Rolex Order of Go

[Badger]

I found this explanation about Teddy going first really interesting:

http://www.rk3de.com/

THE TIMETABLE (An explanation)
For the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event, organizer Equestrian Events, Inc. performs an actual formal draw for order of go. By so doing, we are assured that the Dressage and Cross-Country times of competitors are completely random – the luck of the draw.

The luxury of a manual draw is not available to most events because of the number of horses and the number of multiple rides. For these events, the various computer programs that have been developed to assist in scheduling are both a boon to and a necessity for organizers.

Since “the draw for order of go” is such a rarity, there may be many who don’t know how it works. Briefly, we put all the numbers in a bowl and all the horses’ names in another bowl. There is first a draw for competitors with more than one horse, then the draw for single horses. A number is pulled from one bowl and a horse name from another and that becomes the horse’s order in the timetable.

Now, all the above being said, I’m sure there are those of you who are wondering (and lamenting) how Theodore O’Connor was drawn first in the order of go two years in a row. Well, he wasn’t, and I don’t feel in the least guilty about the fact and admit openly that I put him first on my own account both last year and this.

He is, after all, only 14.1 hands high. If it rains, even a little, you all know how the ground at takeoff gets worn away and thus the height of the obstacle becomes greater. A 16-hand horse can compensate, even a 15.1 hand horse can handle it, but take away another 4 inches and it becomes, in my opinion, a matter of safety and horse welfare. That’s why Teddy’s first. He doesn’t gain anything if we have good weather and he won’t be penalized because of his size if we have rain.

Jane Atkinson
Event Director

Very bummed to miss his dressage (we arrive later that morning) but I have to applaud the horse-friendly reasoning behind the scheduling.

[RAyers]

He is, after all, only 14.1 hands high. If it rains, even a little, you all know how the ground at takeoff gets worn away and thus the height of the obstacle becomes greater. A 16-hand horse can compensate, even a 15.1 hand horse can handle it, but take away another 4 inches and it becomes, in my opinion, a matter of safety and horse welfare. That’s why Teddy’s first. He doesn’t gain anything if we have good weather and he won’t be penalized because of his size if we have rain.



So, if by having a small horse I can request special accomodation for the order of go? Teddy is a great horse but what happens if he goes to HK? Do they adjust the rules to fit his size? This does set an interesting precedent. Any horse under 15 hands gets to go first for the best footing?

[flyingchange]

Jeez. Organizers are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[eqsiu]

Hell, I would've said he's first to get people there early.

[snoopy]

The order of go is a draw for a reason.....

[SparklePlenty]

I feel like i could open a can of worms here... but my horse has had soundess issues. When i enter an event i dont ask if i can go first "in case" it rains so she wont get hurt.

I mean Teddy is a spectacular creature... but is (could) this be considered an unfair advantage?? Like RAyers said this is an interesting precedent.. what about the other "smaller horses" at Rolex. I know there have been others around his size, were they granted an early go too?

I'm not sure how i truly feel about it and it truly may not matter whether he goes first or but isn't that what a competition is about? Dealing w/the hand you've been delt so that it's fair across the board?

or am i missing something here?

[bambam]

Hell, I would've said he's first to get people there early.
that is what I figured last year- actually prefer that reason to giving special accomodations to him (as much as I think he is awesome)
interesting

[SandyUHC]

Wow. Is she actually saying he's not a good enough horse for the level if it rains and he isn't first? So this way Karen doesn't have to scratch and lose money?

IMHO and personal sense of fairness it should be the luck of the draw (or computer pick) so all riders are on equal footing, so to speak.

[up-at-5]

I think it makes perfect sense given the safety issue.

That being said, I can also understand why some people feel he is being offered an unfair advantage. All competitors should be given equal chance at safe footing etc.
It's a no win situation, no matter what the order of go, someone is not going to be happy about it. For the sake of little Teddy's safety though, I am all for having him go first. He's just a little guy after all:winkgrin:

[snoopy]

I feel like i could open a can of worms here... but my horse has had soundess issues. When i enter an event i dont ask if i can go first "in case" it rains so she wont get hurt.

I mean Teddy is a spectacular creature... but is (could) this be considered an unfair advantage?? Like RAyers said this is an interesting precedent.. what about the other "smaller horses" at Rolex. I know there have been others around his size, were they granted an early go too?

I'm not sure how i truly feel about it and it truly may not matter whether he goes first or but isn't that what a competition is about? Dealing w/the hand you've been delt so that it's fair across the board?

or am i missing something here?




You got it!!!! I personally believe it to be unfair advantage as well. I am not referencing Teddy at all but ANY horse allowed to by pass a draw....and this is an olympic "selection" trial as well.
You could say though that going first is a disadvantage as well....but the fact is that a horse was allowed to go first to avoid possibly bad footing is not fair to the rest.

[clpony]

Yeah, J.A. for making a meaningful choice and putting herself out there to be tried in the court of public opinion...it was a wise and brave decision.

[rabicon]

I don't see a problem with it, its for his and Karen's safety and that's what matter first and fore most. I can understand completly them saying that if they lose 4 inches of footing in front of the jumps he may not be capable of making the jump safely unlike a larger horse. *Flame Suit On* ;) Also if the other riders that are competing againist him aren't complaining then who are we to complain about it? Honestly, if other riders had a problem with this I'm sure they would speak up, but it doesn't seem to bother them than I see no reason to worry about it myself. *Flame Suit Off* thanks :cool:

[DLee]

Well, lots of spectators will be bummed that he is first to go again because they missed him last year sitting in traffic trying to get into the Horse Park (thankfully I was not one of them).

[flyingchange]

Yah. Well, there's a lot about life and eventing and horse sports that's not fair.

If putting the best interest of the horse in front of "fairness" is really considered so horrible, that just, well, sucks.

I don't think JA is at all saying he "isn't good enough."

However, in light of the shitstorm that is going on in eventing right now, don't you think it might be considered a good idea to try to avoid a serious, headline making accident at the USA's showcase three day event? I think the pony could do well in any footing, but if, God forbid, something were to happen to him and he were running in serious muck, well, it would NOT be good for anyody, including the sport. The responsible thing is to give the pony, given his size, the best footing.

You guys cannot be pleased.

[Bensmom]

Nope, we'll be getting there early enough, right D? :)

Still sure you want to hang with us on Thursday? I've got my shopping goggles on!!! :D

Libby

[DLee]

Nope, we'll be getting there early enough, right D? :)

Still sure you want to hang with us on Thursday? I've got my shopping goggles on!!! :D

Libby

Oh baby you know it!!

[blyst99]

This could also be a disadvantage? First one on course not able to see others go to see how it rides? Problem fences etc...

[useventers]

Either your horse is a **** horse or he isn't. The weather is part of the eventing game and if you decide it's not in your horse's best interest to run, then you withdraw. That's a decision Karen would need to make for Teddy, not the organizers. Where do you draw they line on a small horse... 15h 15.1h 15.2H??

[JER]

Are the other competitors ok with this?

[rabicon]

but a small horse and a pony are two different things. Ponies are built differently than a horse, no matter if it is a "sportpony" or not. They are different in many ways. Its amazing that a 14.1 pony can compete in this level and he probably could take the jumps in the crappest of conditions but why not put this little guys safety first. Karen I'm sure would withdraw him if need be but why not let him run and be an example for others that no matter the size of the horse/pony its all in the size of the heart ;) Lifes not fair, its not fair in anything you do. In work, school, friends, etc... and horse shows by far are not fair usually esp. ones that have judges scoring you ;) Its biases and thats life. You suck it up and go on or you complain and cry about it and draw the situtian out as long as you can. Myself well I like to suck it up and go on because life is to short to worry about little things of this sort. Let the pony run, let him kick butt, and let him show the world he can do it, even if he has to run first.

