Little Cliff rescued from slaughter

[Larksmom]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/news/printable.aspx

[Larksmom]

I tried twice to transfer this story, but it is there. If someone more talented than I can find it on title page of Thoroughbred Times today? thanks

[Seal Harbor]

Let us try this link

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2008/April/15/Little-Cliff-rescued-from-slaughter.aspx

[DickHertz]

I hope "La Buzz Stable" and Roman Preciado are proud their name is associated with people who don't care about their horses.

[caffeinated]

you know, I'd been reading about this earlier (and followed a bit when it was all "going down") and only just realized I saw this guy in the Sir Barton.

I even have a picture (http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL914/489204/3030554/148837614.jpg), because I thought he was so gorgeous.

[Glimmerglass]

I remember him too! The upside is that he has been saved.

Such a shame that a horse with connections to Nick and Kim Zito, who have been very strong advocates for responsibility would end up there.

They've both worked hard to find post racing careers for horses - example with Straight Gin now doing point to point - and putting up their own money to give back to those horses.

[ravenclaw]

From the article:

"Although Little Cliff had changed owners four times throughout his life before being rescued, one thing that followed him from Kentucky to New York to Florida to Pennsylvania were his Jockey Club papers, papers that Kim Zito had affixed with a white sticker that says, “If this horse needs a home when he retires, please call.”"


I guess the creeps who owned him didn't think he was worth a phone call. :(
I hope there's a special place in hell for people like this.

[VirginiaBred]

I hope "La Buzz Stable" and Roman Preciado are proud their name is associated with people who don't care about their horses.

So, are one of these the ones that actually sent him there? :no:

[Larksmom]

What I got from the article is that BECAUSE of the sticker, eventually SOMEONE had the sense to contact the Zitos. So it has a good ending. so, alls well that ends well...

[Marli]

For clarification purposes:

No, the horses papers were not with him so it's unclear if the trainer ever knew/saw the sticker was attached (though it's been reported he's the type of trainer that could give a rats patootie about his horses/this wasn't the first). He was picked up off the backside and toted off (by a dealer) to the direct to slaughter pen, and that's where Christy (AC4H) spotted him.

He was identified by his tattoo by me, and you can bet it was done so to be perfectly clear the horse is who he is (we would never want to in-correctly id a horse/I'm a stickler about it!). Tattoo was clear and all his markings (white/whorls/swirls) matched- 100% ID on this horse.

As soon as we had his ID- we began to backtrack, which really isn't that difficult to do. The Zito's were horrified and immediately stepped up along with LaPenta, another former connection. He will be traveling down to KY and will retire with the Zito's. He's presently recovering from Strangles and doing well. ;) Diana (mentioned in the story) and I volunteer our time and tend to the TB's for Christy/AC4H. We also offer our assistance to other rescues as well when it comes to TB's.

[SteeleRdr]

What a great ending!

Makes me even more of a fan of Nick and Kim.

[rigoletto]

While we don't know if Preciado looked at Little Cliff's papers, we do know that he signed them out the day that the backstretch buyer picked the horse up at Philadelphia Park. We made lots of phone calls to find out exactly when Cliff left the track and with whom.

Kim, Nick and Bob LaPenta have been wonderful to work with and really want this story to be spread far and wide. It is their hope, and ours, that this will help raise awareness of just how vigilant people must be in keeping track of horses they want to protect when the horses change hands. When horses I want to take in when they are finished racing are claimed or sold, I call the new trainers or owners every month or so to remind them that the horse is on my radar screen and that I will offer it a home or help place it, no matter what shape it is in. No questions asked. I just want to make sure that the horse is safe. It has worked, except with horses that ended up with Dale Baird. They all went to slaughter. But for almost every other horse, I was able to provide a safety net of one sort or another.

Thankfully, Little Cliff is safe and will always be cared for now. The shock and sadness in Kim Zito's voice the day I called her almost made me cry. Then she was angry that Ramon Preciado didn't care enough to pick up the phone and try to find the horse a better place to go than the direct to slaughter pen. Even if he didn't see the sticker, there's no excuse for not trying. I guess he wanted to money from the dealer more than he wanted to protect the horse. He's apparently one of this guy's steady customer's. The dealer spilled his guts.

[VirginiaBred]

Wow.

:(

[Glimmerglass]

While we don't know if Preciado looked at Little Cliff's papers ....

I have to be dead honest this is a well known fact: with ANY horse Nick Zito once trained who has fallen to that point where the horse's next destination is for slaughter, you can call him and the horse will be acquired and properly retired. Period. (The same goes for any Marylou Whitney bred/owned horse)

Little Cliff is a well known name and I don't care how many drinks someone could have - you'd link that horse back to Nick just as you would The Cliffs Edge (http://www.horsehats.com/TheCliffsEdge.html). So I cut the last guy in the line zero slack for not doing the right thing.

I'm not saying this horse was more deserving of likely a dozen other horses [at the same sale] who just unfortunately were not at one time trained by Nick Zito, but rather just what if devoted people weren't there to catch him? Since the time the Zitos had any control in his life he was guaranteed a proper retirement. That should've been respected.

I only wish some part of the racing organizations could view this as an infraction and fine or ban said person from racing. Maybe then the bottom feeders would be put on notice.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I only wish some part of the racing organizations could view this as an infraction and fine or ban said person from racing. Maybe then the bottom feeders would be put on notice.

would be nice. Glad this story had a happy ending.

I must say...Little Cliff is a good looking athlete...even if he didn't have a retirement spot already for him, there is absolutely no reason a horse with that sort of class should have ended up in the kill pen. He would have been pretty easy to rehome....not that any horse belongs in the kill pen.

[rigoletto]

I have to be dead honest this is a well known fact: with ANY horse Nick Zito once trained who has fallen to that point where the horse's next destination is for slaughter, you can call him and the horse will be acquired and properly retired. Period.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? As I've said before, many trainers at the lower level (bottom feeders is the perfect term for them) don't give a damn about the horses when they're finished with them. They'd rather have the couple hundred bucks the dealers give them than get the horse a home. The guy who did this should be penalized in some way but he won't. Makes me nuts.

There's a guy at Charlestown, one of the top trainers - who also breeds and is on the board of the WV Thoroughbred Breeders Association who has a dealer who comes to his barn on a regular basis. Pays him top dollar for his cast offs. When he was confronted about a horse we pulled from the direct to slaughter pen a few months back (drop dead gorgeous, 100% sound mare) he said that it was easier to let the backstretch buyer make the horses disappear than to try to find them homes. He also mentioned the $275 he is paid for each horse. Wonder if he reports the income? He made a big fuss because the mare that was "supposed to be dead" was alive and people were asking questions. Nice.

Little Cliff's story will hopefully serve as an eyeopener for a lot of people in the industry. Maybe they'll sit up and pay closer attention. I know that those of us who were involved in the rescue are just happy that this lovely horse is alive. I'm also left wondering who we missed. Who was left standing in that kill pen when we took Little Cliff out? And who is left behind every other time we manage to rescue a few?

[Texarkana]

It is truly disgusting and frustrating when these type of stories surface. I'm glad Little Cliff is safe and sound.

Situations like this one make me want to campaign for mandatory micro-chipping upon registration more and more. I still find micro-chipping a bit creepy... But if every horse who gets off the truck at a kill pen or slaughterhouse could pass under a scanner, we could easily track every TB who ends up there.

Then, some sort of disciplinary action would be feasible if so desired by the racing jurisdictions. Even if they just published the data annually, hopefully the public stigma would be enough to dissuade the bottom feeders from taking the easy way out.

Of course, the real asshats would probably just dig the micro-chips out beforehand, so who am I kidding...

[miss_critic]

This is completley disturbing, aside from the obvious, that there was that sticker on the papers.

[DickHertz]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? As I've said before, many trainers at the lower level (bottom feeders is the perfect term for them) don't give a damn about the horses when they're finished with them. They'd rather have the couple hundred bucks the dealers give them than get the horse a home.

Be careful about your characterization. Most of the people I know at Penn National are strong advocates of saving horses from slaughter. Your view is a bit ethnocentric and it's a little bit of a broad generalization. After all, Philadelphia Park
isn't exactly a bottom feeder track. Most trainers there get $50 a day and do OK. Your characterization that just because you are at a cheap track means you are a butcher just isn't fair.

[SEPowell]

Be careful about your characterization. Most of the people I know at Penn National are strong advocates of saving horses from slaughter. Your view is a bit ethnocentric and it's a little bit of a broad generalization. After all, Philadelphia Park
isn't exactly a bottom feeder track. Most trainers there get $50 a day and do OK. Your characterization that just because you are at a cheap track means you are a butcher just isn't fair.

I agree DickHertz. While I've seen many nice horses sell for slaughter, I've also seen trainers from Penn Nat work weeks in advance to meet individuals at New Holland so they can sell their horses to safe homes. I've also seen dealers work the crowd at NH to get horses sold to private owners, paying to get them in NH but not sending them through the ring. And I've seen the same dealers hold injured tbs on their trailers and make arrangements with one rescue or another to buy those horses because if they're sent through the ring, they have no chance of making it to a private home. Keeping things positive has paid off for the horses, in my opinion, and is the best way to move forward. It ceretainly beats having horses sold for slaughter in the parking lot or taken straight to Mel's stable to avoid negative publicity.

[Beezer]

Well, one thing's for certain: Hearing this about the Zitos has made me a lifelong fan. :yes:

Thanks to all who made Little Cliff's ending a happy one.

[SmallHerd]

Well, one thing's for certain: Hearing this about the Zitos has made me a lifelong fan. :yes:

Thanks to all who made Little Cliff's ending a happy one.

Me too!

[SleepyFox]

Okay, I'm going to put my flamesuit on again.

I'm very glad Little Cliff was saved and everyone involved in the process did a great job.

However, I think some people are being a little harsh. First off, I am in the racing business and had no idea Zito would take back any horse that was in trouble. Do they actually have to be on the way to auction or will he take back one you just don't want anymore? Also, who really looks at foal papers? You claim a horse and they get transferred to your file - you never see them. I don't find it strange at all that nobody paid attention to the papers.

Second, trainers like Zito who only take the very cream of the crop are very rare. Most trainers have some low end horses - I would not classify them as bottom feeders. Not at all. On BBs like this, people seem to think that all low level claimers are one step away from the slaughterhouse and it's just not reality. And, to be honest, I've seen more callous treatment of cast-off horses from the big, highly respected outfits than I have from the "bottom feeders."

Third, in my experience (and I do not know about the Philly area), the dealers that pick up horses on the backside are like any other dealer - they weed through the horses. Just because a horse is picked up off the backside, doesn't mean it's going to slaughter.

There are probably some trainers and owners to whom the money from the dealer is the key motivating factor. But, for most people, it's the fact that it is expensive - really expensive - to keep a horse at the track and layup farms are just as bad. Plus, stall space is always at a premium. Trainers and owners make money to pay the bills and feed the rest of the stable by filling stalls with viable horses. THAT is what motivates people to move horses out quickly. It bothers me when I see people as a group being painted in broad strokes as completely uncaring. I know trainers and owners who ship horses off, but I don't know any that wouldn't rather see them go to a good home. But, you know what? Finding a good home - especially for a hurt horse - isn't that easy. It seems easy when it's a high profile horse or the owner threatens to send it to slaughter b/c then people rally around it. But, in the average situation, it's not so easy.

I'm not condoning what happened to Little Cliff - not at all. And, I take care of my own and have several rescues on the feed bill, too. I'm just pointing out that the real bread and butter side of racing is different than it is frequently portrayed in places like this BB.

[rigoletto]

Be careful about your characterization. Most of the people I know at Penn National are strong advocates of saving horses from slaughter. Your view is a bit ethnocentric and it's a little bit of a broad generalization. After all, Philadelphia Park
isn't exactly a bottom feeder track. Most trainers there get $50 a day and do OK. Your characterization that just because you are at a cheap track means you are a butcher just isn't fair.



You're making a lot of assumptions. I said many, not all, and I was not picking out Philadelphia Park. I've worked in the Thoroughbred industry for 15 years and in rescue for almost 10. My husband was a trainer and trained quite a few claimers. And ethnocentric? I don't think so. I guess it depends which part of the country you're in.

