Ignorant owner question about AWS inspections

[Peace of Cake]

I have an AHS mare, bred to an AWS stallion. Due June 22nd. The mare still has to be approved AWS, which won't be a problem. I was going to take her and her foal to approvals this year, but the approvals are on May 3rd. Do I take the foal next year? I am confused. I'm a thoroughbred breeder trying to be a warmblood wannabe:lol:

[Fairview Horse Center]

Is the foal elegible for an AHS Certificate of Pedigree?

[Peace of Cake]

I don't think so but I could be wrong. The stallion is Indian Art, a son of Art Deco. He is only AWS approved. Can I get a cert. of pedigree from AHS based on this? The mare is approved German and US Hann. Like I said, I am ignorant.

[Fairview Horse Center]

If your mare is AHS approved, they will issue a CP on her offspring. That does not mean regular registration, but it does make the horse eligible for breed awards and classes, and gives them a documented pedigree. That is the way I went with my Hanoverian mare's babies.

[Janet]

You can take the foal to AWS inspection at any age. I took my AWS gelding to inspection at age 2.

[Peace of Cake]

Thanks Fairview and Janet. I will go through AHS first, and then AWS.

[Sandra6500]

Well this is a sore sunject for me and I always get bashed.

I don't see the point of taking a nice mare and getting her approved through a registry like AWS. Its totally meaningless. Even a CP from AHS would be more meaningful.

[pintofoal]

The stallion is Indian Art, a son of Art Deco. He is only AWS approved.

I don't know if the owner would be game, but he really should present that stallion to RPSI and the Oldenburg registries -- If this is the same horse I am thinking of I would think he would pass in a heart beat and since he has such an outstanding sports record in advanced level eventing and I also believe FEI dressage, he would already have met the sports requirements for full approval. This would give mare owners more options for various inspection be it with AWS, OLD or RPSI. You should try and talk the owner into it. :yes: I believe the stallion is also for sale, but again I think it would also help with marketability as a breeding stallion to a perspective buyer.

[tri]

Can you get a COP from one registry and then registered with the other?? The COP is not registration, just something that documents the pedigree.

I hate it when ignorant people make blanket statements about registries such as Sandra did.

[Sandra6500]

I hate it when ignorant people make blanket statements about registries such as Sandra did.

Call me ignorant all you want. the AWS is a JOKE.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Call me ignorant all you want. the AWS is a JOKE.

There are "jokes" in EVERY association........

[~Freedom~]

There are "jokes" in EVERY association........

Agree.


Also in the human population, so (Sandra6500) it is sometimes best to keep silent otherwise we find out just who fits that description.

[sporthorsefilly]

I agree go AHS for certificate of pedigree. AWS isn't worth spending any money on.

[Janet]

When I bought a weanling colt (gelding prospect), I had a choice of COP (or equivalent), but NOT "registration" with Selle Francais or Irish Draft, or registration with AWS.

I chose AWS.

He has since been inspected and approved ("Red Preferred") AWS.

[tri]

So the stallion and mares that are approved with the AWS are jokes but the same mares and stallions that are also approved with other registries - such as the OP's mare who is hanoverian - are not?

Keep in mind that I don't have any horses in the AWS but I do know that many of the stallions who are in the top book of the AWS are also approved KWPN, Oldna, Old Verband, Canadian, RPSI, etc and that goes for many of the mares in the top books as well.

Now if you want to qualify your ignorant statement with the horses in the lower books are a joke, you might have some kind of position but you need to keep in mind that those horses are NOT approved for breeding - it is registration & tracking purposes only......like all the other european warmblood registries are required to do by law.

With all the talk on this forum about registered or unregistered horses, I'm surprized some of you would want an unregistered horse that the COP gives versus fully registered horse.

[Adamantane]

Someone help me to understand what is the reasons underlying negative comments about AWS.

Not trying to be cute and have no agenda. I know people with AWS registered horses and so just want to understand the basis for the controversy, hopefully in the simplest possible terms to match my lack of knowledge.

[carolprudm]

People dislike the AWS because they will register just about anything.

However their APROVALS are much more limited, a fact conveniently forgotten

[Sandra6500]

The AWS is frowned upon many people for many reasons, but here are some of the main ones that I think of.

First of... Most the horses are not warmbloods. I'm sick of the argument that if you breed a TB to a draft you actually have a warmblooded horse, hence a WB. You can dumb down a definition of something enough to make it fit what you want it to be but a draft cross will never be a warmblood.

Secondly by giving a "designer name" to a mutt- which is often not suited toward any specific purpose- they are still encouraging the breeding of those horses. A lot of the same people that get all up in arms about horse slaughter ironically will chime in here and will say they support the AWS.

We have more horses that we have homes for. People need to be breeding the best to the best. Not something to something because they can- and the AWS is even ENCOURAGING it.

I have been to an AWS inspection and watched what they APPROVED for their breeding stock. The same horses would often have been turned away from any of the other registries which are actually more interested in maintaining a high quality standard instead of $$$$.

Most of the horses coming out of an AWS breeding program are all around type horses. Low level everything. If we breed with that goal in mind we will never succeed in breeding better horses. You can breed the best to the best and get average. Why breed average to average and MAYBE get the same?

I understand that not everyone needs a big giant fancy moving WB. But if we want to breed we have a responsibility to breed horses that are going to be good at the job they are bred to do (whether its a WB, TB, QH, etc). If you want an all around horse there are lots around already.

With as many so-so horses we don't need an unethical organization encouraging the breeding of draft crosses, QH mutts, etc.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Basically, the AWS is not European. The AWS also has no pedigree requirement for their lower books, so many people like to claim that they will take anything. They will LOOK at anything for their lower books, but their highest book, just like the European registries requires DNA proven, 4 generations of European Warmblood, TB pedigree. Most of the European registries will also inspect mares of unknown pedigree, and issue papers/brand their foals.

(Hey, I believe that is the first time I have said it in 2008 - I must be slipping)

The American Warmblood registries also have an association issue problem because anyone that has a Perchywalkaloosa will advertise it as an American Warmblood, even though it has nothing to do with the registries.

Unfortunately, like with most things in society, people elevate themselves by putting down others. People driving imported cars look down upon Chevy and Ford drivers too.

There is a need for the AWS as they do a good job of documenting pedigree, awards, and education at their inspections.

Many of the registries are basically run by a single person, and breeders/members have no say in how the organization is run. This is why I believe (ok, here comes my broken record) ;) we need a ... North American Warmblood & Sporthorse Breeders Association run by an ELECTED board of breeders, riders, trainers, judges, and vets.

(Hey, I believe that is the first time I have said it in 2008 - I must be slipping. :lol: )

[canticle]

Many people like the AWS precisely because it is so different from the European registries. They actually prefer the direction and the results.

You don't have to like the registry, but be careful about calling it a joke. Many people are probably thinking the same thing about you but politely keeping their mouths shut! :winkgrin:

[Janet]

People need to be breeding the best to the best. Not something to something because they can- and the AWS is even ENCOURAGING it.

Most of the horses coming out of an AWS breeding program are all around type horses. Low level everything. If we breed with that goal in mind we will never succeed in breeding better horses. You can breed the best to the best and get average. Why breed average to average and MAYBE get the same? I beg to differ.

Both the sire and the damsire of my AWS gelding are successful Grand Prix Jumpers. They just happen to be different breeds, that do not give full registration to crosses. The sire is also a successful eventer (aiming for the 2010 WEG), and the dam is a successful eventer too.

His breeder (not me, I bought him as a weanling) WAS breeding "the best to the best" and aiming for an "upper level" horse, who will also be "amateur friendly".

[Fairview Horse Center]

First of... Most the horses are not warmbloods. I'm sick of the argument that if you breed a TB to a draft you actually have a warmblooded horse, hence a WB. You can dumb down a definition of something enough to make it fit what you want it to be but a draft cross will never be a warmblood.

The AWS has NEVER said to cross hot and cold to get warm. I think if you scan down their stallion list, you will see that most ARE Warmbloods.

Secondly by giving a "designer name" to a mutt- which is often not suited toward any specific purpose- they are still encouraging the breeding of those horses.

No, they do not. The RHPSI gives that name to anything. :confused: Do you have a problem with them too?

I have been to an AWS inspection and watched what they APPROVED for their breeding stock. The same horses would often have been turned away from any of the other registries which are actually more interested in maintaining a high quality standard instead of $$$$.

Have you checked out some of the mares approved into the MMB of these European registries? :eek: :o OTOH, I have a Westfalen branded mare. She is MMB ISR/OLD & was the USDF 4th place Maiden & Yeld Mare of the year for 2007. She was presented AWS, and didn't quite make the score to be approved. She does now have her winning Dressage at Devon score, so I can submit that for her to be upgraded with the AWS for approval. The AWS happens to feel that their approved mares should be every bit as nice as the approved stallions. Does ANY other registry do that? Nope.

You can breed the best to the best and get average. Why breed average to average and MAYBE get the same?

I am certainly not breeding average. But, if you do breed Olympic horse to Olympic horse, and DON'T get a horse for Anky, that horse is much more likely to be sold for meat than a nice, easy going amateur horse. It will not have the temperament or rideability for lesser talented riders.

I understand that not everyone needs a big giant fancy moving WB. If you want an all around horse there are lots around already.

No there are not. I have trainers desperately looking for a nice, easy going amateur mount. Mine happen to have a lot of talent too. My one that is ready to go has been dealing with a stone bruise, and the buyers are waiting, and waiting. My horse that is the problem to sell is the one with FEI talent. He is sensitive, huge gaits, and is too much horse for most amateurs.

[Adamantane]

Let me ask another question, this one on the history of such organizations waaay, waay back.
How did the earliest registries determine which horses were acceptable and which were not, back at a point when there may have been some individual pedigrees (because a few landed gentry or aristocrats who bred horses wrote them down and tracked them for a few generations), but it was all informal? (I think Andalusians and some others were all established as breeds hundreds of years back or more where the origins were los in time, but that isn't true, is it, for some of the northern European horses.)

I'm assuming for breeds that are 'new' it's because individual horses they accepted met some appearance and performance criteria, and once they were "in" their offspring (bred from others who were "in") also got in, automatically, irrespective of how they looked or how well they did whatever their particular breed was known for doing.

Everything has to start somewhere, and there were horses forever before any of these organizations started trying to keep track of who's who.

I appreciate everyone's effort to help educate me.

[Janet]

Let me ask another question, this one on the history of such organizations waaay, waay back.
How did the earliest registries determine which horses were acceptable and which were not, back at a point when there may have been some individual pedigrees (because a few landed gentry or aristocrats who bred horses wrote them down and tracked them for a few generations), but it was all informal? For most of the European Warmblood registries, they started off with the Army setting criteria for which horses they would buy for the cavalry. Much like the American "Remount" program.

[sporthorsefilly]

Most of what has already been said about AWS is fairly accurate, however, they do have some very nice horses registered with them, those with excellent European Pedigrees. My main complaint about AWS is that it is run by Two People who "decide" how to do everything. Oh yes, there is a Board, but they don't ask for or accept suggestions of any kind. Like: why not print the newsletter in a more modern way rather than using a Mimeograph machine? Or why not do a nice color Stallion Guide...nope...Mimeograph. Cheap, crude, and antiquated.

For example, the 2007 in hand "horse of the year" supposedly had a score of 83.5...I checked all the scores for the horse (as I showed against the horse)...NO scores of 83.5...I told AWS, it doesn't matter, they ignore you.

My mare was #1 AWS/USDF/DSHB Mature Horse (third year in a row)..so AWS put a 3 year old into her division...funny USDF doesn't critique/ judge the 3 yr olds the same way they do the 4 year old maiden yeld mares.

Their web page stated that any horse winning a "National Championship" was to go into their "hall of fame"...so in their unique arbitrally manner, just "changed" what they "meant" by National Champion...geez the Rosette that I accepted at the USEF/PHR/SS Awards SAYS National Champion...but AWS makes "their own unique decisions. they also do NOT support the USDF/DSHB Awards...therefore, as a breeder, I find them quite useless.

The fact that the majority of European Registries do not accept AWS registered horses, for approval, makes one wonder why anyone would want to register with them.

No AWS for me!!!

[chrissymack]

<sigh>...I'll bite... of course, we all know the good and the bad of the AWS. It's a matter of preference, and what you hold most important.

They have always been really good about replying to emails, etc. with questions I have asked, their fees are SUBSTANTIALLY lower than other registries, and they do have many positive points.
(The newsletter admittedly looks like less than professional/stellar for what I'd expect from a breed registry).

My main disappointment with the AWS is that they will not recognize Hunters as a discipline. I had asked a while back, and the reply was along the lines that being a part of the WBF and holding their standards high for the top horses in the WORLD, they recognizes sport horses of the WORLD, and hunters are not recognized as a sport in Europe and many parts of said world.

I can understand this, but at the same time, it's the AMERICAN warmblood society...you'd think they would be looking to acknowledge and promote the most popular discipline in AMERICA. I would have thought that this could have been their strength, and set them apart from some of the European-based registries (something the AWR has caught onto)...

Bummer.

[Adamantane]

Most of what has already been said about AWS is fairly accurate, however, they do have some very nice horses registered with them, those with excellent European Pedigrees. My main complaint about AWS is that it is run by Two People who "decide" how to do everything. Oh yes, there is a Board, but they don't ask for or accept suggestions of any kind. Like: why not print the newsletter in a more modern way rather than using a Mimeograph machine? Or why not do a nice color Stallion Guide...nope...Mimeograph. Cheap, crude, and antiquated.

For example, the 2007 in hand "horse of the year" supposedly had a score of 83.5...I checked all the scores for the horse (as I showed against the horse)...NO scores of 83.5...I told AWS, it doesn't matter, they ignore you.

My mare was #1 AWS/USDF/DSHB Mature Horse (third year in a row)..so AWS put a 3 year old into her division...funny USDF doesn't critique/ judge the 3 yr olds the same way they do the 4 year old maiden yeld mares.

Their web page stated that any horse winning a "National Championship" was to go into their "hall of fame"...so in their unique arbitrally manner, just "changed" what they "meant" by National Champion...geez the Rosette that I accepted at the USEF/PHR/SS Awards SAYS National Champion...but AWS makes "their own unique decisions. they also do NOT support the USDF/DSHB Awards...therefore, as a breeder, I find them quite useless.

The fact that the majority of European Registries do not accept AWS registered horses, for approval, makes one wonder why anyone would want to register with them.

No AWS for me!!!

It seems odd to me that they would quibble about something reasonable like recognizing awards of topnotch provenance. Would think it would enhance their program to do so.

It also seems strange that anyone would use a mimeograph for anything nowadays, mainly because getting supplies for one must be nearly impossible in the first world.

Not responding to inquiries could, I suppose, bedue to a shortage of office staff, but it never reflects well when people don't acknowledge their mail.

Yours sound like perfectly sensible complaints, and all of them seem to be easily avoidable on their part.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Okay, I'm not an AWS fan. I keep hearing how they are selective about what they approve for breeding (not just for recording). But this has not been my first-hand experience. I have been to several inspections in my area, and I have seen, first hand horses approved for breeding that just don't seem up to par with what I see at the other breed inspections close to me. I have seen several Colonial Spanish Mustang mares approved in the breeding books and while they were cute little things, they weren't what I would consider a "warmblood" either by pedigree or by "type". I saw a TB stallion get turned down, but the inspector did announce that "once his breeder presented three foals by him, he would be able to be approved". I saw a standardbred mare approved for breeding that probably wouldn't have been accepted by most other registries. So, to each his own, but I haven't been impressed with a lot of the horses that are accepted. I don't care if anyone else wants to use them, but for me and my program is just isn't the direction in which I'm going. I don't think we need to "bash" any particular registry. God knows, with all the different registries out there, there is probably one that will fit any breeder's goals. Just choose the one that makes you happy.
I will say, though, that some of the horses approved by them are very nice, I just see a huge lack of consistency in what they accept.

[Janet]

It also seems strange that anyone would use a mimeograph for anything nowadays, mainly because getting supplies for one must be nearly impossible in the first world.
It is definitely NOT memeographed. But it looks as if in might be cut-and-paste-and-xerox.

[carolprudm]

Let me ask another question, this one on the history of such organizations waaay, waay back.
How did the earliest registries determine which horses were acceptable and which were not, back at a point when there may have been some individual pedigrees (because a few landed gentry or aristocrats who bred horses wrote them down and tracked them for a few generations), but it was all informal? (I think Andalusians and some others were all established as breeds hundreds of years back or more where the origins were los in time, but that isn't true, is it, for some of the northern European horses.)

I'm assuming for breeds that are 'new' it's because individual horses they accepted met some appearance and performance criteria, and once they were "in" their offspring (bred from others who were "in") also got in, automatically, irrespective of how they looked or how well they did whatever their particular breed was known for doing.

Everything has to start somewhere, and there were horses forever before any of these organizations started trying to keep track of who's who.

I appreciate everyone's effort to help educate me.
How far "way back" are you thinking? If you look at the German horses of 50 or even fewer years ago they are very different than the current crop.

And with the possible exception of the Trakener, they aren't breeds, they are regional registeries.

IMHO in another 50 years or less some of the breeders of the freaky dressage horses are going to look at their stock and say "Oops, what were we thinking? "

[canticle]

I think it is a great idea to incorporate Colonial Spanish Mustangs into a dressage breeding program, as they are very baroque in build. :yes:

[saltheart]

I'll chime in. I'm sorry that some of you seem to feel defensive about the negatives people have pointed out, but that last post kind of says it all - Spanish mustangs, standardbreds, saddlebreds, draft breeds, arabians, quarter horses, the list goes on of what gets approved. They ARE mutts, much more so than what most of us would consider "real" wb's. Heinz 57's is probably a more descriptive term.

My question, and I think the real question about the AWS is: What the hell are they trying to produce? What are the breed standards? Are there any? and how can you achieve anything resembling a standard when you are infusing such disparate types? If you crossed an Arabian stallion with a Clydesdale mare, the resulting offspring would be eligible to be an American warmblood. (Now my first question would be why would you do such a stupid cross to begin with, but that's just me...) What possible "breed" is created by that cross, that is the same "breed" as a tb/Hanoverian cross for instance?

It's utter nonsense.

[canticle]

It says a lot that they are supposedly bred haphazardly, and yet so many people STILL prefer them to "real" WBs! Whatever you hope to achieve by breeding European WBs, it just isn't good enough for a lot of people. Nothing wrong with them, but it just doesn't fit the bill for whatever reason. In your attempt to breed the "ultimate" horse, you have ended up created a horse that, quite frankly, not many people want. You won't be able to change this by lashing out at the successful breeders who ARE giving people what they want.

BTW, Arabians cross well with a wide variety of horses, and I'm not surprised at all at the decision to cross one with a Clydesdale.

[Sandra6500]

oh please... like the other registries only create horses that are not rideable by ammies.

Every registry should have a clear understanding and expectation of what they are trying to create.

Having been to more than one AWS inspection I can tell you that I saw some DREADFUL animals get approved for breeding. Not just random people saying they have an American WB as some people stated. The proof is in the pudding guys.

I don't even know how to respond to the comment about crossing a Clydesdale to an arab. Seriously? I mean REALLY? WHY? Everyone who has done ANY research on breeding understands that you seldom get something "in the middle". Ie if you breed a horse with a very long back to a horse with a very short back you will normally not get a horse with an average back but rather a horse with one or the other. I don't see the benefit of crossing such vastly different horses.

If you want a horse just like that you can buy one for 50 bucks at your local meat auction.

[saltheart]

You are not surprised at the decision to x an arab on a draft - fine. To what end such a cross?

This is absolutely, positively NO better than creating tiny little "designer" dogs - it's for MONEY. Pure and simple. Everybody gets up in arms about puppy mills, and unscrupulous backyard breeders creating schipperdoodles and pekachoos that will end up dead or in miserable conditions. But encouraging backyard breeding of two different types of horses to create a faux "warmblood" is ok?

You don't like European warmbloods? Great! Then what are you trying to create instead by breeding haphazardly? And what do you desire that you can't find in a purebred Arab, Quarterhorse, Thoroughbred, etc.? A competitive sport horse? I have a friend who used to win at the national level in the hunters on an American Saddlebred mare. I have won classes at huge dressage competitions on a Quarter horse.

Crossing an arab on a draft horse (simply because I am the one that initially used that example, I'll stick with it) is like breeding a greyhound to a St. Bernard. Whatever would you hope to accomplish by doing that? How will you "improve" a draft horse by potentially shrinking it and spunking it up - which, genetically is not likely...

I think the concept of an American Warmblood as a breed unto itself, like a Dutch warmblood, Swedish warmblood, any of the German warmbloods, is a noble one. I would love to see people strive for it. But our point, I believe, is that the AWS is too haphazard, too all over the map to get anything resembling a breed. It's just a collection of horses in a registry. And frankly, I don't know that the RPSI is any better - but I am not familiar with their practices. I am familiar with the AWS because I had a Hanoverian/AQHA gelding once.

[carolprudm]

You don't like European warmbloods? Great! Then what are you trying to create instead by breeding haphazardly? And what do you desire that you can't find in a purebred Arab, Quarterhorse, Thoroughbred, etc.? A competitive sport horse?

I don't like the direction the european WB registries are taking, particularly the dressage lines. IMHO certain of the younger dressage stallions are freaks, to use the term that others have used. (Why don't they just breed ASB's, that's the direction they are taking)

My breeding is by no means haphazard even if i don't follow their fads.

[canticle]

oh please... like the other registries only create horses that are not rideable by ammies.

Every registry should have a clear understanding and expectation of what they are trying to create.

Having been to more than one AWS inspection I can tell you that I saw some DREADFUL animals get approved for breeding. Not just random people saying they have an American WB as some people stated. The proof is in the pudding guys.
I've seen some dreadful European WBs. You have to do your homework no matter what. There's no way getting around that.
I don't even know how to respond to the comment about crossing a Clydesdale to an arab. Seriously? I mean REALLY? WHY? Everyone who has done ANY research on breeding understands that you seldom get something "in the middle". Ie if you breed a horse with a very long back to a horse with a very short back you will normally not get a horse with an average back but rather a horse with one or the other. I don't see the benefit of crossing such vastly different horses.

If you want a horse just like that you can buy one for 50 bucks at your local meat auction.
Draft crosses work, plain and simple. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. :D

[canticle]

You are not surprised at the decision to x an arab on a draft - fine. To what end such a cross?

This is absolutely, positively NO better than creating tiny little "designer" dogs - it's for MONEY. Pure and simple. Everybody gets up in arms about puppy mills, and unscrupulous backyard breeders creating schipperdoodles and pekachoos that will end up dead or in miserable conditions. But encouraging backyard breeding of two different types of horses to create a faux "warmblood" is ok?
So it's ok to do this in Europe but not ok in America?

[Fairview Horse Center]

The AWS breeding goal is to register, and encourage breeders to produce horses that will do well in Dressage, Jumping, Eventing, and Driving. I would like to see Hunters included too.

They are looking for a "type", not a breed. Many people sit back and are horrified when a non-traditional Warmblood breed is accepted, but there are very good moving and jumping horses in many breeds. Look at the Morgans. Very non-Warmblood, but that is a breed that has been very competitive with the Warmbloods in 100 Day Testings - placing 3rd at one testing, and 4th at another.

I believe we are going to see more of the non-traditional breeds used to produce Amateur horses for those disciplines. As the European Warmbloods look to breed for what they consider the "best", they will be too sensitive, (reactive) and forward thinking for our average rider. This is why we see the Friesians and other Baroque breeds becoming so popular. They have calmer, easier going brains.

[Horsecrazy27]

The AWS is frowned upon many people for many reasons, but here are some of the main ones that I think of.

First of... Most the horses are not warmbloods. I'm sick of the argument that if you breed a TB to a draft you actually have a warmblooded horse, hence a WB. You can dumb down a definition of something enough to make it fit what you want it to be but a draft cross will never be a warmblood.

Secondly by giving a "designer name" to a mutt- which is often not suited toward any specific purpose- they are still encouraging the breeding of those horses. A lot of the same people that get all up in arms about horse slaughter ironically will chime in here and will say they support the AWS.

We have more horses that we have homes for. People need to be breeding the best to the best. Not something to something because they can- and the AWS is even ENCOURAGING it.

I have been to an AWS inspection and watched what they APPROVED for their breeding stock. The same horses would often have been turned away from any of the other registries which are actually more interested in maintaining a high quality standard instead of $$$$.

Most of the horses coming out of an AWS breeding program are all around type horses. Low level everything. If we breed with that goal in mind we will never succeed in breeding better horses. You can breed the best to the best and get average. Why breed average to average and MAYBE get the same?

I understand that not everyone needs a big giant fancy moving WB. But if we want to breed we have a responsibility to breed horses that are going to be good at the job they are bred to do (whether its a WB, TB, QH, etc). If you want an all around horse there are lots around already.

With as many so-so horses we don't need an unethical organization encouraging the breeding of draft crosses, QH mutts, etc.


I have been to around 30 AWS inspections as well as others. I like having an "American" brand on my horses that are bred/born here in America. I'm PROUD to be an American and I think my horses should be branded from the COUNTRY they are born in. Our Economy needs us to support it---not other nations---in my opinion. Not saying that everyone has to do what I do--but, that is my personal feelings on it.

The last 5 inspections for AWS that I have gone to the sires were: Pablo, Fiener Stern, Salto, Fortune Hunter, Gatsby, Balta Czar, Art Deco, Rubinstien, Hall of Fame, Gaurdian, Manhattan---those are all the ones I can remember off the top---oh, wait, an Arabian stallion was bred to some really nice wb mares. The mares bred to the above were either other WB (Euro kind), TB's, Irish crosses, couple arabian mares, and I did see some Fresian crossed with TB's, I think 2 Qtr horse crossed with WB stallion. One was a Roemer (sp?) crossed to a Qtr mare, the other was a Fortune Hunter/Qtr mare who was absolutly stunning!!! At the last inspection, there was a Gatsby (sire) crossed to a mare who was Hannovarian/shire cross. Wasn't my cup of tea, but it also didn't score super well. I think it was scored with a 68. Just because a horse was "approved" with AWS doesn't mean it gets a terrific score. The last inspection, only 3 horses scored over 70, the others were in the mid 60's. The scoring is tough!! I haven't seen draft crossed wb's for years. Too bad people still think that is the AWS thing. Go to an inspection and get educated on what is happening NOW!!! Also, many of those draft crosses are just "certified"....no "approved" meaning they have a birth certificate. Is there something wrong with a horse having a birth certificate---if it isn't a Euro wb????????? I think all horses should have a source of confirmation of birth.

It is not a designer name for a mutt!!! I'm in shock over this comment. These poeple have worked very hard with coming up with a registery that Euro registerys respect. Too bad our own country doesn't respect it. Grass is greener. Too bad.

RPSI will accept horses from AWS---I believe if the pedigree is correct Oldenburg NA will too. If this is true why would stallion owners of above, like Rainbow EQ, have their boys with them---wouldn't that be insulting to their stallions? NOT!!

