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HorseBum
Apr. 17, 2008, 09:27 AM
Anyone practice this? Good thing to learn if you are on the trails a lot!! I have yet to learn it, so I am looking for some more information!!

Any help would be appreciated!!!

carp
Apr. 17, 2008, 10:24 AM
There's a lot of controversy over it. People who dislike it point out that it has two serious defects:
1) You can flip the horse if you do it wrong.
2) It doesn't do a whole lot of good if your horse is bolting on a trail too narrow to do a circle on.

That being said, I'd advise getting lessons on how to do it rather than trying to learn it from a book. It really helps to have a knowledgable person looking at the things you are doing and pointing out your mistakes. For instance, I have a tendency to pull upwards, which is a classic way to flip the horse. I got a crusty old trainer to work with me and ream me out every time I goofed until keeping my hand low was automatic.

Guilherme
Apr. 17, 2008, 10:39 AM
It's not a bad thing to teach; it is a bad thing to rely upon.

IMO the "one rein stop" is just another "club in the bag." A good trail horse should stop on one, two, three, four, or no reins.

Good luck with your training.

G.

Freebird!
Apr. 17, 2008, 10:41 AM
I never really used them until I started riding/training this very stubborn 5 year old paint. When his owner bought him, he was in this bosal thing, but it had this hard metal piece under his chin, that was obviously painful. I immediately switched him to a gentle snaffle, but even now, he can still be quite fussy, and hot when his owner takes him out to trail ride - which is all she does with him. After teaching him to give to pressure, and as soon as his nose touched my boot, he would be released, I was finally able to hack him out on a loose rein. As soon as he got quick, or tense though, I would immediately bring his nose back to my boot. For him, the one rein stop has worked wonderfully, and it is something that his owner is able to do as well, but it isn't a cure all for every horse.

The trick in doing it, is a) releasing the horses as SOON as he gives, and b) you have to do it before the horse reaches the point of no return (ie. going at a full out gallop through the woods, etc) So, timing is everything.

Auventera Two
Apr. 17, 2008, 10:44 AM
I have used the ORS, but I guess more accurately, what I do is called "disengaging the hindquarters." Basically you aren't just reefing the head around to your knee, which CAN flip a horse. Instead you are using your legs, seat, and body weight in conjunction with the rein to force the hind legs to cross over each other, totally shutting down forward movement. You're also displacing the shoulder.

A horse CAN run with it's head cranked to it's side. The horse does not follow the head. The horse follows the SHOULDER. If you displace the shoulder and force the hinds to cross each other, you shut the horse down within 1 stride.

John Lyons teaches this and has tons of GREAT articles on doing it safely without harming the horse. He teaches how to train it so you aren't burning the horse out, frustrating him, or creating a horse that sucks back behind the bit and gets cranky.

I do NOT like the method of just reefing the head around to your knee 50 times a day. That is counterproductive and damaging, in my opinion.

Basically Johh Lyons says that you DO have the ability to change the cognitive patterns of the horse and override that innate flight instinct. People think that since horses are fight or flight, you can't do anything but ride the wave. That's just not true. If you thoroughly the horse train through hundreds of repetitions,to respond to ABC with XYZ actions, he will almost always return to that when the crap hits the fan. This is the same concept of teaching a horse to spook in place. If you allow your horse to cavort around like a lunatic every time he sees a gum wrapper, then he doesn't know any different. But if you systematically TRAIN the horse to respond to something scary by turning and looking at it, or stopping, or walking on calmy, then he remembers that he isn't allowed to cavort around like a lunatic at his own free will.

He contends that if horses were 110% fight or flight, like their wild ancestors, they would crash through fences and jump out of round pens every time they got a little spooked. Horses would never starve to death because innate instinct would take over and they'd jump fences and graze wherever they chose. But horses have been domesticated for so many centuries that a lot more of the instincts are bred out than people realize.

Obviously he does not make the claim that ALWAYS in EVERY situation you will stop the horse within a stride or two of a bolt, but at least 99% of the time on 99% of the horses, if you train it correct, and do it correctly.

I have used this method to shut my horse down a couple of times and found that it doesn't even come close to flipping the horse on the ground or tearing the jaw off, like people contend that it does.

I have subscribed to his mag for years and also his discussion board. You can visit the John Lyons website and search for old articles, then buy them individually if you want, or requst back issues with the articles you want.

Here is photo from my website of me and a handler teaching my horse to disengage the hindquarters, displace the shoulder, and STOP.

http://www.hphoofcare.com/TrainingORS.jpg

Notice that the horse's head is not jerked around to my knee. The rein and lead are LOOSE. What we're doing here is changing the path of the shoulder and hindquarter. People get into trouble because they think they can just start hauling on one rein and whip the horse in a circle when he's in a full out gallop and it doesn't work that way.

Auventera Two
Apr. 17, 2008, 10:55 AM
Also - this method pretty much contends that horses actually RARELY ever just gallop balls to the wall because they're terrified. They usually do it because they get too much sweet feed, not enough turnout, not enough work, and not enough training. The rider finds themself 2 miles down the road from home on a trail ride, the horse has a little tantrum at something minor - like a mailbox - then the horse says WEEE! Let's have a great time and gallop all the way home! The horse has never been trained that such behavior is NOT appropriate and that he WILL be shut down immediately for doing it.

Not many people have ever truly GALLOPED flat out - 6th gear - on a horse. The horse gets up to a hand gallop and the human is terrified, saying the horse ran away and tried to kill them. But it really probably didn't happen that way.

I don't like Pat Parelli but he does have a saying I agree with 100%. He says "I've never been run away with on a horse. I just rode faster."

chicamuxen1
Apr. 17, 2008, 02:35 PM
The main point is to teach the ORS to your horse.

TEACH IT TO THE HORSE!!!!

