Eric Smiley weighs in.

[pwynnnorman]

Eric Smiley, in the 27 March issue of Horse and Hound, came down on the side of CDs, more or less, laying the blame pretty squarely at the feet of riders and trainers.

Basically, he made three points:

riders aren't taught how to gallop,
horses are too micromanaged down to the jump (he said they "don't take ownership" of the jump 3-4 strides out because of overriding and lack of training /mileage to make them more independent),
and new bit designs (specifically Mylar and Mikmar) are not suited to the sport because they enable the rider to ride without contact too often.I'm curious about the third point because Horse and Hound allowed the bit companies to respond, and each very blatantly ignored (IMO) his point about riding on a loose rein, choosing to focus instead on the mechanics of the bit (which actually reinforced the loose rein point, I thought) and the fact that they aren't as severe on the mouth.

The thing is (and I'd be curious about your perspective on this [B..., if you see this, forgive me for just copying and pasting it into a thread]), the bit companies each made a point of describing how their bits spread pressure over various areas: the nose, the chin, the poll, etc. So, if you DO ride with constant contact, doesn't that mean the horse's whole head is basically being "squeezed" to varying degrees...constantly?

[eqsiu]

So, if you DO ride with constant contact, doesn't that mean the horse's whole head is basically being "squeezed" to varying degrees...constantly?

That is how it seems to me. I don't think the bits are bad, but I imagine that many of the people using them are on unsuitable mounts.

[dirtgirl]

It would certainly seem like it. I wonder if people go for a different bit because they are going for more control (they think) when what they may need is just more flatwork or more gymnastics or just more time in the saddle!

[eqsiu]

I think a better alternative to those bits is a snaffle and a mechanical hackamore(which is what they are supposed to mimic, like a pelham mimicing a double bridle). If the horse needs the whoa, you have the leverage of the hackamore and all the various pressure points, but you can ride on contact with the snaffle and not Surprise your pony with a sudden cue.

[pwynnnorman]

The bit companies did indicate that the ideal way to use the bits is with two, independent reins. But just like pelhams, that must be the rarest of rare techniques (outside of straight dressage) these days: using two reins independently (hence the popularity of the converter straps, of course).

BTW, Smiley found no fault with the companies' snaffle bits.

[bosox]

riders aren't taught how to gallop,
horses are too micromanaged down to the jump (he said they "don't take ownership" of the jump 3-4 strides out because of overriding and lack of training /mileage to make them more independent)

Ok---former show hunter rider here...out BN last year for the first time. My greenbean took a lot of time before he was ready for an actual event. However, I hunted him for two seasons before his event.

Who is going to teach us how to gallop? Where does one go learn this---if today's riders don't know how to do it?

I can say that I have been guilty of telling my horse his spots. I am back w/an event trainer who is making me leave the horse alone and figure it out.
I have been w/2 A grad PCers--1 USET coach--several top ULRs for clinics (and I see these ULRs often--so they know us by name) and local trainers. BUT WHY has not one person given me this advice before last fall? Honestly---I have been bringing this horse along for 5 years now and 3 years of jumping. This is the first that I have heard about---LET HIM figure it out!?

[Janet]

I have been w/2 A grad PCers--1 USET coach--several top ULRs for clinics (and I see these ULRs often--so they know us by name) and local trainers. BUT WHY has not one person given me this advice before last fall? Honestly---I have been bringing this horse along for 5 years now and 3 years of jumping. This is the first that I have heard about---LET HIM figure it out!? Go to a Lucinda Green clinic, or find someone who knows her exercises.

[pwynnnorman]

I have been w/2 A grad PCers--1 USET coach--several top ULRs for clinics (and I see these ULRs often--so they know us by name) and local trainers. BUT WHY has not one person given me this advice before last fall? Honestly---I have been bringing this horse along for 5 years now and 3 years of jumping. This is the first that I have heard about---LET HIM figure it out!?

I received one, somewhat abrupt, response to that: "That's what gymnastics are for." Period. No more said (with the implied, "Well, duh").

