An Eventing Standdown? NOT A BOYCOTT

[RAyers]

Given that the recent spate of tragedies for both horses and riders, maybe now is the time to seriously consider a temporary stop to the season (1 or 2 weeks) so that officials, researchers, vets, and all can take some time to really review what is happening and get everyone on the same page. Without having to worry about competitions for a period, folks can focus on one thing and not be spread out across the country.

The military does this with plane crashes and mechanical failures.

This may also give everybody a chance to take time to re-evaluate where they are and where they want to go. They can ask "Am I ready?"

I think it would be very impressive if the USEF/USEA said, "Hold on! We want to gather everybody involved with the state of the sport today together review our situation." I know it is unlikely but it is a nice dream.

Reed

[hookedoneventing]

Reed- I am thinking I might have to agree...

As I sit here watching stadium for Rolex it is with such a heavy heart, I am heartbroken by this weekend...I have this horrible pain in my stomach for the pain suffered this weekend, it breaks my heart that we lost two wonderful athletes, and nearly another rider...something must be done NOW...all of this is not just simple mishaps here and there, it is time I think...I love my sport, it is who I am, but I love my horses...I want to know that safety is of the utmost here..

perhaps this is the way to go...

[Gestalt]

I agree totally. This has gotten crazy. And to make it crazier "die hard" eventers keep justifying the deaths. :no:

[RunForIt]

Thank you, Reed, for having the courage to make this statement.

Its far better for us to call a halt ourselves - out of intelligence, out of respect for all that is great about our riders and horses - than for some other agency, organization, or the government to make this move.

I personally called a halt to it this morning when I read about Frodo Baggins...Laine's condition, and then The Quiet Man's exit from life sealed it for me.

[4Martini]

I guess my only view on this is that I don't really feel the sport I'm doing is the same sport that happens at Rolex. They keep coming up with new rules for us - 1 fall on CC, tighter speed fault limits - but these accidents luckily are not happening at BN. What is stopping your average BN-T events going to do? Give them time to regulate us more since bad stuff is happening at the higher levels? I guess I'm just fed up. I'm starting to go with the call earlier of just breaking out a different governing body for the fun levels and disassociating with the higher levels.

It just seems hard on the people who have saved hard earned money, ridden in the dark after work to perfect their 2'9" stadium to shut down the competitions they have been planning for over something that I see as pretty much unrelated.

I guess I'm just a little emotional over the weekend. I didn't even watch this year as I was too scared to see what happened. It just seems like everytime something bad happens at a **** they want to fix us by making sure we're not running around BN out of control. Hello- there's no link!

I'm all for a safer sport and hell we need to do something - but it seems like too much of it gets shouldered on the adult ammies and kids.

What about the people who have move up plans who are going to loose one last confidence building run at a lower level.

Truth is I would support stopping all prelim and above and having some time to focus on that.

None of this impacts me either way as I have no entries in. But, focus on the problem!

[RiverBendPol]

It could be a great idea, Reed, on many fronts. I wonder if the competitors might actually appreciate being told to stay home. Sort of like those days at an event when you think you should scratch bc it is so wet/muddy/dry/hard/hot then the Organizer cancels and it comes as a relief! I know I am feeling some relief of my own that I am not out on the Intermediate courses this season but rather have a 4 year old who isn't ready to compete.
Would you have the halt go into effect right now or how would that work, do you suppose?

[GreekDressageQueen]

:no: I would agree. All of these tragedies may be coincidences, poor timing, or just bad luck, but I am very tired of reading the news only to hear about another death. It's just so sad. :cry:

[kookicat]

I agree- I'm dreading Badmintion. I have an awful feeling about it. :(

[Firefox]

I remember this going on a few years ago before frangible pins and before the instant access to information, not sure a stand down is in order for the average event rider, but if I was riding at the int or above level, I would be thinking about things, you hate to talk about mistakes made but that is what these were, a fraction of a second miscalulation, the two jumps on course were jumped by everyone else and have been on the rolex course forever, what made them different today???

[RunForIt]

Someone has to speak for and to the horses' deaths...and it had best be us - BN to UL riders. If the ULRs stop to gather themselves and ask VERY HARD QUESTIONS, then I'll willingly join them. Novice and Training will be out there if the sport is saved. If we can't find answers ourselves, someone else will.

[hookedoneventing]

Darren's accident happened on a prelim course, one death on prelim course at Ocala in 06, and a rotational fall on the prelim course at Ocala had a rider airlifted out earlier this year...I believe accidents are happening at prelim too...

[Jazzy Lady]

It will never happen when you have people with this attitude about the courses: http://www.eventingetc.com/2008/april-june/reports/report_rolex_sat_xc.htm

Read the red at the bottom of the page.

[JAM]

I agree with the other posters who say Int. and Adv. (maybe just Adv., based on the data). The tragedies don't seem to be happening at nearly the same rate at P and below, though I confess to not having the data to back that assertion up. While the apologists (for lack of a better word) can come up with asserted reasons that each incident is idiosyncratic, there have been way, way too many in the last year or so (maybe two years), and especially in the last 2-3 months, to consider them flukes. Something has gone seriously wrong, and the consequences are too horrendous to try to mend the situation on the fly.

My heartfelt condolences to all those, and their families and close friends, who have suffered from these events.

[RiverBendPol]

.....the two jumps on course were jumped by everyone else and have been on the rolex course forever, what made them different today???

It is true, everyone else jumped them. It is also true that these are freak accidents and there is no one to blame. The flower basket was new and did have 4 things that I saw which would have caused an issue for my old horse. 1. It had an overhead. Some horses (mine inc) jump these types of fences differently/maybe badly. Mine would jump anything with an overhead as if he was a torpedo. Thankfully, the jumps we did, back in the day, were either keyholes with brush all around or they were a bench type jump.
2. It had a funky ground line. I think if there is a ground line at all, it has to be straight.
3. It was very vertical.
4. The back rail was not raised.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I'm sorry if you think I'm a broken record but I do believe these accidents have *SOMETHIING* to do with the loss of the long format. I sincerely believe that. Whether it is because the horses and/or riders aren't training as well or don't know how to get out of sticky situations or the horses haven't had to go 620 for 4 minutes or the long muscles aren't developed well enough OR WHAT, I don't know, but I am convinced there is a correlation.

[hookedoneventing]

NICE...nevermind that it cost two horses lives....and has left one rider once again on a ventilator in intensive care...

I am starting to have a hard time with this...and like I said I love my sport...

[goodymar1188]

It will never happen when you have people with this attitude about the courses: http://www.eventingetc.com/2008/april-june/reports/report_rolex_sat_xc.htm

Read the red at the bottom of the page.

I read that yesterday before the afternoon session even went and I was speechless...

[vineyridge]

This is a great idea. The USEA powers need to be bombarded with emails asking for a time for study and diagnosis by safety engineering and veterinary experts before they leap in to change everything else.

[retreadeventer]

I agree with Firefox.
Long ago an instructor I greatly admired told me, "there is no such thing as an accident, somewhere, somebody made a mistake. Accidents don't just happen, there is a reason if you look carefully enough." This statement was made to me long before the internet, before even video became available to everyone to use on cross country, etc. Before the perfect vision of instant replay.

One has to take a look and remind oneself that these competitors and horses come all to the course with a wide variety of experiences and skill sets. Because of qualifications many have to have a certain number of clean/clear advanced runs, etc., and all meet that standard of course, but in different ways and by different time frames.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that this is the reason we are calling for data before drastic action is taken, to be able to find out if the accidents are as a result of unready horses and riders, and if so, to take steps to correct that -- making up more qualifications or finding criteria to keep the sport as safe as possible at the upper levels. Or if the accidents are random, or related to the courses, or related to what the someone did or didn't do, or any other reason that can be plausibly found.

Not sure, Reed, calling a halt to all events would serve the entire sport well. As a training level rider I am not at all happy as it is that the rule changes being proposed are affecting our levels when data so far doesn't support the premise that novice and training have any problems whatsoever. Unfortunately we are being painted with the same brush which irritates me no end.

[4Martini]

Someone has to speak for and to the horses' deaths...and it had best be us - BN to UL riders. If the ULRs stop to gather themselves and ask VERY HARD QUESTIONS, then I'll willingly join them. Novice and Training will be out there if the sport is saved. If we can't find answers ourselves, someone else will.

The thing that worries me about this is it that they focus on making the sport safer rather than solving the problem at hand. At work we would call the problem description make eventing safer a Boil the Ocean problem. It's too big - it needs to be focused on smaller well defined problems - they need to be analyzed to root cause and then define and implement corrective actions.

To use Reed's analogy if say F16s were crashing, the airforce would not shut down flying. They may stop flying F16s, or F16s manufactured before 1980 (I know nothing about planes - so ignore my specifics - just an example.) Then they would go figure out what the failure mechanism was and put a CA in place for it.

When you bring BN - T into the fold it just seems that you start trying to fix a problem that either has not been defined or does not exist. In doing so you risk not getting a clear definition of the problem you actually need to solve.

That said - if they agree to focus on the problem and we need a symapthy strike I can understand that. But, again what does that do to the people who have events coming up? Those great grassroots people who have supported our sport in many instances for decades? Do we let them loose their shirts because they have to cancell their events?

[TB or not TB?]

I agree with the other posters who say Int. and Adv. (maybe just Adv., based on the data). No tragedies seem to be happening at P and below (maybe 1-2 over a period of years, and certainly nothing in the proportion we've been seeing them above P). While the apologists (for lack of a better word) can come up with asserted reasons that each incident is idiosyncratic, there have been way, way too many in the last year or so (maybe two years), and especially in the last 2-3 months, to consider them flukes. Something has gone seriously wrong, and the consequences are too horrendous to try to mend the situation on the fly.

My heartfelt condolences to all those, and their families and close friends, who have suffered from these events.

I hate to correct this, but actually Prelim has the highest amount of deaths (8 since 2006, 12 overall in past 10 years). That does not include accidents though, just deaths.

This is compared with ~6 Int, and ~9 Advanced.

[Firefox]

The flower basket was new and did have 4 things that I saw which would have caused an issue for my old horse.
I have said it before and I will say it again. I'm sorry if you think I'm a broken record but I do believe these accidents have *SOMETHIING* to do with the loss of the long format. I sincerely believe that. Whether it is because the horses and/or riders aren't training as well or don't know how to get out of sticky situations or the horses haven't had to go 620 for 4 minutes or the long muscles aren't developed well enough OR WHAT, I don't know, but I am convinced there is a correlation.

It would be interesting to be able to show some correlation to the long vs short. I thought that they had some sort of basket just prior to the head of the lake last year, that is why I said it had been on the course before just a differnt area. I also wonder how much the lost of open space and lack of kids on ponies doing wonderfully fun and yet daring things like riding bareback, racing home etc etc, does for your built in ability to adjust

[La Gringa]

For me, if I evented, which I don't.. I wouldn't want to enter my horse, that I care for and love like a kid, knowing these risks and statistics. It seems to be suicide, for both horse and rider to go on like this.

I think that there are plenty of ways to enjoy horse sports without subjecting the horse and rider to such high risk and fatal statistics.

I enjoy showjumping very much, the technical aspect, the fanfare.. and I am glad that is what I have chosen as my thing... sure accidents happen, in EVERY horse sport, but clearly not at the frequency that has been the case in eventing, and everybody knows it.

[JAM]

As I said, it was just an impression on my part, with no supporting data. Thanks for the correction, as it leads to more informed discussion. That said, do you have the figures as a percentage of the total number of starters?

TB or Not TB responded to my earlier post as follows: "I hate to correct this, but actually Prelim has the highest amount of deaths (8 since 2006, 12 overall in past 10 years). That does not include accidents though, just deaths. This is compared with ~6 Int, and ~9 Advanced."

[vineyridge]

It is true, everyone else jumped them. It is also true that these are freak accidents and there is no one to blame. The flower basket was new and did have 4 things that I saw which would have caused an issue for my old horse. 1. It had an overhead. Some horses (mine inc) jump these types of fences differently/maybe badly. Mine would jump anything with an overhead as if he was a torpedo. Thankfully, the jumps we did, back in the day, were either keyholes with brush all around or they were a bench type jump.
2. It had a funky ground line. I think if there is a ground line at all, it has to be straight.
3. It was very vertical.
4. The back rail was not raised.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I'm sorry if you think I'm a broken record but I do believe these accidents have *SOMETHIING* to do with the loss of the long format. I sincerely believe that. Whether it is because the horses and/or riders aren't training as well or don't know how to get out of sticky situations or the horses haven't had to go 620 for 4 minutes or the long muscles aren't developed well enough OR WHAT, I don't know, but I am convinced there is a correlation.

Jimmy Wofford's course walk article for CoTH said that the Flower Basket had a new terrain feature this year that would make getting lined up right for it a matter of importance. So something was changed, but it wasn't the jump itself--it was the presentation to it.

[One Star]

There is some data in this article in the British Horse & Hound Magazine, which came out yesterday:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=254274&aff=rss

An excerpt:

"The figures show that for every 1,000 riders taking part in international eventing last year, three suffered a serious or fatal injury — but the number of falls is dropping overall.

In 2002, after the 1999 season when there were five deaths in UK horse trials, the FEI started gathering information at international (but not national) events worldwide.

"The most important factor in eventing safety is the rider," said Mr Della Chiesa. "Many people in the sport today do not have a history of cross-country horsemanship. Someone riding in an unsafe manner could have a fall at a solid fence on flat ground.

"We must educate, but the FEI cannot do this alone. National federations must increase the training of riders and their trainers."

The number of entrants in FEI eventing competitions has risen from 6,583 to 13,252, and the number of classes from 263 to 407 since 2002.

Last year the 60 rotational or somersault falls were recorded in international eventing the highest number since records began. There were 51 in 2006.

And there were two deaths in international eventing, both from rotational falls.
A quarter of the riders involved in these falls will be severely injured or will die, according to FEI figures."

[One Star]

And Mike Tucker had this comment:

"Mike Tucker, FEI eventing safety sub-committee member, said: 'I don't want to prejudge the results of the safety review [announced last year, news, 17 May], but we have many more people taking part in pre-novice competition whose coaching and training is not always appropriate.' "

[TB or not TB?]

Sorry, before I was only listing rider deaths.

The data I have for HORSE deaths, and it is not at all complete, is as such:
13 at Adv
7 at Int
1 Prelim

However, it is a lot harder to find this info and the data is skewed because unless it's a big name event, it's not really talked about.

[magnolia73]

All I can say is that I can no longer get enjoyment from following the sport. Seriously- too much sadness for me to make up for the good stuff.