It is a disengagement of the hindquarters, as someone said. It isn't just for emergencys either. I have an endurance horse that can get competitive when being passed and can really get strong. Because he's been taught a ORS, I can remind him of the fact that I will stop him if he doesn't back off and quit pulling! I just very slightly start the stop, just a mild bend, not a turn, and he lightens up.

By the way, a ORS works just fine on a narrow trail. Well, I wouldn't do it on a narrow ridgetop trail or cliff side trail. Unless a horse has lost it's mind the horse will pull up just fine as soon as you start to turn them into the brush or trees on the side of a trail. Most bolts or runaways are being done by a horse in full control of their faculties. Usually you are headed towards home (amazing!) or they don't want to be left behind. As long as you have:

TAUGHT THE HORSE THE ONE REIN STOP! they will respond and come back easily enough.


Bonnie

BEARCAT
Apr. 17, 2008, 04:27 PM
Yes, TEACH it first before you NEED it!

Teach it at the walk in a controlled environment, then at the trot, then the canter.
Then "up the ante" and teach it somewhere else where there is more distractions. Back at the walk first, then trot and canter. Then move the horse somewhere else, maybe a more "spooky" spot, with tarps flapping or horses cantering in the distance.

Then go practice on the trail.

When you need it, it will be second nature to your horse!

meaty ogre
Apr. 17, 2008, 04:48 PM
Interesting post. I guess I've learned 2 versions?

When I was taught the ORS initially by an up/down riding instructor, I was taught to plant one hand on the neck for stability, and then to pull upwards and back on the other rein. Not sharply, but a very firm tug and release, tug and release, sometimes alternating sides if that is what it took to get the horse's attention. This was combined with a deep seat. It was taught as a safety to all the lesson horses, and I think as a defense mechanism, they became a little dull to it, but later when I bought my own horse, I found it very effective. Also, when done to a lesser degree, it can be very helpful in the showring to slow your horse who is building and building...more powerful than a halfhalt but less descreet than ramming into the rump of the horse in front of you!

On RFDTV I've noticed most of the western clinicians refer to the ORS as more of a lateral pull on the reins, combined with the appropriate leg cue to "disengage" the HQ. I think they both have a use. I like to circle when I have the room, but it can be hard on the horses joints and also impossible on a narrow trail. Not to mention if you only bend their head around to the side many are still fully capable of bolting that way. Or with their head pinned to their chest. Very counterintuitive but a good thump with the legs is sometimes needed with the rein cues to get their attention. I think sometimes it completes that necessary circuit from their brain to their engine and gets their attention long enough to regain control.

yellow-horse
Apr. 17, 2008, 05:51 PM
i've used the ors on trails, you have to practice 1st for it to be effective i think, my horse got to the point where when she was scared it would reassure her, got to where if i lifted the rein a bit it would be enough to disengage her hind quarters, on narrow trails i used it like more of a shoulder in or haunches in type thing with a little leg

gabz
Apr. 17, 2008, 06:17 PM
Yes, TEACH it first before you NEED it!

Teach it at the walk in a controlled environment, then at the trot, then the canter.
Then "up the ante" and teach it somewhere else where there is more distractions. Back at the walk first, then trot and canter. Then move the horse somewhere else, maybe a more "spooky" spot, with tarps flapping or horses cantering in the distance.

Then go practice on the trail.

When you need it, it will be second nature to your horse!

Clinton Anderson was on RFD the other night about this... that was one point that made this MUCH more clear to me... TEACH THE HORSE FIRST.

sometimes it takes hours, sometimes days, sometimes weeks.
and.. once the horse KNOWS it in calm times, teach it under stress.
ORS = disengaging the hind quarters.
Once the horse LEARNS what the lesson is, you shouldn't need to JERK the head around. that's when you can flip a horse - when it's UNEXPECTED.

HorseBum
Apr. 17, 2008, 07:17 PM
Wow, Thank you everyone. I really appreciate all the time you have taken to fill me in!! Auventera Two.. Thanks for the great explanation and long post!

I started today teaching them. They both did as good as expected.. The only problem I came upon is that they turn their heads around all the way to my boot with barely any pressure on the rein at all.. Is this acceptable? They disengage their hindquarters, but I barely have to put pressure on the rein. They are so nosy the go straight for my boot!!!!! I don't know when to release it, because they don't leave any room to go farther!

Is this normal?? Suggestions????

tpup
Apr. 17, 2008, 08:37 PM
I feel blessed to have a trainer who taught me the ORS before most anything else! First to "soften" my horse. And then at a W/T/C. The key to doing it is to bring the horse's nose 3/4 of the way to your boot - not all the way. They finish the last 1/4 by giving to the pressure - a little bob of the head, and you release it and release it hard for reward. "Throw away the reins" like they are hot (don't let go of them of course). The ORS has helped me many, many ways and times.

I was taught that one of the most important things about it is that you can never do it "too early". Stop the horse BEFORE he/she bolts or at the first stride or two. ORS when you see the ATV's popping out of the woods - not after, if that makes sense.

My horse had a little bolt the other day - trying to head back to the barn. Shame on me that I waited too long to do the ORS. My brain was in a panic and all I kept thinking was, OMG he is bolting!! He's never done this before. I should have ORS'd at the first stride or two. I was able to stop him but it was much harder, and I couldn't ORS once he got going really fast as there was a fence on one side of me and trees on the other. I learned my lesson fast and hard! As my trainer says, shut him down EARLY.

I practice it every ride at the W/T/C. It is second nature to my horse, not a surprise, and often he realizes it/picks up my seat cue before I even do it.

I am a HUGE fan of it, and Clinton Anderson's methods and feel much safer riding with it.

carp
Apr. 17, 2008, 10:55 PM
I agree with tpup-use the one rein stop to shut the horse down immediately, as soon as you get the first hint of trouble. My rule is to pick up the rein and initiate a one rein stop as soon as the horse breaks gait, within two strides. I may also one rein stop if the horse is ignoring my seat and speeding up even without breaking gait.