I was basing my comments on the pps of the hundreds (maybe thousands) of horses I've reviewed that have gone through auction rings in the years that I've been keeping track, the level they were competing at and where they ended up. That's all.

[equit8]

If you are worried were you're horse is going when they say he got a "good home" why not have him put to sleep where he can die with dignity and you don't have to worry where he is.

[rigoletto]

I agree whole heartedly. I'd rather know that my horse was buried on my property or cremated than always wonder where he was or if he'd been sent to slaughter. If you can't be responsible enough to take care of your horses, then don't have them.

And to the person who sent me the private messages condoning slaughter - there is never a good reason to send a horse to slaughter. If the horse has an issue, put it down.

[Glimmerglass]

An example regarding Nick Zito and his work with horses - Apr 16, 2007 "Horses in need get second chance at new centre" (http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2007/04/110.shtml)

Excerpt

Horses of all breeds in Kentucky who are currently in life-threatening situations will receive the gift of a second chance at the Kentucky Equine Humane Center (KyEHC), officially opens its doors today.

KyEHC is a first-of-its-kind facility, established with the specific goal of providing owners with a humane option when they need to give up their horses. The Center is located on a tranquil, 50-acre horse farm just outside of Lexington, Kentucky, which will be a safe refuge for at-risk horses of all breeds and disciplines. No horse in a precarious situation will ever be turned away. Adoptable horses will be placed in loving homes. Horses which are unadoptable due to chronic pain or permanent, crippling injuries will be humanely euthanized.

Kentucky Derby-winning trainer, Nick Zito (Strike The Gold and Go For Gin) and his wife Kim, are on the KyEHC board of advisors.

According to Nick, "Regardless of pedigree or performance, all horses have to be treated the same. Consequently, we all have the same responsibilities to meet those needs, whether we are working with Kentucky Derby winners or horses that are just horses. Again, they have to be treated the same."

I'm not going to paint everyone with the same brush but Nick has been a trainer who has *always* made remarks about horses trying their best, how first and foremost is them coming back safe in a race, and how he sees joy in a horse who might run 4th in a race but tried the whole time. Nobody is a saint in the business. Yet I do think Nick and his wife Kim and Nick's clients have worked consistently in trying to make it better for those horses he's worked with.

As I cited before one of Nick's good friend and client, Marylou Whitney, had a story not unlike Little Cliff not too many years ago: TB Times 9/2004 "Half brother to Birdstone and Bird Town rescued from slaughter" (http://www.midatlantichorserescue.org/Thoroughbred%20Times%20Today's%20News.htm)

"Thank God for these small organizations that are saving lives," Hendrickson said on Wednesday while praising Deibel’s efforts. "Marylou and I both believe that we need to be responsible not just for their births and racing careers but also for their retirements.

"It did not matter that he was a half brother to Bird Town and Birdstone, other than it made for a more salacious story," he added. "This was a horse we bred and we loved. We love all our horses."

[ravenclaw]

Adena Springs Farm has taken responsibility for their horses. They started an in-house program to start re-training their unsuccessful runners and find them new homes:

http://www.adenaretirement.com/

Hats off to them. I hope more farms will start doing something like this.

[Texarkana]

If you are worried were you're horse is going when they say he got a "good home" why not have him put to sleep where he can die with dignity and you don't have to worry where he is.

While I agree with this statement for horses that will never come sound, surely this is not a solution for large racing operations to ensure safety of their horses.

A) It's not practical.

B) Do you really think the public image would be any better if hundreds or thousands of racehorses were "humanely euthanized" because their connections didn't have the time or resourses to guarantee them a good home? I mean, look how people react to animal shelters that euthanize...

[summerhorse]

While I agree with this statement for horses that will never come sound, surely this is not a solution for large racing operations to ensure safety of their horses.

A) It's not practical.

B) Do you really think the public image would be any better if hundreds or thousands of racehorses were "humanely euthanized" because their connections didn't have the time or resourses to guarantee them a good home? I mean, look how people react to animal shelters that euthanize...


Many people already have their horses euthanized, healthy or injured. It IS a practical solution.

About 7-10% of slaughter bound horses are TBs (includes ALL TBs, racers, ex breeding stock, culls from farms, etc.) So it would be more like 7,000-10,000 euthanized. And yes that is still too many BUT if those very injured, unsound, dangerous horses, culls (usually crooked foals and yearlings), old broodmares and stallions were put down on the farm as they should be instead of being sent to a terrible death for $250 or so I doubt many would object too much. Unless they were willing to take on some pasture pets not much they could really object to. There are too many horses and not enough homes, some will HAVE to be euthanized. It is unfortunate that some of those will be animals that have earned a nice retirement from their owners for all the money they made them but it is still better than slaughter or being sold to a bad home.

The problem is when healthy horses and horses with minor injuries are sent straight to kill without even giving anybody a chance to take them. The need for that $200-300 taking precedence over an animal's life in some cases and other cases sheer laziness or lack of caring to even ATTEMPT to contact a breeder, former owner or rescue or advertise them for sale. There are a lot of trainers/owners out there who simply do not care and do not want to be bothered to make the effort to make even ONE phone call much less answer several from potential buyers. It is a black mark on all of racing that these people are allowed to dispose of their horses this way. At least give them a CHANCE at a home.

[sporthorsefilly]

Bravo for those who really care about the horses, people like Zito and Adena Springs.

Of course if they would breed less than 50,000 per year and limit stallions to no more than 40 mares per year, it might just make a real difference!

[summerhorse]

The current foal crop each year is around 35,000 (it varies by year of course). There IS a huge problem with people breeding too many cheap horses. While even the well bred horses produce duds what is the point of breeding bad horses to bad horses and expecting a miracle? It just doesn't happen very often. For every miracle there are thousands of duds that should never have been bred in the first place.

[Kenike]

Add me to the list of those who is a lifetime fan of the Zito's!! Good for them (and the other folks mentioned) for doing the RIGHT thing!!

Bravo Zulu!!

[rigoletto]

[QUOTE=

B) Do you really think the public image would be any better if hundreds or thousands of racehorses were "humanely euthanized" because their connections didn't have the time or resourses to guarantee them a good home? I mean, look how people react to animal shelters that euthanize...[/QUOTE]


The thing to focus on is what is best for the horses, not what the public would think. I think slaughter is a bigger PR nightmare than any sort of humane euthanasia. If you've ever been to an auction and seen what these horses go through, especially a horse straight off the track that hasn't been turned out with other horses for a very long time and is suddenly pack into a small pen with a lot of horses, it is confusing, stressful and cruel. And that's before they even go through the sales ring. If people had to actually be responsible for the horses they bred and owned maybe they'd breed fewer and there wouldn't be as big a problem. I do know that if I had no options for my horses other than auction or euthanasia, I'd put them down.

[Kenike]

The thing to focus on is what is best for the horses, not what the public would think. I think slaughter is a bigger PR nightmare than any sort of humane euthanasia. If you've ever been to an auction and seen what these horses go through, (snip)

Along with that, if you've ever been to a slaughterhouse (equine). While the processing is professional and clean, it is shocking to see them walk so calmly to a certain point, then just panic when they smell, followed by watch what is going on. It's definitely a stressful, frightening thing for them.

[Centuree]

The current foal crop each year is around 35,000 (it varies by year of course). There IS a huge problem with people breeding too many cheap horses. While even the well bred horses produce duds what is the point of breeding bad horses to bad horses and expecting a miracle? It just doesn't happen very often. For every miracle there are thousands of duds that should never have been bred in the first place.

I completely agree, this is what it all comes down to, irresponsible breeding :mad: makes me incredibly mad that people are SO careless. I guess this is what happens though when people gamble with living animals, doesn't matter so much when its poker or roulette.

[SEPowell]

I completely agree, this is what it all comes down to, irresponsible breeding :mad: makes me incredibly mad that people are SO careless. I guess this is what happens though when people gamble with living animals, doesn't matter so much when its poker or roulette.

Although the higher profile racing horses who are pulled from slaughter receive lots of recognition, broodmares don't fare well at all. I can't tell you the number of broodmares I've seen sold for slaughter at New Holland and while some of those are beauties and have good racing racords of their own, many of them should have never been bred for any discipline. This is made worse by the fact that it's very expensive for rescues to take broodmares because they've been out of riding commission for so long that extensive retraining is required, and while all that training is going on other tbs are being sent to slaughter. In the long run more tbs can be saved from slaughter if those chosen are the horses who can be placed most quickly.

It's only $60 to euthanize a horse at NH and nothing else is involved. I'll never understand why breeders don't take that route.

On the other hand I met a man yesterday who doesn't send any of his horses to slaughter or rescues. He finds homes for them on his own. And like all owner/trainer/breeders wrapped up in one, he's a very busy guy... and he made it on his own.

[Marli]

Summerhorse-

I can't tell you how strongly I agree with you in regards to some of the more local/regionalized breeders just breeding one lousy horse to another (mediocre horses/lacking performance), producing another life all in the hopes that they're going to get a runner that's going to win the jackpot for them. For some of them it's a 'numbers' game- and when these youngsters hit the track, do nothing but cost them money- they're toted off to the sales. It's always disheartening when we pull a horse (I work closely with Rigoletto/we're rescue colleagues), see the pedigree/race record- see who the breeder is as we always make the attempt to call them to see if there's anything they'd like to do to take RESPONSIBLITY for that life, and they could give a crap less (to those sensitive to broad generalizations, in fairness- there are many that do care).

It's so frustrating as all one would like to do is scream to them 'they cared when they chose that breeding!' - when they made the decision to breed and bring another life into this world. It's the breeder that decided to mate the stallion to the mare- to produce another life.

To me (as an individual that works to save ottbs), the most irritating aspect is confronting those breeders that play the 'numbers game'.

For anyone interested- we're preparing to save a few ottbs Monday (New Holland). AC4H is a federally recognized 501 (c) (3) non profit-

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ac4htbdivision/messages?msg=40.1

[Iron Horse Farm]

Well, one thing's for certain: Hearing this about the Zitos has made me a lifelong fan. :yes:

Thanks to all who made Little Cliff's ending a happy one.

DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[county]

I may have missed something but I don't see anywhere or anything that would indicate La Buzz Stables or that Roman Preciado doesn't care about their horses? I've raised and sold livestock for slaughter and breeding stock all my life and can assure you I cared about each and every head. Its how we make our living to not care about them would be very folish and we'd be broke very soon.

[Marli]

Hi County-

And I have to compliment you on your stock- I was up late the other nite, surfin' the net a little, and checked your website. Some fine looking horses. Can't wait to see your youngstock! :yes:

And you're correct that there hasn't been any direct comment made by the trainer/owner. The information gathered is 'suggestive' that there isn't any regard given. And again, I will reitterate that we have contacted some owners/trainers that do want to do right by their horses. That ole' saying- a few bad apples spoils the bunch kinda thing....

[county]

I think maybe its just that some think anyone who doesn't do things their way has to be wrong I have no problems with anyone that doesn't want to sell their livestock to slaughter but that hardly makes someone who does wrong or they don't " do right " with them.

[rigoletto]

Along with that, if you've ever been to a slaughterhouse (equine). While the processing is professional and clean, it is shocking to see them walk so calmly to a certain point, then just panic when they smell, followed by watch what is going on. It's definitely a stressful, frightening thing for them.

I've seen videos of horses being slaughtered, but I know that I couldn't deal with it live. The videos were traumatic enough . The entire process from auction, to transport and slaughter is wrought with cruelty and inhumane treatment. We owe our horses much better than this.

[county]

I don't know about your slaughter system but the ones I see aren't that way at all fact is there no differant then any other species. Perfect? No but not many things are, fact is though the strictest transport laws for slaughter animals are horses.

Marli, thank you very much we try hard to breed some nice working type horses. No foals yet but first one is due the 27th.

[DLee]

I think maybe its just that some think anyone who doesn't do things their way has to be wrong I have no problems with anyone that doesn't want to sell their livestock to slaughter but that hardly makes someone who does wrong or they don't " do right " with them.

Right and wrong is pretty much a matter of opinion then I guess.

[Kenike]

I don't know about your slaughter system but the ones I see aren't that way at all fact is there no differant then any other species. Perfect? No but not many things are, fact is though the strictest transport laws for slaughter animals are horses.