[VicarageVee]

Oh jeeze, you guys. Lay off.
Who cares? So Teddy goes first.
Is Dutton kicking up a fit? Is Buck? Are any of the other competitors complaining?

No? Then let it go.

[closetoperfectionfarm]

This could also be a disadvantage? First one on course not able to see others go to see how it rides? Problem fences etc...

AGREE, I would hate to be first on any **** course, especially if I am riding a pony, that takes major you know whats!

[rabicon]

Oh jeeze, you guys. Lay off.
Who cares? So Teddy goes first.
Is Dutton kicking up a fit? Is Buck? Are any of the other competitors complaining?

No? Then let it go.

Said it and agree with it!:cool:

[Emstah]

I remember when Mary King was riding King William at Badminton they let her go first with him because it was supposed to be a terribly hot day. Because he was such a huge horse, they were worried for his safety in the heat that was expect later in the day. I remember thinking how great it was that they not only thought of that, but acted upon it- giving the horses with a disadvantage the best chance possible to have a safe and successful go. I didn't see any problem with it then, and I don't see a problem with it now in Teddy's case.

I'm really suprised at how many of you think he should not be given this "advantage." You are all such big Teddy fans, and also SO concerned with safety for the sport and the horses, why would we not do for Teddy- who has become such a phenomenon in eventing and generated a lot of publicity and intrest- all that we can do for his safety?

[LSM1212]

To me, it all works out. There are pros and cons either way. Going first to avoid footing issues = Plus. Going first and not being able to see how the course rides by watching or talking with others = Minus.

So it all evens out! JMO.

[Blugal]

To combine two threads, just have the order of go in ascending height. Then people would be more interested in buying small event horses. :lol:

[Meredith Clark]

What if its supposed to rain all morning and then clears up... will they change it around and let him go last so he's not going in the rain and they can rake the footing around the jumps before he goes?

[Ja Da Dee]

To me, it all works out. There are pros and cons either way. Going first to avoid footing issues = Plus. Going first and not being able to see how the course rides by watching or talking with others = Minus.

So it all evens out! JMO.


I have to agree with this post, there is a certain "con" and a potential "pro". Also, it doesn't sound like this is something Karen has asked for, but something that the organizers have done on their own. Anyone riding a pony would probably get the same treatment.

[eqsiu]

but a small horse and a pony are two different things. Ponies are built differently than a horse, no matter if it is a "sportpony" or not.

Please. He's a midget TB, essentially. It's not like he's a pony breed (1/8 does not count).

[ponyjumper4]

Please. He's a midget TB, essentially. It's not like he's a pony breed (1/8 does not count).

Exactly, my pony is a QH, who unlike her parents and siblings just didn't make it past pony height.

If they're worried about bad footing from rain, then he shouldn't be trying out for the Olympics this year in a place where it will be typhoon season.

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=useventers;3154452]Either your horse is a **** horse or he isn't. The weather is part of the eventing game and if you decide it's not in your horse's best interest to run, then you withdraw. QUOTE]


:yes:

[Invested1]

Where do you draw they line on a small horse... 15h 15.1h 15.2H??

Hummm, this is interesting!

So, following the logic of Teddy going first, wouldn't it then make sense that the order of go should be in height order--smallest to largest?

[Jealoushe]

WOW! Im shocked how many of you think this is no big deal! :confused:I know everyone loves Teddy, but really deliberately giivng him the first round *specifically* so he gets the best footing IS giving him an advantage whether he does better or not isnt really the point. They are clearly stating it is so he will have the best footing..why, because hes short? Give me a break.

Sure, hes a pony, but this pony won the Pan Ams. He can compete right along with the big guys and has proved it. Ya, hes short and if the footing gets deep he'll have to jump an inch higher, so will all the other horses. Height has nothing to do with scope or jumping ability, and Teddy is proof of that. What about the heavier horses who will have more pull down from the deep mud? If he cant compete by the same guidlines as everyone else, then guess what, he shouldnt be competing! But we all know he can.

If this is about safety, then they are saying that it is unsafe for Teddy to run cross-country if the footing gets bad. So does this mean Teddy is only capable of this level if everything is in his favour, is he just barely making it around? How safe is it to be eventing a horse at this level if that is the case??

[Blugal]

I kind of wonder if there's an FEI rule about the "draw" that could be protested after the fact by someone who, for instance, ran in the mud and came 2nd to Theodore O'Connor by a couple time faults. (There was a somewhat similar incident concerning Lucinda Fredericks Burghley 2006: due to an untimed hold-up, she had time faults which were then reduced... it was arbitrary, and probably fair, but someone else who would have won but for that protested.)

[eqsiu]

I imagine that any competitor who has a problem with it will protest before the start of the event. There is still almost a week before rides start.

[rennyben]

OMG, people, get over it. What do our hunting brethren say? "Leave it!"

You're making yourselves look like idiots. Who is going to take your " babbling voices" seriously if you whine about this. What may seem an advantage may not be on the day....

Be THANKFUL to JA for doing such a great job at Rolex and thankful she has the horse's welfare in mind.

[SandyUHC]

Preferential treatment does not seem like the eventing way, and measured discussion does not equal whiny or "babbling voices". (And welcome to being one of the idiots, there, rennyben.) Could be we're just surprised to see laundry in the hamper?

Interesting argument that preferential treatment = safety though. Since size and heat tolerance can be issues, maybe the event vet should assign ride times. Or just have a sign-up sheet, I'm SURE that would work.

[Jealoushe]

what horses welfare? Teddys? What about all the other horses jumping in wet muddy footing (if it even rains). They are all enetered in the same event and should have the same treatment. Give me a break, this is favoritism at its worst!

[JER]

The FEI rules on the draw are here (http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Eventing/Rules/Documents/Ch%20I%20-%20II%20General-Gen%20Rules%20-changes08-3.pdf). It's a big pdf, go to page 26.

Relevant sections:
Article 512 DRAW
1. Events with Individual Classification only
If there is only an individual classification, the draw will be conducted by the Organising Committee and the order of starting published in the programme.

3. Approval of Method of Draw
The method of draw must be approved by the Technical Delegate having consulted, if possible, with the Ground Jury. He may also approve rearrangement of the order or number of blocks of teams or individual riders where the number of competitors makes it necessary.

BTW, the horse who's first on XC is also the first horse in the dressage arena. Is this the case for Teddy?

I don't think being first in dressage confers any advantage at all. Quite the opposite.

If the competitors are ok with it, I don't see a problem.

However, I was at Badminton in 1999 where the rain started after the 2nd horse was on course and never stopped. It was ridiculous at times. Not surprisingly, the winner was the first horse on course and the runner-up was the second. (These two riders were named Ian Stark and Mark Todd.) But this was also back in the days of A, B, C, D and steeplechase was a mess, with numerous falls and lots of retirements/withdrawals. This was also during the brief period where time faults were set a 1 fault per second and the fastest time of the day -- Ian Stark's -- was 30 seconds over. The scores were astronomical.

The 3rd-placed horse went out on XC in possibly the worst weather of the day but that horse was Out and About so bad weather didn't have any impact on a perfect XC round.

[SandyUHC]

Well, it says rearrangement is okay regarding the number of competitors, nothing about the height of the horse. And if your horse isn't big on crowds, having your ride at the butt-crack of dawn can be helpful, hey, it's not like you need to see how a few horses are getting around the arena to plan your dressage test. ; - )

Oh, and VicarageVee, thanks for checking with Phillip and Buck and the rest for us. Nice to have it on good authority that they don't mind a bit.