Now, I do longe my guys over gymnastics and even longe them at speed down to things, but I sure as heck don't gallop them--like you, I don't have the resources and am overly cautious about the safety of the riders I use. Christan, in fact, told me that Teddy didn't really learn to take the bit and gallop to his fences until he did his first **--he just didn't "get it" until then. And yet I know, of course, that Christan galloped him and that she had, even those years ago, a great feel for pace. But maybe the "consciously teaching the gallop and teaching the independence" (just like you imply, bosox) is what is missing in the experiences of both horses and riders. Maybe trainers have been taking those things for granted. (In some places, that is--I do know Christan, for example, talked about having students gallop set distances as set speeds. I remember even in Pony Club that came up, way back when.)

Kinda like riding a distance, in fact. That's another one of those unspoken fallacies about the majority of riders (especially in h-j land).

[flutie1]

"riders aren't taught how to gallop,
horses are too micromanaged down to the jump (he said they "don't take ownership" of the jump 3-4 strides out because of overriding and lack of training /mileage to make them more independent),
and new bit designs (specifically Mylar and Mikmar) are not suited to the sport because they enable the rider to ride without contact too often."

Yay Eric!!! Right on!

[bosox]

Go to a Lucinda Green clinic, or find someone who knows her exercises

Friends of MPC has hosted L Green for at least 6 years now (b/c I have been w/the club that long and have seen our club reports) but I believe that it is closer to 10 years of hosting her. Even so--both A grads ride w/her everytime she is here.

I guess my point is---I do everything possible to make sure my kids get a wellrounded horse education. If our trainers of today don't know what to look for or teach it---THEN who is going to teach it? Obviously-I thought I had the right idea...Hunt for 2 years before going out to an event.

Pywnn--Yes--I have heard that about gymnastics. Of course-I do gymnastics and ride them correctly. However, while out on course--I tend to want to tell the horse where the spot is. I guess somewhere along the line--one of these trainers who KNOWS my background is hunter would have told me to just LEAVE him alone. THe most I got about the striding right before a fence was to come back down and sit. I even heard this is wrong after watching the Lenyard thread................

[BBowen]

Eric gave a wonderful presentation at the USEA annual meeting on this very subject. When you think about it, especially in suburban areas, it is very hard to find places to really gallop and you have to do that as you move up the levels. So many times, people are getting out on courses with even minimal "out of the ring" riding time.

Depending on where you live, the opportunities to learn cross country skills can be very different.

[Regal Grace]

Go to a Lucinda Green clinic, or find someone who knows her exercises.


And if you cannot get to a Lucinda Green clinic anytime soon....here is a link to Equestrain - Country Channel.TV from the UK. Click on Videos, then click on Eventing and scroll through the selection and look for Cross Country with Lucinda Green. Click on the image and the video should start shortly. There is another nifty one of her training with the London Police Department too.

http://tv.player.countrychannel.tv/skins/0018/nsp.aspx?player=equestrian

[Jazzy Lady]

My horse was a different horse on cross country after doing his long format CCI*.

I gallop lots, but it was doing the steeplechase that taught me and my horse how to gallop properly, in balance, and take a fence out of stride at speed.

Eric just showed what is wrong with the short format.

[fernie fox]

How on earth do you get horses ready for eventing??

Galloping is part of cross country training.;)

How does one get a horse fit to event, without incorporating "galloping" in their fitness programme?.:eek:

I am gobsmacked:D

[pwynnnorman]

fernie, I think it's two-fold:

1. It's inescapable that some folks eventing today don't have access to the resources that prepare them well, including the open spaces to learn and school the gallop...but they still want (and do) event. Should they be stopped? Discouraged? How?

2. Strange as it may seem, folks have testified here often that they just haven't been taught. So Smiley is right: there are some problems with what trainers are teaching (and/or failing to teach). And maybe it's more than "some" problems. Maybe it's become a significant problem, but it's just not possible measure its magnitude.

Many a significant problem goes underestimated due to it being impossible to quantify and thus impossible to verify. Merely anecdotal evidence is easy to ignore or discount, alas.

[vineyridge]

There is hardly an area of the United States that does not have a foxhunt or more.

For years, I've been saying that eventers should try foxhunting to give them and their horses cross country skills and independent thinking skills that come with the sport.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;3147554]fernie, I think it's two-fold:

1. It's inescapable that some folks eventing today don't have access to the resources that prepare them well, including the open spaces to learn and school the gallop...but they still want (and do) event. Should they be stopped? Discouraged? How?