I think the challenge is too great when you are getting one or two horses seriously injured or killed per every couple of competitions. I realize the horses WANT to do it and perhaps even enjoy it, but that doesn't make it OK or a responsible act to ask them to compete on such a precarious threshold.

[LLDM]

I have said it before and I will say it again. I'm sorry if you think I'm a broken record but I do believe these accidents have *SOMETHIING* to do with the loss of the long format. I sincerely believe that. Whether it is because the horses and/or riders aren't training as well or don't know how to get out of sticky situations or the horses haven't had to go 620 for 4 minutes or the long muscles aren't developed well enough OR WHAT, I don't know, but I am convinced there is a correlation.

It may be the unintended consequences of the short format.
- Riders riding MANY more horses than they would ever have before with the long format.
- Riders being less careful because they have so many horses (they seem to make more mistakes at "lower" levels and/or on their "reliable", more familiar mounts).
- More competitions, closer together.
- Courses more technical to separate the "top".
- Wanting to perform for "owners" who are spending very large amounts of money to campaign UL horses.
- More upper level horses than riders.
- Florida, Florida, Florida. That is, no down season. Maybe people need that too.

Many smaller things that alone would not be a problem can cause any system to become unstable.

Just some food for thought.

SCFarm

[TB or not TB?]

That said, do you have the figures as a percentage of the total number of starters?

No, and it would probably make a big difference on the RATE of deaths. However, the numbers alone do show that the problem exists at Prlim as well.

[vineyridge]

That said - if they agree to focus on the problem and we need a symapthy strike I can understand that. But, again what does that do to the people who have events coming up? Those great grassroots people who have supported our sport in many instances for decades? Do we let them loose their shirts because they have to cancell their events?

It's late in the season and entries are in, but it would be the ideal solution of the organizers would just not run prelim and up at their events. And run more BN though Training Divisions. If you're a Prelim rider, it won't hurt you to run training a couple of times this year.

That's where the strike comes in--only ride training and below. Then see how the statistics on falls and injuries stack up.

[JAM]

These are interesting statistics. While the number of falls may be dropping overall, the number of rotational falls -- the ones that almost always cause the deaths or truly serious injuries of horse &/or rider -- is increasing dramatically, from 51 in 2006 to 60 in 2007, a near 20% increase. I honestly don't see how the problems of rotational falls can be laid at the feet of the pre-novice riders without adequate coaching, as Michael Tucker does in the article (and as do many, if not most, other ULRs and course designers who have commented on this issue recently). Rotational falls just really aren't an issue at the lower levels; at those levels, the horse will just stop or run out, and if the horse does try to go, the fences are low enough that a rotational fall is not apt to occur.

There is some data in this article in the British Horse & Hound Magazine, which came out yesterday:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=254274&aff=rss

An excerpt:

"The figures show that for every 1,000 riders taking part in international eventing last year, three suffered a serious or fatal injury — but the number of falls is dropping overall.

In 2002, after the 1999 season when there were five deaths in UK horse trials, the FEI started gathering information at international (but not national) events worldwide.

"The most important factor in eventing safety is the rider," said Mr Della Chiesa. "Many people in the sport today do not have a history of cross-country horsemanship. Someone riding in an unsafe manner could have a fall at a solid fence on flat ground.

"We must educate, but the FEI cannot do this alone. National federations must increase the training of riders and their trainers."

The number of entrants in FEI eventing competitions has risen from 6,583 to 13,252, and the number of classes from 263 to 407 since 2002.

Last year the 60 rotational or somersault falls were recorded in international eventing the highest number since records began. There were 51 in 2006.

And there were two deaths in international eventing, both from rotational falls.
A quarter of the riders involved in these falls will be severely injured or will die, according to FEI figures."

[La Gringa]

All I can say is that I can no longer get enjoyment from following the sport. Seriously- too much sadness for me to make up for the good stuff.

I think the challenge is too great when you are getting one or two horses seriously injured or killed per every couple of competitions. I realize the horses WANT to do it and perhaps even enjoy it, but that doesn't make it OK or a responsible act to ask them to compete on such a precarious threshold.

I fully agree with this statement and I hate to say this, and I may be flamed.. but I think it's cruel to the horse to do this knowing the risk is this high. It's suicide.

There I said it. It's honestly what I think.

[JAM]

Agreed. I stand corrected.

No, and it would probably make a big difference on the RATE of deaths. However, the numbers alone do show that the problem exists at Prlim as well.

[c_expresso]

I think most of us agree these aren't accidents. There is something that needs to be done with the sport.

But horses keep on dying.

People keep on getting seriously injured... sometimes not making it.

And everyone says, something needs to be done.

But what gets done? I have seen nothing. And people just go on and on, keep on eventing... seeming to forget the accidents.

I know there has recently been the "Eventing Task Force Goals" but really what has this done?

It seems every time there is a big event I find myself thinking not, "who will win," but, "who's doing to get hurt, what horse is going down."

My dream is to ride at Rolex. I am currently FAR from it, but it's what I want. Or is it? Do I want to go out on course thinking, am I next? I do not want to put my horse's life at risk by going out on these tracks.

I do not find myself watching Grand Prixs and wondering who is going to end up on a stretcher... what horse is going to end up behind screens.

The fact that within the last 2 months I have joined 6 groups on FaceBook related to eventing tragedies is not good.

[magnolia73]

Statistics are statistics. But damn. Horses are being killed and dying. Whether it is 1 in 1000, 10,000 or 100,000. The fact that the last two years at Rolex have cost horses lives, plus tragedies at the events leading up to it is just wrong. If in two years you had 4 horses break down and die at the Derby it would be a nightmare.

Damn the statistics. PREPARED, TALENTED horses and riders are being badly injured and killed. They are being overfaced. It's cruel and unnecessary. Yeah- some do make it clear- thank god they didn't put a foot wrong and kept their wits together. The margin of error is too low at the upper levels.

[BLBGP]

Do they even have screens at HJ shows? It seems that if a sport has fatalities often enough to require screens to be on-hand, something's wrong.

RIP the horses killed this weekend and a speedy recovery to the injured riders.

[hedmbl]

Do they even have screens at HJ shows? It seems that if a sport has fatalities often enough to require screens to be on-hand, something's wrong.

RIP the horses killed this weekend and a speedy recovery to the injured riders.

No we don't.

[hedmbl]

I think most of us agree these aren't accidents. There is something that needs to be done with the sport.

But horses keep on dying.

People keep on getting seriously injured... sometimes not making it.

And everyone says, something needs to be done.

But what gets done? I have seen nothing. And people just go on and on, keep on eventing... seeming to forget the accidents.

I know there has recently been the "Eventing Task Force Goals" but really what has this done?

It seems every time there is a big event I find myself thinking not, "who will win," but, "who's doing to get hurt, what horse is going down."

My dream is to ride at Rolex. I am currently FAR from it, but it's what I want. Or is it? Do I want to go out on course thinking, am I next? I do not want to put my horse's life at risk by going out on these tracks.

I do not find myself watching Grand Prixs and wondering who is going to end up on a stretcher... what horse is going to end up behind screens.

The fact that within the last 2 months I have joined 6 groups on FaceBook related to eventing tragedies is not good.


Very well said.

[Plumcreek]

As a non-eventer, I have always wondered why jumps cannot be solid appearing, but able to break away if hit full force (not a hard rub), vs solid jumps that flip the horse into a rotational fall. You can't change banks, drops and ditches, but you could change this one element.

I bought the feed and watched yesterday, but did not want to watch anymore today.

[sm]

yes. Please!!!

Given that the recent spate of tragedies for both horses and riders, maybe now is the time to seriously consider a temporary stop to the season (1 or 2 weeks) so that officials, researchers, vets, and all can take some time to really review what is happening and get everyone on the same page. Without having to worry about competitions for a period, folks can focus on one thing and not be spread out across the country.

The military does this with plane crashes and mechanical failures.

This may also give everybody a chance to take time to re-evaluate where they are and where they want to go. They can ask "Am I ready?"

Reed

[retreadeventer]

For me, if I evented, which I don't.. I wouldn't want to enter my horse, that I care for and love like a kid, knowing these risks and statistics. It seems to be suicide, for both horse and rider to go on like this.

I think that there are plenty of ways to enjoy horse sports without subjecting the horse and rider to such high risk and fatal statistics.

I enjoy showjumping very much, the technical aspect, the fanfare.. and I am glad that is what I have chosen as my thing... sure accidents happen, in EVERY horse sport, but clearly not at the frequency that has been the case in eventing, and everybody knows it.

Now, ya see, La Gringa.....I am going to pick on you! Mildly! Please bear with me.
I mean no harm, but ....

statements like that is the reason I can't convince a friend with a super nice jumping horse to join me in eventing a little this summer at some great venues near where we both live.
We who event care for and love our horses like kids, too. We know the statistics are not what they seem, because even the little things get blown way out of proportion especially on bulletin boards. I don't think anyone has found yet any stats that say novice and training levels are "dangerous". I think steeplechasing is truly dangerous, and the horse deaths in that sport make eventing pale in comparison.

It's like someone accusing you of a crime. If you stand up and say, I didn't do it! You are put on the defense! Even if you are innocent. But unfortunately people IN eventing can't stand up and say you're wrong. If they do then they are considered to be "apologists" or "sticking their heads in the sand".

Just because you don't think the Advanced level eventing is safe you won't do it. We who event don't believe the entire sport is unsafe, therefore, we are going to continue to event -- I just can't believe that a BBN rider isn't going to go to Olde Hope in June because two horses fell at Rolex in April....(certainly sad and worth concern). That is not to say we do not agree with some portion of your statements. Surely there is something wrong at the top end we have to fix.

I have seen some incredible brutality and extremely poor horsemanship at jumper shows (and been the victim of same personally) and that is reason I don't compete in hunter and jumper divisions, but I don't condemn the whole sport for that. Not meaning to pick on this particular statement, but just the commonly held belief. Not sure if I said this the way I wanted to, and I am not being personal -- I want to speak to the concept, but I just would like to make the point that I am really talking about two different levels of the sport, unfortunately, and we at the lower levels are being made to be apologists for the upper levels and undeservedly so.

I have seen HUNDREDS of BN, novice, and training horses run over courses like Fair Hill and Waredaca over a weekend and not one horse even fell. These two huge events run 200 and more, Waredaca has given out 400 numbers before. Not one horse! One event I was jump judging at last year ran over 125 horses and didn't even have a fall of rider all day, not even in warmup! I judged a tiny little local hunter show yesterday and I ran out of fingers to count the falls and these were kids over 12 inch crossrails on the quietest old dead lame school horses you ever saw, and all schooled in the ring before the classes were held and still fell off.

[luveventing]

Agreed- and personally I am fed up with hearing about "education" and qualifications over and over again from the higher ups and ULR. We lowly little people at BN/N and Training are NOT the ones killing ourselves and our horses. Take a good hard look at yourselves people before there arent any more of you left. THAT is what makes me not want to get back to the upper levels anymore. If educated, well informed, professionals with access to all the resources out there cannot step back and DO SOMETHING about the horses that they ride and their friends- then I don't want to be part of that group. I know its their living and they can make more money, have more horses, have more owners with the short format and continuing to compete- but this is ridiculous. I would love to see them throw in a long format CCI*** and see how those riders fare. but these days, its a roll of the dice to see if you or your horse are going to come home from an event in one piece anymore.

Why have we heard no one but maybe Bruce Davidson speak up about course design and what the issues really are instead of pointing the fingers at the lower levels??? I just don't get it. You think at some point they would get as sick of this as we are and speak up or do something. There is no way in hell I would take my upper level horse out there right now. As others have said, I am glad I have youngsters, but I worry about that kind of future I am training them for. If there isn't a major shakedown in eventing, the talented young horses I have will be finding another sport.

I want to see these "role models" STAND UP for their horses and their colleagues and DO SOMETHING PROACTIVE. I want to see some compassion, emotion, anything from the upper level riders out there. I want to see they aren't afraid of pissing people off to protect the sport they live their lives for.

I know something is VERY wrong when at Rolex.... with 40k spectators, TV coverage, press, in an Olympic year they cannot keep horses and people from being hurt. There is something VERY wrong here and it has to stop. Every big event this year someone has been hurt (horse or rider). I did not even watch rolex this year because I was afraid this would happen and I am sad to say I was right.

How many spectators do you think are going to make that trip down to Rolex to potentially see another horse broken and destroyed or riders maimed for a THIRD YEAR in a row???
I am guessing not too many....

[Murphy1]

I think it is really important to understand although there are several riders who have fantastic horses, and are indeed accomplished riders, these same people simply to not have the experience, talent or maturity to be competing at the levels they are currently competing. Instead of continuing to gain experience and knowledge, many of these riders jump to Advanced (or other levels) because they have brilliant horses, or the funding from family, etc.or feel pushed or pressured.

I think it speaks volumes for Will Faudree who was willing to withdraw Brad, knowing this would be his last Rolex....but he simply honors that horse and as he say, "he owes me nothing"...this also comes from someone who happens to be brilliant on XC and had a damn good chance of winning this year in my opinion.

There is alot of accountability to go around, politics to put up with, however, there are many things we can change and correct to save this sport, but we better start eating a little humble pie, and realize we can not ride at a level we certainly have no business competing in....

[GotSpots]

Do they even have screens at HJ shows? It seems that if a sport has fatalities often enough to require screens to be on-hand, something's wrong.
Yes, most A level jumper shows, and all grand prixs have screens. As does every racetrack, be it flat racing or steeplechasing.

[La Gringa]

Now, ya see, La Gringa.....I am going to pick on you! Mildly! Please bear with me.
I mean no harm, but ....

statements like that is the reason I can't convince a friend with a super nice jumping horse to join me in eventing a little this summer at some great venues near where we both live.
We who event care for and love our horses like kids, too. We know the statistics are not what they seem, because even the little things get blown way out of proportion especially on bulletin boards. I don't think anyone has found yet any stats that say novice and training levels are "dangerous". I think steeplechasing is truly dangerous, and the horse deaths in that sport make eventing pale in comparison.

It's like someone accusing you of a crime. If you stand up and say, I didn't do it! You are put on the defense! Even if you are innocent. But unfortunately people IN eventing can't stand up and say you're wrong. If they do then they are considered to be "apologists" or "sticking their heads in the sand".

Just because you don't think the Advanced level eventing is safe you won't do it. We who event don't believe the entire sport is unsafe, therefore, we are going to continue to event -- I just can't believe that a BBN rider isn't going to go to Olde Hope in June because two horses fell at Rolex in April....(certainly sad and worth concern). That is not to say we do not agree with some portion of your statements. Surely there is something wrong at the top end we have to fix.

