Handling Stallions

[WombatCA]

Ok, I'm turning to the experienced folks on this board for advice. I'm in the process of leasing a 14 year old stallion that has been used for breeding and riding. I'm only going to be riding and showing him, no breeding. He will be kept with my trainer who is very experienced at handling stallions. I've been told that he's a very easy stallion to handle and deal with.

HOWEVER, this will be my first time working with a stallion. I feel like there are lots of things that I just don't know about them! What tips do you all have to help me not screw up this amazing horse? His current owner has been giving me some advice about how to handle him, but I just feel so naive.

What would you tell someone new to handling stallions? What should I do or not do with him?

Again, just to be clear, I will have lots of help with this horse, but I figured more knowledge can't hurt.
Thanks in advance!

[cheekyhorse]

The biggest thing is to treat him like a horse and not a dragon. If you treat him like a horse, he will act like a horse, but if you treat him like a dragon....well.... A stallion shouldn't ever be allowed to step out of line with people.....EVER. Keep that in mind. He shouldn't get studdy unless breeding, no talking, any of that. I shut that down immediatley with a shake of chain and a growl, 'no talking'. If he is mannerly, that is all it should take. Don't tolerate nipping, pinning ears, kicking, threatening to kick, etc. Same as any horse.
When I am handling my stallion I like to think of myself as the boss mare. The boss mare keeps the stallion in line. That is exactly how he should percieve you. Once you have that respect, you can be the best of friends. They are ALOT of fun, enjoy him, it is great you will have lots of help, and that he is older and experienced. You should learn a whole lot from him. Enjoy!

[amdfarm]

I agree w/ cheekyhorse. I expect the same from any horse regardless of gender and my crew is well aware of my alpha mare status. My stallion is 7yo and I raised him so we have a dang good bond. We respect each other and he has wonderful manners. Although he's not very stallion-like (most don't know he is one until they look) I'm always aware that he is and keep my guard up whenever I'm handling him. Our size differences come into play, too. I look like a little kid next to him, so he could easily fling me w/ a quick turn of his head if he wanted, but he knows better. He's 1800+ lbs and I'm 115 lbs. We're like mutt and jeff.

One thing about them is they like to drop and will masterbate quite regularly if they're happy and relaxed. Don't punish him for this normal stallion behavior unless he's acting studdy and you're handling him. But if you're just grooming, talking to him, petting, etc and he drops, leave him be.

It sounds like your "new" stallion has a solid foundation and will definitely teach you a lot.

Stallions are great!!

[WombatCA]

Thanks for the info! I think you're right about treating him like a horse. On the other hand, I don't want to make stupid mistakes and let him develop bad habits.
It sounds like the biggest thing is to always remain aware that he is a stallion and that I have to keep the boundaries more clear for him than for most horses. Does that sound correct?
His owner mentioned that he does like to rub his head on you and that I shouldn't let him because he's not being cuddly, he's establishing dominance. It's the things like that that I worry about not knowing.
Anyway, I'm sure with all the help I'll be fine. I'm really looking forward to the opportunity to ride and show him. He's a really nice horse!

[pluvinel]

The posters above have given excellent suggestions. I would add that when you first get him, to have the horse at the owner's farm for a week or so and have her show you how to handle him.

Stallions are horses and should be treated as such. However, if he's a smart cookie he will check in to see who's at the other end of the lead line. If he senses that the person is clueless, then he will "test" to see if the person really is clueless. If his test is validated, then he will move the boundaries of behavior until you no longer have a well-behaved horse.

It is only normal. What you need to know is to clearly know what is allowed and what is not allowed. The fact that you are posting on this BB indicated a lack of confidence about handling stallions. The horse will pick up on this. Best to have the owner calibrate you so you can have clear expectations on what the horse is allowed to do or not do.

It is only fair to the horse, so that you keep the same routine he had at home and the same level of expectations are maintained while he is in your care.