"Low level everything"??????????? LOL Oh dear. Don't tell that to these stallion owners:

A FLASH OF BRILLANCE
'A JAMAIS /*/*/ / / / – Supreme (Deceased)
ADELSSOHN – Elite
ADVERSARY – Nominated (10/08)
AEGYPT /*/ / / / / – Elite & Supreme
AF PISKO HUNKA – Supreme
ALEUTIAN – Elite
ALEXANDER /*/ / / / /
ALTEMUS /*/ / / / / – Elite
*AMERDROS /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme (10/08)
AMERICAN STEELE
*AMETHYST – Elite
ANTHEM /*/*/ / / / – Nominated (10/08)
*ARGENSOHN – Elite
ARGO /*/*/ / / / (10/08)
*ART DECO – Elite
*ASLAN – Elite (Deceased)
ATAHUAL-PA (ATA BOY)
BALTA' CZAR – Elite
*BARD MR.BELEVEDERE
BASHO /*/*/ / / /
BASKOS STARBURST /*/*/ / / / (Deceased)
BFF IN DISGUISE /*/*/*/ / /
*BLONDER HANS /*/ / / / / – Elite (10/08)
BOY OH BOY
BRUFIRE – Nominated
BURLEIGH MCDUFF (Deceased)
CALYPSO /*/*/ / / /
CAPRYO /*/ / / / / – Elite
*CATHERSTON DAZZLER / / /*/ / /
*CATHERSTON LIBERATOR /*/ /*/ / /
CHANT DE PAIX /*/*/*/*/ /
CIMARRON /*/*/ / / / – Elite
*CING CAMP GILLETTE Z /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
COLOURED GOLD BAR (Deceased)
*CORRCULLEN – Elite & Supreme
COTTONWOOD FLAME – Nominated (Deceased)
CZAR'S LEGEND – Elite
*DAMBRETS – Elite (Deceased)
*DANCING LITE /*/*/ / / /
DAPPER DAN /*/ / / / / Elite (deceased)
DAS NUREYEV TANZ – Elite & Supreme
DELUX BLACK TUX
DEPUTED DUKE /*/ / / / / – Nominated
DERVATIW GWYDDION+/ /*/ / / / / – Nominated
DEUTSCHMARK – Elite
*DIAMOND DVE 330 – Elite
DOMINICK /*/*/ / / / – Elite
DONARWEISS GGF /*/*/ / / / – Elite
*DONNERLUCK /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
*DONNERMEYER /*/ / /*/ / – Elite (10/08)
*DRAGONS VALOUR DARTAGNON /*/ / / / /
*DREITAKT /*/ / /*/ / – Elite
*DUTCH GOLD / / /*/ / /
EPIC LEAP – Nominated
*ESBJERG GS – Elite
*E-STHETICS WIDOR / /*/*/ / / – Elite
*EUROPE /*/*/ / / / – Elite
EVANS PROVIDENCE OF THE NIGHT /*/ / / / / – Pony
EVEREST
FABERGE JUWEL MACHEN /*/ / / / / – Elite
FEUERTANZER /*/ / / / / – Elite
FLIGHT TIME GOLD
FOR UTAH TOO /*/ / / / /
FOREST DANCER /*/*/*/ / /
FORSYTHE'S FATE – Nominated
FORTUNE HUNTER /*/*/ /*/ / – Elite & Supreme (10/08)
FRIAR TUCK
*FUERST GOTTHARD /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
FUERST GRAYHEART R /*/ / / / / – Elite
FUNQUEST ERICK – Supreme
G WALKABOUT /*/*/ / / / – Elite (10/08)
GAUGIN DU CHEVAL 9054 /*/*/ / / / – Elite
*GERONIMO /*/ / / / / – Elite
*GLUCKSPIEL – Elite
GO GREY BEAU /*/ / / / / – Nominated
GOLD COAST /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
GRANDEZINE /*/ / / / /– Elite
GUARDIAN /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
H.Q. OUT RIGGER /*/*/ / / / – Elite
HADRIAN – Elite & Supreme (10/08)
HALL OF FAME – Elite
*HAPPY HOUR /*/*/ / / / – Elite
HAVLIN+/ – Nominated
HE'S TRUE BLUE /*/*/ / / / – Pony & Supreme (10/08)
HERU – Nominated
HIDEAWAY'S ERIN GO BRAGH
HIGH KICK
HIGH RESOLUTION / /*/*/ / /
*HOHOTT /*/ / / / /
IMPRESSIONIST – Elite & Supreme
INDEPEN-DANCE /*/*/ / / /
INDIAN ART /*/*/ / / /
INF THE CATALYST /*/*/ / / / – Pony & Nominated
*IRONMAN / /*/ / / / – Elite
*ISOS /*/*/ / / / – Elite
J.B.'S RAZZY TORNADO
JUMPIN JAK FLASH /*/ / / / / – Nominated
KAESON'S SIR WINSTON – Supreme (Retired)
KALLIGRAPHY /*/*/ / / /
*KING (Gelded)
*KIROW H /*/*/ / / /– Elite & Supreme
*KOSAKE – Elite
KRESHENDO – Elite
KRUSADER – Elite
LAITIN /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
*LANCASTER /*/*/ /*/ / Elite & Supreme
*LANCITANO /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
LANDAVI – Elite
*LANDKONIG – Elite
LANDONN I /*/ / / / / – Elite
LAUTREC /*/ / / / / – Elite
*LAVITA – Elite
LE CAVALIER – Elite
*LE ROI /*/ / / / / – Elite
LEGADO DE FUEGO – Elite
LEGION VF – Nominated
LEISURELY WATCH – Nominated
LG TEMPRANO – Nominated
*LIBERO STAR /*/*/ / / / - Elite
LIL'AB
*LIO CALYON – Elite
*LJIBBES VALOUR /*/*/ / / /
*MAGIC KIROW H /*/*/ / / /
MANAHAWK /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
MARQUEE – Elite & Supreme - Deceased (10/08)
*MASSTAB – Nominated
MATISSE /*/*/ /*/ / – Elite
MAXIMILIAN'S LEGACY /*/ / / / / – Elite
MEIN KLEIN KLAASE (LINCOLN) /*/ / / / /
MOSES – Supreme (Deceased)
MYSTIC SUNDANCE /*/*/ / / / (Retired)
MYSTIC TYME /*/*/ / / / – Elite (Deceased)
NAMUR – Elite & Supreme
NAVARRE /*/*/ / / /
NEVADA /*/*/ /*/ / – Elite (10/08)
NEVER BEND BETTER / /*/ / / / – Nominated
NICHOLAS / /*/ / / / – Elite (Deceased)
NIMBUS /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
NOB HILL / / / /*/ /
OBERON /*/ / / / /
*ODIN – Elite
*OLEANDER /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
*OMAN – Nominated (Deceased)
OTB AURYAN /*/ / / / / – Nominated
OUR SIR LANCELOT /*/*/ / / /
P.S. MARQUIS DE SADE – Elite
*PABLITO – Elite
*PATRICK /*/*/ / / / – Elite (10/08)
PIABORALLIS – Elite & Supreme
PIK PANACHE
PIKOR (Deceased)
*POWER PLAY /*/*/ / / / - Pony & Supreme
*PRADO /*/ / / / / – Elite (10/08)
PREFERRED STATUS /*/ / / / / – Nominated (Decreased)
*PRESLEY (PATRICK) /*/*/ / / / – Elite
PRF IMPERIAL BLACK REX/*/*/*/*/ / – Supreme
*PRIMMORE'S PIONEER / / /*/ / /
PRIVAT DANCER /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
*PUERTO D'AZUR – Elite
*PYATT CHARLY – Elite (Deceased)
RACHMANINOV /*/*/ / / / – Elite (10/08)
*RAFFINO STAR /*/ / / / / - Elite
RAVEL /*/*/*/ / / – Elite (10/08)
*RAZENI STAR (Deceased)
REALITY / /*/ / / / – Elite
RED CLAY TRIBUTARY /*/ / / / /
REIGN /*/ / / / /
RESERO – Elite
RHOQUEST /*/ / / / / – Elite (Deceased)
RIDLEY /*/ / / / / – Elite (10/08)
ROCKETMAN
*ROCKMAN – Elite (10/08)
ROGALA DEBONAIR+ /*/ / / / / – Nominated (10/08)
*ROMANTIC STAR /*/*/ /* / / - Elite & Supreme
*RUBAIYAT – Elite (10/08)
S. H. DECOUPAGE
SALTO /*/ / / / / – Elite(10/08)
*SANTANA /*/*/ /*/ / – Elite & Supreme
SAVANT – Elite
SAX GOLD DUST /*/ / / / /
SECRETLY REGAL
*SILBERPFIEL – Elite
SKANDANCER /*/ / / / / – Nominated
SODALIS
SPANISH PARADE / / /*/ / / - Elite
SPARLOCK /*/*/*/ / / – Supreme
SPECTRUM – Elite
SPRINGSTEEN ROCK AYERS (Retired)
SPRUCE MTN VIKING
*STANHOPES DIDDICOY / / /*/ / /
STATESMAN SILHOUETTE
*SUPER STAR /*/ / / / / – Elite
SYMBOL /*/*/*/*/*/ – Elite (Retired)
SYNCHRONICITY /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme (10/08)
TA'EZ /*/*/*/ / / – Nominated (Retired)
TEMERARIO VII / /*/ / / /
TF PERONS BRILLANCE – Supreme
THE SPOTLIGHT – Supreme
THUNDERING ZEUS /*/ / / / / (Retired)
TINARIWEN /*/ / / / /
*TROIKA'S MACHIAVELLI H /*/*/ / / /
TUDORS DIAMOND JIM
TUNE OF KADRON-KASEYN /*/ / / / / – Nominated (10/08)
*U. AVENIR – Elite
*URI
*VAL H /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
*VIRTUOSO – Elite
*WALIANO /*/*/ / / / - Elite & Supreme
WALKABOUT /*/*/ / / / – Supreme (10/08)
WATCH ME – Elite
*WAY OUT WEST /*/*/ / / /
*WB SHAQUILLE / /*/ / / /
*WELT HIT STAR /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
WELT MARKE – Elite
*WERBELLIN /*/*/*/*/ / – Elite
*WINNETOU /*/*/ /*/ / – Elite & Supreme
WOLKENZAUBER / /*/ /*/ /
*WOTAN VON WOLKENSTEIN II /*/ / / / / – Elite
YOUNG FLEET / /*/*/ /*/ (Deceased)
*ZEUS – Elite
*ZORRO /*/*/*/ / / – (10/08)

Call up an AWS judge and see what she says about draft crosses. It is NOT A POSITIVE convo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The judge actually answered some questions about this at the last inspection I went to. She went on and on about how the drafts have a shorter front end, made for pulling, the TB is bred for running... you have "exceptions", but most are not an IDEAL horse for "sport" (Olympic events) They will inspect them, but the MAJORITY are not even accepted into the registry---they have had so many unhappy people, because their horses are not approved.


It is like you assume that everyone that belongs in that reg is some back yard breeder. I have been breeding European Wb's for 18 years...... when AWS started, I started to get my horses reg with them in ADDITION to the Euro papers.

I have also seen the horses improve every year! That is HUGE, their inspections are held in an open format, the viewers can ask any questions they want, and many times the judge will point out flaws or a quality for people to look at over and over, to educate their "eye". It has helped me like crazy. Anyway, I have become friends over the years with the judges and people who "own" the registry, they are good people and as many of us are, learning on a daily basis.

[Stacie]

I don't like the direction the european WB registries are taking, particularly the dressage lines. IMHO certain of the younger dressage stallions are freaks, to use the term that others have used. (Why don't they just breed ASB's, that's the direction they are taking)
I'm so glad that someone has the guts to say this. :(
I saw a young dressage stallion in a video and tried to imagine him doing something like jumpers or XC or even *trail riding* and he seemed woefully inadequate as a *horse*.

[FriesianX]

I don't know why people feel such a need to bash AWS. RPSI and the other registries offer a COP, AWS offers a lower book. What is the difference? Both allow non-Euro WB lines. AWS has some lovely horses in it, and to be approved for breeding, a horse must have a very high inspection score OR show with 62% or higher at 3rd level.

I don't know about other places in the country, but here in California, 60% at 3rd level in a recognized show is not an easy thing to do. IN fact, there has been plenty of discussion on this board and others about the performance criteria, because people are worried they can't get the scores needed to advance, unless they are on a fancy Warmblood. Well, it seems AWS was ahead of the game on this one - they picked 3rd level as the "line in the sand" for breeding approval.

Sure, the registry is not perfect - but it is a relatively new registry, and it is trying to provide a place for US bred horses. Didn't we achieve independence from Europe hundreds of years ago? Don't we deserve our own registries? I'd love to see more support for our own horses and our own registries.

[Adamantane]

Didn't we achieve independence from Europe hundreds of years ago?

Somebody forgot to tell Mark Phillips and the folks who picked him. ;)

Seriously I appreciate all the information everybody's posted.

[~Freedom~]

At the last inspection, there was a Gatsby (sire) crossed to a mare who was Hannovarian/shire cross. Wasn't my cup of tea, but it also didn't score super well. I think it was scored with a 68. Just because a horse was "approved" with AWS doesn't mean it gets a terrific score. The last inspection, only 3 horses scored over 70, the others were in the mid 60's.

I believe that many here are getting confused between approved for breeding and registered.

As was stated above that mare got 68 % but believe it or not she was NOT approved, she got registered. The three that got over 70% may not have been "approved" either, but for sure were registered. So when you that have been to an inspection, just because the horse got a decent score of say 71% and you didn't like it ...well the inspectors also didn't like it enough for BREEDING purposes either.

All the stallions on the list provided had to get 75% or higher at an inspection.

75% or higher is a very tough score to achieve and just because a horse got a ribbon it may not have been approved for BREEDING.

So please do not get the two confused.

75% and avove --approved for breeding
74.9% and below--REGISTERED NOT approved for breeding.

[tri]

It is the kinds of posts that people like Sandra that really hold back wb breeding in America. Her posts are complete poppycock.

#1. The AWS actively DISCOURAGES using draft blood and has for years. The amount of horses in the AWS that actually do have some draft blood is extremely small. Contrast this with the BWP - most would admit that the BWP is a reputable european registry - up until last year, they accepted horses with up to 1/4 draft blood....as in percheron, clyd, etc.

#2. The idea of the AWS horses being mutts while euro registered wbs are not leads us to the fully approved BWP stallion whose dam has......drum roll please....QUARTER HORSE BLOOD. Yep, fully approved euro registered BWP stallion standing at stud here in the U.S. has a dam who is a quarterhorse and all those foals can be presented to a variety of other euro registries for full approval as well. I think it is just beginning with the euro registries - the qh blood - that is.

#3. How about Bretina? You know, the famous dressage mare? Hmm, in looking at her pedigree that is, by the way, fully approved by, gasp! a euro registry..... well, land sakes alive! It shows "Unknown" in some spots!!!!

Geez, then there is the idea that Americans need to build a sporthorse industry here in the U.S. with programs, events, approval processes, etc that are geared to the American markets, to promote American breeders and pool our resources (money) here in the U.S. to continue to build our own industry.

Oh, and lets not forget, that when Americans register their horses with a foreign controlled registry, that horse becomes a product of German breeding, or Dutch breeding, or Belgian breeding....or anything but American which just furthers the marketing of euro is better and all buyers should look there instead of shopping in the U.S.

And, then there is the fact that the horses, once registered with a euro registry, will count points for the european studbook with the WBFSH and NOT the American studbook which, again, just furthers buyers thought process of "european is better so lets go shop there instead of here".

[Horsecrazy27]

Well put Tri. :)

[carolprudm]

In one of the recent magazines I recieved, think it was DT, there is a huge ad for the world championships to be held in KY. In the ad there is a picture of a dressage horse doing what I suppose is an extended trot. His forearm is almost horizontal but it is not matched by the hind leg which has limited reach and little or no lengthening through the body. I'm sure the horse is registered with one of the German registries.

Umm, that ain't right, or at least it wasn't when I grew up. It's not about how far a horse can flip its toes.

It might have been in the same magazine, but there is a spread advertizing European stallions. At least two of them looked to be well on their way to looking like GSD's or giraffes, extreme uphill build, massive front ends with little in back.

That is simply NOT what I want to breed.

Call me old, crabby and sleep deprived

[not again]

The cannon bone of the hind leg should be parallel to the forearm in extended trot. The poll is supposed to be the highest point on the neck. The nose is supposed to be one inch in front of the vertical. And the hoof of the hind foot should not go past vertical when pushing off the ground. ;)
Try to find those traits in any magazine photo.:no:
American registries are trying to produce correct going horses just like the others. And all are dealing with hybrids, not purebreds.

[DownYonder]

I'm not sure which horse is in the WEG ad that was cited, but Anky shows a stallion that very frequently has a horizontal forearm in extended trot and a hind leg comes BARELY under the horse's hindquarters. I saw an interesting photo of this horse at a symposium conducted by the head of the German FN. He showed only the front end of the horse - and it looked really impressive. Then he asked, "What do you think the hind end of this horse is doing?"

My thought was, "Well, he should be practically touching the girth with his hindfoot, based on what the front leg is doing." Then they showed the rest of the photo. The hind foot was directly under the horse's haunch - he almost looked as though he was piaffing behind. Interestingly, the horse had gotten a NINE for extended trot at the competition where the photo was taken. So unfortunately, this type of movement is also being rewarded by the judges. :no:

[Atlantis]

Another point worth mentioning - I can see how there may be confusion between what is successful at inspection, and what would be considered a responsible breeding plan. For example, someone may cross a Morgan/Appy/Quarter Horse and get a really quality horse. (Don't laugh, it could happen, stay with me here for the sake of example.) Now, a knowledgeable breeder would know this horse was almost definitely a fluke, and nobody would base a Warmblood breeding plan on Morgan/Appy/QH crosses. But because this particular fluke turned out nice, the AWS almost has no choice but to score it well. So then the problem arises (imho) when Joe Public (who knows nothing about breeding or warmbloods) sees/hears of a mixbred mutt like this doing well at an American Warmblood inspection, and thinks A) Morgan/Appy/QH is a "Warmblood" and B) hey, I can breed THOSE! It also opens the door for people with an ax to grind against the AWS to say "but LOOK how well they scored a MUTT! Everybody knows a Morgan/Appy/QH is NOT a WARMBLOOD! The AWS must not know what they are DOING!"

However, if a quality Heinz57 fluke is presented what choice does the AWS have? They've got to score it on it's own merits. Which means sometimes questionable crosses will do well at inspections. Which inevitably leads to people saying "but I saw a Standardbred/Morgan cross and it was an American Warmblood, therefore all American Warmbloods suck and must be Standardbred/Morgan crosses" and/or people deciding to go home and start breeding their own irresponsible crosses because now they think the AWS will accept "anything".

So there, I've identified a problem as I see it, but I'm lost as to a solution.

It's also not fair to bash the AWS on the basis of a recorded horse, vs approved horses. Every legitimate registry has different levels of registration and studbooks, you can hardly judge any of them because of the recorded or COP horses! Looking into the higher books shows you the real direction the registry is taking. Then you'll see the AWS is not as all inclusive as some want you to believe.

[~Freedom~]

Well put Atlantis.

By the same token and taking your Morgan/Appy/QH cross idea to the other side. In a standard European WB registry we have all accepted someone may present a horse that has one of those giraffe type head sets and gets a high score so now everyone rushes to breed the same type. And remember the older types when the haunches were so flat. well NOW no one wants that conformation although many at the time rushed to breed that in that trait.

I don't know what the solution is as people tend to be a "follow the leader". Sometime s it works and sometimes it doesn't.

[Horsecrazy27]

I like that too Atlantis

At each inspection, the judge is not made aware of the pedigree of the horse till after she inspects it. The registry itself knows--of course for the paper work, but to keep things "fair" the judge ask about parantage after she judges it.

I find this interesting, because I wonder how often the Euro reg. look at a horses pedigree and then scores accordingly---like the "hot" stallion for the time. I'm not saying this is the case---but, heck, you never know. I know that I have heard of "political" rumors. Maybe this is why AWS has come up with that "rule".

[tri]

Take a look at another thread regarding Cooldanz - Oldenburg exported to England....with pinto blood.

[ahf]

#3. How about Bretina? You know, the famous dressage mare? Hmm, in looking at her pedigree that is, by the way, fully approved by, gasp! a euro registry..... well, land sakes alive! It shows "Unknown" in some spots!!!!


Tri, I'm not picking on you...but I believe Brentina's pedigree is known. The problem in those pedigree programs is that do not allow for an un-NAMED mare. If you look at the pink papers from some older Hanoverians, you'll see a mare "S" with a NUMBER. S for stute of course, then her number.

For instance, the former Celle stallion Bumerang (Ballyboy xx/WunschI) lists the 3rd dam as S 312314245, and her parents are listed: Fiat I x Stute v. Kordial. Meaning her dam was also un-named, but by Kordial.

ETA..this is yet another reason why these online pedigree databases are nice for a general idea, but they are by no means stone tablets.

I'm betting they were more interested in getting through WWII than naming their mares.

Found another, even better example....go to All Breeds for Chasseur:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/chasseur3

You'll see an entry on the third dam as "hann stute". With parentage. In the celle book, she is S 312663363...with parentage known...the same as appears on allbreeds.

See what I mean?

[siegi b.]

I can't believe you just did that, Kate!!! :-) With one fell swoop you managed to take all the hot air out of tri's standard argument that warmbloods are mutts with unknown parentage. :-) Ouy vey!!! It'll be interesting to see how tri maneuvers around that one... :-)

[tri]

ahf, I am not so sure about that. There was quite the LONG thread on it a while back where this was discussed and I don't think it was ever resolved - there were holes in the pedigree and it would be interesting to see if anyone can fill them in.

However, the mare was not the only example that was brought up during that thread - there were quite a few others that had 'unknown' in the pedigree. I've brought up Big Ben - the famous show jumper - who is BWP. His dam is a 15.1 / 15.2 hand mare with some funky stuff back in there as well.

Warmbloods are mutts...or crossbreds...or whatever you want to call them. I'm surprised anyone here would be ignorant enough not to know that.

The point of argument is that many of the registries make allowances and/or register horses of unknown bloodlines, non-standard bloodlines or whatever. It just seems if it doesn't have the blessing of a european, it becomes somehow wrong. This perception puts Americans at a terrible disadvantage and the fact that it is perpetuated by other Americans is distinctly sad.

[carolprudm]

Lots of unknowns here
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sea+crest3
but look at his get!

[Donella]

You know what this all boils down to? Standards and breeding philosophy. I have come to the conclusion that there are two groups of breeders.
Breeder one: Doesn't understand the concept of throwback in genetics. If an animal does not fit the general phenotype of the breed..ie an uphill QH, they see no problem with using it in the wb breeding plan because they say "well, the individual is nice". They beleive that the only reason someone wouldn't use a horse like this is because they are elitist and "breed snobs". They believe that you can make apple pie from oranges so to say. To me, this is the breeding philosophy of the AWS AND any registry that uses non sport horses in the breeding program ( This includes RPSI if I am correct).

Then there are the breeders who realize that you cannot make apple pie from oranges. They realize that using a non sport horse to make a sporGt horse is a flawed concept because it isn't realistic. If this means that they have to give their money to foreign registries, so be it. Genotype is just as important as phenotype to these breeders, because they understand how genetics works, the concept of throwbacks ect. For this reason, the so called devil registries do not allow non wb or sport horse into their program. It actually has not thing to do with being "breed snobs" and everything to do with understanding how genetics works.

Anyways, I think it just boils down to people having different standards OR that some people are clued out when it comes to the genetic aspects of breeding.

And you know, the minit an American or Canadian registry is born that actually has respectable standards, I will be the first to join. Until then, I will continue to happily send my money to Germany.

[Sandra6500]

You know what this all boils down to? Standards and breeding philosophy. I have come to the conclusion that there are two groups of breeders.
Breeder one: Doesn't understand the concept of throwback in genetics. If an animal does not fit the general phenotype of the breed..ie an uphill QH, they see no problem with using it in the wb breeding plan because they say "well, the individual is nice". They beleive that the only reason someone wouldn't use a horse like this is because they are elitist and "breed snobs". They believe that you can make apple pie from oranges so to say. To me, this is the breeding philosophy of the AWS AND any registry that uses non sport horses in the breeding program ( This includes RPSI if I am correct).

Then there are the breeders who realize that you cannot make apple pie from oranges. They realize that using a non sport horse to make a sporGt horse is a flawed concept because it isn't realistic. If this means that they have to give their money to foreign registries, so be it. Genotype is just as important as phenotype to these breeders, because they understand how genetics works, the concept of throwbacks ect. For this reason, the so called devil registries do not allow non wb or sport horse into their program. It actually has not thing to do with being "breed snobs" and everything to do with understanding how genetics works.

Anyways, I think it just boils down to people having different standards OR that some people are clued out when it comes to the genetic aspects of breeding.

And you know, the minit an American or Canadian registry is born that actually has respectable standards, I will be the first to join. Until then, I will continue to happily send my money to Germany.

you worded that much much better than I ever did. I would love to see the responses from some of the folks on the board to this.

[carolprudm]

Germany may have standards, I just don't like them. The horses who seem to be declared to be the best just don't float my boat.

Sorry, I want a horse who can go cross country and AWS or Irish seem to be the way to go for me.

Life's better outside the ring

[Fairview Horse Center]

I dunno, some people tried to make apple pie from THESE oranges...

Seems to me that MANY horses of other, non-warmblood breeds, Saddlebred, Standardbred, Morgan, and yes, even many QHs are a LOT more similar in type to more modern Warmbloods than these guys.

and then there are the TBs, that are ALL included MMB, and some even without inspection, INCLUDING those down hill, low set neck ones. (Isn't that what the breed is looking for in sprinters?) How are they adding to the predictable genotype?

I have been preaching that I can predict what my boy will throw because he IS from such similar genotype horses, and he is an AWS approved stallion.

Here are some VERY popular "oranges"

[tri]

Sandra and Donella, you guys have yet again conveniently ignored the facts. You say you want a warmblood registry that has "standards" and because the AWS has accepted some outside blood, they apparently don't. You say that these breeders are ignorant because they don't understand or care about genotype and throw back genetics.

Well, then what about Cooldanz who is a fully approved Oldenburg stallion who has Paint blood in the dam line? Where do the standards come in? Where is your argument about throwback genetics? Where is the "respectability" in that "respectable" warmblood registry that deviates from the AWS?

And, then there is Victory Gallop who is a fully approved Belgian Warmblood, inspected and approved with the BWP completely approved for breeding both here and in Belgium, approved, approved, approved, approved, should I say it again, approved and he has a dam with quarterhorse blood. All of his foals will be in the highest books of the BWP and because he has papers with the BWP, those foals could be approved with other "respectable" euro registries.

So where is your argument? Where are your standards? Where is the deviation?

Then there is the RPSI who also will register ANYTHING ON FOUR LEGS. They just will go into the lower books.....my oh my, just like in the AWS that also put those types of horses in the lower books.

So where is your argument? Where are your standards? Where is the deviation?

Fairview, I agree. Some of the so-called "most respected" euro registries - one in particular - doesn't even bother to inspect and approved TB mares and just registers ALL of the foals from these mares - not the standards I want and the AWS certainly doesn't do that!

