What do you think?

[sylvan farm]

Some of us were talking the other day about stallions and prospects that have the whole package (movement, jump, conformation, 'it') but come from older bloodlines. They don't have any of the hot names in their pedigrees. Is there a market for these horses as breeding stallions? Would you breed to a licensed stallion that did not have fashionable bloodlines? Do you think there's a difference of opinion on this subject if you breed for dressage vs people who breed for jumpers?

We came to a conclusion, but are curious what others think.

[Rhyadawn]

"fashionable" and "hot names" will come and go (see threads on colored wbs). Solid temperment and great conformation are the focus. However, (as I have recently learned) just because a stallion (or mare) has a great temperment or good conformation doesn't mean they will pass it on. Not all great horses make great breeding stock. This is where the proven stallions and mares have something going for them. Proven stock out of proven stock (etc) is more reliable to breed to than your neighbors awsome stallion with no foals on the ground and "unknown" parentage.

In short, its a gamble. If I knew temperment and conformation of the stallions sire and dam, its a gamble I would take.

[MagicRoseFarm]

I personally think that the "hot" names change so fast and so often, that it is foolish NOT to consider older bloodlines,


I am not familiar with jumper lines, but in Dressage, here are a few I am familiar with that are a major part of the foundation of our own breeding program.

For Example:
Grundstein Sadly almost lost to the future of WB breeding, preserved by several "non trendy" sons.The main one being the stallion Gold Luck. I do not need to say much here, the statistics have spoken for Grundstein. He was the leading sire in the FN rankings among stallions in the top 10% of their age group in both jumping and dressage for many years. In 1995 Grundstein's dressage index was 178 and his jumping index was 142. NOT to be confused with his full sibling Grundstein II who was not nearly as prolific.


Bolero, for years, many of the top international dressage competitors contained Bolero blood.
Bolero Bloodlines (http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/bolerobloodlines_122105/) Very noble, intelligent horses from this line. Was a great nick refining the Grande lines.

Absatz a foundation sire for "modern" Hanoverians, his influence is huge.
We are linebreeding his blood in the 3rd,4th generation and 5th generation in our own program.

Some Jumping sires who come to mind are Furioso, Gotthard, Cor De La Bryere, Voltaire

There are others which come to mind as well, but some only APPEARRING consistant because, out of the sheer numbers produced, a reasonable percentage have been very successful.

I think there are so many different reasons breeder's breed, which cause differences of opinion. "Hot" names appeal to the general public more quickly, if only because they are more easily recognizeable. This in itself makes the results more marketable, IF the TIMING is right. Some trends have passed before the offspring can be appropriately marketted.

Better breeder's will use some "trendy stallions " for individual traits to help achieve goals within their breeding programs, IE certain characteristics in horses they wish to include in future generations for themselves. I think more of these breeders rely on older more proven and predictable bloodlines as their "jumping off point" but they are not the larger public.

The "flavor of the week" can also become the "flash in the pan" ..Breeders who have found these NOT to be successful from past experience, will more readily rely on older, currently less popular bloodlines that have proven to be successful and consistant producing.

[not again]

Older bloodlines with a strong performance record and proven soundness will always win out in our breeding program. ;) Oh, and great fertility too!:)
Fashionable stallions who have gone down the fast track on licensing and young horse competition, often with all the collateral steroid support, can have long term fertility and soundness issues.:no:
And a good breeding stallion in our mind is one who is upgrading both himself and his mares consistently. Show us offspring before we decide to breed to the father.:yes:
And full sibling stallions can also be disappointing. (We always point to Jimmy Carter and Billy Carter to illustrate that one! :lol:)

[DownYonder]

Yes, I absolutely would consider a stallion without the current trendy bloodlines, as long as he was the right match for the mare (for instance, a TB or other refined mare with a good bit of "blood" close up in her pedigree ). One thing to watch out for with stallions from older bloodlines is that they are often somewhat heavy and tankish, and throw offspring that are the same. Most of the WB registries are making a concerted effort to move away from that type of horse toward a more modern, longer lined horse. It might be difficult to get an older type stallion with older bloodlines actually approved by a major registry.