I agree with everyone that it is very important to teach your horse what one rein stops are all about before you ever need one. Just drill them, the same way you'd practice trotting over cross poles or whatever else you do to school your horse.

Regarding when to do the release, that question is why I'd recommend getting some lessons with someone. The release is the reward for doing the right thing, so the timing is important. Simplistically, the horse moving when it isn't supposed to be moving is the wrong thing. You release when the horse does the right thing, which is to stop moving its feet. However, there are all kinds of fine nuances on it. A lot of people regard the one rein stop as a progression from flexion and crossing over--people have already touched on that idea in this thread. It sounds like your horse is already quite familiar with flexion exercises--now the question is whether the horse is truly yielding to pressure or simply putting its nose on your boot. The horse flipping you off with its nose even if it stops isn't good. The horse making a good try at a respectful yield even if it doesn't quite stop moving isn't bad. Having an experienced set of eyes watching you really helps you put all the pieces together.

Shadow14
Apr. 18, 2008, 09:44 AM
The last thing I would want to do is pull the horses head around in full flight. Have many of you wiped out later??? I have, alot over the years and not from runaways but from a good working trot or easy lope and even at that pace it is not fun.
I always carry enough bit on the horse to pull him down regardless of what upsets him. I strongly believe in a big bit and soft hands but no nonesence.
Soft hands keeps the horse from ever becomming a head bobber while the big bit is there to reinforce any rebellion.
Regardless of the situation Shadow knows that he can not disobey and will remain calm even if his partner at the time lopes away. He will maintain pace without any rough stuff, a simple word is good enough.
Again I believe in training a horse then letting him do his thing, if it doesn't agree with his training then I set him down and start over
3rd commandment for horses. Put your faith in me, I will not let you down, it is essential to my well being. I believe this.
In 50 years I have never been in a barn where my horse is not the best mannered, best trained and I give them all sorts of freedom to get in trouble.
It takes me 2 years to make a horse working almost every single day and twice a day for the first few months but at the end of this time the horse is set for life. Take the time and train him right

Shadow14
Apr. 18, 2008, 09:55 AM
I have trained/broken 2 horses that were dedicated runaways. These are broke horses that get it in their head to run and their owners are ready to give up and scared stiff of the horse.
I took the biggest cheap western bit I could find, added a high port, welded it on and a good tight curb chain.
I then used my heavy duty 3/4 inch long western reins and a good headstall.
I pull the horse into a run let him really get wond up and then yelled HOOOOOO then with everything I had, sitting back and legs out front tried my damdest to cut that horse in half. He slid to a stop, stood there trembling and I once again asked for a hard run. Repeated the HOOOO and pulling back as hard as I could, again the horse slid and stood trembling.
After that I asked for the 3rd run, sat back, feet out front ans asked for the HOOO. Horse slid to a stop, patted her kneck and walded home.
The differece with the 3 rd stop is I didn't touch the reins, voice only.
The owned then rides softly in the bit for a few days to gain comfidence and then the bit is removed for good.
Both mares remaind broke for life and never again needed anything but a verbal HOOO to get a good stop.
Most think this is cruel but that horse is very powerful and the girls riding both of them are not going to get kiilled because of a stupid horse.
My life is horses, good horses, but I will tolerate no none sense.
Sometimes breaking them hard sticks with them for life while the babied horses never really learn.
I trained at one time for the movies, film companies and there the animals most do their thing the 1st time. Don't we all watch movies and see the perfect trained animals performing whatever. They are not trained by asking please.
Sorry if I offend some but if you have any problem I would be a good guy to have in your corner.:D

Guilherme
Apr. 18, 2008, 10:10 AM
Good on you Shadow14 for having a clear view of the horse and it's problems.

And the good sense to apply a reasonable and effective correction.

Or, put another way, one good correction is worth 10,000 "bad dogs."

G.

carp
Apr. 18, 2008, 10:27 AM
I always carry enough bit on the horse to pull him down regardless of what upsets him. I strongly believe in a big bit and soft hands but no nonesence.
If it works for you, no arguing with success. However, I think it's always good to have more than one tool in your box. The difference between a one rein stop and a honking big bit is that the one rein stop disengages the horse's drive train, so to speak. When you simply haul back on the reins you are applying the brakes without taking the horse out of gear. The horse may stop. The horse may also simply redirect the forward motion into upwards motion: rearing or bucking. Flipping your horse over backwards by hauling on a severe bit is no improvement over flipping the horse sideways by using a one rein stop.
I guess the key is to know your horse and know your situation. My gelding would do fine in a severe bit. He's a bit pig headed, but he's not inclined to rear, and he's got a strong sense of self preservation. As soon as he realized the bit meant business he'd settle down. My mare, on the other hand, gets more ill-behaved in a severe bit. Her brain shuts down as she gets angry and tries to avoid the pain. She does better with a soft bit and disengaging/one rein stop; you just need to nip her meltdowns in the bud before they ever get started.

Auventera Two
Apr. 18, 2008, 10:45 AM
My opinion is there is no such thing as a "hard mouth," only a "hard brain." The horse isn't responding because he doesn't understand what you want, or doesn't have respect. Both problems can be solved through training.

When I got my quarter horse, she had bit sores from somebody using a big ass bit. She was a barrel and working cow horse, turned parade/rodeo horse, turned pack horse/turned Roy Rogers tribute show star, turned royal pain in the ass. She was a grouch from years of bad fitting saddles, she had whip scars on her flanks, horrible feet, she was thin, and generally ready to just kill anybody who looked at her. Here's the photos from that day:

http://www.hphoofcare.com/skinny3.jpg
http://www.hphoofcare.com/skinny2.jpg
http://www.hphoofcare.com/skinny.jpg

The next day after we had her home, I put her in a d-ring snaffle and rode her in a small paddock with no problems. I quickly found out that I had no breaks when cantering in a field. So whenever I trail rode her, I put her in a Kimberwicke and worked a LOT on softening, giving the head and rib cage, and basically just training her how to respond to cues. She was so used to whip and run, get your face reefed off, then do it all over again.

