Not Sure I Can Keep Going Through The Pain

[Equilibrium]

Warning this is long, it may be bitter, and maybe there are some details which you will probably find graphic. I'm sorry, I'm mad, upset, and most of all blame myself and wish in my heart there was some way I could go back in time.

This morning we decided to turn mares and foals out together for the first time. The 2 mares and foals in question have been sharing a fence line and the foals have been having a great time running at each other and trying to touch through the fence. The mares have been grazing alongside and more importantly they have been together for a while, just obviously not recently. One of the mares is the Alpha, the other the bottom of the 4 mares. The lead mare has been out with many numerous mares and foals. She is a the true meaning of a lead mare. She keeps peace and is never viscious. So put them out and they did the gallop around and show off the new foal thing. Nothing crazy and nobody was in danger. But slowly in front of me and my husband's eyes you could see the younger mare just acting not quite right. Nothing was going on but I got an ill pit in my stomach. I said to my husband, I really hate this part because I always do. I just worry so much. The cantered up to us with foals in toe and the younger mare went for leaders mare foal. Stella, leader mare, turned on her rightly so in a way that says leave my foal alone. Didn't kick just barred her teeth and kept her away from her filly. I thought that would be the end of it really because no one challenges Stella. But in that instant, Stella's foal, slipped away from Stella to gallop off. Now away from her protection that misreable horrible bitch of a mare squared up my Iroko filly and with a horrendous kick broke the filly's leg in half. And you know what this isn't the worst part. The worst part is trying to catch the mare and foal with a broken leg. The worst part is watching your husband pretty much tackle you beautiful foal because he has to stop her running around. And then comes the unspeakable agony of waiting for your vet to get here to put her down. To think she has to lay there in agony with my husband on top of her to keep her quiet. And then I had to get that other mare and foal out of the paddock and away from the damage she inflicted.

I know you're all thinking how can I think bad about the other mare and she felt threatned, blah, blah, blah. It's a nasty mare that seeks out to hurt another foal and this is what she did. We've had this mare since she was a foal because with her breeding we couldn't have afforded her when her time came to be a broodmare. She was the one mare I thought might give us a chance to breed a very nice horse. I have been so excited about her for a few years now. She gave us a beautiful first foal, a colt. But to be honest the writing was on the wall then as she got extremely nasty with us after birth. My husband had managed to get her caught and she was good after that actually only allowing me to mess with her at all. She is a good mom so I thought well we can deal with the other. I told my husband today I want her gone. I told him she can go to the TB breeding sale in Nov. He said he can't do that because he wouldn't risk hurting someone else or someone else's foal. I know he's right and quite frankly I want to put a bullet in her head. She's never been mistreated, never mishandled and this is what we end up with.

And then there's Stella. We left her with her baby for a few hours so she could acknowledge her death. How heartwrenching is it to down the field and see your mare trying to figure out why her foal isn't getting up. Her just standing over her as if she is asleep. We waited until she walked away but she is still upset. And I know a lot of you out there are going to say not to put human emotions with horses, but I know she's hurting, of course she is. And I can't tell you how much I am not dealing with losing Daphne. Mostly because I feel this is my fault. I don't care if I'm not supposed to get attached, I miss her hugs. She gave the best hugs, she loved you to wrap your arms around her. And for the last few weeks, since she was born, it's been cold, rainy, and cloudy. Today after we had taken her away, the sun came out. Beautiful warm sun, the kind Daphne never knew.

Last year one of my foals, of the 2 born, broke her neck when hitting a gate. That was freakish and not something I could have done anything about. She also got to go painlessly without fear. So really I just wasn't ready to loose another foal however selfish that may seem. I sometimes think that the only way to run this business is with no emotion and treat them like livestock. I'm just really mixed up at the moment.

Thanks for listening
Terri

[europa]

Find a home for the mare. She is well bred and disclose the details of her behavior. Someone will take her and be fine.

Rebreed your mare..........I have had heartaches which I won't go into since this post is not about me. Horses will always break your heart but they also can give you the greatest joy. They are all unique and lovely in their own way.

I read your post and was just totally overwhelmed for you.....your mare and the filly. My mare is due in June and I am trying to not stress this year but I keep hearing sad stories. I guess I need to stop reading them!! We are all here for you..........that is the beauty and the best of the CHRON.

Take care of your sweet mare!!!

[fish]

I am so sorry. This truly seems a hellish year, and I do know only too well how impossible life seems to bear when catastrophes come on the heels of one another. At times like these I think, over and over, of "Grief is the price we pay for love." That price can rip the heart right out of you, but it seems to me that the only alternative to continuing to love is to live the rest of one's life ruled by fear of grief. This reality seems so simple until we're faced with living it. Of course you're "mixed up" at the moment. You very much need time and space in which to breathe, find your heart again and heal.

[Walnut Farm]

I am very sorry for your loss!

Sometimes something so sad hits us, and who knows the reasons why??

Hugs to Stella as well!