OTOH, here is something else to consider. For a while, Furioso II bloodlines were falling out of favor in Germany. Dressage breeders were breeding to Donnerhall and Rubinstein stallions, and Furioso-line stallions were fading away without leaving any sons to carry on the legacy. Then a little known son of Furioso II (Fidelio) sired FLORESTAN - who then sired Fürst Heinrich, Florencio, and Fidermark. We are now seeing a resurgence of the old Furioso blood - proving that yes, there is value in those old bloodlines.

[not again]

DY, good post.
Have any of the stallions you mentioned consistently produced Grand prix horses in dressage or are they producing young horse winners (those tests compare to first and third levels here in the US)?
That seems to be the big disconnect in breeding and bloodlines these days.

[DownYonder]

Fuerst Heinrich and Florencio are both too young to have produced GP sons. I think FH's oldest foals are just 6 y/o this year, and Florencio's are 5 y/o's. Also, FH unfortunately died at a very young age and only had - what, 4 foal crops?

I believe that Fidermark's first foals are 12 this year, so I would think there are some doing GP stuff. Maybe our German friends can chime in here? (And sadly, Fidermark also died way too young.)

[not again]

DY, Is this the Furioso you are referring to? By blood he doesn't appear old fashioned.
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=527

But back to the original question:
The jumper breeders, from what I have seen, seem to have a better handle on bloodlines that make it to the big ring and produce international success stories through the generations. (But maybe jumpers make it up through the levels faster so predictability becomes easier.)
Dressage breeders seem more influenced by low level fashionable names without the cross check to the sire lines that are winning internationally at the top levels, in my experience.;)

[camohn]

On studies done there is also a higher degree of heritability for jumping than dressage talent, which makes breeding top jumpers a bit easier.
FWIW my For The Future (Furioso II/Inscahallah) mare is a tank and I doubt she got the tank part from the Inschallah side!

[clint]

Yes, I absolutely will consider older bloodlines for breeding. And another consideration is that as the newer, trendier bloodlines become entrenched in the mare base, mare owners will look for outcrosses back to the older bloodlines. So, taking into consideration that the new, hot, flavor is always changing, the need for proven lines, and the need for diversity for the mare base, I hope that stallion owners will consider approving older line boys.

[Oakstable]

Jumping talent is more predictable. Dressage talent is more subject to fads.

Once I realized that, I stopped breeding for straight dressage horses.

I try to breed jumpers with movement appealing to a dressage rider.

I only have one filly who is dressage-bred but she likely could produce hunters with the right stallion, but unlikely a jumper.

I think the older bloodlines show up in the dam side of a pedigree. Breeders choose newer stallions for these girls.

In a tight economy, breeders may be less likely to take chances on an unproven stallion and opt for proven bloodlines that have been around a while.

Last year, I bred to two stallions who were age 17.

[DownYonder]

DY, Is this the Furioso you are referring to? By blood he doesn't appear old fashioned.
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=527

You are correct, FII's pedigree contained a lot of "blood." However, were he alive and breeding today, many would think his phenotype to be a bit "old type."

And I think Clint nailed it. For a while, everyone's WB mare bands consisted of heavier, older style mares. Lighter stallions with a good dose of blood were the best choice for these mares, to lighten and modernize them. Now that most WB mare bands are getting lighter, it may no longer be necessary to continually breed with lighter and lighter stallions. You have to pick and choose, based on the mare's own phenotype AND genotype. If you have a heavy, old style mare with older bloodlines, then by all means, a lighter stallion is probably the ticket. OTOH, a very light, modern mare with long lines and a lot of blood in her pedigree probably doesn't need to be lightened much more unless you are breeding for eventers or maybe hunters.

[not again]

In our experience thoroughbred/anglo arab (xx/ox) blood stays between 25% and 75%. You can get an individual with 25% xx/ox who appears very "modern" and another with 75% xx/ox who appears very "old fashioned." But what about performance? Percent of blood is fine for halter classes, but a lot more goes in to producing top level horses in the highest levels of sport.
DY have you bred a horse that has gone on to the top level of any of the international disciplines? What was the percent of thoroughbred/anglo arab blood? Anyone else?

