Are there enough dilute WB's in the NA market???

[TrueColours]

The last thing on earth I needed was to consider buying / promoting / standing another stallion, but I came across a fabulous WB (Oldenburg) yearling colt in Europe with impeccable bloodlines and everything else SO right about him, that I am actually seriously considering importing him to stand in Canada.

He's a double dilute so as well as being very attractive to Mare Owners from a pure bloodlines and performance perspective, if someone is attracted to the dilute colouring for their foals, he would also serve that market as well

He is a nice enough colt, that the breeder is interested - VERY interested ;) - in getting him out of their backyard and into North America instead so he is an attractive purchase from that viewpoint as well



So - all things considered - is there room for one more VERY nice double dilute WB colt in the NA market?

Thanks for any/all opinions on this ... :)

[Oakstable]

I think so. How many are there?

[hluing]

I bet there is. I wish there were more dilute German Riding Ponies. A double dilute, even better;)

[RiddleMeThis]

Personally if its a good horse no one will care what color it is. If it was a great bay, chestnut, black gray stallion there would be no question like this. I say there is plenty room over here for a great stallion.

[DancingAppy]

I definitely think there is, especially if he's dressage bred. Also depends on what bloodlines he stems from.

Would you be able to tell more about him?

Honestly, I can only think of 2 double dilute European WB stallions and only 2 dilute stallions. I'm probably forgetting about a couple. So there will be a market for another dilute stud.

[Centerline Farm]

I think that there would indeed be a market...

as long as the stallion was actually competing successfully in something!!!! (and I don't mean in hand stuff)

There are a ton of double dilute (by this I assume you mean cremello?) stallions in North America who do nothing but stand in the breeding shed. We don't need any more of those. We need some dilutes that compete under saddle and show athletic talent.

And of course you should test him with reputable, accredited registries as well and that alone would make him a rare dilute stallion. I think then he would probably be the only one in North America!!!:cool::cool: I am not positive on that though.

If this colt was imported and simply stood at stud solely based on his coat and had no approvals, then, no I don't think there is much of a market at all...:no:

[Galileo1998]

With recognized approvals then yes, I think there would be.

[Signature]

I think there would definitely be a market for an approved dilute WB.

We have a Devon winning approved RPSI MMB palomino TB mare and the foals she produces, if dilute, will be a part of very few full papered dilute WBs. We are very excited as she is due any day now. There is a great deal of interest in her baby, especially if it is buckskin.

I do not know especially of a hunter-type approved dilute WB stallion in the US. We would definitely consider it were it nice enough. Would still never breed just for color, however.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I think that there would indeed be a market...

as long as the stallion was actually competing successfully in something!!!! (and I don't mean in hand stuff)

There are a ton of double dilute (by this I assume you mean cremello?) stallions in North America who do nothing but stand in the breeding shed. We don't need any more of those. We need some dilutes that compete under saddle and show athletic talent.

And of course you should test him with reputable, accredited registries as well and that alone would make him a rare dilute stallion. I think then he would probably be the only one in North America!!!:cool::cool: I am not positive on that though.

If this colt was imported and simply stood at stud solely based on his coat and had no approvals, then, no I don't think there is much of a market at all...:no:

AMEN!!!

[coriander]

I think that there would indeed be a market...

as long as the stallion was actually competing successfully in something!!!! (and I don't mean in hand stuff)

There are a ton of double dilute (by this I assume you mean cremello?) stallions in North America who do nothing but stand in the breeding shed. We don't need any more of those. We need some dilutes that compete under saddle and show athletic talent.

And of course you should test him with reputable, accredited registries as well and that alone would make him a rare dilute stallion. I think then he would probably be the only one in North America!!!:cool::cool: I am not positive on that though.

If this colt was imported and simply stood at stud solely based on his coat and had no approvals, then, no I don't think there is much of a market at all...:no:

I'll second the AMEN. We really don't need stallions of any color that just stand and breed, but it seems some folks will breed to just that if there's a special "color" involved. So then there's a new horse without a high probability of performance, since at least one parent has no performance record. We need far fewer of those kinds of horses, imho, but I'm a traditionalist.

[Kyzteke]

I agree with all the others -- as far as I know there is only ONE DD that has actually been tested and approved by a registry that's Wolf Run Farms boy (forget his name). He was tested by RPSI here in America.

Even better would be to have him tested in Germany. I know I was very impressed that Sempatico performed very strongly in his German testing -- finished 7th in dressage I think, with the late His Highness winning.

When I bred my Hanoverian mare to a DD stallion, I was told the owners were going to present him to RPSI that fall -- it never happened. So all I could get was a COP on him. Too bad, because I had some people looking at him as a stallion prospect, but the weak registration pretty much screwed up that deal.

[siegi b.]

I agree with Kyzteke in that there is really only one DD that has gone through approvals and is being shown and that is Emit from Wolf Run Farm in Buxton, Maine.

That is the problem I have with color breeders, especially the DD kind - breeding for the sake of color only. They will say all the right things but most of them will never follow through. I know that doesn't make me popular but it's certainly the way it is.

This country needs another warmblood stallion like it needs another hole in its head. Look at the numbers and then justify some strange colored WB boy coming in just because he has a strange color. No thanks!

[spacely]

I think that there would indeed be a market...

as long as the stallion was actually competing successfully in something!!!! (and I don't mean in hand stuff)

There are a ton of double dilute (by this I assume you mean cremello?) stallions in North America who do nothing but stand in the breeding shed. We don't need any more of those. We need some dilutes that compete under saddle and show athletic talent.

And of course you should test him with reputable, accredited registries as well and that alone would make him a rare dilute stallion. I think then he would probably be the only one in North America!!!:cool::cool: I am not positive on that though.

If this colt was imported and simply stood at stud solely based on his coat and had no approvals, then, no I don't think there is much of a market at all...:no:

:yes: Ditto! I would, love, love, love a buckskin or palomino BUT there is not 1 DD stallion available here that I would consider breeding to. Most stand based on color alone & their ability to produce it. :sigh:

If you aren't going to have him tested & approved with a reputable registry the forget it. We don't need another DD stallion here that does nothing but make more colored babies that aren't going anywhere.

[Rhyadawn]

I'm curious who it is.. I was checking out some sites today and saw one that fits the description, and on top of colour and wonderful bloodlines what a cutie!!

[Donella]

If he is good enough to be liscenced German Oldenburg AND he is actually, truly nice. I have yet to see a dilute wb in NA that I think is seriously stallion material. JMHO:).

I did see a cool palomino or cremello wb in Europe with super Hanoverian breeding top and bottom that was true quality. I thought to myself "now that would be cool with a real nice tb mare". But again, what would be really nice is if one were to be approved with German Oldenburg or KWPN so that people could get something with GOV or KWPN papers and color. I saw a GORGEOUS buckskin colt on Sporting Chance Farms website who is papered KWPN and colored. Colored wb crosses are pretty common, but something with serious papers and colored is not.

[Peace of Cake]

There is a nice young buckskin colt here: http://www.superiorhorse.net/

But I agree with most of the other posters. He would need to be approved and shown, and not just in hand. We can look at his conformation all day long. Best of luck in what you decide to do.