[\QUOTE]


Thats one thing that gets me, everyone wants to be out there competing without the proper preperation. Save your money and use it towards clinics, schooling or trailering somewhere where you can get properly prepared. It makes me so angry when I hear people looking for advice admitting their horse isnt ready or talking about how a show went and say well we had a stop but really I was expecting a lot worse....gahh competing is not a place to be introducing cross-country!

[fernie fox]

There is hardly an area of the United States that does not have a foxhunt or more.

For years, I've been saying that eventers should try foxhunting to give them and their horses cross country skills and independent thinking skills that come with the sport.

Absolutely right.:lol:

Hunting is the best training ground for cross-country.:D

Teaches the horse to think for himself.;)

IMHO if a rider cant handle a couple of hours out hunting..........;)

[ss3777]

"riders aren't taught how to gallop,
horses are too micromanaged down to the jump (he said they "don't take ownership" of the jump 3-4 strides out because of overriding and lack of training /mileage to make them more independent),
and new bit designs (specifically Mylar and Mikmar) are not suited to the sport because they enable the rider to ride without contact too often. "


But how does this address the upper level accidents? I am pretty sure if you are out there riding preliminary you know how to gallop and jump a XC fence safely.

[BillytheKid]

I had a similar experience to Jazzy - doing my first long format 3-day really made things gel for my first upper level horse and resulted in a huge improvement in our ability to gallop with good balance and rhythm on course.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;3147554]fernie, I think it's two-fold:

1. It's inescapable that some folks eventing today don't have access to the resources that prepare them well, including the open spaces to learn and school the gallop...but they still want (and do) event. Should they be stopped? Discouraged? How?

[\QUOTE]


Thats one thing that gets me, everyone wants to be out there competing without the proper preperation. Save your money and use it towards clinics, schooling or trailering somewhere where you can get properly prepared. It makes me so angry when I hear people looking for advice admitting their horse isnt ready or talking about how a show went and say well we had a stop but really I was expecting a lot worse....gahh competing is not a place to be introducing cross-country!

[Fence2Fence]

The lack of open space (and this area has a lot more "open" space than other places), is the very reason that I asked a friend of mine to get me started in fox hunting.

How to learn how to gallop? Go to the race track and gallop the youngins.

Remember Denny's topic about "paying your dues"? Is it just me or are these conversations hitting on the same topics? I think the answers to the problems in our sport aren't just one individual or one group; in part, we are all responsible.

Now, bringing the bit companies into the mix was quite a surprise!

[Hannahsmom]

fernie, I think it's two-fold:

1. It's inescapable that some folks eventing today don't have access to the resources that prepare them well, including the open spaces to learn and school the gallop...but they still want (and do) event. Should they be stopped? Discouraged? How?

2. Strange as it may seem, folks have testified here often that they just haven't been taught. So Smiley is right: there are some problems with what trainers are teaching (and/or failing to teach). And maybe it's more than "some" problems. Maybe it's become a significant problem, but it's just not possible measure its magnitude.

Many a significant problem goes underestimated due to it being impossible to quantify and thus impossible to verify. Merely anecdotal evidence is easy to ignore or discount, alas.

Many years ago I had instructers who would actually have lessons on galloping and learned the 'feel'. At that time I had the luxury of several hundred acres of rolling pasture to ride on. That's gone now. But I still think those were great lessons.

[Meredith Clark]

I went out into a big open field to do "trot sets" as part of a fitness program for my OTTB (who's currently competing at negitive beg. novice!) we were doing our trotting and had a nice warm up and I realized I couldn't remember the last time i'd galloped. I didn't even know how it felt. I knew how a collected trot felt, how a good canter approach to a jump felt, but not a nice open gallop.

So i let him!

It proly wasn't a great idea since he's only a month off the track, we were alone, and he goes in a double jointed loose ring happy mouth... but whatever.. he did great and we both enjoyed it SO MUCH!

Obvioulsy we're not going to be galloping our Elem courses or whatever i start him at, but it was a good experience for both of us, and thats all that matters.

[Debbie]

Amen Jealoushe! One thing I've taken away from all of this discussion about safety and rider preparation is that I won't be competing my young horses any time soon. Instead I'll be spending my time and $$ getting them out to the local hunts, riding out and taking lessons. I suspect in 2 years or so I'll know my horses' abilities well enough and my own to make the BN, N levels an easy challenge without ever entering an event. (I can be a guinea pig in this regard and will report back! :lol:)

Perhaps this is an area where growth for the sake of growth has created problems for the sport. Can you make it too accessible for aspiring, but not yet capable, riders? On another thread I had the unpopular opionion of saying that canter should be required in the dressage tests for all levels at unrecognized events (those that have 18" divisions). This was what I was trying to get at, by making competing too accessible at even the most intro level we're setting up a mindset that skips fundamental training and acquistion of skills in the name of getting out there and competing.