I'm talking American system, Dallas-Crown, to be exact. But I'm not the one who brought up transport (moot point). Not trying to argue, just sharing what I saw. :)

[county]

Dallas Crown is no differant then 100's of other slaughter plants across the country. Most of us eat meat that comes out of them every week of one species or another.

[caffeinated]

I think maybe its just that some think anyone who doesn't do things their way has to be wrong I have no problems with anyone that doesn't want to sell their livestock to slaughter but that hardly makes someone who does wrong or they don't " do right " with them.

county- I think the issue I have is that the horse wasn't given a "chance"- sending a horse direct to slaughter means that it never had a chance at a different opportunity (except for a few good people in the right place at the right time). I recognize that race trainers are trying to make a living, that it's a really hard business, and that horses not earning their keep have to go, to make room for horses that will. And because of that I try not to be too judgey about trainers who ship horses off to New Holland or wherever, provided they're going through the sale, where they at least have a *chance* If it doesn't work out, it's sad to me, but at least there was an opportunity there for the horse to earn his keep in a different way, or make someone happy.

So many of the horses coming off the track are still useful- they're not rogues, or incurable, or crippled- they just need a little time off and some work and can be perfectly useful members of society. When people don't even give them the chance for that, to me, that's not doing right by the horse. I know I have more of a "pet" mentality than you do, but there's something that really bothers me about taking an animal that worked so very hard for you, and gave its all for you, and perhaps hurt itself for you, and just tossing it. Even if you can't afford to keep that animal anymore, at least give it a fighting shot at doing something else useful, you know?

If the horse actually gets through a sale and nobody wants it- it was still given a shot, at least. Maybe not the best shot, but a shot nonetheless.

[county]

I agree with you totally thats why I've always felt people should at least sell their horses through an auction rather then directly to a kill buyer. Like you said the horse gets a chance small as it may be, but still a chance. I do the same with my stock cows I cull out, rather then take them directly to a packing plant I sell at auction. They may get bought buy the packing plant buyer but some get bought by other breeders that hace cattle not as good as the ones in my program. Others that are halter broke and tame sometimes get bought by Amish farmers and used for home milk cows.

[Kenike]

Dallas Crown is no differant then 100's of other slaughter plants across the country. Most of us eat meat that comes out of them every week of one species or another.

I'm not discounting that, not at all! I was only stating the reaction I physically saw, with my own two eyes, when the horses in the kill line came around the corner and were assaulted with the smell and sights of what awaited them. That's all.

And I also totally agree that it's so, so, so sad to just sell directly to a kill buyer or slaughterhouse. Even "old" horses deserve the chance to have more in life. :no:

Back to the point of the thread, I'll forever be a fan of the Zito's, and I'm thrilled someone was able to rescue this horse....despite the sadness I feel for the countless other horses.

[Linny]

Kim, Nick and Bob LaPenta have been wonderful to work with and really want this story to be spread far and wide. It is their hope, and ours, that this will help raise awareness of just how vigilant people must be in keeping track of horses they want to protect when the horses change hands. Thankfully, Little Cliff is safe and will always be cared for now. The shock and sadness in Kim Zito's voice the day I called her almost made me cry. Then she was angry that Ramon Preciado didn't care enough to pick up the phone and try to find the horse a better place to go than the direct to slaughter pen. Even if he didn't see the sticker, there's no excuse for not trying. I guess he wanted to money from the dealer more than he wanted to protect the horse. He's apparently one of this guy's steady customer's. The dealer spilled his guts.

I know Nick and Kim and have met LaPenta. The Zito's are very interested in what becomes of their former charges and put that sticker on all of them. It is simply impractical for them to keep them all but they ARE willing to go to great lengths to help.

[cloudyandcallie]

thanks to all the rescue people. but has you know there are thousands more OTTBs who meet horrible deaths. My girl was OTTB who was going to be "filly mignon" when I rescued her. turned out to have perfect conformation once she got weight on her, and perfect bloodlines. and smart as a whip. "Kick and Howl"
so keep rescuing. I'm going to get 3 or 4 more OTTB mares (when barren they get cast aside) as soon as I sell a building and buy some land in horse country.
I think everyone who does rescues especially like at New Holland, is wonderful. keep up the work I know it is heartbreaking sometimes, but wonderful when an unknown and not famous horse can be rescued.

[Linny]

I completely agree, this is what it all comes down to, irresponsible breeding :mad: makes me incredibly mad that people are SO careless. I guess this is what happens though when people gamble with living animals, doesn't matter so much when its poker or roulette.

Irresponsible breeding is part of the issue but not most of it. Many of the horses that end up as either slaughter cases or in dire need of re-homing ARE fairly well bred. Cliff was a stakes competitor, a son of a leading stallion, himself a champion racehorse.

I realize how expensive it is to maintain racehorses, even at lesser venues. I know that even at lesser tracks that most of the people caring for the horses are good horsemen, trying to do their best by their stock. A few bad apples spoil the repuation of the whole bunch. It is unfair to assume that any horse competing at smaller tracks is somehow at risk. They are not.
I have been lucky in that most of my involvement in racing has been in NY and I have seen many top horses. I've also seen average stock who are better suited to lesser tracks/circuits. Just because NY trainers let horses go to lesser circuits doesn't make the evil. These are racehorses and if NY is too tough maybe New Jersey or maryland will suit. Similarly, if they can't cut it there, someone in West VA might have a spot for them etc. People like the Zito's do what they can, within their power to help provide. If owners like LaPenta want to deal in stakes horses they have every right to sell the ones that don't work out. (I own a small share in a former LaPenta/Zito horse.) It is a business yet they try to help out their former stock if they can. If the owner or trainer were not willing to drop a dime on Cliff's behalf, that is just pathetic.
I saw some pics of Cliff from they day he was rescued. He looked great. I was amazed that a horse that looked so healthy would have been in the killer pen, but in today's economy, even fit healthy horses are hard to market.

[county]

I'm always amazed that people are surprised healthy, fit, good weight horses are slaughtered. Exactly what type animal do people like for their meat source? I've yet to hear anyone say I can't wait to eat a steak from a skinny, crippled, sick animal.

[Linny]

My surprise is not because I would want to eat meat from sickly animals (I do eat chicken and pork but not beef) but because I would imagine that such animals would at least be given a chance by someone.

[Blueshadow]

Linny, roughly 15% of US horses slaughtered are TBs - say 15,000 per year, and a large fraction of those are young, straight off the track. They are young and fit, some are injured, but often the injuries are relatively minor and six months off with appropriate care will heal them (otherwise the horse would have been euthanized at the track).

They aren't given a chance because resources are insufficient to save them all. Rescues can only do so much. I don't know what the market for sporthorses looks like in your part of the world, but in CA warmbloods dominate the hunter/jumper world. We are IMPORTING them! Sort of ironic to me - that we are importing horses from Europe while 100,000 of our own are exported for slaughter.

In CA alone, 2500 racehorses leave the tracks every year at the conclusion of their careers. Some of those will be bred (fillies). Some are donated to TB retirement farms. Some are lucky. But the rest?

If you have any ideas for giving them a better chance they would be greatly appreciated. CA is trying to introduce an owner opt out fee on race winnings to support racehorse retirement. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the numbers and they are predicting a 50% opt out rate but it's a start...

[county]

I guess thats the part I don't understand, I mean if people want to give money to " save the horses " thats fine its their money. But I just don't get the save one species over another deal? Milk cows are sent to slaughter when they no longer milk yet people gobble up hamburgers by the millions. I don't see the horse as being so special more then the cow?

[Linny]

One proposal I would make would be for those tracks that have slots. I would demand that a percentage, however small, of slot revenue be funnelled directly to a center of some sort designed to retrain and place useful TB's coming off that track.
The model at Fingerlakes (upstate NY) is a good one. The FLTAP program is associated with the Exceller Fund.

While no method is perfect, and sadly, horses slip through the cracks I think that if track management gets on board with such attempts there is a greater likelihood of success.

[Evalee Hunter]

I guess thats the part I don't understand, I mean if people want to give money to " save the horses " thats fine its their money. But I just don't get the save one species over another deal? Milk cows are sent to slaughter when they no longer milk yet people gobble up hamburgers by the millions. I don't see the horse as being so special more then the cow?

I would prefer that there be no slaughter of horses. However, I am with you, County, when you say how is one species better than another? I have been saying for at least the last 35 or 40 years that anyone who can eat a cute little lamb (and lambs are CUTE!!) should have no problem whatsoever eating a horse. For that matter, piglets are CUTE and calves, but that doesn't stop people from eating veal. No, I have never understood how someone can eat one species & not another.

Temple Grandin says she would prefer that there be no slaughter, but she doesn't think that will ever happen as people evolved to include meat in their diet, so she puts her efforts into making slaughter humane & I really think that's where our efforts should be. Don't outlaw slaughter of horses; keep it in this country where we can regulate it; make it as humane as possible; use education to reduce breeding & use more education to urge horse owners to look for other answers rather than slaughter.

[Kenike]

I'm always amazed that people are surprised healthy, fit, good weight horses are slaughtered. Exactly what type animal do people like for their meat source? I've yet to hear anyone say I can't wait to eat a steak from a skinny, crippled, sick animal.

I guess thats the part I don't understand, I mean if people want to give money to " save the horses " thats fine its their money. But I just don't get the save one species over another deal? Milk cows are sent to slaughter when they no longer milk yet people gobble up hamburgers by the millions. I don't see the horse as being so special more then the cow?

County, it's a rare thing, but I actually agree with you 100% on both of these quotes!! :yes:

[DickHertz]

I guess thats the part I don't understand, I mean if people want to give money to " save the horses " thats fine its their money. But I just don't get the save one species over another deal? Milk cows are sent to slaughter when they no longer milk yet people gobble up hamburgers by the millions. I don't see the horse as being so special more then the cow?

Cows are raised in this country for human consumption - horses are not. That's the difference.

[Kenike]

Very true, Dick...but the majority don't realize that DAIRY cattle are eventually sent to be processed alongside the known BEEF cattle.

[county]

Actually some buy and raise horses for human consumption also. Theres a number of feedlots here some buy young cattle to feed and two buy young horses to feed.

[RiddleMeThis]

Very true, Dick...but the majority don't realize that DAIRY cattle are eventually sent to be processed alongside the known BEEF cattle. Cattle/Pigs/chickens/ect ect are all raised as livestock. Most in those categories are those raised for use for consumption, whether its meat or milk. Horses are not, horses have always been raised for us as our partners. A partner for use on the ranch. A partner on the hunt field, or cross country course or show jumping field. A partner racing barrels. Etc etc.

[RiddleMeThis]

Actually some buy and raise horses for human consumption also.
In the US? Wow feel sorry for them at the price they are getting for their horses.:no::no: Probably not even enough to feed them decently.:cry:

[county]

Horses are raised as partners? Some are and some aren't not everyone sees things one way in life. And no the ones in feedlots are fed very well same as any other species of livestock your not going to stay in business long not feeding well for slaughter. The profit margin is the bottom line in any business not what something sells for. Cattle sell much higher then slaughter horses but feeder cattle cost much more then feeder horses do. All that matters is the bottom line to the feedlot operator.

[county]

BTW horses are also raised as livestock and considered as such I have about 30 head right now and I, the Gov. and the IRS all call them livestock thank goodness

[Kenike]

Yes, horses are considered livestock and not partner/companion animals (like dogs and cats)....at least in terms of government and zoning.

BTW, the "majority" I was speaking of are the average joe blow who doesn't know a tail from an ear, so to speak. The average suburbanite and city slicker. (not all, of course)

[DickHertz]

In the US? Wow feel sorry for them at the price they are getting for their horses.:no::no: Probably not even enough to feed them decently.:cry:

LOL...very true.

[county]

So how much are they getting and what are their costs? My guess is you don't even have a clue.

[Blueshadow]

Temple Grandin says she would prefer that there be no slaughter, but she doesn't think that will ever happen as people evolved to include meat in their diet, so she puts her efforts into making slaughter humane & I really think that's where our efforts should be. Don't outlaw slaughter of horses; keep it in this country where we can regulate it; make it as humane as possible; use education to reduce breeding & use more education to urge horse owners to look for other answers rather than slaughter.