I have seen some incredible brutality and extremely poor horsemanship at jumper shows (and been the victim of same personally) and that is reason I don't compete in hunter and jumper divisions, but I don't condemn the whole sport for that. Not meaning to pick on this particular statement, but just the commonly held belief. Not sure if I said this the way I wanted to, and I am not being personal -- I want to speak to the concept, but I just would like to make the point that I am really talking about two different levels of the sport, unfortunately, and we at the lower levels are being made to be apologists for the upper levels and undeservedly so.

I have seen HUNDREDS of BN, novice, and training horses run over courses like Fair Hill and Waredaca over a weekend and not one horse even fell. These two huge events run 200 and more, Waredaca has given out 400 numbers before. Not one horse! One event I was jump judging at last year ran over 125 horses and didn't even have a fall of rider all day, not even in warmup! I judged a tiny little local hunter show yesterday and I ran out of fingers to count the falls and these were kids over 12 inch crossrails on the quietest old dead lame school horses you ever saw, and all schooled in the ring before the classes were held and still fell off.

I am educated enough to know that the falls like this aren't in BN or even Novice levels... that are causing this. I also know of course there are bad examples of horsemanship in all diciplines, jumpers included.. BUT.. when people are riding at BN and Novice level, their goal is to move up.. esp the young riders with great aspirations.. to be like Karen, David, Bruce, Darren etc.. For me that is when it gets scary.

I of course know that all eventers are not cruel to their horses or committing suicide by competing.. but it really seems the higher level you get, and especially lately...... things are getting very ugly, with a lot of very serious injuries and deaths. For me to move up and ask my horse to do this at the higher levels would be irresponsible... to subject him to that risk. This is my opinion of course, everyone is entitled to compete and do whatever they want with their horse. I just myself wouldn't be comfortable doing it.

I think from what others have written here, I am not alone in that thought either.

It's just to scary and dangerous for me or my ponies. I've had enough scary dangerous falls in regular jumpers.... and thank god the jumps did come down in some cases.. or it would have been just as ugly.

[TB or not TB?]

Do they even have screens at HJ shows? It seems that if a sport has fatalities often enough to require screens to be on-hand, something's wrong.

No, because the the deaths and abuse happens in the privacy of the barns in that sport :cool:

(Relax guys, I'm throwing around stereotypes on purpose for humorous effect, nothing more)

[La Gringa]

I think most of us agree these aren't accidents. There is something that needs to be done with the sport.

But horses keep on dying.

People keep on getting seriously injured... sometimes not making it.

And everyone says, something needs to be done.

But what gets done? I have seen nothing. And people just go on and on, keep on eventing... seeming to forget the accidents.

I know there has recently been the "Eventing Task Force Goals" but really what has this done?

It seems every time there is a big event I find myself thinking not, "who will win," but, "who's doing to get hurt, what horse is going down."

My dream is to ride at Rolex. I am currently FAR from it, but it's what I want. Or is it? Do I want to go out on course thinking, am I next? I do not want to put my horse's life at risk by going out on these tracks.

I do not find myself watching Grand Prixs and wondering who is going to end up on a stretcher... what horse is going to end up behind screens.

The fact that within the last 2 months I have joined 6 groups on FaceBook related to eventing tragedies is not good.

I agree with this 100%. Very well said.

[maxdog]

Well, I don't consider myself an expert, but have been eventing for many years. I had this though last night, but didn't want to get burned at the stake for mentioning it....I definitely think riders aren't training as hard now that we have the short format. The number of horses with knees buckling at the end of the course is disturbing. The long format was much more strenuous, yet less accidents..no? Definitely less pulm. hemorrage. This needs to be looked into. Just my 2 cents!

[Kementari]

You know, it is possible to event (or do anything else) without ever aspiring to the highest levels. I love eventing - but I'm not aiming for Rolex. (Not, by the way, because of the accidents, but because I have a life outside of horses. ;) Though spending half the weekend on COTH isn't doing much to prove that... :lol:) No matter how good you are, no one holds a gun to your head and says, "Move up or die!" And, honestly, the vast majority of eventers never get past Training, goals or not; even fewer get past Prelim. Why not worry about the problems you are likely to face, instead of writing off an entire sport based on the risks of a level you are unlikely to ever attain?

That said, though, I think if we are going to take a time out, the lower levels should do it too. We at the lower levels keep insisting that we have the right to be involved in decisions about the upper levels, that we are eventers as much as ULRs are. Well, put your money where your mouth is: we matter to eventing or we don't. If we want to be counted, then it has to be when it's inconvenient, too.

[c_expresso]

You know, it is possible to event (or do anything else) without ever aspiring to the highest levels. I love eventing - but I'm not aiming for Rolex. (Not, by the way, because of the accidents, but because I have a life outside of horses. ;)

But your situation is different. It is not good when people want to reach the top in their sport but are scared to.

One might not want to play MLB on the Yankees because they have a life outside of baseball. But last time I checked no one didn't want to play on the Yankees because they were afraid of getting killed doing it (unless they happened to be from Boston... :lol::lol:)

[pegasusmom]

This may also give everybody a chance to take time to re-evaluate where they are and where they want to go. They can ask "Am I ready?"

Reed

Won't help. The conscientious people are already doing this and have been for a long time. What we all need to be asking ourselves is how do we improve and protect the sport from stupidity, egos and arrogance. That is what will kill this sport.

[EnjoyingRiding]

You know, it is possible to event (or do anything else) without ever aspiring to the highest levels. I love eventing - but I'm not aiming for Rolex. (Not, by the way, because of the accidents, but because I have a life outside of horses. ;) Though spending half the weekend on COTH isn't doing much to prove that... :lol:) No matter how good you are, no one holds a gun to your head and says, "Move up or die!" And, honestly, the vast majority of eventers never get past Training, goals or not; even fewer get past Prelim. Why not worry about the problems you are likely to face, instead of writing off an entire sport based on the risks of a level you are unlikely to ever attain?

That said, though, I think if we are going to take a time out, the lower levels should do it too. We at the lower levels keep insisting that we have the right to be involved in decisions about the upper levels, that we are eventers as much as ULRs are. Well, put your money where your mouth is: we matter to eventing or we don't. If we want to be counted, then it has to be when it's inconvenient, too.

Extremely well said!! I agree 100% - I love Eventing, but my goal is to get to Training one day when am settled in a good job and can afford a horse. It sounds silly, I know, but I am not a competitive person and ride for the enjoyment of the sport and my love of horses. However, I also agree with c_expresso that people shouldn't be scared of the upper levels - scared that they're not going to make it out alive, or their horse wont. Obviously your always going to be nervous - I bet even long time eventers like KOC get nervous before cross country rounds.

[Kementari]

But your situation is different. It is not good when people want to reach the top in their sport but are scared to.

One might not want to play MLB on the Yankees because they have a life outside of baseball. But last time I checked no one didn't want to play on the Yankees because they were afraid of getting killed doing it (unless they happened to be from Boston... :lol::lol:)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I guess my point is more that no matter how much you WANT to, the CHANCES of getting there are pretty darn slim. How many entries at Rolex over, say, a 5 year period? And how many people competing in eventing over that same period? The odds are miniscule. I'm not saying people shouldn't have goals, or that for some people getting to the top isn't a realistic goal, but I have a hard time believing that every single person who has said they are giving up/not starting eventing in the past couple of months had even a TINY chance of ever making it to the FEI level - of any discipline.

That said, IF by some miracle I were faced with the choice of competing at the upper levels right now, I would be thinking twice - or three or four times. But I just don't think that's a reason to run away from the entire sport.

[LLDM]

Won't help. The conscientious people are already doing this and have been for a long time. What we all need to be asking ourselves is how do we improve and protect the sport from stupidity, egos and arrogance. That is what will kill this sport.

Yeppers, those are the ones who are not wondering if they are ready.

Personal responsibility is a great idea that doesn't work for those who need it most. It's that thing which people never understand is about them. They sit around agreeing with everyone fully sure it's all about somebody else.

"OOOOHHHHHH, You mean MMMMMEEEEEE?????"

Yes, we mean you, genius.

SCFarm

[TeddyRocks]

You know, it is possible to event (or do anything else) without ever aspiring to the highest levels. I love eventing - but I'm not aiming for Rolex. (Not, by the way, because of the accidents, but because I have a life outside of horses. ;) Though spending half the weekend on COTH isn't doing much to prove that... :lol:) No matter how good you are, no one holds a gun to your head and says, "Move up or die!" And, honestly, the vast majority of eventers never get past Training, goals or not; even fewer get past Prelim. Why not worry about the problems you are likely to face, instead of writing off an entire sport based on the risks of a level you are unlikely to ever attain?

That said, though, I think if we are going to take a time out, the lower levels should do it too. We at the lower levels keep insisting that we have the right to be involved in decisions about the upper levels, that we are eventers as much as ULRs are. Well, put your money where your mouth is: we matter to eventing or we don't. If we want to be counted, then it has to be when it's inconvenient, too.

I agree with this 1000%. We must all unite and get involved.

[DLee]

So in the 70's and 80's, how many horses and riders died. Does anyone know?

[JER]

If eventing doesn't take the situation seriously, there's a good chance some outside agency will take up the cause. Like PETA or even local animal control/welfare groups who don't want eventing in their jurisdiction. Why allow an event to take place when you know animals will be seriously injured or killed?

At the Cheltenham Festival this year, 1 horse died. One horse out of hundreds of runners over all sorts of fences. At Aintree, 3 died. Again, the total number of entries are a multiple of the entries at Rolex. And this is steeplechasing on very tough courses, with terrain and unforgiving (by racing standards) jumps. The Grand National this year had 1 horse fatality. Rider fatalities, or even serious injuries are very rare (someone posted the stats on another thread). Nevertheless, the animal welfare group Animal Aid launched the Race Horse Death Watch (http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/) last year. It's not a very appealing list and remember, this is in a heavily-regulated sport with mandatory autopsies and follow-up reporting. I don't think we need to see an Event Horse Death Watch to know there's a problem.

I like the idea of a standdown but I can't see TPTB doing that in an Olympic year. Like pegasusmom said, they prefer to keep choking on their own egos.

The horse deaths are intolerable. We shouldn't send ANY horses to the start box knowing 1 or 2 won't be alive much longer.

The rider deaths are also intolerable. As grim as it sounds, we could VERY easily be talking about another rider's death right now. Laine Ashker's multiple rib fractures could have easily punctured her aorta as well as her lungs.

[RunForIt]

y'know, can't speak for anyone but me...

the lower levels are doing fine safety wise, but we really have no real data on injuries or deaths - human or equine. I love riding XC and certainly am not about to stop, but...

If the ULRs decided to take some time off, I'd support their stance. Again, horse sports are risky, but mistakes shouldn't cost lives or catastropic injuries. People shouldn't be afraid to take their children or friends to events like Rolex in fear of what they very well may witness.

I was THRILLED yesterday just watching XC on my computer - both dressage days were glorious. I was in despair yesterday afternoon, and sorry, I couldn't, wouldn't watch a single stadium round today. I've got no need to legislate what others do; its hard enough to deal with my own questions and values in this situation. I wish us all good luck.

[BigRuss1996]

I agree JER...and I think in a way it might be what it takes. Until then it will just be another "unfortunate accident" or "growing pain." The animal groups use to be very present in the sport back in the 90's and having been competing at the Upper levels then I can say it did make people more aware of what they were doing because they knew we were being watched. Maybe it is time for someone outside the sport to start watching again because the internal reviews and internal safety commitees don't seem to be seeing an issue they just keep regulating the lower levels that aren't the problem. I don't think we will see any real change otherwise...


If eventing doesn't take the situation seriously, there's a good chance some outside agency will take up the cause. Like PETA or even local animal control/welfare groups who don't want eventing in their jurisdiction. Why allow an event to take place when you know animals will be seriously injured or killed?

At the Cheltenham Festival this year, 1 horse died. One horse out of hundreds of runners over all sorts of fences. At Aintree, 3 died. Again, the total number of entries are a multiple of the entries at Rolex. And this is steeplechasing on very tough courses, with terrain and unforgiving (by racing standards) jumps. The Grand National this year had 1 horse fatality. Rider fatalities, or even serious injuries are very rare (someone posted the stats on another thread). Nevertheless, the animal welfare group Animal Aid launched the Race Horse Death Watch (http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/) last year. It's not a very appealing list and remember, this is in a heavily-regulated sport with mandatory autopsies and follow-up reporting. I don't think we need to see an Event Horse Death Watch to know there's a problem.

I like the idea of a standdown but I can't see TPTB doing that in an Olympic year. Like pegasusmom said, they prefer to keep choking on their own egos.

The horse deaths are intolerable. We shouldn't send ANY horses to the start box knowing 1 or 2 won't be alive much longer.

The rider deaths are also intolerable. As grim as it sounds, we could VERY easily be talking about another rider's death right now. Laine Ashker's multiple rib fractures could have easily punctured her aorta as well as her lungs.

[Rallycairn]

A horse or rider or both fall is always tragic, but in all honesty, how many CCI**** have not seen an accident? I'm in NO WAY trying to say that Laine and Frodo's fall should be swept under the rug.

(The above quote is from another Rolex thread.)

We have seemed to have reached a point where we accept that a major accident, involving horse and/or rider deaths or catastrophic injuries, is very likely at each and every 4 star (and, by extension and given our recent record, every prelim and up event). That's what this statement seems to me to imply, anyway.

I really, really want eventing to stop killing horses and riders. I don't want to look at the entry list of a prelim and up event and wonder, who's going to die today?

I find myself wondering whether I want to be involved in a sport with a death and injury rate this high.

I am the smurfiest of smurfs, having only ever competed baby novice (pre-BN). But I, for one, wonder if we can make a distinction at this point between being involved at the lower levels and being an ULR. Yes, the lower levels don't have the rotational/somersault falls. But right now, we're all under the same umbrella, and being involved in eventing at any level feels like
implicit condoning of this high mortality and catastrophic injury rate.

I think some kind of really big statement, like Reed's suggestion of a standdown, would be only too appropriate to honor the injuries/deaths of these horses, who were only trying to do what we were asking them to do, and the injuries/deaths of the riders.

I don't know that it would change anything, however. I recognize the USEA has announced the steps it is taking. But I don't want to keep seeing catastrophic injuries and deaths while we gather data.