[camohn]

Thanks for the info! I think you're right about treating him like a horse. On the other hand, I don't want to make stupid mistakes and let him develop bad habits.
It sounds like the biggest thing is to always remain aware that he is a stallion and that I have to keep the boundaries more clear for him than for most horses. Does that sound correct?
His owner mentioned that he does like to rub his head on you and that I shouldn't let him because he's not being cuddly, he's establishing dominance. It's the things like that that I worry about not knowing.
Anyway, I'm sure with all the help I'll be fine. I'm really looking forward to the opportunity to ride and show him. He's a really nice horse!
Ditto treat him like any other horse. Stallions are generally more sensitive to over correction and will fight back if treated unfairly (overccorected for an infraction) so be firm but not harsh. Boomer, my previous stallion, just loved his head scritched and would rub it on me and I did not correct that. I scratched his head....but if his owner does not want that behavior encouraged then follow her wishes. Every once in an while with Boomer the head rubbing for a scritch would morph into more aggressive SHOVING and he did get corrected for that. Other folks covered stuff well above.

[KBEquine]

Another thing to watch when you're out & about - mare owners.

Many mare owners don't understand stallion behavior & will pass the backside of a mare-in-season under his nose in the schooling ring without a 2nd thought.

My guess is a well-schooled & handled 14 y.o. stallion will have been there/done that and understands he is not to react - but it would be worth asking his owner what strategies work best with this stallion, in situations where there are unthinking mare owners [or even a loose horse].

[Sakura]

Treat him like a horse and not a puppy. No matter how gentle he is don't play with his mouth (stallions are very orally fixated), don't allow any passive aggressive behavior like rubbing you with his head or leaning into you, it could easily turn into a dominating behavior once he knows he can push you around. Always maintain your own personal space... he has his and you have yours. The last trainer I worked with (who has a tremendous relationship with all of the horses he works with, but above all the stallions, I think he has something like 20 stallions at his barn in training) was adamant about not letting a stallion drop while you are handling him (grooming/working in hand/etc.), it is a sexual gesture and he should be reprimanded (usually a stern voice cue will get the job done)... (breeding time is different).

[Equine Reproduction]

... was adamant about not letting a stallion drop while you are handling him (grooming/working in hand/etc.), it is a sexual gesture and he should be reprimanded (usually a stern voice cue will get the job done)... (breeding time is different).

Deal with the behavior NOT the penis. Ignore the penis. I say it again and again and again. While it may be an indication that a stallion is not focused on the task at hand, the penis does NOT have mind of its own (although there are times when it may seem that way). For example, many stallions will drop when they are relaxed and comfortable - and notice there is a difference between dropping and a full erection - not unusual during grooming, or when standing quietly. Punishing a horse simply because he's dropped is unfair.

I use the analogy of dealing with a teenage boy. If he's sitting quietly on the front lawn watching the cheerleaders across the street practice and you come upon him and notice he has an erection, would you punish him? Of course not - at least not unless you're competing for the "Mommy Dearest" award. However, if you come upon him standing on the front lawn with a raging erection, screaming at the girls to "Take your shirts off! Show us some..." (you get the picture) You would probably grab the kid by the ear and drag him inside for a Come to Jesus session.

Always be aware that a stallion "is" a stallion and they are hard wired sexually.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Sakura]

With all due respect Kathy, I have to disagree to an extent. A stallion should know that there is a time and place for certain behavior. Sure the teenage boy analogy fits to a degree, however if the school principal walked by and the boy had his hands in his pants that changes things a bit. My stallion can drop and do his thing all he wants out in the pasture while gazing at the mares or alone in his stall to his little heart's desire, but if I am standing him up in front of a judge he is going to know that it is not the time or place to produce an erection.

[sid]

I have proof that Kathy is quite right.

I purchased one of my stallions as a 2 1/2 year old and the previous owner had punished this young horse so badly when he dropped (using a crop, no less) that whenever he dropped he'd pin his ears, kick at his penis and start to bite at his legs. I was sure he was on the way to becoming a self mutilator. To beat the sexuality out of a young stallion when he is showing no sexual aggression toward the handle is innately unfair. And stallions in particular have a real sense of fairness. It took months for him to understand that it was okay to drop and "think about girls" even in his own stall without his human-induced neurotic behavior. Whenever I'd see him drop, I'd look in his stall and say "good boy" and walk away. I became especially pleased when he gained such trust (it took years) to be able to drop while being groomed totally relaxed, sleepy and happy.

This is a very alpha stallion with a VERY high libido. Once he was in work and might get distracted and drop and puff, we'd jump him! That "inspired" him to put it away (grin!). Never had a problem at shows because we did a lot of working at home with mares in sight so we could train him to stay focused.

My homebred stallion, having never been punished for dropping, has never, ever been an issue at all.

Frankly, I think stallion penises scare control freaks and those who don't take the time to understand the stallion psyche.

