What would you do?

[alterbreeding]

If you knew someone had done a "2-for-1" breeding. As in split the dose of semen that was sent for one mare. One stud fee was paid & the SO is none the wiser. Both mares caught, carried & delivered live, healthy foals. Unfortunately I know for a fact both these babies are by the stallion is question & not the stallion that the MO is saying one is by as I was there when both mares were bred. I am not sure if the MO is planning on registering/inspecting the second foal, but it is for sale & being marketed as a baby by a stallion available only frozen. The registry the MO uses does not DNA test.

What would you do? Would you tell the SO or would you butt out & decide that it's none of your business? SO's how would you handle this situation?

Using an alter because I am unsure if the MO reads this forum. I know the SO does. There are others in the barn that know of this situation as well.

[Dressage-ryder]

I would tell the SO.... I can't stand dishonest horse people and to split a breeding and get two foals and claim that they aren't by the SOs stallion is the lowest of lows. People who do that will hopefully get what they have coming one day. It is hard enough for stallions owners- having mare owners splitting doses and not paying is just wrong. I would feel dirty for knowing such a person.
Was there no contract stating only one mare to be bred? Did the vet split the doses? Wasn't there a form for the vet to sign stating only one mare was bred???

[rideagoldenpony]

I'd most definitely tell the SO.

Definitely.

They may or may not choose to do anything about it, but as a SO, I would want to know.

I had a client the first year we stood our stallion at stud that I suspect did something similar. And when someone recently contacted me about a foal by our stallion that I had never heard about, it added some credence to my thinking....

I'd want to know. That is NOT COOL.

[alterbreeding]

Was there no contract stating only one mare to be bred? Did the vet split the doses? Wasn't there a form for the vet to sign stating only one mare was bred???

As far as I know, the contract is for 1 mare. MO does her own inseminations. I am not sure if this SO requires the vet to sign off or not. SO is well known & stands more than 1 stallion.

I am just not sure what to do as I do not want to create friction in the barn, yet I think the MO needs to come clean as do others. Foals are about 6 weeks & both are fillies. The fact they are both fillies is what really concerns me since they could be future breeding stock. I think that if they were colts & were gelded prior to being sold, I would not have such a huge issue with it.

[Dressage-ryder]

Fillies have DNA taken when put in the studbooks... If the mare owner was smart she would deal with this now not later. When it comes out that this isn't the correct breeding I am sure the buyer is going to be less than pleased.
Given that the SO reads this forum and has more than one stallion I think I have a hint of who it is. If I am correct, this MO is taking advantage of one of the most important and helpful SOs ( IMO) we have right now. Shame on that MO. Again, I say tell the SO- You will be a better person for it.

Not a fun situation to be in the middle of :(

[alterbreeding]

DR, the registry the MO uses does not DNA mares when they are inspected as breeding stock as long as the owner has the papers & they match the mare. I presented my mare & foal to them 3 years ago & they did not do any DNA. I also attended an inspection of theirs this past year as a spectator & yet again, no DNA.

No, not a fun situation at all. What about telling the SO anonomously? Since multiple people in the barn know (and she has admitted to all of us) it's not like she can point fingers....:confused:

[Dressage-ryder]

Wow... That sucks about the DNA. I guess it works to the MOs benefit. I think you should just tell the SO... If more than one person knows there is no way to point fingers. Also, do you really care what someone like that thinks of you?!?!? At least you will gain the respect of the SO and your fellow barn mates..

If you PM me and confirm the SO is who I think it is- I would happily tell :)

I hate seeing nice people get taken...

[Galileo1998]

I would tell the SO. Basically, this person is a thief, and has stolen from the SO, they have a right to know.

[pintofoal]

This happens a lot more then you would think :mad:

I know about a number of times this has happened to me and the breeder got caught -- just image the numbers I don't know about!

It's common practice amongst very COMMON people. It's despicable and really hurts the breeding community both financially and ethically. Funny thing is two of the folks who really standout in my head who did get busted are currently stallion owners and on top of that got really good deals for the breeding they did buy! It really makes you wonder about folks.

Our contract is for a single mare, our breed cert is for one mare, which MUST be signed off by a vet, but believe me it still happens. Vets can't police their clients and it is easy enough for the breeder to say oh this is from another stallion, or whatever, sperm all looks the same.