[siegi b.]

You may be able to make a pie with oranges but then you can't call it apple pie... :-)

I just love it when tri makes these important statements "Well, then what about Cooldanz who is a fully approved Oldenburg stallion who has Paint blood in the dam line? Where do the standards come in? Where is your argument about throwback genetics? Where is the "respectability" in that "respectable" warmblood registry that deviates from the AWS?" ...... while everybody on this board that has read that thread KNOWS that Cooldanz is NOT a "fully approved Oldenburg stallion"! :-) :-)

And ahf's statement that the "unknown" in the Hanoverian pedigrees exists because those mares simply didn't have a name but had their registration number? It just got shrugged off by our dear tri as something that probably wasn't quite right anyway.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, tri dear, you are the AWS's worst enemy. You are giving those American registries such bad press with your uncontrolled outbursts, false statements and circular arguments that the vast majority of breeders would rather be poked in the eye with a stick than be associated with those registries.

So carry on and try to change the CD every now and then.... :-)

[~Freedom~]

Hmmmmmm

Lots of arguments here.

Personally I see little difference between the say CSHA and the AWS. Both register "off breeds", both have various "unknowns" within their registry. Other than AWS is aimed more toward performance and the recognition of mares, stallions AND geldings and the CSHA is aimed more toward breeding and mares and stallions and ignore the geldings they are in many ways alike, however the CSHA seems to be a more acceptable registry.

There are quite a few stallions from CSHA breeding with "gaps" in their background that are considered stallions of choice or have produced world beaters.

Oh one difference also is that the CSHA has a much lower percent pass mark to get approved than the AWS.

Interesting.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Oh one difference also is that the CSHA has a much lower percent pass mark to get approved than the AWS.

Interesting.

From what I have seen at inspections, the AWS approval rate is about 10% of mature horses presented.

[~Freedom~]

From what I have seen at inspections, the AWS approval rate is about 10% of mature horses presented.

I was actually referring to the actual percentage needed to pass. AWS is 75% and CSHA was 60% but they raised it recently to 65 % now???

[ahf]

I lose enough money breeding without rolling the dice and including horses with unknown parentage, or horses of different types/breeds. Like CarolP, I breed the type of horse I *LIKE* and would want to ride. And so far, this is working for me. I really, really like the horses I’ve bred. I love their temperaments, conformation and I’m really excited now that the oldest are undersaddle. Because the proof in a program is what happens when they are riding horses.

The one single time I took a flyer and bred a wonderful, sport-bred TB mare the result was an unmitigated disaster. After that “learning opportunity”, I’m perfectly content to let others take chances. But it ain’t gonna be me anymore. The risk of genetic scatter is more fiscal risk than I’m willing to shoulder. Fairview can make predictions on crosses because she’s very familiar with the ancestors. I strive for the same effect. It doesn’t make me WRONG, it makes me cautious.

Are nice horses produced by unorthodox/unknown crosses? Of course! You can hit the jackpot, or you can loose your shirt. I like consistency in my program. And I feel I’m getting a pretty consistent “product”.

This has nothing to do with the AWS. It has to do with my breeding philosophy. To which I THOUGHT I was entitled.

[Fairview Horse Center]

It has to do with my breeding philosophy. To which I THOUGHT I was entitled.

ABSOLUTELY! Not directed at you, but I just get tired of the AWS bashing every time as soon as someone posts a question. I don't even register most of my horses AWS, but will defend anyone's right to use what ever means available to them to document their horse's pedigree, and learn about evaluating breeding animals. The AWS & AWR do serve a purpose for many breeders, and they should not be made to feel bad about their choices.

[sid]

I didn't read beyond the first few posts. I know little if anything about the AWS or AWR. It took me so long to figure out the KWPN and the GOV and 100DT problems when I first got into owning stallions to get through licensing and approval requirements (much less getting get registered and/or approved), I just got plain tired..(wink!). I'm self employed have to work for a living and the time for figuring this out became daunting and to time intensive. I digress...

I'm still trying to figure out how one of my mare owner's Argosy offspring took top place at an AWS inspection as a weanling some years ago and was registered -- when the mare had undocumented parentage and I never took my stallion to them for any kind of approval.

Granted, this youngster went to get stellar awards in hunter breeding classes. But I still can't figure out how, without my taking my stallion for AWS approval (no interest on my part) and a with non-verifiable pedigree for the mare (she's an unraced TB with a great hunter performance record but without papers), this offspring could be registered.

I'm not "up" on this at all. I was just surprised when the owner called me and told me about how well her youngster did at the "inspection". Huh?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Sid, the AWS will inspect any horse based on the horse itself, parents do not need to be approved. The ISR/OLD will also inspect horses without pedigree, not sure about the others - RHPSI? Without DNA proven European Warmblood / TB pedigree however, it is not eligible for the Elite book. A nice horse can still score well, and even be inspection champion as yours was.

[Horsecrazy27]

You know what this all boils down to? Standards and breeding philosophy. I have come to the conclusion that there are two groups of breeders.
Breeder one: Doesn't understand the concept of throwback in genetics. If an animal does not fit the general phenotype of the breed..ie an uphill QH, they see no problem with using it in the wb breeding plan because they say "well, the individual is nice". They beleive that the only reason someone wouldn't use a horse like this is because they are elitist and "breed snobs". They believe that you can make apple pie from oranges so to say. To me, this is the breeding philosophy of the AWS AND any registry that uses non sport horses in the breeding program ( This includes RPSI if I am correct).

Then there are the breeders who realize that you cannot make apple pie from oranges. They realize that using a non sport horse to make a sporGt horse is a flawed concept because it isn't realistic. If this means that they have to give their money to foreign registries, so be it. Genotype is just as important as phenotype to these breeders, because they understand how genetics works, the concept of throwbacks ect. For this reason, the so called devil registries do not allow non wb or sport horse into their program. It actually has not thing to do with being "breed snobs" and everything to do with understanding how genetics works.

Anyways, I think it just boils down to people having different standards OR that some people are clued out when it comes to the genetic aspects of breeding.

And you know, the minit an American or Canadian registry is born that actually has respectable standards, I will be the first to join. Until then, I will continue to happily send my money to Germany.

3rd type.

An American breeder who searches high and low for quality horses of warmblood sport horse blood---WINNING blood (which happens to be of euro blood lines--or crosses of those with approved TB's in the Euro regs). Breed these horses, brand/reg them with an American brand. Breed the best to the best----brand them with the soil they are born in. There is NO rule that says you can't use the Euro stallions--frozen semen, on your Euro reg mare and reg it with a USA brand???????????

[YankeeLawyer]

I'm so glad that someone has the guts to say this. :(
I saw a young dressage stallion in a video and tried to imagine him doing something like jumpers or XC or even *trail riding* and he seemed woefully inadequate as a *horse*.

Not all of them are like this. I have a mare in foal to Stedinger. He has pretty flashy gaits and a jump to match. In addition, many upper level dressage horses do have strong jumper lines. The disciplines are not mutually exclusive, by any means.

[YankeeLawyer]

Germany may have standards, I just don't like them. The horses who seem to be declared to be the best just don't float my boat.

Sorry, I want a horse who can go cross country and AWS or Irish seem to be the way to go for me.

Life's better outside the ring

If by cross country you mean eventing, it seems it would be preferable to have a horse that could pull a fairly outstanding dressage score as well (which you may very well be able to find with the AWS or Irish; I have no idea, but I would pause before rejecting ALL German lineage horses as hopeless for your needs).

I have no idea why this debate seems to continually resurface. I think if people are happy with the AWS, that is great. I *do* think the parentage of all foals should at least be documented, to the extent possible, and if some registry out there is willing to give a certificate of pedigree or something to a horse whose lineage can only be traced one generation, then that serves an important purpose. The AWS is not my registry of choice, but my preferred registry is probably not everyone else's cup of tea either. And that is OKAY.

[YankeeLawyer]

The one single time I took a flyer and bred a wonderful, sport-bred TB mare the result was an unmitigated disaster. After that “learning opportunity”, I’m perfectly content to let others take chances. But it ain’t gonna be me anymore. The risk of genetic scatter is more fiscal risk than I’m willing to shoulder. Fairview can make predictions on crosses because she’s very familiar with the ancestors. I strive for the same effect. It doesn’t make me WRONG, it makes me cautious.

Are nice horses produced by unorthodox/unknown crosses? Of course! You can hit the jackpot, or you can loose your shirt. I like consistency in my program. And I feel I’m getting a pretty consistent “product”.


I don't disagree with your basic premise (I believe you are familiar with my mares) but I am confused about the comment re the TB. If she was wonderful and sport-bred (and I believe you), why was that such a risk? I am thinking about improvement TBs like Prince Thatch and Lauries Crusader. Surely the mere fact she was a TB couldn't have been the problem, and registered TBs, at least, have documented parentage a mile long, so presumably you would have some idea of the horses that came before her. I am just not getting why she was a higher risk than breeding a European warmblood mare who had yet to produce a foal.

[sid]

Darlyn, I see (I think). It's about registration of "type", regardless of parentage -- not about breeding for that "type". Is that right?

The RPSI does inspect also, but it is a breeding registry and thus, horses with unknown or missing pedigree may not be bred.

[carolprudm]

If by cross country you mean eventing, it seems it would be preferable to have a horse that could pull a fairly outstanding dressage score as well (which you may very well be able to find with the AWS or Irish; I have no idea, but I would pause before rejecting ALL German lineage horses as hopeless for your needs).


By cross contry I mean anything from trail to fox hunting to eventing. If you look at the recent Rolex entries, and the winner, there were a LOT of horses with Irish Draught.

The Irish Draught breeders have taken a different track than the German breeders. They are trying to retain traditional type as breeding stock and OUTCROSSING those horses to TB's for sport horses.

I will admit to being old, crabby and sleep deprived (waiting for my 3/4 Connemara foal) but I prefer the dressage ridden at the highest levels of eventing rather than than the dressage ridden in straight dressage classes, much less flash and flying front feet and more engagement of the hind.

But that's a different thread

[tri]

Horsecrazy, that is very well said.

I don't know why folks like AHF and others think that if a horse - any horse - is in a registry, they are forced to use it for breeding. Where does that come from? The idea that, oh there is a hunter style stallion with some qh blood in my registry so now my whole breeding program has to have some quarterhorse?? Do you also feel compelled to breed to every dressage style, jumper style, eventer style stallion in your current chosen registry? I don't think you do, so why do you think that if a horse you don't like is in the AWS and you breed AWS, you would have to use them?? It doesn't make sense. There are plenty of other stallions - probably even the same ones you are currently using - that are also in the AWS and your breeding program can continue on as you wish.

There are stallions in the KWPN, Old, RPSI, BWP, ATA, etc that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. I have mares that are or have been approved with most of these registries, but I don't think my breeding program suffers because of those stallions. Why then would your breeding program have to change because there was a stallion you weren't interested in that was also in the registry?

Sid, I also know that some of the other euro registries will register horses without properly documented pedigrees. I used to own one quite some years ago. She was unregistered sport thoroughbred with 1/8 percheron blood with no papers. I bought her as a 3-day prospect but sold her to a good friend of mine who had her inspected with the BWP where she was approved, branded and registered. She had two or three foals (can't remember exactly) who were subsequently presented, branded and approved with the BWP as well - one went to Dressage at Devon and competed on the line and in the BWP breeding class.

[Atlantis]

I believe only a small percentage of horses presented to the AWS for inspection are out of "AWS Approved for Breeding" and "Elite Book" mares and stallions. The AWS has breeding approval and different books for a reason - the guidance for breeders is there - but what can they do when so few people adhere to it? The highest level of registration in the AWS is to be both in the Elite Book and Approved for Breeding. The standards to achieve this are vastly different from merely being "Registered", or the lowest tier, merely being "Recorded".

A horse which is in the Elite Book and Approved for Breeding is much more in line with the European registries. It requires proven performance, inspection, and a minimum 4 generation pedigree of "sport horses" (so I'm assuming this rules out any QHs, Morgans, or whichever odd breeds have been used as examples on this thread.) Now if only more people were breeding using stock from the Elite Book and/or Approved for Breeding..!

I agree there are breeders who don't understand throwbacks or genotypes, etc. There is a reason Warmbloods dominate top sport, and there is a reason Warmbloods are bred from Warmblood and Thoroughbred stock. To take a sporty QH, a sporty Morgan, a sporty Paint horse, and use it for breeding is such a risk because while these horses may be sporty in the sense of their phenotype, they are not sport horses in the sense of their genotype.

Because the AWS inspects the horse on the basis of what is presented to them, horses which are phenotypically sport horses, but genotypically are not, may still do well.

But is this an AWS problem? Does this encourage breeders to breed haphazardly based on a phenotype, and sometimes not even that? (I swear there are breeders whose breeding plan seems to rely totally on dumb luck! Usually unsuccessfully, I might add.) Or does some responsibility lie with the breeders, to become better educated, or to take advantage of the Elite Books and Breeding Approval when selecting breeding stock?

I think the AWS is a great idea in theory, and there are some great, knowledgeable people involved with it. The problem is as much with the people who take advantage of the AWS as a dumping ground for their Heinz 57's, or who breed Heinz 57's on purpose because they think they can slap the "Warmblood" label on them, and perhaps you could argue the AWS enables this.

P.S. I'm not following the "all warmbloods are mutts" argument. Yes, there is a lot of crossing of different warmbloods, and some Thoroughbred, and less often some Arabian, but I don't view this as a "mutt". A mutt, to me, in the sense of this discussion, would be a QH/Morgan/grade/Appy/something which someone is trying to slap a warmblood or sport horse label on. (Right?)

[FriesianX]

I
There is a reason Warmbloods dominate top sport, and there is a reason Warmbloods are bred from Warmblood and Thoroughbred stock. To take a sporty QH, a sporty Morgan, a sporty Paint horse, and use it for breeding is such a risk because while these horses may be sporty in the sense of their phenotype, they are not sport horses in the sense of their genotype.

Because the AWS inspects the horse on the basis of what is presented to them, horses which are phenotypically sport horses, but genotypically are not, may still do well.

P.S. I'm not following the "all warmbloods are mutts" argument. Yes, there is a lot of crossing of different warmbloods, and some Thoroughbred, and less often some Arabian, but I don't view this as a "mutt". A mutt, to me, in the sense of this discussion, would be a QH/Morgan/grade/Appy/something which someone is trying to slap a warmblood or sport horse label on. (Right?)

Well, I know a very successful Morgan sporthorse breeder. They have carefully selected sporthorse lines and are consistently turning out nice horses who excel not only in the breedshows, but in the open eventing shows (with regular adult ammie riders). Sure, they aren't out there doing advanced eventing on a regular basis (although with a good pro rider, one of those Morgans was successful at the advanced levels!). And wasn't it a team of Morgans that ate up the WEG in CDE? I do suspect we'll see the day when Morgans are included in the sporthorse category. And Arabians too. When I look through USDF's annual yearbook, I always seem some Morgans and Arabians in the FEI levels. Now, Paints, Appies, Quarterhorses, Saddlebreds, not so much...

30 years ago, no one included Tbreds in the category - only crazy Americans would cross a Warmblood to a (gasp) Tbred...

I think AWS is trying to support American breeders, as we try to figure out our sporthorse breeding process. We used Tbred, now we are looking at our other American breeds to determine what else might make for a better sporthorse. And I think one of the next big challenges we face is creating a long term SOUND sporthorse. Which may mean infusing something smaller and sturdier, and adding back some of that foot and bone we bred out with the Tbred.

I don't think AWS is advocating breeding a Saddlebred/Paint/Tbred/WB cross, but if such a horse turns out nice, at least it is a place to document what that horse is. The horse would have to be extraordinary to make it to their top books - and at the bottom books, that isn't anything different than a COP from RPSI, AHA, Oldenburg, etc.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Darlyn, I see (I think). It's about registration of "type", regardless of parentage -- not about breeding for that "type". Is that right?

It is about both. Their goal is to educate people about the types and choices that they should be looking for to excel in Dressage, Jumping, etc. They are trying to teach people about bloodlines, and the need to look at a pedigree to improve their chances of selecting for their goals. Also to show the Elite book, and very high scoring horses that they feel ARE nice enough to be bred.

I just don't see it as black and white with some breeds. I see MANY TBs that are approved into European MMBs that are AWFUL, can't move, no elasticity, scrawny hindquarter, terribly weak loin connection (true of many full Warmboods too), low set necks, etc.

Then I see a QH mare that is so much more appropriate for Warmblood breeding. Pedigree is for performance QH, not halter/peanut rolling QH. Elastic gaits. Why not breed that, instead of the horrible MMB TB? Some people may say don't breed either, but after watching inspections that the Europeans are TELLING the owners of those TBs to breed them, it is definitely not better than the AWS saying that some QH blood is acceptable.

This is the result of the AWS allowing QH blood to be bred to a Warmblood stallion. Pictured here as a 3 & 4 year old, she has been winning, scoring 68+% in Recognized dressage shows with her Young rider against lots of full Warmbloods. She jumps too. Also full sibling photos, so the mare is a consistent breeder. Yes, you can see the QH butt coming thru, but that is not a bad thing, especially when they have the elasticity, upwards thrust, and rhythm in their gaits.

I know which mare I would choose to breed. (JFYI, the conformation shot is a yearling)

[Adamantane]

Let me ask another dumb question from my position of ignorance.

I have the sense that while none of the posters here would do such a thing, the unspoken (and, per Atlantis, spoken) fear is that there is a cottage industry "out there" of folks who are trying to make silk purses from sow's ears with third party paperwork, for the purpose of foisting the tarted up sow's ears on unsuspecting buyers who are more impressed by the paper than what their eyes tell them about the critter and its suitability to do whatever is desired.

Is this such a common practice? Are there buyers (for use or further training and resale, not further breeding) who rely solely on the paperwork?

Or even for breeding?:eek:

Obviously breeding is irrelevant to my example, but in the world of coin collecting, for about thirty years there have been inspecting and
certifying organizations whose grades are placed on plastic holders containing the coin. The idea is that buyers can rely on the grade sight unseen and that a more coherent market will result.

Of course the integrity of the grading is critical, and predictably some outfits 'overgraded' coins because there is a big difference in the value of what is termed a MS-65 coin and an MS-66. You take your doggier coins to these folks and, voila, you have indeed made a silk purse from a sow's ear. Or coins that are ugly as sin, but because eye appeal is subjective and the formal criteria are met, they 'technically' qualify for a high grade. But the word gets around, and there's that pesky coin itself in the sealed holder that sometimes actually gets looked at.

I have actually heard people argue that even though by personal inspection it is clear that an encapsulated graded coin is not as good as what the grading service says, it is worth more just because the holder says so. However nobody but an idiot actually accepts that argument. It's like saying that counterfeit money is good to spend because, well, I accepted it in good faith, so why shouldn't you?

It's like any other kind of certification or credential such as for riding instructors -- hi, Siegi ;)-- at best it only means as much as the certifying outfit's standards, and at best can only serve as a rough guideline. (Pedigrees of course, are objective, and hopefully predictive, but that's a matter of probabilities, too.)

The buyer (of anything) has the responsibility to know what the paperwork actually means, but more importantly the responsibility to learn and know exactly what he is buying.

You don't train, ride, or compete the paperwork. (Although someone posted that apparently some organizations apparetly do breed the paperwork -- who needs the actual horse? --sight unseen!:lol:)

This thread is great fun and beyond educational.:yes:

[Horsecrazy27]

I believe only a small percentage of horses presented to the AWS for inspection are out of "AWS Approved for Breeding" and "Elite Book" mares and stallions. The AWS has breeding approval and different books for a reason - the guidance for breeders is there - but what can they do when so few people adhere to it? The highest level of registration in the AWS is to be both in the Elite Book and Approved for Breeding. The standards to achieve this are vastly different from merely being "Registered", or the lowest tier, merely being "Recorded".

A horse which is in the Elite Book and Approved for Breeding is much more in line with the European registries. It requires proven performance, inspection, and a minimum 4 generation pedigree of "sport horses" (so I'm assuming this rules out any QHs, Morgans, or whichever odd breeds have been used as examples on this thread.) Now if only more people were breeding using stock from the Elite Book and/or Approved for Breeding..!

I agree there are breeders who don't understand throwbacks or genotypes, etc. There is a reason Warmbloods dominate top sport, and there is a reason Warmbloods are bred from Warmblood and Thoroughbred stock. To take a sporty QH, a sporty Morgan, a sporty Paint horse, and use it for breeding is such a risk because while these horses may be sporty in the sense of their phenotype, they are not sport horses in the sense of their genotype.

Because the AWS inspects the horse on the basis of what is presented to them, horses which are phenotypically sport horses, but genotypically are not, may still do well.

But is this an AWS problem? Does this encourage breeders to breed haphazardly based on a phenotype, and sometimes not even that? (I swear there are breeders whose breeding plan seems to rely totally on dumb luck! Usually unsuccessfully, I might add.) Or does some responsibility lie with the breeders, to become better educated, or to take advantage of the Elite Books and Breeding Approval when selecting breeding stock?

I think the AWS is a great idea in theory, and there are some great, knowledgeable people involved with it. The problem is as much with the people who take advantage of the AWS as a dumping ground for their Heinz 57's, or who breed Heinz 57's on purpose because they think they can slap the "Warmblood" label on them, and perhaps you could argue the AWS enables this.

P.S. I'm not following the "all warmbloods are mutts" argument. Yes, there is a lot of crossing of different warmbloods, and some Thoroughbred, and less often some Arabian, but I don't view this as a "mutt". A mutt, to me, in the sense of this discussion, would be a QH/Morgan/grade/Appy/something which someone is trying to slap a warmblood or sport horse label on. (Right?)


When you mention education, I just want to bring up how extremely educational an AWS inspection is. Out of all the different inspections I have gone to, the AWS bypasses any of them. They hold the inspection in an open format--you are allowed to ask questions, you are allowed to pick their brains, they will show video tapes of horses (sometimes in other registry's) that have scored 9's on movements and educate your eyes to what is the "ideal". Many people don't really understand what is ideal. They are told by other people that their horse is a "10", but really have no concept on what a "10" is. The inspection 2 weeks ago, people were in SHOCK of their scores. A foal that the owner for sure thought was a 10---got a 6!! Don't get me wrong, it was gorgeous, but had some obvious joint issues. The judge told her to have her re-inspected at a later date. The filly was very pretty----not perfect, but was beautiful. The judge was very kind in trying to explain to the owner and trying to educate her eye in that the foal was not using it's hind end to stop, to turn and was basically trotting around on it's forehand, and it had some swelling issues. The owner was not happy. This foal was by a top Euro stallion and out of a really nice mare, I believe the mare had an Euro pedigree. The first foal of the day had an incredible top line, shoulder and really used himself fantastic and far and above what you would expect for his 5 weeks of age. The judge pointed out that this is great having such a quality horse go first, so you can educate your eye to the "ideal". As the little one was at liberty, she had every watch how he used his top line at all the gaits, how he was free through the shoulder and even how he used his stomache muscles as he did this fancy little extended trot across the arena! He had a very active hind leg, with lots of flex, drive and came forward properly. He also trotted around like he was in a collected frame (top line), gave at his poll naturally. If you were really watching and listening, it was obvious when the other horses came out how they came less to the "ideal". She reminded everyone that she has to score on what she see's that day----and some of the yearling horses--of course are not at their ideal stage to inspect. The stallion ===was an Oldenburg--with a grand sire that was Salle France, the dam was an Arab. The colt was gorgeous!! Tall, SUPER hip, longish legs (could of been a bit longer) short back, super angle on his shoulder, neck was proper, with great top line, but could of been a bit longer--could of been the age, fantastic head, beautiful movement scoring 7.9, still room for improvement, but huge improvement over the mare. The colt has a bright future in sport----and should be sensational in the Half Arab shows. This person could of just registered him as a half arab, but wanted her breeding ideas inspected to make sure she is on the right page and to educate her self to improve her eye and knowledge for the future.

The scores of the inspection, 3 horses scored over 70%. There were around 16 horses submitted. 2 of the 3 over that 70 % were 71 and 72%. The number one colt was an 83.5 I believe?

Anyway...that is my 2 cents on that.

[Horsecrazy27]

It is about both. Their goal is to educate people about the types and choices that they should be looking for to excel in Dressage, Jumping, etc. They are trying to teach people about bloodlines, and the need to look at a pedigree to improve their chances of selecting for their goals. Also to show the Elite book, and very high scoring horses that they feel ARE nice enough to be bred.

I just don't see it as black and white with some breeds. I see MANY TBs that are approved into European MMBs that are AWFUL, can't move, no elasticity, scrawny hindquarter, terribly weak loin connection (true of many full Warmboods too), low set necks, etc.

Then I see a QH mare that is so much more appropriate for Warmblood breeding. Pedigree is for performance QH, not halter/peanut rolling QH. Elastic gaits. Why not breed that, instead of the horrible MMB TB? Some people may say don't breed either, but after watching inspections that the Europeans are TELLING the owners of those TBs to breed them, it is definitely not better than the AWS saying that some QH blood is acceptable.

This is the result of the AWS allowing QH blood to be bred to a Warmblood stallion. Pictured here as a 3 & 4 year old, she has been winning, scoring 68+% in Recognized dressage shows with her Young rider against lots of full Warmbloods. She jumps too. Also full sibling photos, so the mare is a consistent breeder. Yes, you can see the QH butt coming thru, but that is not a bad thing, especially when they have the elasticity, upwards thrust, and rhythm in their gaits.

I know which mare I would choose to breed. (JFYI, the conformation shot is a yearling)

beautiful!

[pinecone]

I think AWS is trying to support American breeders, as we try to figure out our sporthorse breeding process.

What's to 'figure out'? :confused: What's wrong with following the European model? It does sound a bit like you're wanting to reinvent the wheel, or to use the prior metaphor, trying to make apple pie with oranges and now, broccoli.

I thought the purpose of the AWS was to encourage the breeding of quality Warmbloods on American soil, but still based on the European model.

[pintopiaffe]

What's wrong with following the European model?

The European model is based on geography, and in many cases was or is government sponsored.

To say that we should have the same system here is *at times* just irrelevant. Should we have regions with regional standards and types? The NorthEast might end up with a rather baroque looking horse thanks to the Morgan & Canadienne influence... and before you start on about how neither of those is 'acceptable' bloodlines... that's EXACTLY how the Euro registries evolved.

Think about it.

I actually love the fact that I can *record* my non-breeding gelding with AWS for purposes of tracking, and having his results tied to his sire, dam and even granddam etc.

RPSI has very similar rules. They will also *record* any horse presented to them. Doesn't mean they are approved, just means their bloodlines are recorded.

Do I agree that one person should hold all the marbles in AWS inspections? Not necessarily, but then Otto virtually does for RPSI in NA. And AWS has been lovely to work with, unlike my contacts with the other AW organisation.

Do I think that we might better be served if it was "American Warmblood *AND* Sporthorse", absolutely. But who am I to make them change their name.

Not all sporthorses are warmbloods. And therein lies much of the argument. But it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be inspected, approved, recognized for their talent & achievements and sometimes god forbid even their heridability.