[2016 RoyalCrown KTug]

I think it makes perfect sense given the safety issue.

That being said, I can also understand why some people feel he is being offered an unfair advantage. All competitors should be given equal chance at safe footing etc.
It's a no win situation, no matter what the order of go, someone is not going to be happy about it. For the sake of little Teddy's safety though, I am all for having him go first. He's just a little guy after all:winkgrin:


Ditto

[InVA]

I just joined this thread. no offense to karen or teddy but this is RIDICULOUS!

Eventing is SUPPOSED TO BE about all sorts of horses competing on THE DAY against all sorts of other horses... COME WHAT MAY.

I groomed at rolex a few years ago when it rained buckets... halfway through XC.. was that FAIR to the HALF of the competitors that had to pull up or scratch ???? If they had gotten an EARLIER DRAW then someone else might have won that day..

Like SNOOPY said, there is a draw for a reason.. to make it FAIR! this is not fair. If it isn't SAFE for teddy to compete in bad GOING - then maybe he shouldn't be competing at this level!

[Hilary]

I can applaud them for thinking about this. Last summer my mare was the 124th horse to go out over a course (yup, seven divisions of novice) where it had begun raining at 6am and not stopped.

By the time we jumped, some of the fences were 3'6-3'9" exertions (for Novice) and the take offs were deep sucking mud. The event made valiant efforts to keep the take-offs from deteriorating, but 123 other horses made a mess.

I should have scratched, but I didn't.

However, the difference btween mucky going at Novice, and mucky going at Rolex could mean a lot more than loss of confidence.

At the time I felt was just my bad luck of the draw - to be in the 7th division of Novice just happens sometimes. If I am honest with myself, I would have been peeved if I'd known someone got to go first because their horse was small. Mine is 15.2 And green. Not fair to ask her to jump 3'6" XC fences in the mud (but my bad too for pressing on and asking her- she did it.

[useventers]

You're making yourselves look like idiots. Who is going to take your " babbling voices" seriously if you whine about this. What may seem an advantage may not be on the day....


It's hard to deal with the current safety concerns vs. maintaining the integrity of the sport and there will be lots of continued discussion about it. I would hardly say people that are questioning this decision are looking like "idiots". I've been around Kentucky twice, in 1990 and 1991 and riding there in the rain and mud is not easy for ANY size horse.

[BigRuss1996]

BTW, the horse who's first on XC is also the first horse in the dressage arena. Is this the case for Teddy?

I don't think being first in dressage confers any advantage at all. Quite the opposite..



Actually the crowds at Rolex are always less on the first day of Dressage and the ring will be quieter which for a horse who can get wound up at Dressage ...yes... it would be an advantage to go first .

[AmericaRunsOnDunkin]

Wow. Is she actually saying he's not a good enough horse for the level if it rains and he isn't first? So this way Karen doesn't have to scratch and lose money?

Probably more of it if rains and he isn't first and scratches, then the EVENT doesn't lose money from those who are going to see Teddy. Or buy the DVD Or subscribe online. Or buy the t-shirt....you get the idea.

Edited to add: I can understand both sides of the argument. But personally, it doesn't really bother me.

[InVA]

I just joined this thread. no offense to karen or teddy but this is RIDICULOUS!

Eventing is SUPPOSED TO BE about all sorts of horses competing on THE DAY against all sorts of other horses... COME WHAT MAY.

I groomed at rolex a few years ago when it rained buckets... halfway through XC.. was that FAIR to the HALF of the competitors that had to pull up or scratch ???? If they had gotten an EARLIER DRAW then someone else might have won that day..

Like SNOOPY said, there is a draw for a reason.. to make it FAIR! this is not fair. If it isn't SAFE for teddy to compete in bad GOING - then maybe he shouldn't be competing at this level!

What ever happened to HORSEMANSHIP???

[JenJ]

If they are drawing first from all those competitors with more than one horse entered, would Karen not have one of the first 5 or 6 spots anyway? I don't think there are that many people with multiple horses entered (are there?).
Maybe they could have accomplished nearly the same thing, without the controversy. In bad weather, while there is a real difference between going first or 40th, I think there is far less difference between going first or 5th.
Or does the rider not get to choose which horse goes in the early slot and which in the later slot?

[BigRuss1996]

I totally agree...

I just joined this thread. no offense to karen or teddy but this is RIDICULOUS!

Eventing is SUPPOSED TO BE about all sorts of horses competing on THE DAY against all sorts of other horses... COME WHAT MAY.

I groomed at rolex a few years ago when it rained buckets... halfway through XC.. was that FAIR to the HALF of the competitors that had to pull up or scratch ???? If they had gotten an EARLIER DRAW then someone else might have won that day..

Like SNOOPY said, there is a draw for a reason.. to make it FAIR! this is not fair. If it isn't SAFE for teddy to compete in bad GOING - then maybe he shouldn't be competing at this level!

[Badger]

The riders with multiple horses always have an advantage in that one of their horses will go in the very first rounds (for both dressage and x-c) and one will go at the very end for both phases. Plus, their second horse gets the huge advantage of having a pilot that has already ridden the course. A truly level playing field would limit riders to a single horse per event, all orders of go drawn at random.

[useventers]

If they are drawing first from all those competitors with more than one horse entered, would Karen not have one of the first 5 or 6 spots anyway? I don't think there are that many people with multiple horses entered (are there?).
Maybe they could have accomplished nearly the same thing, without the controversy In bad weather, while there is a real difference between going first or 40th, I think there is far less difference between going first or 5th.
Or does the rider not get to choose which horse goes in the early slot and which in the later slot?

I agree. They should have just put Teddy somewhere in the top group, one of Karen's horses would have been there anyway. I noticed Mr. Big is in the first group, I wonder if that was her draw or if he was put there for safety. Isn't Mr. Big a little guy too??

[InVA]

I totally agree...

thanks big russ, finally a real horseman/woman emerges from the detritus!

[JER]

Actually the crowds at Rolex are always less on the first day of Dressage and the ring will be quieter which for a horse who can get wound up at Dressage ...yes... it would be an advantage to go first .

Score-wise, I'm not so sure. The dressage leader is very often in the afternoon on the 2nd day.

I think Jane Atkinson, more than anything else, doesn't want a PR nightmare on her hands. Given what happened last year at this same event, I understand her willingness to arrange the order this way. Given what happened after Red Hills, I understand even more. And better to be upfront about it.

I was surprised that she admitted to doing this last year as well without any of the same PR pressures.

So -- what happens if someone protests? The FEI rules say the order of go can be rearranged but what about a protest?

And what happens if it pours rain in the early hours of the morning or at the start of the event? Can TPTB re-rearrange the order of go to protect Teddy?

And are there other groups who should be protected as well? Young Riders? Old riders? First-time horses? Canadians?

Is there (dare I say it) a Team factor in here as well? If Teddy went late in the day, it rains, KOC withdraws him, he'd likely not be going to Hong Kong and he's about the most popular equine in the sport.

[snoopy]

Score-wise, I'm not so sure. The dressage leader is very often in the afternoon on the 2nd day.

I think Jane Atkinson, more than anything else, doesn't want a PR nightmare on her hands. Given what happened last year at this same event, I understand her willingness to arrange the order this way. Given what happened after Red Hills, I understand even more. And better to be upfront about it.

I was surprised that she admitted to doing this last year as well without any of the same PR pressures.

So -- what happens if someone protests? The FEI rules say the order of go can be rearranged but what about a protest?