[TrueColours]

Thanks so much for the feedback everyone

Yes - the intention would be to get him approved once he is old enough to do so. I dont believe in having single or double dilute stallions just entering the breeding shed without doing something either! ;)

And I know that the CSHA approval process might not be as highly regarded as the European registry ones are, but my double dilute Thoroughbred stallion HAS gone through the CSHA inspection and approvals and is an accredited stallion with them. If I can see my way clear to do so with him, the intention would be to take him to the RPSI inspection in the fall as well and then I believe that will also allow him to get CWHBA papers as well. :)

So - if I did go forward with the Oldenburg colt, he would also go through the approval processes that made the most sense for him as well

Thank you again

[Formosus]

Is it another Cremello? I agree with all the other poster about having him approved and all that but I don't think we need another cremello. If we could get a Perlino now that would be cool!!!

[mistyjewell]

I agree with the above. I have been looking around at some of the dilutes over here in NA, and they are either full TBs with no other regestries but JC available to a mare owner (I have a JC mare, but there are no cremello TBs near me that I would ship my mare to for LC, I like Red Fox Farms stallions (as I know you do! lol) and the west coast of Canada is def. to far for me)

My TB mare is RPSI and OLD N/A approved, so if I was going to breed to a cremello stallion I'd want it approved with one of them, or a TB on the east coast that I like. Not to mention in general I prefer AI to LC anyway.

Isn't Blue Eyed Dream also approved? Or is he in Eurpope? I can't remember. But it seems to me that all the Cremellos that are also WB approved are over in Europe and would need to use frozen for them. So I know if it was a correct and well bred Cremello I'd be interested. Although this guy sounds young, and my mares getting old, so I may need to wait for a new generation, lol. You just have to promise to give more details if you do decide to get him!

[Mozart]

Some day I need to learn something about colour (having owned only mostly plain bays for oh..20 or so years....) so I know what the heck you all are talking about.....

[Nootka]

I think that there would indeed be a market...

as long as the stallion was actually competing successfully in something!!!! (and I don't mean in hand stuff)



I have to agree with this. The colt is also GOV so I would hope he would go through approvals with this Registry. I am pretty sure who the colt is and to answer your question YES YES YES bring him. Are you going to stand to dilute mares? Please don't say no like all like the others

[Nootka]

Isn't Blue Eyed Dream also approved? Or is he in Eurpope? I can't remember.
He is now in Book I of RPSI and in Fla

[Sixth Sense]

If the stallion is approved with a recognized, reputable association AND continues on showing then yes, there is a market. I think there is no market for one just based on his coat color alone...

[Donella]

Will you present him to Oldenburg?

[Janet]

Are there enough bay WBs in the NA market?

[Nootka]

Will you present him to Oldenburg?

I soooo hope she does:yes:

I have to also say that there are only 2 double dilutes that I would breed 2 in NA. The majority of these stallions are trash IMO. No show records no ........anything but babies babies babies. I would love to see a great cremello GOV stallion with a great show record over fences/dressage/eventing.

The only 2 stallions with WB approval are

Limit Hurry~~~approved RPSI
http://www.wolfrunfarm.com/WRF1131.htm

Blue Eyed Dream~~~~approved RPSI
http://www.palominowarmbloods.com/blueeyeddream.html

I really like Mirabeau. He is only in book II in RPSI. Does anyone know why? He seems to doing very well in the jumpers.
http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Mirabeau1.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Approved single dilutes

Blonder Hans~~~RPSI
http://www.heavensgatestable.com/N_Stallions.htm

CA Chablis~~~Oldenburg Stallion ~~~ approved with RPSI. They are not worried about breeding him they are concentrating on his dressage
http://www.fieldstonefarm.biz/breeding_services.htm

Who else is there? What about Main Mare Book Mares? Now I am just very curious as to how many approved Stallions/mares there are in the USA/Canada/South America

sorry not trying to hijack

[SMMP]

I dont believe in having single or double dilute stallions just entering the breeding shed without doing something either! ;)


Evidence would suggest the contrary.

A brief stint at Training level eventing does not constitute an achievement. :no:

[RiddleMeThis]

Some day I need to learn something about colour (having owned only mostly plain bays for oh..20 or so years....) so I know what the heck you all are talking about.....
Well Ill try and start you off. A double dilute is a horse that has two copies of the cream gene. When a chestnut based horse has one copy of the cream gene he turns into a palomino, and then when a chestnut based horse gets two copies of the cream gene he is a cremello.

When a bay horse has one copy of cream he is a buckskin, and then once he has two copies of cream he is a perlino.

When a black horse has one copy of cream they are a smokey black, and once they have two copies of cream they are a smokey cream.

Black + one copy = smokey black
Black + two copies = smokey cream
Bay + one copy = buckskin
Bay + two copies = perlino
Chestnut + one copy = palomino
Chestnut + two copies = cremello

Hope that cleared some of it up for you.

[Mozart]

Well Ill try and start you off. A double dilute is a horse that has two copies of the cream gene. When a chestnut based horse has one copy of the cream gene he turns into a palomino, and then when a chestnut based horse gets two copies of the cream gene he is a cremello.

When a bay horse has one copy of cream he is a buckskin, and then once he has two copies of cream he is a perlino.

When a black horse has one copy of cream they are a smokey black, and once they have two copies of cream they are a smokey cream.

Black + one copy = smokey black
Black + two copies = smokey cream
Bay + one copy = buckskin
Bay + two copies = perlino
Chestnut + one copy = palomino
Chestnut + two copies = cremello

Hope that cleared some of it up for you.

Why thank you.
Since I believe I slept through the Mendelian genetics portion of biology, would I be correct in saying that a double dilute is then far more likely to pass on a cream gene to his offspring?

[spacely]

double dilute is then far more likely to pass on a cream gene to his offspring?

Double Dilute will always pass a cream gene to the offspring.

[RiddleMeThis]

Double Dilute will always pass a cream gene to the offspring.
Yep. Since every gene comes in pairs of twos a double dilute only has cream to pass on to his offspring.

[MagicRoseFarm]

It may be more financially feasible to leave him IN Europe until he finishes his 2 1/2 Y.o. Licensing... then decide from there what to do next,.,,

[tri]

Blue Eyed Dream is also approved AWR.

Yes - the intention would be to get him approved once he is old enough to do so. I dont believe in having single or double dilute stallions just entering the breeding shed without doing something either!

I think if he is a performance horse and is NOT approved by a "reputable" registry, you will get a lot of breedings. As you can see by the postings, you will have to take him around to a lot of registries, paying a lot of fees just to get a breeding or two from each one - part of our broken system. Your Canadian registry is doing very well. I hate to see people saying things like, "And I know that the CSHA approval process might not be as highly regarded as the European registry ones are.." Support your studbook.

[Centerline Farm]

For myself, if a stallion is registered Oldenburg and comes from Oldenburg bloodlines (primarily) I am always suspicious when they are only approved RPSI or AWR or something like that.

Same for Han.

With Dutch I am not so very suspicious, because, honestly, they NEVER (or hardly ever) approve anything that is not born on Dutch soil anyways.

But bottom line is that if the parent registry does not think the horse is good enough to be a stallion, then maybe the owner should look at that a little bit.

[TrueColours]

It may be more financially feasible to leave him IN Europe until he finishes his 2 1/2 Y.o. Licensing... then decide from there what to do next,.,,


hmmm ... that IS a consideration but I havent bought him yet! ;)

Your Canadian registry is doing very well. I hate to see people saying things like, "And I know that the CSHA approval process might not be as highly regarded as the European registry ones are.." Support your studbook.

tri - you know something? You are 100% correct. I think we just get so used to hearing it we actually start to believe it ourselves ... thank you

For myself, if a stallion is registered Oldenburg and comes from Oldenburg bloodlines (primarily) I am always suspicious when they are only approved RPSI or AWR or something like that.