Several others in various threads have stated something about this sport which I think makes it uniquely hazardous -- the best of the best, like Dutton and others, have a good chance of getting through the courses with their partners intact (though even the very top riders have lost horses to accidents). But to challenge them, the envelope is pushed so much, and the margin of error is very tiny -- and the results of even one mistake are often fatal. Really, how many sports are like that? Especially if we give equal weight to horse fatalities and include them in the statistics, too?

[thebrit]

I wonder how many more tragedies they are going to "sweep under the carpet" before anything is done.......
They may be addressing the issues but nothing has actually been done about them...has anything changed since red hills? How terrible we just had a repeat performance..2 horse deaths and one of our talented ULRs seriously injured.
I am hoping and praying they do something before it happens AGAIN....or it may be time to peace out and join the world where the jumps fall down.

[Vegas Sky]

To me, 95% of the accidents can be boiled down to one of two possibilities:

1) This is the biggest - rotational falls. 25% of horses and/or riders will be killed or sustain serious injury. That is just outlandish! The main focus of safety improvement right now needs to be on preventing these falls. The seemingly easy answer is to MANDATE that ALL cross country jumps be constructed or retrofitted with frangible pins. Even if it was built twenty years ago. If frangible pins are not possible with the jump construction then either don't build it or take it off the course. Yes, this would mean that we would lose some freaking awesome looking jumps, but what's more important here?

2) Additionally, there seems to be an overall lack of conditioning for the horses, due to the short format. Going 650 for ten minutes is just insane to me. Once more, I bring in the analogies of running - the most elite sprinters in the world run top speed for no more than 12 seconds over very short distances. The most elite marathoners run 8 minute miles for the race. Having optimum times in the 600s is like asking someone to flat out sprint a 5K - it just cannot be done. Something MUST be done to change the format of XC day and encourage proper conditioning.

[flyingchange]

I think it is really important to understand although there are several riders who have fantastic horses, and are indeed accomplished riders, these same people simply to not have the experience, talent or maturity to be competing at the levels they are currently competing. Instead of continuing to gain experience and knowledge, many of these riders jump to Advanced (or other levels) because they have brilliant horses, or the funding from family, etc.or feel pushed or pressured.

I think it speaks volumes for Will Faudree who was willing to withdraw Brad, knowing this would be his last Rolex....but he simply honors that horse and as he say, "he owes me nothing"...this also comes from someone who happens to be brilliant on XC and had a damn good chance of winning this year in my opinion.

There is alot of accountability to go around, politics to put up with, however, there are many things we can change and correct to save this sport, but we better start eating a little humble pie, and realize we can not ride at a level we certainly have no business competing in....

I agree with this completely. I watched one YR go around on a TOTAL SAINT and while I guess I was happy for getting through her first four star, I also was a bit dismayed that she was allowed to even start it to begin with. She was a COMPLETE passenger and it was pretty much up to her horse to be brilliant/brave/generous enough to get them through it, so much so that she had a safe round. But it could have easily turned out differently if she had not bought such an incredible ride. This kind of thing has got to stop.

I'm sure I'm ruffling feathers with this post. So be it.

[Gnep]

I think this BB should take a standdown, take a deep breath.
This is a hysterical feeding frenzy, everybody tries to outdo the last posting.

It is sad that 2 horses were killed, bu this has alway been the possibility in this sport and the reality.

We have instant information and most people suffer from information overload.

Now we have bosos that have nothing to do with the sport opening surveys and declare the sport for dead.

A shut down of this BB would be the correct thing to do.

Nothing but panic and hystery.

Remember this has always been a tough, hard sport and has always had very hard times.

Instead of geting hysterical, people should help and do their very best to make the sport saver.

Compared to the sport I knew in the 60, 70 and 80 todays sport is so much saver.

Savety is a ongoing project, never ending and yes the sport still has some way to go, but this hysterical behaviour is not going to be helpfull.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

To me, 95% of the accidents can be boiled down to one of two possibilities:


2) Additionally, there seems to be an overall lack of conditioning for the horses, due to the short format. Going 650 for ten minutes is just insane to me. Once more, I bring in the analogies of running - the most elite sprinters in the world run top speed for no more than 12 seconds over very short distances. The most elite marathoners run 8 minute miles for the race. Having optimum times in the 600s is like asking someone to flat out sprint a 5K - it just cannot be done. Something MUST be done to change the format of XC day and encourage proper conditioning.

Sorry, but felt to need to straighten some facts out here.
Your numbers and analogies are way off.

Elite marathoners run sub 5min miles. 5x26= 130min, or 2hrs 10min. An 8 min mile would put you at the 3h30m range, loads of people can run marathons in that time, that's hardly elite.
Horses sprint at rate of over 1000m per min, i.e a 5f race (1000 metres) takes around a minute to run. Though given you are using the extremes of a human 100m runner to a human marathoner, then a better analogy would be comparing a QH to an endurance horse. The top QHs in the world are going at 1150m/min.
A 4 mile chase is run at about 800m per minute and those guys are hardly breaking the sound barrier, so times in 600s is hardly sprinting.

[Mudroom]

I agree drastic measures are due, but I am not sure a standdown is what we need. I think there would be a very different situation here than in the military. In the military the military controls what is done during the standdown and the military bears the cost of the standdown.

In eventing one the biggest cost impacts of a standdown would be the organizers whose event came during that time. That would not be fair. Also who would control what is done during the standdown to make it meaningful?

I harpen back to the many discussions about qualifications and moving up. I would suggest a measurement that would require XC *excellence*, not just survival, at a level before you can move up. Demonstrated excellence and consistent repeatability.

Maybe something like:
Before you could move up a level you would have to have:
6 XC's with no jumping faults in a two year period at the current level, at least 4 must be the horse/rider pair that want to move up
*AND*
If a horse has more than 2 XC's with 40 or more jumping penalties or more, or more than 50% of their XC starts at a level have 20 XC jumping faults or more, then the entire year is classified as a "developmental" year and none of the outings from that year count as qualifying rides. Their clock starts again next year. Sort of like being sent down to the minor leagues in baseball.

My $0.02

[La Gringa]

I think this BB should take a standdown, take a deep breath.
This is a hysterical feeding frenzy, everybody tries to outdo the last posting.

It is sad that 2 horses were killed, bu this has alway been the possibility in this sport and the reality.

We have instant information and most people suffer from information overload.

Now we have bosos that have nothing to do with the sport opening surveys and declare the sport for dead.

A shut down of this BB would be the correct thing to do.

Nothing but panic and hystery.

Remember this has always been a tough, hard sport and has always had very hard times.

Instead of geting hysterical, people should help and do their very best to make the sport saver.

Compared to the sport I knew in the 60, 70 and 80 todays sport is so much saver.

Savety is a ongoing project, never ending and yes the sport still has some way to go, but this hysterical behaviour is not going to be helpfull.

How could we not be in a frenzy with a dead horse or two a week in this sport? It's sickening and horrible, and downright shocking really.

I am surprised that everyone involved in the sport isn't in a complete outrage.

Two upperlevel ADVANCED Olympic Caliber horses are dead. How many more are going to die this year before something is actually done?

How many more riders in Comas and in the ICU?

This is emotional and sensational because it's now Front Page News in the NY Times.. it's a serious problem.

Ok, I am going to stop now... I am sick to my stomach.

:cry:

[RAyers]

Not sure, Reed, calling a halt to all events would serve the entire sport well. As a training level rider I am not at all happy as it is that the rule changes being proposed are affecting our levels when data so far doesn't support the premise that novice and training have any problems whatsoever. Unfortunately we are being painted with the same brush which irritates me no end.

That would be why I would suggest a halt for a short period. Are rules being rushed into effect without true understanding? I would think that part of a halt would be a rules review.

I agree that maybe this could only be applied to P and up? At some point instead of rushing headlong into fixes without understanding, it might be good to stand back and take a breath. Hmmmm, just like many classic trainers tell us to do with our horses!

Reed

[QHEventr]

Just a thought...

I am a big fan of the long format, especially at the UPPER levels. Could it be that the steeplechase was a great lesson in jumping at speed? More for the horse that anything. These horses really need to understand how to jump out of stride, and how to correct an akward take off. Most of the rotational falls occur when a horse does not get his knees up quick enough, or cannot recover from hitting a fence. Also, quite a few of them have occured at "Fly" fences such as tables when the riders are running at the optimum speed of a bit quicker to make up for the slower speeds at the more technical elements. I know that falls still occured when we ran the long format, but there has been a big increase in the last 2 years. We have lost several horses and riders due to rotational falls and something is the cause for that. When I gallop to a big fence, I want to know that my horses will help me out, and that they are quick with their knees and brains. My former advanced horse was not the quickest thinker on course until he ran his first CCI* (long). I saw a BIG change in his ability to think quick, and make decisions after cruising around his first chase. I have ridden both short and long format, and feel strongly that the chase is an opportunity to educate our horses that we have lost. **** horses don't just need to be able to do what is told! They MUST be able to think, and act quickly. These should be above average horses, ones with big hearts, big brains, and of course, some ability. When we tinker with their education process, we are absolutly tinkering with the quality of horse that come out in the end!

Johanna
www.duforteventing.com

[2ndyrgal]

as Mudroom proposed, has to be one of the keys. Am I wrong, or was this the first **** for both horses? Was it the first for the riders of the horses as well? ( I could look this up, but I'm too tired) I think that in order to move up through the levels, any levels, consistancy for horse and rider needs to be addressed. Let's consider that an older horse, might be a "move up" mount for a younger, less experienced rider. Ok, but, let the horse's competition record have some bearing on what the rider can do next. Like instead of 4 events together successfully before moving up, if the horse has done a higher level SUCCESSFULLY with another rider, then make it 3 events, or two double clear. I think that if you are Karen, or Phillip or a rider that has competed at the **** international, olympic level, you can go dillybop around whatever playground on whatever horse you want. But if you are the rest of us (and yes, some people are going to whine about it) you need to have a very strict set of guidelines in order to move up. You need to complete/compete at a certain level, without any jumping penalties or falls for a required amount of time before the PAIR of you can move up. I have not been involved in this as a participant long enough to know what all of the rules are for moving up through the levels, I just know that if you start making absolutely sure that people are qualified based on results, and you make sure that the horse's are qualified, then you have left only rider error (less likely the more you learn) and course design. Let's start fixing the things we can control before someone fixes them for us. Think of the Rolex sponsors, and how well deaths on their signature course plays out in corporate America. They pull out, there isn't going to be a "Rolex". It isn't just about the big picture, but without those big corporate sponsors, it won't make any difference, we'll all just be lucky to find folks willing to put on events. If the powers that be don't want to listen to the "masses" of us little guys, they'll start listening when the big boys with the check books start spending their sponsor dollars somewhere else. Like on Golf. No one dies in golf, (well unless that hawk killing guy shows up again) an no animals are at risk. Sponsor dollars are increasingly hard to come by, and it might be us little people that do the local events and support the team with our dues, but those big $$$$$ are what makes the world go around.

[RAyers]

Won't help. The conscientious people are already doing this and have been for a long time. What we all need to be asking ourselves is how do we improve and protect the sport from stupidity, egos and arrogance. That is what will kill this sport.

I agree. Those egos and arrogant personalities were who I was thinking of when I added that comment.

I am not saying WE need to take time to pin blame or to fix EVERY problem, perhaps a breather where we can gather our thoughts?

Today I did my final gallop before the CIC** at Greenwood. As I pulled up and walked back (OK, jigged) off of the mesa, I asked, "Do I feel ready? Does Shiver fell ready?" My gut told me "yes."

Reed

[SR Rider]

Just something curious...the basket jump was taken off the course within 1 hour
of the end of the show.

[QHEventr]

They generally get a quick start removing all of the portables. Could be they are going over the fence for safty reasons, but most of the "fancier" protables will be moves into storage pretty quick.

Johanna

[RAyers]

I think this BB should take a standdown, take a deep breath.
This is a hysterical feeding frenzy, everybody tries to outdo the last posting.

It is sad that 2 horses were killed, bu this has alway been the possibility in this sport and the reality.

We have instant information and most people suffer from information overload.

Now we have bosos that have nothing to do with the sport opening surveys and declare the sport for dead.

A shut down of this BB would be the correct thing to do.

Nothing but panic and hystery.

Remember this has always been a tough, hard sport and has always had very hard times.

Instead of geting hysterical, people should help and do their very best to make the sport saver.

Compared to the sport I knew in the 60, 70 and 80 todays sport is so much saver.

Savety is a ongoing project, never ending and yes the sport still has some way to go, but this hysterical behaviour is not going to be helpfull.


I agree that Eventing will not die. I agree there is great risk. I agree that folks do get nutty about the risks. I also agree we all need to take a breath, hence a bit of a break, officials, competitors, and BB members. ;)

Reed

[retreadeventer]

That would be why I would suggest a halt for a short period. Are rules being rushed into effect without true understanding? I would think that part of a halt would be a rules review.

I agree that maybe this could only be applied to P and up? At some point instead of rushing headlong into fixes without understanding, it might be good to stand back and take a breath. Hmmmm, just like many classic trainers tell us to do with our horses!

Reed

Given the nearly 30 years I've had experience with the old AHSA, now USEF, and the USEA, which used to be the USCTA, (dating myself) I would say the rules are a DONE DEAL at this point, and waiting or doing something to avoid the powers that be putting them in place would be fairly useless, Reed, despite your good intentions and very meaningful and important work. Not much we can do, if one or two people on that Eventing Committee want something, it goes. Just a hint, we need to purge the Tories....

[RiverBendPol]

Just a thought...

I am a big fan of the long format, especially at the UPPER levels. Could it be that the steeplechase was a great lesson in jumping at speed? More for the horse that anything. These horses really need to understand how to jump out of stride, and how to correct an akward take off. Most of the rotational falls occur when a horse does not get his knees up quick enough, or cannot recover from hitting a fence. Also, quite a few of them have occured at "Fly" fences such as tables when the riders are running at the optimum speed of a bit quicker to make up for the slower speeds at the more technical elements. I know that falls still occured when we ran the long format, but there has been a big increase in the last 2 years. We have lost several horses and riders due to rotational falls and something is the cause for that. When I gallop to a big fence, I want to know that my horses will help me out, and that they are quick with their knees and brains. My former advanced horse was not the quickest thinker on course until he ran his first CCI* (long). I saw a BIG change in his ability to think quick, and make decisions after cruising around his first chase. I have ridden both short and long format, and feel strongly that the chase is an opportunity to educate our horses that we have lost. **** horses don't just need to be able to do what is told! They MUST be able to think, and act quickly. These should be above average horses, ones with big hearts, big brains, and of course, some ability. When we tinker with their education process, we are absolutly tinkering with the quality of horse that come out in the end!

