WWYD Vet CLEARLY missed my mare's pregnancy

[classicsporthorses]

Now, I am no novice when it comes to foaling or my mares. The mare in question is my best and oldest mare. I know her inside and out. She was bred back last July 07 by my younger stallion. We had great Live cover. Well LONG story short, 2 palp (at 17-20 days and at approximately 8 months after her live cover and 2 ultrasounds (at 17-20 days and 8 month and a blood draw for Progesterone levels inbetween those two times-that said Hmm, well we are not sure). I am told yet again that she is not in foal. When we tried a second breeding, b/c vet said "yes, she is going to probably ovulate (this was last summer via ultraound too), she would not stand to be bred. This is a mare who "normally" stands after ovulation for a stallion she is so good and patient. She wanted no part of him. She stood perfect for him for that first breeding cover.

As I said, I know my mares, I have been watching her through the winter and This mare is CLEARLY in foal or else she had an alien in her abdomen. Tonight I felt a kick, from inside of her with my hand on her belly and last week I could feel the foal moving. Heck you could see her belly moving....AND she is yet again getting as big as a house. She gets, and I am not kidding, up to 110 inches around when close to foaling. Absolutely NO signs of heat.

So, would you say something? Ask for a refund on all of the ultrasounds, palps, Blood draw?? Now I am watching one of my other mares now, who was also bred last year, by my other stallion, who is not showing any signs of heat. She two has been checked twice and I was told she was not in foal. This mare is a hussy so I know when she is in heat. We are watching this mare now too very closely as her abdomen is looking more "preggo belly" then non-preggo belly.

The Vet, is a younger very nice woman and newer to the practice. She did also miss the pregnancies on two other of my mares on their first exams last summer. Wisely I waited and wanted a recheck before I shot cycled or tried to rebreed. Second check a week or so later and gosh they ARE in foal.

So? your input Please.

[Oakstable]

I've had two different vets miss pregnancies, checking only by palpation. Both have a lot of experience.

But with a young vet who is still on the learning curve, I'd ask for a refund or for credit, especially since she used ultrasound. Ask her what she thinks would be a fair resolution and see what she says.

[amdfarm]

My vet has also missed pregnancies and w/ ultrasound. I threatened to name the foals after him when he found they were in fact in foal, but never have. He's only missed a couple and I think that's pretty good, though also pretty common, as those little buggers move around. If he has to re-check the same mare more than once, the next ultrasounds are discounted and he does this for all the mares.

Vets make mistakes, too, even experienced ones. I chalk it up to part of the breeding "game" and $hit happens. :)

[MagicRoseFarm]

I would discuss this with the senior owner of the practice, not the younger vet, they need to know , so she can be better educated for her job.

Vets leave school having done a bit of everything, and later their skills become more specific.

[classicsporthorses]

THANKS folks,I am well aware that mistakes can happen. My younger stallion's dam fooled everyone for a few months AND had 2 injections of Lute and on the third ultrasound they said "oh my Lord there is the fetus" The first mare that I mention in my post is bred to this stallion, how profound is that.

The thing that is bugging me is that at 8 months she still missed the pregnancy. If my other mare gives birth in July, the one we are also watching that we were told she was not in foal, I may ask for the other much more experienced vet to do our checks.

[Windswept Stable]

i also would discuss with a senior partner in the practice and I would insist on someone with more experience coming to your farm from now on.

I can not think of any reason for it to be missed at 8mos. The early ultra sounds yes..but 8mos?

[Oakstable]

Experienced vets eventually retire. I am dreading the day my vet retires.

Younger vets need to be brought along but not at the expense of clients.

[M.K.Smith]

I had a vet miss a pregnancy by palpation... when we checked the mare I told her the range that she'd been out with the stallion... asked if we needed to re-check- no... was told 100% sure she wasn't pregnant.

Didn't discover that she was pregnant till about a month before she foaled. Was concerned because she hadn't had her rhino shots, possibly had been exposed to fescue, etc. On top of it, she'd been in work & happily toting me around... not a concern, but geez what a saint of a mare!

Ended up with a lovely foal. I'm not upset with the vet at all and didn't ask for a refund for the palp that was wrong or the palp at 10 months. But, I will admit, it does make me question her repro abilities. But then again, everybody does make mistakes. I'm not planning on doing any breeding in the near future, so I'm not concerned.

[camohn]

i also would discuss with a senior partner in the practice and I would insist on someone with more experience coming to your farm from now on.

