New TB mare - pedigree critique :)

[goodmorning]

I am thrilled to have found this mare, she is just lovely. Huge step, shoulder, and great substance. I would love to hear thoughts on her pedigree, and for those very knowledgeable with TB blood, current stallions/lines that would match well with hers to produce a fancy hunter. Dressage and jumpers have lines that are proven crosses, it may be too much to ask when it comes to TB sport-horse breeding, but it's worth a try :yes:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/time+cap

[vineyridge]

You are in the NE, right? Do you care if the foal is registered JC? If so, are you willing to send her off for live cover?

Take a look at Castle Cove for a TB starter for fancy hunters. Or Rock Point, if he's still breeding.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/castle+cove
http://www.pedigreequery.com/rock+point

They are both in Virginia.

If you don't care about JC registration, then your universe of TB stallions is greatly widened. There are several in Canada that are worth looking at:
A Fine Romance
Lanciano
are both worth looking at closely.

[JumperForJoy]

You can NOT go wrong with and mares that have close Slew lines. They have hearts of gold and are, in my opinion, the best TB proformers available.

I just found my second Slew mare (By Slewdledo, WA). She is ATHLETIC just like my previous mare (by Slew the Bride, CA). My friends and trainners back in CA have owned them as well. All did fabulous. Breed her to a nice hipped WB stallion. You cant go wrong.

Enjoy!:cool:

[goodmorning]

Yes, I am in NE and would love a JC registered foal. However, it's becoming quite the task to find something within a reasonable distance. I found this guy, http://www.pedigreequery.com/real+partner

and possibly this one
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mattress

All within a reasonable distance...of course I have to do more research on both, and even if they are promising, what are the chances they will be the correct type for this mare.

But hey, I could breed her to A Fine Romance and have a Old NA registered TB! :lol: I wonder if you can register them with both the Jockey Club and Old NA...

Rock Point would be a great match, but I don't believe he is standing anymore. He is not listed on the website, but for him I would consider sending her down...

vineyridge, can you tell me a little more about her pedigree? I'm not familiar with Captain my Captain, but I like the Turn To up close.

[Sassenach]

LOVE the Slews! :yes::yes:

Best darn horse I've ever ridden was a son of Seattle Slew. He was SMART SMART SMART and had a 'ooh that's fun! What's next? Whee!' attitude toward work :)

[Fenway]

Actually, if you are interested in Rock Point, I'd contact the MARE center in Middleburg, VA. That's where he is and I asked early this year if they'd breed to outside mares and they said that they would.:)
http://www.apsc.vt.edu/centers/mare/marechome.htm

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I picked these two since I think the pedigress would be an interesting cross.

Might be interesting to send her to Salute the Truth.

http://www.dodonfarm.com/willy1.html

It wouldn't be too too far. He is definately an athlete...and it might give you several different markets (he's known in the eventing world).

I'd also consider Mystic Replica....those babamist decendents can usually jump...and with the Seatle slew hopefully giving more of the movement and ridability...it might be an interesting cross. Also not terribly far and marketable in the event world if it doesn't seem to be a hunter.

http://www.lanefieldfarm.com/mysticreplica.htm


Eventing is probably were you are going to find a lot of proven TB sport lines..... Movement and good jumping are critical to that sport. I've sold most of my failed eventers as very nice (and fancy) hunters. There are a few top hunter trainers that get a lot of their prospects from eventers.

If you are truly marketing for a fancy hunter....I would think the most marketable thing would be to cross with a WB...since that seems to be more of the market in that world at this time. (Although I love a good TB!!)

[vineyridge]

The more I study and learn, the more hypotheses of TB breeding for sport I'm coming to develop.

One is that you have to consider the foal's linebreeding always, no matter how far back it is. Another is that you will not have a sport horse unless at least two of three of the foundation sires are in the first five generations. A horse that is all Eclipse line on the first pedigree page, in my opinion, is not a very good bet to be a top class TB sport horse. Yet another is that you HAVE to linebreed in TBs; the gene pool is so small that you have to expect linebreeding consequences, so you might as well plan them.