Johanna
www.duforteventing.com

Bingo. I also think these short format horses are getting their brains fried. They are running way too frequently and I BELIEVE, they just can't think clearly any more. If you look carefully at the Rolex pictures, look into the faces of the horses. They are not happy, eager, confident. They have looks of fear and confusion. Not the expression I want on my horse's face when I'm heading down to some massive table...

[c_expresso]

Laine has done Rolex 2x previously. It was Frodo's 1st CCI****, but he jumped around clear last year at Fair HIll CCI*** to take 7th internationally 4th nationally. Laine has ridden 4 UL mounts.

It was Sarah and her horse's first 4*. She had 20 XC jump faults last year at Jersey, and 60 last year at the Fair hill 3*. It appears Mikey was her only major UL mount.

as Mudroom proposed, has to be one of the keys. Am I wrong, or was this the first **** for both horses? Was it the first for the riders of the horses as well? ( I could look this up, but I'm too tired) I think that in order to move up through the levels, any levels, consistancy for horse and rider needs to be addressed. Let's consider that an older horse, might be a "move up" mount for a younger, less experienced rider. Ok, but, let the horse's competition record have some bearing on what the rider can do next. Like instead of 4 events together successfully before moving up, if the horse has done a higher level SUCCESSFULLY with another rider, then make it 3 events, or two double clear. I think that if you are Karen, or Phillip or a rider that has competed at the **** international, olympic level, you can go dillybop around whatever playground on whatever horse you want. But if you are the rest of us (and yes, some people are going to whine about it) you need to have a very strict set of guidelines in order to move up. You need to complete/compete at a certain level, without any jumping penalties or falls for a required amount of time before the PAIR of you can move up. I have not been involved in this as a participant long enough to know what all of the rules are for moving up through the levels, I just know that if you start making absolutely sure that people are qualified based on results, and you make sure that the horse's are qualified, then you have left only rider error (less likely the more you learn) and course design. Let's start fixing the things we can control before someone fixes them for us. Think of the Rolex sponsors, and how well deaths on their signature course plays out in corporate America. They pull out, there isn't going to be a "Rolex". It isn't just about the big picture, but without those big corporate sponsors, it won't make any difference, we'll all just be lucky to find folks willing to put on events. If the powers that be don't want to listen to the "masses" of us little guys, they'll start listening when the big boys with the check books start spending their sponsor dollars somewhere else. Like on Golf. No one dies in golf, (well unless that hawk killing guy shows up again) an no animals are at risk. Sponsor dollars are increasingly hard to come by, and it might be us little people that do the local events and support the team with our dues, but those big $$$$$ are what makes the world go around.

[Gnep]

La Gringa,
That horses die is very tragic, very bad and we have to do what ever it takes to prevent it.

But, this panic and hysteria that is now going on, just denies the facts of the sport and is caused by the information Hwy.
It seams to me that some are just waiting for the OMG not again and once written others will follow instantly.

There has been a denial of missunderstanding of the sport for some time.

When I answered PWY question a few years ago, most people got upset.
PWY asked would you use one of your horses that you bred at UL- Eventing and I gave her what my old coach told me, this sport has horses and riders for breakfast.

When I was a teen I got my first invitation to a 3 day, they were very tough at that time.
My riding instructor sat me down and gave me a 30 minutes speach and it ended with the breakfast thing. Before that he told me that I would get one of my horses killed, if I would go that rout and it happened and that I would spent at least 6 month in the hospital at some point, which happened.

The failure of todays Eventing Community is to understand what can happen and what will happen.
And when it happens they are like a bunch of chickens that got their heads cut of, panic and hysteria.

Every time I go into the Start Box I hear my old coach and understand that I have 10 seconds to leave or take the live of my horse and my own live in my hands. I have clear instructions for my animals in my trailer, all the telephone numbers and always a signed blanco check so my animals can be taken care of, I understand what I am doing.

Does that mean, that I take the status quo for granted, NO. But I do not sit down and get hysterical, but think about ways to make things saver and in 3 weeks I will Event go into the start box and hear that guy from 30 plus years ago, with the full understanding what he meant

[Rallycairn]

La Gringa,
That horses die is very tragic, very bad and we have to do what ever it takes to prevent it.

But, this panic and hysteria that is now going on, just denies the facts of the sport and is caused by the information Hwy.


Gnep, I'm just not seeing anyone being panicky or hysterical here. Actually, I would say that more people are finally acknowledging what you say you acknowledged long ago, that eventing kills horses (and riders).

But the fatality rate seems to be increasing; understandably, this trend is leading more people to question safety, be that in terms of improving course design, fence design, horse & rider qualifications, etc. -- or possibly even deciding whether they as individuals feel right participating in a sport that may well kill their beloved horses.

And I don't think it's hysterical to acknowledge that the fatalities are increasing; that is not a result of the information superhighway. Maybe more people are aware of it sooner, but the spread of information didn't cause this. You say it caused panic and hysteria, but again, I'm not seeing either of those here. Concern, great concern, maybe even outrage - but who's being hysterical? The only really extreme post(s) might be the poll about what to do after the demise of eventing, but I found that kind of blackly humorous, not panic-stricken or hysterical.

As several have said, if eventers themselves don't change something, an outside group like an extreme animal rights group is going to come in and have a huge impact on things. Then we might unfortunately see some of that panic and hysteria.

[Classic Melody]

I don't know, guys, I don't know. Until I watched Frodo flip at the flower basket from the other side of the rope I was convinced there was an institutional problem going on with eventing. I thought for sure that if we dug deep enough we would find a unifying thread under all the falls, and if we pulled on that thread they would all come together in an understandable package, and we would see the solution.

Now I am convinced they are all just random. Laine fell at a jump she should not have fallen at. It was a fair question for the level. Whether it was bad luck or a rider misjudgment we may not know, but it was not because the USEA or Mark Phillips or some other boogieman.

The best I can suggest is we need more stringent qualifications for the upper levels. There were many beautiful trips at Rolex this weekend, and I thought the course was absolutely fair. It was redolent with forgiving brushes and rolltops and logs, the kind of natural jumps we have been crowing about. But not all the riders were up for it, and overwhelmingly those riders were the youngest ones there.

This sounds rather unemotional, but believe me I was a wreck after witnessing Laine and Frodo's crash. It was the worst thing I have ever seen in my life and I really thought they were both dead on the field. Seeing Frodo go down the second time was heartwrenching. I had to walk away at that point. Thank God the last riders were all seasoned pros on seasoned horses. I can't imagine what they were all thinking and feeling.

[ksbadger]

If I put my other hat on – I help test aircraft in my other life – I can’t help thinking that the majority of posters have no idea what’s involved in a Safety Stand Down. As said previously, it is malfunctioning aircraft or piece of equipment, then a stoppage is pretty much a slam dunk. If the root cause is not so easily understood, it can take several months of careful investigation followed by even more time taken to ensure that the final training package is effective and prevents further loss. The last thing that is permitted to happen is just let everyone sit around doing nothing.

The other thing to consider is the effect on the venues. They have already paid out a lot of money for judges & TDs, airfares etc – any stoppage could prove disastrous. Far from the end, the season is just starting for the majority of Mid-American & northern Areas.

Finally taking another leaf from my aviation experience, on most aircraft forums they are continually reminding you that not all posters may have the best interests of the forum members at heart. Beware agents provocateurs!

[RAyers]

Nobody is blaming anybody here but when there are 4 horse deaths and 2 severe rider injuries in 2 consecutive major competitions, that implies that something is not random nor coincidence. This is a great time for the USEF/USEA to take control of the situation before the media and others do.

Yes, the course was good and there were many excellent rides, however, Rolex now has 2 years of bad press in front of a national audience, many who are uneducated about horses and eventing in particular. To them they don't know nor remember a good/great ride.

I will also counter with the video (as well as some personal accounts from those near the fence) of Frodo does show something that does imply an "institutional" (as you put it) problem, however it was NOT the fence or course. It was most likely an element of the culture that has pervaded eventing now that it is a sport rather than a gentleman's test.

I agree that rider qualifications as well as past rider performances (e.g. previous crashes, horse injuries, etc.) may be a way to "vet" top level riders.

Reed


I don't know, guys, I don't know. Until I watched Frodo flip at the flower basket from the other side of the rope I was convinced there was an institutional problem going on with eventing. I thought for sure that if we dug deep enough we would find a unifying thread under all the falls, and if we pulled on that thread they would all come together in an understandable package, and we would see the solution.

Now I am convinced they are all just random. Laine fell at a jump she should not have fallen at. It was a fair question for the level. Whether it was bad luck or a rider misjudgment we may not know, but it was not because the USEA or Mark Phillips or some other boogieman.

The best I can suggest is we need more stringent qualifications for the upper levels. There were many beautiful trips at Rolex this weekend, and I thought the course was absolutely fair. It was redolent with forgiving brushes and rolltops and logs, the kind of natural jumps we have been crowing about. But not all the riders were up for it, and overwhelmingly those riders were the youngest ones there.

This sounds rather unemotional, but believe me I was a wreck after witnessing Laine and Frodo's crash. It was the worst thing I have ever seen in my life and I really thought they were both dead on the field. Seeing Frodo go down the second time was heartwrenching. I had to walk away at that point. Thank God the last riders were all seasoned pros on seasoned horses. I can't imagine what they were all thinking and feeling.

[Classic Melody]

Reed, please feel free to contact me privately to talk about eyewitness accounts. Truthfully I am not comfortable relaying all of my opinions on this publicly.

That said, about random vs. institutional: Humans are pattern-seeking creatures. Sometimes we see patterns where there are none.

Nobody is blaming anybody here but when there are 4 horse deaths and 2 severe rider injuries in 2 consecutive major competitions, that implies that something is not random nor coincidence. This is a great time for the USEF/USEA to take control of the situation before the media and others do.

Yes, the course was good and there were many excellent rides, however, Rolex now has 2 years of bad press in front of a national audience, many who are uneducated about horses and eventing in particular. To them they don't know nor remember a good/great ride.

I will also counter with the video (as well as some personal accounts from those near the fence) of Frodo does show something that does imply an "institutional" (as you put it) problem, however it was NOT the fence or course. It was most likely an element of the culture that has pervaded eventing now that it is a sport rather than a gentleman's test.

I agree that rider qualifications as well as past rider performances (e.g. previous crashes, horse injuries, etc.) may be a way to "vet" top level riders.

Reed

[RAyers]

The other thing to consider is the effect on the venues. They have already paid out a lot of money for judges & TDs, airfares etc – any stoppage could prove disastrous. Far from the end, the season is just starting for the majority of Mid-American & northern Areas.

Maybe, as other posters have suggested, there could be a halt at the top levels for a bit while an understanding is developed. This would not impact BN-P HTs as these are the primary supporters (financially and otherwise) of events.

I am getting ready to go to the CIC** at Greenwood this week. To be honest, if the USEF told me tomorrow, "We are halting all 2-star and above for 2 weeks, while we review all information." and they really meant it, even though it would most likely mean no 2 stars for me for the rest of the year due to scheduling, I would do it.

I too, have aviation experience (rockets) and have been through several "stand downs." Even in the ones where, "act of god" was the final result, a stand down gave everyone a chance to review processes, procedures and general education of all involved. This is a high risk sport, just like being a test pilot, so why not take a page from an industry where the risk of death is in the 1 in 4 range?

Maybe I am seeing that it is time for the sport to be run as a business such as NASCAR, F1, MLB, NBA, NFL?

Reed

[melodiousaphony]

Maybe I am seeing that it is time for the sport to be run as a business such as NASCAR, F1, MLB, NBA, NFL?


I think Denny said something on a thread to this end which made me laugh last night because my boyfriend is TOTALLY confused about the top levels of eventing. What he doesn't understand is the ability to just (assuming you've met whatever qualifications) go out and compete against professional level athletes. He is not trying to imply that "amateurs" that are just as good don't deserve to play, but as a major league baseball fan, I think the idea confuses him.

[jumpforjoy]

Well I am glad Reed mentioned Nascar and the other sports....can you imagine the public outrage if those sports had the same level of deaths as eventing? Do you think the public would quietly sit by as their young drivers or favorite stars died or sustained life threatening injuries in competition after competition? One person died in Nascar a few years ago , and nascar regulators changed things so quick it took your breath away. Everyone complained about the changes, from competitors to spectators, but the changes stood and there have been no more deaths. Granted, equestrian sports are different on some levels, but Eventing regulators need to look at other high risk sports and see how they dealt with death and injury. They can not just stand by and wring their hands. Change needs to happen. This level of risk has never been acceptable in any sport , and eventing is no different. Some change is better than none. If you don't think so, then stand at the fence when a horse and rider go down. It is not a hysterical response...it is a responsible response. I resent the implication that people who are not willing to see this kind of carnage are thin skinned and hysterical.
I had such a wonderful time at Rolex this last weekend. It all seemed like the old days when I went..great jumping, great people, and beautiful venue. Then two horses died. Someone fix this problem; I want my sport back.

[LISailing]

For several years I was chairman of the safety committe for our local charitable unrecognized event (given the quality it should be recognized). The levels were elementary to novice. The xc course were designed by a local retired FEI judge and we always hired an USEA TD and PGJ.

Given all the preparation, we still had rider falls and injurys at these levels, albeit mostly in stadium or warm-up. Falls of horses were less likely but still happened. Thankfully, I am no longer on the safety committe, which is a stressful position to be in during event day.

I'm not sure what a moritorium would accomplish, except to allow the eventing community to breathe, reflect, and basically start from scratch.
I wonder if those in the know and power of this institution have thought to go back to the basic origins of the sport to review the rules initially imposed. To really look at the evolution that the sport has taken. To look at the real reasons rules were changed. To honestly evaluate if the rule changes were for conveince or improved safety and to look to see what was the real result of the change. Politics and personnal egos aside, take a good hard look at the sport.

So many rules have been change over the last thirty-five years, that the sport I grew up riding versus the sport as we now know it are very, very different. The most common rider injury in the the 70's was a broken collarbone. I believe the horse injury death rate was slightly higher, but veterinary medicine has come a long way providing more optimist outlook for these horses. Remember a bad year for the horse was the Mexico City olymipic games. Nasty weather led to some pretty nasty falls.

In addition, times they be a changing and the countryside is a lot different from that of the 20th and 21st century. The keeping of horses and riders is much different today than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago, and attitudes have changed. Remember, history has a tendency to repeat itself and we humans have a difficult time to learn from our mistakes, mainly because of our egos.:mad:

[RiverBendPol]

Keep in mind, the last major change to eventing was not terribly long ago-the removal of roads and tracks and steeplechase. I think you'll find injuries have increased significantly since that change took place. THEN the rules started changing like wildfire.