And what happens if it pours rain in the early hours of the morning or at the start of the event? Can TPTB re-rearrange the order of go to protect Teddy?

And are there other groups who should be protected as well? Young Riders? Old riders? First-time horses? Canadians?

Is there (dare I say it) a Team factor in here as well? If Teddy went late in the day, it rains, KOC withdraws him, he'd likely not be going to Hong Kong and he's about the most popular equine in the sport.



You are not suggesting that politics are in play are you????

[Jealoushe]

The warm up ring is also quieter when youre first, the air is cooler earlier in the morning. These are advantages, but really the point is, that its ridiculous Teddy gets special treatment because he is small, and they want this horse to clean up.

[Saskatoonian]

What nonsense to have a draw for every horse but Teddy. What else is he exempt from?

It is the rider's responsibility to determine if the course conditions are right for the horse at the time she's supposed to go, according to the draw. What makes JA a better judge than KOC?? Come on.

[JER]

You are not suggesting that politics are in play are you????

Politics? Huh, what? Me?

No, my friend, I was just looking out for the little people, Canadians included. Is that politics?

:D:D:D

[InVA]

You are not suggesting that politics are in play are you????

More accurate would be the pony having the best chance of success and so onward to the Olympics hence more good press for the team.. ooops.? have I said something untoward????

[shea'smom]

If you are riding more than one horse, like Karen, then one has to go early and so it is Teddy. What is the big deal. I don't think going early is an advantage for a horse that does great dressage, almost always better scores on the second day.

[SandyUHC]

ooops.? have I said something untoward????

Yeah, actually, first idiots and now detritus. Whatevah.

[InVA]

If you are riding more than one horse, like Karen, then one has to go early and so it is Teddy. What is the big deal. I don't think going early is an advantage for a horse that does great dressage, almost always better scores on the second day.

If that is the reason, I totally agree. but jane Atkinson said what the reason was..

whatevah, indeed...

[rabicon]

So all of you aganist this what's going to happen next? If it rains and Teddy wins are you going to complain that it wasn't a legit win because they put him first?? All of you love teddy and so what if he wins and it makes him look better to the public, that should be a good thing, the pony for the little guy type of thing. What if the weather is clear and he wins, is that not going to be legit either because he had better footing. If thats the case than every horse that goes in the first 5 should always win. Riders that ride more than one horse on that day have an advantage over other riders that can only afford to ride one horse. Is this not fair? Should they not be allowed to do this because it puts them at an advantage of being able to actually ride the course first? It's politics and thats that, like I said before life is not fair so get over already. I hope Teddy goes first and KICKS BUTT!!!! :D

[annikak]

If there was not a rule, then I think that Teddy going first smacks of favoritism but then again, he is a favorite so? Who's gonna complain?

But there are guidelines or whatever, and they should be followed. Otherwise they are just words. And if I were a rider, I might not say anything, but...really, is it fair? I just don't think so.

I also don't think running first is such a great thing, either.

I sit firmly on the Teddy Lovers Bench, and so for HIS sake, it's great to see they are thinking about him. But, IMHO this sport is looking at a lot of politics, and behind the scenes and this just feels to be following that trend. I do NOT like that, not one bit. Yes, I am no one- and my chance of ever doing Rolex are nil, but I would, if I were to enter, adhere to the rules and expect those running it to adhere to them also.

So, who is going to complain? Dunno.

[SandyUHC]

In the words of Rosanne Rosanna Danna...

"Nevermind."

[Jealoushe]

The point is NOT about him going first and whether or not it will end up being an advantage. The point is that Teddy and KOC received special treatment based on the horse whereas ALL other horse/rider combinations had to follow the lottery and had their order of go chosen at random. This also happened last year with Teddy??? wth..

Can organizers really just decide for themselves which horses go when. Are they going to make the stadium course short distances as well so he has a better chance of finding his distances and jumping clear? I guess we won't know unless they publicly come out and tell us but I will really wonder about a lot of the things that go on these days. No wonder Rolex can't attract the international competitors.

[CiegoStar]

What's interesting is that the Rolex order of go has never seemed random. It's always stacked with big name riders going early and late, usually because they have more than one horse. And I was one of those who thought Teddy went first last year to get the crowds out early.

This is one issue I'm just going to take a pass at, rather than having a vehement opinion. I don't think it will really affect whether he wins or loses, and I applaud the organizers for thinking of his safety. He is a huge asset to this sport, and it would a public relations nightmare if he were hurt or worse.

[InVA]

In the words of Rosanne Rosanna Danna...

"Nevermind."

You mean Emily Litella, but point taken...

;-)

[SandyUHC]

Can't even screw up a post right.

[snoopy]

He is a huge asset to this sport, and it would a public relations nightmare if he were hurt or worse.


As for EVERY horse

[CiegoStar]

As for EVERY horse

Yes and no. There is much more public attention on Teddy than any other horse on that field. This isn't a reference on whether I think Teddy deserves to be safer than others, it's just an observation on his popularity with the media and general public.

[Doodle]

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...TePwwJPI7yCYg&

[Jealoushe]

if Teddy needs protecting, he shouldnt be out there, and who is risking this fragile pony and why???

Like was already said, if you wanna play with the big boys you have to play by the rules.

[Jealoushe]

If you are riding more than one horse, like Karen, then one has to go early and so it is Teddy. What is the big deal. I don't think going early is an advantage for a horse that does great dressage, almost always better scores on the second day.

Because they said he goes first because of the footing, they never mentioned anything about multiple rides!

[Saskatoonian]

This is not about Teddy, just as it is not about KOC. It's about applying the same rules to everyone competing. That, for me, is a really easy question.

And for those who must make it about Teddy, altering the rules to give him an advantage in the form of better footing - and make no mistake, that is what's going on here according to JA - detracts from his accomplishments.

[Doodle]

link is gone..

[InVA]

[QUOTE=Doodle;3155228][ur
tsk tsk tsk!

[DLee]

This is not about Teddy, just as it is not about KOC. It's about applying the same rules to everyone competing. That, for me, is a really easy question.

And for those who must make it about Teddy, altering the rules to give him an advantage in the form of better footing - and make no mistake, that is what's going on here according to JA - detracts from his accomplishments.


Exactly.

[Equibrit]

Pole position is usually taken by a team with experience who don't mind going first and can report any problems. Why would you think that was an advantage? Isn't that why they are usually referred to as "trail blazers"?

[pwynnnorman]

You may think I've been avoiding this, but I only just finished grading papers. Christan called me and mentioned this thread, but I didn't realize it was ALL about him.

Egad!

And it just so happens that, while I truly appreciate JA's consideration, I'm actually in the camp of "I wish she hadn't done that." IMO, since there aren't that many multiple-horse riders anyway, he would have ended up high up in the draw without assistance. And having one or two or whatever go before him won't make much difference in the depth of footing on take off (or whatever).

[Edited to add: I see that Laine, Stephen, Phillip, Boyd and Karen are the only ones with multiple rides and they are 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 (5 is maybe a scratch?), so if the multiple rides had their own draw, the lowest Teddy would have started would have been 5th.]

BTW, the first thing I thought of when I read about this was how easily he handled Radnor in deep footing. He ended up 16th because of a run out at the 5th (drop to skinny, understandable as Karen had only been riding him a few weeks at that point and he caught his foot on the banner going down the drop), but OTHERS had done so poorly anyway that, had Karen gone for time (which she didn't after the run out), he would have placed top ten. So I appreciate this action, but I, too, don't really think it was necessary.