[camohn]

The last trainer I worked with (who has a tremendous relationship with all of the horses he works with, but above all the stallions, I think he has something like 20 stallions at his barn in training) was adamant about not letting a stallion drop while you are handling him (grooming/working in hand/etc.), it is a sexual gesture and he should be reprimanded (usually a stern voice cue will get the job done)... (breeding time is different).
Not everone agrees but not ALL dropping is a sexual gesture....I will disagree there. If he drops because he is relaxed while grooming there is nothing sexually aggressive about it. Geldings do that. Both geldings and stallions drop when relaxed out in the field. To me there is a huge difference between dropped because he is relaxed (where I ignore it) and dropped because he is erected/calling/sees a mare.....whole nuther ball of wax. When Boomer did THAT he was taught to back up , lower his head and I yelled at him "not for you". THAT carried over well under saddle. WHen a mare owner or kid would park a mare next to him at a clinic and his head came up/started to snort I yelled at him "not for you" and he would drop his head and back up. You will have to ask his owner if there is a particular cue the stallion you are using has been taught for such situations.

[Equine Reproduction]

With all due respect Kathy, I have to disagree to an extent. A stallion should know that there is a time and place for certain behavior. Sure the teenage boy analogy fits to a degree, however if the school principal walked by and the boy had his hands in his pants that changes things a bit.

BIG difference. Inappropriate behavior. His focus is definitely not where it should be. However, if he was standing there, listening intently to the instructor, but had the misfortune to experience what most young males - regardless of species - do, it would be incredibly unfair to reprimand him for the betrayal of his body.

My stallion can drop and do his thing all he wants out in the pasture while gazing at the mares or alone in his stall to his little heart's desire, but if I am standing him up in front of a judge he is going to know that it is not the time or place to produce an erection.

If he's standing their with a raging erection, he's obviously not focused on the task at hand. And, as I have noted again and again - deal with the behavior NOT the erection. If he's standing their with a raging erection but is totally focused, behaving appropriately and is responding to all of your aids and requests, ignore it.

As a stallion gets older, they learn where and when an erection will be "rewarded" and learn that all other times, there's just no point to it. Unfortunately, we get to deal with a multitude of stallions that are treated unfairly and then the owners bring them to us to try and get them to collect <sigh>. Humans tend to have unrealistic expectations of stallions and often they are handled extremely heavy handed and unfairly (NOTE:!!! I am NOT excusing anyone here of that behavior - just acknowledging and explaining that it occurs far too often). Most of us here have seen the equine penis and it's nothing unusual or to be feared. Most judges have seen one, as well. But I do think that there tends to be too much focus placed on the penis and not enough on the actual behavior and often with unfair and unrealistic expectations. Stallions are NOT stupid and usually figure out pretty darn quickly what is an isn't a sexual situation. Consistency, being fair and having realistic expectations will go a long way to having a happy, well-adjusted, manageable stallion.

I'll be the first to reprimand a stallion that is not focused on the task at hand and is behaving in a sexual manner when he's under saddle. However, if I'm sitting on a stallion, talking with someone on another horse, everyone's relaxed and enjoying the moment and the boy merely drops, unless he starts puffing up, nickering and behaving inappropriately while he's got his clothes on, I ignore it completely. There's a whole lot less tension when I'm handling stallions if they know that they're not going to get reprimanded for relaxing!

We've worked with the stallion Susan is describing in her post. The first time I came near him, he definitely was agitated and worried that I wasn't going to be a kind and understanding handler. And, by being unfair to stallions such as Susan's you stand the very real potential of creating an animal that will be downright dangerous in sexual situation because they fear that their going to be punished for their behavior. Or, you'll end up with a stallion that will just flat out not drop. What would be the point? In their minds, they're just going to be punished for the behavior anyway!

So while I understand where you are coming from, Michelle, and I acknowledge that there are stallions out there that can be reprimanded for dropping and it has no deleterious effect on them, I can assure you, from handling literally thousands of stallions over the years, it "does" have a negative impact on a high percentage of them. Ignore the penis and deal strictly with the behavior and you will find that you have a much saner, better behaved and trusting animal in ALL situations.

Hope that helps clarify things a bit more.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[bingbingbing]

Excellent post Kathy! I wish everyone that has contact with stallions got that memo.
This is so important to realize:
There's a whole lot less tension when I'm handling stallions if they know that they're not going to get reprimanded for relaxing!