I can not think of any reason for it to be missed at 8mos. The early ultra sounds yes..but 8mos?

Ditto!

[Hillside H Ranch]

Speaking as someone who owns a practice, I would speak to the owner/senior vet. However, before I did that I would want absolute confirmation that the mare is pregnant. Either have the senior vet out to palpate or another practice. I know that you are 110% sure, but you are going to have a much stronger argument if either another vet from the practice actually feels that baby, or if you can say "Dr. So-and-So" palpated her and she is pregnant. I would want to know if a veterinarian who was working for my practice wasn't able to accurately palpate a mare that was 8 months pregnant. I would probably credit your account for at least 1 palpation and then do some "continuing education" with my associate!

[Slewdledo]

It happens - but it shouldn't happen several times on the same mare. You can miss a baby once, but you should NEVER miss it on a re-check. (And especially a palpation several months along :confused: )

One of the reasons we pulled our vet out of retirement is that, last year, the new vet missed two pregnancies, we teased the mares every day for MANY more weeks with no heat shown, and had the vet recheck them - and they were pregnant, and he charged us (full price) for each of the second ultrasounds. It was HIS mistake, and one of the mares was a client's mare.

Edited to add: What are you going to do if your mare has twins?

[WWEB]

I FEEL your frustration but our vet went one mistake further.

First year he missed twins that were aborted at 9 months - Twin Black colts with chrome to the knees and hocks - DEVESTATING especially after paying A LOT for the mare we were really excited for her first foal.
All we got was some explenation of how the twins can be in on top of each other and easily missed (basicly hiding behind the textbook).

THEN -- last year we had a mare checked in foal 15 day, heartbeat, then a 90 day. Around 8 months she was showing heat to a gelding in the field and really did not look in foal (but she is a big mare) so we decided to have her ultrasounded. Vet said she is NOT in foal they were positive. We believed them as she was clearly showing heat. We decided that since she aborted we should pull a culture and biopsy to get things in order for a rebreed - we did that and 3 days later there lay the most stunning BUCKSKIN filly obviously premature dead in the field :mad:

I had a long talk with the senior partner who agreed to do all the repro work on that mare for free. Sounds great but we got billed for every little thing we did for that mare as well as all the others. We REALLY lack repro vets in our area so I've been tip toeing around the subject. Hubby says he NEEDS to live up to the agreement he made but I just havent had the nerve to say anything.

I agree with the advise from those above. Talk with the vet, try to reach a reasonable solution and make them stick to it.

OH - we also had a mare who checked in foal then went out on lease to show. They said she did not look in foal so had her palpated (would have been 6 months at the time). This was a different vet, he said she was not in foal and actually joked that the foal should be kicking his hand being this far along. So they showed the mare all winter @ 4'. Preparing for a final winter series they noticed the mare moving funny behind, they hauled her over for a Chiro visit. I pulled her blankets and said " &%!@" she's in foal :eek:
Had the chiro look at her anyway who said to the people leasing the mare. "put a basketball between you thighs and go run around" that's what's wrong with the mare.

She foaled 3 weeks premature and the foal was just fine - actually he was site champion and came back last year for a repeat champion in the Yearling futurity. BUT that vet who was so rude about checking had to refund the peoples money for the call and ultrasound (also drugs - which the mare had never needed)

Good luck with your situation its a touchy subject but we as breeders can not absorb all the costs for the vets learning process. I have become SO paranoid about preg checks anymore.

[classicsporthorses]

Thanks Folks, I appreciate the input. My first mare is "due" in early June so I am just going to wait until she foals to have the confirmation. I pray we do not have twins but if any mare can handle twins it's this mare.

I have treated all my mares, those confirmed and those "not" as if they were in foal this year. This younger vet has been out of school for a few years now and they have a large number of breeding farms they do so I agree it's back to school if she's missed a number of pregnancies.

I am just keeping my fingers crossed that all works out well.

[tri]

I had an experienced vet miss a pregnancy using ultrasound. We didn't wait and short cycled her & had to spend the money to convert my breeding contract with the stallion owner to frozen. When he did the check after all the expense of using frozen, he found the embryo from the first breeding. Of course she absorbed it because of the short cycling. The vet charged me full price and we ended up settling for 50% of the bill. I was still out the cost of switching to frozen and, since the stallion wasn't available fresh for several years after that, I ended up losing the whole contract. The mare was not a good candidate for frozen and back then, a lot of vets weren't as good with frozen either. Lose/lose.