Isn't it so sad that we have to tiptoe through this now, because of all that has happened this season? I most definitely do not envy JA or any organizers right now. I know everyone is holding their breaths about the FL CIC**/*/.5* tomorrow. Those hard-working folks don't deserve these kinds of burdens!

[sarahrbrymer]

Being first to ride a CCI**** is not an advantage - it's completely the opposite. The footing may be "perfect" but there will be no one telling her how it rides or what to look out for. :winkgrin:

[ponyjumper4]

I don't find it much of a disadvantage either. He went first last year and finished 3rd.

[MaryKay]

WOW! Im shocked how many of you think this is no big deal! :confused:I know everyone loves Teddy, but really deliberately giivng him the first round *specifically* so he gets the best footing IS giving him an advantage whether he does better or not isnt really the point. They are clearly stating it is so he will have the best footing..why, because hes short? Give me a break.

Sure, hes a pony, but this pony won the Pan Ams. He can compete right along with the big guys and has proved it. Ya, hes short and if the footing gets deep he'll have to jump an inch higher, so will all the other horses. Height has nothing to do with scope or jumping ability, and Teddy is proof of that. What about the heavier horses who will have more pull down from the deep mud? If he cant compete by the same guidlines as everyone else, then guess what, he shouldnt be competing! But we all know he can.

If this is about safety, then they are saying that it is unsafe for Teddy to run cross-country if the footing gets bad. So does this mean Teddy is only capable of this level if everything is in his favour, is he just barely making it around? How safe is it to be eventing a horse at this level if that is the case??

I couldn't agree with you more. I think the decision was made in the spirit of safety and that I can understand but that is up to Karen at the time of the ride. That is part of her job. If she doesn't think he can make it around the course safely, given the current conditions, then she needs to scratch-it is a decision that ALL competitors have to make.

[RAyers]

pwynn, I agree that JA should have never said a thing. This was a pure public gaff.

To me this has nothing to do with advantage or disadvantage. It has everything to do with equal application of the rules and practices. Hence why I suggested this could be a precedent. Now somebody in the future could say, "JA, my horse is 14.2, you let Teddy go first in 2007 and 2008. Even though I am not part of the Olympic Team, I think it would only be fair you let me go on the best footing becasue I have a "short" horse." True there is no specifc rule, but JA in making her decison public, did open the door for folks to argue for specifc exceptions rather than follow the intent of what has been done.

Reed

[Jealoushe]

Its the last line that makes me so enraged

"That’s why Teddy’s first. He doesn’t gain anything if we have good weather and he won’t be penalized because of his size if we have rain."

meaning......we want everything to be in his favour and make it as easy for him to get around clean as possible. If they were actually worried about his safety they wouldn't be letting him run. gahh I love Teddy, but I also love all the brave horses and riders that go out there and deserve an equal shot.

[DLee]

Shouldn't they start doing this in racing too? Let the short horses take the inside gates instead of drawing for post positions?

[VicarageVee]

I'll say it again.
How many on this board are entered to run Rolex next weekend?
Those of you who are, can take your problems up with the ground jury.

[DLee]

I'll say it again.
How many on this board are entered to run Rolex next weekend?
Those of you who are, can take your problems up with the ground jury.

Just because I'm not entered does not mean I can't have an opinion.

[SandyUHC]

Gee, VV, say it one more time. I've been neglecting my ignore list lately.

Besides, you still haven't answered how it is you think you speak for the riders -- I assume you are entered? Otherwise you certainly wouldn't be giving your opinion here, now would you.

[Centuree]

I think if anything, with Teddy's experience and past performances combined with Karen's brilliant riding, they are in a position of advantage, not disadvantage, over most of the other riders. Publicly announcing that teddy should go first is ridiculous.

[VicarageVee]

Gee, VV, say it one more time. I've been neglecting my ignore list lately.

Besides, you still haven't answered how it is you think you speak for the riders -- I assume you are entered? Otherwise you certainly wouldn't be giving your opinion here, now would you.


I simply think that it is the right of KOC's fellow competitors to decide if this is a problem or not, from what I understand, no one cares. So why does everyone here?

[mbarrett]

My question: Is the Rolex a required outing for Olympic hopefuls?

If not ...... This is my prediction: Karen and Teddy do dressage, and then scratch for the rest of the event. If they are not REQUIRED to complete the entire event for the Olympic selectors, why not just bow out? Save Teddy for later.

Didn't Amy do this with one of her horses a few years back when it was a World Championship or Olympic year?

That's what I think will happen.

[SandyUHC]

I simply think that it is the right of KOC's fellow competitors to decide if this is a problem or not, from what I understand, no one cares. So why does everyone here?

WHY DO YOU?

And EXACTLY how is it that you have come to understand that the other riders don't care? Cite, please.

[4Martini]

And are there other groups who should be protected as well? Young Riders? Old riders? First-time horses? Canadians?


As I was reading this I was thinking that maybe Young Riders and first timers should be given a spot say not in the top 5 -10. So more experienced riders could relay any issues with the course before they went. B/c I think it would be pretty rough for a first time horse with a young rider to be the first around. Also, if anything went wrong they would have less experience to deal with it.

[Robby Johnson]

Actually the crowds at Rolex are always less on the first day of Dressage and the ring will be quieter which for a horse who can get wound up at Dressage ...yes... it would be an advantage to go first .

But the judges don't start throwing out the 9's until Friday afternoon. ;)

[HappyHoppingHaffy]

I have to say I ride a vertically challenged horse and IMHO I would not want him/us given any special considerations because of his height. Either we can do something under the same conditions as everybody else, or we can't. We have other advantages that long, taller horses don't have (like we can turn on a dime, he is very, very straight, I can get him deeper into corners than I could my wiggly OTTBs of the past)...
I understand the officials are trying to do the right thing, especially in light of recent events, but doesn't this sound an awful lot like affirmative action? A good idea on paper, but inherently flawed in implementation

[NRB]

Ugh, you people love to complain about anything.....I say just leave it. True that JA probably should have kept that info to herself....but lets stop beating her up ok? She's a wonderful organizer who made a little mistake, she's human. Let it go. If the competitors have a problem with it they can say so.

Hell I would have said that they let Teddy go first b/c that draws the crowd in earlier.

[retreadeventer]

Who says you have to jump the exact center of every fence where everyone else jumps? The footing wears away the worst in front of skinnies. A rider has a choice on all others and the face of the majority of Rolex XC fences is how wide? Over eight feet? Then Karen can pick her line to avoid bad footing.

Or don't riders have a choice?

What about Bruce's ride in the rain on Little Tricky? Was that "fair"? Sometimes extraordinary conditions bring out the brilliance, just ask anyone who did the Training three day last year in the monsoon. You learn what you are made of in adversity.

And, as Wynn says, he would be 5th to go at least anyhow.

[Sannois]

WOW! Im shocked how many of you think this is no big deal! :confused:I know everyone loves Teddy, but really deliberately giivng him the first round *specifically* so he gets the best footing IS giving him an advantage whether he does better or not isnt really the point. They are clearly stating it is so he will have the best footing..why, because hes short? Give me a break.

Sure, hes a pony, but this pony won the Pan Ams. He can compete right along with the big guys and has proved it. Ya, hes short and if the footing gets deep he'll have to jump an inch higher, so will all the other horses. Height has nothing to do with scope or jumping ability, and Teddy is proof of that. What about the heavier horses who will have more pull down from the deep mud? If he cant compete by the same guidlines as everyone else, then guess what, he shouldnt be competing! But we all know he can.