That still doesn't address the deaths/injuries/accidents at the UL, but it does begin to create a climate that insists on preparedness BEFORE competition.

[Jealoushe]

thank god I am not alone.

I will rip my hair out if I hear anymore "does this event have a (ditch, bank, corner, stone wall etc whatever) because I have never jumped one and my horse is green and we are just going out to have fun.

or "I plan on trotting the whole course will I get eliminated?" etc etc

Why are people wasting their money competing when they could be becoming better riders at clinics and in lessons!

[CookiePony]

"riders aren't taught how to gallop,
horses are too micromanaged down to the jump (he said they "don't take ownership" of the jump 3-4 strides out because of overriding and lack of training /mileage to make them more independent),
and new bit designs (specifically Mylar and Mikmar) are not suited to the sport because they enable the rider to ride without contact too often. "


But how does this address the upper level accidents? I am pretty sure if you are out there riding preliminary you know how to gallop and jump a XC fence safely.

This is my question too.

ETA-- most of our high-profile accidents have happened to experienced eventers.

[Sandy M]

There is hardly an area of the United States that does not have a foxhunt or more.

For years, I've been saying that eventers should try foxhunting to give them and their horses cross country skills and independent thinking skills that come with the sport.

Uh. yeah. But I can't afford to belong to a hunt... and guesting once or twice isn't going to give you enough experience.....

[fernie fox]

That will certainly make a difference to you and your horse.;)

[FlightCheck]

Interesting...

From the beginning of the FatPaintMare's training, we have gotten her TO the XC fence, and let her alone to find a spot and jump from it.

Last year I took A lesson (yes, just 1) from a VERY ULT/R who wanted me to manage every stride between XC fences - and I mean every stride. If there were 22 strides on a bending line between logs, then by God there should be 22 because the horse should listen to ME.

I did the lesson, thanked the person, and did not go back. This obviously works for them, as they have RiddenForTheirCountry, but not for us.

I LOVED Mr. Smiley's speech at the convention last December.

[LLDM]

thank god I am not alone.

I will rip my hair out if I hear anymore "does this event have a (ditch, bank, corner, stone wall etc whatever) because I have never jumped one and my horse is green and we are just going out to have fun.

or "I plan on trotting the whole course will I get eliminated?" etc etc

Why are people wasting their money competing when they could be becoming better riders at clinics and in lessons!

Oh goodie - you can be the eventing police.

I mean really - this is the US culture, so you should hardly be surprised that this is how people learn. And really, just WHO IS telling them they can't?

I don't think tadpole HT's are the root of all evil. This is how many people are introduced to the sport. Jumping an 18" log and coop isn't causing accidents at the upper levels.

I really do understand what you are saying. BUT. What you are describing - the whole thread is describing - is HOLES in the RIDER's education. And that is a whole other kettle of fish.

SCFarm

[deltawave]

And it's entirely possible now to go right on up to the Advanced level without ever once having ridden over fences at real speed, such as what you would do on steeplechase. Where're those band-aids? The sport has shot itself in the foot yet again. :(

[fernie fox]

I realize that Accidents do happen.

But I truly believe that the new Technical,tricky courses are the main problem.

Lumping skinnies and verticals into groups[mainly for spectator pleasure] is not good course building.:eek:

I hate to say this ,but reading this thread makes me wonder why folks are competing ,when they dont even know how to gallop and rate their horses at speed.

This thread has been an eye opener for me.:eek:

[fernie fox]

I think that my cart horse and I may embark on a few Tadpole events just for fun this autumn.:D


I will feel comfy at that level after a 20+ year break from eventing.:D

Will probably have to retire to bed for a week afterwards.:D

[PhoenixFarm]

CookiePony and ss--I'm actually going to disagree that this is an issue at the lower levels and not the upper. I have seen many upper level riders who "show jump" the xc--that is, they gallop like heck in between the jumps, and then bring the horse down to a sub zero canter and micromanage the last ten strides of the fence, and then land and boot the horse off again.