I went to a KK Ultra snaffle which is very very soft, and finally to a Little S hackamore with a padded noseband. Then to a Kincade hack which is basically a sidepull- round leather ring around the nose. No leverage. I even wrapped that in a gel padding and fleece! I did a 16 mile trail ride with her in that bridle, in which we did a lot of galloping across grassy fields with as many as 20 other horses. She was in total control and was a real superstar. No problems. Here is that setup:

http://www.hphoofcare.com/vicblondie.jpg
And my friend riding her:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/kincade.jpg

I can now ride her with a rope around her neck if I want to, or a halter with a leadrope attached. I would never weld up a special harsh bit to put the stops on a horse, but like I said, that's just "me." Glad that what you did worked for you Norval. I don't want to screech the horse on the breaks through man power. I want her to know the cues and respond to them due to the training. Same reason I wouldn't just kick a horse in the sides with sharp spurs to make it move forward, but I would carefully train the horse to respond to subtle cues and pressure.

We initially birthed that horse out on our farm - she was out of my Appendix mare - but we sold her at 3 1/2 years old, or so. When she left here she was a gorgeous little filly, just started riding her lightly. But she sure got "ruined" fast by idiots. When we got her back, about 4 years ago, she was a totally different horse than when she left this farm. So sad.

Yes, I have wiped out 3 times - and none of them from doing a ORS. All 3 were when the horse lost it's footing on either wet grass, or snow.

Edited to add:
I like my horses to eat and drink freely along the trail. They do this much better with no bit in their mouth. To me it is very important that my horses go bitless. Just my personal choice. I put my Arab in a bit for a while when she was protesting nose pressure but since I've bought a new hackamore noseband that is a flat beta strap she LOVES it. No problems at all. That mare has extremely fine tuned breaks and I could stop her from a gallop with a dental floss. I guarantee you a million bucks if anyone ever put a "big bit" in that mare's mouth, she would rear and flip.

Shadow14
Apr. 18, 2008, 12:47 PM
Why do I want my horse to eat along the trail??? I pass through some large corn fields and the stalks are right there in his face and he doesn't touch them. As for drinking he drinks out of alot of the puddles along the way and the bit is not problem. Drink yes, eat no.
If I want to stop and graze him I will slip the pit and tie the neck rope I always carry on the back of the saddle to one hind leg.

Alot of the times I get one chance to fix someone's problem. I don't get days, don't want day's. One ride and it will be corrected.
Road a barn sour horse, an everter with a very successful carrer and mid 20's rider. The horse suddenly went sour and she couldn't correct it.
In despiration she asked me to do it.
Good bit, good spurs and riding crop I hate carrying. I let her have my horse.
Went about 100 yards off the property and the horse reared and spun and broke for home at a run. He got about 20 feet and I set him on his rump, hauled him around, jabbed the spurs , hit with the crop and helled all as one. He leaped forward in the direction we were originally going and at a walk almost immediately. Tried it again in another couple of hundred yards.
Went to try it again after a few miles but he changed his mind and was really good.
I have very gentle hands, gentle Q's, very soft but back them up with authority with either the spur or the bit.
I use to work rental horses sunday mornings. you had a problem I took the horse out and fixed it.. It usually doesn't take long.
I worked dogs for 12 years and dominated all obidience trials where ever I went and put 13 titles on Lance, he was also featured to a week at a sportsman show.
I don't believe in loosing your temper but I do believe in setting a horse or dog straight.
I shoe horses on the side and the owners all give me permission to teach their horses manners while being shod.
If you look at someones horse and envy it's manners, it's training why not follow the advice of that trainer???
Vickey I believe in training, like I said early every day for 2 years, intensive training but at the end I better have a fixed horse.

Auventera Two
Apr. 18, 2008, 12:53 PM
Why do I want my horse to eat along the trail??? I pass through some large corn fields and the stalks are right there in his face and he doesn't touch them. As for drinking he drinks out of alot of the puddles along the way and the bit is not problem. Drink yes, eat no.
If I want to stop and graze him I will slip the pit and tie the neck rope I always carry on the back of the saddle to one hind leg.

I ALWAYS want my horses to eat and drink along the trail. I guess you're the first endurance rider I've ever encountered who says that's a bad thing?? :confused: The mentors I've taken instruction from have all told me it's very important to let the horse eat when she feels she needs to. Obviously there's a difference in grabbing a bite on the run and letting the horse just stop and graze for 3 hours. It's even in the endurance riding books, and rider's manual to encourage the horse to eat and drink along the trail when possible.

Remember that I'm trying to develop a 100 mile horse, and my goal is to be a 100 mile rider. We're years off from that yet, but everything I do with her NOW while we're in LDs will be carried with her forever. If I put a big bit in her mouth and pull her head up every time she goes for a bite of grass, she will learn it's not acceptable to eat along the way, and I don't want that! She is VERY good at grabbing the tops off swamp grass as we trot by it, and I think that's excellent. I would never discourage her from doing that. It keeps the gutt moving and gives the horse energy along the way. From the ride book:

Pay the utmost attention to maintaining hydration and gut motility before worrying about boosting energy. Assuming your horse is fit for the job at hand, a well-hydrated horse with ongoing gut motility will outperform a dehydrated and colicky horse every time, regardless of the amount of “rocket fuel” on board. Plan your day so that your horse can snack his way throughout the ride, rather than exercise nonstop and then eat only while at vet checks. Take the opportunity whenever possible to stop for a few minutes of grazing along the trail or carry a few pounds of hay with you between vet checks. Doing so will help avoid dehydration, maintain good gut motility and thereby maintain energy and performance.