[DownYonder]

In our experience thoroughbred/anglo arab (xx/ox) blood stays between 25% and 75%. You can get an individual with 25% xx/ox who appears very "modern" and another with 75% xx/ox who appears very "old fashioned." But what about performance? Percent of blood is fine for halter classes, but a lot more goes in to producing top level horses in the highest levels of sport.
DY have you bred a horse that has gone on to the top level of any of the international disciplines? What was the percent of thoroughbred/anglo arab blood? Anyone else?

Yes, and I meant to add that one has to think about more than just phenotype and genotype, esp. when adding blood to lighten. For instance, if the mare already lacks power behind, that has to be taken into consideration when choosing a stallion for her. Many of the very trendy, modern stallions are lacking a bit in carrying power, so a savvy breeder will think long and hard about using one of these on a mare who also lacks the ability to sit and carry.

And, no - I have not bred a horse that has gone to the top. I only bred a few foals, then quit - too many horses in the world as it is. I am currently riding one of my homebreds - a 7 y/o Feiner Stern daughter. She will probably never be an FEI horse because I don't have the time to commit to it, but I'm having fun learning to ride again after a LONG hiatus. I have really toyed with the idea of breeding her - I would LOVE to have a Diamond Hit foal out of her - but then I wouldn't have anything to ride, so she will remain a riding horse. ;)

[not again]

To reply to Sylvan Farm:
Producing a top dressage has been very successful for us, and very consistent.
By using stallions AND mares who offer the required characteristics needed to "play the game" at the top level we have many offspring who exceed our expectations. Most important is that the foals have the core strength to do flying changes every stride from birth and sit to turn (light on forehand) and trot in a connected (not extravagant and disassociated) manner. The icing on the cake is when the foals and grown horses have a calm demeanor and are rider-friendly.
And no fashionable names are in the recipe. Plenty of big ones though.;)
And they are all American registered. :yes:

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=sylvan farm;3169785] They don't have any of the hot names in their pedigrees. Is there a market for these horses as breeding stallions?

remember that "hot" very often means who travels the most to the shows that year...;)

best

[STF]

[quote]

remember that "hot" very often means who travels the most to the shows that year...;)

best


Amen Tamara!
Its quanity, not quality when it comes to points and "exposure" with a lot of cases.
Money talks...... and it takes money to get seen! :cool:

[Donella]

I have used Liscenced stallions without "fashionable" lines if it compliments the mare. However, I recognize that resale as a foal probably wont be as high. Thats ok.

On the other hand, "fashionable" seems to be anything new and as far as I am concerned, the stallions that are liscenced every year represent the breeds improvement and should be utilized! I understand if proven is your thing but to imply that anything new will not be a good sire is ludicrous. If that were the case and nobody used the new stallions then the breed would go extinct. I think its an error to assume that people breed to the new stallions for marketability only.

[Fairview Horse Center]

IMO, the breeding of Warmbloods today in the European Registries for dressage is all about marketing and money, not about the best for sport. Changes in a type should be made slowly, so that offspring are predictable. That however, does not bring in the cash to the home business, and make no mistake, that is exactly what the registries are. Radical changes will ensure that no one else has the current "in" type, so everyone has to go to the source.

[not again]

"Fashionable" sires lines somehow always make me think of the Emperor's new clothes.:lol:

If, as we have done for years, we were trying to produce a better retrieving Labrador, we sure wouldn't breed to the one that was fashionable, but rather the one that was successful.:yes:

Why are performance horses any different?:confused:

And why is the myth that the pedigree must be fashionable in order to market successfully being perpetuated without factual support?

And, at the end of the day, riders go down the center line of a grand prix test on a horse, not the papers. The judges critique the horse, not the brand.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Absolutely yes to old bloodlines and less popular but proven stallions. Some of the breeds/registries have the same sires over and over again. And with smaller registries they are definitely looking for outcross stallions to keep the bloodlines fresher and diverse.