Linda

[Waterwitch]

What a horrible horrible thing to witness and now the aftermath of emotions and "what ifs". You did nothing wrong. Horses will break your heart and you can't do anything to prevent it. I don't have any advice to offer to make things better but will be jingling for you and your husband and Stella.

Hugs from America

[Pippin]

I read your post and feell your pain..

"Grief is the price we pay for love."

Some very powerful words right there.. Most all of us around horses have felt this GRIEF of some sorts.. i know i have and have grown from it as well.. .. . . .

Please don't beat yourself up with the WHAT IFS... yes they will hound you for ever... I know i still get the gut hurt from time to time... or go back and dbl re check a locked gate...
Please try to let it go.... and continue with what you love... HORSES...

P~

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;3159612]I know he's right and quite frankly I want to put a bullet in her head.


that would be her fate here as well

[Edgewood]

I am so, so sorry. I had a ET recipient mare who was alpha and could have caused an accident like that last year. When I turned her and her foal out with another (less dominant) mare and foal, this mare got really excited and kicked - lucky for me the other mare positioned herself between the foal and kicking mare and took the brunt of the kick on her hindquarter. They too had been long time companions during their pregnancies and shared a fenceline post foaling...and got along fine before the babies. In the end, they actually did get along fine and a 3rd mare and foal were introduced with not much excitement. But alas, I can really understand as I was so worried when it happened.

I am so, so sorry. I was so glad to get rid of this ET recipient (who had other issues as well), so I can understand your desire to have the mare gone. The mare was close to really kicking the foal, but in this case the mother of the foal was able to intervene. Hugs to you and your husband.:sadsmile:

[Fairview Horse Center]

I am so sorry. Please know you did nothing wrong. We have to take some risks as the benefits of foals playing together, and horses able to be horses is worth the risk, although I am sure you are not feeling that way now.

[Signature]

I am so very sorry for your tragic loss. We have been through a young foal breaking its leg but in a freak accident and that was bad enough. To witness such a thing must be truly horrifying. Please do not beat yourself up about it - we all do the best we can and sometimes things are so unfair. Godspeed, little one, so sorry.

[DLee]

Oh gosh. I can't imagine watching that, I am so, so sorry. :(:(

[dbts]

I have dealt with a similar situation. Both mares had known each other for years. After both mares foaled they (and babies) were next to each other with a common fence. One day accidently, the filly of one mare slipped through the fence and got into the alpha mare's side. I was present when this happened and immediately felt panic. The filly ran right up to my alpha mare and her colt and the alpha mare planted a severe kick on the filly's front leg. I heard the the bone breaking crack. My story has a happy ending in that the filly came through the ordeal with minor damage. Don't blame yourself. You did nothing wrong. These kinds of incidents are part of dealing with horses. Mares with foals can act this way. It is hard to accept. My heart goes out to you. Time is very healing.

[Hillside H Ranch]

My heart is breaking for you. Rehome the mare or euthanize her if that is truly your wish after you have calmed down. It isn't fair for you to have her around if you dislike her that much, and it isn't fair for her, either. I'm so sorry you had to go through this.

[spacely]

I am so sorry.

[Platinum Equestrian]

I'm so sorry you had to experience that. How heartbreaking - I understand your anger and desire to find the mare another home. I hope time will heal your pain - hugs to you and the dam of the filly.

[CathyKb]

My heart breaks for you. I am so so sorry.:cry::cry::cry:

[Horsecrazy27]

So sorry. :(

One of my "live by" qoutes is, "Better to have loved than to have never loved at all." and my sig. line.. Always blessings, never losses. It doesn't seem like it now, but somehow there is a blessing in this whole mess of things. Whether it is someone who reads this and takes more caution and saving anothers life.

I'm so sorry. :(

[Equinoxfox]

OMG.. I just read this and it brought tears to my eyes. I am so sorry for your pain and loss. This is horrible. I am jingling for you here in NOVA. and yes I agree I would place the mare in a new home and just know that someone will get her and give her a great life.

[Hampton Bay]

OMG that is awful! I don't blame you for wanting to put a bullet thru that mare's skull.

Would the mare make a good riding horse? You could sell her as such and disclose the reason you are selling her. I don't think I could sell her as a broodmare after something like that.

If it were me, I would be tempted to market her ASAP, even if it meant trying to get Stella to take her colt. I couldn't handle seeing her in the pasture every day.

[Oakstable]

Oh, I'm so sorry, and you were so excited about your Iroko foal.

I lost my second Iroko to a tragic kick. It was delivered by her mom. We had gone into LA to a museum and got home late. The horses are fed before dark, and it was at least an hour late. I had two mares turned out with their babies. They were due for weaning any day, just needed to move horses around.

Anyway, I got a flashlight to start feeding and saw three horses and not the Iroko filly. I found her body just coming through the gate into the front paddock.

I'm sure she got too close to her mom who was hungry and very piggish about food. Mariah's foals learn to stay clear of mom when she is hungry.

The filly did not have a mark on her, and it had just happened. She was dead when I found her. I suspected a kick to her chest stopped her heart.