Sorry, I'm through with Temple Grandin. Wonderful work in promoting humane slaughter for every US feed species BUT not equines. In not one horse SH plant in the US have her recommendations for cattle etc. been pursued or employed. I just don't think it is a high priority for her. Repeated statements about the "need" for horse slaughter (since we simply can't afford to euthanize another 1/8 as many terribly unwanted horses as we already do every year) but nothing about the need for humane slaughter methods for horses...

And County - congratulations on turning this into a HS debate thread;) No more debate from me.

[county]

I didn't turn it into anything, fact is I didn't bring the subject up but see what you choose as always.

[Lora]

Are there any updated on this horse?

[cloudyandcallie]

I worry that only horses who have some degree of fame or whose former owners or trainers were famous are getting publicity. Like who cares how famous a horse was if he must go thru the terror of going to slaughter and ending up on someone's dinner plate? Pictures of all the horses who go to the kill pen should be spread all over the internet, and some TV reporters and stations also will help out. Everyone needs to know how many die. Like the animal control facilities in my area where no dog and cat counts are given, they should televise every kill, or at least put it on the internet, so people can see their dogs and cats and horses die. Might make one or two quit breeding or throwing their animals away. I rescued an "unknown" OTTB mare 7 yrs ago and while she had not done well on the track, she was 3-4-5 of 26 races, she was royally bred and had perfect conformation once she got some weight on her, and believe me, I bought her cause she had huge intelligent eyes, not for any other reason. And I'll be looking for a couple of more just like her after I sell a building so I won't have to board any more. Hats off to the people who go to New Holland and other kill pens and do rescues. It is heartbreaking to know that many horses, not famous, are going thru there and ending up being strung up and bled out at slaughterhouses. :eek:

[cloudyandcallie]

well, the debate continues, but.....................in Korea they eat dogs. cats are pretty safe everywhere since they have a lot of muscle, except for my ex-barn cat now house cat Tobey who got portly when I rescued him from a barn. So culturally, we are different from Koreans and from the French and Belgians and Japanese who eat horses. So as e.b.white said, when we eat meat, we have to ignore our consciences. I have occasionally gone vegetarian for a year or two at a time, motified by eating sea food, and it was good. Exposure to meat can make us eat it when everyone else is eating it. Despite being in BBQ country, I gave up pork years ago. I try to limit the amt. of steak I eat. And I gave up McDonald's and all many years ago when I learned that dairy cattle don't get retired when they cannot get pregnant and produce milk. Most of the "hamburgers" sold in stores and fast food and groceries are dead dairy cows, and the recent pix of the california company shoveling live downer holsteins to slaughter is just the tip of the iceberg. I cannot do vegan, but I can do a limited amt. of beef cattle, some chickens (altho I do close my eyes when I see the Claxton chicken trucks with the squeezed together chickens on the road--closing eyes on hwy is not good) and I eat sea food and freshwater fish, hoping I'm not killing porpoises from sea food. So culturally, we don't kill horses or dogs or cats for food here. Like in India, no cows are eaten. It's not that we need to eat beef, it is a learned habit. We can give it up. And cutting out fast food restaurants is a first step. So my view is no, we don't need to slaughter horses. They should be put down by a vet and buried. period. Like I do mine when I have to. I wouldn't see a dead horse to a rendering plant for any reason. :eek: But then my horses have always been my pets since childhood, just like all my dogs and cats. Don't dump bodies in the trash, so never did it to the 3 horses I've buried all thru my life.

[carol_okc]

Where is Jonathan Swift when we need him?

[rigoletto]

While the bigger name horses, or those with big name connections, are the ones who get the press, I can promise you that those of us who work in rescue mourn the loss of each and every horse and do our best to ID as many as we can so that, whether we can save them or not, they do not remain nameless. I don't think that one horse is more deserving of rescue than another. When we rescued Little Cliff, we had no idea who he was. For several days we called him the "clipped bay gelding" because the photo of his tattoo was too dark to read. I was stunned when I pulled his raced record.

Its excruciating when we ID a horse, make calls to former connections on it's behalf in an effort to save it (all in the short period of time we have while the auction is going on) only to be turned down and end up knowing that horse will load on the kill buyer's truck to Canada or Mexico. I lose sleep over it. But I know their names. There is actually a website that is going to start keeping track of the horses saved as well as the horses lost to slaughter. These horses deserve to be identified. They deserve a dignified and humane retirement - a safety net that the industry hasn't provided for them, but until that happens, at least we can try to let people know who they are. There are horses I am still looking for that I might never know what ultimately happened to.

A couple of weeks ago we ID'd 4 horses. Three of the four shipped to slaughter. One sold privately. We were able to contact two of the four breeders or owners. One person (a prominent breeder in the MidAtlantic area) said he was not in a position to help. The other person thought that her horse was with her uncle at Charlestown. Her uncle had sold the horse to the kill buyer who told the guy he had a "nice girl" looking for a horse - at least that's what the uncle said. We couldn't get anything done in time for these horses. Some weeks we have better luck (or the funds to rescue on our own.)

Have to go feed my field full of rescue horses.

[rigoletto]

Are there any updated on this horse?


Little Cliff is doing pretty well. He had strangles from his time in the broker's lot but is recovering. Once he has fully recovered and is out of quarantine he will ship to KY to Kim and Nick Zito's place. He's a nice horse... Thanks for asking.

[rigoletto]

I didn't turn it into anything, fact is I didn't bring the subject up but see what you choose as always.

Amazing how you can turn a thread about a horse rescue into a heated debate. Why don't you spread your sunshine somewhere else? You're entitled to your opinion, but you're a real downer, ya know??

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Wow.

:(

ditto this.

[bobbybobby]

there is just as many horses sold to slaughter at major tracks as there is from cheaper tracks....the trainers may tell you a different story but that is a fact....the only difference from most trainers at belmont and evangeline downs is money and opportunity

[cloudyandcallie]

Thanks to all of you for saving as many horses as you can. If I can ever get our building on River Street sold here, I'm going to quit boarding and buy a "farmette" in horse country and contact you to get 2 or 3 OTTB "wild and crazy" mares. Love those horses. My old girl "Kick and Howl" was smart and beautiful and hot. Want 2 or 3 just like her, but with diesel and all costs, must wait to have my own place, as board for my Hessen is high and costs more to get to the barn than his board is! So cannot replace my girl till I get out of boarding and go back to having horses at home like when I was growing up.
So don't find my perfect mares yet, they can be old and arthritic, and barren, I don't believe in breeding since I can buy a horse cheaper than I could breed and raise one, but must be smart and not alpha, but spirited, and opinionated, I had the combination of Round Table and War Admiral, so my mare had definite opinions about what was to be done, how and when.
Thanks for doing all the rescues, it is so hard to see the ones who will die, and not be able to afford to save them. And things will get worse as the economy tanks.

[aspenlucas]

Christy Sheidy and Another Chance For Horses are awesome. I have rescued MANY broker horses through her. I currently have a daughter of Wolfe Power due to foal any day!

[cloudyandcallie]

The TB retirement fund and canter and all the TB rescues have a lot of geldings available, but I want a couple of the old mares who raised and then were broodmares, the ones who used to be sold for 500 at fasig-tipton auctions when the mares were old and barren. guess they still are sold, but maybe to the kill buyers right at the track for 275 a pop??:eek:

[Bluey]

Christy Sheidy and Another Chance For Horses are awesome. I have rescued MANY broker horses through her. I currently have a daughter of Wolfe Power due to foal any day!

I would say that it doesn't make much sense to be, on one hand, saying one is rescuing and, on the other hand, breeding yet one more horse, in a world awash with unwanted horses, unless I am missing something here?:confused:

Playing musical chairs with horses and saying we are rescuing seems to be of questionable logic.:(

[Blueshadow]

The TB retirement fund and canter and all the TB rescues have a lot of geldings available, but I want a couple of the old mares who raised and then were broodmares, the ones who used to be sold for 500 at fasig-tipton auctions when the mares were old and barren. guess they still are sold, but maybe to the kill buyers right at the track for 275 a pop??:eek:

Hey, when you're ready to take on a lovely former TB broodmare, give me a shout;) I have a couple of beautiful former broodmares/racehorses rescued at auction available for adoption...And they really are loves. :)

[Blueshadow]

I would say that it doesn't make much sense to be, on one hand, saying one is rescuing and, on the other hand, breeding yet one more horse, in a world awash with unwanted horses, unless I am missing something here?:confused:

Playing musical chairs with horses and saying we are rescuing seems to be of questionable logic.:(

Maybe she was rescued in foal?

[Bluey]

Maybe she was rescued in foal?

Yes, I was wondering, but have not heard yet.
We either are part of the solution or have to agree that there is no easy solution and keep doing what we want in our horse industry.
I just think it would make more sense to try to be honest with ourselves on what we decide to do.

I know what I am speaking about, since I had those same discussions with myself in the early 1970's and eventually decided that we can use our animals in many ways, short of direct abuse.
We can take risks with horses, running, jumping, just starting them under saddle, hauling them down the road here and there, breeding them and know that sometimes it ends up badly.
Taking risks is part of life and all alive will eventually die.

I just see many today wanting to have it both ways, that is why my question.
Rescuing and breeding is antagonistic, when the main reason there are horses to rescue is just because of too many horses.
It doesn't seem to be being very honest with ourselves, or maybe we are not wanting to think the situation to it's real end.
Wearing ethical blinders is never becoming.

[Linny]

there is just as many horses sold to slaughter at major tracks as there is from cheaper tracks....the trainers may tell you a different story but that is a fact....the only difference from most trainers at belmont and evangeline downs is money and opportunity

This is not true. I am not saying that horses never leave the big leaque tracks for a killer auction but more horses that leave NY (for example, my home circuit) turn up hale and hearty on lesser circuits, and often remain so for years. There are two kinds of dropdowns seen alot in NY. First are the stakes barns that sell through the claiming ranks to unload horses that don't pan out. (Little Cliff belonged in this category.) Many of these types are very successful, even in some stakes at lesser venues. These operations are making room for new young prospects. The second is low end claimers who reach the bottom at NYRA, which is about $10, sometimes $7.5k. A horse that can win at $5 or $6k will find a niche on a circuit with that level and as long as his needs are met, he can be a profitable horse.

I'm not trying to imply that NY horsemen are saints and lesser level horsemen are sinners but when you are at the top of the "class chain" there are many levels below for a basically sound, fit (but slower) horse to make a home for himself. When he can't win for $3500 whoever has him at that time tends to get stuck. Bottom claimers are like a game of musical chairs russian roulette. No one wants to be left holding the broken horse. This is why horsemen like Zito and his wife Kim and others at the upeer echelon who CAN help (and do, alot) try to tag horses papers and spread the word and raise money.

[Blueshadow]

Bluey I agree, and prefer that people NOT breed rescued horses. Strongly prefer. With TB broodmares, in particular, they are usually at auction or otherwise dumped because they/their offspring have no commercial value in that industry. Why would anyone perpetuate that?

There are some difficult issues though with rescued broodmares that have had no training for many years (and I would note, by contrast to an earlier post, that not all of them that are dumped are old or barren - I've seen many that are young and reproductively healthy, or in foal). Is it better to place them in a loving home with someone that wants to breed them for, for example, another sport or for their own personal horse, or is it better to let them live out their lives utilizing scarce donations on a TB retirement farm - when there is no other placement forthcoming? I don't have the answers. It's tough.

[Bluey]

Bluey I agree, and prefer that people NOT breed rescued horses. Strongly prefer. With TB broodmares, in particular, they are usually at auction or otherwise dumped because they/their offspring have no commercial value in that industry. Why would anyone perpetuate that?

There are some difficult issues though with rescued broodmares that have had no training for many years (and I would note, by contrast to an earlier post, that not all of them that are dumped are old or barren - I've seen many that are young and reproductively healthy, or in foal). Is it better to place them in a loving home with someone that wants to breed them for, for example, another sport or for their own personal horse, or is it better to let them live out their lives utilizing scarce donations on a TB retirement farm - when there is no other placement forthcoming? I don't have the answers. It's tough.

Those unwanted horses is what slaughter has been for, for centuries now and still is in most of the world.
Repeating, everything alive will eventually die, sooner or later, in one form or another, hopefully after a good quatity of life, for that one individual.
That it be eaten by a predator in the wild, shot, euthanized by a vet or slaughtered, it is still death and each one way has it's place, if we like it or not.