I don't look for trendy. Actually, be it right or wrong, I look at bloodlines last. Conformation, performance and movement are the first things. Actually trendy hasn't always had enough time to build up a solid performance career. I want to see them excel at upper levels and hopefully stay sound to do so although this certainly isn't limited soley by conformation...miscellaneous injuries of course can bring a stallion's career to a screeching halt.

One thing about trendy stallions is that I think that the offspring tend to lose value when there are so many out there...supply and demand.

[Donella]

What amazes me again and again in all areas of life is how resistant people generally are to change. I can see how it is not right to breed a particular mare to the "hot" stallion if she is not suited, but in general, the newer stallions are the breeds IMPROVEMENT. Why so much resistance? I can see not liking some of them but for the most part, they are definately an improvement. If I look at brentanos sons, they are an improvment. Same with Rubensteins, Donnerhall ect ect. Only time will tell if they will be great sires but in terms of phenotype/movement/quality they are better horses.

[sylvan farm]

Interesting to read all the different thoughts and opinions. Our little group thought that a very good, licensed, young stallion with old bloodlines would not be much used in the dressage community. As some have said, we also thought that the use of fashionable stallions was perceived as resulting in a more marketable foal. Interesting points that Tasker made about breeders breeding for themselves might well use a stallion with older, proven lines, and Mary Lou made about outcrossing mares from the lighter stallions back to the older lines. But we didn't think there would be a big market.

We thought that if the horse really was a good jumper, the jumper breeders would use him because they are more concerned about jump than the pedigree, and those with knowledge about bloodlines know that many of the old lines are still producing great jumpers. But, again, it's easy to go buy a going jumper, so no great market.

We did think that an unlimited advertising budget could change the picture, and result in lots of breedings. And of course, the picture could change if the horse had a successful upper level career and some nice offspring....

Finally we thought this type of stallion would probably get more mares in Europe than the US.

Thanks for all the input, interesting discussion.

[ahf]

Sylvan, I concur with the thoughts of your group. I will go one further to say that even if a young dressage stallion has "fashionable" bloodlines, he'd still better be born in Europe, not NA. I believe that familarity breeds contempt.

For those of you who prefer proven (and with a maiden mare with no production record, I can well understand this view..though I happily will take a flyer...I just don't expect to sell until it's U/S.)...how is the young stallion going to get "proven" unless he gets progeny on the ground? Or is proven a competition record? In which case that's going to cost the SO big-time with no hope of breedings to offset expenses for that 4 years or so.

[Tasker]

Just so we are all on the same page - this is from the other BB that I had commented on this thread -

This is just MHO...

I think that there is a market but it is somewhat limited to buyers, breeders and riders who desire a riding horse that they themselves will RIDE.

Yes, I would breed to such a stallion. In fact I do it every year and will continue to do so. I think that genotype & phenotype play a greater roll along with the damlines of both sire & dam. If you know what your mares produce & what the stallion is prepotent for passing along, the odds become stacked in your favor.

FWIW - I aim to breed Grand Prix dressage horses for ME (how selfish does that sound??? ) and I know not everyone will like to ride what I like to ride. So with that in mind, our mare base is made up of exceptional jumping talent with enough fire for the 2's, 1's and piaffe/passage. All of that is with the hope that if the resulting foal lacks the gaits/talent/mind for GP it will be able to manage a different career with little to no difficulty or train up to be a PSG horse at the bare minimum.

The predictability of jumping vs. dressage talent make me laugh with one distinct memory/example from the 80's & one that is the current babysitter for the weanlings. In the late 80's mom bred a 3/4 sister to Idle Dice to our Westphalian stallion (who was a superb showjumper) and got a good moving grey colt who had ALL the wrong instincts for jumping. He was bordering on dangerous above 2'9" :eek: The Voltaire/Roemer gelding that I own is another that comes to mind with the pedigree for jumping and a severe lack of talent/skill in that area. We won't have the good or new material out if he is jumping as he break so many rails.

Now fast forward to where I am sitting right now.