I can only imagine the pain you are going through.

Whitney would be five this year. Fortunately, I have her full sister, Abigail.

I have two foals coming next month. Both mares, full sisters, lost their last foals... one at a few days old in '06, the other to a dystocia 3 weeks before she was due to foal in '07.

I know I will want to bubblewrap these foals.

Terri, rebreed your mare to Iroko. Cyber hugs to you and your family.

[Home Again Farm]

My heart goes out to you and your poor Stella. :cry::cry::cry:

I am so very, very sorry. As breeders we face these unexpected tragedies that really can't be reliably prevented. Most of the time thongs go well, but when they don't the results can tear the heart out of you. I would sell the mare with a disclosure about what happened. It may well be that she will never do such a thing again. But I fully understand your wish for her to be gone.

[avezan]

I am so, so sorry. Hugs to you and Stella and Godspeed to little Daphne. I'm not one to assign human emotions to horses either, but I did lose a foal 3 years ago at about 15 hours old. The mare was a maiden and just tickled with this little thing at her side. After the foal died, we left the mare with the foal over night. The next morning, the mare was clearly heartbroken. She kept touching the foal with her nose and then looking at me with pleading eyes over and over. She could not have conveyed her thoughts any more clearly with words. It was heartwrenching for me to watch.

After you have had time to grieve, then think about what to do with the other mare. Making a decision now when you are so emotional would not be in your or the mare's best interest. I am waiting on a mare to foal now that is nasty to other horses. I have thought about what I will do as far as turning her out with other mares and foals. Thank you for sharing your story. I will consider it carefully when the time comes for me to turn out mares and foals together.

[Halfhalting]

I am terribly sorry about that; how devastating. Maybe you can find a foal to bring in with your mare? That might help you and her. And don't be sorry about feeling hatred in your heart towards the alpha mare for doing that to your baby. There are mean-spirited horses just like there are mean-spirited people. It's not good to be around either one (horses or people). Give her to somebody that's okay with that relationship. (((hugs))) to you, your husband, and your sweet mare.

[monstrpony]

Yikes. So sorry for your loss.

[Hi Jump]

So heartwrenching, we all feel and can understand your pain.

It does make one appreciate how lucky we are when it all goes well. Sorry for your loss,

Lisa, Synergy Sporthorses
Home to Cotopaxi and Raffaello
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[summerhorse]

I'm so sorry. =(

[3Dogs]

I am just so sorry :no::cry: - so so sorry.

[Sandra6500]

I'm so sorry to hear about the accident. I can't imagine how horrible that was.

Don't blame yourself at all for what happended. Shit happens.

That being said don't make a decision on what to do with the other mare now. Is she okay to handle for people? Is she reliable with her own foal? If so sell her with full disclosure. We have several mares out of 150+ at the TB farm that just cannot go out with others- its not that uncommon. It just requires management. I get that you don't want her at this point but I'm not convinced that she needs to be dead either.

Hope you and your other mare are able to move past this as quickly as possible. Again I'm sorry for your loss.

[Blacktree]

Wow, I'm so sorry. :(

Hope you can find a new home for the mare, I don't think I could keep her either...she may never do anything like that again, but if she did, you'd never forgive yourself for taking that chance. *HUGS*

[genevieveg17]

I am so sorry. Hugs for you, your husband and Stella.
Godspeed little filly.

[Donella]

Omg...gosh, I just can't imagine how awful that must be to have seen that.:sadsmile: *hugz* So sorry.

[Mozart]

That is heartwrenching, I am so sorry. You did nothing wrong at all, it is one of those things. How on earth could you have predicted something like that?

I too would want the mare gone but there is no reason you can't just sell her with full disclosure. She and any future foals she has will just have to be kept separate. Or someone might keep her in a large herd at all times, I imagine that might sort her out too.

At any rate, I am very sorry for your loss.

[Jessi P]

I am so sorry this has happened. Sometimes life just sucks.

{{{Terri}}}

[mbj]

I am so so sorry for your loss. You were doing the right thing, giving the foals a chance to have a playmate. I have raised 2 foals without baby buddies and they have some problems with being over-indulged. It's a terrifying crapshoot.My mother had the only filly sibling of her homebred Olympic medaling horse break her leg in a field irreparably because of a bigger colt messing with her after she was hurt. Horrible. And the end of a wonderful breeding line. I hope you have a lovely Iroko foal next year, knowing none replace this filly you lost.

[Sugarbrook]

There, but for the grace of God, goes any one of us as we turn mares and foals together.
It can turn nasty in a heartbeat and most always there is not a thing we can do to change the outcome.
I feel your pain and wish it hadn't happened. It was not your fault.

[pintopiaffe]

(((hugs)))
:cry:

[Sassenach]

I'm so sorry :(

*HUGS*

Give Stella a pat for me. RIP little one. :sadsmile:

[Rienzi]

There seems to be some confusion in a few posts, I believe it was not the alpha mare that did the deed but the other mare.

