders) *are* taught that the horse comes first no matter what. Dressage is an integral part of the three day. Where was that lost?


Because obviously us eventers don't care about our horses at all or the trillions of hours of sweat and pain that we put into painstakingly caring for them instead of letting the trainer hop on and do it for us... sorry, that was bitter.

I'm sorry to say I snorted in disgust when I read that. Clearly eventers are all our to destroy our horses and they're not important to us at all....

[LexInVA]

Maybe thisis a stupid idea since no one responded to it on another thread. Why not make the face of these jumps with "give". Special effects departments can make anything look real. In 3:10 to Yuma they made pretty good replica of a very heavy and valuable Gatling gun out of rubber for the stagecoach crash scene. Get the airbrush out!


Would making the front rail of some of these bigger jumps out of a rubber/giving type material make a huge difference? Think of a 65' boat docking and the 12" rubber bumpers taking the impact. Couldn't have the face of the flower box been made out of PVC trellis and a rim of rubber painted to look authentic? Then it would've collapsed. Not too expensive to keep some trellis on hand. The big logs of the Hammock, footbridge, etc. could be made of a boat bumper (or even car bumpers???) material carved and painted to look authentic. Don't you think that there is a material out there that could slow the impact of the horse? The rider might go flying but at least the danger for the horse wouldn't be as great and the rider would avoid being crushed.

I actually looked into that myself using foam (the kind used in Hollywood set and prop construction) and it seems suitable for the job but it's hard as hell to get because there aren't many sources or artisans outside of where the studios are. The prices can also be a little steep depending on what exactly it is being made and the wear and tear that comes from being outdoors are also an issue.

[devcubber]

A fair comparison to this is the Iditarod, not the Westminster.

Thanks Leslie, that is a much better comparison!!!! Thanks for getting my "drift"!:)

[riderboy]

I think it should be left up. I also saw the unedited footage of Amy Tryon which can be purchased on CD-it's unedited XC footage from last year. Amys video is just shocking and anyone who sees it from the moment Le Samurai breaks down till the end should be utterly disgusted. Frodos video is also shocking but in a different way. It's simply horrific. The important thing here is to LEARN something from them!

[Moesha]

If they had walked away from this accident then maybe something could be said for keeping it up...I had a fall where my horse flipped over a jump..but I walked away..well was carted away with months of rehab to come....but thankfully my horse was uninjured....I watched that video and still do from time to time..as a reminder now and as a lesson right after as to what I did wrong at the time....BUT if my horse had died and I had sustained the kind of injuries this young woman has...I doubt I would ever want to see the video...and if I did it would be my personal choice to do so....this is a free country and if someone takes the video and wants to post it then fine...but I personally don't see how it would serve as a training tool to anyone other than the person effected...even the most blatant error or visible cause...it is too relative of an accident to truly be called something for all to learn by..we know as riders the mistakes we readily point out in front of us and then readily go out and make on our own horses..a video like this not set up to teach would do little in my opninion other than to serve as a video of a tragic accident.

[beeblebrox]

I have mixed feelings about the video. I saw one fall in person (Quiet Man) and the other on the live feed on a monitor at Rolex (frodo)

I am assuming the powers that be at USEF, USEA and FEI watch all these types of videos to a great degree and from every angle to help ascertain everything from mistakes of rider, horse, course design and sheer fate.

Have a problem though if you GOOGLE or search you tube you have hundreds of videos from Rolex including other falls that are not taken down for copyright infringement. ONLY those of Quiet Man and Frodo are pulled off. LOOK of it is infringement pull them all off ok. CAUSE it looks to others outside out sport as if a DIRTY secret is being swept under the rug.

[moonriverfarm]

For educational purposes with a few of my not so careful young riders I'd like to see the video. It is nowhere to be found so if anyone has a link please PM me.

[In The Gate]

moonriverfarm (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/member.php?u=94968) -- there are plenty of other videos of rotational falls on YouTube if you cannot find that one.

There is a particular one (though I DON'T recommend watching it with young riders) from the Pan-Am games in 2006 where a horse fell directly on the rider's head and upper body that will haunt me for the rest of my life. :cry::cry: Talk about horrific.

[moonriverfarm]

Becasue these kids were following Rolex this year I wanted this particular video, and many of you have said it is still out there.
Wonder if Carr Hughes will include it in the DVD package they sell?

[LexInVA]

At this point, you'd have an easier time finding the elusive Britney Spears sex tape than getting another shot at the clip of Laine and Frodo going over the basket and I don't think we'll ever see the footage that CHP shot of that. It's not in the interests of those who have a say in it to put it out there and we'll just have to hope that something positive comes from this disaster.

[moonriverfarm]

They included Amy Tryon's disasterous ride last year....why not these falls? Horses all had to be put down....

[RugBug]

They included Amy Tryon's disasterous ride last year....why not these falls? Horses all had to be put down....

Le Samurai wasn't mortally wounded on course. He was put down due to complications. It's similar to the Royal Kaliber situation. Anyone who wants to can still watch him breakdown.

I find your insistance on watching the Frodo footage interesting. If you really did want to see a rotational fall for educational purposes, just about any footage would do. As In The Gate pointed out, you have plenty examples to choose from. Why not call it what it is...curiosity.

I'll admit I was curious. I watched. I cried. I was horrified. Was there anything to learn? Um, sure. Don't go too fast. Seriously, you can't tell what really happened anyway. You can't tell if the rider just thought it was going to be a fly fence. You can't tell if the rider tried to check the horse but he was feeling good and didn't listen. You can't tell if he slipped. Etc. All you can see is a fast horse that doesn't get his legs up at all.

[galwaybay]

As a dressage rider, we (dressage riders) *are* taught that the horse comes first no matter what. Dressage is an integral part of the three day. Where was that lost?

Is that why so many dressage riders don't like to turn their horses out - because they know horses come first, no matter what ?

There were some freak and horrible accidents - I'm glad they are not easily accessible - and I applaud the USEA and USEF for wanting/asking/imploring everyone to help address these concerns.

[clpony]

:yes: So true VCT.