When my young stallion was ready to go to shows, the first thing the trainer asked me was "whip or alcohol?" I had no idea what he was talking about. He clarified by asking, "when he drops at the show will you whip his penis or spray it will alcohol". I was stunned. It was beside the fact that our boy was very workman-like under saddle and doesn't drop.

[Sakura]

I never once said that I advocate brutality... and for you all to imply that I have is unfair. My stallion knows that if I step back towards his flanks and make the sound "uh-hum" it is time to put the package away and put the focus back on the task at hand.

[bingbingbing]

Sakura, I apologize if you felt my post was directed at you. It was not. I was simply relaying my experience. :)

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I certainly don't mind a well-behaved stallion dropping when I am grooming him and he is relaxed (not calling or acting up for mares). That's a perfect opportunity to grab it and clean it up good! Thanks for volunteering, Buddy! :yes: I've done this with my youngsters so they are used to having their penis/sheath handled and cleaned which makes life easier when they become big boys. In fact, I have at times encouraged them to drop by lightly and repeatedly brushing the inside of the back leg so that I can look for a bean, etc. I am not encouraging them to get fully erect and masturbate, just relax and drop it so I can give it a good look over. I can brush their legs inside and out normally and not get the same reaction so it has never caused a problem for me.

Camohn - I like the idea of backing up the stallion with a "Not for you" from the ground and how that translates to appropriate behavior under saddle.

WombatCA - I agree that it would be very helpful to spend time with the stallion and owner before moving him so you can observe and replicate her methods. Also, you probably already know this but just in case, never give treats to stallions from your hands. I think its better to never give treats to them at all but some people will put them directly into the stallion's bucket. The problem is that if they smell them they will want to dig and nibble at your pockets, your hands, etc. which can turn into more than a nibble and general mouthiness.

[Daydream Believer]

I completely agree with Kathy and manage my stallions the same way. Ignore the penis and pay attention to the behavior which is what matters. Lots of good advice here! Enjoy your stallion...they are fun to ride and so different from mares and geldings.

[Equine Reproduction]

I never once said that I advocate brutality... and for you all to imply that I have is unfair. My stallion knows that if I step back towards his flanks and make the sound "uh-hum" it is time to put the package away and put the focus back on the task at hand.

I don't believe anyone here implied that you advocate brutality. Hence my statement above: (NOTE:!!! I am NOT excusing anyone here of that behavior - just acknowledging and explaining that it occurs far too often). My posts are merely to give stallion owners a different perspective from someone who "does" deal with a lot of different stallions AND who also rides and trains stallions, when I have time <rolling eyes>.

My position on threads like this will always be the same. I do not accuse anyone of brutality. Those that use undo and unnecessary methods know who they are without my having to point a finger. But I do attempt to explain why I believe what I do and hope that my explanations offer some insight from a completely different perspective. One thing I will note as that many, many, many trainers are NOT breeders and have no real interest if a stallion is collectable/breedable. Consequently, their methods are embraced. Indeed, I can't tell you the number of Quarter Horse trainers that place ALL (yes ALL!!!) stallions in their barns on Regumate with no regard for how that may impact those stallions' fertility. They are, in essence, drugging those stallions. Progesterone is KNOWN to have a tranquilizing effect, as well. Note again!!! I am NOT implying that anyone here uses that method, but I do encourage those stallion owners who have trainers that employ those methods (Regumate, etc.) to take a long hard look at their capabilities as "trainers".

Once again, I hope that clarifies the above posts.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Foxtrot's]

All the above being said, working a stallion in a crowded situation leaves the responsibility on the rider. Mare owners are not expected to go round ducking their heads to see if the horse they are passing is an entire. Then there are those stallion riders who go round shreiking that their horse is a stallion, stay clear!

Also, a stallion is still a stallion and unless he is well behaved (at l4 he probably is or he would have been gelded if he's not breeeding),
the rider still needs to feel confident and competent. Horrible incident where a well known rider got killed by a stallion.
It is not for everybody.

[pluvinel]

My point about spending a week at the owner's farm is illustrated by the posts above. Some people allow the penis to drop, others don't. The point is that stallions need consistency, so the most fair thing to do for the horse would be to understand the "house rules" that he was raised by....kinda like understanding the owner's "child rearing philosophy" as a starting point for you.