[Peace of Cake]

.

[Adamantane]

PieceofCake, for my part I enjoy hearing the back-and-forth because I would have no other way to learn about this kind of thing.

They do AWS inspections nearby and while I have been in the dark about the cosmic purpose of that or other registries -- which is the reason for my questions -- it's been interesting to see them done.

I agree with the poster who commented that having the judge explain what she sees that many of the rest of us may not know enough to look for, is both educational and fun, in some ways moreso than going to certain competitions where no explanations are ever available to anyone but the scribe, the competitors and with whomever the competitors choose to share them.

For twenty years or more I was completely in the dark about horse-related activities while they went on nearby. Even when I was present, it was mostly a complete mystery since I didn't know enough to even ask the dumb questions I do now or probably understand many of the answers if anyone had been willing to provide them.

So let the bickering continue. Everybody is civil. Why not?

[carolprudm]

What's to 'figure out'? :confused: What's wrong with following the European model? It does sound a bit like you're wanting to reinvent the wheel, or to use the prior metaphor, trying to make apple pie with oranges and now, broccoli.

I thought the purpose of the AWS was to encourage the breeding of quality Warmbloods on American soil, but still based on the European model.
Because I for one, don't like many of the horses the "European model" produces, they look to much like ASB's

[Peace of Cake]

Carry on.... I don't mind. I was informed that at one time the moderators discussed not allowing these conversations. As long as they are educational and not out of line. But I did get my answer and I thank those people for that.

[ahf]

I don't know why folks like AHF and others think that if a horse - any horse - is in a registry, they are forced to use it for breeding. Where does that come from?

Where does it come from? It doesn't. you have developed a nasty habit of attributing to me positions I have not taken, or for that matter, ever addressed. Please stop that.

If she was wonderful and sport-bred (and I believe you), why was that such a risk? I am thinking about improvement TBs like Prince Thatch and Lauries Crusader. Surely the mere fact she was a TB couldn't have been the problem, and registered TBs, at least, have documented parentage a mile long, so presumably you would have some idea of the horses that came before her. I am just not getting why she was a higher risk than breeding a European warmblood mare who had yet to produce a foal.


Celle adds a number of new TB's to their stations every year. For every LC or Prince Thatch, there are probably 40 TB stallions whose produce for the VhW were, ummmm, disappointing. I've not been able to discern, outside of a trend in euro TB lineage, what traits a TB will bring to the WB table with any certainty outside of a substantial amount of progeny on the ground. I DO know that the result is sometimes fantastic.

I was in the unique position with that TB mare of knowing not just her history, but seeing her dam and grand-dam and all they produced (strictly sport TB breeding). Which is why I felt comfortable even attempting it. Oh man, how wrong I was. The colt I bred had issues that I had not seen for 2 generations. Narrow, slab-sided, shark-withered, weak-backed, short hipped and to top it all off, light underpinnings. I mean to tell you, it was bad and I was there. THis from a TB line that when bred to TB produced 9" cannons, elastic movement, substantial, valuable progeny. I remember a Knights Landing colt that was to die for.

You get one of those, and you seriously question your judgement and it will make you forever worried about repeating the mistake.

[~Freedom~]

I was in the unique position with that TB mare of knowing not just her history, but seeing her dam and grand-dam and all they produced (strictly sport TB breeding). Which is why I felt comfortable even attempting it. Oh man, how wrong I was. The colt I bred had issues that I had not seen for 2 generations. Narrow, slab-sided, shark-withered, weak-backed, short hipped and to top it all off, light underpinnings. I mean to tell you, it was bad and I was there. THis from a TB line that when bred to TB produced 9" cannons, elastic movement, substantial, valuable progeny. I remember a Knights Landing colt that was to die for.


It is often said that the blood should be on top and I agree with this ( but can turn out fine the other way around too). I believe blood on top is what the European breeders believe in also.

Ahlerich is an example of exactly that...TB stallion on a D Hannovarian mare.

[sid]

Freedom - yet blood on top in other breeding endeavors can be disastrous. More often than not in draft x breeding for sport horses.

What works for those who have been breeding sporthorses I(aka warmbloods) and honed it to a fine art, phenotypically and genotypically doesn't necessarily translate to other breeds PREDICTABLY.

This is where it gets very, very dicey for those who see the AWS as a breed registry.

Again, I make no disparaging remarks about the AWS. I know little about them. But it seems to me the marketing and development of an American Warmblood includes culling.

I agree with someone else who posted that the name of the registry would be clearer if it was named as a "sporthorse" registry for all that are deemed sporthorse material, regardless of their parentage.

This thread has been intriguing and helped me understand how some of my stallions' unregistered mares are getting their offpsring registered with the AWS.

[FriesianX]

I think this is a great thread! Thank you Cake for starting it. I think several people have pointed out, the European model is a place for us to START, but it isn't the end all. And remember, 30 years ago, the European model didn't have many Tbreds in the mix, so they too are evolving.

We aren't trying to invent the wheel here in the US, we are trying to fine tune it to suit our own goals. Or maybe, to use the apples and oranges quote - we aren't trying to turn oranges into apple pie, we're trying to figure out if there is a better pie flavor using a few apples and oranges, and maybe a little caramel thrown on top.

I'm one (a few have mentioned this now) that don't like the ASB looking, spindly legged, thin hooky necked WB Euro model. So much research (and practical application) is showing these horses don't stay sound, they aren't easy to ride, and once we get over the WOW of the front end, we realize the back end isn't really so wow...

Euro Warmbloods are not the only sporthorses on the block. The Tbred was one of the first non-WBs to burst onto the scene, and I suspect we'll see others. I mentioned before, the Morgan has really taken on the CDE world. Why shouldn't we take advantage of some of our U.S. sporthorse breeds? And some people are including ASB as a sporthorse - I don't think the Euro WB has a trademark on the term "sport horse".

I include a lot of Euro-WB in my breeding program (Wolkenstein II, Lehnsritter, Diamont, Galoubet, Graf Gotthard, etc), but it isn't the only thing I include. Yeah, I throw a few oranges in with the apples :) And AWS is a concept I support as a U.S. breeder. I don't think they are really much different than many of the Euro-Registries, except they are OURS! Actually, I'm pretty excited to be hosting my first AWS inspection this Fall...

[YankeeLawyer]

Where does it come from? It doesn't. you have developed a nasty habit of attributing to me positions I have not taken, or for that matter, ever addressed. Please stop that.



Celle adds a number of new TB's to their stations every year. For every LC or Prince Thatch, there are probably 40 TB stallions whose produce for the VhW were, ummmm, disappointing. I've not been able to discern, outside of a trend in euro TB lineage, what traits a TB will bring to the WB table with any certainty outside of a substantial amount of progeny on the ground. I DO know that the result is sometimes fantastic.

I was in the unique position with that TB mare of knowing not just her history, but seeing her dam and grand-dam and all they produced (strictly sport TB breeding). Which is why I felt comfortable even attempting it. Oh man, how wrong I was. The colt I bred had issues that I had not seen for 2 generations. Narrow, slab-sided, shark-withered, weak-backed, short hipped and to top it all off, light underpinnings. I mean to tell you, it was bad and I was there. THis from a TB line that when bred to TB produced 9" cannons, elastic movement, substantial, valuable progeny. I remember a Knights Landing colt that was to die for.

You get one of those, and you seriously question your judgement and it will make you forever worried about repeating the mistake.

That makes sense. I was just curious. Thanks for explaining : ).

[Home Again Farm]

I'm one (a few have mentioned this now) that don't like the ASB looking, spindly legged, thin hooky necked WB Euro model. So

Can you show me a picture of such a beast? I do not see horses like this being successful in inspections or licensings. I think a picture might be worth a thousand words.

[tri]

ahf, I don't know about it being a "habit" as you say, but you are right. I should have directed the post to Donella and Sandra instead of to you. I'm sorry. Many posts have been attributed to me and I have to politely tell them that it was a different poster...and then, of course, there are those that just make up stuff - we all know who they are! - and lie! I see other posts mistakenly attributed to others so it isn't just you and I, if it makes you feel any better.

I thought the purpose of the AWS was to encourage the breeding of quality Warmbloods on American soil, but still based on the European model.

That is the AWR not the AWS, pinecone.

What's to 'figure out'? What's wrong with following the European model? It does sound a bit like you're wanting to reinvent the wheel, or to use the prior metaphor, trying to make apple pie with oranges and now, broccoli.

Also, pinecone, I have to ask you a question. Don't you think that the european have "reinvented" the wheel over the last 20-30 years?? The euro warmblood of today is vastly different that it was then and they did it by infusing a lot more TB than ever before and also, by NOT using some of the BREEDS that used to be considered a foundation. For example, isn't there a huge move with the KWPN to do away with the Gelderlander blood that used to be such a foundation and is now considered not so desirable? Also, I was in Germany one time listening to the head of the Oldenburg Verband and he described how they had to almost FORCE the breeders to use more TB stallions. The breeders didn't want to because the foals weren't considered as marketable but the registry wanted to - dare I say, reinvent the oldenburg - considerably lighten their type.

And, now we are seeing the european registries such as Oldenburg and BWP also starting to approve stallions and mares with quarterhorse blood. Some always included draft blood. But only the best horses will make it to the top and be the most marketable. So, in essence, it IS the european model only adapted to our region - the U.S. - and our markets and our industry.

So, see, we are following the european model only adapting it to our region - the U.S. - our environment and our industry.

[Bent Hickory]

And, now we are seeing the european registries such as Oldenburg and BWP also starting to approve stallions and mares with quarterhorse blood.

This statement is so unbelievably misleading it's laughable. It never ceases to amaze me how some folks can spin a set of facts for their own convenience.

[Horsecrazy27]

This statement is so unbelievably misleading it's laughable. It never ceases to amaze me how some folks can spin a set of facts for their own convenience.

It is true? Look at the other thread---I know of many horses accepted into the books of Oldenburg that have some qtr horse blood, irish blood.

[FriesianX]

Can you show me a picture of such a beast? I do not see horses like this being successful in inspections or licensings. I think a picture might be worth a thousand words.

The only way I can do that is to publicly post links to ads and websites - and that would just upset people who had those horses. In fact, it sounds way too much like that awful website, FHOTD, who pulls pictures of horses from ads and tears them apart. Sorry, I can't stoop to FHOTD tactics... I think there are enough of us here that have commented on that new "modern" WB look - it is obviously something not all of us long to breed for.

[Touchstone Farm]

These arguments get kind of old. Those with the AWS will always justify their breeding choices. Those happy with their European books (like me!) would never go with the AWS. Yet, I find it interesting that many of the breeders involved with the AWS seek out the European mares and/or stallions to breed. Interesting, considering they are such terrible ASB-like crap! Carry on!

[coriander]

30 years ago, no one included Tbreds in the category - only crazy Americans would cross a Warmblood to a (gasp) Tbred...

Have you actually looked at any European warmblood pedigrees? There are TBs in there before 30 years ago. In Holstein in particular, TBs were popular as refining sires - the Bay Rondald/DarkRonald line is pretty well established in that registry. Ramiro (heard of him?) comes to mind as an example of what can result from that "crazy cross" - his damsire is Cottage Son XX. The Germans liked the "blood on top," whereas "crazy Americans" tend to reverse it since so much of our mare base is TB.

To suggest that no one crosssed TBs on warmbloods prior to 30 years ago is just... inacurrate. ;)

[Horsecrazy27]

These arguments get kind of old. Those with the AWS will always justify their breeding choices. Those happy with their European books (like me!) would never go with the AWS. Yet, I find it interesting that many of the breeders involved with the AWS seek out the European mares and/or stallions to breed. Interesting, considering they are such terrible ASB-like crap! Carry on!

On my side---speaking only for me. I'm proud to be born in the USA, and glad my birth certificate says so. My parents are German, Italian and Irish. Since I was born in America, I have an American Birth Certificate. Yet, my grand parents sought German and Italian blood lines. What is the diff?

I LOVE LOVE LOVE and admire the German and Irish horses!! I love the Country, the food, the people, the desserts, the barns, the historical of it all! BUT, my horses are born here in the USA?????????? I am the one who did the match, I being American feel like, it should be awarded to the USA (wins/points) for making that "match". Germany didn't come over here and take my Westfalen mare and breed her to Pablo, I did? I'm the American.

That is my soap box.

[siegi b.]

My question is this...

Why can't the AWS/AWR proponents be happy and satisfied with their registries WITHOUT trying to bash the European registries?

Live and let live...

(but then tri wouldn't be able to spin her yarns :-) )

[not again]

To Peace of Cake:
Good luck with your AWS inspection. I'm sure it will be very educational. We always gain a lot of new information and new friends at our inspections.;)

[Fairview Horse Center]

Why can't the AWS/AWR proponents be happy and satisfied with their registries WITHOUT trying to bash the European registries?

That is my question EXACTLY to the European registry supporters. Why do they always have to bash the American registries? I do support both, and will always point out the issues that are similar.

[FriesianX]

These arguments get kind of old. Those with the AWS will always justify their breeding choices. Those happy with their European books (like me!) would never go with the AWS. Yet, I find it interesting that many of the breeders involved with the AWS seek out the European mares and/or stallions to breed. Interesting, considering they are such terrible ASB-like crap! Carry on!

I think the frustration AWS/AWR and other US registry breeders feel is that the Euro registry breeders spend a lot of time putting down the US registries. Sure, that goes both ways, but generally, those supporting the US registries do it in defense after someone kicks off a salvo shot at us. Everytime anyone here (or on any other bulletin boards) posts a question about AWS (or any other US registry), someone is bound to jump in with a comment about the crap that AWS registrers. Yet the Euro registries do the same thing - they inspect the horse, issue COPs, and for all intents and purposes, the horse has the benefits of being in that registry. I've seen some pretty awful stuff get AHA and RPSI COPs. All registries have some horses they aren't proud of - but the horse is accepted into the lowest status because that is what a registry does, it documents the lineage.

In no way am I saying that all AHA or all NAWPN or all (fill in the blank) US branches of Euro registries are Saddlebred crap, but they sure are moving toward lighter, hotter (modern is the word used) horses with extravegant front ends. We see postings all over here and UDBB showing horses with huge front end extension and very little behind. I attend several inspections each year and see what is currently being rewarded. The old style is not "in" anymore, sadly for some of us!

These horses tend to also be very light in build. In fact, there have been a few big threads on WHERE are the old style, big boned WBs? What is happening to the WB type? Research papers and articles coming out on how these bigger (taller), lighter boned horses are not built to stay sound, that their bone and foot mass can't support their size.

So, why can't those supporting the Euro registries accept that some of us want to build up support for US registries, and some of us may want to breed for a sturdier, gentler sport horse (that isn't necessarily what all AWS breeders are doing, but several of us on this thread seem to be headed that way).

And why can't we all accept that the Europeans don't hold the patent on sporthorses? Some US (and non-US) breeds that are non-Warmblood are smoking the big sports (which are generally defined as eventing, dressage, jumping, and combined driving). So why shouldn't we be proud of these US breeds and work toward promoting them and incorporating them in our US breeding programs? And incorporating them may mean using both Euro and US breeding. Sport horses evolve - breeding is not a static process.

I don't hate the Euro registries - I have a LOT of respect for what they've done, and heck, the US sport horse registries borrow a lot from them. I love going to inspections, it is always a learning experience, and there are always some lovely horses. But - I'm also excited at the idea of supporting US registries and hoping US breeders can build their own support group, come together toward a common cause - the US bred sporthorse. :yes:

[RiverOaksFarm]

Peace of Cake, I wish I'd seen this thread earlier! Were you at the inspection today? I was there with a client and two stallions (one bay, one black), and went near the end....

I think the inspections are especially interesting and valuable because they are so educational. The inspector discusses everything -- the gaits, the conformation, how/why you want certain things and not others, etc. For anyone who has never been to one, or is new to Warmblood/Sporthorse breeding, or is interested in learning more about the AWS, I really recommend attending an inspection. You may be surprised at how tough the inspector can be!

I breed/train primarily Friesian Sporthorses and Warmbloods, and I support the AWS as well as the FSA (for Friesian Sporthorses), AND also agree with and support most of the European Warmblood and sporthorse ideals. I have a great deal of respect for the European registries and the quality of horses they are producing, but I think there are some very nice horses with the AWS as well. So I like both European and American.

One popular argument against the AWS is that they accept anything, so here is some information/observations from today's inspection:

- I believe 26 horses were presented (some were added which weren't on the sheet, so it may have been more than 26.) This included 7 stallions.
- Out of these +/- 26 horses, only 2 horses scored high enough for Blue Preferred or higher, and only 2 scored high enough to be Approved for Breeding. (Luckily for us, they were the two stallions we took!)
- There were horses which did not score high enough to be certified as American Warmbloods. (In other words, not everything presented passes.)
- Only 4% of all American Warmbloods score high enough to be Approved for Breeding (this statistic is taken directly off the paperwork they gave me.) Only 4% approved for breeding, that's not a big percentage! People may still be breeding unapproved horses, but it's not the AWS recommending/supporting it.....
- There was a mixture of horses presented -- but the non-sporthorse type crosses did not do as well, and they really don't "accept anything", and some people went home unhappy with their scores. It's a fallacy that they accept everything and all horses will score well.

[pintopiaffe]

RiverOaks, nice summary.

My stallion actually scored more poorly with AWS than he did with RPSI. Granted he was having a VERY bad day... but he was plenty good enough for RPSI, the loved him. AWS scored more harshly.

Both RPSI *and* AWS "record" horses presented to them. AWS has a minimum score even for that, as RiverOaks said, not *everything* makes it. The misunderstandings really revolve around the books and levels of recording & approveal.

[FriesianX]

4% is a pretty strong statement that AWS is selective!

[Horsecrazy27]

I find it interesting that no one commented on my comments. LOL I thought I was going to get flamed from here to next week. LOL


Anyway, nice descript of the inspection you went to. thanks for sharing!

:)

[tri]

Horsecrazy and others, I too get so tired of the ignorant people here accusing me of hating the europeans, hating the warmblood system, breeding crossbreds, etc. The european warmblood breeding system is to bring in the best horses from a variety of areas, blend them together and call them after the region they live in. I don't know why some think to try to do the exact same here in the U.S. is "reinventing" the wheel. It is the exact same wheel!!

There is no good reason for Americans to be supporting a foreign breeding entity. They may like them, admire them, learn from them, buy from them, but why give the entire U.S. sporthorse breeding industry over to them? It is completely beyond logical reason and destructive to building our own industry.

Then there are apparently people like Bent Hick, who just haven't been paying attention. The horses are IN THE EURO REGISTRIES with the quarter horse blood - fully approved stallions with foals going into the highest books.

Oh, and lets not forget Touchstone who posts Those with the AWS will always justify their breeding choices.

Justify breeding choices?? If the stallion is approved BWP, AHS, KWPN, Old Verband, Oldna and AWS and the mare is approved BWP, AHS, KWPN, Old Verband, Oldna and AWS and the breeder resides in the U.S. so decides to register AWS, what is there to justify?? How is the "breeding choice" any different than any other warmblood breeder who is matching up the mare with the right stallion?? The foal didn't morph because the choice went AWS, it could also be any of the others as well. You can stick your head in the sand and pout like a child if you want Touchstone but there is no difference in many of the foals registered AWS, BWP, AHS, or KWPN. Get over it.

[siegi b.]

So I guess we'll see an AWS horse win Dressage at Devon this year, right tri? After all, you'd want to put your money where your mouth is... :-)

(But then you'll probably find some excuse as to why you don't want to win DAD! :-) :-) )

[Touchstone Farm]

siegi b -- don't you find it interesting that those bashing the European registries are the first ones to run to breed to those stallions?! On the one hand, they wave the American flag and think that those of us working with sister registries of the European-based ones are so off the mark...but then look at how quickly they line up for buying the mares and stallions associated with those horrible European registries. Me thinks they protest too much.

Now, I need to go play the Star Spangled Banner and sing the national anthem, although probably a blasphemous act since I am associated with a European registry. How un-American of me. :-)

[MagicRoseFarm]

I do not see any Europe bashing...

What I see is a group of people TRYING to maintain an intelligent discussion what they do and do not like about some of the many different geography based Sporttype Warmblood Associations, and how those associations, their policies and choices affect each individual.

and a few trying to cause a train wreck, some inadvertently, by not voicing their opinion in the most constructive way possible,

and others just looking for a fight, yet again.

[Horsecrazy27]

I do not see any Europe bashing...

What I see is a group of people TRYING to maintain an intelligent discussion what they do and do not like about some of the many different geography based Sporttype Warmblood Associations, and how those associations, their policies and choices affect each individual.

and a few trying to cause a train wreck, some inadvertently, by not voicing their opinion in the most constructive way possible,

and others just looking for a fight....

I agree. :)

[YankeeLawyer]

That is my question EXACTLY to the European registry supporters. Why do they always have to bash the American registries? I do support both, and will always point out the issues that are similar.

I don't. I really think it is great everyone is so enthusiastic about their preferred registries. I have better things to do than to worry about things that are not relevant to the focus of my program.

[YankeeLawyer]

Then there are apparently people like Bent Hick, who just haven't been paying attention. The horses are IN THE EURO REGISTRIES with the quarter horse blood - fully approved stallions with foals going into the highest books.
.

Admittedly, your statement gave me pause also. Can you name any of these stallions with QH lineage?

[MagicRoseFarm]

I am not surprised that there would be QH lineage in foreign based associations, especially with the numbers of QH being imported from the US overseas,,,

it WILL happen if/when an individual suits that Association.....

[YankeeLawyer]

I am not surprised that there would be QH lineage in foreign based associations, especially with the numbers of QH being imported from the US overseas,,,

it WILL happen if/when an individual suits that Association.....

Can anyone name ONE in the AHS? Or the AHA? KWPN? Anyone?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Up until about 10 years ago, 1997? the NA/WPN inspected mares of unknown pedigree for the lower Aux? studbook, so I am sure there are some different lines/breeds in there. Please note, I am NOT trashing the Dutch. I LOVE the Dutch, and their methods. To me, the Dutch are the ONLY registry that has the confidence in pedigree. They obviously also felt a VERY short time ago, that a nice horse with the phenotype they were looking for would not ruin their goals, no matter what the pedigree, and may bring something to the table. They have proven to be an open minded registry, accepting horses like the Irish Draught. They have also shown willingness to look at other breeds if they felt they had something to offer for a particular cross or goal.

[YankeeLawyer]

Up until about 10 years ago, 1997? the NA/WPN inspected mares of unknown pedigree for the lower Aux? studbook, so I am sure there are some different lines/breeds in there. Please note, I am NOT trashing the Dutch. I LOVE the Dutch, and their methods. To me, the Dutch are the ONLY registry that has the confidence in pedigree. They obviously also felt a VERY short time ago, that a nice horse with the phenotype they were looking for would not ruin their goals, no matter what the pedigree, and may bring something to the table. They have proven to be an open minded registry, accepting horses like the Irish Draught. They have also shown willingness to look at other breeds if they felt they had something to offer for a particular cross or goal.

Perhaps (I don't claim to be an expert on Dutch WBs, I only own one). However, Tri claimed:

Then there are apparently people . .. who just haven't been paying attention. The horses are IN THE EURO REGISTRIES with the quarter horse blood - fully approved stallions with foals going into the highest books.

I would like to know which fully approved stallions in the "EURO REGISTRIES" (1) have QH blood and (2) have foals going into the highest books.

[DownYonder]

Oldenburg (GOV) does still accept sport-type QH mares into its lowest mare book. However, stallions must meet the following requirements to be licensed.

From the rulebook:
"The dam and granddam of the stallion must be in the Main Mare Book or be eligible for the Main Mare Book of the Oldenburg Horse Breeders' Society or that of a registry acknowledged by the German Oldenburg Verband and the Oldenburg Horse Breeders' Society. In addition, the stallion must have a 4-generation pedigree of licensed and approved stallions as follows: The sire of the stallion and all the sires of the damline going back three generations must have been licensed and approved by the Oldenburg Horse Breeders' Society or by an acknowledged registry."

Given this, it is theoretically possible for a stallion with QH blood far back in the pedigree to become licensed, but it hasn't happened yet and probably isn't likely to happen in the foreseeable future.

[not again]

What does all of this have to do with the original poster's question?????

[DownYonder]

What does all of this have to do with the original poster's question?????

Nothing, really. I was just trying to answer the question about stallions with QH blood being approved by Oldenburg. Sorry for the sidetracking! :D

[tri]

To answer the question from Yankee Lawyer: Victory Gallop is a fully approved BWP stallion with a dam with Quarter horse blood - I've posted this before so I'm not sure why the multiple posts asking to name them.

Also, I have posted regarding Cooldanz and mentioned the other current thread where it is discussed quite a bit - he is a fully approved Oldenburg stallion with paint blood in the dam line.

Cooldanz has also been exported to England for one of their top int'l level riders.

And, as I've posted before, there have been some mares with quarter horse blood - as Down Yonder mentioned as well - that have been approved in both the Oldenburg Verband and the Oldna registries.

Touchstone, I hope you are not including me with the euro registry bashing. I am a huge fan and spend a good deal of time in europe. In fact, I like them so much, I very much wish for a similar program here - but one that meets the environment, markets, demographics and industry that we have here in the U.S. - not one that caters to a foreign membership base for their benefit.

not again, I think where it ties in to the OP's question is all the american regstry bashing pointing to the allowance of non-traditional wb horses and some of us where just illustrating that we are seeing it in other "euro' registries as well. This fact, I think, is little known.

[tri]

I deal mostly with jumpers, so I guess that is my silly excuse not to be interested in DAD, but I am sure we will see some american registered horses doing very well at Dressage at Devon.

However, I do know that the AWR stallion Romancer was PVDA Grand Champion, VADA NOVA Reserve Grand Champion, Morven Park Breed Show Grand Champion and was the High Point Training Level horse at Morven Park Dressage Show

So.....for those of you that are so interested in "breed" show wins, that record isn't too bad. Me, though, I'm more interested in horses that win in actual performance so I know more about that than getting so caught up in trotting in hand around triangles.

[YankeeLawyer]

So.....for those of you that are so interested in "breed" show wins, that record isn't too bad. Me, though, I'm more interested in horses that win in actual performance so I know more about that than getting so caught up in trotting in hand around triangles.

Just an FYI, DAD does have performance classes as well, obviously.

[not again]

I have bred and shown in hand champions at Dressage at Devon and also won in the performance show myself and with others in the irons, and bred internationally ranked USA bred and registered dressage horses. I have also bred and sold some pretty famous hunters and jumpers. If you all want names, I'll be glad to provide.
Point being, you all seem to think that there is no room for anything but your own ideas of what registry has good horses. Isn't it wonderful we live in the USA where we don't have to agree.;)

[YankeeLawyer]

I have bred and shown in hand champions at Dressage at Devon and also won in the performance show myself and with others in the irons, and bred internationally ranked USA bred and registered dressage horses. I have also bred and sold some pretty famous hunters and jumpers. If you all want names, I'll be glad to provide.
Point being, you all seem to think that there is no room for anything but your own ideas of what registry has good horses. Isn't it wonderful we live in the USA where we don't have to agree.;)

Not me, I just asked for names to back up Tri's claim re the QHs. FWIW, I happen to love QHs. I just haven't seen any stallions with QH lineage approved recently by the Hanoverian Verband for *its* program. Most of my own personal show successes were with TBs and Selle Francais (in H/J). I don't breed either of those now, either, but it doesn't mean I don't think they are nice horses.