I wonder about the ethics of DEMANDING we as a society provide for horsey welfare and eventual disposition.
We can keep a few horses some of us own and keep around past their useful years, at our personal cost. That is not in dispute.
In a world where we don't have the resources for it, as you say, to demand we do so with all the unwanted horses out there stretches the imagination, when there are other ways we have traditionally disposed of those horses.

We are very close to not being able to justify using animals, if we start restricting our uses past outright abuse, just on someone's likes and dislikes.

I think it is absurd and sure against common sense to breed, train and show big lick horses, moving so grotesquely with artificial aids, big pads and cut and harnessed tails.
I will never get over the shock of seeing them stabled, handled and shown at Madison Square Garden, right along with the jumpers.

I am sure others feel like that about racing, especially when injuries happen soo publicly as it did with that mare or Barbaro and others, or jumping horses hurling over those monster fences in puissances, or over such solid big cross country fences, etc. etc.

There is much we do with horses that is objectionable to someone and to me, the way I feel about some of it is similar as others feel about slaughter.

Still, if we want to use our animals in the way we consider appropiate, we need to let others do so, no matter how :eek: :eek: :eek: we are about what they do, as long as they are not abusing horses directly.

If we don't, we are walking into the hands of the animal rights people and giving up our rights to do what we think is right with our animals, one little step at the time.:(

I say lets not ban slaughter, big lick horses, racing, anything someone finds objection to, but keep working to make it better.:)

[Blueshadow]

Those unwanted horses is what slaughter has been for, for centuries now and still is in most of the world.
Repeating, everything alive will eventually die, sooner or later, in one form or another, hopefully after a good quatity of life, for that one individual.
That it be eaten by a predator in the wild, shot, euthanized by a vet or slaughtered, it is still death and each one way has it's place, if we like it or not.

I wonder about the ethics of DEMANDING we as a society provide for horsey welfare and eventual disposition.
We can keep a few horses some of us own and keep around past their useful years, at our personal cost. That is not in dispute.
In a world where we don't have the resources for it, as you say, to demand we do so with all the unwanted horses out there stretches the imagination, when there are other ways we have traditionally disposed of those horses.

We are very close to not being able to justify using animals, if we start restricting our uses past outright abuse, just on someone's likes and dislikes.

I think it is absurd and sure against common sense to breed, train and show big lick horses, moving so grotesquely with artificial aids, big pads and cut and harnessed tails.
I will never get over the shock of seeing them stabled, handled and shown at Madison Square Garden, right along with the jumpers.

I am sure others feel like that about racing, especially when injuries happen soo publicly as it did with that mare or Barbaro and others, or jumping horses hurling over those monster fences in puissances, or over such solid big cross country fences, etc. etc.

There is much we do with horses that is objectionable to someone and to me, the way I feel about some of it is similar as others feel about slaughter.

Still, if we want to use our animals in the way we consider appropiate, we need to let others do so, no matter how :eek: :eek: :eek: we are about what they do, as long as they are not abusing horses directly.

If we don't, we are walking into the hands of the animal rights people and giving up our rights to do what we think is right with our animals, one little step at the time.:(

I say lets not ban slaughter, big lick horses, racing, anything someone finds objection to, but keep working to make it better.:)

Actually I was trying to make an argument about a horse that WAS wanted, and about a specific choice confronting a TB rescue: to keep and maintain, or to adopt out to a good home in which it may be bred. Oh well.

[P_Oed]

Does anyone know if Preciado or LA Buzz stables sold the horse off for slaughter or what? i'm from the philly area and am really interested to know how big of scumbags these people are.

[P_Oed]

those who rescued the horse, can you tell if structurally the horse is fit?I purchased his lifetime past performances and he shows being vanned off in his final start.

[rigoletto]

those who rescued the horse, can you tell if structurally the horse is fit?I purchased his lifetime past performances and he shows being vanned off in his final start.


Little Cliff was injured in his last race and remains unsound though he continues to improve.

[LA Buzz Stable]

First of all LA Buzz Stable would like to thank the bloggers of the Chronicle Forum about your posts regarding Little Cliff. Without your posts, we would not have known about Little Cliff's awful ordeal. Since we CARE ABOUT OUR HORSES, we felt the necessity to find out the FACTS, as best we could, about how Little Cliff ended up at the direct to slaughter pen. Because there has been much finger pointing, half truths, implications, mistruths & suggestive connotations at the expense of the LA Buzz Stable, so that others can promote their own agenda, LA Buzz will no longer remain silent. It has been known for weeks, by both the Thoroughbred Times & by Ms. Rigoletto (Diana Baker), that WE DID NOT KNOW about this incident. Ms. Rigoletto has knowingly been playing both sides - you the bloggers, in order to bring her own agenda and individual importance to your attention, & us, the LA Buzz Stable, trusting that she would disclose what she knew. We are unwilling to allow her to distort the facts and slander us.

There is no justice when Ms. Rigoletto can get her editorials posted in the Thoroughbred Times, because of her relationship with Ed Derosa, the staff editor who wrote the original articles, and we to date have been unable to. LA Buzz Stable has found the online article, dated April 15th, quite unprofessional as it never states that this is the way Ms. Rigoletto thought things had occured. The article was worded in such a way as to confer blame on us. Kim Zito is quoted and we are named with the result that one would think that we decided to discard Little Cliff after he ran 7th place in his last of two races for us, because we thought he was useless. LA Buzz Stable finds both articles to be slanted and factually distorted.
These are the facts:

1) The rescue groups are very well aware of who the dealers & slaughterhouse people are. But instead of demanding cessation of this practice, all too often, the extent of their involvement is limited to promoting their own agenda, even if it means doing so at the expense of others.

2) There is no Zito farm that Little Cliff will be going to. A home has to be found for him. The one inch white sticker on the back of the foal papers listed Rerun's phone number.

3) Slaughter trucks are not allowed on Philadelphia's Parks premises. Ramon was not present at the time of Little Cliff's pick-up. There were no altercations.

4) To date, there had been no reason for horsemen & trainers to look at a horse's pedigree papers. Transferring of ownership papers occurs in the Horse ID Office and merely goes from the last trainer's file into the new trainer's file. It is common practice that the papers are signed by the Stall Superintendant. If any pertinent information needs to be attached to a horses pedigree papers (like a Coggins test) customarily those papers are left at the Horse ID Office and just attached. Ms. Rigoletto should be aware of that since she has told me that her husband used to train horses.

5) In claiming horses, often the claimed horse has problems, but if you're the owner when the horse breaks down then you're the one who gets blamed, regardless of how much care you put into your horse.

6) Following up on horses once owned every thirty days, as suggested by Ms. Rigoletto, is absurd. It would be an impossible task to expect an owner to do. Perhaps in some ideal world....

LA Buzz Stable cared much & still does care about Little Cliff's well being. LA Buzz did call Bill Landes of the Hermitage Farm, where Little Cliff was bred, to see if they would be able to take Little Cliff at their farm for the remainder of his life. Unfortunately, they were unable to. We never thought of calling the Zitos as we did not know about Kim Zito's involment with horse rescue.

LA Buzz Stable has had only good experience with our trainer and had no reason to doubt his judgment or sincerity when he informed us that he had a contact who had a local farm where we could visit Little Cliff whenever we wanted to. Only after Little Cliff had been picked up at the racetrack, did we find out about the sticker being attached to his racing papers which directed the last owner to contact Rerun.

LA Buzz Stable was in the process of trying to find out the whereabouts of Little Cliff when we came upon the article posted in this forum. The LA Buzz Stable CARES ABOUT OUR HORSES & STRONGLY CONDEMNS HORSE SLAUGHTER.

In the past few weeks, we have been working closely with Barbara Luna, who is in charge of the HBPA'S horse rescue initiative at Philadelphia, in order to insure that what happened to Little Cliff does not happen again by providing a safety net for both horsemen & trainers alike.

We have already spoken with other rescue people who would like very much to work with the HBPA office once the HBPA is granted a non-profit status. LA Buzz thinks the rescue people who rescued Little Cliff did a wonderful thing and we heartily thank them.

For those of you who are truly concerned about Philadelphia Park's retired horses, I urge you to call Barbara Luna to see what you can do to help or, at the very least, to make a donation. Upon the HBPA obtaining non-profit status the LA Buzz Stable will be happy to post where donations can be sent.

The LA Buzz Stable

[DickHertz]

I am tired as it's 12:13AM and perhaps I missed it in your explanation, but what exactly did happen? Did the trainer err in judgement about who he "retired" the horse to?

[jetsmom]

I am tired as it's 12:13AM and perhaps I missed it in your explanation, but what exactly did happen? Did the trainer err in judgement about who he "retired" the horse to?

I'd be interested in knowing as well. How exactly did the horse get to the slaughter pen, and who sent it there? If they were employed by La Buzz Stables, are they still? Who's name is on the paper transferring ownership to the Killer buyer or consigning him to the auction?

[bobbybobby]

linny...take off your blinkers....do you look at the rest of the world thru rose colored glasses ???????

[caffeinated]

La Buzz... while I hope what you're saying is true, I don't understand how a horse gets on a dealer's truck and everyone is surprised by this, unless the dealer was one of those who lies to trainers about where the horse will be sold.

(and yeah, I know- that does happen. I've met several trainers now with that exact story, they were told the horse would be sold to a good home, only to find out later what happened.)

I guess it would be nice to know exactly what happened- who did Ramon think the horse was going with? Was he misled directly or... ?

[county]

Unless a trainer just fell off a turnip truck I doubt very much they don't know whats going on.

[bobbybobby]

trainers know it is just easier not to talk about it....

[Floridarider]

with all due respect La Buzz, it seems to me as if you are back peddling here to lift the responsibility quotient you were assigned when you indeed had Little Cliff. The popular " blame game" trying to transfer your carelessness and total disregard for Little Cliff has obviously caused you some backlash and you in turn are now trying to push the blame toward the very people who came to the rescue of this horse. Don't blame the people who found him, rescued him, discovered his identity and then were able to bring his plight out to the public in hopes of saving future horses. Be thankful to these folks that Little Cliff has not become effluent in a Paris sewer. Take responsibility and make sure it doesn't happen again.

[LA Buzz Stable]

can be made out to:

Turning For Home
c/o PTHA
P.O. Box 300
Bensalem, PA. 19020

[rigoletto]

Sheila,

I'm not really sure why you are attacking me and the others who saved Little Cliff's life. If Christy hadn't found him in the direct to slaughter pen, he'd have shipped to Canada that very evening and he'd have been slaughtered. If so many questions remained after our 2 hour phone call, you could have called again. I told you to call me with any questions any time. I have nothing to hide from you or anyone else. My integrity is fully intact.

I can assure you that I have no agendas. My only goal is to help as many horses as possible escape the horrors of slaughter. I've been working in horse rescue for 10 years as a volunteer - an unpaid volunteer, giving up countless hours and many thousands of dollars toward the rescue and care of at-risk horses whose owners either didn't care where they ended up, dropped the ball on placing them properly, or were duped into believing that their horses were being sent to good homes. After our conversation, I have told everyone who has asked, that you and Bob Levin, the LA Buzz Stable partners, did not know where Little Cliff was headed. I believe that you wanted him to have a good safe home. The fact that you had no idea that there are Thoroughbred rescue and retirement groups that you could have called when you were looking to place Little Cliff shows how uneducated many newer owners are. There should be information available in every horseman's office, in the back of every condition book, etc, so that horsemen who want to the right thing have ample information at hand.

How dare you question the Zito's intentions or where they plan to keep Cliff. First, I did not say they had a farm. Second, they have several prominent owners with large, lovely farms in KY where I'm sure Little Cliff is welcomed to rehab. Frankly, it's none of your business. I have no reason to question Kim Zito's intentions or her ability to care for the horse. I'm not surprised that the sticker on the horse's papers has ReRun's name on it. Kim is a founding director or the Kentucky Equine Humane Center and their Executive Director is a former ReRun, KY person. Kim told me that she put a sticker on Little Cliff's papers with her name and phone number on it. I believe Kim. I have no reason not to - she could quite possibly have put her sticker over the original ReRun sticker and Kim's sticker was somehow removed along the way.