If this is about safety, then they are saying that it is unsafe for Teddy to run cross-country if the footing gets bad. So does this mean Teddy is only capable of this level if everything is in his favour, is he just barely making it around? How safe is it to be eventing a horse at this level if that is the case??

I am surprised that Karen even will go along with it. I mean thats what is so cool about Teddy, he can play with the BIG dogs and doesnt require any special treatment. Sure hes small but the way that boy leaves room over the fences, no onw has told him he is small.
The thing about this is if you start making special allowances for one, where does it stop, to be fair then, dont you have to make allowances for anyone who asks?? Seems really odd. More dumbing down of the sport I say. :no:

[flypony74]

I am on both sides of the fence on this.

Advantage of going first: the footing. Disadvantage of going first: the rider doesn't have the benefit of feedback from other riders. So while Teddy will have the advantage of guaranteed good footing for his run, the later competitors do have the advantage of course feedback and can make adjustments to their ride based on that if need be.

It is a tough call. I kind of wish she hadn't done that, either, because if Teddy comes out with a top placing, some folks will say that it is because he went first....even though I'm don't think he even NEEDS special consideration (because I think he is brilliant :) ). But, maybe it won't be wet and all this will be a moot point anyway.

[HECS04]

Does anyone know if KOC or any other competitor has made any type of statement about this? Just curious what their thoughts are.

[royal militron]

They are thinking safety all... I don't understand what the big uproar is all about. They want to be safe, why don't we let them do their jobs if they are moving in the right direction?

[Gnep]

Since evrybody always puts his finger on rider responsebility, especialy the BNs, I wonder if a horse is so maxed out at a level, that it needs the best footing and would become realy dangerous for horse and rider if the footing turns south, were that leaves the responsebility.

Does that mean, that the Super Pony at the Rolex is nothing more than a publicity stunt.

I understand the argument, but I fail to understand the rest.

Either they can cut it or not, if they need special treatment, than they don't belong and the rider should not have the horse there, bad example for the rest.

[Robby Johnson]

Ugh, you people love to complain about anything.....I say just leave it. True that JA probably should have kept that info to herself....but lets stop beating her up ok? She's a wonderful organizer who made a little mistake, she's human. Let it go. If the competitors have a problem with it they can say so.

Hell I would have said that they let Teddy go first b/c that draws the crowd in earlier.

"You people." I love it.

[LLDM]

Wow, Teddy would probably be so pissed. I hope no one shows him that press release. Is there a horse rep he can go to? One without too many people - so he's not too busy to be found?

SCFarm

[Shrapnel]

Well, I'm sure the event director at the Olympics will put Teddy as No.1....;)

[RSEventer]

The point is NOT about him going first and whether or not it will end up being an advantage. The point is that Teddy and KOC received special treatment based on the horse whereas ALL other horse/rider combinations had to follow the lottery and had their order of go chosen at random. This also happened last year with Teddy??? wth..

Can organizers really just decide for themselves which horses go when. Are they going to make the stadium course short distances as well so he has a better chance of finding his distances and jumping clear? I guess we won't know unless they publicly come out and tell us but I will really wonder about a lot of the things that go on these days. No wonder Rolex can't attract the international competitors.


I just watched Teddy jump the stadium in Ocala today- no, he did not need the strides shortened- he jumped well out of stride and is just an incredible athletic pony. It was like watching Michael Jordan play basketball- grace in action! TEddy is an absolute inspiration to watch and Karen does a terrific job of riding him. Today, they had David O Conner being jump crew there in stadium. (That's pretty awesome to see too- the president of USEF is running out and putting up poles because ....well, I guess because they did not have enough staff!!!)
As for Rolex attracting international competitors- what! I thought they always did. Didn't an Australian win it recently, then a British guy?

[JER]

Wow, Teddy would probably be so pissed. I hope no one shows him that press release. Is there a horse rep he can go to? One without too many people - so he's not too busy to be found?

SCFarm

:D:D

I heard the horse rep at Rolex is an import and has very limited English skills. And a 'horse' rep is just that, a horse rep. What's Teddy gonna do, flash his pony card at him?

But those are just rumors.

[CookiePony]

Today, they had David O Conner being jump crew there in stadium. (That's pretty awesome to see too- the president of USEF is running out and putting up poles because ....well, I guess because they did not have enough staff!!!)


They absolutely need volunteers (very few paid staff!), so next time sign up if you can! At the November event pwynnnorman and FlightCheck, an owner and the announcer respectively, were doing jump crew. PM One Star-- she is the vol. coordinator, or go here: http://www.flhorsepark.com/ImaVolunteer/SignUp/tabid/174/Default.aspx. :yes:

[DLee]

:D:D

I heard the horse rep at Rolex is an import and has very limited English skills. And a 'horse' rep is just that, a horse rep. What's Teddy gonna do, flash his pony card at him?


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[purplnurpl]

Yes and no. There is much more public attention on Teddy than any other horse on that field.

The rap over Teddy is starting to scare me.
It reminds me of Barbaro.

True story: I was watching Belmont with my mother. There was just so much hype over him. Even through the pre race stuff it was all Barbaro, Barbaro, Barbaro. Yey Barbaro. Just before the horses started to load I looked over at my mother and said, "there is just too much pressure on him. He's going to break down." 20 seconds later....

There have been other shorties running ****s. Did those horses get to run 1st as well?
Something reaks of OC here.
If I were a rider at Rolex I would probably protest. My horse has a time of day that his flat work/jumping is best and he would benefit from running 10th on XC. He is best on his game 10-15th in order of go as am I. Anything before that is less safe for us as a team. And my horse breaths best in lighter/cooler weather.

I said this a really long time ago in one of Denny's threads.
It's sad that the best thing the US has going for them is a pony.

I know everyone loves Teddy but lets not forget about the other super stars out there that deserve a chance. There are others that are probably better. Teddy had a lucky go at the Pan Ams. Brilliance gets you there but luck puts you at the top.

[asterix]

wow, I think the only good thing to come out of this thread is the idea of the horse rep.

My horse is now angling for this job, so he can try and make sure there are fewer trakheners and more skinnies on his next course. :winkgrin: He gets a lot of flak from the other horses though, as he is a warmblood and they are all convinced he's a plant from the Germans to mess up their sport (until we get to the aforementioned trakhener, that is. They shut up after that).

[CiegoStar]

The rap over Teddy is starting to scare me.
It reminds me of Barbaro.

True story: I was watching Belmont with my mother. There was just so much hype over him. Even through the pre race stuff it was all Barbaro, Barbaro, Barbaro. Yey Barbaro. Just before the horses started to load I looked over at my mother and said, "there is just too much pressure on him. He's going to break down." 20 seconds later....



Twas the Preakness, but I get your point. Yes, it is a little scary. But all the more reason to be careful then. Also, I have complete faith that Teddy's owner, handlers, and rider all have his best interests at heart.

[Meredith Clark]

The rap over Teddy is starting to scare me.
It reminds me of Barbaro. .


Not sure i'd go that far. He's def. a star in eventing but I work at a tack shop and when we got his Breyer in there were a lot of "Who?" ...."Is that the person's name or the horse?" and..."why's he so special?"....from the customers.
(I don't think the Breyer represented him well.. made him look a bit pudgy!)

I think its sad that people assume that the lords of eventing (whom ever they may be) are so caught up in Teddy that they are turning a blind eye to all the other amazing horses and ponies out there and would resort to giving him "extra help" to keep him going.

[lstevenson]

I don't see what the fuss is all about. It's a disadvantage to go first in dressage (judges usually warm up to giving really good scores much later in the day), so if it's an advantage to go first on x-c then I think that evens it out.

[magnolia73]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see what the fuss is all about.