For instance, I would not put this mare to any stallion with Seattle Slew on the first page, which these days probably means none. Reason--SS is famous for producing really good foals and really lousy ones. There almost no middle ground. Doubling him would double the risk that you might get the really lousy one instead of the really good one you're hoping for.

The nicest close up huntery thing in her pedigree is Diplomat Way. That could give some leads on what to look for in a stallion.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

For instance, I would not put this mare to any stallion with Seattle Slew on the first page, which these days probably means none. Reason--SS is famous for producing really good foals and really lousy ones. There almost no middle ground. Doubling him would double the risk that you might get the really lousy one instead of the really good one you're hoping for.




Funny you said that...it was the reason I suggested to two stallions that I did...no Seattle Slew. While not "hunter" types...they are nice TB stallions with good sport pedigrees. Given what I know about Babmist lines (first hand)...I would probably pick Salute the Truth for this mare. And looking at his offspring....many of them look like the could go into the show ring.

OT--Vineyridge, Who are the three foundation sires that you are speaking about wanting in the first 5 generations? I would think Turn-to is one....but I really have no idea.

[vineyridge]

OT--Vineyridge, Who are the three foundation sires that you are speaking about wanting in the first 5 generations? I would think Turn-to is one....but I really have no idea.

Deep in the mists of history, the sire lines of the TB were reduced to only three--all thoroughbreds descend from one of three horses, each one of whom descends from a different sire line. The three are: Darley Arabian, or the Eclipse line, from which about 90% of all American (maybe worldwide) TBs descend; Godolphin Arabian, or the Matchem line, which is primarily represented today by descendants of Precipitation and Man O'War; and the Byerly Turk, or Herod line, which is again, primarily represented by the Tourbillon/Dollar and Le Sancy lines, which are getting rarer and rarer.

If you can find a representative of all three of the lines of the same page, you'll find that they will probably be better sires than one who is all Eclipse. For instance, if you look at Turn-To, he has a line to Matchem through Marco in the 5th and a line to Herod through The Tetrarch, also in the fifth. Every other line is Eclipse. But my theory is that those two outcrossings help make him the sire that he was and helped pass on the jump genes that are present in those lines, as well as the Eclipse line genes from all the other sire lines in his pedigree. If you look at the two sires you proposed you will see a nice mix of all three of the foundation lines on the first page.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Deep in the mists of history, the sire lines of the TB were reduced to only three--all thoroughbreds descend from one of three horses, each one of whom descends from a different sire line. The three are: Darley Arabian, or the Eclipse line, from which about 90% of all American (maybe worldwide) TBs descend; Godolphin Arabian, or the Matchem line, which is primarily represented today by descendants of Precipitation and Man O'War; and the Byerly Turk, or Herod line, which is again, primarily represented by the Tourbillon/Dollar and Le Sancy lines, which are getting rarer and rarer.

If you can find a representative of all three of the lines of the same page, you'll find that they will probably be better sires than one who is all Eclipse. For instance, if you look at Turn-To, he has a line to Matchem through Marco in the 5th and a line to Herod through The Tetrarch, also in the fifth. Every other line is Eclipse. But my theory is that those two outcrossings help make him the sire that he was and helped pass on the jump genes that are present in those lines, as well as the Eclipse line genes from all the other sire lines in his pedigree. If you look at the two sires you proposed you will see a nice mix of all three of the foundation lines on the first page.

Thank you. That makes a lot of sense and very educational....Looking back on the pedigrees I like for TB sports sires, I think I came to your same conclusion without really understanding the reasons I was coming to that conclusion...now I can look at these with a bit more educated eye.

[DeeThbd]

You are in the NE, right? Do you care if the foal is registered JC? If so, are you willing to send her off for live cover?

Take a look at Castle Cove for a TB starter for fancy hunters. Or Rock Point, if he's still breeding.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/castle+cove
http://www.pedigreequery.com/rock+point

They are both in Virginia.

If you don't care about JC registration, then your universe of TB stallions is greatly widened. There are several in Canada that are worth looking at:
A Fine Romance
Lanciano
are both worth looking at closely.