I have no "relationship" with Ed DeRosa and am not sure where you got the idea that I do. I have spoken to him exactly ONE time - when he called to interview me for the piece in the Thoroughbred Times. I don't know why they didn't print your letter to the editor Sheila, but I certainly had nothing to do with it and no control over what the editors at the publication choose to print. As for the monthly phone calls to trainers or owners of horses you want to follow, it's not that hard to do. I've done it and continue to do so for quite a few horses. Those phone calls have saved the lives of horses I was worried about. If you're dedicated to the job at hand, it'll get done. Rescue isn't about doing what's easy. It's about doing what is best for the horses.

I do not intend to get into a tit-for-tat debate with you online Sheila. I'm sorry that you're angry and upset with the turn of events. Instead of taking your frustrations out on me and the others who saved Little Cliff's life, do something positive. Kudos to you for helping the retirement program at Philadelphia Park. Some advice though - check the adoption/placement contracts of the participating rescues and be careful whom you choose to work with. Not everyone is what they first appear to be. You have already had one bad experience. I hope you don't have another. You are still free to call me anytime (before 9:30 p.m., I live on a farm and get up early) if you have questions. I meant that and the offer is open. As I said earlier, my goal is to help horses.

[cloudyandcallie]

hey, duh, I just thought of this..............do all or any of those folks who rescue out of the new holland kill pen have paypal accounts? if so, let me know. I am going to donate to the woman who is trying to rescue her old horse from the mountaineer park, and when I thought about paypal for that, I thought, duh, I should be sending a little $ each month or so to the new holland people since they are the ones seeing all the dead and dying and trying to save some of them.
any of you know if they have paypal??
thanks

[LA Buzz Stable]

Diana -

Thank you for confirming that the LA Buzz Stable did not have anything to do with the fate that Little Cliff faced.

[rigoletto]

hey, duh, I just thought of this..............do all or any of those folks who rescue out of the new holland kill pen have paypal accounts? if so, let me know. I am going to donate to the woman who is trying to rescue her old horse from the mountaineer park, and when I thought about paypal for that, I thought, duh, I should be sending a little $ each month or so to the new holland people since they are the ones seeing all the dead and dying and trying to save some of them.
any of you know if they have paypal??
thanks

Many rescues have PayPal - AC4H does, check their website, www.AC4H.com. I'm not a computer person and my proficiency level is sorely lacking when it comes to sending links, etc... I know that any rescue that goes to the auctions and has to watch even one horse load on the kill buyer's truck would greatly appreciate funding to rescue another horse. We can't save them all, but we can try. And think of the HUGE difference made in the life of those we are able to save.

One day last month when Christy went to New Holland we ID'd 4 young Thoroughbreds. We had no funds to save any of them. It was a heartbreaking day. I try to focus on the positive, on the ones we can get out, but the horses who ship to slaughter are always on my mind.

Donations are what rescues rely on not only to save horses, but to feed and care for them.

[rigoletto]

Diana -

Thank you for confirming that the LA Buzz Stable did not have anything to do with the fate that Little Cliff faced.

You're welcome Sheila. I've told anyone who has asked me the same thing.

[Introspect]

LA Buzz, thanks for the information. However, we're still waiting for some type of clarity regarding how Little Cliff got from the barn to the kill pen supposedly under your trainer's watch. Was your trainer duped by a third party? Do your trainer dupe you with the 'good home' story? The silence since your last post is deafening. What the heck happened?

I wish you would take a much closer look at your trainer. Ramon Preciado is widely known at The Pha for being brutal toward his horses and highly aggressive in treating their ailments. People don't claim off of Preciado because when he drops them, the lemon is almost always squeezed totally dry. He is near the top at The Pha when it comes to horses being vanned off the track. Few breal em' down like him.

Combined with his documented incidents and arrests for [edit], both on and off the track, the fuller picture of Preciado is one of a mean man without a conscience. My gut tells me that this wasn't the first time a horse left his barn in a trailer bound for New Holland. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know.

[jetsmom]

Yeah I'd still like to know as well.

[Bluey]

LA Buzz, thanks for the information. However, we're still waiting for some type of clarity regarding how Little Cliff got from the barn to the kill pen supposedly under your trainer's watch. Was your trainer duped by a third party? Do your trainer dupe you with the 'good home' story? The silence since your last post is deafening. What the heck happened?

I wish you would take a much closer look at your trainer. Ramon Preciado is widely known at The Pha for being brutal toward his horses and highly aggressive in treating their ailments. People don't claim off of Preciado because when he drops them, the lemon is almost always squeezed totally dry. He is near the top at The Pha when it comes to horses being vanned off the track. Few breal em' down like him.

Combined with his documented incidents and arrests for [edit], both on and off the track, the fuller picture of Preciado is one of a mean man without a conscience. My gut tells me that this wasn't the first time a horse left his barn in a trailer bound for New Holland. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know.

Can you really say all that about a trainer, in public and where he is not there to defend himself and get by with it?
I would think you can be sued for that, since some of it you definitely would have a hard time proving.

Those are some insinuations and gossip that don't speak well of the one making them in places like here, true or not.:no:

Sounds like a character assesination by a disgruntled client or competitor with a grudge.:eek:

[DickHertz]

I don't know about Preciado's character, but I do know it's well known to not claim from him.

[Bluey]

I don't know about Preciado's character, but I do know it's well known to not claim from him.

If you have been around tracks enough, you will have heard about most everything about all trainers.:yes:
Much of it you have to take it as given, 100% gossip.;)
The information will be depending on how a trainer is doing and what owner moved the horses to another trainer and why and who got mad.:lol:

[DickHertz]

If you have been around tracks enough, you will have heard about most everything about all trainers.:yes:
Much of it you have to take it as given, 100% gossip.;)
The information will be depending on how a trainer is doing and what owner moved the horses to another trainer and why and who got mad.:lol:

Word about who to not claim from tends to be pretty accurate. I don't seem to see any or very few who improved when being claimed from Stephanie Beattie or Mark Shuman or Dale Capuano for example. I just don't see many horses claimed from Preciado, that's all. I'm not saying he's a butcher or anything like that, but he's one of a handful that you simply don't claim from at Philly.

I would be curious to know if any horses claimed from Beattie or Shuman or Capuano ever run back good.

[Introspect]

Can you really say all that about a trainer, in public and where he is not there to defend himself and get by with it?
I would think you can be sued for that, since some of it you definitely would have a hard time proving.

Those are some insinuations and gossip that don't speak well of the one making them in places like here, true or not.:no:

Sounds like a character assesination by a disgruntled client or competitor with a grudge.:eek:
The arrests and incidents I mentioned are a matter of public record. They involve the local police and racetrack security and are documented.

My grudge is that I hate to see someone break down horses with regularity.

[Bluey]

The arrests and incidents I mentioned are a matter of public record. They involve the local police and racetrack security and are documented.

My grudge is that I hate to see someone break down horses with regularity.

I stand by my opinion that to say what you did about someone by name, in a first post, where no one knows who you are, makes me wonder about a personal attack motivation and seems very base of anyone.

If you want to state that, say it to his face, not here, which amounts to saying such serious allegations behind someone's back.

Thats all, MY comment on where, what and how you said it, of someone else that is not here, deserved or not.:(

[Moderator 1]

We've removed the specific accusations of criminal activity from previous posts. While they may be a matter of public record, posters bear the responsibility for supplying documentation/proof of such charges--which should be germaine to the discussion--if they are being made in this forum.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[Marli]

Update-

Wanted to share some new pics taken this afternoon of Little Cliff. Christy said he was feeling pretty darned frisky today and he's nearly completely over the strangles, should be getting his health clearance soon. He sure is a handsome fella!

Sidenote: I had another very nice conversation w/his former owner [La Buzz] this morning and I would like to convey that from the start, she had no knowledge of what happened to this horse. According to questions asked of her trainer, he's stated that he gave the horse to a man that said he'd get a home, that's all that's known [we do know the name of the man however he did nothing illegal/slaughter is still legal].

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/LittleCliffRecovered22.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/LittleCliffRecovered00.jpg

[Twilight]

Thank you for the update Marli!!

[grayarabs]

I'm glad Little Cliff is safe. Curious - foal papers? I don't know who bred him - or who all owned him. How would Zito have had his foal papers? With change of ownership - are not the papers returned to the JC to be updated. Also if gelded, etc. I am just wondering when the Zitos had LC - and when they attached rescue info on his papers.
For the JC - do foal papers equate to registration papers? And as horse changes hands/circumstances - returned to JC and then re-issued updated? Wondering how to make sure special stickers are not overlooked/lost in any process.

[DickHertz]

I'm glad Little Cliff is safe. Curious - foal papers? I don't know who bred him - or who all owned him. How would Zito have had his foal papers? With change of ownership - are not the papers returned to the JC to be updated. Also if gelded, etc. I am just wondering when the Zitos had LC - and when they attached rescue info on his papers.
For the JC - do foal papers equate to registration papers? And as horse changes hands/circumstances - returned to JC and then re-issued updated? Wondering how to make sure special stickers are not overlooked/lost in any process.

Papers aren't returned to the jockey club. You just sign over the papers by signing the back of them.

Stickers on papers can get overlooked. Many times, trainers won't even see the foal papers because they get sent from track to track (most tracks give preference on entry when foal papers are registered in the racing office of that particular track).

[DickHertz]

Update-

Wanted to share some new pics taken this afternoon of Little Cliff. Christy said he was feeling pretty darned frisky today and he's nearly completely over the strangles, should be getting his health clearance soon. He sure is a handsome fella!

Sidenote: I had another very nice conversation w/his former owner [La Buzz] this morning and I would like to convey that from the start, she had no knowledge of what happened to this horse. According to questions asked of her trainer, he's stated that he gave the horse to a man that said he'd get a home, that's all that's known [we do know the name of the man however he did nothing illegal/slaughter is still legal].

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/LittleCliffRecovered22.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/LittleCliffRecovered00.jpg

Then the blame falls on Ramon Preciado for not caring and sending him down the road. Hopefully, La Buzz has taken any other horses away from Preciado for his lack of judgement in this case.

[Linny]

Zito was Cliff's first trainer. He was stakes placed while racing for him. Bob LaPenta is in the business of racing top class colts and when Cliff didn't "step it up" and proved a bit slower than stakes ability at 3 he was sold to run at a level at which he could be competitive. The Zito's put that sticker on all of their horse's papers.

LA Buzz, I hope that if in fact you were decieved by your trainer, and this appears to be the case, you will reconsider using him. I don't know more about him that his stats from the DRF but one way to keep these things from happening is for owners to refuse to hire such people. If your trainer was so quick to send Cliff to a killer, I tend to doubt that this was the first time he'd ever "made that call." If owners (who write the checks and call the shots) wont hire trainers who are easy to call a kill buyer then they will eventually be forced out.
It may be trivial, but if he "sold" Cliff while telling you he was "given away to nice people with a farm ...etc", then he also has stolen from you. He sold your property while telling you that said property (the horse) had no monetary value and should be given away.

[caffeinated]

ditto to linny.

I've heard several trainers talk about the "guy" who comes around saying he'll find "good homes" for the horses. Most of them know what really happens, and learned the hard way (but they learned pretty quickly). I find it hard to believe any trainer who's been around the track for more than a few years (actually, more than a few weeks, but I'll be generous) wouldn't know the dealer and where the horses are actually headed.

[Linny]

There are a few trainers that I know of you really do have several contacts for usable horses. I see their former racers showing up on for sale sites looking lovely, shiny and jumping courses etc.
Most people who have worked at tracks for any period of time become familiar with who the "killers buyers" are vs. legit outplacers. In todays world (esp. the current economy) the TB is regarded by many H/J people as cheap and/or disposable. OTTB's are not the main souce of potential show horses as there once were. Racing (adminitrators, owners trainers etc ALL need to work on this issue.

Greyarabs, foal papers stay with the horse. The JC doesn't get them back up updates. It is required that they be on file at the track when a horse races. If a horse goes from one owner to another vai the claim box, the papers stay in the same office, possibly moved to a different trainers file. Generally the new owner or trainers never looks at them. The clerk in the Horsemans Ofice may be the only one to see "papers" until it's too late.
I am in favor of requiring at least a copy of all papers everytime a horse leaves or enters a track. Some tracks require it but most are very lax.

