Q about an Oldenburg mare/anyone seen this brand?

[Merle]

Supposedly this girl has this chestnut Oldenburg mare who is registered but she has copies of the papers. Is there any way, if I bought her, that I could get full "real" papers? I'm interested in her as an event horse but if I really liked her then down the road I might want a foal from her as a future event horse for me. I'd be interested in a registered foal, if I could. Would they accept copies of her papers at the foal inspection? :D

Also, she has in interesting brand on her. I wonder what that is about? Is she truly what she says she is?

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u306/Born2Event/022.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u306/Born2Event/secret.jpg

[Reiter]

That doesn't look like a Warmblood brand to me! Looks more like a farm brand or something!
If you really want her for future breeding I would call the Registry and find out what you could do about getting her papers (if indeed she has Oldenburg papers). It should say on the paperwork whether she was branded or not, but that is definitely not an Oldenburg brand on her!!!!!!

[carosello]

I agree, that is not an Oldenburg brand...I would suspect something more like QH or stock horse.

[Nootka]

i also agree. It looks like a farm brand. Are the hairs white? I think it looks like a freeze brand not a hot brand.

It doesnt even look like any of the German "area" brands. Can you see the "O" for oldenburg at all? Sometimes the WB brands are hard to see.

Also depending on her age she may be microchipped not branded if she is GOV. GOV in the USA doesnt brand (I think that is correct, right?)

[Merle]

I agree! I think it's NOT a warmblood brand but why on earth would someone brand an Oldenburg mare with a "western" ranch brand? That wouldn't make any sense to me!

She's supposedly from Colorado, if that helps anyone, and I'm 99% sure her hairs are white (I haven't seen her in person).

[Ashemont]

Definitely not a German brand. This mare looks very stockhorse to me (as does the brand) - like the kind of ranch horses we used to have. It's quite possible there's some Oldenburg breeding in her but I'd be very suspicious of any papers. Unless of course she is microchipped and can be matched to the papers.

[jumpergirl853]

We have a horse at our barn with the same brand.
He is supposedly a full TB and was at one point owned by CSU. So, I think that the brand may have something to do with CSU.

[talloaks]

We have a horse at our barn with the same brand.
He is supposedly a full TB and was at one point owned by CSU. So, I think that the brand may have something to do with CSU.

I wonder if that brand is from the herd of ET mares they have at CSU, you think? Perhaps the mare with the brand, carried an Oldenburg foal.

[Merle]

Well, I e-mailed CSU so we'll see if they respond and if they do, what they say. That is VERY interesting that the TB at your barn came from CSU and has the same brand.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u306/Born2Event/012.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u306/Born2Event/021.jpg

[Beasmom]

Yes, that's a CSU brand. Animal Reproduction Lab. I just looked it up in my Colorado Brand Book.

[Merle]

Thanks Beasmom!!

So guys, what does that mean? Do you think she could still be Oldenburg or is most likely a QH? Looks like they do an awful lot with QHs there! But how would this girl end up with a copy of her papers? She said CSU gave this copy to her. :confused:

It's very interesting that they would brand their mares, isn't it?

[Simkie]

I believe that's the CSU school horse brand, not the repro brand. The repro brand I've seen on their herd of mares is "CSU" on the hip and numbers on the hamstring (viewable when palpating!)

[Beasmom]

CSU is the Animal Sciences brand. I'm sure it's possible the horses (well, the mares, anyway) would cross over from one to another.

I remember a gelding that a young man evented here years ago. The gelding had the CSU brand on his hip -- pretty sure he had nothing to do with the repro department -- unless he was bred & born at CSU!

Born2Event, I'll bet the folks at CSU can provide more information on your mare. Surely they keep good records...

[jumpergirl853]

The horse at our barn is also a gelding. So he was probably not part of the breeding program either.

[DownYonder]

She may have been registered as an Oldenburg as a foal, but was donated to CSU. Does she have another brand? I feel like I can almost see another brand in the one photo. It may be a different type of scar, though - hard to see in that photo.