I would tell the stallion owner, drop them an anonymous PT if they are on the forum here, or email them, but let them know it is only fair to them, the potential future owner of said foal and the stallion, should get credit for their offspring. As a stallion owner I would want to know.

[Ladybug Hill]

I can't think of a single registry that doesn't use DNA except the VPBA and maybe the Florida equivalent.

So I am thinking a pony stallion owned by a multiple stallion stallion owner? Either in VA or in Florida? And nice/reputable? That should narrow it down quite a bit!

[Molly Malone]

Am I being especially dim (hypothetical, no need to answer;)) but what stallion is she going to say the foal IS by? Because she can't get a breeding certificate from another SO, can she? How can you turn up at an inspection/register a foal with no breeding certificate? Or is she saying the foal is by another stallion that she has got a certificate for (and thus must have paid the stud fee for)?

I don't think I'm devious enough to see how to do this. Or lucky enough to have two mares ready to breed at the right time! Or see the point of it - if you sell the foal, doesn't every buyer contact the SO just for, well, I don't know, politeness? Curiosity? To check bloodlines? It would ruin the breeders reputation immediately if the SO then said 'Wait. What mare?'

[Erin Pittman]

I'm wondering the same as Molly....how is she going to explain away this baby's sire? I bred my mare to pintofoal's Sempatico in 2004 - took my resulting colt to the RPSI inspection - they don't require DNA (at least I was never asked), but I *did* have to have the Breeders report signed by Liz and by the inseminating vet and me. Liz only sent one of those. Not that I would have ever even dreamed of splitting the doses she sent (tempting as it would be to have two of those spectacular babies), I just don't see how it could be done and not have anyone know about it!

[Ladybug Hill]

I didn't realize that RPSI did not require DNA. If this is true, then all credibility of this registry has just gone out the window for me. I know that PHR is not very presitigious but at least I can prove bloodline through DNA testing. Honestly, I think it is irresponsible for any registry to NOT require DNA testing at this point. It is not expensive in the scheme of things.

[pintofoal]

Am I being especially dim (hypothetical, no need to answer;)) but what stallion is she going to say the foal IS by? Because she can't get a breeding certificate from another SO, can she? How can you turn up at an inspection/register a foal with no breeding certificate? Or is she saying the foal is by another stallion that she has got a certificate for (and thus must have paid the stud fee for)?

I don't think I'm devious enough to see how to do this. Or lucky enough to have two mares ready to breed at the right time! Or see the point of it - if you sell the foal, doesn't every buyer contact the SO just for, well, I don't know, politeness? Curiosity? To check bloodlines? It would ruin the breeders reputation immediately if the SO then said 'Wait. What mare?'

How the thiefs handle getting a cert or whatever, who knows, if they steal, what would stop them for forging etc. - they could say it was lost and ask for another, forge one, had a frozen semen breeding that didn't work (with no LFG) and use that cert. Not care if the foal is registered, the list goes on.

Thief might ask for more then one shipment (not unusual to have to breed a mare more then once) Mares often do cycle together, some have their mares on chemicals to bring them in.

As far as don't the buyers contacting the stallion owner? - rarely

Many of the registries do DNA, but as far as I know it is NOT parent verifications is it? ISR/OLD NA doesn't if the foal is at mare side. So there are ways around that too. The only registries I can think of who absolutely do parent verification with the DNA is the Jockey Club, GOV and the Dutch use too (they still might, but I haven't worked with them in years so don't know for certain). ISR/OLD NA does if the foal is a year or older. But most all of the registries that do DNA are just recording not necessarily doing parent verification.

Unfortunately Molly and Erin, there are devious people out there, whether they feel entitled, don't care or are just plain dishonest who knows but it does happen.:no:

[Tasker]

It happens far too often. Bust them one way or another. As a SO I would be annoyed and there ends up being very little that can be done other than blocking registration papers. Ask me how I know... :sigh:

[avezan]

I had no idea this was as common as it seems to be. I can understand someone splitting a dose and getting an unregistered foal (umm..I can understand how it can be done, not understand the ethics of the person doing it!!), but count me in as not understanding how she will register the foal under a different sire, dna or not? I have only worked with ISR. They do not require DNA for foals at their dam's side, only for foals without their dams. The reasoning being (I'm assuming) that the mare will match the registration papers, and the mare's name and reg. number will be on the breeding certificate from the SO. So how would the MO get a breeding certificate on the fake sire? I also can't believe this MO has admitted to this to several people at the barn! Definitely tell the SO. Even if she can't do anything about this foal, she can certainly not deal with this person again, and possibly warn others.