Maybe you can, but I cannot stop and dismount and untack my horse every time I want her to graze for a few minutes. I like to stay in the saddle and let her grab bites along the way, or just stop for a minute or two while she eats, then carry on.

sublimequine
Apr. 18, 2008, 01:18 PM
Why do I want my horse to eat along the trail??? I pass through some large corn fields and the stalks are right there in his face and he doesn't touch them. As for drinking he drinks out of alot of the puddles along the way and the bit is not problem. Drink yes, eat no.
If I want to stop and graze him I will slip the pit and tie the neck rope I always carry on the back of the saddle to one hind leg.

Alot of the times I get one chance to fix someone's problem. I don't get days, don't want day's. One ride and it will be corrected.
Road a barn sour horse, an everter with a very successful carrer and mid 20's rider. The horse suddenly went sour and she couldn't correct it.
In despiration she asked me to do it.
Good bit, good spurs and riding crop I hate carrying. I let her have my horse.
Went about 100 yards off the property and the horse reared and spun and broke for home at a run. He got about 20 feet and I set him on his rump, hauled him around, jabbed the spurs , hit with the crop and helled all as one. He leaped forward in the direction we were originally going and at a walk almost immediately. Tried it again in another couple of hundred yards.
Went to try it again after a few miles but he changed his mind and was really good.
I have very gentle hands, gentle Q's, very soft but back them up with authority with either the spur or the bit.
I use to work rental horses sunday mornings. you had a problem I took the horse out and fixed it.. It usually doesn't take long.
I worked dogs for 12 years and dominated all obidience trials where ever I went and put 13 titles on Lance, he was also featured to a week at a sportsman show.
I don't believe in loosing your temper but I do believe in setting a horse or dog straight.
I shoe horses on the side and the owners all give me permission to teach their horses manners while being shod.
If you look at someones horse and envy it's manners, it's training why not follow the advice of that trainer???
Vickey I believe in training, like I said early every day for 2 years, intensive training but at the end I better have a fixed horse.

A2 is an endurance rider. If you're out on the trail for the entire day or something, having a horse eat is probably a GOOD thing. :)

As for using a large bit and hauling back to fix a runaway, I'm all for making a horse safer and giving it a good 'whoa', but that method wouldn't work on all horses. I can basically guarantee you'd flip my horse right on over if it was tried with her. Then again, she's got a whoa on her, isn't the "runaway" type, and is trained to be light in the face. So that point is moot. :o

I do agree with you though on the bigger bit + softer hands. I actually don't care to ride my mare in a sidepull because for us, I find it lacks finesse and my cues have to be "louder". Put her in the "big hack", which is the typical western mechanical hack, and I can give 100% of my cues with the twitch of a finger. So it's not really a BIT per se, but it goes with the bigger bit + softer hands theory. :lol:

Shadow14
Apr. 18, 2008, 01:23 PM
Vickey I wish I had not house cleaned last year. I through out my score cards, dozens and dozens of trophies and all paperwork related to both horses and dogs. I might still have Lance's passport?
Anyway I only ran 50's , one 60 and one 65 but got straight A's in most things.
My horse in a 50 never had time to eat and grabbing a little snack on the way was more bother then it was worth. Drinking is another thing altogether and both Strider and Shadow know they can suddenly swing off the trail and grab a drink from a puddle but never touch foot.
Every 12 -15 miles in a 50 there is a gate, a vet check where you have 1/2 hour, that is the place for the horse to eat, not on trail. never on trail.
If I have time to let him eat then do it properly , not snatches of food along the way.
The very first ride I was introduced to was in 1989 at Crosshill, I entered my big jumper in the 25 mile run and won it effortlessly and got a Best condition , yes they gave one out for the 25.
Won it the next year too with I believe Titan??? or Echo???
That got me hooked and I sold my big 16.3 jumper and bought my first arab. Never looked back after that.
Vickey this is NOT new to me and I regularly did 2 day 50's nearly every weekend going for breakfast, no record other them my own but every weekend he did a 50 along with another arab and quarterhorse,'
Champ was his calling name, forget his registered name but he is in the record books someone under the top quarterhorse for the year.
Anyway Vickey a 50 is a piece of cake with a well conditioned horse.
I don't let them eat on the trail, yes at the 1/2 hour vet check , water, anytime I come across a water trough or good puddle.
Never had a problem with dehydration, always had good drinkers.

katarine
Apr. 18, 2008, 01:39 PM
Shadow, I don't do endurance but I can totally see your approach making more sense- horses that are surfing the trailside for grasses at a trot aren't looking where they are going- I know that just from my own vacuum of a QH who tries to do this all the time LOL...but to meet A2 in the middle if I stopped to adjust something, etc- I'd totally let them eat.

Guilherme
Apr. 18, 2008, 01:45 PM
We don't ride competitively in endurance, but having a "constant grazer" is a pain in butt.

When we go out we ride 40 min. of each hour, dismount and walk 10 min., then rest and graze 10 min., then do it all over again. You an cover a LOT of ground in a reasonable time doing this. ;)

A horse that is constantly trying to "snack" is a horse that is not paying attention to it's rider.

G.

Auventera Two
Apr. 18, 2008, 01:49 PM
Everyone does things their own way and I think that's perfectly okay. :) Whatever works for you and your horse. Like I said, the mentors I have taken instruction from have all said it is wonderful to encourage eating and drinking on trail, and I follow that thought process. Time will tell how successful my horse and I can be but for right now I'm doing all the things with her that I feel comfortable with.

I disagree that a horse is running all over the trail and not paying attention while grabbing bites. When I'm motoring along in a nice hard trot or canter, the last thing my horse is thinking about is food. But when we slow down to a walk or jog, I want her to grab bites if she wants to. I have no problem with that. Believe me, whenever I lay a leg on, she revvs up and is more than ready to go. She's a go'er. Not a stopper and eater. And she's a very obedient horse. She's not rude and ripping the reins away to stop and eat. But she does know that it's ok to grab bites when we slow our gait and I give her the rein to do so. I've been ponying and hand walking this mare on the trail since she was 10 months old. I did a ton of trail training in those first 3 years before I ever sat on her back. I knew my goals for her from the day I brought her home and everything I've done with her has been in prep for developing a 100 mile horse.