[DLee]

I think Mudroom's qualification type list is a great one.

I've also pretty much come over to the traditional Three Day camp, in thinking that A,B and C gave more opportunities for horses not ready to be pulled out before cross country even started. Plus the factor of not doing so many competitions. If a horse had a heart issue, I am thinking maybe it would be pulled in the 10 minute box before it set out. Or maybe it would collapse on Steeplechase, I don't know. :confused:

But I DO think it makes entering an event more intimidating and more work, and therefore more preparation is done. Just my thoughts.

I also know that before the internet I heard about very few deaths of horses and riders. But that doesn't mean they weren't happening.

[Ponyclubrocks]

I've stayed out of the debate for some time now as I am mostly a spectator these days when it comes to eventing but something must have been working in my subconcious....I went to Lexington this weekend, got down there on Friday, had all my tickets, hotel etc. Was at the horse park Friday and walked around the XC course...and decided to leave. I just didn't want to watch any more. I gave away my remaining tickets, packed up and drove home Saturday morning. I didn't check results until just now and seeing the news just makes me sick. I'm done with eventing...even as a spectator I just can't find any joy in it anymore.

[bip]

That said, about random vs. institutional: Humans are pattern-seeking creatures. Sometimes we see patterns where there are none.

That is because if there is no pattern, if there is nothing we can do to significantly reduce the deaths and maiming, eventing cannot continue.

Acceptable risk for eventing should be that it is *remotely possible* to die or have your horse die, not that for each UL event, you have an equal or lesser chance of winning than dying or losing your horse. You should not look around the warm up ring and wonder who won't be there at next month's event because her horse died or because she is still in the ICU.

[findeight]

I also know that before the internet I heard about very few deaths of horses and riders. But that doesn't mean they weren't happening.


Well, before I speak to that and admitting I am an outsider, I will say I do NOT think a stand down is the answer as I don't think the problems are unknown to the powers that be. Stopping some kid from jumping around a baby course somewhere they have been prepping for for 3 months isn't going to accomplish anything. Problem is at the top levels.

As for the above quote...as an older person I read horse publications (like COTH), love horse sports so follow most of the disciplines and have lived for the last 13 years an easy drive from Rolex and the KHP-never went. Why? because almost EVERY year there is a dead horse. One year there were 2. Dead rider in the *** they used to run maybe 6 or 7 years back. The single Event I attended was back at Ledyard in 93 or so...maybe a **. Missed the dead horse, thanks be to the Lord. Saw a horriffic rotational fall at a table (left long, knocked the legs out midway over, skidded across and somersaulted off) both staggered away but I am sure that was a career ender for the horse. Never went back.

Sad thing is that Eventing does not seem to keep many statistics on horse injury and death. Some effort at rider death and serious injury but the horses..well...skimpy records. Not even sure you can find the statistics for deaths at the Olympics and, again, almost every games. Like the ones that drowned back in Mexico City. Wonder how many we will lose in the heat of Hong Kong...

So, IMO, a stand down/moratorium serves no purpose because UL types that have been in the sport for decades already know. So do those running the sport.

Maybe just a look in the mirror asking WHY you never hear the really top riders publically ask for frangible fence design or drop the fear of looking like a whuss and SPEAK UP instead of the old "accidents always happen at Rolex/other top level events". Pull up instead of kick on?

Honestly, if the Eventing community does not admit there are too many dead horses, somebody else will point that out to them. Hope to God it's not the Rolex Corp or the state and local donation supported KHP.

[RAyers]

Findeight,

Let me present the other side of the coin, what if the USEF/USEA said we will have a moratorium to understand what may be happening. Wouldn't that suggest they/we were "looking in the mirror?"





Maybe just a look in the mirror asking WHY you never hear the really top riders publically ask for frangible fence design or drop the fear of looking like a whuss and SPEAK UP instead of the old "accidents always happen at Rolex/other top level events". Pull up instead of kick on?

Honestly, if the Eventing community does not admit there are too many dead horses, somebody else will point that out to them. Hope to God it's not the Rolex Corp or the state and local donation supported KHP.

[Picasso]

Reed's original point is well taken. I am a key member of root cause investigations for incidents at the Chemical plant where I work. Having been closely associated with Safety in such an environment I have come to believe there is no such thing as an accident - something triggered this, whether its the design of the course, the fence, or the riders simply not being skilled enough to ride at the level in which they are riding. I am not suggesting this in Laine's case, I don't know, I don't have all the facts in front of me to give an educated opinion.

It would be very interesting if we could, in fact, get safety professionals from outside industries as well as those knowledgeable in our sport to do a "stand down" and really analyze the situation unemotionally. We may be surprised at what we find (or we may not, as a spectator at this year's Rolex I was shocked at the amount of poor riding I witnessed in all 3 phases). What we need to be willing to do, however, is hear what comes of something like this - good and bad. We may need to accept different fence design, a revamping of the time aspect AND that you need to be able to do more than simply be a passenger on a great horse to ride a course such as this.

[fourhorses]

Permit me some errors, as I haven't had the time to read through this entire post.

I think a stand-down is entirely fitting and suitable given the events of the past year. In fact, I was thinking this very thing when I read the front piece of this bulletin board. To paraphrase Swift -- things cannot stand the way they are. I'm all for supporting a stand-down and a thorough investigation into ways in which the sport can right itself, for the benefit of all.

While I'm heartened that the eventing community (or at least a goodly portion of it) has been endeavoring to heal themselves, I'm also a bit taken aback by the offensively/deffensive reactions of some that seem to support the present status quo. I'm taken aback by the awful, condescending queries which not only roil up controversy, but denigrate (and not just eventing) -- this isn't the eventing I remember, or that I wanted to come back to with my kids; the dangers seem the least of things right now, just a symptom of a bigger problem.

And to be quite honest I'm still smarting from the snubbing I recieved a month or so back from a "serious eventer" (I thought we were having a conversation concerning the present state of the sport, and I was voicing my opinions) who remarked that I should have no say or opinion as both my children, my horses, and yours truly just weren't talented or classy/rich/big time enough to even be attempting eventing -- truthfully, I have NEVER been talked at by an event rider in such a way prior to this, and it seriously made me think that perhaps eventing has really changed both materially and in spirit, and not for the better:no:


But then again, perhaps this eventer I spoke with was correct, and I don't have a dog in this fight after all. Perhaps my kids and I will go do some other horse sport (or perhaps we just won't compete at all, and leave it to the folks with serious money and free time) and I'll build some xc type jumps and we'll "play" over them when the mood strikes, and not care what happens. Open invitation to all as long as you bring your manners and your horsemanship.

[findeight]

Findeight,

Let me present the other side of the coin, what if the USEF/USEA said we will have a moratorium to understand what may be happening. Wouldn't that suggest they were "looking in the mirror?"


Sure. Either way. My point was there is really no secret formula...the problems are known.

Maybe it would do some good for those lower level riders who may not be aware what a rotational fall is or how many go down at the upper levels, or how it seems to be expected you will lose a horse if you Event. I speak with some of them and they don't really know, defending "accidents" as "rare" not realizing they are not rare and accident=dead horse.

Maybe change can come from the bottom up here. The top seem to have their heads in the sand.

[RAyers]

I absolutely agree that there are no "freak accidents." We can find causes and answers. They may point out a simple fix or an ugly truth that many won't admit. I don't know. I just believe that now is the time to be very proactive simply because there is no straight forward answer or solution. To me the currently situation is like trying to fix a car while it is on the highway at 70 mph.

Reed


Sure. Either way. My point was there is really no secret formula...the problems are known.

Maybe it would do some good for those lower level riders who may not be aware what a rotational fall is or how many go down at the upper levels, or how it seems to be expected you will lose a horse if you Event. I speak with some of them and they don't really know, defending "accidents" as "rare" not realizing they are not rare and accident=dead horse.

Maybe change can come from the bottom up here. The top seem to have their heads in the sand.

[BreckGirlKY]

I'm a lower level eventer and have been for about ten years now and I associate a risk with the sport even at my level. I realize when I walk into the start box on a novice course there's always a possibility I may not walk away from it - it's the nature of horse sports. But I've always thought the risk of an accident while eventing is far less for me or my horse (an OTTB who definitely has a safer life now than on the track). Thoroughbreds run around a track without jumps and more of them die in one year than the eventing community in 10 - and after working for the NTRA for more than 5 years I can tell you the Kentucky Derby doesn't have a hard time finding sponsorships. Groups like PETA have much bigger fish to fry than the eventing community. Just do a quick search online and you can find many more heartbreaking statistics.


At Arlington Park in Chicago, the '06 summer race meet was devastated by the catastrophic breakdowns of 17 horses in racing and three during morning training hours. In California there were more than 240 fatalities at horse tracks between 2003 and 2005.

I'm definitely not saying things shouldn't be evaluated in our community, I think the change in the format needs to be taken into consideration, but I also think in any level of eventing uncontrolable accidents will always occur.

[YRAP Mom]

but rotational falls do occur at lower levels. I watched a training level rider get thrown clear of her horse but suffer a concussion, broken finger, severely strained ligaments and tendons in both wrists, abraisions and bruises. She was lucky! I don't think the lower levels are immune, just not as fast, big or consequential.

[thumbsontop]

I do agree that it's coming time to really do something.

My 13 yr old has seen all of the recent press and has NO desire to compete above training. I don't blame her. I can't even say "That's so rare". She was jump judging this past weekend at Morven and had an intermediate rider fall at her jump - ambulance required. Again, tough to explain. (It was a busy morning for the ambulance/vet there).

I can honestly say I'm not a huge fan of pushing a horse, or any animal, to it's physical limit for the sake of competition, and I do agree that you should somehow need to qualify to go up a division (horse & rider) - even at the lower levels.

We've talked in the past about our ideas for change. Hopefully it will happen NOW, rather than creating a committee to look into it and do a 3 yr study, etc.

As sad as it is, how do the numbers compare to injuries/deaths in horse racing - for both horse and rider? Sweeping one under the rug and addressing the other would somehow not be right...

[CoolMeadows]

I'm in complete agreement with JER. Don't think PETA hasn't already taken notice, they certainly have. A safety standown sounds like a reasonable starting point as doing nothing looks callous to those hardcore groups and guys, if you don't do something now, it's going to be done for you very soon and no doubt it won't be to your liking. It's absolutely UNACCEPTABLE to have statements in papers about the cost of frangible pins being too high to be a viable option. There is no price on a life, horse or human and these are the type of statements that are catching the attention of outside groups.

[Hidden]

I don't want to run riot, but I am in agreement that we need to do something that says as a group we are wanting real action. When I read the description of the course I was a bit worried about some of the questions.. but was hoping and praying. Could this have been stopped with frangible pins? No one has said... But you know I'm starting to think there is no room for tables and other known rotational fall objects on the courses. Not sure what exactly to do, but we need to stand up and do something. As a lowly smurf myself, with lots of smurf friends, we are ready to Stand up and not go if needed. But I agree that it hurts our little organizers more than it impacts the UL... however, we need to be heard! What would it take? What has a Big Noise that lots can participate in? I would guess a standdown would be noticed.

[poltroon]

What worries me the most is how many seasoned riders and seasoned horses have had serious accidents. To me it feels random - like the people and horses getting hurt are just plucked out of a hat. This cannot continue.

In the old days, yes, there were a lot of accidents - but many of them could be attributed to conditions, like unusually heavy or slick mud. One could say they shouldn't have run, and many did after the fact, but you could console yourself with, "Well, I'd have the sense not to run Badminton after a pouring rain" whether it was actually true or not.

The accidents we're seeing now, it seems to me, are much more frequently happening to people and horses under what should be perfect conditions.

So that suggests to me that we don't understand "perfect conditions" after all.

As for the increase in starters at the FEI level since 2002: it's worth noting that it used to be that FEI only recognized the long format. I can't remember the exact year that the CIC was introduced, but since then, a lot of competitions that used to be run as horse trials are now run with FEI standing. I'm not sure that the number of starters in all events has gone up so much, and if they have, it would be interesting to note whether the number of horse and rider combinations has gone up, or whether an increase in starters is reflecting that the same combinations are running more often.

[RAyers]

I don't want to run riot, but I am in agreement that we need to do something that says as a group we are wanting real action. When I read the description of the course I was a bit worried about some of the questions.. but was hoping and praying. Could this have been stopped with frangible pins? No one has said... But you know I'm starting to think there is no room for tables and other known rotational fall objects on the courses. Not sure what exactly to do, but we need to stand up and do something. As a lowly smurf myself, with lots of smurf friends, we are ready to Stand up and not go if needed. But I agree that it hurts our little organizers more than it impacts the UL... however, we need to be heard! What would it take? What has a Big Noise that lots can participate in? I would guess a standdown would be noticed.


Again, I am not saying we need to boycott Eventing. We do need to continue to push those in governance for change, be it mail, phone, email, personal communication. That is the standing up we need to do.

I was suggesting it might be good for the USEF/USEA to step back from trying to run this full plate when the possibility of the plate cracking is happening.

A "stand down" is when the management stops all work in order to investigate incidents before continuing with operations. We all most recentyl saw it with the variety of airplane stand downs required by the FAA as it realized it allowed too many planes to fly UNSAFELY. Yes, it screwed up people's schedules and cost the airlines money but it also went to making air travle SAFER.

Reed

[PCEventing]

How can anyone really be surprised??? There are alot of up and coming riders now who did not event in the olden days when you learned how to bravely gallop fences out of stride. We took the education of the horses and riders away by gradually eliminating steeplechase and "slowing them down" by increasing the technicallity. Now our younger riders do not know how to jump and come under paced at the bigger spread fences...evidenced from Lanie's last fall at Rolex several years ago where her horse bounced the footbridge when it was presented in a nearly collected canter for a fence that demands a balanced galloping attack. Not to pick on Lanie personally but it's a very large problem at nearly every show I have seen lately.

[frugalannie]

Reed, I've been thinking about this thread all day. While it makes me sad that these issues are on the table, I'm proud that eventers are willing to face the challenge of identifying reasonable actions to address them.

FWIW, here's my suggestion, to be applied in concert with a stand down or, I hope, on a more permanent basis.

