Newbie Question-Getting Mare in Foal - Update Post 11

[justathought]

We are breeding a maiden mare -

How many cycles does it usually take to get a mare pregnant? We will be trying the third time (if all goes according to plan) in a couple of weeks. At what point should there be concern if nothing takes?

(P.S. We are using a equine reproductive vet and a professional breeder - just trying to get myself educated and more knowledgeable)

[clint]

I think the average is 1.5 cycles. If I had bred a maiden mare three cycles with no pregnancy, I would be worried and looking under all the stones for answers. In fact, I do that after two. I'm assuming you have done a culture/cytology, had the semen checked for swimmers? Confirmed ovulation?

[justathought]

Cultures were done and fine.

No ovulation the first cycle. (Done in late February)

Second cycle - ovulation happened late (did receive a drup to help ovulation, can't recall name of drug ... something about the follicle, I think hemoragic(sp?). - given a 50/50 on chances, mare wen on regumate - no pregnancy confirmed a couple of days ago. Taken off regumate

Going for third cycle...

Any thoughts

[avezan]

There are so many variables. Last year I bred 5. 4 took on the first try including a maiden bred live cover. One mare took 3 tries, but there was something odd about the first 2. She had always taken on the first try before. Are you working with a really good repro vet? Is your mare at their clinic when she is bred? Or is the vet coming to your farm? Where in the country are you located? Are you using AI? Cooled? Frozen? Live cover? If the mare doesn't take on the third try and you are working with a very competent vet, then I would guess something could be wrong. Or it could be too early in the season, or... its hard to say! Hopefully she will take on this cycle.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Well, is sounds like you've identified the problems so far. No ovulation on the first cycle (did you breed on that cycle?). Then a hemorrhagic follicle, which isn't really an ovulation, either. Has this mare had a normal cylce/documented ovulation this year? Was she under lights? It sounds like she may still be transitional. Another thing you should be aware of is that if you have a hemorrhagic follicle on one cycle you have a greater chance of having them on subsequent cycles in the same season. No one really knows why, but I've seen mares have them for essentially the majority of a season sometimes.

[Equibrit]

Article on hemorrhagic follicles here; http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/AHF.shtml

[justathought]

There are so many variables. Last year I bred 5. 4 took on the first try including a maiden bred live cover. One mare took 3 tries, but there was something odd about the first 2. She had always taken on the first try before. Are you working with a really good repro vet? Is your mare at their clinic when she is bred? Or is the vet coming to your farm? Where in the country are you located? Are you using AI? Cooled? Frozen? Live cover? If the mare doesn't take on the third try and you are working with a very competent vet, then I would guess something could be wrong. Or it could be too early in the season, or... its hard to say! Hopefully she will take on this cycle.

She is a maiden -so not history ....
The repro vet is very good - she is not at his farm but is at the farm of a vet he works with on a regular basis
We are doing AI with cooled..

Any other thoughts

[justathought]

Well, is sounds like you've identified the problems so far. No ovulation on the first cycle (did you breed on that cycle?). Then a hemorrhagic follicle, which isn't really an ovulation, either. Has this mare had a normal cylce/documented ovulation this year? Was she under lights? It sounds like she may still be transitional. Another thing you should be aware of is that if you have a hemorrhagic follicle on one cycle you have a greater chance of having them on subsequent cycles in the same season. No one really knows why, but I've seen mares have them for essentially the majority of a season sometimes.

Read the article psoted by Equibrit - Thank you

We did breed on the frist cycle. I am hoping that she is tranisitional - it sounds like that would be the better option. If not, what are the odds that she will continue to have this problem - I am hoping that there is a chance that we we be sucessful this next cycle... should I be less hopeful?

[Equibrit]

I would think it was worth your vet taking a closer look before you take another chance.

"These may respond to treatment and resolve if a luteolitic dose of prostaglandin F2α is given. The remaining 15% however, which retain an anechoic appearance on ultrasound, will remain in situ despite all attempts to dislodge them - in some instances for as long as 100 days."

[Equibrit]

Print the article and show him what you found. He may have checked already - you never know.
You should inform yourself as much as possible as it is you who are responsible for making the decisions in the end.

[justathought]

Ok - so the mare had her first "normal" cycle. Still no pregnancy. Everything checks out ok per repro vet. So, do we go again, thinking that we have a really good shot (assuming we get a second normal cycle - which the vet expects)? When and how do all you experienced folks decide if, "its just not gonna happen."

Thanks

[Equine Reproduction]

Ok - so the mare had her first "normal" cycle. Still no pregnancy. Everything checks out ok per repro vet. So, do we go again, thinking that we have a really good shot (assuming we get a second normal cycle - which the vet expects)? When and how do all you experienced folks decide if, "its just not gonna happen."

Thanks

Well, you're still not providing much information to go on other than to say that you're dealing with an experienced repro vet and breeder. So, is the mare ovulating in a timely manner? Is she being followed for ovulation? Is she being followed for post breeding inflammatory response? How old is the mare? You say she's maiden, but how old is she actually? Has she had a uterine biopsy done? Depending on your answer to the above questions would determine how I personally would proceed. But, I would also probably be inclined to have a uterine biopsy done, especially if the mare is older.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.euqine-reproduction.com

[justathought]

Here is my attempt to answer your questions.... I am new at this so try to help me along if I seem to get off track.

The mare is being followed for ovulation - and as of the most recent cycle ovulation was timely. The first cycle she did not ovulate at all... despite having had the folicle followed via palpation and ultasound. The second cycle she had a hemmoragic folicle but did ovulate. The most recent cycle was normal in all respects with timely ovulation. She is being followed for post bredding inflamatory response - none to date. The mare is 15. I believe that a uterine biopsy was done (and normal) before we decided to breed, but I will double check on that - what is being looked at there and why do I want to know?