Don't feel bad about feeling bad. If you did not feel terrible about this I would say there was something wrong. Anger, grief, betrayal, guilt -- where to start?

We do the best we can, but we can't always protect the ones we love. Love is risk, and freedom is risk, but without either, what is life?

A thought on the other mare (not Stella). If she is a good riding/driving horse, and you have the $, you may want to consider spaying her.

But I wouldn't do anything right away. There is still a foal that has needs.

Give Stella and your husband a hug from me. So very sorry for your traumatic experience.

[EqTrainer]

My God, what a horrible thing to watch happen and have to handle afterwards.

Herd dynamics are, IMO, one of the toughest things to deal with when things go wrong. Try to remember you have no control over these things and your horses were just being horses. Whatever you choose to do with the mare is your decision. I know one of the things that has always stopped me from breeding is the potential for disaster seems even larger. The loss of a young life and the future they would have had is sometimes the toughest blow.

Hugs to you!

[sporthorsefilly]

Oh God, I am so sorry for the terrible emotional pain you are dealing with. I know how lossing one foal, my thoughts and prayers are with you. I understand the feeling of anger and hurt. Life is so fleeting and beautiful and seeing it shattered is totally unbearable. I think I would also place the mare who kicked. I could never feel the same about her again.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I'm so sorry. I don't blame you for feeling the way you do toward the other mare. I wouldn't want to look at her every day either.

Jingles to you and your family.

[Orkney96]

There is no one who can know the way you feel right now but those of us that have been there. I have to agree with an earlier post that said with out happiness you cant know true grief. Please know that you are in all of our prayers.
Lisa and Chistine

[Equilibrium]

I want to thank everyone for their kindness, thoughts, and sharing. I was in a vile mood when I came in this morning. It was the little things like still having yougurt on my shirt from giving some to Daphne before she got turned out.

I sorta want to relay that Stella is my Alpha and she was not responsible for any of what happened today. As far as the other mare goes, my husband made a good point in that he would not want to see any person or foal get hurt by her and does not want to sell her at this stage even if we disclosed everything. She will just have to live on her own with her foal. She is a racemare and I just don't see her as being a riding horse for anybody. She will get a chance to prove her worth and not a long chance. Then the decision will be made to sell her or put her down. But I too would never forgive myself if she hurt someone.

One of the strangest things happened today though. There's about 5 foals on the place and not all mine. Stella was up in the pen with her 4yo daughter and she kept calling the odd time. The next thing I know the other foals are calling for her. No other horses just the foals. On foal kept running as close as she could to my woodchip pen to talk to her. I don't know what their language is but it was strange. John, my husband, moved this mare and foal farther away because he just really couldn't handle it. It was tough to watch really.

It is true that I wouldn't be hurting so bad if I didn't care about what I do or what any of us do because we've all been through it. Time will heal and I have foals here that need me too. I love my racehorse babies but for some reason I just don't have the attachment that I do to my one warmblood a year. And this was Stella's first baby in 2 years. My husband who wouldn't be a warmblood guy was actually really taken with this one. He kept calling her "his" showjumping filly. And I would always say we can't keep them all and we probably will have to sell her. He would say, why, you got to keep Abba, I'm keeping this one.

I know I couldn't have stopped what happened today and I want foals to have company. They just love having other foals to play with. At this stage I will just look forward to next year and hope it goes better. The other mare will just have to raise her foal on her own.

Again Thank you all for your kindness and generosity.

Terri

[Daydream Believer]

I'm so sorry. How tragic and awful. I agree that you cannot blame yourself. Shit happens and horses are so danged unpredictable.

[nsm]

How absolutely horrible, I am so very sorry-

NM

[Hocus Focus]

It is a tough call regarding the fate of such a mare. It would appear she is not the kind anyone needs, but with that said, if you are to wipe aside all of the overwhelming emotion you are feeling and do decide she needs to move along, a single horse home might be a wise choice as she seems highly lacking in social skills.

[Equilibrium]

It is a tough call regarding the fate of such a mare. It would appear she is not the kind anyone needs, but with that said, if you are to wipe aside all of the overwhelming emotion you are feeling and do decide she needs to move along, a single horse home might be a wise choice as she seems highly lacking in social skills.

But this is what bugs me the most. Why is she lacking in social skills? We've had her here since she was 8 months of age. She has always been in company. Even when she was a racehorse she got turned out everyday with other horses because that's how are trainer does things. And I love that about racehorses over here, being treated like horses. There's never any nastiness in the herd of 4 without the foals. They all got to their pots and eat in an order. We stand by the slow one which was her, but the others never tried to take it off her because one of us was always there. They just know they have to give the slow one a break.

I don't know really but that element does bug me.

Terri

[Hocus Focus]

It is a tough call regarding the fate of such a mare. It would appear she is not the kind anyone needs in any broodmare herd, but with that said, if you are to wipe aside all of the overwhelming emotion you are feeling right now and do decide she needs to pack her bags, a single horse home might be a wiser choice with full disclosure of her heartless ways, as she seems highly lacking in social skills and noone needs to find out as you did what can occur, and good business would be the higher road and to inform a future buyer. The worst of all is it is a no win situation regardless. Spaying might also be an option to prevent any future occurance of this nature and spayed mares do have a use in larger breeding establishments as they can be used to assist in collection of stallions when required. You might want to enquire on this as an option.