[Erin Pittman]

I didn't realize that RPSI did not require DNA. If this is true, then all credibility of this registry has just gone out the window for me. I know that PHR is not very presitigious but at least I can prove bloodline through DNA testing. Honestly, I think it is irresponsible for any registry to NOT require DNA testing at this point. It is not expensive in the scheme of things.

Mare had the colt at her side in the inspection. She has some unique markings listed on her papers (such as a scar on her right forearm, etc.) - she matched the papers. DNA parent verification is a pretty new thing (relatively speaking), so I'm not surprised when it isn't required at an inspection. Same mare bred to a Trakehner stallion for a 2007 colt - ATA *did* require DNA verification. In fact, the mare was old enough that I had to have her DNA verified before I could have the colt's done. Which reminds me....I *still* haven't gotten that colt's papers. Going to have to send the ATA yet another email. :sigh:

[DownYonder]

Good Lord, I had no idea that neither RPSI nor ISR/ONA do parentage verification on foals. That is really pretty stunning news.

Oldenburg (GOV) had an instance last year where DNA results showed that a frozen semen foal was not by the stallion the mare owner THOUGHT she had bred to. Turns out that the repro vet had used the wrong frozen in the mare and no one was the wiser until ROUTINE parentage verification revealed the error. If this had been an RPSI or ISR/ONA foal, I guess everyone would still be none the wiser. :eek:

And DNA analysis is not all that new - Oldenburg has been doing it in N.A. since at least 2000. The registry will not process registration papers until DNA results prove the foal's sire and dam.

[pintofoal]

Thinking about it, the most common ploy these "bad" breeders use is the old we will fess up after the foal is born plot. Goes like this: "OH guess what, we have two LOVELY foals by your stallion, now I know we only booked/paid for one, but we figured we had plenty of semen, why let the extra go to waste? So we used it on Old Bessy thinking she'd never get in foal, but she did!, isn't that great! Now what kind of discount do we get for multiple bookings?" This ploy isn't much better then the ones who steal the whole thing out right. The double fess up breeder, is still pretty darn dishonest if you ask me. They figure well if old Bessy doesn't carry to term or the other mare slips and Bessy doesn't then we just say Oh we switched mares at the last minute, only one foal and no ones the wiser, but if two are produced well then they have the nerve to try and get a discount for multiple mares! Yeap have had this happen many times!

As you can tell this is a subject that really :mad: irks me

[Edgewood]

AHS does DNA verification as well. I do know a well known breeder who bred by frozen (which looked completely dead on thawing) and then later bred the mare with her own AHS stallion (fresh) because she thought that there was no way that the frozen could establish a pregnancy. When the foal is born, she sent in the foal hair sample and the ASH said that the DNA sample indicated that the sire was the frozen stallion and not from the fresh stallion (boy was she surprised because the frozen semen looked completely dead on microscopic examination).

[Silly Mommy]

I love this forum because it does open one's eyes! As I have never offered frozen until now, it never dawned on me that people would do such things. I guess I will have to work on that frozen contract!!!

Breathe Liz!!! Remember, for every thief, there are conscientous breeders who call you from a horse show to ask if they can sub a mare because the mare at home that was about to be bred, just dropped dead in her field (yes, Liz got this call from a hysterical me). And there are EVEN breeders that send at least annual updates on their babies by your stallion(s).

We can only set boundaries to protect ourselves, there are always those that will step over the line. I figure,"what goes around comes around" and they will get theirs. As "House" says: "People Lie." LOVE that show!

To the OP - as a SO, I would like to know and wouldn't bring you into it. I have a vested interest in the babies produced by my stallion.

[Maddie]

I agree, you should tell the stallion owner, it's the right thing to do. Do it anonymously if your concerned about repercussions in your barn.

[showjumpers66]

Several of the frozen semen dealers don't issue breeding certificates and leave it up to the mare owner to create one.

Am I being especially dim (hypothetical, no need to answer;)) but what stallion is she going to say the foal IS by? Because she can't get a breeding certificate from another SO, can she? How can you turn up at an inspection/register a foal with no breeding certificate? Or is she saying the foal is by another stallion that she has got a certificate for (and thus must have paid the stud fee for)?'

[Cielo Azure]

As far as I know, the contract is for 1 mare.