Um....up here in the wild arctic of Canada, our registered TBs ARE JC registered (and even CTHS registered too)....ever hear of a little horse named Northern Dancer? :D
So....yes, you would have a fully registered TB if breeding to A Fine Romance;, as you would with Lanciano. If I am correct, the latter was being crossed to draft (PMU?) mares out west. Same rules apply up here - live cover, etc.
Hope you don't mind my clarifying what we maple syrup eaters do up here with our TBs (aside from building igloos for them and training them alongside the polar bears!
Dee

[vineyridge]

I do apologize for my poor choice of words.

I was thinking that a non-racing US owner might be less willing to ship a mare to Canada for live cover; but the two TB stallions I mentioned (and there are others, of course) definitely will do AI. With AI, though, you lose all possibility of JC registration. :cry:

[fish]

You may want to look at Minister General (by Deputy Minister), owned by SymRanch (Symmetry Ranch if you want to Google). He's produced some wonderful H/J prospects, including an IHF champion, and seems a pretty good outcross to your mare.

Another suggestion is to look at the IHF site so you can research the many TB stallions whose offspring have done well there. Personally, one line I'd really like to see more of in your mare's pedigree would be Princequillo's, especially through Speak John or Poker. I wouldn't be surprised if My Charmer, the Poker mare who produced Seattle Slew, has a lot to do with Slew's production of good hunters. After all, her son, Charming Turn (by Turn To) sired one of the best hunters ever: AHSA HOY, Monday Morning.

[goodmorning]

After all, her son, Charming Turn (by Turn To) sired one of the best hunters ever: AHSA HOY, Monday Morning.

Interestingly enough, Charming Turn has multiple outcrosses to Marco/The Tetrarch via Sweet Lavender and Mumtaz....although it is further back in the pedigree, hmm...

Sadly enough, it is much easier for me to find a WB stallion for this mare. However, I am breeding for myself, and would like a 100% TB hunter.

Going through all this, it's no wonder why Private Account is such a regarded sire, as is Rock Point...great lines...

What line does St. Simon represent?

[dblitz]

From what I can find, St. Simon is Godolphin Arabian/ Darley Arabian with a little Byerly Turk He has a lot of Eclipse Herod crosses

[vineyridge]

St. Simon is tail male Eclipse, and he and Stockwell are the primary reasons that 90% of modern day TBs are Eclipse line.

There were two Eclipses, one in 1855, who is not the foundation Eclipse, and the real one from the late 1700's who mostly survives through his son Pot8os, by way of Waxy and Whalebone.

[TKR]

What about Silly Mommy's Thoroughbred stallion -- I can't think of his real name, but she calls him "Yak" -- he's in the NE and has shown successfully in the hunter ring. I don't know his bloodlines, but I think his sire also showed. His name might be Mandate or something with that in his name.

What about the lady who owned Bit of Class -- he was lovely and has a son now standing, I believe -- in Virginia?

You couldn't go wrong with A Fine Romance, so that would be a no-brainer. There is a lady in Ohio who has a Twist-line stallion, she posts here and her farm is Twist of Fate. I think Husband stands in New York, also -- very handsome and has some sporthorses on the ground.

If you check the stallion register published by The Blood Horse or The Thoroughbred Times, you can find stallions in your area and if you do live cover on a Thoroughbred mare, it doesn't matter what you do with the foal, they would still breed her. You can sometimes get a discount through an agent if the stallion isn't booking full. They have photos with many of the ads now and a full pedigree.

Good luck!
PennyG

[vineyridge]

Silly Mommy says she is going to geld Yak (Jaime's Mandate) before summer and send him off to hunter land. She says she'll be keeping some frozen, but the live cover option will only be available for a few more weeks.

[silver2]

I personally like seeing Turn To that close up and Seattle Slew. Seems very nicely bred.

[acottongim]

While I like the Seattle Slew and the Turn To so close up.. can I just say that I am THRILLED that you have Diplomat Way so close??? I have a DW g'daughter that I LOVE, and her offspring and granddaughters are just awesome also. The temperment is to die for. DW was known as a broodmare sire (wasn't he like the number one broodmare sire in the US for a while??, I can't remember) and he is the damsire of Skip Away who was a two time Eclipse Award Winner. What very few DW babies/g'babies you see out there are generally pretty awesome over fences and are great athletes (from what I've seen). My mare is on my website (Encore) as well as all the offspring etc.