As to whether you can get her original papers - it would probably depend on whether you could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is who the photocopy of the papers says she is. She would have to perfectly match the description and drawings of markings and whorls, and they would probably also want proof of parentage via DNA testing. That could be very problematic if her sire and dam do not already have a DNA report on file with UC Davis.

Who is listed as her sire on the copy of the papers?

[Erin Pittman]

Yep. Lazy B Quarter Circle Quarter Circle is the brand for the riding herd at CSU. They get in a LOT of nice horses for their riding program. A few years ago (maybe 3?), the completely changed their riding focus away from general group lessons to a more show-oriented group of horses. They sold a lot of horses at that time. If the brand is on the left shoulder, it means the horse is a result of a breeding/research study. I only know this because we had to brand all my research yearlings on the shoulder prior to selling them; we couldn't do it on the left hip because that was reserved for the riding horses, so we made up a new rule for research animals who weren't in the repro herd. The repro herd of mares (mostly embryo transfer recipients and research horses) has CSU on the left shoulder and number down their bum. I think the polo ponies have something different - not sure what. I'd call Tiare Wells at CSU - she's in charge of the riding program and could probably tell you more about your mare (who could VERY well be an Oldenburg). Her number is 970-491-8504. The other person who might be able to answer questions about the mare is the riding barn manager, Anne Westhoff. Her number is 970-291-2661.

[ise@ssl]

I would also have this mare examined to make sure she didn't have an ovectomy. Many of the mares that CSU uses for Embryo Transfer have had their ovaries removed. So if you are planning to use her for breeding in the future - it would be important to know if she's breedable.

[Erin Pittman]

I would also have this mare examined to make sure she didn't have an ovectomy. Many of the mares that CSU uses for Embryo Transfer have had their ovaries removed. So if you are planning to use her for breeding in the future - it would be important to know if she's
breedable.

Except that her brand isn't the brand of the Repro Herd, it's the riding program herd. They only remove the ovaries of a very few mares (there were about 4 while I was there in 1997-2001) and I doubt they'd do that for a riding mare.

[ise@ssl]

Well Erin - as a breeder - we would want a mare with questionable breeding palpated and checked out by a good repro vet before purchase. In this case - there seem to be more than a few open items - the papers are a copy...so where are the original papers? Does the person selling this horse have full legal ownership? If so - why don't they have the original papers?

If the mare was originally donated to CSU (if she was) - why?

[Erin Pittman]

I don't disagree that they should do a full repro exam on the mare (as anyone planning to breed should), but I was responding to the possibility of the mare being ovariectomized. That is unlikely as she was donated to the riding program. Getting her history would also be good which is why I posted the phone numbers for the people who would know more about her history. However, they may not know all about her just due to the sheer size of their riding program. Maybe the mare was donated because the people wanted to downsize? Maybe they wanted a tax deduction? But, I totally agree about getting a repro exam and finding out whatever they can prior to trying to breed her.

[Merle]

Hi guys. I went and saw the mare today (and rode her). She only has the CSU brand, no others. She forgot the papers so I didn't get to see them and she couldn't remember anyone in her pedigree. Also, she WAS donated to CSU and the woman held onto the originals and only gave them a copy. This girl got her directly from CSU.

I would have a full repro exam done on her since I would be interested in breeding her (ahem, I'm going into vet school at Cornell this fall! :D).

[Merle]

She sent me a copy of her papers! Anyone tell me anything about her breeding?

She's by Wendesohn (Old) and out of Iron Baby which has in handwriting next to it XX (so must be a TB), says Main Studbook (H). And she was born 5/30/1996 so she's older than I thought. All of the white markings match up with the copy and she has some complicated markings (it's not like she's a plain chestnut) so I would think that the copies belong to her.

[Ashemont]

I'd suggest clearing up the papers before you buy this mare. I doubt the association will do anything with a copy; they will want the originals.