I had a mare kick a foal. I too had the good neighbour policy in place and side by side turnouts and everyone was buddy buddy over the fence. I turned the mare in with other mares with foals. Yes I know, very stupid! But at the time, I guess I must have been reading Alice in Wonderland.

I did learn.The situation in my case was fine for a few weeks but one day sitting inside I heard the kick and I felt sick, and I cannot say if it was intended in malice. I never saw it occur but I heard it when it happened so I only assume I know the culprit, but I blame it more for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time for the curious friendly foal. This did not result in a broken leg, but resulted in the tip broke off of her elbow. A useless limp leg and a foal who could not follow its mother to nurse. Exrays showed a clean break and it was recommended we operate and doing the math and knowing my limits in budget, none of it was at a good time financially for me, so I had to make a hard choice, one most of you would raise your eyebrows at. Stall rest and prayer. The foal had a sweet mother and she endured the recovery time in an open airy stall, and it at least gave time to see how it might heal. The foals mother was a maiden and endured the events that followed without adding drama. I did have others who told me of similar events occuring and in their case, a series of operations occured (mucho $$$) and in the end the foal had to be put down anyway, so maybe I got lucky, who knows? Regardless it is heartwrenching at any time.

By some miracle through stall rest it did heal and the foal ended up with full use of her leg (40 days and then the choice to begin turnout. In the small yard around the barn I took the mare in hand and let the supposedly healed filly romp and play, watching her like a hawk and hoping for the best, well not one unsound step, and then with her tired and weary we returned them to the field with the quieter group, and no noticeable unsoundness or lumps or bumps anywhere, and no tenderness or heat. I was vigilant not expecting to get off easily, but by some miracle my story had a happier ending. I truly do not know if in future it would create problems or not, but at least she ended up with some quality of life and was a pretty enough filly to be useful. Your tale rings all too familiar the drama of events I experienced but mine had a happier result. I truly wish yours could have as well.

I feel for you. I would feel sick.

[Mozart]

From your post I assumed this mare was a first timer. She has been good to her colt? Normally good with people but then protective with her own colt? She was the bottom of the pack and then turned out for very first time with other mare and foal, with the other mare being the alpha?

I would be prepared to plead temporary insanity for her. She didn't know what to do, she felt threatened by the other mare, she wanted to be protective but knew better than to mess with apha directly but her chosen action was inappropriate and ridiculously over the top.

I wasn't there but my gut reaction is that this is a mixture of first time broodmare nerves coupled with the socially "bad choice" of the bottom of the pack horse who feels threatened into acting but then picks the wrong thing to do.

I don't think she is a write off but if I wanted to keep her because of her bloodlines I might think about either keeping her alone with her own foal or leaving her open with a herd of broodmares for a bit. Then she can learn about appropriate behaviour without feeling the need to protect her own.

I may well be wrong but I am trying to think outside the box a bit here.

[dressagetraks]

I am so, so sorry. Last year, when I had first reintegrated the herd, the foal bumped into the serious alpha mare's hindquarters, just frolicking and not paying that much attention, and she nailed him, double barrel. High kick on the neck (I thought on the head at first), and it sounded horrible. He collapsed on the spot, and I was right there a few seconds later. He just lay there, breathing but not moving, for nearly five minutes while I was touching him and begging him to get up, and then he shook himself, scrambled up, and went off to his dam to nurse. He was "off" for a week - vet thought he had a concussion, as well as severe bruising, and the ear on that side was flopping - but after that week, he came back just fine, and he regained control of his ear, although he sure learned his lesson about watching the adult horses' signals and respecting their hindquarters. The mare wasn't being malicious in that case, just disciplining, even if she used too much force. I'll never forget those five minutes when I thought she'd pretty much killed him, though. I can't imagine having to tackle one down to get it to stop. My prayers are with you. You were doing the right thing trying to give the filly playmates.

I would definitely agree on rebreeding the mare to the same stallion. As for the mare who broke the foal's leg, I wouldn't want her anymore, either. I would sell her with full disclosure, getting that disclosure in writing not just to protect yourself but to give the next owner a wriitten reminder of how serious the warning is.

[Sacha]

what a horrible tragedy for you. No wonder you are in pieces over it, I am in shock just reading this thread. I totally understand your sentiments on the mare that kicked the foal, especially as she has been treated and socialised properly since 8 months old. Horses really are heartbreakers at times

[Molly Malone]

I am so sorry for your loss

be kind to yourself.

[Fred]

dear Terri
I was in tears reading your post, and am heartbroken for you and your mare in the loss of your beautiful filly.
I understand your grief, and I understand your anger and frustration, but I don't think you can blame either yourself or the other mare. I agree with Mozart, and plead temporary insanity on the part of the mare. Yes, keep her alone with her foal. And when the time comes and the foals are weaned, they can all go out together.
If you still can't bear to look at her, then I agree, sell her to someone else, disclosing what happened.
I hope you are able to breed Stella back to Iroko. I know how you were looking forward to that foal, and how proud of her you were.