Regardless of the age and the excellence in behavior, the stallion will know when the handler is less than confident and/or experienced. One needs to know what the expectations have traditionally been for this horse. What behaviors are allowed....What are not allowed....What behavior is corrected.....How it is corrected.....How strongly is it corrected.

This will be great learning opportunity to develop better horsemanship. Stallion handling is just good horse handling....just that, depending on the animal, mistakes in handling a stallion may not be as easily corrected (or the consequences not as benign) as when handling a gelding.

That said, the only time I have been kicked or bit has been by rank geldings.

[WombatCA]

Thanks for all the good information, everyone! I'll keep you posted about how we do!

[Ladybug Hill]

I never once said that I advocate brutality... and for you all to imply that I have is unfair. My stallion knows that if I step back towards his flanks and make the sound "uh-hum" it is time to put the package away and put the focus back on the task at hand.

So how do you handle his penis or wash him? Has he been collected AI or needed to have his penis directed while breeding live cover? If going toward the flank to teach them to "put it away", then how do you teach them to drop when need be? I would not want a stallion to be touchy in that area.

Kathy does handle a LOT of stallions. Her advice is invaluable.

[Ladybug Hill]

I completely agree with Kathy and manage my stallions the same way. Ignore the penis and pay attention to the behavior which is what matters. Lots of good advice here! Enjoy your stallion...they are fun to ride and so different from mares and geldings.

And DB's stallion is one the best behaved that I have ever seen. Proof is in the pudding.

[amdfarm]

Apologies for opening up a little can of worms regarding the dropping/erection.

On the head rubbing, my "old" gelding tries to do that and it's so annoying, but my stallion does not. I have mares that do it, as well.

Also agree w/ mare owner's. My stallion, even as a youngster, does just fine in the ring w/ all genders including other stallions and mares. He definitely knows to focus on the rider/driver/handler and pays no attention to the others. I'm sure this older stallion will be the same.

We went to a show one summer w/ my friends and a few of their mares, when he was a 3yo and it was his second year breeding. All of the mares were loaded in front and then my stallion was picked up and put next to the last mare/filly of the same age on the trailer, slant load style in a huge stock trailer. It wasn't until we arrived at the show and started to unload that we realized the mare he was next to was in full blown heat. No problems at all. Tied the mares on one side and my stallion on the other by himself. They were in one class together and you never would have known, as they both behaved beautifully, even while tied at the trailer. Not a peep from either one and they rode home the same way w/out incident.

Again, enjoy him!!

[ktm2007]

I have a question (and maybe I should start a new thread...sorry to hijak OP)

How do you reprimand "the talking"? I ask because we have a relatively new stallion in our barn, who is a serious talker. And I think he has been reprimanded in the past for it, because as soon as he starts talking he will fly backwards, as if expecting a punishment. He is a gentleman to be tacked up and while in the cross ties, but as soon as you start hand walking him to the ring, or back to his stall he starts talking, and then gets immediately aggitated. I don't have much experience with stallions at all (and I'm not the one handling him, this is just what I have observed) but the behavior is odd to me. I believe the only time he has been collected was for insurance purposes, and he is relatively young. Does that have an effect on a stallions behavior?

Just generally curious!

[Daydream Believer]

And DB's stallion is one the best behaved that I have ever seen. Proof is in the pudding.

Thanks Chris for your kind words! :) Next time you are down this way you need to stop by and visit! I'd love to meet you.

[Daydream Believer]

I have a question (and maybe I should start a new thread...sorry to hijak OP)

How do you reprimand "the talking"? I ask because we have a relatively new stallion in our barn, who is a serious talker. And I think he has been reprimanded in the past for it, because as soon as he starts talking he will fly backwards, as if expecting a punishment. He is a gentleman to be tacked up and while in the cross ties, but as soon as you start hand walking him to the ring, or back to his stall he starts talking, and then gets immediately aggitated. I don't have much experience with stallions at all (and I'm not the one handling him, this is just what I have observed) but the behavior is odd to me. I believe the only time he has been collected was for insurance purposes, and he is relatively young. Does that have an effect on a stallions behavior?

Just generally curious!

What I would do with him is first...do some groundwork..in a round pen or wherever. Teach him to yield to pressure...move his hindquarters, back up, etc... think something like NH but don't get too carried away with carrot sticks and stuff...Just teach him to move away from you and do turns on the forehand, hindquarters and back with little pressure from you. You should be able to move him away simply with your posture eventually.