[ASB Stars]

I don't know more about him that his stats from the DRF but one way to keep these things from happening is for owners to refuse to hire such people. If your trainer was so quick to send Cliff to a killer, I tend to doubt that this was the first time he'd ever "made that call." If owners (who write the checks and call the shots) wont hire trainers who are easy to call a kill buyer then they will eventually be forced out.
It may be trivial, but if he "sold" Cliff while telling you he was "given away to nice people with a farm ...etc", then he also has stolen from you. He sold your property while telling you that said property (the horse) had no monetary value and should be given away.


This happens in all breeds, sadly. The difference is, for example, in American Saddlebreds, the trainer will tell the owner that the horse is "no count", and say- "I sold him to X who gave me $$ for him- here ya go". The reality is that there are about a half dozen dealers who will stop by, write the check, take a good look at the horses tail- if the trainer hasn't cut it off (hair only) already- and sell the horse, with or without his tail, at one of the Amish sales- many times, right up here in PA. The Amish love a good ASB in front of the carriage. The tail is, many times, sold for several times what the horse brought. MANY trainers will sell a higher quality horse without their papers- no chance for them to turn up and embarass them later...

Owners are, IMHO, just not quick enough, or savvy enough, to question the trainers. If they were, much less of this stuff would be able to happen.

[rigoletto]

ditto to linny.

I've heard several trainers talk about the "guy" who comes around saying he'll find "good homes" for the horses. Most of them know what really happens, and learned the hard way (but they learned pretty quickly). I find it hard to believe any trainer who's been around the track for more than a few years (actually, more than a few weeks, but I'll be generous) wouldn't know the dealer and where the horses are actually headed.


I've been working in rescue for almost 10 years and have been assisting with pulling horses from kill pens for almost 5 years. I can't tell you how many times I've contacted a former owner, a breeder or trainer and been told that they had found the horse a "good home." Dealers, backstretch buyers, even other trainers sometimes, will tell unsuspecting people (owners, trainers, etc...) that they have a wonderful home lined up or that the horse will be a 4-H prospect, pony clubber, broodmare, etc.. They do it all the time and often take these horses directly to auction. I can give you a long list of horses like this. We just rescued one three weeks ago who was "on a retirement farm in Delaware." We found him in the direct to slaughter pen, just like Little Cliff. This horse had also earned close to $250k. I knew the last trainer and know he wouldn't have done this intentionally. He and the owners were sick to hear where the horse had ended up and that he had escaped going to slaughter literally by an hour or so. The horse is now safe, getting ready to be gelded and will have about a year off (sesamoid fracture) before he's adopted out and protected by a contract (and yes, I do know that nothing is foolproof.)

If you'd like the names of your local dealers or backstretch buyers, I'd be happy to give you any names that I know via private message. And if you know who your local kill buyers are, please let us know. We're making a list and would like it to be as inclusive as possible.

On another note, while notations on JC papers are not always seen, I would love to see the US do what the French Jockey Club has now implemented with a check off box on papers showing if breeders or owners would like to ensure that their horses do NOT end up slaughtered. Then the people in horse ID would be required to check the papers (some people in horse ID offices already do this routinely.) I would also love to see the horses "not to be slaughtered" microchipped and freeze branded (something small but easy to see) so that if their JC papers don't always follow them in later years, people will know that someone, somewhere will ensure that the horse has a place to go if he/she needs it.

[Linny]

Rigoletto, the "sticker" on the papers is supposed to represent a "do not slaughter" contract. Not only the breeders, but anyone who has care and control of the horse may place the sticker there (or check the box) and say (in effect) "in the event that slaughter is your only option, call me!"

I would like to encourage any owner who finds that a horse of theirs has been shipped to killers without their knowledge, by their trainer to CEASE all business with this trainer. After a time, most track folks come to know which trainers are pretty willing to sell to killers. The guys who drive the trucks sure know. If you have been duped by someone, shout it from the rooftops! Blog about it, write to the DRF about it, send and email to a member of the racing media about it. Be sure that the name of that trainer who LIED to you and possibly stole from you is out there.

I would like track administration to take in interest in the issue by requiring that every horse removed from the track do so with his papers so any stickers etc are seen. As long as shipping horses intended for slaughter is legal, tracks will have a hard time banning killer buyers from their property. Their business, while grim is legal and tracks could be charged with restraint of trade.
Many industry leaders are involved in pressing for legislation banning such shipping. While I agree with the ban, any such legislation WILL leave the equine industries (ALL of them) with an even bigger problem, what to do with the horses that would have been slaughtered...
Racing industry officials need to get the word out about stratgies they are using to prevent these horrors. When the ravings of PETA spokespeople are all the general public hears, it's time to get out the message about what the industry IS doing.

As for those in other horse sports who are bashing racing, my question is what have you done to help horses in your own sport? ASB's and QH's appear in huge numbers in kill pens. Abusive training tactics are rampant in all pursuits. Racing is the most public and thus the easiest target. Because it may have a higher percentage of fatalies than hunters doesn't mean that all hunters are treated like gold and all racers are abused.

I would refer readers of this thread to the following article, written by a very close friend of mine. He and I have spoken at length about some of the issues that have come up over the last several weeks, Eight Belles, PETA and the slaughter issue. His wife owns and shows horses and he's been in racing for many years. The bottom third or so of the column, is dedicated to a response to the HBO special on slaughter.
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=11622

[Bluey]

No matter what it is said about slaughter, the reality is that there are not enough homes for all the horses out there.
For many, many reasons, a great number of horses end up in need of disposing in one way or another.
Thru slaughter, some of those horses have one more use in many ways.

That is being confused all along with those that can't separate slaughter from abuse.

THAT is the big problem here, that some can't see slaughter as the centuries old, still perfectly good way in most of the world to dispose of some of our unwanted horses, because all they can see is the rare or less rare abuse cases that is all we hear about, taken out of context many times.

I grew up where the horses at the end of their useful time were taken to the slaugtherhouse and euthanized, yes, that is the right word for what was happening there too.
There was NO difference to a horse from what we do here or at the veterinary clinic, the horse was handled the SAME and the end was the SAME.

We need to remember that, when people keep talking about abuse happening because "a horse was on his way to slaugher", it is the persons handling the horse that are abusive and not all people abuse horses.

Remember not to let drama make you forget that a horse sold and hauled to slaughter without permission from the owners is not "slaughter's" problem, it is a crooked trainer or trader's problem.

Remember that horses abused in a pen going to slaughter is not because they are going to slaughter, it is because someone is abusive, no matter where the horses are going from there.
Those traders that abuse horses do that if they are going to another sale, to their holding/training pens or to slaughter.

There are real reasons some don't want their horses slaughtered, but those kept being brought forth here are not germane to slaughter, but to abusive practices in general, that can happen no matter what the intended use of the horses being abused is.

Abuse is abhorrent, if a horse is on his way to slaughter or to another track or trainer or breeding farm or whatever.

Remember that, when we need to decide what to do with all those horses that really, honestly, our society doesn't has use for.

[grayarabs]

LA Buzz stated that LC's papers had as contact Re-Run. You know that now (how?)- did you know it when you had him? Why then did you/anyone on the LA Buzz staff not contact Re-Run?
If the stickers are on the papers - anyone involved with the horse should know it - and honor it. How did that not happen in this case? Asking to avoid it happening again in the future.
Re: JC papers - How does the JC keep their database updated when horses change hands?
I guess I don't understand the JC in this regard.
For Arab registry- if memory serves - when horse is sold or gelded - papers are sent back to registry and re-issued updated. The new owner is listed on front of papers as well as breeder, reg no. DOB etc. I have no idea if "contact stickers" can be included - have not heard that - but would be a good idea - for all breeds.
Agree - when papers are missing etc would be nice to have another way to ID the horse - and a database to check if the horse has "stickers" - one would think through the breed registry. At least racing TB's have tatoos. So if you called the JC to get info on a horse -would the JC have "sticker" info? CAnnot recall if that is how the rescuers discovered they had Little Cliff. Sorry - dumb questions - but it seems to me there is a hole in the system somewhere. There are folks that want their horses to be safe - and that is not always happening.

[SleepyFox]

If the stickers are on the papers - anyone involved with the horse should know it - and honor it. How did that not happen in this case? .
What I think you're not understanding is that JC foal papers are handled differently than a lot of other breeds. The foal papers are turned in to the racing office and honestly, no one looks at them once identity is confirmed. It's just how it is and there isn't anything wrong with that. When the papers are folded into an envelope, you only see a small portion, also - so if you glance at them to confirm the name, you just see a bit of the papers.


Re: JC papers - How does the JC keep their database updated when horses change hands? .

They don't. You can update ownership online if you want. When the horse runs, the ownership will be updated in Equibase, which is a subsidiary of the JC. But, the JC doesn't track owners like the AQHA, etc. does. Papers aren't sent back b/c horses need to be able to race back when after they change ownership. This is very helpful b/c it saves time and money! People always struggle with this concept, but once you get used to it, you love it!


[QUOTE=grayarabs;3237692]So if you called the JC to get info on a horse -would the JC have "sticker" info? [QUOTE]
No, the JC does not track this info and they don't need to. They are not like other registries and they don't need to be.

And, I've said this before and I'll say it again - people make a big deal about these ReRun stickers, but I've never seen one and I've never had anyone (including ReRun) be able to/bother with telling me how to obtain one. I've had an awful lot of people on the Internet act like I was an idiot for not knowing about them or using them but not one person has been able to give me any real information about them. It's easy to bash owners and trainers, but apparently, it's a lot harder to actually help us. And, yes, I'm feeling snarky - no offense to you grayarabs - and yes, I do have contact info. on my horses' papers in the event they get claimed - just not these mythical, magical stickers. ;)

[LA Buzz Stable]

Posted: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:04 PM

Previous owner responds to Little Cliff’s rescue




Writing on behalf of LA Buzz, of which I am a partner, I would like to present to the readership of the Thoroughbred Times the facts as we know them to be concerning the time between Little Cliff’s last race, his subsequent rescue from a direct-to-kill pen and the furor that has helped create amongst those following this story.

Up until the time that the first article was published online in mid April (click here to read the story), my partner and I believed that Little Cliff had been taken to a farm. Little Cliff had earned second money of $3,200 in his prior race for us, but got injured in the subsequent race and had to be vanned off the racetrack after the finish of his race.

After the trainer, Ramon Preciado, confirmed that Little Cliff would never race again, my partner contacted the general manager of the farm where he was bred to inquire if we could retire him there. Unfortunately, they were unable to assist. Thereupon, the trainer told us he would see to it that Little Cliff would get a good home, and indeed told us that he had a contact that had a local farm where we could visit him.

We had only good experiences with Ramon to that point, and had no reason to question his judgment or sincerity. The horse was released to Ramon, as our agent, solely to be retired, and we received no compensation, nor gave him any consent to receive any himself. What happened to him from the time he left the track to when he was found by the rescue people remains unknown to us, despite our many efforts to find out.

After Little Cliff left the track, Ramon told us about a sticker that was in with his foal papers. Upon inspection of the papers, we discovered a half-inch-square white paste-on sticker with ReRun’s phone number. Though we knew that Nick Zito had trained Little Cliff for the majority of his career, we had no idea of the extent of the involvement Kim Zito had with horse rescue, and had no way of knowing that she wanted to be contacted.

Partly because of what happened with Little Cliff, and partly because it was already in its formative stage already, the Pennsylvania Thoroughbred Horsemen’s Association has begun an initiative to provide trainers with a place … to retire horses no longer able to race and in need of a home. Hopefully, the project will be successful in obtaining adequate financing and optimal results for the horse population at Philadelphia Park, so that what Little Cliff had to face does not happen again. LA Buzz is doing what it can to help.

LA Buzz indeed appreciates the efforts made by Another Chance For Horses on behalf of Little Cliff and the many other horses they have saved, and the efforts of all other horse rescue organizations. We also strongly condemn all horse slaughter and across the border horse transport for slaughter.

Contributions or assistance in providing homes should contact Turning For Home, in care of PTHA, P.O. Box 300, Bensalem, PA. 19020 or contact Barbara Luna of the HBPA office at Philadelphia Park

Respectfully submitted,

Robert Levin & Sheila Austrach
LA Buzz

[DickHertz]

Thanks for the response - we all know what you want to say about Ramon Preciado - there's no need to say anything else about the matter. Ramon Preciado is what he is...