I believe that there needs to be an investigatory team established by the USEA to review and examine the causes of all major accidents, human or equine, that occur on course. I feel strongly that this team must not be comprised of the "usual suspects", but must have an identified core group of a veterinarian, an upper level rider, an engineer, a safety expert, a statistician and/or epidemiologist, someone versed in sports injuries and probably a lawyer to make sure that any findings are worded carefully (just sort of kidding about the last). The core team should be reimbursed for expenses and also receive a stipend. They should be appointed for a time period: one year, preferably two or three, so they are beholden to no one for their assignments. I'm reasonably confident that willing volunteers can be identified in the ranks of USEA members who have many of these skills.

Their assignment would be to convene immediately after a major incident (definition to be developed) whether virtually or in person. They must be empowered to undertake whatever investigation is deemed necessary including: review of veterinary records, necropsy of a horse, collection of any video record, interviews with fence judges, riders, coaches, spectators, officials, etc. If none of them can physically be at the event, they must be able to "deputize" an official to collect information for them, but at least one team member would have to make a site visit within, say, a week of the incident. Then the team will be responsible for the review and analysis. They will follow an established format requiring that key elements be examined, but will have the flexibility to extend their investigations in unexpected directions, should the situation warrant.

I'm sure others will have more ideas than I. I'm using as my model the CDC teams of investigative pathologists and other physicians who literally leave at a moment's notice when a health crisis is suspected.

I would like to think that this team could be funded by grants from manufacturers of safety equipment and other sources, but think it would be important for the USEA to find funding as well. It is time to put money where our mouths are, so to speak, and collect accurate information about the causes of significant accidents. Then and only then can we begin to address them.

[sandyliz]

I was just about to offer up a similar investigatory team suggestion. Any incident - fall or significant injury - involving rider/horse would require an official review. I wonder if it wouldn't be unreasonable to have it at all levels at sanctioned events. Having video would offer invaluable information. Maybe official videographers could be added to the necessary on-site personnel? Expensive, but.....

In hospitals, even near misses involving patient safety qualify for write-ups. Not the same venue, I know, but the outcomes being spoken of are. Systems using "lessons learned" tools can become proactive with evidence based reasons for change.

[Gnep]

Reed,
You compare apples and oranges. If a horse drops dead on course because it is a bleeder or has heart problems than it is rather unreasonable to throw those cases into the same bucket with horses that get killed through crashes.

Those are completly unrelated cases.

Equaly it is mute to talk about very experianced riders that think to much about their skills and disregard commen sense and get themself nearly killed. One can not fight stupidity or arogance, not even legislate it.

Now we got CICs 3 stars, CIC 3 W and CCI. We tripled the probability and with that we tripled the possibility of loses.

I am rather surprised, or not realy, everybody is hyping up those Events, how many threads before Rolex concerning Rolex and everybody forgets how high the risque is and than everybody is upset.

Gee I am sure glad that the Super Pony got through it alright. Can't imaging what would happen on this BB if it would have been killed.
Everybody would call for The President, 9/11 in Eventing.

[2ndyrgal]

So maybe we do need sort of an NTSB (investigates ALL air crashes) for eventing. Make it a regional team, vet, old timer, structural engineer, whathave you. I don't think you need to water down eventing so much it isn't the same (think field hunters vs. show hunters) but even the most casual observer can see there are way more catastrophic accidents than their used to be. ( I know someone has a huge, antique, COTH collection, that would at least list the bad wrecks of old.) And whoever is designing the course in Hong Kong better damn sure get it right. Gad, with the weather, they could afford to dilute it a bit, the weather should be the great equalizer.

[oldbutnotdead]

Although I understand the reasoning and emotion, I believe that a "stand down" would harm our sport. Running an event requires a great deal of time and money to be spent far in advance of the actual event. It would seem likely that a hiatus would create a financial burden upon events, and perhaps engender hard feelings.

[4Martini]

I think after reading all of this we need to put a methodology behind this. There seem to be a bunch of quality type people on board - so how about six sigma. It's a defined method for solving problems. There are different phases

Define, Measure, Analyze, Implement, Control

Here's a write up:
http://www.isixsigma.com/library/content/six_sigma_dmaic_quickref_define.asp

The critical first stage is defining the problem trying to be solved and who needs to be on the team.

I see a lot of posts where people are measuring, analyzing and heck controling already-

But I have not yet seen a clear problem statement.

So, Why are you here? Why are you posting? What do you think the problem that we need to solve is?

For me the problem is that too many horses and riders are dying or getting seriously injured pursing what is supposed to be a sport.

Do you agree, or do you think the problem statement needs to be something else?

Once we all agree on WHAT the problem is, it's a lot easier to pull a team to work on it.

Just my 2cents from dealing with problems ALL DAY LONG...

This is not directly related to a stand down.

Heck, maybe we should even make this a poll. If we all agree we can pass on to the usea that 400 people agreed that we have a problem of X and it needs to be solved. What do you think?

[frugalannie]

4Martini, if you asked me to define the problem at this point, I would say that there are too many serious incidents occuring among eventers. Yes, it's broadly worded, but my concern would be that by narrowing the problem to less than that, we leave out many incidents that might illuminate the learning process. By examining the incidents, it should be possible to begin to sort them out by type (horse injury, rider injury for example) then by severity, presumptive cause, contributing cause, etc.

Gnep, this time I disagree with you: I think horse incidents that do not appear to be related to crashes also need to be studied, and that the team needs to have access to vet records and necropsy results. There are those who suggest that the short format is related to an increase in horse morbidity and mortality. How else would we be able to find out? There could be other reasons, but we care enough about our equine partners, I think, that we need to study what happens to them, too.

My gut is that there are several factors involved. Many have been mentioned: rider error, fence design, course design, inadequate skill set, bad luck, etc. But just as with airplane crashes and medical errors, you study every one in an effort to identify the causes of each. From that you identify methods to address those causes that you can, and keep studying because the process never ends.

I'll be interested in other thoughts on the subject.

[ksbadger]

The problem is that, even for an incident at a top event, there's probably no real physical evidence as to exactly what happened. You might have a short piece of video or a couple of shots of it but nothing like the amount of data (angles, speed, accelerations etc) that would be required to really analyze what happened. There are small accelerometer packs that could be carried but the cost and, given the thankfully rare occurence, small chance of getting any meaningful data. Contrast even a small aircraft that may record over a hundred parameters on its flight recorder.

This problem was, I beleive, discussed at length back on the old forum when the original series of incidents happened in the UK and came to similar conclusions that it would be very difficult to get real data. That does not stop USEA or any responsible body from coming up with additional training or information to better prevent future accidents - for example what about a frangible pin installation demo at the AECs together with a discussion of jump design incorporating them (or not).

[frugalannie]

I understand your point, KSBadger, and I agree. But my issue is that we aren't even collecting and reviewing the information that is or might be available currently in any consistent fashion. Statistics are used that come from limited databases (FEI competitions only, horse injuries not included, etc.). If we are ever going to learn more, we need to start collecting every bit of information available on every incident now. I'm sure some smart person could figure out how to estimate speed from a video record. Maybe someone who can predict planetary trajectories?

Anyway, I think an education effort would be far more effective if it could be shown that rider error (an example only) resulted in these three specific falls, and the grim details could be discussed. Otherwise, it's just another general disussion that those with egos and arrogance will believe doesn't pertain to them. That may happen anyway, but specifics have a tendency to worm their way past that. It may also help dispell the "&%@# happens" mindset.

[Hidden]

I think my point is that there seem to be alot of folks that are willing to take some drastic measures to assure that they get noticed. That the world knows and that "the powers that be" get a heads up. I'm starting to think that there needs to be some sort of wake up call from the masses of smurfs. I don't believe that any of the powers will call for a stand down, and I'm starting to wonder if anything will happen at all. Perhaps we need polls, petitions whatever. Perhaps we need a sit-in, a mass rally protest? I don't know, but I feel there should be some real "HELLO OUT THERE, DO SOMETHING NOW" statement for us.

[RAyers]

Sure I can do orbit trajectories but ksbadger can do the gamma function about a lifting body! :D

You hit the nail in the head. We need data to understand the problems before we try to answer the questions!

Reed


I understand your point, KSBadger, and I agree. But my issue is that we aren't even collecting and reviewing the information that is or might be available currently in any consistent fashion. Statistics are used that come from limited databases (FEI competitions only, horse injuries not included, etc.). If we are ever going to learn more, we need to start collecting every bit of information available on every incident now. I'm sure some smart person could figure out how to estimate speed from a video record. Maybe someone who can predict planetary trajectories?

Anyway, I think an education effort would be far more effective if it could be shown that rider error (an example only) resulted in these three specific falls, and the grim details could be discussed. Otherwise, it's just another general disussion that those with egos and arrogance will believe doesn't pertain to them. That may happen anyway, but specifics have a tendency to worm their way past that. It may also help dispell the "&%@# happens" mindset.

[JER]

I understand your point, KSBadger, and I agree. But my issue is that we aren't even collecting and reviewing the information that is or might be available currently in any consistent fashion. Statistics are used that come from limited databases (FEI competitions only, horse injuries not included, etc.). If we are ever going to learn more, we need to start collecting every bit of information available on every incident now. I'm sure some smart person could figure out how to estimate speed from a video record. Maybe someone who can predict planetary trajectories?

Anyway, I think an education effort would be far more effective if it could be shown that rider error (an example only) resulted in these three specific falls, and the grim details could be discussed. Otherwise, it's just another general disussion that those with egos and arrogance will believe doesn't pertain to them. That may happen anyway, but specifics have a tendency to worm their way past that. It may also help dispell the "&%@# happens" mindset.

Very, very well said.

[Jumper_Dad]

AGREE 100% -- as our governing and regulatory entities, the USEF and USEA need to take immediate and positive action at this point -- your suggestion is right on target. Recommend every eventer from all levels email Mr. Baumgardner with our concerns as the fate of our beloved sport as well as our eventing friends, colleagues, and beloved event horses hangs in the balance...more discussions about so-called 'rider responsibility' or just plain 'bad luck' is equivalent to burying our heads in the sand on these issues. There are no easy answers but many steps our community can take to make our sport safer -- pointing our our low-mortality rate compared to other high-risk activities and repeating the quote "that you can't make eventing safer than life in general" -- albeit accurate -- will not keep the "wolves at bay"...eventing as we know and love it is 'in-extremis' and the USEA needs to take prompt and measurable action TODAY and demonstrate the courage and foresight to save our sport from extinction from so-called risk-management experts and animal rights zealots and other who say it's too dangerous and cruel and unusual treatment but have never experienced the pure joy of galloping xcntry and jumping solid obstacles.

[RAyers]

What impresses me, at least with many of the responses here, is that people are beginning to ask real questions and are looking to be proactive. What is even better is if we push the USEF and USEA along those lines by being involved with the governance as Jumper_Dad states.

While I know at times I scream "Revolution," I believe that revolution can come from inside.

People want riders to be accountable. Well, part of the accountability is taking responsibility in the governance of the sport and NOT accepting satus quo (ever). That is as much being an advocate for your horse as pulling up when you know it is not your day or having the vet out 4 times the week before a competition.

Reed

[MusicityBound]

I am just heartsick over what happened at Rolex this past weekend. I witnessed it all and I hope I never see a rotational fall again. I also believe the lower levels are not the problem. I announce many cross country events in Kentucky and I have never seen a major accident at novice and below. While they did post pictures of the accident in the Lexington Herald Leader the article brings attention to the dangers of the sport in today's paper. I caution you if you go look, but it was done professionally and the intent is to enlighten the general public. www.kentucky.com

I am all for sending letters to the USEF and USEA seeking change. Anyone got any contact information and specific names to address the e-mails and letters to.

Thanks

[frugalannie]

OK Reed, you started this. What's the next step going to be? I've offered to assist in any effort of USEA undertakes in even menial (or maybe especially menial) positions in an e-mail to KB a bit ago. I am not politically connected, am one of the bluest and most chicken-hearted of smurfs, but bring a love of horses (especially eventers), an ability to be a quick study, and a brain that's forgotten more than it remembers. Scut work is porbably right up my alley. I fear if we wait for someone like yourself to be elected to the USEA BoG, we may have let too much time elapse. Your suggestion is a good one: governance should be the objective of more individuals. However, the time frame may be too far out in the future to respond to issues that are currently before us.

I'd love to hear from some posters about they themselves bringing skills to whatever effort is undertaken, and maybe identifying others they know who have skills that will be crucial but who may not be posters. Again, I feel very strongly that the "usual suspects" should not be tapped again. 1. They probably already have lots on their plates and 2. They may have conflicts or vested interests.

PS: I'm utterly impressed by what KSBadger can calculate and I don't even know what it is!

[ccoronios]

It may be the unintended consequences of the short format.
- Riders riding MANY more horses than they would ever have before with the long format.
- Riders being less careful because they have so many horses (they seem to make more mistakes at "lower" levels and/or on their "reliable", more familiar mounts).
- More competitions, closer together.
- Courses more technical to separate the "top".
- Wanting to perform for "owners" who are spending very large amounts of money to campaign UL horses.
- More upper level horses than riders.
- Florida, Florida, Florida. That is, no down season. Maybe people need that too.

Many smaller things that alone would not be a problem can cause any system to become unstable.

Just some food for thought.

SCFarm


Yup. And (for lower levels) including a previous post commenting on the training that lower levels are getting.

It's very sad ...

[RiverBendPol]

You guys can surely count me in. I don't have any particular skills-no, I cannot do figures like KSB!!-but I've played this game for a very long time, I am old and wise, my PR skills are quite good, I know lots and lots of people....You can put my name on the list if you'd like. I also completely agree with this:


>>Originally Posted by LLDM
It may be the unintended consequences of the short format.
- Riders riding MANY more horses than they would ever have before with the long format.
- Riders being less careful because they have so many horses (they seem to make more mistakes at "lower" levels and/or on their "reliable", more familiar mounts).
- More competitions, closer together.
- Courses more technical to separate the "top".
- Wanting to perform for "owners" who are spending very large amounts of money to campaign UL horses.
- More upper level horses than riders.
- Florida, Florida, Florida. That is, no down season. Maybe people need that too.

Many smaller things that alone would not be a problem can cause any system to become unstable. <<

[RiverBendPol]

Hey, look at what I just found while trying to find a used saddle through Google. This is from an article by our mentor James C. Wofford, dated MAY 2002 I believe it came from EQUUS.

".....For example, one aspect is that most riders at a three-day event say that their horses settle in to the cross-country phase better after they have had the warm-up provided by Phases A, B and C, rather than at a horse trials, where there is no formal warm-up. In addition, many times the cross-country test in a horse trials is the final phase, so a rider might press his horse for more speed than advisable, knowing that there is no vet check or show-jumping test the next day.