[not again]

Karen Hoopes Cadwallader rode her registered quarter horse to high ribbons at Dressage at Devon as well as many other shows at grand prix. She trained him herself. He carried, as I recall, the Rikers prefix, a very famous QH bloodline.

[DownYonder]

Also, I have posted regarding Cooldanz and mentioned the other current thread where it is discussed quite a bit - he is a fully approved Oldenburg stallion with paint blood in the dam line.

Cooldanz has also been exported to England for one of their top int'l level riders.


Just for the record, Cooldanz is NOT an approved Oldenburg stallion and in fact, is not eligible for approval with Oldenburg because of the Paint blood close up in his pedigree. Neither is he approved by ISR/ONA - they actually turned him down for licensing. Nor was he "exported to England for one of their top int'l level riders". He was exported because the buyer in England likes pintos. The "top int'l level rider" came into the picture much later.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Cooldanz is however, a fully registered and branded Oldenburg, and his dam with the paint blood is approved Oldenburg.

[FriesianX]

siegi b -- don't you find it interesting that those bashing the European registries are the first ones to run to breed to those stallions?! On the one hand, they wave the American flag and think that those of us working with sister registries of the European-based ones are so off the mark...but then look at how quickly they line up for buying the mares and stallions associated with those horrible European registries. Me thinks they protest too much.

Now, I need to go play the Star Spangled Banner and sing the national anthem, although probably a blasphemous act since I am associated with a European registry. How un-American of me. :-)

Do you really think we are bashing the Euro registries? I think we are happy to LEARN from them, but want our own registry(ies), and the ability to evolve in our own ways, instead of ALWAYS following the Euro trendsetting. And we are happy to use many of their bloodlines, but want to establish our own fabulous stallions, mares, and breeding direction. Maybe that means accepting a stallion like Cooldanz, with his Paint and Warmblood lineage.

Heck, there was an Olympic Jumper a few years back that was part CLYDESDALE - they are doing embryo transfer on her right now to try to preserve that lineage. The Euros wouldn't touch her or her offspring with a 10 foot pole (Ok, they would give her a COP). And that's OK - it is their rules, but isn't it time for us to have our own registry with our own rules? And maybe that would include letting super talented horses into the top books after they and their offspring prove themselves. Wish I knew more about the mare. Only reason I know she exists is through my repro contacts...

AWS takes more than its share of bashing. Yet they are really building a good program. It is a much younger registry, and will probably evolve over the years, but there are many of us who support what it is trying to do!

[amateurbreeder]

Dearest Tri,
Your opinions don't bother me; they are as valid as my opinions. Your positions don't bother me; they are as valid as my positions. I think there is enough room in this country for all the registries, including AWS, AWR, etc.

However, what really bothers me is that you constantly and consistently take 1/4 of a fact (or less) and turn it into a complete, do-not-dare-to-question-me argument. Here is the latest: "For example, isn't there a huge move with the KWPN to do away with the Gelderlander blood that used to be such a foundation and is now considered not so desirable?"

In a word, "no." To shorten the argument within Holland, the KWPN believes that more blood should be introduced into Basic(Gelders) registrations (such as accepting Negro and Inspecteur on the top line) to maintain a viable gene pool, and others (many Gelders breeders) believe the registry should be closed to horses with only Gelders blood to maintain purity. The KWPN believes more blood will maintain the Gelders registry (as they believe and are trying hard to do with the TP); the purists believe this will lower Gelders' standards. They are both right, but your argument (based on reading 1/4 of a sentence somewhere) is wrong.

Whenever I read one of your posts, I remember a mentor of mine once saying, "If we had ham we'd have ham and eggs, if we had the eggs."

[DownYonder]

Cooldanz is however, a fully registered and branded Oldenburg, and his dam with the paint blood is approved Oldenburg.

He is registered and branded by ISR/ONA, which is not the same as OLDENBURG. And, to the best of my knowledge, his dam was never presented for Oldenburg approval. I believe it was HER dam that was put into the MMB by Roland Ramseur before ISR and Oldenburg split. Also, FWIW, I believe that Cooldanz also failed the grading to become a licensed breeding stallion with Sport Horse Breeding of Great Britain.

At any rate, as I have already said - Oldenburg does still accept "off breeds", including QHs, Paints, Appaloosas, etc., into its lowest mare book. They do not encourage it, but they will accept a sport type mare into PMBII. And again - a colt must in essence have 6 generations of APPROVED PEDIGREE to be eligible for consideration as a licensed stallion. By the time you get 6 generations down the road from a QH or Paint mare, her effect is going to be pretty negligible.

Edited to add my apologies to the OP for once again going off topic.

[talloaks]

[quote=DownYonder;3189832] Also, FWIW, I believe that Cooldanz also failed the grading to become a licensed breeding stallion with Sport Horse Breeding of Great Britain.quote]

DY, please fill us in on this association and why Cooldanz was not approved. Of course I have never heard of the association and don't know a thing about breeding in GB.

[Bent Hickory]

The horses are IN THE EURO REGISTRIES with the quarter horse blood

A fact.

And, now we are seeing the european registries such as Oldenburg and BWP also starting to approve stallions and mares with quarterhorse blood.

A misleading statement twisting the original fact to support the author's view.

Just for the rest of the people not paying attention.

[DownYonder]

[quote=DownYonder;3189832] Also, FWIW, I believe that Cooldanz also failed the grading to become a licensed breeding stallion with Sport Horse Breeding of Great Britain.quote]

DY, please fill us in on this association and why Cooldanz was not approved. Of course I have never heard of the association and don't know a thing about breeding in GB.

From the SHBGB website:

“Sport Horse Breeding of Great Britain is the governing body for all in-hand and ridden hunter classes, which are held at major shows throughout the country. As a Member of the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses it is committed to supporting the industry by way of incentives for breeders, education, information and grading schemes.”

And I have no idea why Cooldanz was passed over for licensing with SHBGB. I heard it a while back from a breeder friend in England but he didn’t know if it was because of pedigree or for some other reason.

[talloaks]

[quote=talloaks;3189924]

From the SHBGB website:

“Sport Horse Breeding of Great Britain is the governing body for all in-hand and ridden hunter classes, which are held at major shows throughout the country. As a Member of the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses it is committed to supporting the industry by way of incentives for breeders, education, information and grading schemes.”

And I have no idea why Cooldanz was passed over for licensing with SHBGB. I heard it a while back from a breeder friend in England but he didn’t know if it was because of pedigree or for some other reason.


hunter classes in GB??? I thought they were a NA thing!! So he was passed over for hunter breeding, what about dressage or jumpers?? Which organization controls that in GB?

[DownYonder]

[quote=DownYonder;3190079]


hunter classes in GB??? I thought they were a NA thing!! So he was passed over for hunter breeding, what about dressage or jumpers?? Which organization controls that in GB?

I really don't know much about the organization other than what is on their website. I *thought* it was for dressage, hunters, jumping, eventing, etc., and there are quite a few dressage and jumping stallions listed on its roster, so the statement about "hunter classes" on its homepage is a bit confusing.

[tri]

I am going by the announcement that Cartier made in the earlier thread. Here is a cut & paste for your benefit:

Cooldanz is as much Warmblood as any Warmblood who’s ancestors were presented in the USA from1988 through 1997. Cooldanz is by Contucci and his dam line goes directly back to a mare Dr. Rolland Ramsauer put in the GOV’s Main Mare Book in 1995, at a time when there was only one Oldenburg registry in the USA. Dr. Rolland Ramsauer basically passed on every single Oldenburg in the USA that was bred and presented here from 1988 through 1997. Cooldanz’s phenotype and athleticism speak for themself. He is a branded Oldenburg stallion.

So the mare was originally approved for breeding with the GOV.

As far as John Whitaker, here is also the cut & paste from the announcement:

The above link is to a video of the 2002 Old N/A branded Pinto stallion Cooldanz, who competed on the Sunshine Tour in Spain this year with rider Jo Pay. We hear that John Whitaker is excited about ridding him in the near future. Cooldanz's new owner Cilla Humphreys was so pleased with Cooldanz that she purchased the 2005 Old N/A branded stallion Commander (by Contango) as a showjumping prospect for John Whitaker. Commander arrived in England earlier this year and is now also with Jo Pay. Mr Whitaker competes Utah van Erpekom for Ms Humphreys

As far as his quality - I don't directly know as I have never seen the stallion in person but, according to the announcement, Cooldanz was the Oldenburg NA's 3-year old Material Horse of the Year in 2005.

It is nice to hear posters such as Down Yonder nicely discussing the fact that outside blood is in fact being used in other registries such as the GOV even if it is in the lower books....hey! just like the AWS!!! How bout that!

And, it is wonderful to see how well they are doing to boot?!

[DownYonder]

So the mare was originally approved for breeding with the GOV.

Yes, but…. it was against Oldenburg breeding rules to put QH (and Paint) mares in the MMB, and one of the reasons why Ramseur ended up being dismissed by the Verband. Oldenburg has since then been downgrading those mares and their progeny to the appropriate mare books when and if they are presented at inspections. If Cooldanz’s dam had been presented at an Oldenburg inspection, she would have been placed in PMBII, even though her dam had been (erroneously) placed in MMB by Ramseur. Cooldanz therefore could never be considered for stallion licensing by Oldenburg, or by any of the German WB registries.


As far as John Whitaker, here is also the cut & paste from the announcement:

And here is a cut and paste from Allbreedpedigree.com:

"Cooldanz (a 2002 stallion by Contucci out of the Oldenburg MMB mare Dressin Fancy) has been sold to Mrs. Cilla Humphreys of Surrey England. http://www.utah-van-erpekom.co.uk/home.htm Cooldanz is currently being trained by Lisa White (from New Zealand) and will be focused on the Young Horse Championships and a GP career. Before leaving for England, Cooldanz was Oldenburg Registry North America’s Horse of the Year DSHB 3 Year Old Colt/Gelding Materiale - with scores to 75.1%. Formerly owned by Dr. and Mrs. Greenwood of Logres Farm www.logresfarm.com, Cooldanz is now owned by Mrs. Cilla Humphreys of Surrey England. Mrs. Humphreys also owns the very successful pinto show jumping stallion Utah Van Erpekom. Failed SHBGB grading."

So he was originally slated for a dressage career in England but has obviously switched over to jumpers.

As far as his quality - I don't directly know as I have never seen the stallion in person but, according to the announcement, Cooldanz was the Oldenburg NA's 3-year old Material Horse of the Year in 2005.

I have seen him in person and to be perfectly honest, he did not strike me as stallion material. I do congratulate his owners for his success as ONA's 3 y/o Materiale HOY, but one HOY title does not a stallion make. I do wish his new owner success with him - his pedigree does not say "jumper" to me, but who knows, maybe he will do okay anyway.

[~Freedom~]

This is very interesting but what does this have to do with the AWS.

Why not discuss an AWS stallion or is Cooldanz approved AWS?

[tri]

It just goes back to those who started bashing the AWS as a registry that accepts non-traditional bloodlines versus the "respectable" registries that - they mistakenly think - don't and shows that those euro registries do in fact accept the same bloodlines. Cooldanz was an example because some acted as if they do not believe it.

Downyonder, when I spoke about Cooldanz as "approved", I simply meant that he was presented and approved into the registry and branded, etc. I did not mean that he was a licensed breeding stallion.

However, as I stated, Victory Gallop is in fact a fully approved BWP stallion for breeding in the top book of the BWP.

Some have said that I am twisting the facts to suit my purpose but how is that twisting the facts? The horse is either accepted or not accepted, approved or not approved.

How is it different?

[siegi b.]

Tri's statement regarding Cooldanz ---- "Also, I have posted regarding Cooldanz and mentioned the other current thread where it is discussed quite a bit - he is a fully approved Oldenburg stallion with paint blood in the dam line."

Tri's tap dancing around the statement to suit her purpose ------ "Downyonder, when I spoke about Cooldanz as "approved", I simply meant that he was presented and approved into the registry and branded, etc. I did not mean that he was a licensed breeding stallion."

I did like that statement made by Amateur Breeder .. 'If we had ham we could have ham and eggs if we had eggs!" Tri-speak at its finest! :-) :-)

[~Freedom~]

Well seig b, tri and various others that post in this forum that seem to get into this sort of he said she said here is what I see and think.

Every registry has a purpose. Some obvious are less purposeful than others but you know I really don't give sh*t about one obscure stallion that has very little meaning to me.

I am well aware of the importation of Quarter horses into Europe and considering the Europeans have always been optimistic in that if they see something they like they are very likely to have it included where we least expect it. Please give some credit and intelligence to the rest of us that read this forum that we will investigate areas we have an interest in or ask a specific question if need be.

I find the reverse far more fascinating that horses that have proven and desired European bloodlines are registered with registries such as the AWS and AWR. Surely if this registry was such a joke why in Gods green earth would anyone with stallions carrying such lines even want to be associated with a registry that has such a reputation. Yes I also realize many will also be approved in other registries but why bother with the "lower" ranked (according to some) AWR and AWS (I personally do not see the AWR or AWS as "lower" ranked, just different).

From my viewpoint there must be something that these owners ( mare and stallion) see that will be of benefit to them. Maybe they see an fledgling organization that has yet to grow and want their breeding lines to be included in the ground floor? I am also not referring to the ones that are registered but the ones that are APPROVED BREEDING stock.

[tri]

Despite the cackling and brooms whirling around, the fact is that Cooldanz is fully approved with the Oldenburg registry and is still a stallion and Victory Gallop is fully approved with the BWP as well as being a licensed breeding stallion in the highest standing with the BWP. No tap dancing here. I 'm sure that won't have any effect to those same posters who continue to stick their heads in the sand so they can't hear their little bubble bursting.

[tri]

Freedom, for me personally, I use the AWR though I would not hesitate to use the AWS. My foundation mare is KWPN - presented, branded and in the main mare book. She has also been approved BWP and Oldenburg. Her dam who I owned until her death last year was imported from Holland and is Keur. Her sire was imported from Oldenburg and even has an offspring on the ground who went to the Olympics. Both of these mares competed at some of the highest levels of jumping and I have the 3rd generation in the show ring and some with foals on the ground.

One of my good friends took all her hanoverian mares to the AWR and some to the AWS. These are all top hanoverian mares -some imported, some who competed at Dressage at Devon with very good placings. One of these mares had produced the highest scoring colt at an AHS inspection and a highest scoring filly at an AHS inspection - now all AWR or AWS.

None of the mares mentioned here had any non-traditional blood whatsoever anywhere in their pedigree. A couple had a TB mare back in there about 3 generations back. All were proven performance horses competing - mine in jumpers in the GP rings or higher - hers in the jumper rings and a few in dressage.

You are 100% right in that people see the quality. There is a waiting list for young stock.

[DownYonder]

Despite the cackling and brooms whirling around, the fact is that Cooldanz is fully approved with the Oldenburg registry and is still a stallion..

Kathy, Kathy, Kathy. I really cannot believe you are so insistant in putting that kind of spin on the situation. You know as well as I do that when the vast majority of sport horse breeders hear the term "fully approved", they are going to assume you mean APPROVED FOR BREEDING.

Cooldanz is NOT approved by Oldenburg. He isn't even REGISTERED with Oldenburg. He is registered with ISR/ONA - which, and I repeat - IS NOT THE SAME AS OLDENBURG!!

Please stop trying to infer that he is an approved Oldenburg stallion!!

[Horsecrazy27]

Kathy, Kathy, Kathy. I really cannot believe you are so insistant in putting that kind of spin on the situation. You know as well as I do that when the vast majority of sport horse breeders hear the term "fully approved", they are going to assume you mean APPROVED FOR BREEDING.

Cooldanz is NOT approved by Oldenburg. He isn't even REGISTERED with Oldenburg. He is registered with ISR/ONA - which, and I repeat - IS NOT THE SAME AS OLDENBURG!!

Please stop trying to infer that he is an approved Oldenburg stallion!!

So, the Oldenburgs approved 20 years ago with the ONLY Oldenburg registery in the USA are not Oldenburgs? I have Oldenburg papers on my Olendburgs---they don't say "Oldenburg NA"?

[siegi b.]

Youre absolutely right, Horsecrazy..... your horses are most likely Olendburgs! :-) :-)

[DownYonder]

So, the Oldenburgs approved 20 years ago with the ONLY Oldenburg registery in the USA are not Oldenburgs? I have Oldenburg papers on my Olendburgs---they don't say "Oldenburg NA"?

Never said that. Cooldanz was born in 2002 and registered with ISR/ONA, long after it ceased to be the N.A. licensee of the Oldenburg Verband.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Actually the US courts decided that the ISR/OLD NA are Oldenburgs.

[KitterCritter]

So I looked up the AWS approved stallions. Really not much information on the majority of the stallions – no pedigree, no photo, no background, no contact info (I’m not seeing this as really helpful from a mare owner’s perspective) ...

A small percentage have photo / info – few seem to have actual under-saddle performance.

Here’s what the website says re: the classifications

"Elite = Horses that have Proven Sport Horse Bloodlines for many generations?
Supreme = Horses that have outstanding (80% +) AWS Inspection scores?
Nominated = Horses that are 100% Hot-blood (Arabian or Thoroughbred)"

So, if I am interpreting this correctly (and Tri … please be the first to jump in here) an AWS stallion merely needs “Proven Sport Horse Bloodlines for many generations” to be classified as Elite ??? Nothing else required?

Yep, I can see how this is getting us ahead in the international competition field.

[Touchstone Farm]

Tri wrote, "There is no good reason for Americans to be supporting a foreign breeding entity. They may like them, admire them, learn from them, buy from them, but why give the entire U.S. sporthorse breeding industry over to them? It is completely beyond logical reason and destructive to building our own industry."

I hate to even ask but my curiosity is obviously getting the best of me (I am conveniently forgetting the cliche about curiosity killing the cat)...but how is my supporting, for example, the Hanoverian Society illogical and destructive? And writing that someone like me supporting the AHS is "completely beyond logical reason and destructive" is such a non-bashing statement! :-) Wowsa. Personally I think I have a lot of good reasons.

[~Freedom~]

So I looked up the AWS approved stallions. Really not much information on the majority of the stallions – no pedigree, no photo, no background, no contact info (I’m not seeing this as really helpful from a mare owner’s perspective) ...

A small percentage have photo / info – few seem to have actual under-saddle performance.

Here’s what the website says re: the classifications

"Elite = Horses that have Proven Sport Horse Bloodlines for many generations?
Supreme = Horses that have outstanding (80% +) AWS Inspection scores?
Nominated = Horses that are 100% Hot-blood (Arabian or Thoroughbred)"

So, if I am interpreting this correctly (and Tri … please be the first to jump in here) an AWS stallion merely needs “Proven Sport Horse Bloodlines for many generations” to be classified as Elite ??? Nothing else required?

Yep, I can see how this is getting us ahead in the international competition field.

I think it is more than that and your interpretation is missing something . I am guessing you were looking at the stallion page where they list all the approved stallions.

The ones you cannot see any more info on I believe were not listed in the auction they have every year so were not linked to any website. What I find interesting is the star feature. So from what is stated the stallion with the stars after their name are the ones best looked at as those stars are awarded for performance..

[KitterCritter]

I quoted the "Elite, Supreme and Nominated" directly from the AWS site. What's to miss or (mis)interpret from that?

Duh ... as a mare owner I would look at the stallion page on the site ... is there somewhere else to look on the site for information on the stallions?

So only those stallions who were in the auction have links (not many)? Kind of leaves those boys not in the auction out of the running and marketing.

I would like to actually see something in writing about each stallion (not just a "star") as my definition of "performance" may differ from others.

[Horsecrazy27]

So I looked up the AWS approved stallions. Really not much information on the majority of the stallions – no pedigree, no photo, no background, no contact info (I’m not seeing this as really helpful from a mare owner’s perspective) ...

A small percentage have photo / info – few seem to have actual under-saddle performance.

Here’s what the website says re: the classifications

"Elite = Horses that have Proven Sport Horse Bloodlines for many generations?
Supreme = Horses that have outstanding (80% +) AWS Inspection scores?
Nominated = Horses that are 100% Hot-blood (Arabian or Thoroughbred)"

So, if I am interpreting this correctly (and Tri … please be the first to jump in here) an AWS stallion merely needs “Proven Sport Horse Bloodlines for many generations” to be classified as Elite ??? Nothing else required?

Yep, I can see how this is getting us ahead in the international competition field.
The following qualified "Approved For Breeding" Stallions represent only 3% of the registered AWS horses. The AWS encourages all owners to have their talented stallions & mares "Approved for Breeding" by simply completing the ."Approved for Breeding" requirements. The AWS hopes all breeders will consider using these top AWS Stallions for –

"Breeding Best to Best, Like to Like"
* (front of name) - Foaled outside USA
/*/*/*/*/*/ (after name) - 5-Star rated Performance & Breeding

Underlined stallion names are linked to their information (either directly to their websites or through the Stallion Service Auction

Elite = Horses that have Proven Sport Horse Bloodlines for many generations
Supreme = Horses that have outstanding (80% +) AWS Inspection scores
Nominated = Horses that are 100% Hot-blood (Arabian or Thoroughbred

A FLASH OF BRILLANCE
'A JAMAIS /*/*/ / / / – Supreme (Deceased)
ADELSSOHN – Elite
ADVERSARY – Nominated (10/08)
AEGYPT /*/ / / / / – Elite & Supreme
AF PISKO HUNKA – Supreme
ALEUTIAN – Elite
ALEXANDER /*/ / / / /
ALTEMUS /*/ / / / / – Elite
*AMERDROS /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme (10/08)
AMERICAN STEELE
*AMETHYST – Elite
ANTHEM /*/*/ / / / – Nominated (10/08)
*ARGENSOHN – Elite
ARGO /*/*/ / / / (10/08)
*ART DECO – Elite
*ASLAN – Elite (Deceased)
ATAHUAL-PA (ATA BOY)
BALTA' CZAR – Elite
*BARD MR.BELEVEDERE
BASHO /*/*/ / / /
BASKOS STARBURST /*/*/ / / / (Deceased)
BFF IN DISGUISE /*/*/*/ / /
*BLONDER HANS /*/ / / / / – Elite (10/08)
BOY OH BOY
BRUFIRE – Nominated
BURLEIGH MCDUFF (Deceased)
CALYPSO /*/*/ / / /
CAPRYO /*/ / / / / – Elite
*CATHERSTON DAZZLER / / /*/ / /
*CATHERSTON LIBERATOR /*/ /*/ / /
CHANT DE PAIX /*/*/*/*/ /
CIMARRON /*/*/ / / / – Elite
*CING CAMP GILLETTE Z /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
COLOURED GOLD BAR (Deceased)
*CORRCULLEN – Elite & Supreme
COTTONWOOD FLAME – Nominated (Deceased)
CZAR'S LEGEND – Elite
*DAMBRETS – Elite (Deceased)
*DANCING LITE /*/*/ / / /
DAPPER DAN /*/ / / / / Elite (deceased)
DAS NUREYEV TANZ – Elite & Supreme
DELUX BLACK TUX
DEPUTED DUKE /*/ / / / / – Nominated
DERVATIW GWYDDION+/ /*/ / / / / – Nominated
DEUTSCHMARK – Elite
*DIAMOND DVE 330 – Elite
DOMINICK /*/*/ / / / – Elite
DONARWEISS GGF /*/*/ / / / – Elite
*DONNERLUCK /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
*DONNERMEYER /*/ / /*/ / – Elite (10/08)
*DRAGONS VALOUR DARTAGNON /*/ / / / /
*DREITAKT /*/ / /*/ / – Elite
*DUTCH GOLD / / /*/ / /
EPIC LEAP – Nominated
*ESBJERG GS – Elite
*E-STHETICS WIDOR / /*/*/ / / – Elite
*EUROPE /*/*/ / / / – Elite
EVANS PROVIDENCE OF THE NIGHT /*/ / / / / – Pony
EVEREST
FABERGE JUWEL MACHEN /*/ / / / / – Elite
FEUERTANZER /*/ / / / / – Elite
FLIGHT TIME GOLD
FOR UTAH TOO /*/ / / / /
FOREST DANCER /*/*/*/ / /
FORSYTHE'S FATE – Nominated
FORTUNE HUNTER /*/*/ /*/ / – Elite & Supreme (10/08)
FRIAR TUCK
*FUERST GOTTHARD /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
FUERST GRAYHEART R /*/ / / / / – Elite
FUNQUEST ERICK – Supreme
G WALKABOUT /*/*/ / / / – Elite (10/08)
GAUGIN DU CHEVAL 9054 /*/*/ / / / – Elite
*GERONIMO /*/ / / / / – Elite
*GLUCKSPIEL – Elite
GO GREY BEAU /*/ / / / / – Nominated
GOLD COAST /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
GRANDEZINE /*/ / / / /– Elite
GUARDIAN /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
H.Q. OUT RIGGER /*/*/ / / / – Elite
HADRIAN – Elite & Supreme (10/08)
HALL OF FAME – Elite
*HAPPY HOUR /*/*/ / / / – Elite
HAVLIN+/ – Nominated
HE'S TRUE BLUE /*/*/ / / / – Pony & Supreme (10/08)
HERU – Nominated
HIDEAWAY'S ERIN GO BRAGH
HIGH KICK
HIGH RESOLUTION / /*/*/ / /
*HOHOTT /*/ / / / /
IMPRESSIONIST – Elite & Supreme
INDEPEN-DANCE /*/*/ / / /
INDIAN ART /*/*/ / / /
INF THE CATALYST /*/*/ / / / – Pony & Nominated
*IRONMAN / /*/ / / / – Elite
*ISOS /*/*/ / / / – Elite
J.B.'S RAZZY TORNADO
JUMPIN JAK FLASH /*/ / / / / – Nominated
KAESON'S SIR WINSTON – Supreme (Retired)
KALLIGRAPHY /*/*/ / / /
*KING (Gelded)
*KIROW H /*/*/ / / /– Elite & Supreme
*KOSAKE – Elite
KRESHENDO – Elite
KRUSADER – Elite
LAITIN /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
*LANCASTER /*/*/ /*/ / Elite & Supreme
*LANCITANO /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
LANDAVI – Elite
*LANDKONIG – Elite
LANDONN I /*/ / / / / – Elite
LAUTREC /*/ / / / / – Elite
*LAVITA – Elite
LE CAVALIER – Elite
*LE ROI /*/ / / / / – Elite
LEGADO DE FUEGO – Elite
LEGION VF – Nominated
LEISURELY WATCH – Nominated
LG TEMPRANO – Nominated
*LIBERO STAR /*/*/ / / / - Elite
LIL'AB
*LIO CALYON – Elite
*LJIBBES VALOUR /*/*/ / / /
*MAGIC KIROW H /*/*/ / / /
MANAHAWK /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
MARQUEE – Elite & Supreme - Deceased (10/08)
*MASSTAB – Nominated
MATISSE /*/*/ /*/ / – Elite
MAXIMILIAN'S LEGACY /*/ / / / / – Elite
MEIN KLEIN KLAASE (LINCOLN) /*/ / / / /
MOSES – Supreme (Deceased)
MYSTIC SUNDANCE /*/*/ / / / (Retired)
MYSTIC TYME /*/*/ / / / – Elite (Deceased)
NAMUR – Elite & Supreme
NAVARRE /*/*/ / / /
NEVADA /*/*/ /*/ / – Elite (10/08)
NEVER BEND BETTER / /*/ / / / – Nominated
NICHOLAS / /*/ / / / – Elite (Deceased)
NIMBUS /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
NOB HILL / / / /*/ /
OBERON /*/ / / / /
*ODIN – Elite
*OLEANDER /*/*/*/ / / – Elite
*OMAN – Nominated (Deceased)
OTB AURYAN /*/ / / / / – Nominated
OUR SIR LANCELOT /*/*/ / / /
P.S. MARQUIS DE SADE – Elite
*PABLITO – Elite
*PATRICK /*/*/ / / / – Elite (10/08)
PIABORALLIS – Elite & Supreme
PIK PANACHE
PIKOR (Deceased)
*POWER PLAY /*/*/ / / / - Pony & Supreme
*PRADO /*/ / / / / – Elite (10/08)
PREFERRED STATUS /*/ / / / / – Nominated (Decreased)
*PRESLEY (PATRICK) /*/*/ / / / – Elite
PRF IMPERIAL BLACK REX/*/*/*/*/ / – Supreme
*PRIMMORE'S PIONEER / / /*/ / /
PRIVAT DANCER /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
*PUERTO D'AZUR – Elite
*PYATT CHARLY – Elite (Deceased)
RACHMANINOV /*/*/ / / / – Elite (10/08)
*RAFFINO STAR /*/ / / / / - Elite
RAVEL /*/*/*/ / / – Elite (10/08)
*RAZENI STAR (Deceased)
REALITY / /*/ / / / – Elite
RED CLAY TRIBUTARY /*/ / / / /
REIGN /*/ / / / /
RESERO – Elite
RHOQUEST /*/ / / / / – Elite (Deceased)
RIDLEY /*/ / / / / – Elite (10/08)
ROCKETMAN
*ROCKMAN – Elite (10/08)
ROGALA DEBONAIR+ /*/ / / / / – Nominated (10/08)
*ROMANTIC STAR /*/*/ /* / / - Elite & Supreme
*RUBAIYAT – Elite (10/08)
S. H. DECOUPAGE
SALTO /*/ / / / / – Elite(10/08)
*SANTANA /*/*/ /*/ / – Elite & Supreme
SAVANT – Elite
SAX GOLD DUST /*/ / / / /
SECRETLY REGAL
*SILBERPFIEL – Elite
SKANDANCER /*/ / / / / – Nominated
SODALIS
SPANISH PARADE / / /*/ / / - Elite
SPARLOCK /*/*/*/ / / – Supreme
SPECTRUM – Elite
SPRINGSTEEN ROCK AYERS (Retired)
SPRUCE MTN VIKING
*STANHOPES DIDDICOY / / /*/ / /
STATESMAN SILHOUETTE
*SUPER STAR /*/ / / / / – Elite
SYMBOL /*/*/*/*/*/ – Elite (Retired)
SYNCHRONICITY /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme (10/08)
TA'EZ /*/*/*/ / / – Nominated (Retired)
TEMERARIO VII / /*/ / / /
TF PERONS BRILLANCE – Supreme
THE SPOTLIGHT – Supreme
THUNDERING ZEUS /*/ / / / / (Retired)
TINARIWEN /*/ / / / /
*TROIKA'S MACHIAVELLI H /*/*/ / / /
TUDORS DIAMOND JIM
TUNE OF KADRON-KASEYN /*/ / / / / – Nominated (10/08)
*U. AVENIR – Elite
*URI
*VAL H /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
*VIRTUOSO – Elite
*WALIANO /*/*/ / / / - Elite & Supreme
WALKABOUT /*/*/ / / / – Supreme (10/08)
WATCH ME – Elite
*WAY OUT WEST /*/*/ / / /
*WB SHAQUILLE / /*/ / / /
*WELT HIT STAR /*/*/ / / / – Elite & Supreme
WELT MARKE – Elite
*WERBELLIN /*/*/*/*/ / – Elite
*WINNETOU /*/*/ /*/ / – Elite & Supreme
WOLKENZAUBER / /*/ /*/ /
*WOTAN VON WOLKENSTEIN II /*/ / / / / – Elite
YOUNG FLEET / /*/*/ /*/ (Deceased)
*ZEUS – Elite
*ZORRO /*/*/*/ / / – (10/08)