I agree with that as well ...

So - along those same lines, my TB cremello stallion is approved CSHA. Would the RPSI approval mean anything "better" as far as approvals go, or does it simply give RPSI mare owners a valid venue specifically for them, to get their foals registered in their registry of choice?

Wow. Welcome *new* poster SMMP. What an honor that you chose to make your first post on COTH on *MY* thread. I am so flattered ... :lol:

I guess if my TB stallion's achievements were good enough to get him accredited with the CSHA and SWANA is now looking to approve him based on those credentials as well for breeding to a Swedish mare, ya know something? Thats good enough for me ... ;) ... and it seems good enough for my clients as well ... From what I can ascertain, that leaves Guaranteed Gold, Blue Eyed Dream and Limit Hurry as the ONLY approved double dilute stallions in North America as well ... :yes:

[3Dogs]

sigh - let's not go there AGAIN!!!

True Colors - you posted on a public forum a question. People answered. You can cherry pick the answers you choose to respond to but there have been many others. If you DON'T want to hear the answers, then don't post the question.

[monami]

For myself, if a stallion is registered Oldenburg and comes from Oldenburg bloodlines (primarily) I am always suspicious when they are only approved RPSI or AWR or something like that.

Same for Han.



The Hanoverians will not approve a dilute or "off" color. RPSI to me is equivalent to Old for the most part you just have to make sure you are not looking at animals in Book II as that is only a "recording" book and a lot of confusion comes from that.

I personally do not know of any approved dilute warmblood stallions for the hunter ring.

[mistyjewell]

The problem with a stallion only being canadian warmblood approved for breeding is that there are not a lot of inspections or classes in the US for that breed. If you want to breed soley to a Canadian Market, then that's fine, but if you want to breed to the lower states, you need to have a registry available for them as well to be able to promote them well down here. That isn't to say that there is anything wrong with the Canadian Registry, just that it's not a viable option for a large population of mare owners. If you get him approved RPSI or OLD, it opens the stallion up to breedings from the States AND Europe, as RPSI and Oldenburg are approved registries over there as well.

RPSI is really taking off in this country, and they are really revamping their stallion approval system and bookkeeping, so I wouldn't say that's an inferior registry, especially as their testing is getting more popular etc. Just some things you'd like to think about.

I think keeping him there in Europe could be good too, then you could decide which registry to take him to, as the stallion tests from over there are accepted by multiple regitries, or you'd have to do the 100dt over here for close to that equivilant. I belive if he was approved over in Europe, mareowners could pay an outside stallion fee to breed to him and approve their offspring (provided his pedigree and mares approval in a registry) and get the foal full approved in other registries even if he isn't an active member (I may be incorrect on that though) So I think that could be a good option.

[In The Gate]

As others have said, IF the stallion has what it takes to compete and succeed, and you're prepared to do that with him to prove his value -- bring him! If you're only planning on showing him for a season, then sending him to stud, don't bother.

[Blonde Filly]

Evidence would suggest the contrary.

A brief stint at Training level eventing does not constitute an achievement. :no:


SMMP Welcome to the COTH BB!!!! :D

[Peace of Cake]

If this is the colt that I am thinking it may be, will he be recognized by Oldenburg in the US? If he looks better than any wb cremello on the market now, he might be worth considering. But some of those other cremellos were bred by the same person, and I personally don't care for that stock at all. And that is only my opinion.

I have no idea what the price tag is on this colt, but don't you think maybe you could find a colt 10 times better that is a blingy chestnut or bay? I would rather breed to the latter.

[SilverBalls]

Chugga Chugga Chugga Chugga ... Chugga Chugga Chugga Chugga ... Woo Woo! :lol:

[SHWarmblood]

...I came across a fabulous WB (Oldenburg) yearling colt in Europe with impeccable bloodlines and everything else SO right about him, that I am actually seriously considering importing him to stand in Canada.

First, I think it's important to note that he's already a yearling. So if he didn't sell as a weanling, or if all of a sudden now the breeder wants to sell him instead of keeping him for him/herself, shouldn't that raise red flags?

Secondly, if this is the colt that everyone seems to *think* they know (myself included), I don't see the "impeccable bloodlines" anywhere in his immediate pedigree... No Donnerhall, Weltmeyer, Florestan, Sandro, Argentinus, Pik, Grannus, Landgraf, Corde, Lord... (just pulling names from the Oldenburger Pferde website from their approved stallions). I don't think using names in the 4th and 5th generation really constitutes an "impeccable bloodline".

Of course, I could completely have the wrong colt and perhaps there is another one that does have impeccable bloodlines that is for sale...?

[spacely]

First, I think it's important to note that he's already a yearling. So if he didn't sell as a weanling, or if all of a sudden now the breeder wants to sell him instead of keeping him for him/herself, shouldn't that raise red flags?

Secondly, if this is the colt that everyone seems to *think* they know (myself included), I don't see the "impeccable bloodlines" anywhere in his immediate pedigree... No Donnerhall, Weltmeyer, Florestan, Sandro, Argentinus, Pik, Grannus, Landgraf, Corde, Lord... (just pulling names from the Oldenburger Pferde website from their approved stallions). I don't think using names in the 4th and 5th generation really constitutes an "impeccable bloodline".

...so it seems we're back to a colt that can produce color & not much else....:no:

I'd love a DD hunter producing stallion, but I don't see it happening. When you breed for color, quality seems to go out the door as is very evident given what stands in North America already.

[SilverBalls]

When you breed for color, quality seems to go out the door

I disagree, and I am not sure you are in a position to make a such a statement.
That being said, the OP is asking if there would be a market for A WB double dilute stallion .... I like "horses of a different color".... and no one can predict talent! When it comes to performing, and trying to take all pre-dispositions into consideration... the breeding game is still a crap shoot... :cool:

What a nice sunny, warm, and lovely day! ;)

[spacely]

I disagree, and I am not sure you are in a position to make a such a statement.
That being said, the OP is asking if there would be a market for A WB double dilute stallion .... I like "horses of a different color".... and no one can predict talent! When it comes to performing, and trying to take all pre-dispositions into consideration... the breeding game is still a crap shoot... :cool:

What a nice sunny, warm, and lovely day! ;)

Difference of opinion Bill. That's all. I'm not getting into it as I am in no mood to do so. I have seen a very few dilutes that I do like.

It is a beautiful day...:yes:

[Galileo1998]

Seems like quite a big leap to make that he has nothing to offer other than colour isn't it? Whoever this colt is has a sire and dam of sufficient quality and pedigree to be approved by the GOV.

As for a brief stint at Training level not being an accomplishment...well...it's enough to get lifetime approval with the ATA for a stallion to complete a Training level event so they must think otherwise. :)

[monami]

Seems like quite a big leap to make that he has nothing to offer other than colour isn't it? Whoever this colt is has a sire and dam of sufficient quality and pedigree to be approved by the GOV.

As for a brief stint at Training level not being an accomplishment...well...it's enough to get lifetime approval with the ATA for a stallion to complete a Training level event so they must think otherwise. :)


I agree Galileo. There are many approved stallions out there that has no real competition record to speak of and have produced winners.

[tri]

so it seems we're back to a colt that can produce color & not much else.

Hmm, seems a few posters think that having approval with the "reputable" warmblood registries means little to nothing - so much for the mistaken idea that these registries breed horses for the olympic disciplines and that the approval process is what makes the difference in breeding higher quality horses than those pitiful registries that just automatically register the offspring of two registered parents.