It's a SPORT, a competition. Order of go should be as random as possible and left to chance. And the "reasoning" is that the horse needs to go early since he might not perform well in bad conditions. So you give the horse a specific slot to control that one horses conditions with no consideration given to the performance "shortcomings" of other horses. It doesn't matter that you have goven him a disadvantage elsewhere. It just is not very sporting. What if they gave a pony size race horse the inside start since his step was too short and it made the race harder if he started in the outside? Wouldn't happen....

And if the margin of error is such that icky footing could make it more dangerous for a pony to require this for safety reasons, perhaps the course shoould be reconsidered.

[Jealoushe]

Is everyone paying attention???????

Its NOT about whether its an ADVANTAGE or NOT..its the fact that the organizers made and EXCEPTION for this one and only entry so he "wouldnt be punished if the weather was bad". What about all the other horse and riders who have all worked equally hard and deserve and equal shot.

And if anyone thinks the dressage judges won't be giving out 9's to Teddy, youve got your head in the sand. This pony already has been given the best shot for cross...

As for riders, there are a few riders who are very upset about this, but if they are wanting to qualify they cant say a dam*ed thing. How team spirited does it look to complain, they wont risk their chance of not getting selected over not being a team player.

[InVA]

Is everyone paying attention???????

Its NOT about whether its an ADVANTAGE or NOT..its the fact that the organizers made and EXCEPTION for this one and only entry so he "wouldnt be punished if the weather was bad". What about all the other horse and riders who have all worked equally hard and deserve and equal shot.

And if anyone thinks the dressage judges won't be giving out 9's to Teddy, youve got your head in the sand. This pony already has been given the best shot for cross...

As for riders, there are a few riders who are very upset about this, but if they are wanting to qualify they cant say a dam*ed thing. How team spirited does it look to complain, they wont risk their chance of not getting selected over not being a team player.

Well said, Jealousne,
It seems to me that "they" are doing everything to make sure this pony makes the team. no matter what. to me this is the equivalent of removing a coffin if a certain favorite horse is ditchy...

[Lori B]

The next time the organizers of an event do something that is unpopular or not well understood, and they don't explain themselves, or are generally inscrutable, you all should remember how much people got their panties in a twist over this decision and the organizers' candor about it.

While any arbitrary decision like this has a potential implication of unfairness, I can't blame the organizers. They would rather jump off a bridge than see something bad happen to Teddy, because he is very visible and very popular. Probably not a necessary or an entirely politically savvy choice, but understandable nonetheless. Can Teddy hack the course on the same terms as everyone else? His performances so far would seem to suggest that he can. If the most unfair thing that happens in **** eventing is arbitrary shuffling of the order of go, that doesn't seem so catastrophic to me. Going first is seemingly unhelpful for dressage scores, unhelpful for getting a read on how the XC course is running, but helpful for footing. Sounds like it could be a wash in most cases. ????

[Invested1]

Anyone know who the second smallest horse is and where they fall in go order?
Could be an interesting exercise if we had all the horse's heights....

[bambam]

I do not know, but I suspect the next smallest one is Mr Big who goes in about the 8th slot

[2ndyrgal]

Tickles me to pink that Teddy's first again. If none of the competitors complain, none of us should. You all just need to get up a little earlier, when Teddy went last year, I was standing between the Head of the Lake and the Creek Oxer. He flew that oxer like a steeplechase fence. Go Teddy Go!

[Jealoushe]

The next time the organizers of an event do something that is unpopular or not well understood, and they don't explain themselves, or are generally inscrutable, you all should remember how much people got their panties in a twist over this decision and the organizers' candor about it.

While any arbitrary decision like this has a potential implication of unfairness, I can't blame the organizers. They would rather jump off a bridge than see something bad happen to Teddy, because he is very visible and very popular. Probably not a necessary or an entirely politically savvy choice, but understandable nonetheless. Can Teddy hack the course on the same terms as everyone else? His performances so far would seem to suggest that he can. If the most unfair thing that happens in **** eventing is arbitrary shuffling of the order of go, that doesn't seem so catastrophic to me. Going first is seemingly unhelpful for dressage scores, unhelpful for getting a read on how the XC course is running, but helpful for footing. Sounds like it could be a wash in most cases. ????


The point is not whether it is an advantage or not, its the fact Teddy received special treatment so *incase* conditions were bad he would have an advantage not all other competitors would have. I sound like a broken record.

If you want to talk safety and they were looking out for him, fine, but that is the RIDERS job on day 2 to decide if the horse is up to the challenge. If this weren't Teddy I wonder where everyone would be sitting on this issue.

[HECS04]

I feel like the same things are being said again and again. Yes everyone wants Teddy to be safe, but on the other hand no it is not fair to other competitors. Can we agree to disagree and just all hope that EVERYONE goes around safely!? :D

[Lori B]

Jealoushe, I didn't say it wasn't the rider's job. I don't think the organizers said that either. I just think that, while one can disagree with this decision, its ramifications are not so earth-shatteringly terrible. Folks are very nervous about safety in the aftermath of the many recent accidents and the completely appropriate loud airing of concerns and demand that the sport make changes to address those concerns. It doesn't surprise me that the organizers did this, even if I don't necessarily agree that it was fair, necessary, or a great idea. I'm just saying, "calm down already!", and that given Teddy high public profile and the climate of anxious concern about safety, the organizers of the event wanted to protect THEMSELVES from the risk that Teddy having a bad go would expose the organizers to bad press and criticism as well. Not defending the decision, just saying, I don't know why folks are so shocked or angry.

[Jealoushe]

because Teddy isn't the only horse out there. All the horses entered are special, and deserve the same treatment. Some are older, don't handle the heat as well, don't like certain fences etc. You can't implement safety tactics for one and not for the others.

[TBCollector]

Anyone know who the second smallest horse is and where they fall in go order?
Could be an interesting exercise if we had all the horse's heights....

I know he's out, but there were a lot of "El Primero just walked under Teddy!" jokes being made at the awards presentation ceremony last year...

[magnolia73]

I don't know why folks are so shocked or angry.


I'm not shocked or angry. Just a bit disappointed and kind of find it unfair and frankly find the logic sort of faulty. It's not fair to ask Teddy to jump a bit higher in sloppy footing because he is small? :confused: Maybe his size makes him lighter and more agile? More sure footed? It sends a bad message (hey, this sport is so on the edge of safety that we need to adjust the playing field to keep some horses from being at risk....). Again, PR. Why not- Teddy goes first as KOC has the most XC rides.

You know- if the footing is going to be bad- adjust and make the course safer for ALL horses. IMO, making some jumps smaller or changing routes or keeping an eye on footing on a wet day is being aware of safety. Letting a small horse go first is only enhancing the safety of one participant.

I don't think its a big conspiracy- just another PR error on the part of eventing.

[Lori B]

Magnolia -- agreed.

[thumbsontop]

I have to agree that it's not really fair. I understand the thinking, but higher jumps and worse footing would affect many horses. Horses running later are always going to be at a disadvantage as far as footing/height goes. There could very easily be a 15.1 horse that has just enough scope to make it in great conditions, or an older horse, or recently injured one.

I also agree that if the other competitors didn't complain than it's hard to do so ourselves. I wonder what Karen O'Connor thinks of the special treatment.

[roki143]

not adding anything to the discussion, but can someone send me the link to where it (the statement, not the order of go) was posted on the Rolex website - I can't seem to find it (or missed the part where it was stated) - or was it removed?

[Jealoushe]

Its on the first page of this thread, as far as I can see it has been removed from the website.