Sithly
Apr. 18, 2008, 02:39 PM
The only problem I came upon is that they turn their heads around all the way to my boot with barely any pressure on the rein at all.. Is this acceptable? They disengage their hindquarters, but I barely have to put pressure on the rein. They are so nosy the go straight for my boot!!!!! I don't know when to release it, because they don't leave any room to go farther!

Is this normal?? Suggestions????

It's not good. It's pretty much the opposite of what you want to teach the horse. In fact, I can't think of a reason to ever pull your horse's head around to your boot (unless maybe you want to adjust your horse's bridle without getting off :lol:). It's a completely useless exercise, at best, and at worst it is actively harmful. (I'm using "you" in the general sense. Not trying to attack you or put you down, OP; I know you didn't do it on purpose.)

Pulling a horse's head around that far does two things. 1) It throws off his equilibrium. 2) It teaches him to disconnect (mentally) his head from his feet. It's sometimes called "rubbernecking," and it's basically an evasion of your rein cues. A horse can and will run away with his nose on your boot.

I really don't know why people recommend that as an exercise.

Anyway, there are several ways to fix it. I'd recommend getting lessons from a good trainer, but in the meantime, I'll try to explain the method I've had the most success with.

Basic horse training philosophy: The horse learns from the release of pressure. In other words, if you put pressure on a horse, they will learn to repeat whatever behavior earns them a release from that pressure. For example, if you pick up your rein and put pressure on your horse and you release it when he lowers his head, he will soon learn to lower his head immediately when he feels the pressure. If you squeeze with your legs until your horse moves forward -- and then you release the pressure -- your horse will learn to move forward from your leg.

Similarly, if you pick up the rein and ask your horse to turn his head -- and you release pressure when his head is on your boot, he will quickly learn to put his head on your boot. If you're not careful, this can become an evasion, and before you know it, he'll go there to "hide" from the bit. Then you have created the most dangerous of all runaways: the type that puts his nose on your boot and runs without any regard for his surroundings.

The best way to fix this habit is to nip it in the bud early on. First you must have an ideal in your mind of where you want the horse's head. This should be between straight ahead and 45 degrees. There is no reason to turn the horse's head greater than 45 degrees off center. It doesn't do anything useful. So visualize your ideal head position before you pick up the rein.

Pick up the rein and ask the horse to turn his head. Release the pressure when he is in your ideal range. If he goes past 45 degrees, pick up the rein again and pull hard. His first response will be to put his nose on your boot. Do not let go. He will be momentarily confused, because last time he put his nose on your boot, it earned him a release of pressure and he remembers that. Well, this time you are changing the rules. You will keep the pressure on the horse until you feel him want to pull his head away. THEN you will release. It may be a very subtle push against your hand, but be attuned and make sure you release when the horse tries to straighten out. Reward even the littlest try at first.

You are teaching the horse that he can no longer hide from the bit by turning his head too far. By increasing the pressure when he's too far around, you will make him want to keep his head straighter.

It may seem counterintuitive to make your horse pull on you, but in fact you are correcting an evasion. Many people confuse evasion with lightness. A light horse is one who does what you ask at the smallest cue, not one that bends his neck around whenever you touch the reins.

I am a big believer in NH, but IMO, that is one place where many trainers go wrong. Too many of them emphasize a false lightness without ever going more in-depth about what exactly makes a horse light.



It's not a bad thing to teach; it is a bad thing to rely upon.

IMO the "one rein stop" is just another "club in the bag." A good trail horse should stop on one, two, three, four, or no reins.

Good luck with your training.

G.

Exactly.

Shadow14
Apr. 18, 2008, 05:10 PM
I road for years in side pulls then found a light snaffle was ligher for him to carry and didn't rub his nose. I don't need a bit or anything, even road in a holla hoop , a small one but it was uncomfortable.
The bits I used for breaking a runaway is not the bit I would use for daily riding. It is just a breaking bit for a runaway.
I do ride in a light little copper western bit with very short shanks but a curb chain. I want the shanks short incase he wipes out and his face goes into the ground. I once broke a snaffle when the horse wiped out.
I have never yet encountered a horse that I couldn't bend to my ways and this summer it is 50 years that I have been riding.
As for being out all day and incouraging the horse to nibble along the way I still say that is garbage. If you are running a race you get 1/2 hour breaks every 12-15 miles. Feed the horse there. If you are out hacking every few hours stop and graze the horse but for your own comfort don't let it become an annoying habit.
I feel safe in saying there probably isn't a rider on this forum that spends more time in the saddle them me. I ride 5 days a week and sometimes all 7 all winter and summer. Weather doesn't stop me, cold encourages me and rain is just mother natures way of cooling him off.
How many here can say they did a 2 day 50 almost every weekend??? I can. Breakfast Saturday was at the Red Barn, 25 miles round trip every Saturday. Sunday was at the burger king, opposite direction but again 25 miles away round trip every Sunday. Icecream Tuesday and Thursday, 12 miles round trip. Since it was only 6 miles one way lets run, tie the horses, eat our cones and lope home.
No I certianly don't need lessons on how to take care of a horse out all day.
I was grazing shadow in a one legged ankle cuff with a rope on it today getting ready for ALL DAY rides. Well I lied about that but long rides and 20 miles is not considered out of the norm.