[SilverBalls]

At the end of the day... I personally could care less about approvals and registries. As long as the horse moves and jumps good for the hunter ring... that's all I care about. If I prefer a palomino or buckskin that day... so be it.

I have been in the dark bay & gray mood lately. :D

I understand why breeders feel they need to rely on registries and approvals. Some breeders hold certain organizations in a higher regard than others... who's to say?

But this "my registry is better than your registry", or "my approval is better than your approval" is a joke. :lol:

It's almost like breeding a dressage stallion to a hunter bred mare to get a horse that will jump well.... or breeding a jumper stallion to a dressage mare to get a horse that will excell in dressage... or breeding a cremello/dilute stallion to a bay hunter mare to get a bucksin hunter... who are any of us to judge?
The color breeders, the dressage breeders, the hunter breeders.... you are all breeding for a purpose to the best of your ability... aren't you? :confused:

[3Dogs]

There appears to be a market for all kinds - I guess it would depend which market you think the stallion would appeal to, how big that market is, and whether that is sufficient for the plan. Appears from the responses that many would not be interested, but some would!

As to this
"There are many approved stallions out there that has no real competition record to speak of and have produced winners"

I think that bloodlines are banked on. While this particular son of lines x,y,z may not be a dazzler in the show ring, or have done much showing, x,y,and z have produced winners. And they did have to show something to get approved, did they not?

My personal preference is some show record. If not shown due to youth or injury, then approval scores and bloodlines, or offspring if available to evaluate.

[mistyjewell]

But this "my registry is better than your registry", or "my approval is better than your approval" is a joke

I wasn't trying to say that, I just said a lit of mare owners have registred mares, and want registered offspring to prove pedigree etc, not to mention there are classes specific to some breeds for youngsters which is nice. I didn't say there was any one better then another, just that if someone was going to market to the United States, the best bet would be to go with a registry that is an option in the US. I'm lucky that there are GOV, OLD NA, RPSI, AHS, AWS, AWR, and Dutch inspections/kuerings all withing an hour of me or so, and if I really liked a stallion, I could take my mare to any of those, but there are no Canadian Sport Horse inspections anywhere near me (are there any in the US? I honestly don't know) I was just suggesting it as a more marketable to this market, if that was the desire.

[loshad]

Of course one could, were one in the mood to do so, argue that a stallion doing a brief stint at training level eventing is still better than a stallion doing nothing much at all in a field...

[SilverBalls]

mistyjewell... you have put much thought into your program which is successful for you, and great for the person who is lucky enough to get the offspring you produce.
There is a market out there for everyone. I am hopelessly addicted to horses, and I need a point in which to start...
I set out to buy the best ( my opinion only ) of what my "flavor of the month" may be.
I search sites, keep a list of babies "in the oven" that interest me. I am very superficial in my selections. I start with the Stallion... a first impression, then an an indication of their jumping ability ( instincts are instincts ) ... then the find a mare that is bred to a favorite ... and only look at colts.
Then conformation followed by movement... both must be perfect in my eyes as well as the professionals I confer with. If not ... I keep moving!

I realize it's tough to be a breeder these days with all the liabilities and huge expense involved. I don't know how many of you do it. :eek:

[Beezer]

I disagree, and I am not sure you are in a position to make a such a statement.


Well, I feel I am! :D After looking at all the WB and TB double dilutes out there now and not being ... impressed ... I went with a lovely AQHA cremello who has his ROM in hunters under saddle and a couple of other things. Besides, his stud fee was a fraction of the WBs' and TBs' fees, and since I'm one of those hunter people who don't care about papers, he was the perfect fit. And my resulting light palomino colt out of my huge Alla'Czar mare is all I could have wished for.

So, is there a market for a DD? Yes ... because the quality isn't there for those of us looking for something different. But just because we are looking for something different does not mean that we will sacrifice quality to get it.

[SilverBalls]

Beezer... that's wonderful... any pictures? What a clever cross.... :yes:

[DancingAppy]

Beezer, I was going to ask you that too. Who was the AQHA stud?

[buschkn]

I am a sucker for a buckskin, myself. BUT, I agree that it seems a lot of DDs are bred (not jst stallions, mares, too!) just based on their color. I saw a mare with TERRIBLE conformation who was a unique color and they were boasting about it being the "only xxx mare in yyy reg" etc. I would consider a DD sire if it actually had good bloodlines and proven sport ability. I think there could be a market, possibly. Depends how deep you want to get into it on the WB side, I guess. Good luck with your decision!

[Donella]

I honestly don't want to offend anyone but to get a large quality wb mare base you will need to have him approved with a serious, tough registry. If the stallion cannot pass the GOV approvals and that is his breed then he should be gelded. Alot of the registries discussed approve anything with four legs. I think what alot of people are saying is that there is a market for one who stands out from the other dilute wb type stallions out there who aren't considered good enough by their own birth registries.

I also wouldn't use CSHA for a wb stallion. For tb..yes. WB..no.

[Jessi P]

Beezer, I third the comments asking for more info on the AQHA stallion you chose. :winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

Inquiring minds want to know. :cool::D:lol::yes:

[tri]

who aren't considered good enough by their own birth registries.

Hmm, that would include Rubinstein who was not approved by his Westfalien registry, and, how about Voltaire who was not approved by his Hanoverian registry....on and on.

[TrueColours]

I also wouldn't use CSHA for a wb stallion. For tb..yes. WB..no.


I am curious. Why?

Considering these WB stallions found the CSHA "good enough" to gain approval in this registry and found a valid reason to do so - I am curious why you feel it should only be geared towards TB stallions instead???

Balou du Rouet
Baloubet du Rouet
CABARDINO
DOUBLE DIAMOND
FOR JUMP
FRENCHMAN
FUTURIST
IKOON
ILIAN DE TAUTE
IRONMAN
JAMESTOWN
MONEY TALKS
NOVALIS
POPEYE K
RIO GRANDE
Rolls Royce
VIVA VOLTAIRE
WESTPORTE

With many of these stallions licensed and approved in other registries as well as being highly regarded stallions overall, I would think that their owners saw merit and value in having them CSHA approved and accredited as well - no?

[imajacres]

Well, I had two of my German boys (frozen semen) approved CSHA and it was purely a client service thing, for the Canadian mare owners. Both these stallions are approved almost everything in Europe, and their owners had no interest in CHSA, but at the same time said if it helped me sell semen, then I could go ahead.
And it isnt any more of a procedure than sending in their German licensing proof, and their 100 day test/ international showing results, and some pictures and quite a bit of money. They are basically "grandfathered" in.

I know for myself that I want the stallions I breed to to be affiliated with the big European registries first, then if they are also with the smaller ones, or Canadian ones that is nice, but not a deal clincher, and that is because my mares are registered in the big German books.
This gives me the most options.

But back to the OP's question- I am not into colour as a choosing factor, but if the stallion is licensed and approved with a major European registry, and suits my breeding purposes due to his/offspring's results and suitability for my mare, yet happens to be "purple", yes I would use him.
SO it really depends on the horse himself.

[Donella]

What I am getting at tri is if the major, most respected registries wont touch him, in my books, he isnt good enough. That is my opinion. I wouldn't breed any of my mares to a stallion who cannot pass a very tough and rigorous selection process. That is my opinion and I am going to make a wild guess and say that is likely the feeling of most of the breeders who own top wb mares.