Then, when he does get mouthy or vocal in anything other than a breeding situation, tell him "NO!" and if he continues, put him into an exercise and make him work. Don't let him stop until he quiets down and pays attention to you. Do not strike him or hurt him in any way **unless** you are being completely ignored, the situation has become dangerous, and you must regain control. In that case, I'll use a lead rope sometimes to move the offending shoulder or hip that he is forgetting he must yield to my cues....but I don't beat him..merely use it as a correcting aid. The idea is that the groundwork will give you the tools to always be in control and you will be able to redirect his attention from what he is focused on back to you immediately.

In a breeding situation, he should be allowed to express himself vocally and physically unless he is doing something dangerous like striking, rearing or kicking. Stallions will learn when they can and can't be boys if you are consistent and fair about it.

[buschkn]

I have a couple questions as a new stallion owner. My boy is very sweet and well behaved, though he does like to talk. Do you stallion owners not tolerate talking at all? For example, when I lead him out to turn out, he will usually be a bit chatty and talkative, but as long as he is leading calmly and behaving, I ignore his nickers. If he is prancing and ignoring me or bumping into me, he is asked to refocus. Sound reasonable? Or should I insist that he not be talking while I am leading or riding him?

Under saddle he is a very sensitive horse in general, which I like. The most he has done is to nicker to a passing horse (usually geldings! LOL). The other day I was riding back past the paddocks and another gelding (a screamer in his own right) came running and whinnying from afar. Then the 3 mares came galloping. Naturally, this was very exciting and he started whinnying and dancing around and not paying attention. He was very loudly vocal at this point. I just did some circles etc and when he didn't want to go forward away from the girls I gave him a swat with my crop. He pranced back to the barn but I just kept doing figures and circles until he relaxed and really started focusing. Then we were done for the day.

I am not sure if this is the best way to handle this? Again, it has never happened before, but the mares are in heat and were parading about before him. I want to be sure he remains safe in group situations since I hope to show him soon. Any thoughts are welcome.

[sid]

I think you handled that situation very well. Most stallions ARE talkers. I don't reprimand for that. But I DO correct if while chatting if it's coupled with puffing up and losing focus on rider/handler. Big difference. Sounds like your boy lost focus (not unexpected since he's young) and you did the correct thing. Eventually, he'll give it up if you are consistent and fair and keep him thinking "work".

I have a video of Argosy doing one of his first recognized dressage shows where upon entering the ring for the salute at X, he bellowed (but never moved a muscle -- totally in a frame). He went on to complete his test very focused and at the end of the test, at the salute at X, he bellowed again. Without moving a muscle. The rider ignored it and stayed focused, so Argosy did too. It was actually funny how announced himself at the start and at the finish.. totally non-offensive, he never put a body part out of place and scored 1st or 2nd, can't remember. I don't recall him ever doing that again as he started competing very regularly that year.

This the kind of thing that requires a quick and fair response as you bring these guys along. The more work you can do at home in situations like the one you experienced the better prepared you will be for showing. Good luck with him!

[misita]

Kathy, I find that amazing that you mention Regument. My angel Bravo, and yes, you know him well, went to his first hunter/jumper competition. The first thing the trainer wanted to do was put him on Regument. I told him, the deal was off. Bravo was not to have any drugs.

[Sakura]

So how do you handle his penis or wash him? Has he been collected AI or needed to have his penis directed while breeding live cover? If going toward the flank to teach them to "put it away", then how do you teach them to drop when need be? I would not want a stallion to be touchy in that area.

Kathy does handle a LOT of stallions. Her advice is invaluable.

I am not doubting Kathy's experience or her advice. However, there is no one way and different methods work for different people and stallions without ruining the libido of a stallion.

I do allow my stallion to drop during his bath. Generally this is a relaxed extension of the penis and not a raging erection (there is a difference in my book). I take advantage of the opportunity and clean him then. In addition he has no problem teasing mares and getting the job done, we have a system and a routine so that he knows what is expected of him and when. We do not collect him for AI, he has been bred live cover to this point, and there has to this point been no need to help direct him. Again, I do not come in contact with his genitalia when I ask him to put it away, it is a visual and audio cue and in his 12 years it has not hampered his performance in the breeding shed. He is a very well behaved stallion, just this past week my vet made mention of that fact when giving spring vacs. Not hard to catch, stands quietly and knows his boundaries. Really, my guy can't be such an anomaly?