I have no words that can possibly console you, only that I, like so many of us here, understand the heartbreak only too well, and share your sadness and pain.

take care

Gail

[Rhyadawn]

Breeding is not for the faint of heart. Its hard work, very costly, and more often than not breaks your heart. More and more people are deciding that the outcome is not worth the loss. Its been rough, lots of people have lost mares and or foals this year. I pray that you sort this out and continue in what is best for you.

You couldn't have forseen this coming. Don't beat yourself up too much.

[Fenway]

What an upsetting thread. I am so, so sorry.:(
My heart goes out to you and your husband. You both seemed to adore this filly and life is just horribly heartbreaking sometimes.

[Tiki]

Oh Terri, I'm soooo sorry. My heart goes out to you and your hubby. I know you have some pretty bad feelings toward the other mare right now, but I think that this was just a dreadful accident. I've had 'bottom of the pack mares moved into a herd of youngsters and suddenly become aggressive. I think it has to do with the fact that they were at the bottom of the pack in the broodmare herd, and when suddenly put in with lower heirarchy horses - e.g. yearlings or 2yo's, THEY are suddenly the alpha mares - and they take out all the past transgressions on them on the youngsters for a couple of days. Fortunately, my yearlings and 2yo's were wise enough to mostly get out of the way, and your little one wasn't.

I wouldn't be against keeping this mare and trying again, but I would not put her alone with the alpha mare, but rather someone close to the bottom of the pack where she normally is. There wouldn't be the inducement to 'take it out' on a 'lesser' mare's foal. I would also try to put her with a 'lesser' mare with a slightly older foal - who may be wise enough to keep out of the way. I would NOT put her back one on one with the alpha mare when both have foals.

I'm so sorry this happened and I hope you can sort it out to satisfaction.

Best wishes, Sheila

[kookicat]

I'm so sorry for your loss. What an awful thing to happen. {hugs}

[Oakstable]

Terri,
Is Iroko still in Ireland?

[Norcrest]

I am so sorry

[thumbsontop]

I'm so sorry. We all have those hindsight moments and you can't blame yourself. I have one myself that I still berate myself for. I really couldn't have known. Thank you for sharing so that others may learn.

Plan to rebreed. Stella would likely love another chance to be a mom.

[Donella]

I realize this situation is different but last year a really nice family bought a Lovely El Bundy weanling filly from a good friend of mine. They took her home and put her in a pen next to a mare who had her own filly of the same age. I guess they got along great over the fence and so they put them together. The mare apparently went berzerk on the El Bundy filly and got her in a corner and broke her legs ect and she had to be put down. I remember my mom saying she has heard of this alot..mares attacking foals ect. Its weird but it does seem to happen and it seems like it is very hard to predict. The really weird thing about your situation is that the mares knew each other.

[Windswept Stable]

I am so sorry to hear about your loss. My thoughts are with you in this difficult time.

[maggiecat]

It might not be your young mare's fault... (nobody's fault).

I realize your situation was somewhat different (you had done everything you could to introduce them right) , but this may help someone else anyway...

Years ago I had the exact same thing happen but I was lucky and my foal survived. But the foal body flying through the air--oh my god.My foal had a month in the stall and full xrays.

Now I had turned out this mare and foal because a vet (who I now know is a bit nuts) came by to check the foal and chewed me out that they were in a stall. I asked if he was sure a young foal (2 days old) and mom could be turned out. He insisted and since I was a novice breeder back then, I went along although my instincts said no.

He left and I turned the mare and foal out, with my son helping. The little filly bolted from her mom, ran across a huge field, right into the mare herd. I was running as fast as I could but too late.

Here is what I learned from the 2nd vet, who came when I frantically called. He grew up ranching in Montana--he says little foals are semi-blind. They seem like they have ok vision but they don't. A big dark shape may look like Mom to them, but it is another mare. And if they run up, they don't make the chewie face or stop to send "I'm a baby" messages, because they are thinking it is Mom and Mom knows them, right?

So to your young mare-- to her, it is not your darling little foal. To her it is another horse, racing up, possibly attacking, and not giving normal signals. An adult horse would never race up to the side of a horse they don't know; they go through the whole introduction signals, establish rank, etc.

So--while it is horrible that you had to go through that--there must be a place in heaven for horse breeders' heartaches--maybe your young mare is not at fault. Maybe she reacted normally, because it happened fast and the foal got too close without the signals (especially chewie face) that say it's a baby.

Now I keep mares with new foals out of the herd til they are a month old, and even then I need valium the day I turn them out together!