Requirements for Registration, Nomination or Recording
(as of 2-27-08)


Guidelines for Registration, Nomination or Recording. (Click here for Registration Forms)
All AWS sport horses/ponies may be evaluated on their own qualities and/or performance records. Hot-bloods, cold-bloods, warmbloods and all crosses are eligible, previously registered (see Recording below) or non-registered as long as the horse/pony is breeding for, training for, or participating in one of the four disciplines that the AWS supports (Dressage, Eventing, Jumping or Combined Driving). Minimum size is 13.0hh (can be waived with proof of performance - required prior to registration).

Eligibility for Registration
To be eligible for registration a horse/pony can be of any breed stock or combination thereof, except 100% hot- blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds). (see Nomination below).

Eligibility for Nomination
To be eligible for nomination a horse/pony can be 100% hot-blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds). All AWS benefits are the same as registered warmbloods.

Eligibility for Recording
To be eligible for recording the horse/pony has been previously registered with another registry. All AWS benefits are the same as registered warmbloods.

Types of Books
The Main Book, Pony Book and Elite Book (see below) are maintained by the National Office for all registered, nominated and recorded horses. Registration, Nomination or Recording is for the lifetime of the horse/pony.

Main Book
For Main Book registered, nominated or recorded horses/ponies pedigree history is desirable, but not required. Main Book horses/ponies qualify through their own performance.

Elite Book
For Elite Book registered, nominated or recorded horses/ponies pedigree/bloodline history is required. This history must provide evidence of four generations of proven, documented sport horse/pony performance in one of the four sports supported by the AWS (see guidelines above). The horse/pony that is to be registered is automatically included in the four generations. DNA testing is required for all Elite Book Horses.

Sport Pony Book
Equine 14.2 hands or under will be in the Sport Pony Book. Ponies will receive separate year end awards for national in-hand and inspections.


Registration, Nomination or Recording Procedures to Register, Nominate or Record a Horse/Pony in the AWS the owner must:


Provide a completed application for registration, nomination or recording. Include all known family history, as this could qualify your horse/pony for the Elite Book. This application form must be completed following the instructions. For information not known the completed application should state "unknown". Registration fee must be included with application.

Become a current AWS member. All owners, riders or representatives of registered, nominated or recorded horses/ponies must become current AWS members.

Provide DNA testing fee or a, b or c below.
Enclose completed Breeding/Covering Certificate. (This is documenting the Sire and Dam of the horse to be Registered, Nominated or Recorded).

Enclose copy of previous Registration papers. (if horse is previously registered with another Association).

Provide DNA Case Number. (If horse was previously DNA tested).

Provide the qualifying performance score copies or documents from any of the following:
Recognized USEF Sport Horse/Pony In-Hand class (any age)- 62% - (unrestricted Breed Classes, other than AWS).

Dressage - training level or higher - 62% - USEF Recognized Classes (unrestricted Breed Classes).

Eventing - 55 penalties maximum dressage test at any level, without elimination or retirement or withdrawal at an USEF recognized event.

Combined Driving - same criteria as Eventing (above) except at Preliminary level at USEF recogized event.

Show Jumping - Placing 1st - 15th in an USEF recognized class

Recognized Sport Horse Breed Registry Inspection - 62%

AWS scores from minimum of three (3) offspring that have passed the performance requirements and are registered with the AWS will satisfy performance requirements for the sire or dam.

or–

A "Pending" Certificate of Registration will be sent, if you can not satisfy any one of the above (item #4) qualifiers at registration time. The horse has it's lifetime to satisfy one of the above performance requirements. The "Pending" Certificate of Registration proves all registration fees have been paid and contains:

horse/pony pedigree information
performance requirements, still to be satisfied
Transfer form (in case horse is sold before obtaining scores)


:)

[Fairview Horse Center]

Tri wrote, "There is no good reason for Americans to be supporting a foreign breeding entity. They may like them, admire them, learn from them, buy from them, but why give the entire U.S. sporthorse breeding industry over to them? It is completely beyond logical reason and destructive to building our own industry."

I hate to even ask but my curiosity is obviously getting the best of me (I am conveniently forgetting the cliche about curiosity killing the cat)...but how is my supporting, for example, the Hanoverian Society illogical and destructive? And writing that someone like me supporting the AHS is "completely beyond logical reason and destructive" is such a non-bashing statement! :-) Wowsa. Personally I think I have a lot of good reasons.

Here is an example of how it hurts US bred horses from my own breeding program. As a breeder, I had an "Imported" Hanoverian mare. As a seller, I will definitely use what I need to to help me market my youngsters. I put the "Imported" label on my site because I KNOW it will attract more buyers for her foals. Does it work? Absolutely. Her foals sold like hotcakes. Was she my best mare? NO. Best producing mare? NO.

How does it hurt? By me using that label, it announced to the world that SHE was extra special, and therefore her foals were extra special. Because, doncha know that IMPORTED is SO much better. I use other labels too, Hanoverian, Dutch, Belgian, Westfalen. Why do we use these labels? Because it makes others think they are more special than if they were just plain ole American.

People want to think imported products are better, wine, chocolate, etc. They want bragging rights. Do our wineries advertise that they use only the finest Italian/French etc grapes? Do our chocolatiers say they are using the finest Belgian recipes?

If I as a BREEDER am saying to the world that I think they are extra special because THEY are <insert other country label>, how am I supposed to convince buyers that "other country horses" are NOT better? Why should the buyers come to me when they can go to the "better" more "special" place and get that "imported, other country label" for themselves?

So in the long run, I hurt myself.

[KitterCritter]

Horsecrazy --- your copying from the AWS site did not enlighten me further - I already saw that. You just made the point - no info on a majority of the stallions and only "approved generations" needed for "Elite" classification.

Were you trying to make some other point?

[Horsecrazy27]

Tri wrote, "There is no good reason for Americans to be supporting a foreign breeding entity. They may like them, admire them, learn from them, buy from them, but why give the entire U.S. sporthorse breeding industry over to them? It is completely beyond logical reason and destructive to building our own industry."

I hate to even ask but my curiosity is obviously getting the best of me (I am conveniently forgetting the cliche about curiosity killing the cat)...but how is my supporting, for example, the Hanoverian Society illogical and destructive? And writing that someone like me supporting the AHS is "completely beyond logical reason and destructive" is such a non-bashing statement! :-) Wowsa. Personally I think I have a lot of good reasons.

I see supporting another country's finances--in this time and day, may be what she is talking about. That is my thoughts---something that crosses my mind often.

[Horsecrazy27]

Horsecrazy --- your copying from the AWS site did not enlighten me further - I already saw that. You just made the point - no info on a majority of the stallions and only "approved generations" needed for "Elite" classification.

Were you trying to make some other point?

Guidelines for Registration, Nomination or Recording. (Click here for Registration Forms)
All AWS sport horses/ponies may be evaluated on their own qualities and/or performance records. Hot-bloods, cold-bloods, warmbloods and all crosses are eligible, previously registered (see Recording below) or non-registered as long as the horse/pony is breeding for, training for, or participating in one of the four disciplines that the AWS supports (Dressage, Eventing, Jumping or Combined Driving). Minimum size is 13.0hh (can be waived with proof of performance - required prior to registration).

Eligibility for Registration
To be eligible for registration a horse/pony can be of any breed stock or combination thereof, except 100% hot- blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds). (see Nomination below).

Eligibility for Nomination
To be eligible for nomination a horse/pony can be 100% hot-blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds). All AWS benefits are the same as registered warmbloods.

Eligibility for Recording
To be eligible for recording the horse/pony has been previously registered with another registry. All AWS benefits are the same as registered warmbloods.

Types of Books
The Main Book, Pony Book and Elite Book (see below) are maintained by the National Office for all registered, nominated and recorded horses. Registration, Nomination or Recording is for the lifetime of the horse/pony.

Main Book
For Main Book registered, nominated or recorded horses/ponies pedigree history is desirable, but not required. Main Book horses/ponies qualify through their own performance.

Elite Book
For Elite Book registered, nominated or recorded horses/ponies pedigree/bloodline history is required. This history must provide evidence of four generations of proven, documented sport horse/pony performance in one of the four sports supported by the AWS (see guidelines above). The horse/pony that is to be registered is automatically included in the four generations. DNA testing is required for all Elite Book Horses.

Sport Pony Book
Equine 14.2 hands or under will be in the Sport Pony Book. Ponies will receive separate year end awards for national in-hand and inspections.


Registration, Nomination or Recording Procedures to Register, Nominate or Record a Horse/Pony in the AWS the owner must:


Provide a completed application for registration, nomination or recording. Include all known family history, as this could qualify your horse/pony for the Elite Book. This application form must be completed following the instructions. For information not known the completed application should state "unknown". Registration fee must be included with application.

Become a current AWS member. All owners, riders or representatives of registered, nominated or recorded horses/ponies must become current AWS members.

Provide DNA testing fee or a, b or c below.
Enclose completed Breeding/Covering Certificate. (This is documenting the Sire and Dam of the horse to be Registered, Nominated or Recorded).

Enclose copy of previous Registration papers. (if horse is previously registered with another Association).

Provide DNA Case Number. (If horse was previously DNA tested).

Provide the qualifying performance score copies or documents from any of the following:
Recognized USEF Sport Horse/Pony In-Hand class (any age)- 62% - (unrestricted Breed Classes, other than AWS).

Dressage - training level or higher - 62% - USEF Recognized Classes (unrestricted Breed Classes).

Eventing - 55 penalties maximum dressage test at any level, without elimination or retirement or withdrawal at an USEF recognized event.

Combined Driving - same criteria as Eventing (above) except at Preliminary level at USEF recogized event.

Show Jumping - Placing 1st - 15th in an USEF recognized class

Recognized Sport Horse Breed Registry Inspection - 62%

AWS scores from minimum of three (3) offspring that have passed the performance requirements and are registered with the AWS will satisfy performance requirements for the sire or dam.

or–

A "Pending" Certificate of Registration will be sent, if you can not satisfy any one of the above (item #4) qualifiers at registration time. The horse has it's lifetime to satisfy one of the above performance requirements. The "Pending" Certificate of Registration proves all registration fees have been paid and contains:

horse/pony pedigree information
performance requirements, still to be satisfied
Transfer form (in case horse is sold before obtaining scores)

[~Freedom~]

So only those stallions who were in the auction have links (not many)? Kind of leaves those boys not in the auction out of the running and marketing.

I would like to actually see something in writing about each stallion (not just a "star") as my definition of "performance" may differ from others.

If a breeder chooses to not go through the yearly auction I don't think we should hold that against them. Many breeders in other registries choose to not use their registries auctions for various reasons.

This this the star program I was referring to.-----

Recognizing the most talented AWS Horses/Ponies that qualify for these award certificates and Stars after the Horses/Ponies names. 5-Star Program required for all "Approved for Breeding" stallions and mares.

The 5-Star Recognition System is for the most talented registered, recorded or nominated sport horses/ponies in both the Main and Elite Books. All horses/ponies can earn up to 5 stars following their name to recognize their superior qualities and talents. These accumulated stars can be earned, in any order, always following the name of the horse/pony (i.e. American Promise /*/*/ /*/ /). The stars represent the following achievements:

1st star /*/ / / / / - Inspection or Sport Horse In-Hand Classes
The horse/pony must obtain a 75% as an overall score at a recognized USEF Sport Horse In-Hand (unrestricted breed) class, or 75% at a recognized Sport Horse Inspection with no score of five (5) or less.
2nd star / /* / / / / - Regional or National AWS Wins

The horse/pony must win an AWS Regional (Dressage) Championship, AWS Area (Eventing) Championship or AWS USDFBC Championship Final (In-Hand) or place AWS 1st-3rd Nationally.
3rd star / / /*/ / / - High Performance
The horse/pony must complete one of the following


Compete at any USEF National Young Horse Championship (for AWS recognized sports)
Obtain at least five 60% scores (or equivalency) from at least three different competitions at the FEI level
4th star / / / /*/ / - Foal Conformation
Same as 1st Star above with


Stallions - at least seven (7) registered AWS offspring
Mares - at least three (3) registered AWS offspring
5th star / / / / /*/ - Foal Performance
Same as 3rd Star above with

Stallions - at least seven (7) registered AWS offspring
Mares - at least three (3) registered AWS offspring


So if there is that second or third star then that negates your previous post about..few seem to have actual under-saddle performance. as they had to have been ridden to even get that recognition. So as I said when you look at a registry in a cursory manner you will miss things.

[KitterCritter]

Freedom, my comment regarding under-saddle performance was with regard to those stallions who actually have links. Most other registry websites do not limit their links to full stallion info only to those stallions whose owners have offered them in an auction.

Looking at the star system as you posted, I would not consider highly the 2nd star ... and again few of the stallions have a star in the 3rd position - and knowing some of the stallions, I would question the 3rd star for a couple of them.

So, yes, for me, from the information provided, little under-saddle performance and, again, the "elite" designation is specifically on pedigree.

Forgive me for going to the AWS site to learn more about specific stallions.

[Horsecrazy27]

I think it may be because it is a "non-profit" orgainzation. (links) Some of these people may not pay annual membership fee's.

:)

[~Freedom~]

Freedom, my comment regarding under-saddle performance was with regard to those stallions who actually have links.


Well golly gosh I picked up on one without a link, has 4 stars and simply googled it. What a shame it was so much work for me. There is also no ELITE or SUPREME beside his name either.

http://mobilehorsesupply.com/chant%20de%20paix.htm

Personally I know someone that has an approved AWS stallion and when people dismiss all the work and effort they spend to promote their horse, the money invested when there are people out there that phoo haw it like you I just tell myself that thankfully I have a gelding so that I don't have to interact with people like you.

[KitterCritter]

Freedom - I believe the registry should provide information on its approved stallions; as a mare owner, I'm not going to spend all day Googling each name on the list. If the registry only "promotes" the stallions who participate in the auction, what does that say about them (to me anyway)?

The stallion you linked presumably could not be Elite due to lack of pedigree on the dam's side - the dam is not a registered TB under that name. I have no knowledge whether he could be Supreme as there is no info on the AWS stallion page re: his AWS inspection scores. He seems to be working on a nice career in eventing - good for him!

It is difficult for anyone to stand and promote a stallion in this country as there are so very many of them and only so many mares. I'm just trying to point out that the AWS could be doing a better job (in my mind) of promoting its approved stallions by having full pedigrees / photos / performance records / offspring records, etc. Maybe your friend has an awesome AWS stallion - looking at the site and the few stallions linked, I'm guessing I didn't see him there. In no way did I dismiss "all the work and effort" stallion owners spend to promote their horses - but shouldn't the registry help if the owner has paid their dues?

I will reiterate that, for me, the fact that a stallion has a sport horse pedigree does not make him "elite" in my book. To each his own there and if that is how AWS is doing it and you're happy with it, then good.

I only looked at the AWS site (stallion page) as a result of this thread and the supporters saying how terrific the registry is. I was disappointed in the lack of readily available information on the approved stallions. The lack of info is pretty much indisputable.

[MagicRoseFarm]

um i may be wrong , but I believe the AWS does not charge annual stallion dues,,, what association that does that updates their info without a request from the owner?

I think the idea of a donated auction is their way of promoting those who promote the registry, so they SHOULD be the ones getting additional promotional effort..just like other Associations charge annual stallion dues to include the stallions in the directory( or even allow them breeding rights for the year)....

I find it to be a very interesting sorting method, rather forward thinking.. and quite democratically American....

[~Freedom~]

Maybe your friend has an awesome AWS stallion - looking at the site and the few stallions linked, I'm guessing I didn't see him there. In no way did I dismiss "all the work and effort" stallion owners spend to promote their horses - but shouldn't the registry help if the owner has paid their dues?

He is there but like the one I linked to is not Elite nor has a link to him. Most of the ones that have Elite are approved in other registries with full pedigrees ( the very reason for the Elite status) and even though they may still go through all the same inspections awards etc they have a "leg up" so to speak as they are probably imported. This is why I asked in a previous post what made them (the Elite ones) go to that registry when they obviously didn't need to.

As far as you not liking some of them, well if we all liked the same thing life would be very boring and something you may not like could be the right match to another mare.

I will reiterate that, for me, the fact that a stallion has a sport horse pedigree does not make him "elite" in my book. To each his own there and if that is how AWS is doing it and you're happy with it, then good.

Again the "Elite" status is simply because they have a proven pedigree that if you looked at it would probably show proven European breeding in most cases. The Supreme title is simply because that stallion not only passed the inspection but did with a better than required score ( required 75%//Supreme = 80%).

I only looked at the AWS site (stallion page) as a result of this thread and the supporters saying how terrific the registry is. I was disappointed in the lack of readily available information on the approved stallions. The lack of info is pretty much indisputable.

My own gelding is AWS and I know for a fact that they operate on limited funds and I also know that they try to be as fair as possible by NOT promoting any one horse over another. I believe that if a stallion owner wants a link to their website it can be done so don't blame the registry--blame the stallion owner. On the stallion auction part of the benefit the AWS gives by participating is a link to the information GIVEN to them by the stallion owner and is only the information that is put in the auction brochure--not the stallions website.

[DownYonder]

Actually the US courts decided that the ISR/OLD NA are Oldenburgs.

U.S. courts make idiotic decisions every day. This case was one of them.

ISR/ONA horses may have legal use the name and brand, but they are not considered by the Verband office in Germany to be the same as Verband Oldenburgs.

Regarding AWS - is this a privately owned organization?

[pinecone]

Let's see if I'm understanding this, it's been a long thread-

At one point, people imply American Warmbloods are crap because they're Heinz 57's or because they might have QH, Paint, or Morgan breeding. Then the Elite Book comes up, because it requires 4 generations of proven sporthorse pedigree (which would essentially rule out QH, Paint, Morgan, and any other non sport Heinz 57 breeding, right?), so the Elite Book should be a good thing, right? But then someone complains they don't like the Elite Book because it only recognizes a superior pedigree.

Just goes to show you can't please everyone!

IF you understand the different books, the 5 star program, the Red Preferred/Blue Preferred/Supreme designations, and the requirements for breeding approval, you'll start to see a much clearer picture of the registry. Otherwise I guess it looks like gobbledegook, but it's not the fault of the registry if people don't understand it all, right? Every Warmblood registry has different books and levels of recognition, if you're involved with that registry it makes perfect sense to you, to an outsider it may be confusing. That's with EVERY legitimate Warmblood registry, not just the AWS. Do you think "pink papers" means something to everyone? Or Premium? No, no more than Approved, Elite, Supreme */*/*/*/* means something to EVERYone. But it says a lot, once you know what it means. ;)

[siegi b.]

Darlyn - going back to your post on the previous page, I don't think I'm hurting myself by offering Dutch horses in the US. Dutch horses/bloodlines have been quite successful in the different disciplines and clients are looking for horses that will allow them to win. All of my horses have been bred in the US and I am proud to be a part of the KWPN NA family because their inspections provide the kind of quality control that I see missing in some of the other registries.

Taking my successful breeding program to one of the American registries would be financial suicide and so I'm obviously not willing to go there. I can sell my horses fairly easily these days because I have a reputation for producing good Dutch stock, so jeopardizing all that just because some folks think I should "go American" seems ridiculous, don't you think?

When my 4-year old won the FEI Young Horse Championships in Kentucky last year I got LOTS of recognition as breeder/owner of the horse and that included the "American Bred" award. There were also several articles in the various horse publications, here and overseas, that wrote about this, and again I got recognition for having bred a winner in the US. What more could anybody ask for?

[MagicRoseFarm]

Taking my successful breeding program to one of the American registries would be financial suicide and so I'm obviously not willing to go there.


Hmm I find it to be the exact opposite...

We cannot keep our American registered horses long enough to come of riding age. We are selling our youngstock ( foal to 2 year olds) for MORE than I received for many of my foreign breds, and like Darlyn, we are selling them to top dressage trainers, judges, as well as aspiring and successful amateurs. I had to buy one of Beste Gold's offspring BACK to have a riding horse for myself after he was injured.

I think I speak for many American breeders affiliated with many different Associations (or NO affiliation with any association) when I say our successes in the last few years have gotten us tons of recognition as breeder/owner in national publications as well...The major Associations/Publications ARE trying to recognize ALL NA Breeder's successes.

However, I highly doubt my American Registered horses will be published in a foreign association's newsletter/magazine like Seigi's horse was.

[talloaks]

Darlyn - going back to your post on the previous page, I don't think I'm hurting myself by offering Dutch horses in the US. Dutch horses/bloodlines have been quite successful in the different disciplines and clients are looking for horses that will allow them to win. All of my horses have been bred in the US and I am proud to be a part of the KWPN NA family because their inspections provide the kind of quality control that I see missing in some of the other registries.

Taking my successful breeding program to one of the American registries would be financial suicide and so I'm obviously not willing to go there. I can sell my horses fairly easily these days because I have a reputation for producing good Dutch stock, so jeopardizing all that just because some folks think I should "go American" seems ridiculous, don't you think?

When my 4-year old won the FEI Young Horse Championships in Kentucky last year I got LOTS of recognition as breeder/owner of the horse and that included the "American Bred" award. There were also several articles in the various horse publications, here and overseas, that wrote about this, and again I got recognition for having bred a winner in the US. What more could anybody ask for?


Of course Siegi, you will get recognition from your overseas publications. You are constantly using frozen semen from the EU so naturally their interest in promoting your success would be for more sales of the frozen semen. Its really quite obvious.

[canticle]

What's the point of breeding "American Warmbloods" if you are not going to take advantage of our wonderful native breeds? If you don't want American blood in your WB, then stick with a European WB. There's nothing wrong with that. But many people have a different vision and shouldn't be criticized for their success.

[pintopiaffe]

But then someone complains they don't like the Elite Book because it only recognizes a superior pedigree

Ah... but here again we're equating "superior" with European...

Just being difficult (with a grin and a wink) because some of us love WBs, but don't necessarily think they are superior to the Morgans, Arabs & ASBs and Paints--especially the exceptional, sporthorse ones. :lol:

I'm not actually one who has ever posted regarding it... but I do use American bloodlines AND Trakehner, Old, etc. The juxtaposition in the post just made me grin and have to be feisty about it. :winkgrin:

I really, really in my heart think that "Warmblood" is part of the issue. Where is the American SPORTHORSE Registry? I'm not saying we need another--I'm saying that I agree totally that some of the AWS--even approved for breeding--horses are NOT Warmbloods with a capital "W". But there's no doubt they are SPORTHORSES.