[thumbsontop]

I agree with talking with a senior vet in the practice with your concerns about the pregnancy possibly being missed (without blame) and request another palpation free of charge when he's nearby.

I would not feel comfortable just waiting until the prospective foal arrives for confirmation.

[Marieke]

We had a similar story once. 22 yo mare, easy breeder, was inseminated, couldn't find pregnancy, couldn't get it quite right after that. Winter came, she got HUGE, we were SURE she was pregnant, THOUGHT we felt it. Due date came and went, we were on foal watch. Nothing ever came.

[Penthilisea]

Agree, get a second opinion to CONFIRM that she is in foal before you go to head of the practice. Especially mares who are bred repeatedly you can get false pregnancies. Cover your bases then have a calm discussion.

[carosello]

Im really shocked to hear there are vets who miss a pregnancy at 8 and 9 months...not just via palpation but ultrasound too! Shouldn't that foal be pretty obvious?

[Ghazzu]

While I would agree with those who suggest speaking to the senior partner in the practice, the advice to make sure she is truly pregnant *first* is good.

It is also the case that an 8 month pregnancy is easier to miss than one might think. At that point the uterus more or less falls down over the pelvic brim into the abdomen.

[classicsporthorses]

trust me she is pregnant. I will speak to the senior member of the practice and owner when she foals, which is soon. We are watching our other mare as well. I will keep you posted.

[mistyjewell]

The only thing I don't get, is you said they also did a blood draw... wouldn't that be sent out to a lab or done by someone else? I'd imagine that you can miss an ultrasound or palp for various reasons, even the best vets are wrong sometimes, but I'd think a simple hormone level test would show what was going on, and I wouldnt' blame the vet, new or not, for the results from that test. so I would wait until you have a foal on the ground before saying anything.

And personally, i wouldn't ask for a refund, I'd talk to the senior vet, but there's no proof that it was the vets fault, there could be a number of reasons things like this could happen. You also don't want to risk upsetting your vet, you never know when you're going to need to rely on them, but I would talk about it with them, if she was in fact, wrong.

[classicsporthorses]

We had blood drawn for progesterone level after the first check, when I was told she was not in foal but it looked like she had a follicle coming (from ultrasound) and I was told by this vet I would have been able to probably breed her 'that coming weekend' (this was the beginning of July- 07 as I recall). She would not stand for my stallion, this is a mare who is the best mare to breed. At this point I am thinking what the heck is going on with this mare? did she just blow through an ovulation in 24 hours?

So we get the blood draw a few weeks later, it comes back and I am told, now don't quote me on the measuring but it's something to the fact that if it measures 5 the mare is pregnant and if below another number (Can't recall the number) that she is not. But the measurement has to be a 5 for her to definately be pregnant. My mare's measured a 4.8. So the vet says. Well it looks like she is not in foal. By this time it's getting late in the breeding season and I say, "we just going to make it that she is in foal and recheck her in later on".

I also had a boarder out today who has not been out in about a month. She immediately noticed that this mare is pregnant and the other mare is question she conveyed "her belly is looking a lot larger then when I last saw her".

Don't get me wrong I am thrilled to have the babies, that clearly is not the point. We'll see what the outcome is as the mares progress.

[SLW]

The clinic I work for will run the progesterone test 60 days after the last breeding, though the test is more reliable later in the pregnancy. A co-worker ran the test on her mini right at 60 days post breeding and it came back on the margin- maybe, maybe not pregnant. The mini did end up being pregnant.

In the future I'd probably always have the senior vet in that practice do all my repro work.

Good luck w/ your mares and I hope you have easy foalings with healthy babies.

[ise@ssl]

I'm not sure why this Vet doesn't know that mares - even when pregnant - continue to produce follicles. If she can't palpate the cervix and feel that it's completely closed - then I'm wondering whether she should even be doing repro work at all. It's becoming increasingly obvious that the newer crops of Vets are relying heavily on ultra-sounds and not on developing the "feel" for palpating mares.

In this case - the fact that she can't palpate and FEEL a foal at 8 months begs the question of whether she knows what she's doing. I would definitely sit down with the her and go over the bills and the what SHE found during the examinations. I would ask for some refunds.

Vets can miss pregnancies - that happens.

Also it isn't always reliable to just use teasing as an indication of whether the mare is bred or not. We've had mares that tease like hussies through their pregnancies.

[bwf]

Any update on this mare???????
Is she Prego or not?