Hold on, you are not 100% sure? But you are posting this publically? Is there enough info here to pin down who you are and who the person is by someone on this board? hmmm. See, if I hadn't SEEN the contract and I didn't know for sure, I would probably mind my own business. Or I might probe around a bit for more details before I posted or notified anyone.

See, I don't go around talking about my business or my contracts or what I am doing. It is my businesss. I like to think that people assume that I am honest (as I am). So, first, I ask you, (not in a mean way) are you 100% sure and that you aren't making any assumptions.

Yes, if does happen. We all know it and it sucks. Just make sure...

[VirginiaBred]

How can the mare owner get the other foal registered with out a stallion breeding certificate?

[talloaks]

FYI, ISR/OLDNA does require DNA parent verification for foals produced with frozen semen. I don't know when they started since my first frozen semen foals were foaled in 2005.

[sid]

Many people don't care about foal registration, especially those breeding for the performance (non-breeding) market. This situation has happened to me also and it's very troublesome to know there are a few Argosy or Boleem youngsters who were essentially "freebees".

As pintofoal said...this is not all that uncommon and is quite aggravating for SOs. Perhaps that is why we can get grumpy at times when paperwork is lacking pre-breeding and immediately upon insemination (wink!).

I had someone call me last year to say they had purchased a 4 yr. old mare who was thrilled she was sired by Argosy. Had no papers. They wanted to find out more about him. Gave me the dam's name and seller's name (broker). No such breeding (at least in my records).

Now that's REALLY aggravating...selling an unregistered horse that is supposedly sired by your stallion. The girl could have looked like a mule, and my stallion will take the credit (egad!).

Every once in awhile I google horse sales ads to see if one of my stallions is listed as "sire" --then check my records of mares bred under contract. Have found a couple but could never track down the buyer or the seller.

And this is the reason the JC will not register horses conceived by AI...can't say I blame them in such a big $$ sport where bloodlines are sacred.

[Sugarbrook]

Being a breeder of Cross Bred Ponies I am sure you realize, for me, how this could come about. Say the customer tells me, or the vet tells me, "we need two doses". Ok, we most surely will try to do as they ask, if possible. What happens to those "two" doses is out of our hands at that point. We just have to hope the customer and their vet are honorable and straight forward people who would not think about """"Screwing"" me.

I am sure it could happen. I hope it hasn't.

Recently I bred one of my best brood mares to another Cloth'ers pony. She sent Two baggies. We only used one. There I stood with baggie in hand saying "WOW, if we had another mare in heat how easy would it be to just use this one on her?" At that point I KNEW that this could happen to me or any of you breeders that do not require DNA.

Is there a thing we can do to stop this?? Really, y'all, think about this, even if you did not send two baggies, they could (in a bad world) split the one and use it on two mares. Dishonest people will always find a way..........honest people never will.

[alterbreeding]

Thanks everyone. I spoke to the SO today & they will follow up. SO confirmed the contract is for 1 mare. I am sure there will be a bit of DNA testing in the future for both babies. I doubt the SO will do business with the MO in the future, but that's for them to decide. I do hope ths MO gets what's coming. This is just plain unacceptable.

[sid]

Good for you.

[YankeeLawyer]

I just want to clarify something, in part because variations of this issue seem to come up a lot, but don't forget that breeding contracts often do not prohibit splitting doses or specify that the fee is for 1 foal. If 1 fee = 1 foal is what the parties intended, that should be in the contract.

It happens that in this case the OP's hunch seems to be correct regarding the terms of the particular contract at issue, but frankly I think that the original post, which was made without first having verified the terms, was premature. In addition, there still is the possibility that the mare was bred to stallion 1 and did not take, and then bred to stallion 2, whom the mareowner has identified as the foal's sire. Unless the OP also knows ALL the particulars of the mare's breeding history, I think it is best to refrain from publicly commenting on the situation (other than in the hypothetical) and from confronting the stallion owner.

[alterbreeding]

YL, I did leave out quite a few details as well as the MO's comments about the breeding & contract that would give it away. Both mares were bred only 1 time on the same, both were cycled together & both caught. There was never any frozen used.

[Molly Malone]

Many people don't care about foal registration, especially those breeding for the performance (non-breeding) market.


So the hunter market could be rife with this? Especially for a stallion who's foals can't be registered anyway? (I'm thinking of eg Zarr? Who isn't approved? I apologize if I'm totally off base here) You could advertise your hunter prospect as being by anyone!