Anyways..TC, I think CSHA is more of a hunter type registry. At least that is how it comes across to alot of Canadians. Those stallions listed there are part of it because its another mare base PLUS, again, most of those stallions are jumper/hunter sires. Maybe I am wrong but for the most part CSHA is rather unheard of south of the border and if I had a wb stallion and I wanted a good amount of quality mares I would have him approved with one of the major, tough registries. JMHO.

Plus...ask yourself this: How many GOV or Dutch or Holstein approved dilute wb stallions are there in NA? I dont think ANY. You would really be in a good place if you could do that!

[TrueColours]

Anyways..TC, I think CSHA is more of a hunter type registry. At least that is how it comes across to alot of Canadians. Those stallions listed there are part of it because its another mare base PLUS, again, most of those stallions are jumper/hunter sires. Maybe I am wrong but for the most part CSHA is rather unheard of south of the border and if I had a wb stallion and I wanted a good amount of quality mares I would have him approved with one of the major, tough registries. JMHO.


I think because the CSHA used to be known as the "The Canadian Hunter Improvement Society" it has followed through to this day that it is predominantly or EXCLUSIVELY, a hunter registry. For better or for worse ... :) ... and even when pure jumper stallions come in with confirmed jumper bloodlines and jumper results its hard to swing away from the "hunter" perception of the registry itself

And I will agree that if you tell an American Mare Owner that your stallion is approved in the Holstein or GOV or Hanoverian registry that is something quantifiable to them - they know instantly what that means, but if you tell them your stallion is a CSHA approved stallion, they will have a harder time grasping what that really means in the big picture ...

Plus...ask yourself this: How many GOV or Dutch or Holstein approved dilute wb stallions are there in NA? I dont think ANY. You would really be in a good place if you could do that!

Interesting and very correct as well ... :)

[FriesianX]

Right now, buckskin is "hot" - so, is there a market for a DD? Right now, probably yes... Color sells - I've run into people over and over who ask about color FIRST, whose number one criteria in shopping is color. But, in the long run, hot colors come and go, while classical and correct conformation, mind, and movement last forever... So, if you find a DD who is the "whole package", then there should be a long term market for such a stallion.

I agree, there aren't many DDs breeding right now who are showing and performing and have the gaits and conformation PLUS the color. Not saying there are none, just not too many...

[Oakstable]

It's my impression that the major European-based registeries strongly favor the traditional colors of black, bay, chestnut and grey, and color is discriminated against.

The American market likes what it likes. Color included.

[traklover]

My answer would be yes if he is elegible for inspection/registration with a European based Registry. Honestly if it was my money......I would probably buy him and keep him in Germany(I assume) until he had completed his 100 day test. I would import him after he is approved. Board is not hugely expensive in Europe and you would have access to a much more economical trainer base. I was recently quoted 5000 Euro's to put a stallion prospect through the test all inclusive(however this was reflects a "friendship discount)

One my friends put her stallion through some N/A based registries such as the RPSI, she indicated by the time she paid for everything (board, airfare, horse transport) the RPSI test was close to 10,000.

She also has paid 2000/month in states for training of her current stallion.

[SueL]

mistyjewell... you have put much thought into your program which is successful for you, and great for the person who is lucky enough to get the offspring you produce.
There is a market out there for everyone. I am hopelessly addicted to horses, and I need a point in which to start...
I set out to buy the best ( my opinion only ) of what my "flavor of the month" may be.
I search sites, keep a list of babies "in the oven" that interest me. I am very superficial in my selections. I start with the Stallion... a first impression, then an an indication of their jumping ability ( instincts are instincts ) ... then the find a mare that is bred to a favorite ... and only look at colts.
Then conformation followed by movement... both must be perfect in my eyes as well as the professionals I confer with. If not ... I keep moving!

I realize it's tough to be a breeder these days with all the liabilities and huge expense involved. I don't know how many of you do it. :eek:

Having been on the breeding end and the selecting end, I <b> do </b> look at bloodlines, because I do think there are certain important "family traits" I find it every bit as valuable when looking at young 'uns on the ground as it was when selecting breeding stock; the advantage is that selecting young 'uns is not quite the crapshoot that selecting gametes was. LOL.

Sue

[alexandra]

Sue offtopic but who is it you qoute in your signature line ?

[Beezer]

... and NOT to hijack the thread ...

I added some pictures of our Cowboy to my chronicleofmyhorse page (which I admit I don't use much, LOL!); they're here: http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/profile/Jill58

The stallion we went with is Zippo Vanilla Bar; he's actually being marketed at the Arab world since colored Half-Arabs are all the rage (who knew??). We had a couple of key things we were trying to improve on the mare and so far, it looks like we have. Now, I well know that ZVB will absolutely NOT be for everyone, but I really liked the fact that he got his ROM (register of merit) in hunters under saddle as well as other events (he even does roping! :lol: ) and has been handled by amateur owners his whole career, which speaks incredibly to his disposition (a VERY important thing to me!) -- and he has clearly passed on to our colt, who is a doll.

Also, please keep in mind that I bred this foal for myself. I plan on keeping him and riding him and showing him and loving him in my senior years (and, yes, there is a castration in his future ;) ). This isn't a cross that everyone would like, and I don't expect them to. But for me and my goals, it appears to have worked out exactly as planned. If Cowboy looks just as nice by the time he's a yearling, I'll likely breed the mare back to Zippo Vanilla Bar.

As to the OP, as you can see, there are all kinds of mare owners out there -- as you already know. We all have different wants and needs. I truly believe that we are all striving to produce what is, to us, the right horse for us. If the stallion prospect you are looking at would be a stallion prospect if he were plain chestnut (NOT that there's anything wrong with a plain chestnut!) then if all the other important factors that make him a stallion in your mind align, then that's your answer.

[Molly Malone]

Sue offtopic but who is it you qoute in your signature line ?

Charles de Knuffy's younger, more handsome and better upholstered cousin, Charles de Comfy (spelled Kunffy in Austria)

[holsteinersrock]

Color is icing on the cake. But you need to be sure you do have the cake first!

I would also take into consideration our abysmal economy, gas prices, hay shortage on the East Coast, slaughter ban... folks are offering free breedings, giving horses a way, turning them loose.... so it would have to be a really exceptional stallion to make all the expense worth-while.

Finally, it's a matter of taste. Black is always great, as is black bay, chrome sells, some people prefer dapple grey. Buckskin, pinto, palomino... very much loved by Western riders but not always by WB breeders.

A good horse is a good horse.

Anna

[Oakstable]

The OP is in Canada. Their economy apprently is doing just fine. Our abyssmal economy may not be a major consideration in bringing a stallion into Canada.

[tri]

The so-called abyssmal economy is also not in all area in the U.S. Our state and very much our county is booming, more record highs on the stock market this week and interest rates low low low. We own several companies and 2007 was the best out of the last three years and beat it by a long shot. First quarter 2008 cranked along at a whirlwind pace as well. As major corporations' earnings are starting to come out - as the nay-sayers are now saying - "better than expected", more and more economists are backing off their forecasts of "possible" recession. Horses are selling around here and for good prices. We have one being vetted next week.

[Oakstable]

My area was one of the fastest growing in the country so it is abysmal here with the collapse of the housing market.

Gas is $4/gal. and people commute LONG distances.

[Donella]

If the stallion is just being marketed to the Canadian mare base I don't know of another dilute stallion with CWHBA or CSH...but why not appeal to everyone at the same time:).

It is true that some registries would not consider him though because of his color. Hanover wont...not sure about any others?