[Sakura]

Double post

[STF]

I have proof that Kathy is quite right.

I purchased one of my stallions as a 2 1/2 year old and the previous owner had punished this young horse so badly when he dropped (using a crop, no less) that whenever he dropped he'd pin his ears, kick at his penis and start to bite at his legs

there was a little QH that a lady had at the clinic and every time he would drop she would kick (yes, kick) his penis and tell him to put it up. She was there to (get this)... collect him and then could not figure out why, for heavens sake, he would kick at the techs when they went to clean it!
Some days ya just say.... 'Whaaa da fuuuu?'

[amdfarm]

Talking... My boy also knows the rules as far as that goes. He knows how I feel about it and even when greeting me his knicker is almost non-detectable, as it's very soft and very low... almost grunt-like. He can whiny the same way, but it's rather pathetic and he doesn't do that very often.

When he's checking mares or breeding he can be as vocal as he likes, but he generally keeps it w/in reason and does the grunt-like nickers then, too. If he didn't I'd probably be deaf in that ear!! :)

At shows, I've heard way more vocal mares and geldings. When he's tied to the trailer awaiting his turn, he's to be quiet and not draw attention to his huge self. Even if I walk off and leave him he's fine.

My boy is rather sensitive and doesn't like to be punished. He's also a pouter if he even thinks he's done something wrong. He'll corner himself and stand w/ his head hung in shame. No, I've never beat him in any way, it's just how he is. He has a strong desire to aim to please and work ethic.

To get him to keep his vocalization down to a minimum took little time, as he learned quickly. I used "No" and/or "Quiet" and then would gently poke him in the nostril or an open handed smack on the shoulder if he was loud at the wrong time, then go right back to what we were doing, regain focus, and ignore it, like any other discipline. If wearing clothes (riding or driving), a quick swat w/ the whip or crop along w/ the "No" or "Quiet" would get his focus back... "good boy" and back on track. Now if he's loud/vocal and I'm not astride or behind him, all I have to do is point at him and rarely say a word cause he knows what it means.

I guess you could say I don't like screamers... of any gender.

[amdfarm]

there was a little QH that a lady had at the clinic and every time he would drop she would kick (yes, kick) his penis and tell him to put it up. She was there to (get this)... collect him and then could not figure out why, for heavens sake, he would kick at the techs when they went to clean it!
Some days ya just say.... 'Whaaa da fuuuu?'

Poor guy!! That's just awful!! Wonder if she's married? :D j/k and couldn't pass that up! LOL

[MeredithTX]

There's some good advice here. I always remind my friends who come out to ride my guy that even though he is polite and well-mannered, I never want to create a situation where he could escape my immediate control. When we're used to handling well-behaved geldings and mares, we tend to get lax about some of the old basics. Remember simple little things like closing and latching the stall door/gate behind you before catching or turning out a stallion, or keeping a firm hold on the reins while you tighten the girth before mounting, or keeping the lead line clipped until you attach both cross-ties. It's easy to get casual about these kinds of things, so it's important to pay attention with your stallion, both for safety and liability.

Good luck with your new boy! I love my stallion dearly and find that I have a very different kind of bond with him than any other horse. It has been a challenge at times, since he is my first, but also an amazing learning experience. :)

[WombatCA]

Thanks again for all the good info. I'm learning a lot and feeling more comfortable because you guys haven't come up with anything that I hadn't at least considered already. I guess I probably do have the "tools" that I need to do this!
Thanks!

[Equine Reproduction]

I am not doubting Kathy's experience or her advice. However, there is no one way and different methods work for different people and stallions without ruining the libido of a stallion.

That is my point. There are a variety of methods that one can implement to accomplish the final goal. It is really, really difficult for many people dealing with stallions as there just isn't much really good information out there on how best to handle them. I certainly remember my first stallion and all the varying advice I received - some good, some absolutely horrible, some of it downright dangerous and some of it just plain abusive. We've now handled so many stallions that it becomes easy to identify what has (or has not) been done to a stallion. We are also fortunate in that we do get the opportunity to watch so many people interact with their stallions, as well as get to "round table" with some of the top handlers, repro people, animal behaviorists, etc., in the world. We don't always agree on particular methods or ideas, but we do generally agree on certain things NOT to do <smile>. And, it gives us the chance to see how others may be dealing with similar situations.