I was thrilled to see that Celle had purchased Belafonte (and now I am bummed because I read that he had been sold) and was offering him via frozen semen. I never take a flyer on freshman stallions but he definitely caught my eye and was on a very short list for the future.
http://landgestuetcelle.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=1&idcat=16&idart=973

Then again, I have an opportunity to purchase some proven frozen from a long list of BN stallions who are deceased. The trick is to find the information regarding their get (conformation, trainability, etc) and what type of mare they have proven to NEED. That is my big hang up at the moment - a huge lack of information on these old fellas beyond 'they were/are great foundation sires'. :sigh:

And for those who are saying that breeding to older stallions is a form of regression for breeding goals, I humbly disagree from a rider's position. Fashionable breeding does not a Grand Prix horse make. They are freaks of nature with their ability, their mind and their trainability. A sound horse that produced/produces sound competition horses at a high level NEVER goes out of fashion.

As far as breeding to older or newer lines...Mary Lou brought up an excellent point - it depends on the mare and what she needs from the stallion.

[Home Again Farm]

This is a complex question and requires some thought. But my first thought is that if said stallion has all you say (the whole package (movement, jump, conformation, 'it'), along with a great motherline, I'd be very interested. I have so many of the same lines in my mares that I do look for other bloodlines.

Standing a stallion here in the states has to be such a challenge. Mare owners have so very many choices. I know that every year I have long lists for each of my girls and it is a difficult thing to come up with final choices. I am sure that most mare owners feel the same way.

But, back to the question, older lines that are not presently in the limelight, but that are in an extremely superior individual who has all that you list above, would be extremely interesting.

Edited to add that somebody else made the worthwhile points that were attributed to me. :winkgrin:

[Home Again Farm]

And for those who are saying that breeding to older stallions is a form of regression for breeding goals, I humbly disagree from a rider's position. Fashionable breeding does not a Grand Prix horse make. They are freaks of nature with their ability, their mind and their trainability. A sound horse that produced/produces sound competition horses at a high level NEVER goes out of fashion.

Can someone please tell me what constitutes "fashionable" breeding? I truly am curious. My gut feeling is that many will say that it means young stallions who come from R, D, W and perhaps a few other letters. I also perceive a definite sense that these are bad choices - always bad choices - that are made only for the unworthy aim of making a fast profit on a foal sale.

Is it possible that some of us use some of the new boys because we really think the cross might work well? I have never decided on a stallion just because they were "hot" or "fashionable" without also feeling very strongly that they would cross well with the mare I was using after doing my darndest to learn as much about them as I could.

[not again]

Tasker--that stallion can't be on your short list---only two white socks!!:lol: (But he is chestnut!);)

[pony grandma]

Amen Tamara! Its quanity, not quality when it comes to points and "exposure" with a lot of cases.
Money talks...... and it takes money to get seen! :cool:

What we used to call a trailer race.

[Donella]

Can someone please tell me what constitutes "fashionable" breeding? I truly am curious. My gut feeling is that many will say that it means young stallions who come from R, D, W and perhaps a few other letters. I also perceive a definite sense that these are bad choices - always bad choices - that are made only for the unworthy aim of making a fast profit on a foal sale.

Is it possible that some of us use some of the new boys because we really think the cross might work well? I have never decided on a stallion just because they were "hot" or "fashionable" without also feeling very strongly that they would cross well with the mare I was using after doing my darndest to learn as much about them as I could.

Mary Lou,
Good point..this is exactly what I was trying to say. I would like to know this as well!

[Tasker]

Can someone please tell me what constitutes "fashionable" breeding? I truly am curious. My gut feeling is that many will say that it means young stallions who come from R, D, W and perhaps a few other letters. I also perceive a definite sense that these are bad choices - always bad choices - that are made only for the unworthy aim of making a fast profit on a foal sale.

ML - I wasn't directing the 'fashionable' comment directly AT you...sorry if I crossed the line!