I also want to second that Canada's economy is full steam ahead right now, so....

[DownYonder]

I am not a fan of breeding for color, but I do realize that many people put color at the top of their list when making breeding decisions. I would think that a very good quality dilute WB stallion that is approved by a major WB registry would be of interest to many WB mare owners.

Bear in mind though that just because the colt is registered as an Oldenburg does not mean he will get approved by Oldenburg. Oldenburg in Germany has a distinct preference for dark-coated stallions, esp. when talking about dressage stallions, and a distinct dislike for "colored" stallions. Also remember that Oldenburg (GOV) turned down Blonder Hans when he was presented here a few years ago. I imagine that a double dilute stallion would have to be of incredibly good quality with excellent bloodlines to get the nod from Oldenburg inspectors.

[Sixth Sense]

Also, not trying to hijack the thread but in doing a search completely unrelated, I came across this colt who has super bloodlines (Dutch). Not sure if he's "stallion" quality as he is quite young but he certainly caught my eye. He's here (in US) and he's a buckskin which has always been a weakness of mine...

[Nootka]

ahhhh yes, the Goodtimes colt. He is a cutie:yes:

[dorthyinoz]

I also want to second that Canada's economy is full steam ahead right now, so....

Didn't i just hear the other day that Canada is officially in a recession? (I'm in Ontario if that makes any difference)

[belambi]

may I politely suggest that if you are buying a DD ..(particularly a perlino) that you go to the trouble of agouti testing before purchase.. and only buy if it AA and are also aware of whether it is Ee or EE.. The amount of people around australia who have bred smokey blacks.. which are nice but not what they are after is amazing!! it would be an excellent marketing point.. get very tired of people gauranteeing buckskin from perlinos without testing them!

[Donella]

Didn't i just hear the other day that Canada is officially in a recession? (I'm in Ontario if that makes any difference)

Well, Alberta is full steam ahead at least.

[FriesianX]

Didn't i just hear the other day that Canada is officially in a recession? (I'm in Ontario if that makes any difference)

Well, Alberta is full steam ahead at least.


Alberta has OIL!!!

[pintopiaffe]

As major corporations' earnings are starting to come out - as the nay-sayers are now saying - "better than expected", more and more economists are backing off their forecasts of "possible" recession.

Could you please indicate where? and what buisinesses? As I brace for a pay CUT by the time our 3% raises go through, but the hike in insurance is more than that... and I stock up on oodles of noodles because grain, hay and suppliment prices have doubled and tripled. DOG FOOD went up $10 a BAG in THREE WEEKS.

Then again, I've always said I'm very out of place on this board. :dead:

</hijack> This statement just startled me outright. :cry:

[Centerline Farm]

Didn't i just hear the other day that Canada is officially in a recession? (I'm in Ontario if that makes any difference)

Hmmm. No. On the contrary, Canada's economy is too hot.

The dollar is too high and that is bad for Canada. It is much better when our dollar is weak. Ontario is closely tied in to the US economy (manufacturing) so if the US is hurting, which it really is contrary to Tri's misguided and rather odd statements, then Ontario has some problems. That is why the feds have been frantically trying to lower our dollar.

And we have record low unemployment. In fact, we are trying to import workers from Mexico and Asia to work as we just don't have enough people for all the jobs...

The rest of Canada is smoking hot - economy wise, not weather wise. It is record cold in BC now. Disgusting.

[tri]

which it really is contrary to Tri's misguided and rather odd statements, then Ontario has some problems.

Not sure what you mean when you say my statements regarding corporate earnings are "misguided". All you have to do is look it up - it isn't hiding anywhere:

For you and Pintopiaffe:

Coke: In April, 2008 - Came out with a WHOPPING 21% rise in revenues and a WHOPPING 19% increase in profits for 1st quarter 2008. Financial experts describe revenues as "soaring" with no end in sight.

Best Buy: In April, 2008 - The U.S. largest consumer electronic retailer posted better than expected 4th quarter 2007 earnings beating the street and better than the per share earnings from 2006. For the fiscal year, revenue WAS UP 11% OVER A YEAR AGO. They opened 137 new retail outlets.

Aflac - In April, 2008 - Share trading up after posting 1st quarter profits HIGHER THAN EXPECTED. The stock hit an ALL TIME HIGH last week.

Hewlett-Packard - In Feb, 2008 - Stocks soared after the world's largest computer company reported bettter than expected fiscal first quarter profit. NET PROFIT ROSE 38% - yes, I posted 38% rise in profits from a year earlier. The company added more than 2,000 sales positions in the past year

Google - In April, 2008 - Google turned in higher profits and revenue than Wall Street expected and shares jumped 17% with the announcement in after hours trading and 18% the next morning. Gross sales WERE UP 42% FROM A YEAR AGO.

Yahoo - In April, 2008 - As widely predicted, Yahoo surpassed analysts' expectations for 1st quarter rvenues with a 14% INCREASE OVER 1ST QUARTER LAST YEAR.

Amazon - In April, 2008 - Reported NET INCOME IN THE FIRST QUARTER ROSE 30% - yes 30% from a year ago. Sales climbed 37% above expectations of Wall Street analysts. Amazon announced that they are expecting sales to rise another 29%-35% for 2008.

Archer Daniels Midland - In April, 2008 - Quarterly profits rose 42% - yes, 42%!

CBS - April, 2008 - reported greater than expected rise in earnings and boosted their dividend by 8%

Other companies - I'm getting tired of listing them - that beat the street with better than expected earnings are Visa, BMW, Verizon, Microsoft, Goodyear, American Express, Amgen, Ford (yes Ford Motor Company turned a great profit - first time in a year), and Apple.

Oh, here is a great tidbit: 271 companies in the S&P500 have reported earnings for Q1 2008. Of those 271 companies, 63% HAVE BEATEN ESTIMATES with much better than anticipated revenues/profits, 13% came out with earnings that were in-line with expectations and only 24% missed their projections.

So much for being "misguided"

[mistyjewell]

Well back to the OP, I think that the same farm just had another Cremello oldenburg colt born this year, although obviously it hasn't been to an approval yet. So it might be worth waiting a little and seeing which of the 2 would be the nicest. (same sire, different dams)

[Centerline Farm]

Not sure what you mean when you say my statements regarding corporate earnings are "misguided". All you have to do is look it up - it isn't hiding anywhere:

For you and Pintopiaffe:

Coke: In April, 2008 - Came out with a WHOPPING 21% rise in revenues and a WHOPPING 19% increase in profits for 1st quarter 2008. Financial experts describe revenues as "soaring" with no end in sight.

Best Buy: In April, 2008 - The U.S. largest consumer electronic retailer posted better than expected 4th quarter 2007 earnings beating the street and better than the per share earnings from 2006. For the fiscal year, revenue WAS UP 11% OVER A YEAR AGO. They opened 137 new retail outlets.

Aflac - In April, 2008 - Share trading up after posting 1st quarter profits HIGHER THAN EXPECTED. The stock hit an ALL TIME HIGH last week.

Hewlett-Packard - In Feb, 2008 - Stocks soared after the world's largest computer company reported bettter than expected fiscal first quarter profit. NET PROFIT ROSE 38% - yes, I posted 38% rise in profits from a year earlier. The company added more than 2,000 sales positions in the past year

Google - In April, 2008 - Google turned in higher profits and revenue than Wall Street expected and shares jumped 17% with the announcement in after hours trading and 18% the next morning. Gross sales WERE UP 42% FROM A YEAR AGO.