Wow. Just wow.

[Cielo Azure]

The mandatory random DNA testing error rate (whorng sire listed, not that the DNA is in error) on reg. Percherons is 20%. This is about standard for the horse industry. Some of it is that yearling stallion, who people didn't realize could breed but some of it is people playing dirty and who finally get caught by the new mandatory DNA. This is why DNA is so wonderful, there are "cheats" all over that place.

[YankeeLawyer]

YL, I did leave out quite a few details as well as the MO's comments about the breeding & contract that would give it away. Both mares were bred only 1 time on the same, both were cycled together & both caught. There was never any frozen used.

Fair enough. I have just seen a number of instances where people jump to the conclusion that it is always unethical, illegal, and/or breach of contract to split doses, when it patently is not always the case. Your original post did not provide enough information for some to reach the conclusions they did.

[Cielo Azure]

Your approach (cold calling the SO and letting him/her know your suspicions) is something that I just wouldn't risk. Can you imagine what will happen if the SO demands DNA testing, babies are tested and you were wrong?

You could be liable for all costs associated with testing, slander (such as your writings here) and the loss of the mare owner's good will in her horse related business community. If the mare owner decided to go after you, which she could do so even if the foal was by the stallion, if she claimed they had a verbal agreement that was also being breeched. People do crazy things when they get defensive. You could become involved in a lawsuit or even in a lawsuit. For me, I wouldn't risk it because if I was wrong, or even if I was right, I could end up in the middle of a great big legal mess.

If I confronted anyone, it would have been the mare's owner.

Just be careful.

[Erin Pittman]

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. However, I would see a lawsuit over libel (rather than slander, which is spoken) as not having much to stand on. No names have been mentioned - not mare owner's or stallion owner's. No location has been given. Many stallion owners have already stated that it has happened to them, so one would assume that this probably happens more frequently than we think. I'd be willing to bet a lot of dishonest mare owners who could be readers of this thread may now be nervous - thinking to themselves, "uh oh. Is this me alterbreeding's talking about?" Busted. MOST mare owners probably are like those of us that have already commented - even if it would occur to them, they would never do it because they have good ethics in their business dealings.

[alterbreeding]

CA, mare owner freely admits to her friends in the barn what she did, but figures as we are her "friends" (using the term loosely) that no one will say anything. I doubt there will be any legal ramifications here. I can't let on much more than I already have, but no one jumped to conclusions, DNA doesn't lie & I do think/hope once confronted, MO will fess up. However, I will likely breed to this stallion down the line myself. The babies are fantastic!

SO will inquire & take it from here. No names will be publically mentioned.

[Cielo Azure]

CA, mare owner freely admits to her friends in the barn what she did, but figures as we are her "friends" (using the term loosely) that no one will say anything. I doubt there will be any legal ramifications here. I can't let on much more than I already have, but no one jumped to conclusions, DNA doesn't lie & I do think/hope once confronted, MO will fess up. .

That is just gross. I just don't get some people -to not only lie and cheat but then brag about it.

[wildREDhorse]

I hope that some of her other "friends" also have mares they may breed... Or else you may have just outed yourself... But I do agree with letting the SO know, as you did.. Just be careful what you are saying..

SO's - How do you safeguard against a mare owner splitting the dose, or using 2 doses - one on mare in contract, and one on an ET from mare in contract, thus its all the same mare.. just two babies? I doubt I am the first person to think of someone scamming in that fashion. Do you have clauses in your contracts?

[alterbreeding]

I hope that some of her other "friends" also have mares they may breed...

They do. I'm not going to comment on this particular situation any longer.

SO's I'd also like to know how you'd handle this situation. I'm not sure there is much you can do other than make the MO pay the stud fee, but I'd love to hear your perspective on it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I had someone contact me several years ago, because they had just purchased a youngster that was supposed to be by a son of my stallion. She bought him from a COTH poster (although not a SHB poster). Funny, but at that time, my stallion was not old enough to have a son of breedable age. We both suspected it was actually a son, and were going to do DNA testing to find out. I did PT the COTH poster, but was never answered. Unfortunately, my computer crashed, and I lost the owner's contact information. I was supposed to get back to her with information to have the DNA matched. She probably thinks I was not interested in helping her. I wish she would contact me again. I believe she named him Nevada's Jax R Wild, and he is a chestnut pinto.

Anyone recognize this horse?