FWIW - Fashionable in my mind is a stallion who is offered in his freshman season (first year at stud) with no competition record whatsoever to overseas breeders through a media blitz marketing ploy. While his sire/damsire may have had a performance career (to what level & how long did he compete is a whole 'nother topic), this guy has done very little (if anything) undersaddle with a non-uber rider. The definition of an Uber-rider is illustrated best by riders like Ulf Moller, Miriam Henschke, Bianca Kasselman, Ingrid Klimke, Inga Hansen or Johnny Hilberath...who are geniuses on horseback and can get the very, very best out of their horses. Oh and the stud fee price may be a few hundreds dollars less than a domestic (could be imported or not) stallion who is readily available to be viewed in the flesh and ridden by an average human being of mixed talents on an equine.

My best example of 'fashionable' at the moment is Quaterback. Why? Because I know as a rider that I do NOT ride hot horses easily and without struggle. I can not think of ONE person that I come into daily contact with that could ride that horse's movement & gaits. Therefore, looking at the local 'market' breeding to him would be for fashion...knowingly breeding to a stallion will result in a foal that I (more than likely) can NOT ride. Since I can't ride it, what shall I do with this foal? Hmmmmm, that leaves me with breeding, selling and/or euthanizing as my long term options. Sorry to be glum but as a breeder, if it doesn't sell as a foal, someone (me more than likely) is going to be riding this horse and if I can't ride it, what happens to the horse 10, 15 or 20 years down the road?

A few generations of 'fashionable' breeding and one question remains in my mind...who is going to ride these horses? Not the average run-of-the-mill adult amateur! :no: Add in the known deficits that some 'hot' stallions bring to the table and it makes me wonder if they are being used for anything other than a sales angle?

The hype and fuss over these new stallions is unfair IMHO as there is no way to satisfy all the expectations that are placed upon them to 'fix' vast inadequacies in the mares that are being bred to them. Some mare owners are picking based on romanticism and infatuation rather than coldly evaluating what each mare & stallion is bringing to the table. Certain bloodlines are proven (over time) to cross well together with rideable offspring to illustrate their quality while others result in disasters on the hoof. What incentive is there to be a long distance science experiment with no recourse to the stallion owner OR assistance in selling the offspring?

not again - :lol: You know me too well! :) I am going to eradicate those bay & black horses in our program yet! Just give me some time!!! :D :winkgrin: My weakness is for redheads with chrome...I confess!

Evening chores are calling and I should back away from the keyboard...this is a topic that gets to me at the end of a long day...sorry for the rant.

[Home Again Farm]

Hey, tasker, no worries ever. I really just wanted to know and was not singling out you at all. Your post was just one of many that mention the use of hot or fashionable or whatever stallions. Some call them flavor of the month. My point is that there seems to be many who assume that anyone who uses one is not breeding intelligently. Hence my question.

[Donella]

My best example of 'fashionable' at the moment is Quaterback. Why? Because I know as a rider that I do NOT ride hot horses easily and without struggle. I can not think of ONE person that I come into daily contact with that could ride that horse's movement & gaits. Therefore, looking at the local 'market' breeding to him would be for fashion...knowingly breeding to a stallion will result in a foal that I (more than likely) can NOT ride.

In all fairness, if everyone were to use that breeding philosophy then there would be very ,very few upperlevel showjumper or dressage horses. Alot of people cannot ride a top show jumper and alot of dressage riders cannot ride a huge moving warmblood. But at the top of sport, that is what the riders want. And I know enough people in my area that could ride a horse like that (of course alot couldnt either). If you are breeding for yourself then clearly he wouldn't be a good choice for you but to say that it's wrong to breed to a stallion like QB because your or some other people could not ride him is a little unfair.

[canticle]

Why breed horses that no one wants to ride? Do such horses really represent an improvement?

[not again]

Donella, Tasker holds her USDF silver and gold medals, and was high score young rider at both the USET Festival of Champions and the Raleigh CDI. She rode at the NAYRC three times. She also won year end awards at Grand Prix and GP Freestyle from both the AHS and USEF. She has also been internationally ranked by the FEI at Grand Prix. Right now she has three homebreds showing Intermediare 1 and schooling Grand Prix.
When she says he is too hot for her, she knows what she can win on.
Barbria was a great horse for the Dutch team, but hot and well known to "boil over" in the test. I would suspect that with fitness and the increasingly emotionally testing demands of the top level tests, a horse like Quaterback that is hot to begin with is not everyone's cup of tea.