[lstevenson]

It's a SPORT, a competition. Order of go should be as random as possible and left to chance. And the "reasoning" is that the horse needs to go early since he might not perform well in bad conditions. So you give the horse a specific slot to control that one horses conditions with no consideration given to the performance "shortcomings" of other horses. It doesn't matter that you have goven him a disadvantage elsewhere. It just is not very sporting.



It's never been completely random as riders with multiple rides have usually gone first and last. If there is an advantage to both those slots then they should not be automatically placed there.

And WHY would it not matter if they have given him a disadvantage by making him go first in dressage? If I really wanted to win I would be not happy about having to go first.

[lstevenson]

And if anyone thinks the dressage judges won't be giving out 9's to Teddy, youve got your head in the sand. This pony already has been given the best shot for cross...


You just wait and see. It's common knowledge that the dressage judges start out a little conservitive. Tell me when an early rider has EVER won the dressage at Rolex. It's almost always someone on Friday afternoon who gets top marks. And it's not a coincidence.

[Jealoushe]

I can confidently say that a lot of first riders have won major three day events, I wouldn't know about Rolex...have not looked into it. However, like I have said numerous times in this topic, it is not about whether there is AN ACTUAL ADVANTAGE OR DISADVANTAGE, it is the singleing out of ONE horse giving them what THEY THINK is an advantage over possible bad footing.

[lstevenson]

I can confidently say that a lot of first riders have won major three day events,



Really? Which ones and when? Proof please. :)

[shea'smom]

One of Karen's rides has to go very early. So, to me it is no big deal if it is TEddy and he is first.
If you have multiple rides, dont you get to choose who goes first anyway?
I think it is a rare situation that anybody riding first will win the dressage.

[Jealoushe]

I will dig up the proof, but for now please realize the point isnt about whether it turns out to be an advantage or disadvantage for Teddy, it was a totally unfair decision, and Id like to see everyones reaction if it happened to them.

[jumpxc]

You used to be able to choose which horse you would like to ride first if you had multiple rides but that option was taken away years ago.
Amy

[useventers]

You used to be able to choose which horse you would like to ride first if you had multiple rides but that option was taken away years ago.
Amy

How do the riders with multiple horses draw now? Is their 1st draw their 1st ride and their 2nd draw their 2nd ride?
If that is the case, it makes me think Teddy was chosen as KOC 2nd ride. Why would there be such fuss if he was chosen as her 1st ride, he would have been in the top few horses anyway.
It really makes me think he was drawn to run in the last group and that got them a little worried about his safety.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Teddy is a great horse but what happens if he goes to HK?


I believe at events like the Olympics...the team sets their own order of go. While they couldn't necessarily make him first of all horses, he could be sent out as the first American horse and go early as possible. This probably wouldn't be a bad position for him anyway since Karen is one of our more experienced riders and usually that is what you want in the 1st position to report back to the others on how the course rides.

I don't have an issue with it...I doubt many riders really care either...he would have been very early in the order anyway and this puts one of our best riders out on course early to see how things ride.

[jumpxc]

How do the riders with multiple horses draw now? Is their 1st draw their 1st ride and their 2nd draw their 2nd ride?
If that is the case, it makes me think Teddy was chosen as KOC 2nd ride. Why would there be such fuss if he was chosen as her 1st ride, he would have been in the top few horses anyway.
It really makes me think he was drawn to run in the last group and that got them a little worried about his safety.

I just remember back in the late '80s on the entry forms there was a section that if you were riding multiple horses you could list your order of preference. I can't speak for how it is done now as I have never been in that kind of position. There is a section in the rule book for the "draw" and how it is supposed to be done I believe. Clearly though JA and possilbly others made this decision on their own since it is stated on the website.

What years did you compete at Rolex?
Amy

[Firefox]

Being first to ride a CCI**** is not an advantage - it's completely the opposite. The footing may be "perfect" but there will be no one telling her how it rides or what to look out for. :winkgrin:

You guys need to get a life!! Really being first is no real advantage here! Look at the norm in weather patterns and the dressage ride from the second day are always better!! therefore start out in a much better position, cant improve on that once it is done! I think that it is great that Teddy is even there!! Go Teddy!!

[annikak]

Well said, Jealousne,
It seems to me that "they" are doing everything to make sure this pony makes the team. no matter what. to me this is the equivalent of removing a coffin if a certain favorite horse is ditchy...

I have this thought, however- What will the selectors think about exceptions being made for Teddy? I wonder if that might not be in his favor. They want the best horse/pony for the job.... (i have not read all the way thru, maybe someone has thought of this already??)

[devcubber]

As an organizer for "smurf" eventing (BN - Prelim) at a lil' old HT in area IV, it makes me sick to think of the pressure JA must have from the USEA, the selectors, the owners, the riders... to make all the right choices. I'm surprised at her candor on why Teddy was chosen for first run, but I'm not surprised that she did it. I think most people would be shocked to know how much, within the rules, organizers do to keep their competitors (or associated people) happy. JA is trying to juggle everything, soothe the PR nightmare that is safety in eventing and combine her regular **** with an Olympic year. She has done a great job as organizer all these years, and she must have made this decision knowing it would cause flack, yet doing it anyway based on conviction? pressure? unraveling pre-event organizer nerves? I think the complaints that need to be registered will come from the other competitors at that event.

I do not envy JA's position right now!

[annikak]

I do not envy JA's position right now!

No truer words! I can only imagine! No matter what, she does an amazing job!

[Jealoushe]

You guys need to get a life!! Really being first is no real advantage here! Look at the norm in weather patterns and the dressage ride from the second day are always better!! therefore start out in a much better position, cant improve on that once it is done! I think that it is great that Teddy is even there!! Go Teddy!!

and if you read the thread, you would see that its the unfairness that is making people angry, not whether or not its a disadvantage. JA does have a hard job and she does it well, but this is definitly something that should not have happened.

[ponyjumper4]

One of Karen's rides has to go very early. So, to me it is no big deal if it is TEddy and he is first.
If you have multiple rides, dont you get to choose who goes first anyway?
I think it is a rare situation that anybody riding first will win the dressage.

If that was the reason Teddy went first, then no one would care. But it wasn't. That's where the problem is. They, as in the organizers, wanted him to go first for "safety" reasons, ie special treatment because he's a pony. Mr. Big isn't that much taller. On JA's logic, Mr. Big should be going second. If they are that concerned that the pony can't do it if it gets messy, then the pony shouldn't be in the competition. Where's the safety in that?

[lstevenson]

and if you read the thread, you would see that its the unfairness that is making people angry, not whether or not its a disadvantage.



See in my mind it is only 'unfair' if he was given a clear advantage. And I just don't feel like he was. As far as the placings go, I feel like he has been given a slight disadvantage by making him go first.

[snoopy]

See in my mind it is only 'unfair' if he was given a clear advantage. And I just don't feel like he was. As far as the placings go, I feel like he has been given a slight disadvantage by making him go first.


I think this really has to do with the fact that a "compensation" was made for one particular horse with the idea of giving him the best possible footing should the going be deep. But I will agree, historically, that going very early on the first day of dressage is NOT an advantage.

[Doodle]

I think this really has to do with the fact that a "compensation" was made for one particular horse with the idea of giving him the best possible footing should the going be deep. But I will agree, historically, that going very early on the first day of dressage is NOT an advantage.

I agree snoopy, and I am sure that you agree that it is a DISTINCT ADVANTAGE to be PUT first ON PURPOSE by the organizer, to take advantage of the BETTER going BEFORE the footing becomes deep... Right? That is THE POINT of this entire thread..
THAT is unfair to the rest of the field!