[rigoletto]

Sheila,

I'm glad that you've decided to take a proactive approach to what was a tragic situation. I must say one thing though. I find it inappropriate that you are using Little Cliff's rescue and the hard work of Christy Sheidy and AC4H to ask for donations for the Philadelphia Park program that's not even really off the ground yet. And isn't a non profit at this point. I'm thrilled that the horses from Philly will have some protection, but have yet to see any evidence of anything actually happening. Have any horses been taken in yet? I wish you and 'Turning for Home' all the best and hope that other tracks will follow suit. Why don't you fundraise on your own thread though. You had nothing to do with Little Cliff's rescue and have taken every opportunity to bash me and others involved both publicly and privately (people talk.) I have nothing against you personally, but cut it out. Christy, Lisa and I helped save the horse's life after those who should have been watching out for him dropped the ball. None of us ever said that you or Bob sent the horse to slaughter or had knowledge of the horse being sold for slaughter. That's your issue. I'm glad that's been cleared up. You were devastated when you found out as any decent person would have been. Kudos to you for doing something positive. But fundraise for the new program on your own thread on your own time. Not on Little Cliff's or AC4H's. It's inappropriate.

Diana

Diana

[reese]

LA Buzz, thanks for the information. However, we're still waiting for some type of clarity regarding how Little Cliff got from the barn to the kill pen supposedly under your trainer's watch. Was your trainer duped by a third party? Do your trainer dupe you with the 'good home' story? The silence since your last post is deafening. What the heck happened?

I wish you would take a much closer look at your trainer. Ramon Preciado is widely known at The Pha for being brutal toward his horses and highly aggressive in treating their ailments. People don't claim off of Preciado because when he drops them, the lemon is almost always squeezed totally dry. He is near the top at The Pha when it comes to horses being vanned off the track. Few breal em' down like him.

Combined with his documented incidents and arrests for [edit], both on and off the track, the fuller picture of Preciado is one of a mean man without a conscience. My gut tells me that this wasn't the first time a horse left his barn in a trailer bound for New Holland. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know.

Birds of a feather stick together. Just like this La Buzz Stable claiming..."but we don't know anything"... as despicable as their trainer




They take the racing public and fans for a bunch of idiots. Who really believes the same old tired mantra...but "we thought he was going to a good home on a farm..." We didn't know...blah,blah,blah. I'm waiting for the owners of the next "famous" horse found at NH to come up with more "novel" excuse.

All this La Buzz stable is interested in saying is "but we didn't know..."we're not responsible". NEVER REPLYS to "what they did "know" and "what they did after they found out."..NOTHING, until Little Cliff's sorry tale made it to the racing media then the Buzz Stable shows up to say, "but we didn't know" "We're not responsible", even (though we were the owners).

Get real.

Who believes that fairytale?

[I'm EBO]

You mean they'd have some credibility if they dumped Preciado rather than kissing and making up?

[reese]

You mean they'd have some credibility if they dumped Preciado rather than kissing and making up?

:no: People of the same values and morals stick together... they find each other... the trainer is a "lowlife", and you fill in the rest...like the same type of bird flocks with birds like him...birds of a feather ..

[cloudyandcallie]

well first off that's the same old story as a dog "going to a farm" and being sent to be gassed.
and then if some one lied to you about that and sent your horse to the kill pen, wouldn't you dump him and figure that he had cheated you on everything else?
and then, no one in racing in that area is ignorant of the new holland kill pen.
so.............................

[jetsmom]

I had emailed La Buzz and got a reply back wanting to know how I got their email, and what my "connection" was. I just wanted to know, how the horse got from the trainer to the kill pen, and who lied to who, and what was done about it. I wish they would answer that, and end the speculation, and let us know that whoever lied about the "good home" was at least publicly outed and reported to the track, and made known to other owners and trainers.

I haven't received a reply to my email since telling them that the email is on the link on this forum, and I have no connection, other than being curious about as Paul Harvey used to say "the rest of the story".

[Introspect]

Preciado claimed one yesterday at the Pha for La Buzz.

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/PHA060708USA4.pdf

[DickHertz]

Wow. I take back everything nice I said about La Buzz for their half-assed apology on this site.

To continue with Preciado, who is a known butcher, says all we need to know about La Buzz Stables.

We were actually looking at that horse, but Repole Stables horses tend to a bit on the lame side IMO. 1st tier races in NY, 2nd tier at the PHA, and 3rd tier in Penn National.

P.S. Based on La Buzz's response to sending a horse to slaughter, maybe Preciado dropped the claim slip without their knowledge.

[Introspect]

Ditch the Witch is a filly with layoff gaps between every start. She is now in a barn that will use the most aggressive vet work possible to keep her going. She will continue to travel poorly, but because her form shows her to be a hard tryer, she will win cheaply for Preciado. For how long before she disappears is the question.

You are also right about the Repole horses at the Pha- they claim a lot of classy but questionable horses on the drop, and their breakdown rate seems to be higher than normal. Kid Lemonade broke down in the 7th today at the Pha.

[hundredacres]

I would prefer that there be no slaughter of horses. However, I am with you, County, when you say how is one species better than another? I have been saying for at least the last 35 or 40 years that anyone who can eat a cute little lamb (and lambs are CUTE!!) should have no problem whatsoever eating a horse. For that matter, piglets are CUTE and calves, but that doesn't stop people from eating veal. No, I have never understood how someone can eat one species & not another.



It's the same logic that keeps us from eating our dogs and cats. We, as a country have concluded that we have pets, and we have meat animals. It's not really that complicated or bizarre at all. We don't eat people either - and we're meat. Horses for most Americans, fall into the pet catagory (along with parrots, monkeys and a myriad of other animals we chose not to eat). I don't get why people who say "I don't get it, it's just livestock", don't get it. It's really simple. We don't eat horse meat in this country because it freaks the average American out. Just like Warren Jeffs freaks out the average American; sure there are a few people in America that believe it's ok to breed young women - but it's not a difference of opinion, it's our cultural norm that has dictated that marrying 14 year olds is not allowed. If you are a supporter of eating horse meat in this country, YOU are the minority. Otherwise, it would be a norm. If you think eating horse meat is great - you are peobably used to people looking at you strange. It cracks me up when people think it's a difference of opinion. No, it's a difference in what is culturally acceptable, decided by a republic of people.

[Kenike]

That was a great post, hundredacres :yes:

[DickHertz]

I'm sure County is in the minority with most of his views. He just doesn't get it (which is why I changed my signature a few days ago).

[Nlevie]

I haven't read this whole thread because those who have opinions about slaughter are NOT going to change their minds because of anything I have to say. But here goes - I understand and agree with the statement that Americans don't want to eat horses, just like they don't want to eat dogs & cats, and I also wish ALL dogs & cats, just like ALL horses could live out their lives in good homes. . . BUT, we as a society have come to accept that dogs & cats have to be put down because there aren't enough good homes for them, so why can't people agree that the same should be done for unwanted horses ? I would MUCH rather see a horse humanely put down than to live in pain or suffering ! How is that any different than a dog or cat ? Besides which, horses live longer AND are more expensive to take care of ? Personally I don't care if those bodies are then used to feed someone in another country, but that's not the point, we need a reasonably priced method to dispose of unwanted horses, just as we have for our other pets. If we don't have that in the US, people will do whatever is easiest and cheapest for them when they can't care for a horse any longer. . .

[DickHertz]

If we don't have that in the US, people will do whatever is easiest and cheapest for them when they can't care for a horse any longer. . .

And those people would get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

If you can't pay to have a horse put down, then you shouldn't have a horse.

[I'm EBO]

Nlevie--I don't quarrel with your logic that equates horses with dogs and cats, but I think you're overlooking the slaughter process for horses. If they were carefully put down in a non-stressful manner, it would be one thing, but that is NOT what happens to them.

Have you not seen the photos or videos of horses crammed in double-decker trailers designed for pigs and cattle? Have you not seen the misery caused by the horrific treatment at low rent auction houses? Have you not seen videos of horses being repeatedly hit with a captive bolt? If not, I can direct you to the evidence of what horses go through in the slaughter process. Then, after seeing that with your very own eyes, I would like for you to tell me how slaughter equates with being humanely put to sleep.

If your point is that humane euthanasia really should be provided for unplaceable horses, that's fine with me. One (or more) of the rescue organizations does have a euthanasia fund for those people who cannot afford to put their horse down. So far, there have been no takers, as far as I know. I'm afraid that people would rather get a few bucks out of their old pal's carcass than provide an easy way out for that old pal.

In this thread, the owners of Little Cliff claim that they didn't know their trainer (who has a ghastly reputation for abusing horses) sent their horse to slaughter. Since they know that now, one has to wonder why they are letting him claim another horse in their name--that is if they are aware that has been done.

[Glimmerglass]

Overlooked in the "what happened to Big Brown" of the Belmont Stakes press conferences:

DRF June 12, 2008 (http://drf.com/news/article/95408.html)

Zito praises Guilliams after Belmont

People who worked for years with the late Cliff Guilliams at Kentucky racetracks were highly appreciative of how Nick Zito went out of his way to talk about Guilliams during the post-race media conference at the Belmont Stakes last Saturday.

Guilliams, a longtime racing writer and chartcaller who died suddenly April 12 at age 52, could frequently be seen hanging around the Zito barn at Churchill, particularly on mornings leading up to the Kentucky Derby.

Zito, the trainer of victorious Da' Tara, said he was dedicating the Belmont to Guilliams, calling him "loyal" and "a special friend . . . a good guy."

(For those glancing at this thread for the first time - Cliff Guiliams is for whom the horse was named 'Little Cliff')

[Twilight]

So I guess we should all prepare ourselves for another defensive, self-serving post from whatshername the owner.

[Bluey]

---"Have you not seen the photos or videos of horses crammed in double-decker trailers designed for pigs and cattle? Have you not seen the misery caused by the horrific treatment at low rent auction houses? Have you not seen videos of horses being repeatedly hit with a captive bolt? If not, I can direct you to the evidence of what horses go through in the slaughter process. Then, after seeing that with your very own eyes, I would like for you to tell me how slaughter equates with being humanely put to sleep."---

Have you seen the many, many trailers other traders take their horses to slaughter in, some nicer than many people have that go to shows or the vet?
Have you seen the everyday operation of a slaughterhouse, or only those snippets the animal right's groups put out, most edited and taken out of context and put forth in their propaganda for shock purposes, not to show how normal the process is, uneventful, there are no struggling and misses and all that drama?

The plain, everyday truth doesn't make good press or incenses certain people to post in forums and donate to the cause, so we don't get to see that.
Just as the everyday good work rescues is rarely mentioned, but have one starve a bunch of horses and it is drama time.

Perspective, use perspective and THINK, before repeating what those with an ulterior goal plants in your minds.

If you really want to debate slaughter itself, I don't think to do so here is germane to the discussion on hand, but be my guest.;)

[Blueshadow]

Well while I don't think this is necessarily the forum for debating slaughter, as Bluey suggests, I for one am DELIGHTED to see the general response from this board's racing enthusiasts to this issue and the rescue of Little Cliff.

[rigoletto]

---

If you really want to debate slaughter itself, I don't think to do so here is germane to the discussion on hand, but be my guest.;)



To debate slaughter here is definitely NOT germane and, frankly, it pisses me off. And as one of the people who helped rescue Little Cliff, I think I am entitled to that opinion. Take the debate to another thread please. This is about Little Cliff, his rescue and the events/issues related to it.

I wish I could say I'm surprised that Preciado claimed another horse for LA Buzz but I'm not. Sheila was defending him in her last post here saying he didn't know where Little Cliff was going. I'm sure that she'll be vigilant with this horse and any that follow. I'm done scratching my head over this. I guess we all have different ideas about what's right and what's wrong, what we're actually responsible for when it comes to caring for our horses, etc... Maybe my standards are just too high.

[rigoletto]

Well while I don't think this is necessarily the forum for debating slaughter, as Bluey suggests, I for one am DELIGHTED to see the general response from this board's racing enthusiasts to this issue and the rescue of Little Cliff.

Good point....