[Donella]

And it may very well be that he isn't her kind of horse. But I would be shocked if nobody in the country wanted to or was able to ride quaterback offspring. Not only that, the horse himself isn't "hot". It is also very unlikely that any of his offspring will move like he does as I have never seen any mare move like that.

Anyways, I was just reading up on Florencio ..one of my fav "fashionables" and noticed that in 2007 he won his first Prix St G. test out in Germany. I am sure a few years ago if this topic was posted and he was brought up everyone would be saying how he wont end up cutting it, he is just a fling ect ect, he' break down . Just an example, there are lots more like him.

I bet you though that the "old timers" in Germany were saying these very things about the "new/fashionable" horses like Absatz, Brentano, Rubenstien ect. I would bet a 100 bucks they were suspicious of them for the first while.

[Edgar]

All the hot fashionable pedigrees descend from older lines. If this was a youngster who had a modern type and did a good 70 day test and showed talent in the show ring it could be a popular stallion if given a proper show career and reasonable marketing or standing at a busy barn. If it is a single stallion at a newly unknown station it would take a lot longer to get the breeding numbers up or never happen. The problem occurs when the offspring are a throwback to the old type and breeders will lose interest until worldcup and Olympic offspring are amongst his get... ( by that time he is ready to kick the bucket and you hope you have frozen semen )

[not again]

Regardless of fashion, a top dressage prospect should have three equally superb gaits, not just one.

[Tasker]

My best example of 'fashionable' at the moment is Quaterback. Why? Because I know as a rider that I do NOT ride hot horses easily and without struggle. I can not think of ONE person that I come into daily contact with that could ride that horse's movement & gaits. Therefore, looking at the local 'market' breeding to him would be for fashion...knowingly breeding to a stallion will result in a foal that I (more than likely) can NOT ride.

In all fairness, if everyone were to use that breeding philosophy then there would be very ,very few upperlevel showjumper or dressage horses. Alot of people cannot ride a top show jumper and alot of dressage riders cannot ride a huge moving warmblood. But at the top of sport, that is what the riders want. And I know enough people in my area that could ride a horse like that (of course alot couldnt either). If you are breeding for yourself then clearly he wouldn't be a good choice for you but to say that it's wrong to breed to a stallion like QB because your or some other people could not ride him is a little unfair.

Since not again defended my riding skills (or lack thereof) I will leave that part alone. :D

Donella - it is not to say that Quaterback is not a fabulous horse with a unique way of moving. I am just saying that the average rider(not just some of them either - the VAST majority of dressage riders), with $$ to spend on a prospect for THEIR dream horse, can NOT ride a horse with this type of movement. They may say they want to, but believe me, if they are having trouble with Steady-Eddy-the-GP-Schoolmaster, then there is no way they can ride a horse with these huge gaits. Unless you have a huge stroke of luck, breeders are breeding for the 80% of the riding population. In dressage that means 2nd level. Maybe 3rd. Oh and this is also a horse that this individual can have started properly (by themselves or a professional) and that doesn't result in a disaster. The other 20% is broken down into those 15% who either don't show and are training level riders (not one thing wrong with this either) and the 4% that show PSG & Intermediare. The 1% that show GP are not generally shopping for foals. Which leads back to my original statement - I don't know anyone who will ride this horse in a daily program.

You also asked why I call this horse 'hot'...I honestly don't know what else you would call HUGE gaits, a light mouth and a tendency to passage. Most riders would grip with their thighs (driving the back further down), grab the mouth (shortening the frame) and the vicious cycle would begin...end result (from experience) - the horse becomes tighter & tighter and explodes. A horse like this is not for a single horse owner/rider. The rider will have to be incredibly fit, athletic with superb timing and the gift of teaching their mount all that it needs to know as it progresses up the levels. How many upper level riders do you know that want to do this for years on end with a horse that could be more explosive than its sire?