A2 is an endurance rider. If you're out on the trail for the entire day or something, having a horse eat is probably a GOOD thing. :)

As for using a large bit and hauling back to fix a runaway, I'm all for making a horse safer and giving it a good 'whoa', but that method wouldn't work on all horses. I can basically guarantee you'd flip my horse right on over if it was tried with her. Then again, she's got a whoa on her, isn't the "runaway" type, and is trained to be light in the face. So that point is moot. :o

I do agree with you though on the bigger bit + softer hands. I actually don't care to ride my mare in a sidepull because for us, I find it lacks finesse and my cues have to be "louder". Put her in the "big hack", which is the typical western mechanical hack, and I can give 100% of my cues with the twitch of a finger. So it's not really a BIT per se, but it goes with the bigger bit + softer hands theory. :lol:

Shadow14
Apr. 18, 2008, 05:39 PM
Put me down for another one who doesn't recommend rubber necking your horse to pull him down from a runaway. He is liable to trip and send one or both of you to your death.
As for constantly hauling back with a big agressive bit?? if you need to do that you have not done it right. In 2 tries I want to hurt the horse enough that by the 3rd try he is locking up all by himself and you don't touch the reins. Put the fear in him and he will not run again.

This is very old, very old but the arabs SPURRED A HORSE.. The procedure was for older well trained war horses. After the horse was trained they had a special set of spurs that were actually razors. They cut the horse with a certain pattern and then rubbed salt or gun powder in the wounds to make them hurt extremely bad. They also left scares, tatoos for our tenagers but these marked the horse as trained.
From then on that war horse would not fail to give his all, or death , but the fear was in him and he would run until he dropped without being forced.
While I certainly don't condon that I do condon teaching a horse to stop, one that is a run away, but teach him to stop in 2 hard lessons that leave him in fear of ever running away agian.
Remember these are not my horses and horses that I only ride once to break a habbit.

Shadow14
Apr. 18, 2008, 05:44 PM
Alot of my normal runs are 3 hours and I do not consider stopping in that time to graze. Water and Pee are the only breaks that the horse can ask for and he tells me if he spots water he wants. Any other reason I will not let him. I don't feel in 3 hours of steady work he needs a time out, not on my time anyway.
A well conditioned horse travelling at a good working trot can keep it up almost indefinitely, certainly longer then most people ride.
At the end of a good run if your horse is still interested in food he is doing ok. When they stand, head down and food doesn't interest them you have ovedone it.
Again I certainly don't agree with nibbling along the trail, it is annoying and the small amounts he gets doesn't help. Now drinking is entirely different.
I will stop in the middle of the stream and let him play in the water with his mouth and cool his legs. I also carry a cut off water jug and scoop water up out of the river and run it over his neck and shoulders.

Shadow14
Apr. 18, 2008, 06:00 PM
Looking back over the horses in my past and nearly every one of them was totally unbroken when I got them. I don't buy 3 year olds, I take 4-6 and not even halter broken. One never had his feet touched, didn't know what a brush was, apples, carrots forget it.
All and I mean all broke quick, a few days at most and within a short time were road running.
Shadow my newest guy was 4, off a feed lot, not halter broken very well but never road, tied , nothing.
I rode him within 15 minutes of his arrival. The owner held him while I saddled him and climbed aboard. He was a bucker, I bit alot of dirt but he got broke and the ones that are not babied all their lives, broke quick and sometimes a little hard stay broke, they know manner. Shadow had a good neck rope around his neck , through the halter and was tied to something he couldn;t move. He was broke to tie then and there.
I have been at him for about 14 months now, 2500 plus miles and countless hours and I consider him well broke by most peoples standards. He is handy and there is almost nothing I am afraid to try on him.
Leading a horse around from a baby on up can actually get you in more trouble. The horse fails to recognize you as the boss, the leader, the guy you don't cross. My horses don't make that mistake.
For those that don't know Shadow this is him with his severe west bit. It is really nothing but it got his attention once broke.
http://i27.tinypic.com/2zfuyq0.jpg

sublimequine
Apr. 18, 2008, 06:13 PM
As for being out all day and incouraging the horse to nibble along the way I still say that is garbage. If you are running a race you get 1/2 hour breaks every 12-15 miles. Feed the horse there. If you are out hacking every few hours stop and graze the horse but for your own comfort don't let it become an annoying habit.


That's your opinion, not fact. Different folks do things differently, that's the beauty of the horse community. :yes:


I feel safe in saying there probably isn't a rider on this forum that spends more time in the saddle them me. I ride 5 days a week and sometimes all 7 all winter and summer. Weather doesn't stop me, cold encourages me and rain is just mother natures way of cooling him off.
How many here can say they did a 2 day 50 almost every weekend??? I can. Breakfast Saturday was at the Red Barn, 25 miles round trip every Saturday. Sunday was at the burger king, opposite direction but again 25 miles away round trip every Sunday. Icecream Tuesday and Thursday, 12 miles round trip. Since it was only 6 miles one way lets run, tie the horses, eat our cones and lope home.

Wow, arrogant much? Not all of us are endurance riders here. I'm a trail rider, I don't do "2 days" and such, so it makes no difference to me how long you ride. :confused:


No I certianly don't need lessons on how to take care of a horse out all day.
I was grazing shadow in a one legged ankle cuff with a rope on it today getting ready for ALL DAY rides. Well I lied about that but long rides and 20 miles is not considered out of the norm.

And who said you need lessons? I missed that part.

Yeesh, it's the folks on this subforum that are supposed to be the nice and easygoing type! What's with the "my way or the highway" vibe I'm getting up in here?! :eek:

katarine
Apr. 18, 2008, 06:53 PM
Sublime, I think the part that got Shadow's back up was advising her/him? that A2 is an endurance rider. You're telling Shadow, a poster with 8 million more miles on them, that A2 might know more or 'know what she's talking about' since A2 is an endurance rider. I am guessing A2 and her maresie have about a total of 150 miles of actual competition under their saddle. One of their saddles. that is ;)

sublimequine
Apr. 18, 2008, 07:03 PM
Sublime, I think the part that got Shadow's back up was advising her/him? that A2 is an endurance rider. You're telling Shadow, a poster with 8 million more miles on them, that A2 might know more or 'know what she's talking about' since A2 is an endurance rider. I am guessing A2 and her maresie have about a total of 150 miles of actual competition under their saddle. One of their saddles. that is ;)

I don't know Shadow. I know A2. I wasn't aware what kind of riding he did. How someone can take offense to that is beyond me. :confused:

Auventera Two
Apr. 18, 2008, 08:14 PM
Just relax guys. Norval is my bud. :) He's a great guy, very nice man. Only know him from the forums, but still, he's a nice guy. Sublime - katarine hates me and goes out of her way to throw rocks when she can. I just ignore it. :cool: Norval on the other hand never attacks people or says hurtful things. He's just set in his ways from years and years of riding. He knows that what he does works, and he shares that info with the forums. I think it's a great thing. His posts sometimes seem a certain way but under it, he's really nice and helpful.