Yahoo - In April, 2008 - As widely predicted, Yahoo surpassed analysts' expectations for 1st quarter rvenues with a 14% INCREASE OVER 1ST QUARTER LAST YEAR.

Amazon - In April, 2008 - Reported NET INCOME IN THE FIRST QUARTER ROSE 30% - yes 30% from a year ago. Sales climbed 37% above expectations of Wall Street analysts. Amazon announced that they are expecting sales to rise another 29%-35% for 2008.

Archer Daniels Midland - In April, 2008 - Quarterly profits rose 42% - yes, 42%!

CBS - April, 2008 - reported greater than expected rise in earnings and boosted their dividend by 8%

Other companies - I'm getting tired of listing them - that beat the street with better than expected earnings are Visa, BMW, Verizon, Microsoft, Goodyear, American Express, Amgen, Ford (yes Ford Motor Company turned a great profit - first time in a year), and Apple.

Oh, here is a great tidbit: 271 companies in the S&P500 have reported earnings for Q1 2008. Of those 271 companies, 63% HAVE BEATEN ESTIMATES with much better than anticipated revenues/profits, 13% came out with earnings that were in-line with expectations and only 24% missed their projections.

So much for being "misguided"




You know Tri-

You are the person who looks out their window and says "oh look, its raining. There can't be drought in Africa". :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

For every company that shows a profit, I can show you equally as many, in fact MORE that did not. :no::no:

A few companies doing well does NOT an economy make. Didn't you learn anything in school??? The economy is tied into so many different factors it is ridiculous. A few companies showing profits really means nothing.

At any rate, unless you post references, then you are merely stating opinions.

I know you think you know more (about everything) than anyone else in the planet, and I suppose in your own world you do. But here is an excellent reference about the economic outlook for the US if you would care to take the time to actually read it...

http://www.bmonesbittburns.com/economics/forecast/us/usmodel.pdf

And since you mention the S&P500, here is an excellent website clearly shoing the distinct downturn of the market.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/07/business/marketwatch/main2543127.shtml
The companies that have BEATEN ESIMATES as you charmingly happily report (and that is only 35% of the 500 companies anyways), only say that because they did not fare as badly, not QUITE as badly, as expected. NOT because they are doing well. Big difference there.


And for a little view outside the box
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7351839.stm
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0417/breaking10.htm

Both very current reports.

The US is a strong country with huge GDP and will eventually bounce back. But right now there is trouble in Paradise. And that is a fact.

Completely off topic, but fun to research and I am done.

[tri]

Centerline what a stupid thing to say. The whole jist was that while some areas are hurting, other areas are booming. So, fair to say, you are the kind of person that says "Oh, there is a drought in Africa, so there can't be any flooding in the U.S. midwest."!!!

For every company that shows a profit, I can show you equally as many, in fact MORE that did not.

Last time I checked 63% was more than half, so not sure how you get to your numbers but, then again, maybe you are taking a page from the Hildabeast.

[RiddleMeThis]

Centerline what a stupid thing to say. The whole jist was that while some areas are hurting, other areas are booming.
Well then maybe you should work on the way you put your info out there, because that is NOT how it came across.

[Centerline Farm]

Centerline what a stupid thing to say. The whole jist was that while some areas are hurting, other areas are booming. So, fair to say, you are the kind of person that says "Oh, there is a drought in Africa, so there can't be any flooding in the U.S. midwest."!!!



Last time I checked 63% was more than half, so not sure how you get to your numbers but, then again, maybe you are taking a page from the Hildabeast.

This is really off topic and after this I am not going to speak on this anymore. As many have found before me arguing with people like Tri is like trying to put a cat in the bathtub - completely illogical and somewhat hysterical.

At any rate, just to address your math you wrote an unreferenced 'tidbit':

Oh, here is a great tidbit: 271 companies in the S&P500 have reported earnings for Q1 2008. Of those 271 companies, 63% HAVE BEATEN ESTIMATES with much better than anticipated revenues/profits, 13% came out with earnings that were in-line with expectations and only 24% missed their projections.

63% of 271 companies is not the same as 63% of 500 companies. Your 'factiod' is misleading and your math is wrong.

[tri]

poppycock.

You can only go by the number of companies who have reported. Of the ones that reported, that is the statistics - like it or lump it but they are the facts. There is nothing to argue.

Riddlemethis, here is a cut & paste from my post: The so-called abyssmal economy is also not in all areas in the U.S. So I believe I put it across pretty plainly.

And the rest of what I posted was pintopiaffe asking:

Could you please indicate where? and what buisinesses?

I believe I've answered and shown significant proof of what I referred to.

[EquusMagnificus]

Hrm. :winkgrin:

Well TC, will all due respect, I think that the simple fact about asking whether a DD stallion would have a market is a mistake. In such a way that if the boy is of good STALLION quality, his colour is absolutely irrelevant. ;)

Think of it as this way... would you consider him as a stallion prospect is he WASN'T a cremello?

:winkgrin:

[Nootka]

to get back on topic......

I agree.. color is just the bonus. It is hard to tell for me though about that colt because I havent seen any of his videos or other pictures. Athough, I havent asked because I dont want to watse her time as I dont have the money to purchase the colt;)

I reallllly like this stallion http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de/gfmilkyway.html
Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vznhU26LLB0

Anyway.....

My question is ... How many approved for breeding Dilute mares are there in the Main Mare books here in North/south america (I think I know of only 4... so there must be more. I am speaking of Warmbloods not TBs)? Or maybe I should open a new thread?

[TrueColours]

Hrm.

Well TC, will all due respect, I think that the simple fact about asking whether a DD stallion would have a market is a mistake. In such a way that if the boy is of good STALLION quality, his colour is absolutely irrelevant.

Think of it as this way... would you consider him as a stallion prospect is he WASN'T a cremello?


You have SUCH a way with words! :D

Yes - he appears to be of excellent quality, but since my mandate is to produce quality youngsters WITH the added bonus of colour, the colour part is 100% relevant to me and my program ...

Yes - he would absolutely be a stallion prospect if he was a plain bay or chestnut ... :)

[TrueColours]

I have to say a BIG congratulations to Aurum ... :)

Even though I was not able to buy this wonderful colt from her, I was talking with a fellow breeder in New Zealand this morning and learned that this colt has been purchased by a member of their National Eventing Team and will be competing / standing at stud with them in a few years time ...:)

With New Zealand breeding world class event horses on their own, a big thumbs up to Aurum that they thought enough of your guy to purchase him to improve upon their already successful breeding program

Congrats Gwen!

[Nootka]

Exactly:yes:

I spoke to her about that a few weeks ago when he was sold. I am very happy for you Gwen:D

[aurum]

Thanks. It looks like he will have a great home and I am happy he will be competed by a rider of the NZ Olympic Eventing Team.

[Sonesta]

Adding my congratulations to aurum and also noting that she just sent me an email announcing that she has just acquired a new few spot Knabstrupper stallion that looks wonderful!

[Nootka]

Oh wow:yes:

I hope we can see some video soon:D He is very handsome

[~Freedom~]

Some day I need to learn something about colour (having owned only mostly plain bays for oh..20 or so years....) so I know what the heck you all are talking about.....

Don't bother. Most of these threads are about some color breeder trying to promote yet again ANOTHER stud (future or present)

The OP asked if we need another colored stallion. Lets put it this way. When I look to breed or make a recommendation to a client I run as fast as I can AWAY from any breeder standing one of these type studs.