Absatz, Bolero, et al - they were brought in to refine the old clunkers that were the mainstream Hanoverians at the time. FWIW - there was a movement to eliminate the piaffe from the Olympic tests around the time those sires came into the picture...since the FEI kept the piaffe, more blood was needed for the breed to survive & to be competitive. We had Abundance (by Absatz) here for most of my youth...he needed TB blood (and a lot of it) to be able to produce Olympic athletes...which he did time & again.

Florencio is/was interesting to me at the time as we have a high percentage of TB blood in our program. His EVA status eliminated him from further consideration as did the wait & see what he does in the ring policy. :) Great moving horse but again, what Adult Amatuer with 1 horse to ride each day will be able to ride THAT movement?

Edgar - wasn't Stakkato a bit hot as a sire at the beginning of his career and then his popularity waned due to the lack of 'type' and then didn't it pick up as his offspring proved themselves (in spite of being plain headed/coarse) in the ring?

not again - you left out another big factor that a dressage sire is required to bring - correct conformation. Crooked limbs & poor conformation tip the odds of unsoundness a bit higher as the beast is expected to advance up the levels. :)

[not again]

The riders' philosophy of riding what you know is not unique. Maybe the non-riders who run registries could consider this in mare and stallion approval. Here is Kyra Kyrklund's take on it:

http://www.kyrak.com/younghorses.htm

The big disconnect in breeding for the top levels in any international equestrian sport is the time line. In the USA we need more input from the top riders to produce horses for them as well as their students, who are the future of the sport.

A good horse is never out of fashion.

[Tiki]

In the USA we need more input from the top riders to produce horses for them as well as their students, who are the future of the sport.
Oh, wouldn't I love to see just that happen. Unfortunately, almost all of the top riders in this country bought their horses overseas - already made - AND they have European trainers who have contacts in Germany and the Netherlands and they do not shop in this country for horses or foals!

We are now breeding horses that, as youngsters, are fully competitive with those bred in Europe. Once they hit the age where they are to go under saddle, . . . . . we lose!!! We just don't have the trainers in this country, nor the riders that can ride young horses. They have to be made already for maybe 90% of our riders. And don't start naming 3 or 4 riders who have done reasonaby well with young horses here, because that's not very many trainers/riders available for all the young horses here.

Also, if you look at the horses in the young horse lists, it's only in the last year or so that you start to see some American bred horses. The imported horses are still predominant and still winning. Why is that? Are they better horses??? NO!! But, they are started in Europe - correctly - at 3yo, and are well on their way when they get here - and THAT is what makes the difference.

[not again]

Actually some of the biggest names, in dressage particularly, have expressed their frustration with what they have bought in Europe. For the riders I am in contact with, shopping American is no problem.... but finding comparable quality for the money is hard. Our horses need to score 8 or above in the young horse test to be competitive in that market, or have an innate gift for two and one tempis, piaffe, and passage to bring big money as an upper level prospect. While the walk pirouettes and the double rein back have been removed from the grand prix test, anything with a coeffficient like the walk, transitions etc are going to be what makes or breaks the sale. And don't forget the canter, because it is the gait which generates the most points and must be supplied by the horses, not the training.

[Tiki]

not again, are you saying that the top riders WILL look at American bred horses if they can score 8 or above in the Young Horse Tests? Is THAT a way to get our horses looked at and marketed/sold???

[Dressage_Diva333]

Bloodlines are always a plus, but I feel that if the horse in front of you is exceptional, then there you go.

My stallion prospect is by the stallion, Bas Blanc, who not many people have heard of. But I feel that my colt has a lot to offer. I bought my colt, but also bred one of my mares to Bas Blanc. I feel that he has a lot to offer as well when bred to the right mare. He has "old school" Selle Francais bloodlines, but he was an AMAZING jumper, with an awesome temperment, and powerful canter. I feel that my colt has improved upon Bas Blanc a bit, by being a lot lighter boned, and having a more expressive trot. While still maintining his sire's walk and canter.