[dbaygirl]

My heart goes out to you...it was shocking to even read your post about the "other mare". What more could you have done? You separated them for a while to adjust to one another's babies. The "what if's" can drive you crazy. I lost a mare once to another mare, a broken leg. I had sensed/suspected something was not right with the other mare. We had almost finished building the new barn so my mare could come home and then it happened. If the mare who kicked mine belonged to me, she would have gotten a bullet. I was furious and I hated myself for keeping my mare there even one more day knowing how she was treated by the other mare. I have never since run into a horse who seemed "evil", picking at another horse for no reason when pecking order was already established. She was not only trying to be leader, she was mean. I certainly understand how you feel about the mare that did this thing to your filly.

You do learn to go with your gut instincts but you cannot blame yourself. We all want our babies to grow up with other foals, to learn herd dynamics and social skills.

Animals do have emotions, whether some arrogant humans think they do or not. I've seen, I believe it. Why shouldn't they have them? How else is a mare capable of protecting her baby...because she CARES. If animals did not care about their young or their people they would not try to protect them. My mare lost a colt a few years (as I've posted before) and I've never seen an animal so affected emotionally as she was after he was gone. Don't think you have to treat horses like livestock, they are so much more than that and this is why breeding can be so davastating at times.

I'm so sorry for your filly and for your broken heart. Hugs to you and your husband and to sweet Stella. I would dispose of the other mare, bloodlines or not, perhaps as a riding horse or whatever. You don't want that temperament being passed on.

Jan

[ahf]

Your description of what happened was so vivid. I can can feel your emotions as if they were my own. I particularly empathize with the sinking feeling you had...knowing things were not quite normal...and pretty much being powerless to stop what you sensed would happen, and so tragically did happen. That wait for the vet to euthanize the foal must rank with the worst horse experience you've ever had.

I can also empathize with your sentiment that, while you love your foals, this is the one you look forward to.

Hugs to you, and your husband. I'm glad Stella has her own daughter to comfort her. She will move on, but this will take you a while to stop re-living. And it's going to happen at the oddest times...like when you are in the grocery store deciding on redskinned vs. white potatoes. Please, be kind to yourself during this time. You are being a tough bird but don't downplay what you've gone through. SOmetimes we get so caught up in...this is what happens with horses (and yes, it does) ...that we do not take the magnitude of the experience into account.

You are in my thoughts.

Kate

[hluing]

I am sending heartfelt condolences from Florida. You can't blame yourself for this tragedy. There is nothing you could have done...and you were trying to do the right thing. It seems heartbreak is around every corner with horses...as is joy. In the dark times like this, it is very, very hard.

Yes, horses feel emotion. I believe that, having seen them grieve...which is really heartbreaking to watch. However, they are not people...and don't have the level of rational thought and values we do. So while I understand your anger at the mare (I am sure I would feel the same way)...I agree with the other poster that she may have been behaving in a normal way for a horse. As in, she is probably not evil.

Hang in there...things will get better...even if they don't seem that way!

[Irish Momma]

Im so sorry Equilibrium- many hugs to you and your husband.
Maybe the mare could be found a home,where she would be the only brood mare ?

Back in the dark ages when I was a kid - we had a mare that used to attack anything else grazing near her- we ended up having to muzzle and soft hobble her until she got over it - usually within a couple of weeks, it seemed to be hormone related- didnt have the luxury of individual paddocks back then. They were all out on the moor.......
The rank behaviour didnt pass on to her foals, as far as we knew.
Jingles to you all.

[carosello]

Terri I just wanted to say how sorry I am about the whole situation. Breeding is so tuff, you can have all the right things on paper but things can still go wrong.

I witnessed a freak accident and yearling snapped her leg in half also. It was horrible and I know how it is when you shut your eyes and you see it over and over. Unfortunately I have yet to loose that sick to your stomach feeling over mine (and it was 6 years ago). Just remember you didnt do anything wrong and it should have worked. What happened was out of your control. <HUGS>

[WWEB]

OMG - I am SO sorry :cry:

We're in a similare situation every year joining the mares and foals and THAT is always the fear. We still have an alpha mare with her first foal at her side. She seems like she wants to be with the other mares, now I'm tenative of even trying it. It's just so nice for the babies to have friends to play with.

We had a mare that was viscious a few years back. She was a herd mare until she had a foal on her side, at which time I was the only one allowed in there and no horse could be near her (not even on a neighboring fence line). We knew we could not accomodate her in that manner so sold her. We priced her according to her vice rather than her quality , heavily screened the potential buyers to make sure she would not be flipped for profit and have some unexpecting soul hurt. We found a suitable home and let the buyer know everything and even made the mare sound worse than she was. She was sold with a full page disclosure listing everythink I could think of her doing.

The new owner loves the mare, has room for her and can accomodate her without a problem. Theres a home out there for all of them we just have to be honest so other people or horses don't get hurt.

Sending hugs to you, your husband and your poor heartbroken mare! - you know the mare and you will ultimatly know what is best for everyone.

[tullyleague]

Terri, your post brought tears to my eyes. I am so, so sorry for your loss.

[coriander]

I'm so sorry for your loss. It's not your fault; none of us can see the future. Please don't blame yourself for one of those awful things that just happen.