I do allow my stallion to drop during his bath. Generally this is a relaxed extension of the penis and not a raging erection (there is a difference in my book).

Yup, as everyone here has noted. But, usually when a stallion has a "raging erection" he also is probably not focused on the individual handling/riding him.

Really, my guy can't be such an anomaly?

There are certainly many, many, many well behaved stallions out there that are quiet, easy to handle, etc. We would like to see more. Stallions are also very much individuals and what you might get away with doing with one, may be a recipe for disaster with another. We regularly get shipped stallions that have "issues". Trying to rectify the damage that has been done due to poor handling takes a WHOLE lot more time and energy than never going there in the first place. This board is a phenomenal opportunity for learning and exchanging ideas. Not everyone is going to agree and sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. I also recognize that sometimes the knee jerk reaction is to IMMEDIATELY disagree because it's not the way that that someone has been doing it for years - I certainly tend to be in that category <grin>. But, if the information is logical and with a well presented explanation, I know that I'll think on it and at the very least, consider that there may be a different method of accomplishing the same thing. I'm getting old <smile>...and I'm REALLY big on finding things that are easier and get there with the least resistance. Work smarter, not harder...

Do you stallion owners not tolerate talking at all?

Actually, vocalization is an easy way of identifying both for you and your stallion when certain behavior is going to be allowed and when it is not. For example, when a stallion is going to be collected/bred, he is allowed to vocalize, puff up, strut his stuff, etc. As long as he is listening to the handler, behaving safely and sanely (body surfing is NOT a sport we like to engage in here), is not behaving aggressively towards the handler, or anyone else in the breeding area, etc., he's allowed to behave like a stallion. He MUST behave safely and sanely. When he is not in a breeding situation but is calling to other horses, chances are, he's not focused on the task at hand. Put him to work! Stallions are incredibly intelligent and quickly learn to differentiate with very little effort. Mannhattan for years, when he would step out of his stall would let out a low nicker. If he was going to be collected, nothing was said and he would immediately puff up and start trumpeting. If he was going to work, the handler would give a low uh uh. That was it. His entire demeanor would change, he would immediately drop the "puff" and walk out relaxed and on a loose line.

If you're fair and consistent and reasonable, you will find that most stallions will comply fairly quickly. If you have unrealistic expectations and aren't fair, chances are you will be disappointed in the results.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Equine Reproduction]

I have a question (and maybe I should start a new thread...sorry to hijak OP)

How do you reprimand "the talking"?

When I'm dealing with a stallion in hand or under saddle and he begins to vocalize, I put him to work. If under saddle, it means going into a trot with lots of transitions, changes of direction, etc. If in hand, backing up is extremely effective.

I ask because we have a relatively new stallion in our barn, who is a serious talker. And I think he has been reprimanded in the past for it, because as soon as he starts talking he will fly backwards, as if expecting a punishment.

Yup. We've had several stallions in that were obviously handled inappropriately. Flipping their heads sideways as soon as they would whinny, etc. We had one in last year that had an ear splitting whinny when he was brought into the breeding shed. Deafening. He would immediately upon vocalizing, flip his head sideways AND fly backwards. It was startling how quickly he would react. Really, really sad. We did manage to get him to where he could be collected and handled, but you had to keep your hands quiet and low. If you moved your hands at all, he would panic and fly backwards. He is now being managed better, but he will probably have issues for the rest of his life.

Not sure if that helps at all, but hopefully...

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[ktm2007]

When I'm dealing with a stallion in hand or under saddle and he begins to vocalize, I put him to work. If under saddle, it means going into a trot with lots of transitions, changes of direction, etc. If in hand, backing up is extremely effective.



Yup. We've had several stallions in that were obviously handled inappropriately. Flipping their heads sideways as soon as they would whinny, etc. We had one in last year that had an ear splitting whinny when he was brought into the breeding shed. Deafening. He would immediately upon vocalizing, flip his head sideways AND fly backwards. It was startling how quickly he would react. Really, really sad. We did manage to get him to where he could be collected and handled, but you had to keep your hands quiet and low. If you moved your hands at all, he would panic and fly backwards. He is now being managed better, but he will probably have issues for the rest of his life.

Not sure if that helps at all, but hopefully...

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

Yes, a huge help! As I said in my question post, I'm not the one handling him (and I havent really been around many stallions) but his behavior is curious to me.