[pintopiaffe]

posting at the same time as canticle and agree completely. ;)

[YankeeLawyer]

Of course Siegi, you will get recognition from your overseas publications. You are constantly using frozen semen from the EU so naturally their interest in promoting your success would be for more sales of the frozen semen. Its really quite obvious.

That comment is fairly absurd, though I am not quite sure of the point you are trying to make other than to take a swipe at a fellow U.S. breeder who actually has managed to produce horses that are winning not just in inspections but also in performance classes against the best in their age group.

The use of frozen semen in the United States does not make the resulting foals any less "U.S. bred", and favorable coverage of these youngsters in foreign publications is only positive for U.S. breeding programs, even if incidentally such coverage also promotes the foreign-based stallion in question. The point is, buyers can find foals in the U.S. of comparable quality and identical bloodlines to those in Europe, in some cases.

And thankfully, that is so. I have imported mares and foals, and I have also found and purchased U.S. bred horses of comparable quality and lineage. I personally am thrilled that I can continue to build on and improve my breeding program with the addition of horses bred here, particularly given the current exorbitant costs involved with importing due to shipping fees and the exchange rate -- neither of which have anything to do with the quality of the horse, obviously. As I have said elsewhere, I have no problem paying a premium for top quality, but I have a major problem paying one that is attributable only to a weak dollar and transport costs.

With respect to comments from breeders whose American-registry (e.g. AWS) horses are selling like hotcakes, my guess is that has more to do with the quality of the individual horse and less to do with the registry per se as being a selling point. Perhaps that is the way it should be, but I do think that the point being made with respect to the European registries is that they carry a cache that itself improves marketability (because people associate these registries with quality). I do believe that a lot depends on what your market is; I know my market, and I believe that my goals for my program are consistent with what this particular market seeks. So if your program is doing well, and you are producing spectacular horses that you are proud of, it would be idiotic to change your strategy, regardless of whether you are committed to AWS, AHS, AHA, or whatever. In fact, I think that it is better for everyone if youngsters are being marketed differently. I breed primarily Hanoverians; I have a hard time seeing how it would be better for me if all of you were to choose to do the same.

[YankeeLawyer]

What's the point of breeding "American Warmbloods" if you are not going to take advantage of our wonderful native breeds? If you don't want American blood in your WB, then stick with a European WB. There's nothing wrong with that. But many people have a different vision and shouldn't be criticized for their success.

Can you please describe what you mean by "native" breeds? I am envisioning Indian Ponies, but obviously that is not what you meant. I am just curious.

[goodmorning]

Can you please describe what you mean by "native" breeds? I am envisioning Indian Ponies, but obviously that is not what you meant. I am just curious.

Misty! We have a Chincoteague pony in the barn who is seriously fabulous, sorry, the native comment got me thinking...he is really the cutest thing around :yes: And he wins everywhere, go figure :lol: :D

back to the regularly scheduled thread...:)

[YankeeLawyer]

Misty! We have a Chincoteague pony in the barn who is seriously fabulous, sorry, the native comment got me thinking...he is really the cutest thing around :yes: And he wins everywhere, go figure :lol: :D

back to the regularly scheduled thread...:)

LOL!! I am so dying to go down to Chincoteague some time for pony penning day (held every July). I am not bringing the trailer, though!

FWIW, I do believe those ponies are of Spanish origin.

[pinecone]

Interesting then- it looks as if people are divided between American Warmblood = traditional Warmbloods but bred in the USA, versus American Warmblood = warmblood or sporthorse type blend utilizing "American" breeds.

If I had the time I'd be curious about the breeding of the horses Approved for Breeding, to see if they're more in line with traditional Warmblood breeding, or if there are more with non-traditional warmblood breeding (such as using American breeds.) It's easy to tell with the Elite Book horses (see how convenient that title is when you know the meaning behind it? wink), but for the others it might take some researching since there are reasons a horse might not be Elite Book which don't necessarily mean they've got QH, Morgan, Saddlebred, etc. (I'm targeting the Approved for Breeding horses because I think they're the most indicative of where a registry is headed, and it's the most prestigious level of recognition.)

Fwiw, I've always considered the AWS to be aiming towards the first definition I offered (traditional Warmbloods but in the USA.)

[DownYonder]

Interesting then- it looks as if people are divided between American Warmblood = traditional Warmbloods but bred in the USA, versus American Warmblood = warmblood or sporthorse type blend utilizing "American" breeds.


I assume when you say "traditional Warmbloods but bred in the USA", you mean "traditional EUROPEAN-STYLE Warmbloods but bred in the USA.

I know many here will deem my words to be heresy, but I consider anything but a straight hot blood (TB, Arabian, or AA), or a straight cold blood (draft horse), to be a warmblood - of sorts. The problem is that is that most of us had never even heard the term "warmblood" before being exposed to European WBs such as German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, etc. That pretty much established the definition in most people's minds to mean a European type of warmblood, when, in essence, anything in between the traditional "hot blood" breeds and the traditional "cold blood" breeds could be considered a "warmblood."

Now are we going to get into the great semantics debate? :D

[3Dogs]

the thread that never dies :D:D

[canticle]

What breed of horse do you think this is?
http://www.amazon.com/United-States-Pony-Manual-Horsemanship/dp/0876059817

What a waste to breed "American Warmbloods" yet refuse to even consider using American breeds.

[pinecone]

Down Yonder: There's Warmblood with a W (traditional Warmbloods) and warmbloods with a w (crosses of hot/cold, etc.) ;)

[pinecone]

What a waste to breed "American Warmbloods" yet refuse to even consider using American breeds.

You could also say "what a waste to muddy the waters of a Warmblood breeding program with American breeds". ;)

I'm all for American Warmbloods, but I'm not in favor of using QH, Paint, Morgan, or whichever breeds people are considering "American". I'll stick to Warmblood and TB, thanks.

[Fairview Horse Center]

the thread that never dies :D:D

This is a LOT more fun than weeding my garden! :yes: :winkgrin:

[DownYonder]

Down Yonder: There's Warmblood with a W (traditional Warmbloods) and warmbloods with a w (crosses of hot/cold, etc.) ;)

And by "traditional", I guess you again mean "European style" - correct?

And who decreed that "W" means traditional (European style) Warmbloods? :winkgrin:

Besides, if AWR or AWS issues papers to a draft/QH cross, then isn't that a "non-traditional" Warmblood with a capital "W"? :lol:

[canticle]

:lol:You could also say "what a waste to muddy the waters of a Warmblood breeding program with American breeds". ;)

I'm all for American Warmbloods, but I'm not in favor of using QH, Paint, Morgan, or whichever breeds people are considering "American". I'll stick to Warmblood and TB, thanks.
You stick to your WB/TB warmblood hotblood crossbred, I'll stick to my traditional stocky built Morgan. Someone else will cross the two and end up with an American Warmblood. To each his own!

[canticle]

And by "traditional", I guess you again mean "European style" - correct?

And who decreed that "W" means traditional (European style) Warmbloods? :winkgrin:

Besides, if AWR or AWS issues papers to a draft/QH cross, then isn't that a "non-traditional" Warmblood with a capital "W"? :lol:
You're exactly right! :yes:

If you mean modern Euro-style Warmblood, you better say it. Warmblood means so much more than that. Somewhere along the line a group of middle aged American women decided that Europeans owned the term and the capital "W". The rest is history!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I am definitely pro using Warmbloods to cross with some QH, Morgan, Standardbred, Draft blood. Horses are not one size fits all people and uses. Breeding modern Warmbloods for the sensitivity (reactiveness) leaves many riders seeking another direction. Lately, that has been with baroque horses, including Mary Alice herself.

If American breeders can use some QH, etc blood to add the "easy going" to those big gaits and jump, the market as a whole is better served.

Yes, a few breeders will be able to tap into those FEI riders to make sales, but the rest of the breeders will be making stock that they are not high profile enough to attract that caliber of rider.

I personally can't sell my FEI prospect. He is too sensitive and has too much movement for the average amateur. People come to my barn looking for solid citizens, with talent for recognized shows. I have another FEI prospect coming along, but thankfully he also has the easy going brain.

I have a 4 year old going to his new home this week. One of the top Hunter trainers in the area has a youngster from me in training. She came back looking for another - for a KID. Something she could depend on. They tried my (then) 3 year old, and LOVED him. Unfortunately, between the 2 tryouts and the vetting, he developed a stone bruise. It has been a very difficult slightly off bruise to get healed. The buyers have hung in there with me for 3 MONTHS!!

Last week, the trainer called to tell me that if the now 4 year old is not right, to get busy breaking out my 3 year olds, and her student will buy one of those, because she has not been able to find ANYTHING during those 3 months that is suitable. For a KID. Oh my GOD, she trusts my program so much she is willing to look at what are technically still 2 year olds!!! Pinch me, am I AWAKE?!?!

This is NOT a small time trainer, but one that takes horses and students to recognized shows at least twice a month. She is also a very honest one, because I don't discount my horses, don't give the buyer's trainer a commission, and the buyer pays me direct.

I had the vet come back, and he is sound, <yea!> x-rayed clean, and is now good to go. Oh, yeah, he is a registered AWS horse. I also had another high profile hunter person (owns a big Hunter barn in MD) that told me if the original buyers didn't get him, they wanted to come ride him. She owns another one of my youngsters & knows what I am breeding.

There is a huge shortage of horses with amateur brains and talent, so you guys just keep on breeding your European approved modern stallions, and leave this market to me and mine. :D

[DownYonder]

I don't know if you can pigeonhole amateur temperament and import status like that. I have a homebred 7 y/o that is 3/4 Hanoverian (both sire and damsire imported) and 1/4 Arabian, and have also just imported a 5 y/o German born and bred WB. Both horses have SUPER amateur temperaments. And what about all those German and Dutch born horses that are packing amateur dressage and hunter riders around all over North America? :D

[YankeeLawyer]

I don't know if you can pigeonhole amateur temperament and import status like that. I have a homebred 7 y/o that is 3/4 Hanoverian (both sire and damsire imported) and 1/4 Arabian, and have also just imported a 5 y/o German born and bred WB. Both horses have SUPER amateur temperaments. And what about all those German and Dutch born horses that are packing amateur dressage and hunter riders around all over North America? :D

I agree.

I have the following in my barn:

Sandro Hit x Donnerhall
Hohenstein x Leibnitz
Florencio x Jazz
Benvolio x Bold Ruler

All of them have high aptitude for dressage and other disciplines, and all of them have exceptionally good and generous temperaments. Would I put a rank beginner on them? No, but not because they are unsafe per se. I don't believe in putting completely inexperienced riders on young horses because more often than not it ruins them, and I would not subject my horses to that. The youngest, by Florencio, has amazing gaits and acts like a made horse. She is without a doubt the easiest baby I have ever dealt with. She is also the younger half-sibling (same dam) of the aforementioned Waterloo S.E., who won the 4-Year Old Championships last year at Lexington. So, I think she is a very good example of breeding for high levels without compromising on temperament. In addition, I have never once witnessed a pro complain that a horse is too well-mannered, or too rideable. And I do believe that breeding for rideability and a good work ethic increases the chances the horse will excel at competition.

[carolprudm]

You could also say "what a waste to muddy the waters of a Warmblood breeding program with American breeds". ;)

I'm all for American Warmbloods, but I'm not in favor of using QH, Paint, Morgan, or whichever breeds people are considering "American". I'll stick to Warmblood and TB, thanks.
Justin Morgan was probably at least half TB, hence a warmblood

[PineTreeFarm]

The use of frozen semen in the United States does not make the resulting foals any less "U.S. bred", and favorable coverage of these youngsters in foreign publications is only positive for U.S. breeding programs, even if incidentally such coverage also promotes the foreign-based stallion in question. The point is, buyers can find foals in the U.S. of comparable quality and identical bloodlines to those in Europe, in some cases.


Yes, I'm sure similar bred horses can be found in the US. But what really happens ( at least in Hunter Jumper land ) is the client has the trainer shop in Europe if they want a high performance horse. There are a number of reasons why that is done but one of the reasons is name recognition for the registry.
Right now 'Dutch Warmblood' is hot for the 3'6" and over Hunter divisions.
To the buyer, that often translates as 'bred in Europe' so that's where they will shop. Don't blame the clients, after all there is no way to tell if any of the 'Dutch Warmbloods' that are winning were bred in the USA. I suspect most were not. But if the breed registry was 'USA Dutch Warmblood' domestically and 'Dutch Warmblood' for EU then we'd know where they come from.
So it's great to be loyal to a EU registry but you ( not you specifically Yankee ) are adding to the perception that the only way to go is with a Euro import.

"LOL!! I am so dying to go down to Chincoteague some time for pony penning day (held every July). I am not bringing the trailer, though!

FWIW, I do believe those ponies are of Spanish origin."

I've been to pony penning, a long, long time ago. It was tempting.
There is a pony listed as Chincoteague with USEF that has been Champion at major AA shows.

[Fairview Horse Center]

All of them have high aptitude for dressage and other disciplines, and all of them have exceptionally good and generous temperaments. Would I put a rank beginner on them? No, but not because they are unsafe per se. I don't believe in putting completely inexperienced riders on young horses because more often than not it ruins them, and I would not subject my horses to that.

Breeding for the "top" is what the European registries claim to be doing. Are those big scores given to horses that may do well for a top rider? You can't have it both ways. A horse sensitive enough for an FEI rider to breathe an aid onto and they immediately respond with huge gaits is not one that an amateur will feel safe on.

There are not just 2 or 3 kinds of riders, FEI, or even top Amateurs that ride 3 horses a day, or rank beginners. In the middle are riders that have good skills, but need a horse that is not reactive. They don't want a horse with no talent to be a school horse, but they do want one that can be ridden 2 weekends a month, and are easy. They want one that if a jump standard blows over while they are passing it, the horse will not jump out of its skin.

[amateurbreeder]

Please excuse the interuption, but "Dutch Warmblood" is sooooo yesterday:D. The new international name (translation) for the KWPN is "Royal Dutch Sporthorse";). KWPN website, March 11, 2008.

[~Freedom~]

If I had the time I'd be curious about the breeding of the horses Approved for Breeding, to see if they're more in line with traditional Warmblood breeding, or if there are more with non-traditional warmblood breeding (such as using American breeds.) It's easy to tell with the Elite Book horses (see how convenient that title is when you know the meaning behind it? wink), but for the others it might take some researching since there are reasons a horse might not be Elite Book which don't necessarily mean they've got QH, Morgan, Saddlebred, etc. (I'm targeting the Approved for Breeding horses because I think they're the most indicative of where a registry is headed, and it's the most prestigious level of recognition.)

Fwiw, I've always considered the AWS to be aiming towards the first definition I offered (traditional Warmbloods but in the USA.)

That would be an interesting exercise.

I had already previously selected one that was not Elite and this was his pedigree

His sire, Cicero, now deceased, stood at the Holsteiner verband in Germany for 7 years and has 6 approved stallion sons in Europe. His dam, Pfancy That, was a TB mare who showed through Prix St. George, between babies.

http://mobilehorsesupply.com/chant%20de%20paix.htm

I would be interested if some people here just randomly selected two or three more just to see what the breeding really is.

[YankeeLawyer]

Darlyn, I can argue with you until I am blue in the face. While I agree that horses with big auction trots are generally not for amateurs, those also are not generally the same horses that make it to the big ring and win grand prix.

To take one example, my Sandro Hit mare is one that I can and have pulled out of the field after not being ridden during the week -- and at times, not for a month + -- and she is good as gold. She is a legitimate GP prospect as well, at least according to some notable trainers who have seen her and some German breeders who have actually bred Olympic Team horses. Her dam had no less than nine 9s on her MPT and has a superb temperament; I believe my mare takes after her dam in that regard. She is being bred this year to Rousseau, with the intent of producing a youngster with a lot of talent that would be appropriate for an amateur or a pro.

I have no doubt that there is a market for nice horses that are not competitive on the show circuit, but I do not think world class bloodlines and amateur-friendly temperament and rideability are necessarily mutually exclusive.

Also, for people who only breed 2 to 3 mares a year, often it is not viable to breed if the resulting foal could not go for low five figures and up (assuming the foal is of the intended quality). Obviously, over time, some foals would be less and some more expensive, but it certainly would not be viable for me to breed something that effectively has its price capped at some figure below these amounts from the get-go.

[siegi b.]

PineTreeFarm - you wrote "To the buyer, that often translates as 'bred in Europe' so that's where they will shop. Don't blame the clients, after all there is no way to tell if any of the 'Dutch Warmbloods' that are winning were bred in the USA. I suspect most were not. But if the breed registry was 'USA Dutch Warmblood' domestically and 'Dutch Warmblood' for EU then we'd know where they come from."

In fact, there is the KWPN registry (based in The Netherlands) and then there is the KWPN NA - based in the US. And the horse's papers state very distinctly where the horse was bred even though Tri will have you believe otherwise. I had no problems getting recognition for breeding an FEI Young Horse Champion in the US....

[canticle]

I don't understand why people should have to defend their decisions to choose something other than a Euro-style WB. Why is such horse considered the default? Why must anyone who chooses anything else need an extraordinary excuse to do so?

Of course there are Euro-style WBs with superb temperament, rideability, soundness, longevity, etc. There are also American horses with these traits. Not only that, but by capitalizing on these characteristics there will be a big demand for the American Warmblood. Don't worry, the Euro WB isn't going anywhere. But not everyone wants that, and that's why different breeds and types exist! :)

[PineTreeFarm]

Please excuse the interuption, but "Dutch Warmblood" is sooooo yesterday:D. The new international name (translation) for the KWPN is "Royal Dutch Sporthorse";). KWPN website, March 11, 2008.

If it bothers you so much then look up all the horses that are recorded with USEF as 'Dutch Warmblood' and tell their owners to change the breed designation.

[PineTreeFarm]

PineTreeFarm - you wrote "To the buyer, that often translates as 'bred in Europe' so that's where they will shop. Don't blame the clients, after all there is no way to tell if any of the 'Dutch Warmbloods' that are winning were bred in the USA. I suspect most were not. But if the breed registry was 'USA Dutch Warmblood' domestically and 'Dutch Warmblood' for EU then we'd know where they come from."

In fact, there is the KWPN registry (based in The Netherlands) and then there is the KWPN NA - based in the US. And the horse's papers state very distinctly where the horse was bred even though Tri will have you believe otherwise. I had no problems getting recognition for breeding an FEI Young Horse Champion in the US....

There aren't that many recorded as KWPN NA or even KWPN. The 'breed' used is Dutch Warmblood. When a breeder is listed with USEF it's almost always an EU breeder or it's blank. So no recognition for US breeders.
No papers required to record with USEF.

[amateurbreeder]

Wow-- I guess "tongue in cheek" has no place on this board.:no:

[YankeeLawyer]

There aren't that many recorded as KWPN NA or even KWPN. The 'breed' used is Dutch Warmblood. When a breeder is listed with USEF it's almost always an EU breeder or it's blank. So no recognition for US breeders.
No papers required to record with USEF.

Then blame USEF and its dysfunctional tracking systems, not the breed registries, for that.

[YankeeLawyer]

I don't understand why people should have to defend their decisions to choose something other than a Euro-style WB. Why is such horse considered the default? Why must anyone who chooses anything else need an extraordinary excuse to do so?

Of course there are Euro-style WBs with superb temperament, rideability, soundness, longevity, etc. There are also American horses with these traits. Not only that, but by capitalizing on these characteristics there will be a big demand for the American Warmblood. Don't worry, the Euro WB isn't going anywhere. But not everyone wants that, and that's why different breeds and types exist! :)

I do not disagree with you, and I likewise object to sweeping generalizations to the effect that one or the "other" type of WB (which is not how I think of them, but US vs. them seems to be the prevailing perception here) has a monopoly on certain positive traits.

BTW, you mentioned Morgans ... I LOVE Morgans. I would love to own one. I doubt I would incorporate one into my Hanoverian breeding program, but I would consider breeding a Morgan generally.

[Mozart]

Wow-- I guess "tongue in cheek" has no place on this board.:no:

Well...if it's any consolation, I thought your comment was funny....:confused:

[~Freedom~]

Wow-- I guess "tongue in cheek" has no place on this board.:no:

Actually it does.:yes::winkgrin::lol:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=3195628&postcount=80

[FriesianX]

The other thing that our American registry (AWS) lets us do is deviate a bit from the traditional Warmblood model (and yes, that model seems to be changing every few years, so what is traditional?). I have been using Euro lines - Euro Warmbloods and Dutch/German Friesian lines, crossing the two to create a Warmblood like horse with more bone and a quieter temperment. An Amateur perfect horse, and also a nice horse for the Pro who is tired of hot horses. I'm not the only one doing this - and the Euro Warmblood model just won't accept that such a cross might make a fabulous sporthorse especially for dressage. Its not a whole lot different than the concept of crossing RID and Tbred to create a fabulous jumper - another cross that most of the Euro registries aren't too interested in.

So, AWS allows us to breed sporthorses that are a little "outside the traditional box" of the Euro model. There are people crossing in a little Morgan, Appy, Quarterhorse, Hackney, Arabian, etc with Warmblood or Tbred, and many of these crosses are really nice, sturdy, successful sporthorses. Why shouldn't we have a registry that supports this? And why can't we call these horses Warmbloods?

It is kind of exciting that this thread has continued on - it shows that there is a lot of passion and interest in the concept. There will be those who won't ever deviate from the Euro Warmblood registries - and that is OK. But I think for many of us, the desire is to use some of that long term breeding information toward our own American registry, and to have the option to deviate from the strict Euro rules that we don't always agree with.

Basically, to take the wheel as refined by the European registries, and to improve it toward our own American goals. We aren't re-inventing the wheel, we're just tweaking it a bit, adding rims and tires that WE are interested in...

[YankeeLawyer]

So it's great to be loyal to a EU registry but you ( not you specifically Yankee ) are adding to the perception that the only way to go is with a Euro import.
.

This is where I disagree. I imported mares with hard-to-obtain bloodlines precisely so that I could produce horses right here for people to buy here. I was able to buy my Florencio right here -- in fact within a few miles of my farm -- because another U.S. breeder shares a similar philosphy.

[PineTreeFarm]

Then blame USEF and its dysfunctional tracking systems, not the breed registries, for that.

You know, that seems to be the favorite excuse for the lack of US breeder recognition. And it's a good way to ignore the fact that by using EU registry names the myth that you must buy a EU import is getting perpetuated. The perception at many levels is if you want to win you must have a EU imported horse.

The USEF tracking system is a points tracking system and if you follow the rules it usually works just fine. It's not intended to be a breeder system. Now if there was one US registry and they tracked performance that would be great.

USEF records the breed designation that the owner provides when the horse is recorded with them. So how come all those EU breeders got recognized with USEF? Magic happened and only the EU horses were recorded with breeder info?

Of course there are US bred horses doing well at the highest levels but those horses seem to not be recorded with a registry. The breed is often listed as WB/TB, WB Cross or something similar and many of those horses have a US breeder listed. But the number is way too small to disprove the buy EU story.

On the other hand the Canadian bred horses are listed as Canadian so at least you know what country produced them.

The hunter/jumper market is the largest sector. Why concede it to Euro imports?

[PineTreeFarm]

Wow-- I guess "tongue in cheek" has no place on this board.:no:

Of course it does but somehow that's not what came accross.
Now 'tongue in cheek', that's 'sooooooo yesterday' .

[pinecone]

Freedom- yes, I think it would be interesting too. There are a lot of them! I started with the first 20.

Of the first 20 Approved stallions, half of them are Elite.
I was able to find 6 of the 10 who were not Elite:
A Jamais: Trak x TB
Adversary: (nominated) TB
Af Pisko Hunka: Appaloosa
Alexander: Dutch x TB mare approved Old, Holst, and Selle Francais
Anthem: (nominated) TB
Argo: Oldenburg x TB

[pinecone]

I also can't help but wonder, if people believe in non traditional crosses, great, but why the desire to label them warmbloods or Warmbloods? Why warmblood/Warmblood, and not Morgan cross, QH cross, Paint cross, etc?

There is a certain prestige that goes with the term Warmblood, and it comes from the implied quality which comes from (sputter, cough, the European Warmblood breeding model), so how can someone want to capitalize on the term Warmblood, but then disregard the breeding principles which made "Warmblood" what it is today?

Just curious in a serious opinion, not a war, although I know this question may strike a nerve with some people.

[canticle]

I also can't help but wonder, if people believe in non traditional crosses, great, but why the desire to label them warmbloods or Warmbloods? Why warmblood/Warmblood, and not Morgan cross, QH cross, Paint cross, etc?

There is a certain prestige that goes with the term Warmblood, and it comes from the implied quality which comes from (sputter, cough, the European Warmblood breeding model), so how can someone want to capitalize on the term Warmblood, but then disregard the breeding principles which made "Warmblood" what it is today?

Just curious in a serious opinion, not a war, although I know this question may strike a nerve with some people.
I don't think people use the term "Warmblood" because of the prestige, as there is bad that comes along with it too. I think they use the term for descriptive purposes. Presumably they are not breeding race horses or heavy pulling horses, but medium boned horses for the English disciplines. If breeders have different goals, they would use different marketing terms accordingly.

I have to ask, why do you call your horses Warmbloods? Why not TB crosses? Or Baden Württembergers? Or Zweibrückers? "Warmblood" is a blanket descriptive term and nothing more. There is nothing European about it. Only recently have people begun to insist that the term "Warmblood" means something very specific and that only Olympic type horses from Europe qualify.

I know there is a push to have the American WB people change the name to Sport Horse or something similar. But I think the Euro WB people are the ones who need to come up with a more appropriate name if it bothers them so much.

[~Freedom~]

Freedom- yes, I think it would be interesting too. There are a lot of them! I started with the first 20.

Of the first 20 Approved stallions, half of them are Elite.
I was able to find 6 of the 10 who were not Elite:
A Jamais: Trak x TB
Adversary: (nominated) TB
Af Pisko Hunka: Appaloosa
Alexander: Dutch x TB mare approved Old, Holst, and Selle Francais
Anthem: (nominated) TB
Argo: Oldenburg x TB

Here are the next batch all the B's and C's

ATAHUAL-PA (ATA BOY) -- nothing found
*BARD MR.BELEVEDERE -- nothing found
BASHO -- nothing found
BFF IN DISGUISE -- TB-Clyde
BOY OH BOY --(Trak) out of D.W.Hope (TB/X), by Our Dad (TB),
BRUFIRE – Nominated -- Arabian
CALYPSO -- Holsteiner/TB
*CATHERSTON DAZZLER -- British Warmblood(Gelderlander/TB)/British Sport Horse( TB/IDSH)
*CATHERSTON LIBERATOR -- TB/? (KWPN/British Sport
Horse)
CHANT DE PAIX -- Holsteiner/TB

[FriesianX]

I also can't help but wonder, if people believe in non traditional crosses, great, but why the desire to label them warmbloods or Warmbloods? Why warmblood/Warmblood, and not Morgan cross, QH cross, Paint cross, etc?

There is a certain prestige that goes with the term Warmblood, and it comes from the implied quality which comes from (sputter, cough, the European Warmblood breeding model), so how can someone want to capitalize on the term Warmblood, but then disregard the breeding principles which made "Warmblood" what it is today?