I run even faster when I see certain names repeat themselves over and over again on every horse site for if word of mouth has not got them recognized and they feel the need to resort to spam then it assures me they have nothing worthwhile.

[Nootka]

I don't understand why you must "rain" on this thread. I own a horrible Coloured warmblood and you know what???? She is approved for breeding 2 Main Mare books. If she was so bad would she be there??? No

I am sorry that you dont like the colored horses/studs but your snide remarks are not needed. Many of Gwen's horses are successful competing and sell all over the world. Even grand prix dressage rider has bought 7 now over the last years. They are just starting to compete so they promote themselves. The cremello colt Gwen just sold is now in the New Zealand with a Eventer but yet these horses are all crap? No

She doesn't boast about her horses on here. Yes, sometimes her friends do come on and say a word or 2 but it is without her knowing.

[Equilibrium]

I'd like to be another one to congratulate Gwen. She does say very words about her horses on public boards.

Her horses are out starting to do things in the world and I hope they succeed.

She's a lovely person to talk to and quite a great sense of humor. So if you want to talk about the crazy colored people, please leave her out.

Terri

[RiddleMeThis]

I don't understand why you must "rain" on this thread. I own a horrible Coloured warmblood and you know what???? She is approved for breeding 2 Main Mare books. If she was so bad would she be there??? No

I am sorry that you dont like the colored horses/studs but your snide remarks are not needed. Many of Gwen's horses are successful competing and sell all over the world. Even grand prix dressage rider has bought 7 now over the last years. They are just starting to compete so they promote themselves. The cremello colt Gwen just sold is now in the New Zealand with a Eventer but yet these horses are all crap? No

She doesn't boast about her horses on here. Yes, sometimes her friends do come on and say a word or 2 but it is without her knowing.\

Ditto completely unnecessary, and incredible rude.

[~Freedom~]

She's a lovely person to talk to and quite a great sense of humor. So if you want to talk about the crazy colored people, please leave her out.

Terri

My reference is to mainly certain "other" colored breeders. Great if this Gwen is nice but a colored stud is still the very last one I would look at no matter how many approvals they may have.

The thread according to the OP is if NA needs another DD. If you don't like the answers that are not in keeping with "oh yes we do need more DDs" then maybe the OP and others should have stated that only if you agree should you reply. I gave my answer and the reason for that answer and I am unlikely to change that opinion for the replies after my opinion only makes me more certain I have judged right.

What happens at least in my area with some breeders (and not always the color breeders but any stud owners) is that some go so overboard either in pushing color, or must go with my registry, or I have the best imported stallions that it becomes ad overload and they color the perception for those breeders that genuinely have a good stud.

Word of mouth backs up all these breeder's claims and they post appropriately.

[TrueColours]

Geez Louise Freedom, who peed in your corn flakes this morning?! :confused:

The OP asked if we need another colored stallion. Lets put it this way. When I look to breed or make a recommendation to a client I run as fast as I can AWAY from any breeder standing one of these type studs.


Well then all I can say is that your clients perhaps need to go to someone with more knowledge and less of a biased bone to pick. I dare say if this colt was good enough for me to consider purchasing, keeping in Europe to go through his approvals there and then import to Canada after he was fully approved AND he was good enough for a member of the New Zealand OLYMPIC level eventing team to end up buying, I dare say he should have been good enough for you to recommend your client, regardless of whatever colour he happened to be.

Shoot me. :rolleyes: I happen to like quality horses AND dilute colouring. Same as many of my clients do on a global basis.

This was going to be my first possible foray into standing something OTHER than full TB's with the dilute colouring with a first rate quality colt. And if you go back through this thread to the beginning, never ONCE did I mention Gwen's name. A few people guessed it was her colt, but never once did I say "I am thinking of buying Gwen's colt - what do you think?" I simply wanted to dip my toe into the water and get a feel for what the possible reaction MIGHT be if I decided to go ahead and purchase this colt and then invest a lot of time and money into getting him approved. What would the market then possibly be like for standing him in NA ... No more and no less.

So - continue to make whatever recommendations you want to your "client". Maybe one day they'll wake up and wonder why you badmouthed and/or put down stallions that are now at the top of their game with International calibre riders and you can explain that they were "one of those type of studs" ... :rolleyes: ... and the "wrong colour" to boot ...

End Equilibrium - I agree. Gwen IS a lot of fun to talk to on the phone and via email!

We were talking about a stallion that we both know that is quite good looking in his own right but is putting some gawd awfully ugly foals on the ground and we are both scratching our heads and wondering why ...

She came back with this response and Man - it is really true and makes me laugh every time I read it:

yes - in germany we would say "you never know which ancestor leaves the bus at the next station" hence be careful when breeding as it means thinking in generations!


:) :) :)

[FriesianX]

Don't bother. Most of these threads are about some color breeder trying to promote yet again ANOTHER stud (future or present)

The OP asked if we need another colored stallion. Lets put it this way. When I look to breed or make a recommendation to a client I run as fast as I can AWAY from any breeder standing one of these type studs.

I run even faster when I see certain names repeat themselves over and over again on every horse site for if word of mouth has not got them recognized and they feel the need to resort to spam then it assures me they have nothing worthwhile.

I'm with some of the others here on the board - saying you turn and run because a horse is "colored" is like saying you turn and run because a horse is Dutch Warmblood. Any such general statement from a horse person makes me want to turn and run from that person. I've seen some nice dilutes and I've seen some nice pintos - both are considered "colored" type horses. I've also seen some poor quality in the same color range. BUT - I can make the same statement about bay stallions or black stallions or chestnut stallions, or about Hannoverians or Oldenburgs, or ...

I think the OP question was an excellent question - and the discussion has been genuine. And I think it would be a similar question if one were to ask are there too many "R" line stallions in the NA Market (or some other line).

And - reality is, many people enjoy color. So if you can stand a stallion who throws a good mind, good movement, good athleticism, good conformation, and also happens to throw fun color - WHY would you turn away from such a stallion?

[RiddleMeThis]

If you don't like the answers that are not in keeping with "oh yes we do need more DDs" then maybe the OP and others should have stated that only if you agree should you reply.
You didnt just say "Yes there are too many dilute warmblood stallions on the market. You insulted everyone who owns a dilute of any sort, and ESPECIALLY stallion owners.

How is me and a few others saying that your post was completely unnecessary because it didnt even deal with the OP and was incredibly rude saying that we just want "yes" answers. If I recall correctly there were a bunch of "no" posts earlier that didnt get a response like this.

And why is that? Because they were not RUDE like you.

And I also agree with FriesanX. Im going to tell my future clients to stay away from chestnuts!! They are all BAD!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHH the evil chestnuts!!! Run everyone!!!!

[TrueColours]

Im going to tell my future clients to stay away from chestnuts!! They are all BAD!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHH the evil chestnuts!!! Run everyone!!!!


geez RMT, its people like you that perpetuate the "chestnut mares are terrible!" myth and make people run screaming away from them ... ;)

See how it all starts?! :lol:

[~Freedom~]

I think the OP question was an excellent question - and the discussion has been genuine. And I think it would be a similar question if one were to ask are there too many "R" line stallions in the NA Market (or some other line).

Oh I am sure the OP thought up a decent enough question and actually there ARE enough "R" line stallions..

[RiddleMeThis]

Oh I am sure the OP thought up a decent enough question and actually there ARE enough "R" line stallions..
Wow amazing how semi decent you can actually be when you try. You couldnt have used that line as your other post? Oh wait you have to be an ass. Sorry I forget that their are some people with no manners.