So, given this information, any thoughts...

Well, you're still not providing much information to go on other than to say that you're dealing with an experienced repro vet and breeder. So, is the mare ovulating in a timely manner? Is she being followed for ovulation? Is she being followed for post breeding inflammatory response? How old is the mare? You say she's maiden, but how old is she actually? Has she had a uterine biopsy done? Depending on your answer to the above questions would determine how I personally would proceed. But, I would also probably be inclined to have a uterine biopsy done, especially if the mare is older.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.euqine-reproduction.com

[FLIPPED HER HALO]

I was worried my mare wouldn't get pregnant last year - this was my first time ever breeding. It took one cycle for my maiden mare last year. I'd been watching her for coming into heat and we checked and she was transitional in March. She ovulated and was bred right on schedule in April and conceived twins. One was larger than the other and her body absorbed both by the time we checker her again at 21 days. She had a decent size folicle growing so we short cycled her and bred her the following week. She conceived again with twins but once was pinched off immediately. Our colt is a month old today. :D

[Equine Reproduction]

The mare is being followed for ovulation - and as of the most recent cycle ovulation was timely. The first cycle she did not ovulate at all... despite having had the folicle followed via palpation and ultasound. The second cycle she had a hemmoragic folicle but did ovulate. The most recent cycle was normal in all respects with timely ovulation. She is being followed for post bredding inflamatory response - none to date. The mare is 15. I believe that a uterine biopsy was done (and normal) before we decided to breed, but I will double check on that - what is being looked at there and why do I want to know?

So, given this information, any thoughts...

Your mare is older, and older maiden mares "can" be more difficult to get pregnant. As your mare "did" ovulate on the follicle that was considered "hemorrhagic" it probably wasn't. On anovulatory hemorrhagic follicles, by their very definition, they don't ovulate on those. And, they tend not to resolve very quickly. I suspect the first cycle she was transitional and the second cycle was her first ovulation. With older mares even if they exhibit no traditional inflammatory responses, I tend to use repeated small doses of oxytocin. Older maiden mares tend to have cervices that don't relax and consequently can have difficulty expelling fluid.

I would definitely check on whether or not a biopsy was done. A culture and cytology are traditionally done (or should be) at the beginning of the breeding season. Biopsies are more commonly done when there appears there might be a problem. The biopsy will actually assess the "quality" of the uterus and give you an actual percentage of the chances of your mare carrying a foal to term.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[justathought]

Thanks for the response. I will check about a uterine biopsy. Are there any articles I can read about this? Are there any specific questions I should ask my vet? And, are there results that tell you that it is just not going to happen?

[Hillside H Ranch]

Thanks for the response. I will check about a uterine biopsy. Are there any articles I can read about this? Are there any specific questions I should ask my vet? And, are there results that tell you that it is just not going to happen?

Biopsies are scored on a scale fro I to III. Grade I is excellent, with a >80% chance of successfully carrying a pregnancy. Grade IIA is good, with a 50-80% chance. Grade IIB is 10-50% and Grade III is <10%. Generally breeding on a IIB is going to be expensive and labor intensive and you probably aren't going to have much luck. These mares are candidates for embryo transfer, though. I wouldn't bother with a IIB unless the mare was something special and you were prepared to get nothing for your efforts. A Grade III is as bad as it gets and I wouldn't breed on a Grade III. One thing to keep in mind is that these percentages are the chance of carrying to term, not of getting pregnant. Many mares with a IIB can get pregnant, but will lose it later.

[justathought]

Biopsies are scored on a scale fro I to III. Grade I is excellent, with a >80% chance of successfully carrying a pregnancy. Grade IIA is good, with a 50-80% chance. Grade IIB is 10-50% and Grade III is <10%. Generally breeding on a IIB is going to be expensive and labor intensive and you probably aren't going to have much luck. These mares are candidates for embryo transfer, though. I wouldn't bother with a IIB unless the mare was something special and you were prepared to get nothing for your efforts. A Grade III is as bad as it gets and I wouldn't breed on a Grade III. One thing to keep in mind is that these percentages are the chance of carrying to term, not of getting pregnant. Many mares with a IIB can get pregnant, but will lose it later.

Thanks - So now I know that even if the mare gets pregnant I don't know how likely she is to carry to term without the biospy. Then I realized that I didn't ask about the relationship of a poor chance of carrying to term to getting pregnant in the first place. Can you advise? I am starting to feel like the more I find out the harder it gets to believe that a foal will ever happen. The mare has both the breeding and performance record to make having a foal worthwhile...

[justathought]

Bump for question in previous post

[clint]

Bump for question in previous post

Note the ending statement in Hillside's post. IIB mares can get pregnant, but they have trouble carrying to term. The uterus is compromised; the embryo can attach early on but as it grows, the uterus is unable to support the embryo/fetus and it aborts. I took on a 19 y.o. mare who had had six foals, and then been left open for a year. I got her in foal fairly easily but for two successive years she lost the foal at about six months. I hadn't had a biopsy done on her when I took her, which was an expensive lesson to learn. Fortunately the mare was a sound, lovely moving upper level dressage horse, and she returned to a schoolmaster life.;)

[facinated]

I tell everyone who breeds to my horse the same thing. Equine reproduction is a specialty. I requires lots of experience. You are much better off sending your mare to a clinic for a week when she is getting to about 15 days from her last ovulation. It is cheaper, and they can either get her in foal or tell you why she isn't.