[Cindy's Warmbloods]

I am so very sorry to hear of your loss and cannot even imagine. I also had a mare that did not get along with other foals. Granted she did not outright kick them but one of the foals wound up with a hematoma on her back where she bit it and many missing hair patches. It didn't happen until about the 3rd day they were together and I knew she was nipping at the other foal occasionally but they were on a large acreage so figured they would be fine and work it out (ie foal would stay out of her way). But apparently not so she was removed from the pasture. I felt bad as I so wanted her foal to have a playmate. She has since been sold and is kept away from other foals though she is fine with other adult horses even when they are around her foal.

[jedders]

So sorry for your terrible loss.

[La Gringa]

Wow, I read your post while I was at work, and it left a big impression on me. How heartbreaking and infuriating at the same time..

I am so sorry for your loss of your beautiful girl. I hope the rest of your season goes better.

Hugs..

Kindra

[Ladybug Hill]

Very very sad. I understand being angry at the mare, but horses will be horses. "Low-man" horses can act overly aggressive when given the chance. I have seen it quite often, although never with this much tragedy involved. There is no good way for you to have predicted that this would happen. Any horse can be injured by another or even when in individual turnout. We just continue to do the best we can and learn from all of our experiences, but you can't wrap them all in bubble wrap. I hope you find a good home for the mare and that you able to rebred your mare. So sorry that you had to go through this.

[buschkn]

Terri, Jingles and Hugs to you. SO sorry for your loss, but you didn't do anything wrong. Try not to blame yourself or the mare. Easier said than done. :(

[karin@dutchbreeders@aol.com]

Hello Terri and John,
I am so so sorry for your loss and your pain....Please do NOT blame yourself...It could have been any of us!! I don't know what I can do or say except that you are due for some good luck....Go ahead and grieve for Daphne, and then rebreed Stella and go on....What else can we do??

Take care of yourselves....and be gentle to yourselves.....Our hearts and thoughts are with you and Stella....

Warmly,
Karin Jimenez

[Equilibrium]

Terri,
Is Iroko still in Ireland?

Yes Iroko is still in Ireland. I had actually decided on another young stallion for Stella from the Heartbreaker line as she crosses well with his sons. She has a 3yo Padinus gelding that is a really nice horse. But I might change that now. The owner of the stud farm where he stands was on to me yesterday and said just pick whoever you want. So more decison making again. I probably went through 30 stallions already!

Here's a bit of irony for you that I had forgotten about until today. One day after I covered Annia, the horrible mare, I got an out of the blue email from a bloodstock agent wanting to buy her for a client in Australia. But he said she had to be open for the breeding seaon there. I called him and explained we just had her covered and I wouldn't sell her anyway. On Friday, 2 days before all this, she was confirmed in foal. She's in foal to a 2time Breeders'Cup winner and a horse that made over 5mil. I was only able to afford this stallion because the original stallion got hurt and I got a super deal because of it.

I also want to take this time to thank a very dear friend. A few of you on this board know her as she's been to America judging various Irish Draught classes. Carol dropped everything yesterday morning when I was crying on the phone. She came over and helped with all of the unpleasantries including bringing Stella away from the field with her baby. It don't know which of us was crying more. Then she started trying to muck out and sweep up. I told her to leave it and we'd go in for a coffee. All that stuff could wait. Of course I left dishes in the sink from the night before because I was lazy and I come in to find her washing up. I said sit down your here for support not to be my maid! She stayed for ages and she got me to laugh at some other things. Mainly my lame cat who amazing goes unlame when you feed him a bit of ham from the fridge. I told her we already spent 500 euro on the cat in vet bills to find nothing wrong. I said get him a piece of ham and you'll see. Well whatta know, leg is fine. So Carol deserves a very big Thank You for being such a great friend.

And to top off a long day this was unreal. Coming in from the fields where we were cleaning some water troughs and we see smoke coming from the houses. My sister in law lives next to us. I said to my husband, oh great the house is on fire jokingly. I thought my SIL had started a fire for the evening in her living room. He says, no but Vanessa's is. He sprints off and we find her trying to unplug the dryer that has now gone on fire. So we spent a few mins putting out the fire and making sure the house wasn't going to go up in flames which at that stage I wouldn't have cared. So we're standing there after the fire is out thinking, what a flippin day. Her room is covered in black, water everywhere, and Vanessa says, "you never know, it could be salvageable"! I just burst out laughing. It was just some day.

Thank all for helping me as this thread really has helped me.

Terri

[TrueColours]

Equilibrium, I am so so sorry ... :(

This business is filled with such incredible highs and such terrible, gut wrenching lows at times ...

{{{HUGS}}}

[titan]

So very sorry to hear of your loss. Hugs to you and yours from MI!

[ise@ssl]

What a tragedy for you to witness. I know this sounds harsh but I think I would have taken the foal from the kicking mare - tried to get it on the mare that lost her foal and put the kicking mare down. There are plenty of great mares in the world and dangerous mares (or any dangerous horse) just shouldn't be kept alive.