If I donated a mare to a university for their use I'd be most upset if they turned around and sold the mare. Sometimes there is an agreement that the animal can be resold but sometimes the use is restricted to the university. You could end up with quite a mess. Particularly if you were to buy and breed her first.

[Merle]

Yes, I will contact the breeder (found the farm-- Plum Creek Hollow Farm in CO), CSU, and the association to see what the deal is. I don't want to end up with a mess and most definitely want everything a-okay before I do anything. :)

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . If I donated a mare to a university for their use I'd be most upset if they turned around and sold the mare. Sometimes there is an agreement that the animal can be resold but sometimes the use is restricted to the university. You could end up with quite a mess. Particularly if you were to buy and breed her first.

While you can certainly feel that way (& I would, too), once you give something away (or sell it) you have no control over it. I have read quite a few discussions on this board & the various "right of first refusal" clauses, etc., apparently cannot be enforced. I am not a lawyer, but that is my understanding. And, I have read again & again cases where people made arrangements with a university to get a horse back & the university did not keep their end of the bargain.

You are right, though, trying to get original papers may really open a can of worms if the woman expected to get the horse back.

[jodyb]

If memory serves me, I believe Wendesohn was a son of Wendepunkt. Both stallions stood at Plum Creek Hollow in the 90's. I think Wendesohn was a big attractive chestnut that was shown in jumper classes.

[Beasmom]

I believe the folks at Plum Creek will do whatever they can to help, IF they can. (Not knowing how long ago the mare was donated, whether or not the same management personnel were in place, that sort of thing...) I dealt with them recently and found them delightful and extremely gracious.

[Simkie]

She sent me a copy of her papers! Anyone tell me anything about her breeding?

She's by Wendesohn (Old) and out of Iron Baby which has in handwriting next to it XX (so must be a TB), says Main Studbook (H). And she was born 5/30/1996 so she's older than I thought. All of the white markings match up with the copy and she has some complicated markings (it's not like she's a plain chestnut) so I would think that the copies belong to her.

....I may KNOW this mare. Holy cow.

What's her name? PM if you'd like. If it's the same horse I'm thinking of, I'm shocked she wound up in the CSU school horse program.

[ise@ssl]

If the mare has Oldenburg NA papers she had to be branded. Some people find out after the fact that some Universities and Colleges do re-sell the horses that are donated to them so it's always good to check this before donating.

As far as right of first refusal clauses not being enforceable - I've never heard that being that.

If I remember correctly Nancy Gooding owned Plum Creek Farm.

Did the person who has the horse now BUY the horse from CSU?

[Merle]

Yes, the person BOUGHT her from CSU.

Simkie, you have a PM.

[Beasmom]

Nancy still owns Plum Creek, but you'd most likely be talking to Deanna Erpelding, the manager.

Hope I spelled her name right!

Let us know what you learn. Enquiring minds want to know...

[Merle]

Hi guys. Lots of new information! I contacted Tiare Wells at CSU who knew of the horse very well. She even has a framed photo of her on her wall! She was used as a school horse and they mainly did the 3' hunters with her but also a little dressage.

I got ahold of Plum Creek Farm who is going to pull up her file and get back to me, and I also contacted the Oldenburg registry who said that they could reissue her papers. She was registered with Oldenburg of America, which they say is no longer in existence.

This is the website of the Oldenburg registry I contacted:
www.oldenburghorse.com

The woman will not budge on the horse's price and I think it's a bit too much for what she is, especially with this market and being in Maine. Anyone know what the price is this mare would fetch with her pedigree and being a big pill under saddle? :D Not bad, just needs a big tuneup.

[JumperForJoy]

I was looking through Denver craigslist and found this mare..

http://denver.craigslist.org/grd/660192069.html

I saw you were wondering how much she is actually worth. I don't know if this mares price is priced well, but its a start? A horse is only worth what someone will pay for it.

Hope all works out!