Just curious in a serious opinion, not a war, although I know this question may strike a nerve with some people.

I guess my question is - why not Warmbloods? Do the Europeans have a trademark on that term? What is a Warmblood? Even the Euro model is basically a mixing of sporthorse types to create a medium blooded (versus hot or cold blooded) horse suitable for one or more of the sport disciplines. Over the years, even the Europeans have experimented with different breeding. Isn't that what most of us on this forum are doing?

An Oldenburg (I'll use that as an example) isn't a purebred anything, it is a cross. Do we expect it be called a Hannoverian cross or a Thoroughbred cross?

Yes, the term has prestige - which is exactly WHY we want to use it. Why can't a Morgan/Hannoverian (just one example) cross who excels in dressage be considered a Warmblood? Heck, I've always thought of Morgans as the original American Warmblood (I know the Appy owners will battle for that title as well). Years ago I had a Morgan that everyone always thought was a Dutch WB - no one ever believed he was Morgan. So what makes such a horse NOT a Warmblood?

I do think the title needs to focus on horses bred for sport disciplines, but that is really what AWS focuses on too. Oh - another reason to use the term Warmblood instead of Sport Horse - you know how we love acronyms - American Sport Horse would become ASH, and that is just so, well, Ashy...

You aren't striking a nerve, just generating discussion :winkgrin:

[pintopiaffe]

No one else answered this two pages back, so I will...

"Native" breeds, not exactly the scientific definition, because lack of any sort of horse on American soil there for awhile...

But... how about... American Saddlebred, Morgan, American Paint Horse, Pony of the Americas, Appaloosa... Quarter Horse of course--although some are not suited at all to our disciplines, some are quite well suited... Azteca/American Azteca...

These are all breeds that yes, came from somewhere else waaaaay back, but are uniquely American.

[tri]

I too was brought up with the teachings that all horses fell into three categories; hot blood, cold blood and warm blood. That would make quite a few horses warmbloods, not just the modern day european one.

Also, the history of the mare base that the europeans market as being the wonderful basis for their breeding programs were mostly light agriculture horses suitable to ride or take the family to church on Sundays along with the ones used for calvery, and having some spanish base to them, then crossed with TBs. How many of you know the history of the quarter horse? The QH is a spanish based horse, used for light agriculture and refined enough for riding or to take the family to church on Sundays and used extensively for calvery, then crossed with English and French TBs. At one point, the sport of racing cross country between towns (can you say "steeplechasing & eventing") became so popular that the QHs were crossed even more extensively with the TBs. It wasn't until much later that the "cow" type QH was bred but not all went to that cowhorse type model.

It would be an interesting exercise to take a photo of one of these older quarter horses and compare it to one of the older european horses.

Down yonder, I don't know what your problem with Cooldanz is. He is called an Oldenburg, his owners call him an Oldenburg, his registry calls him an Oldenburg, the people who bought him call him Oldenburg and his papers say he is Oldenburg. It sounds like you don't consider anything in the Oldna registry an Oldenburg. But at least his dam was actually approved in the Oldenburg Verband (and NO, she isn't a stallion...but hey! we still use the term "approved")

[tri]

I also can't help but wonder, if people believe in non traditional crosses, great, but why the desire to label them warmbloods or Warmbloods? Why warmblood/Warmblood, and not Morgan cross, QH cross, Paint cross, etc?

Ok, then, why did the europeans call a French trotter/warmblood cross a warmblood? Galoubet

Why do the europeans call a quarterhorse/warmblood cross a warmblood? Victory Gallop

Is a tuigpaard horse a warmblood? Why not a saddlebred cross?

The Zangershiede uses Irish Draught in their program & call them warmbloods, why don't they call them an ID cross?

In Russia, Akhal Teke horses have been used in the Russian Warmblood, why don't they call them Akhal Teke crosses?

Then you throw in Gelderlander blood, Groningen blood, Shagya blood, arab blood, Tb blood and now we are seeing more quarter horse blood, yadda yadda yadda.

See, the argument is silly and useless. Warmbloods by the very european definition is a recipe and different things have been and are tried. Some of them work well, some of them don't but they were all "used in warmblood breeding"

It is up to the individual breeder to look at the bloodlines of each horse and judge accordingly.

If breeders don't mind being in a registry that has a division that accepts horses with half saddlebred, why do they mind being in a registry that has books that cater to hunters that may have some quarterhorse?

[canticle]

And what about Jennie Loriston-Clarke's Catherston Stud? Her horses are almost all TB, yet registered as British Warmblood! ;)

[DownYonder]

Down yonder, I don't know what your problem with Cooldanz is. He is called an Oldenburg, his owners call him an Oldenburg, his registry calls him an Oldenburg, the people who bought him call him Oldenburg and his papers say he is Oldenburg. It sounds like you don't consider anything in the Oldna registry an Oldenburg. But at least his dam was actually approved in the Oldenburg Verband (and NO, she isn't a stallion...but hey! we still use the term "approved")

My “problem” with Cooldanz is that certain people keep people keep trying to spin the story to make it sound as though he is an American-bred “approved Oldenburg stallion” that was sold to Europe.

I am only trying to point out the facts:

1. He is not registered with the Oldenburg Verband and is not considered a true Oldenburg by the Verband office in Germany (as well as by many people here).

2. His dam is not approved by Oldenburg. She was never presented to Oldenburg for breeding approval and is not in the Oldenburg mare books. If she was, she would be in Pre-Mare Book II, and her colts would not be considered as stallion candidates.

3. See above. Cooldanz is not an approved Oldenburg stallion. As far as I know, he isn’t approved for breeding by any warmblood registry, and in fact was turned down for licensing by at least two registries (ISR/ONA and SHBGB).

4.Cooldanz was sold to England because the buyer already had one pinto colored stallion and she wanted another one. If he had been a solid-colored horse, I doubt very seriously she would have been interested in him. In fact, I have often wondered if the only reason he was left intact is because of his pinto coloring.

Now, when someone DOES sell an American-bred warmblood stallion to Europe – of any color - that is approved by a major warmblood registry, then I will consider that to be very worthy of a hearty congratulations. The Cooldanz story is only newsworthy because his previous owner keeps touting it as though it is some kind of amazing achievement. As it is, I know several people who have sold unlicensed stallions to Europe – including to Denmark and Holland. I do think it is “cool” that Cooldanz is apparently in training with a top rider, and I have already offered my best wishes for his success in his new career as a jumper.

[Fairview Horse Center]

2. His dam is not approved by Oldenburg. She was never presented to Oldenburg for breeding approval and is not in the Oldenburg mare books. If she was, she would be in Pre-Mare Book II, and her colts would not be considered as stallion candidates.

Actually I believe she was presented and placed in the Oldenburg MMB before the split. After the split, the Oldenburg VB decided not to honor prior inspections, even though done by THEIR inspector, and required all mares to be presented again for Studbook placement. I had a mare in that fiasco too. My approved Belgian, OLD/ISR, and Westfalen MMB mare was "reinspected" and placed in the Marebook, along with every other mare at that inspection including a Dutch Ster mare. :rolleyes: I never went back. What a farce. An attempt to elevate their registry by putting everyone else down a rung.

Funny, but at her Westfalen inspection, the inspector actually followed me out to my trailer to give me her card, as she liked my mare so much. She chose well, as that is the mother of the 2007 USDF 4th place Maiden & Yeld mare HOY. Nope, not good enough. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[MagicRoseFarm]

Darlyn, I too had mares caught in all that, and mares in the AHS merge. Even our Annette , who was second highest scoring mare in the US at her mare inspection, and Dam of the ( already approved) son Gold Luck, had her breeding status revoked.

Even though all these mares had high scores , and premiums, suddenly they were ineligible to produce. Like you, I too continued on breeding what I believe in.

Only this week I received yet another call from a lost owner, another of those offspring is an FEI schoolmaster. Once again proving I made a correct decision to remain proud that I did not change my own direction because foreign based Associations retroactively changed their protocol.

[Horsecrazy27]

My “problem” with Cooldanz is that certain people keep people keep trying to spin the story to make it sound as though he is an American-bred “approved Oldenburg stallion” that was sold to Europe.

I am only trying to point out the facts:

1. He is not registered with the Oldenburg Verband and is not considered a true Oldenburg by the Verband office in Germany (as well as by many people here).

2. His dam is not approved by Oldenburg. She was never presented to Oldenburg for breeding approval and is not in the Oldenburg mare books. If she was, she would be in Pre-Mare Book II, and her colts would not be considered as stallion candidates.

3. See above. Cooldanz is not an approved Oldenburg stallion. As far as I know, he isn’t approved for breeding by any warmblood registry, and in fact was turned down for licensing by at least two registries (ISR/ONA and SHBGB).

4.Cooldanz was sold to England because the buyer already had one pinto colored stallion and she wanted another one. If he had been a solid-colored horse, I doubt very seriously she would have been interested in him. In fact, I have often wondered if the only reason he was left intact is because of his pinto coloring.

Now, when someone DOES sell an American-bred warmblood stallion to Europe – of any color - that is approved by a major warmblood registry, then I will consider that to be very worthy of a hearty congratulations. The Cooldanz story is only newsworthy because his previous owner keeps touting it as though it is some kind of amazing achievement. As it is, I know several people who have sold unlicensed stallions to Europe – including to Denmark and Holland. I do think it is “cool” that Cooldanz is apparently in training with a top rider, and I have already offered my best wishes for his success in his new career as a jumper.


I have some -now older-- OLDENBURG horses with Oldenburg brands--not NA brands that were born from IMPORTED--very very very expensive imported Oldenuburg horses. It was long before the "seperation". So, "many" poeple don't consider them "oldenburgs"? I have never heard of such a thing in my circles.

One of the horses is out of a mare who was bought in OLDENBURG Germany at the tender age of 6mo. old for $60 THOUSAND dollars!!! His sire was imported here in the 80's from OLDENBURG Germany---in the very very high 6 figuired numbers.

SO, your telling me the foals out of the TB's approved by the VERBAND are more "oldenburg"
than them??????????? That many people would not call my horse an "oldenburg", but a mutt??????????

Sorry, I'm a bit grumpy this morning and this doesn't even make sense to me.

[DownYonder]

Actually I believe she was presented and placed in the Oldenburg MMB before the split. After the split, the Oldenburg VB decided not to honor prior inspections, even though done by THEIR inspector, and required all mares to be presented again for Studbook placement.

My understanding is that Cooldanz's dam was born the year before the split and therefore was not eligible for mare inspection until after the split. You are probably thinking about HER dam, who was placed in the ISR/ONA MMB by Roland Ramseur. And, as I said in an earlier post, it was these types of instances that eventually led to Ramseur's dismissal from the Verband. The mare was not eligible for MMB under Oldenburg breeding rules. Period, end of quote.

Furthermore, Oldenburg couldn't honor prior inspections after the split because ISR/ONA did not turn over any records. The Verband therefore had NO info on the mares in its databases. It would have been another violation of breeding rules to issue registration papers to foals from mares not recorded in its marebooks.

What many people do not realize is that Oldenburg could have lost its license to register foals in Germany if it didn't rectify its mare book problems in N.A. It really isn't fair to vilefy the registry for trying to straighten out a mess caused by people who should have known better.

[not again]

What a mess! And no recourse for American breeders caught in the middle.

[DownYonder]

I have some -now older-- OLDENBURG horses with Oldenburg brands--not NA brands that were born from IMPORTED--very very very expensive imported Oldenuburg horses. It was long before the "seperation". So, "many" poeple don't consider them "oldenburgs"? I have never heard of such a thing in my circles.

Yeah, you said pretty much the same thing earlier in this thread. See your post #150. And I pretty much answered it in my post #152.

To reiterate – if the horse was registered with ISR/ONA while that organization was the official N.A. licensee of the Oldenburg Verband, it is considered to be an Oldenburg. If it was registered with ISR/ONA after ISR’s license expired with Oldenburg, then the horse isn’t considered to be an Oldenburg by the Verband.

[Fairview Horse Center]

My understanding is that Cooldanz's dam was born the year before the split and therefore was not eligible for mare inspection until after the split. You are probably thinking about HER dam, who was placed in the ISR/ONA MMB by Roland Ramseur. And, as I said in an earlier post, it was these types of instances that eventually led to Ramseur's dismissal from the Verband. The mare was not eligible for MMB under Oldenburg breeding rules. Period, end of quote.

Furthermore, Oldenburg couldn't honor prior inspections after the split because ISR/ONA did not turn over any records. The Verband therefore had NO info on the mares in its databases. It would have been another violation of breeding rules to issue registration papers to foals from mares not recorded in its marebooks.

What many people do not realize is that Oldenburg could have lost its license to register foals in Germany if it didn't rectify its mare book problems in N.A. It really isn't fair to vilefy the registry for trying to straighten out a mess caused by people who should have known better.

That may be all well and good, but in any OTHER business, if an "agent" of a company makes a mistake, insurance agent tells a policy holder they are covered, store clerk posts the wrong price, garage gives wrong estimate, etc, the business will honor THEIR mistake. I believe the law has upheld that.

It is dishonorable, and probably illegal to do anything else.

It doesn't matter if the ISR/OLD did not turn over any records. Every single mare owner has in their possession a copy, including scores and a placement certificate. I would have happily turned over a copy to the Verband if that was allowed.

Instead, the Verband set out to purposely STUFF the American breeders to show them they were not up to the "their" standard. By lowering all of the mares placements, we were just a tool to attempt to elevate the Verband above the ISR/OLD NA.

They blatantly and purposely destroyed long term relationships to make a point. They did it to breeders that they had already "won" in the split, in other words, their OWN people.

Screw me once, shame on you, .... They DROVE their breeders to other registries, because they learned that the Oldenburg Verband was not to be trusted.

[DownYonder]

That may be all well and good, but in any OTHER business, if an "agent" of a company makes a mistake, insurance agent tells a policy holder they are covered, store clerk posts the wrong price, garage gives wrong estimate, etc, the business will honor THEIR mistake. I believe the law has upheld that.

But not when the "mistake" is in violation of government regulations. Did you not even read the part about the Verband being in jeopardy of losing its license IN GERMANY if it didn't straighten out the mess its licensed agents made in North America?

It doesn't matter if the ISR/OLD did not turn over any records. Every single mare owner has in their possession a copy, including scores and a placement certificate. I would have happily turned over a copy to the Verband if that was allowed.

The other issue was that ISR used a completely different scoring system than the Verband uses, and different mare book criteria - for instance, there isn't any such thing as a "premium mare book" with the Verband. Even if the mare owners had been able to provide copies of their previous scoresheets, the Verband would have had to spent countless hours transposing those scores and reassigning mares to appropriate books as necessary.

Besides, all you had to do was bring your mares back for evaluation by a Verband appointed inspector. Heck, they had even offered for a time after the split to not charge an inspection fee for these mares.

Instead, the Verband set out to purposely STUFF the American breeders to show them they were not up to the "their" standard. By lowering all of the mares placements, we were just a tool to attempt to elevate the Verband above the ISR/OLD NA.

I understand that you are bitter, but I very much doubt that the Verband PURPOSELY set out to "stuff" American breeders. And they didn't lower all mare book placements. They just required the mares to be re-evaluated. If the mares qualified for MMB by virtue of pedigree and quality, they would have been placed there - no matter what their previous mare book placement was.

They blatantly and purposely destroyed long term relationships to make a point. They did it to breeders that they had already "won" in the split, in other words, their OWN people.

Screw me once, shame on you, .... They DROVE their breeders to other registries, because they learned that the Oldenburg Verband was not to be trusted.

Well, they may have lost a lot of breeders during the confusion, but a heck of a lot of them came back over the years. And the registry continues to grow every year - in fact, in 2007, it registered almost as many foals as ISR/ONA.

[Fairview Horse Center]

But not when the "mistake" is in violation of government regulations. Did you not even read the part about the Verband being in jeopardy of losing its license IN GERMANY if it didn't straighten out the mess its licensed agents made in North America?

They may have been in violation of German regulations, but what they did was in violation of American laws. If you choose to do business in another country, you must follow that country's laws.


The other issue was that ISR used a completely different scoring system than the Verband uses, and different mare book criteria - for instance, there isn't any such thing as a "premium mare book" with the Verband. Even if the mare owners had been able to provide copies of their previous scoresheets, the Verband would have had to spent countless hours transposing those scores and reassigning mares to appropriate books as necessary. They used the same scoring system that was in place when they were operating under the Verband agreement. Suck it up, and do what is right. Live by the agreement THEY made.

I understand that you are bitter, but I very much doubt that the Verband PURPOSELY set out to "stuff" American breeders. And they didn't lower all mare book placements. They just required the mares to be re-evaluated. If the mares qualified for MMB by virtue of pedigree and quality, they would have been placed there - no matter what their previous mare book placement was. It was very obvious at the inspection I was at that the goal was to make a statement - to PURPOSELY lower ALL of the mares - even VERY nice ones with no pedigree questions. I am not bitter, I am SMARTER. :yes: :yes:

Well, they may have lost a lot of breeders during the confusion, but a heck of a lot of them came back over the years. And the registry continues to grow every year - in fact, in 2007, it registered almost as many foals as ISR/ONA.

That is a shame, because they are truly not a trustworthy organization. Please note I do not have a problem with the OTHER European Registries.

[tri]

And this is what happens folks, when we turn our entire sporthorse breeding program over to A FOREIGN COUNTRY. I don't give a rats ass what the Oldeburg Verband was in jeopardy of losing or not losing IN GERMANY. This is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and the breeders here were screwed. Or really, they just screwed themselves by setting up with a foreign based registry instead of organizing our own.

Same thing is now happening with the breeders who went with the Selle Francias registry. And the AHHA has tettered/tottered more than once.

The BWP had problems, not to mention a lot of corruption with their "volunteers" here as well.

What are you all going to do when one of the registries decides to change the rules again to meet some need for something somewhere in europe? Or goes out of business? Will your oldenburgs suddenly become belgian wbs? or will your hanoverians suddenly become rpsi? Will your belgian wbs suddenly become oldenburgs? Will your holsteiners suddenly become dutch wbs?

It is so laughable. They are american.

[Donatella]

If breeders don't mind being in a registry that has a division that accepts horses with half saddlebred, why do they mind being in a registry that has books that cater to hunters that may have some quarterhorse?

Which registry is this?

[tri]

The KWPN - the Tuigpaard book. I looked it up and the KWPN considers them warmbloods and they do use saddlebreds.

So, if the KWPN can have a book to handle driving horses and use saddlebred blood, what is the difference in an american registry that has a hunter section and uses some quarterhorse?

Each is addressing the requirements of that particular market/book.

[Tiki]

Now, when someone DOES sell an American-bred warmblood stallion to Europe – of any color - that is approved by a major warmblood registry, then I will consider that to be very worthy of a hearty congratulations.Well, for sure, that would be Citango!!!

[DownYonder]

They may have been in violation of German regulations, but what they did was in violation of American laws. If you choose to do business in another country, you must follow that country's laws..

What law did they break?

They used the same scoring system that was in place when they were operating under the Verband agreement. Suck it up, and do what is right. Live by the agreement THEY made...

Yes, but it was a scoring system that was developed by ISR and was not in compliance with the Verband system. The BIG mistake the Verband made was in trusting Brysch and Co. to look after its affairs here in N.A. Instead, it got caught up dealing with other issues in Germany - including the Grannus scandal - and turned a blind eye to N.A. for WAY too long. And when it became apparent that it was in jeopardy of losing its German license for allowing unqualified mares into its N.A. MMB, it had no choice but to pull ISR's license and require that all mares be represented for scoring into the appropriate mare books.

It was very obvious at the inspection I was at that the goal was to make a statement - to PURPOSELY lower ALL of the mares - even VERY nice ones with no pedigree questions.

Sorry you feel that way. But obviously you have found a registry that makes you happy, and that is the prerogative of every breeder. Quite a few seem to be pretty happy with Oldenburg.

Can we please stop bashing Oldenburg now and get back to the topic at hand? It seems that others have made some comments about AWS, AWR, etc., that are worthy of discussion.

[DownYonder]

Well, for sure, that would be Citango!!!

YES!! That was his name! I *knew* I had heard about an American-bred stallion that had been approved in Europe, but couldn't remember his name! Thanks! And yes, big kudos to his breeder and owner!! :D:D:D

[Fairview Horse Center]

What law did they break?

Yes, but it was a scoring system that was developed by ISR and was not in compliance with the Verband system. The BIG mistake the Verband made was in trusting Brysch and Co. to look after its affairs here in N.A. Instead, it got caught up dealing with other issues in Germany - including the Grannus scandal - and turned a blind eye to N.A. for WAY too long. And when it became apparent that it was in jeopardy of losing its German license for allowing unqualified mares into its N.A. MMB, it had no choice but to pull ISR's license and require that all mares be represented for scoring into the appropriate mare books.

The Verband's agent made agreements with American breeders that those people made business decisions based on those agreements and certifications/approvals. Read, it was a "BIG mistake the Verband made". If a business makes a mistake that effects others, the courts will generally find that they are liable. If you make a mistake, and don't apply the brakes on your car, and cause an accident, you have to make it right. YOU have to stand by YOUR mistake, so others don't suffer because of it. When a business makes an agreement, they are required by law to live up to that agreement. They agreed to allow the ISR to make registration and approval decisions for them in this country.

[DownYonder]

The Verband's agent made agreements with American breeders that those people made business decisions based on those agreements and certifications/approvals. Read, it was a "BIG mistake the Verband made". If a business makes a mistake that effects others, the courts will generally find that they are liable. If you make a mistake, and don't apply the brakes on your car, and cause an accident, you have to make it right. YOU have to stand by YOUR mistake, so others don't suffer because of it. When a business makes an agreement, they are required by law to live up to that agreement. They agreed to allow the ISR to make registration and approval decisions for them in this country.

Were criminal charges ever filed against the Verband?

[Equibrit]

I believe that would be "civil" charges.

Who knows what got "settled' or "paid off" or whatever ?

[tri]

The BIG mistake the Verband made was in trusting Brysch and Co. to look after its affairs here in N.A. Instead, it got caught up dealing with other issues in Germany - including the Grannus scandal - and turned a blind eye to N.A.

Oh yes, we are all so happy with foreign based registries that "turn a blind eye to its affairs here in the U.S. Oh yeah, that is exactly how we need to build a sporthorse industry here in the U.S. Just wonderful, just absolutely freaking wonderful for us american breeders.

Look Chris, I just love the oldenburg people, the horses and their breeding program. But man o man, you make my argument for me with statements like that. Out of the mouths of babes.

[siegi b.]

Watch it tri, you're starting to foam at the mouth again..... :-)

And, FYI... http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/info.php?page=2008%20APA%20Updates
Canada has been trying a lot longer than the US to have their own registry....

[tri]

"Trying to have their own registry?" Siegi, dear, I believe they do have their own registry and one that is widely respected. Circle your broom around and try again.

[~Freedom~]

"Trying to have their own registry?" Siegi, dear, I believe they do have their own registry and one that is widely respected. Circle your broom around and try again.


Sorry may be respected but if you look at what is in their books I find it not much different than the AWS/AWR.

They are also from what I see as far as Ag Canada is concerned an illegal registry.

[DownYonder]

Oh yes, we are all so happy with foreign based registries that "turn a blind eye to its affairs here in the U.S. Oh yeah, that is exactly how we need to build a sporthorse industry here in the U.S. Just wonderful, just absolutely freaking wonderful for us american breeders.

Look Chris, I just love the oldenburg people, the horses and their breeding program. But man o man, you make my argument for me with statements like that. Out of the mouths of babes.

Kathy, this happened over a decade ago. And, as I said earlier - Oldenburg's North American breedership has been growing steadily ever since. I guess there are a heck of a lot of breeders who much prefer to register foals with an organization with a world-wide reputation for producing top competition horses than with an American registry with very little world wide recognition.

[DownYonder]

I believe that would be "civil" charges.

Who knows what got "settled' or "paid off" or whatever ?

She was implying that the Verband "broke the law" - which is why I asked if there were ever criminal charges filed.

Civil litigation over the use of the trademark is a different matter.

[Tasker]

Kathy, this happened over a decade ago. And, as I said earlier - Oldenburg's North American breedership has been growing steadily ever since. I guess there are a heck of a lot of breeders who much prefer to register foals with an organization with a world-wide reputation for producing top competition horses than with an American registry with very little world wide recognition.

You know what DY - I get it that you don't like the idea/philosophy/concept/practices of the AWR. Really I do. You (and everyone else who is pro THEIR registry) are entitled to support a different registry. One that your choose to support. But can you tone it down a notch? The WBFSH thinks enough of the AWR to send the Young Breeders Championships here in 2010...so it must not be that terrible an organization. But if you don't approve/support/like the practices of the AWR, fine.

But (and this is a big BUT) personally, I resent riding down the centerline at at CDI on a homebred and having the credit go to another country for the production of my horse. Since he/she/it was born here in PA (which is part of the United States of America last time I checked) it is an American Warmblood in my mind. Like I said before, I am not shy about saying where my horse came from. And it is my prerogative, just like it is yours to register your horses with the GOV. Funny thing about this - I could bring my horses to the GOV as Wally is approved...but I don't.
**Edited to add** I could also push my clients to bring their mares & foals to the GOV...but I don't. Having had him for over 4 years and being asked if I wanted stallion breeding certificates for the FIRST time this year is just amusing to me. All of his paperwork was done at the time of purchase. But it took 4 years to ask if I wanted certificates?? What kind of customer service is that?

So while in your oft repeated statements about how the AWR lacks credibility you continually point out how inferior those horses are - fine. That is your opinion. But at the end of the day, the buyers, the riders and the judges decide what HORSE will work for them and how proficient it is in the chosen discipline. The registration has so little to do with a RIDING horse it is silly to keep up this discussion, so I will back away.

But please keep in mind that at the end of the day that piece of paper just is a piece of paper that proves parentage. Oh and yours is in German.

[DownYonder]

You know, I really haven't said much against AWR - or AWS, for that matter. I think all registries serve a purpose - if they didn't, they wouldn't exist.

I am only posting on this thread because several people have decided to use it to slam Oldenburg - over and over again. My comment about people wanting to register with a known registry was purely in response to Kathy's rantings about Euro registries in general, and Oldenburg in particular. AWR and/or AWS will probably at some point have some horses at the top levels of international competition. At the moment, they don't. And most breeders prefer to support a registry that IS known. Breeders support Oldenburg for the same reason other breeders support KWPN and AHS - better name recognition generally means easier marketing of the offspring. It is the same reason why the breeder of my 5 y/o trailers his mares and foals 3-1/2 hours from the Rheinland Pfalz-Saar area of Germany to Oldenburg to get them approved and registered - Oldenburg in Germany has better name recognition, better marking opportunities. It's a business decision.

[tri]

Chris, please tell me how I have "slammed" the oldenburg registry?

Having the position, as I do, that Americans should support our own internal system versus having a foreign entity come in and run it for us does NOT slam that entity. I have never said one bad thing about the oldenburg registry, the people, their system or their horses. However, the reverse can NOT be said by you and others with regards to the American ones.