I share what I do and if people do things differently, that's ok too. The trail and endurance community is by FAR the kindest, most generous, and helpful group I know. Lets try to keep these boards this way, please?

katarine
Apr. 18, 2008, 10:07 PM
correction- I don't hate you. I don't care for how quickly you deem yourself the resident expert on things, a trend of yours on anything you point yourself at. Hate isn't the right word, easily annoyed by you, yes. Hate, nope.

sublimequine
Apr. 18, 2008, 10:11 PM
Just relax guys. Norval is my bud. :) He's a great guy, very nice man. Only know him from the forums, but still, he's a nice guy. Sublime - katarine hates me and goes out of her way to throw rocks when she can. I just ignore it. :cool: Norval on the other hand never attacks people or says hurtful things. He's just set in his ways from years and years of riding. He knows that what he does works, and he shares that info with the forums. I think it's a great thing. His posts sometimes seem a certain way but under it, he's really nice and helpful.

I share what I do and if people do things differently, that's ok too. The trail and endurance community is by FAR the kindest, most generous, and helpful group I know. Lets try to keep these boards this way, please?

Perhaps I just need to get to know him better. I apologize if I misread or misconstrued his posts. And you're right, if I love the way this board is, I need to help keep it that way! :lol:

Shadow14
Apr. 18, 2008, 10:46 PM
Thank you Vickey for the kind words and sorry guys to talking at you and not with you. I am older, been around a long time and figure I have this stuff down. I don't look at riding distance as that tuff and have been doing long runs most of my life.
Anyway I know there are different ways to do things and my way is just one of many.
I teach so sometimes I forget to listen. Again sorry.
Another gorgous day tomorrow so lets all take advantage of it and get out there with our favorite friend.
Have a good one tomorrow
Norval

sublimequine
Apr. 18, 2008, 10:58 PM
Thank you Vickey for the kind words and sorry guys to talking at you and not with you. I am older, been around a long time and figure I have this stuff down. I don't look at riding distance as that tuff and have been doing long runs most of my life.
Anyway I know there are different ways to do things and my way is just one of many.
I teach so sometimes I forget to listen. Again sorry.
Another gorgous day tomorrow so lets all take advantage of it and get out there with our favorite friend.
Have a good one tomorrow
Norval

You too! Although it's supposed to storm here tomorrow... so I might not get to ride at ALL. Sigh. :(

Auventera Two
Apr. 18, 2008, 11:18 PM
You too! Although it's supposed to storm here tomorrow... so I might not get to ride at ALL. Sigh. :(

Didn't you have a freakin earthquake last night?! Yikes, I heard that on the news today! :eek: 5.2. Did you feel it?

sublimequine
Apr. 18, 2008, 11:23 PM
Didn't you have a freakin earthquake last night?! Yikes, I heard that on the news today! :eek: 5.2. Did you feel it?

I woke up to my bed shaking this morning. :eek:

RPLarkLuvr
Apr. 19, 2008, 11:55 AM
I agree with everyone else. TEACH THE HORSE FIRST before you use it. It can come in handy but may not always be the best thing to use. Just depends on the situation.

MSP
Apr. 21, 2008, 04:56 PM
Well! I like the ORS. Yes, you need to know how to do it and your horse needs to know how to do it and you need to know when to do it. I too disengage the hind end not just yank the horses head around. I also give the horse ample opportunity to stop by asking first with my seat, whoa, heels and then reins. If she is is still charging off I use one rein pull release and if that doesn't stop her she gets the full ORS. It has never failed me in over 30 years of riding.

carp
Apr. 21, 2008, 06:35 PM
I got a chance to think more deeply on one rein stops over the weekend. I needed one on a trail ride. We had gotten to the far end of the loop and started heading back home. My horse tried an opportunistic spook and bolt, setting off another greener horse. We now had two horses trying to bolt for home and feeding off each other. First my horse rocked back on his haunches and launched himself forward. Then he gathered himself up for a second stride. By this point I had already taken in the left rein. Instead of launching himself forward and increasing speed on the second stride, he launched himself into a spin away from the greenie because I had his head turned. We went 360 and ended up pointed into a fir tree. I let the pressure off at that point because he didn't seem likely to go anywhere with his face stuck into a mass of prickles. :winkgrin: The other rider meanwhile spun her horse to the right, away from my horse, and came to a stop facing away from home. The horses settled down when they realized the race had been called off, and we continued home sedately.

Auventera Two
Apr. 22, 2008, 09:40 AM
carp - that story reminds me of what we used to do in lessons when I was a kid. We would turn the lesson horse sharply right into the wall to get them stopped. Or drive them into a corner. I took jumper lessons and there were a few lesson horses who really took advantage of the kids. I suppose they weren't really dangerous, but it would shake you up to be on a cantering horse that REFUSED to stop cantering and flinging his head around like a fool.

The instructor had us get on one rein and pull their head into the wall. That would shut them down quick.

There was one advanced lesson horse who was a real jerk. The advanced students rode him. That beast would jump a fence and then buck like a fool. So I remember watching lessons where the instructor had the person jump a fence then immediately drive the horse into the wall or the corner as punishment for the bucking. A couple times of that and he got the message but a couple weeks later he'd be right back at it again.