The three-day event as presently constituted produces outstanding riders on superlatively trained horses. If we reduce the event to a combination of merely technical phases, we aspire to mediocrity. The speed test is essential because it tests our ability to produce a horse in peak physical condition and requires us to train a horse that is as sound in mind as in body. The fitness and endurance aspect of our sport is what sets it apart. The level of difficulty of our dressage is not as high as the dressage purist would want it to be. The pace required for cross country is nowhere close to the speed required in a steeplechase. Our show jumping course on the last day would not be big enough to even warm up a grand prix show jumper.

It is in the combination of supreme fitness and the technical requirements of the dressage, cross-country and stadium jumping that the event truly becomes the complete test of horse and rider.....

....So, obviously, we are in a muddle. What should we do to find our way forward? The experience of our sport in this country from 1992 to 1994 should serve as the model for the FEI events committee efforts.

After the inaccurate portrayal of the Olympic three-day event by NBC in 1992, the Humane Society of the United States, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals and other fringe animal rights activists used eventing as a fundraising tool by stirring up controversy. Our sport responded by making the tests safer, more logical, more systematic and more medically defensible than ever.

The success of those efforts can be measured not only in our reduced injury and fatality rates over the past several years but additionally in the disappearance of the animal rights groups from our scene. Most of those people are not interested in the welfare of animals but rather in fundraising; if they cannot create controversy they will move to another sport. It is hard to have controversy with out cause.

Now more than ever, we need the FEI committee to stand up for us around the world. They should be our spokesman and advocate. They should be the guardians of excellence, not the facilitators of mediocrity. We have a sport that has reached a high level of development and consistently produces horses and riders in an incomparable state of training. Rather than doing away with our sport, we should be proud of it, defend it and continue to improve it......"

How very sad.

Now I'm on a roll...http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/amea/feb98nws.htm

[JAM]

In line with some of the recent posts, it is dismaying that we've seen no statement from the USEA or USEF regarding what they intend to do, or are considering doing, in light of the events of this past weekend. I realize it's only been a couple of days, but I see no inclination for either organization to get out in front of this issue. It's particularly dismaying given the immediate response, from USEA at any rate, on the Monday (I think it was) following Red Hills. Perhaps the organizations believe everyone should assume that the cause of the incidents at Rolex will be part of the USEA's effort announced after Red Hills, but even if this is the case, their silence (other than a brief sentence or two of sympathy for the riders on the Sunday) very creates a very bad impression.

[ccoronios]

Although I understand the reasoning and emotion, I believe that a "stand down" would harm our sport. Running an event requires a great deal of time and money to be spent far in advance of the actual event. It would seem likely that a hiatus would create a financial burden upon events, and perhaps engender hard feelings.

Well, that's certainly a far greater concern than the lives/safety of our horses and riders.

[JAM]

Sorry, just saw the O'Connor / Baumgardner letter on the USEA website; it must have been posted a few minutes before or after my post -- I thought it was a good letter with the right tone and with many useful, appropriate suggestions.

In line with some of the recent posts, it is dismaying that we've seen no statement from the USEA or USEF regarding what they intend to do, or are considering doing, in light of the events of this past weekend. I realize it's only been a couple of days, but I see no inclination for either organization to get out in front of this issue. It's particularly dismaying given the immediate response, from USEA at any rate, on the Monday (I think it was) following Red Hills. Perhaps the organizations believe everyone should assume that the cause of the incidents at Rolex will be part of the USEA's effort announced after Red Hills, but even if this is the case, their silence (other than a brief sentence or two of sympathy for the riders on the Sunday) very creates a very bad impression.

[RAyers]

RiverBendPol, amen to Mr. Wofford!

Frugalannie,

Great question. First, take advantage of DOC's and KB offer for responses. Send in your thoughts and ideas. PRESS for change! Tell them you support the formation of a FORMAL independent Safety Committee with a broad diversity of experience and not just CDs, TDs, riders and officials.

I by NO means want to be on the BoG. I am too busy trying to do my regular life but I will support and aide in any effort, provided I believe it is genuine. Otherwise the USEF and USEA will have to convience me to help. I am notr saying we all need to be running for office but we do have a say in who runs this sport via letting our voices be heard through the various committees. It can be a simple as talking to oganizers, TDs, CDs.

It doesn't matter your skills, all are needed. Yes, I use my engineering, materials science, safety experiences. I am no way good at legal issues, finance (heck I ride, that proves it), business and so forth. I can't do it alone, and I sure as hell don't want to.

Reed

OK Reed, you started this. What's the next step going to be? I've offered to assist in any effort of USEA undertakes in even menial (or maybe especially menial) positions in an e-mail to KB a bit ago. I am not politically connected, am one of the bluest and most chicken-hearted of smurfs, but bring a love of horses (especially eventers), an ability to be a quick study, and a brain that's forgotten more than it remembers. Scut work is porbably right up my alley. I fear if we wait for someone like yourself to be elected to the USEA BoG, we may have let too much time elapse. Your suggestion is a good one: governance should be the objective of more individuals. However, the time frame may be too far out in the future to respond to issues that are currently before us.

I'd love to hear from some posters about they themselves bringing skills to whatever effort is undertaken, and maybe identifying others they know who have skills that will be crucial but who may not be posters. Again, I feel very strongly that the "usual suspects" should not be tapped again. 1. They probably already have lots on their plates and 2. They may have conflicts or vested interests.

PS: I'm utterly impressed by what KSBadger can calculate and I don't even know what it is!

[RunForIt]

Thank you , Reed. Simply, thank you for your love of eventing, your love of horses, and your thoughtful, wise stance on the side of "stop and think, before we do ourselves in" may well pay off.

My horses appreciate it most.

[frugalannie]

Reed, I assembled a compendium of my thoughts from this thread and have sent them on to the two e-mail addresses in KB and DOC's letter.

Let's hope something comes of all the people like you and so many others who have posted on here, whether in agreement or not, thinking about making our sport safer.

It's only beginning, I think, but it may really make a difference.

[ksbadger]

Sure I can do orbit trajectories but ksbadger can do the gamma function about a lifting body! :D

You hit the nail in the head. We need data to understand the problems before we try to answer the questions!

Reed

No I can't - my specialty's Avionics not Flight Sciences. There might be another, more abstract, way of looking at falls - more like analysis by elimination. If the main culprit is rotation, what does not cause this? Lower speeds, lower fences, more solid (less open) fences where the horse's front legs can't get hung up etc... There's some awsome ladies over on the Dressage side who did a great job of analysis for their new Performance Criteria - it could be as much an Operational Research problem as one of Mechanics.

BTW a lot of people seem to think this is a new phenomena - the first time I saw one was on a very fuzzy B&W TV in the UK when a rider came to grief at the water at Badminton more years ago than I care to remember but the rider & horse both survived.

[His Greyness]

I have been following nearly all the threads about these accidents and safety in eventing for quite some time and have seen some very good thoughts and suggestions. However, I haven't seen any analysis of the effectiveness of different ways to initiate change.

A few years back the International Olympic movement was mired in a corruption scandal. The members of the International Olympic Committe were quite happy with the situation since they were the ones receiving all kinds of goodies for voting for a particular city to host the Olympic games. They only took action when the big international sponsors of the Games threatened to pull their funding and thus disrupt the lifestyle to which the IOC had become accustomed.

So:

Follow the Money

and identiy where its flow can be disrupted (or redirected). This means that Rolex may be more responsive than the USEF and its Eventing Committee want to be. In the last event Rolex sponsored a horse entering the dressage arena at the start of the competition had a 1 in 40 (2.5%) chance of winning and a 1 in 20 (5.0%) chance of dying when the competition was over. :mad:

[frugalannie]

Well, that's a very stark, but unfortunately true statistic for that one event.

I would hesitate to disrupt the sponsorship connection for any event because they are so hard to establish and nurture. They might not be re-established, and then there would be no money for the organizer to effect improvements, or perhaps even to continue.

But an interesting idea.

[indigoecho]

I was one of many people who was standing next to the flower basket jump and witnessed Laine's fall. To say it was one of the most horrible things I have ever witnessed was an understatement. This might be clouding my judgement according to many, but I simply think it gives me a different perspective. This was the first Rolex I have ever attended, I live on the west coast and don't get back east much. I was looking forward to Rolex very much, with a little apprehension after reading about the latest rash of deaths and accidents at Red Hills. After my experience at Rolex, I came away incredibly disturbed for main reasons amoung a few others.

First of all, I was troubled by the nonchalant attitude we encountered from the event towards the two equine deaths, and the serious injury to Laine. I was slightly offended that the announcer seemed incredibly keen to downplay the severity of the fall ( I do realize that he was probably trying to keep people from mobbing the scene, but it seemed incredibly tasteless to listen to someone plugging WEG 2010 while both Laine and Frodo struggled in front of us for their lives). After cross country, we were walking back to our car and noticed that they had brought the basket jump up from the cross country course and placed it in the show jumping ring, along with some of the other cross country elements, for a decoration. I was completely horrified that they would put that jump in the ring as decoration after it had been part of such a horrifying image for so many people. There must have been some other people who felt the same way, because it was shortly removed and replaced by a stone wall. The following day, we watched a good part, but not all, and I did not hear one word about Laine, or the two horses. I do not know another sport where this would happen. To me it was as if they were trying to carry on with business as usual, God forbid they actually do anything to make people actually think about what had happened the day before. I was privy to many conversations, and the while there were many people who were as equally disturbed as I was, there were just as many people who were happy to chalk the accidents up to "par for the course in a **** event". The attitude that it is a dangerous sport and things happen is completely offensive to me, and if any other sport had the number of deaths and injuries that eventing has had in the last year the sport would be in serious trouble. Eventing is only going to be able to lay low and hang on to their attitude of risky at all costs for so long before they get enough attention for the animal rights groups to come after them. After this last weekend, I would say that was a bad thing, which brings me to my second observation.

After watching most of the cross country rounds, I came to the amateur conclusion (take it for what it is worth) that there is very little room for error in modern eventing courses. Frodo Baggins paid dearly for taking off for a fence wrong, as did The Quiet Man. I cannot believe that horses and riders should be expected to have a faultless round 100% of the time or expect to deal with the consequences we saw at Rolex this year. That is an incredibly unrealistic expectation, yet people are willing to assume it when they say "It's a risky sport" and leave it at that. While I applaud the letters from DOC and KB, and I think that it is a good start, I don't think that suspensions are going to be enough. What rider is thinking "Oooh, I better not have a rotational fall, because if I do, I'm going to get a 6 month suspension, because the possibility of being crushed and my horse being killed isn't quite enough motivation." I think the fences need to be changed, the time requirements need to be changed, and the qualification process needs to be changed. When a horse has a better chance of dying than winning in an event, something is wrong and needs to be changed.

So long story short, I would be happy to support you in any way I can.

[Rallycairn]

[QUOTE=indigoecho;3182039]I was one of many people who was standing next to the flower basket jump and witnessed Laine's fall. To say it was one of the most horrible things I have ever witnessed was an understatement. ... QUOTE]

Very well said.

[RunForIt]

I was one of many people who was standing next to the flower basket jump and witnessed Laine's fall. To say it was one of the most horrible things I have ever witnessed was an understatement. This might be clouding my judgement according to many, but I simply think it gives me a different perspective. This was the first Rolex I have ever attended, I live on the west coast and don't get back east much. I was looking forward to Rolex very much, with a little apprehension after reading about the latest rash of deaths and accidents at Red Hills. After my experience at Rolex, I came away incredibly disturbed for main reasons amoung a few others.

First of all, I was troubled by the nonchalant attitude we encountered from the event towards the two equine deaths, and the serious injury to Laine. I was slightly offended that the announcer seemed incredibly keen to downplay the severity of the fall ( I do realize that he was probably trying to keep people from mobbing the scene, but it seemed incredibly tasteless to listen to someone plugging WEG 2010 while both Laine and Frodo struggled in front of us for their lives). After cross country, we were walking back to our car and noticed that they had brought the basket jump up from the cross country course and placed it in the show jumping ring, along with some of the other cross country elements, for a decoration. I was completely horrified that they would put that jump in the ring as decoration after it had been part of such a horrifying image for so many people. There must have been some other people who felt the same way, because it was shortly removed and replaced by a stone wall. The following day, we watched a good part, but not all, and I did not hear one word about Laine, or the two horses. I do not know another sport where this would happen. To me it was as if they were trying to carry on with business as usual, God forbid they actually do anything to make people actually think about what had happened the day before. I was privy to many conversations, and the while there were many people who were as equally disturbed as I was, there were just as many people who were happy to chalk the accidents up to "par for the course in a **** event". The attitude that it is a dangerous sport and things happen is completely offensive to me, and if any other sport had the number of deaths and injuries that eventing has had in the last year the sport would be in serious trouble. Eventing is only going to be able to lay low and hang on to their attitude of risky at all costs for so long before they get enough attention for the animal rights groups to come after them. After this last weekend, I would say that was a bad thing, which brings me to my second observation.

After watching most of the cross country rounds, I came to the amateur conclusion (take it for what it is worth) that there is very little room for error in modern eventing courses. Frodo Baggins paid dearly for taking off for a fence wrong, as did The Quiet Man. I cannot believe that horses and riders should be expected to have a faultless round 100% of the time or expect to deal with the consequences we saw at Rolex this year. That is an incredibly unrealistic expectation, yet people are willing to assume it when they say "It's a risky sport" and leave it at that. While I applaud the letters from DOC and KB, and I think that it is a good start, I don't think that suspensions are going to be enough. What rider is thinking "Oooh, I better not have a rotational fall, because if I do, I'm going to get a 6 month suspension, because the possibility of being crushed and my horse being killed isn't quite enough motivation." I think the fences need to be changed, the time requirements need to be changed, and the qualification process needs to be changed. When a horse has a better chance of dying than winning in an event, something is wrong and needs to be changed.

So long story short, I would be happy to support you in any way I can.


We all need to read this - again and again and again.

so do Kevin and David

[poopoo]

Indigoehco,
You hit the nail on the head. The problem is staring us in the face - the courses need to change, now. You can talk about other reasons, today's riders don't foxhunt and pay their dues, etc. etc. blah, blah, blah - but you are telling me that Darren Chiachia who's been to the Olympics and Ralph Hill who can chew gum and blow bubbles while jumping around Fair Hill's CCI*** haven't paid their dues and don't know what they're doing????? Sure. They need to revamp the courses. How many horses have to die first? How many head injuries have to happen first? Doesn't it make sense just to change the courses?????
I think eventers have some wires touching in their heads that shouldn't be....(and I am one). It's just a risky sport..... please! You can decide to take that risk, but the horses can't!!!!!