I'm also going to come full circle with this and bring it back a bit to the wheelhouse of CD's--because courses that are technical combinations scattered in groups around a property encourage this kind of mad-dash-to-show-jump type of riding.

I'm also going to interject here about the learning to gallop issue. I'm a suburban kid from Northern California. Until I left home, my horses were always boarded out and I learned to ride in a controlled program. HOWEVER, I too remeber having "galloping lessons" we didn't exactly have wide open spaces (try a ten acre back field that was also the main turnout) but distances were marked off and we learned the feel of different speeds and balances. I also remember having lessons int he ring where you weren't exactly galloping, BUT we had to hold our two-point for 20 to 30 minutes at a time. Or jump without stirrups. Or, have our stirrups jacked up to jockey lnegth amd canter around until we were crying.

Now, are my galloping "instincts" as sharp and natural as that of my husband who grew up foxhunting and was a steeplechase jockey? No, and I wouldn't pretend otherwise, but I do think I can hold my own in respectable company--I do know how to gallop in a two point, and I know how to balance a horse at speed.

So there is a way.

[kt-rose]

This all reminds me of a moment in my jumping lesson two weeks ago on my young horse -- he's just 5, he'll do BN/N this year. We are working on a course, he's being really good but I find us cross cantering down the long side to a tight turn to a sizeable (for us :winkgrin: ) two stride combination. Before I have a chance to trot and fix his lead, my trainer yells to ride forward, it's his problem, let him sort it out. So I do. As we keep cantering I can feel my horse thinking "she's going to fix this, I know she's going to fix this" and when I just sat down and rode him into the turn he went "Oh s***, she's not going to fix this" Being a smart boy, he fixed the lead and nailed the combination and was utterly thrilled with himself. He's green but the jumps are his job and I do like to try and make it 'pretty' but he is in charge of his feet and being smart enough to put them where they belong. A winter of gymnastics has done it's job.

Ok, sorry for the interruption, back to the subject at hand :) !!!

[eqsiu]

thank god I am not alone.

I will rip my hair out if I hear anymore "does this event have a (ditch, bank, corner, stone wall etc whatever) because I have never jumped one and my horse is green and we are just going out to have fun.

That is ridiculous. If you're going to go to an event, at least go school once before you do. Even in an 18" unrecognized division. I firmly believe that every level should have a pass through water, a tiny bank, and a ditch. If the jumps are 18", well, the ditch and bank should be small.


or "I plan on trotting the whole course will I get eliminated?" etc etc

Why are people wasting their money competing when they could be becoming better riders at clinics and in lessons!

I wouldn't mind trotting in unrecognized divisions. I am hoping to take my filly in a restricted BN division this fall, and even though I plan on schooling the course several times and trail ride extensively (including hand galloping over varied terrain) this summer I feel it is appropriate to trot at that level if she gets squirrelly.

[Debbie]

I think there are 2 very different schools of thought about the skill sets needed to excel at eventing. Read http://www.craigthompsoneventing.com/downloads/coth-feb-2008.pdf Craig Thompson's article about eventing and his perspective of the "the cultural sea change" needed by riders today. Then compare it to the largely ammy viewpoints on this thread. It's like we're talking about 2 different sports.

I always learned the seemingly old-school theory of you control pace and steering and your horse figures out the jump. My trainers of 10 years ago hunted their young event horses regularly to "help them find their 5th leg" across country. I think the changes in the sport and the establishment of professional event barns has changed this model. Now that young horses with talent are priced at $25K and up and there are events practically every weekend, there's no time or interest in hunting them AND the courses have changed to demand more "management" throughout the course.

There are holes both in rider skill sets and for the horse that is trained to wait for direction versus having them learn to respond to the questions independently.

[abrownhorse]

1. A good eventer does not always a foxhunter make.

Foxhunting does expose your horse to galloping, teaches you to ride in balance and develop your (and your horses) sense of self preservation. I'm a huge fan of hunting. BUT, not every event horse has the wherewithall (spelling?) to hunt. It can be quite a mental thing for the pony. So, yes it does simulate the cross-country phase of eventing in some ways, but galloping in a pack, jumping in a group, and listening to the hounds can completely unnerve even the best horse.

2. Regarding "school, school, school XC" before going to a competition.

Yes, you need to know how to gallop. Yes, you need to know how to jump out of stride. But doesn't schooling the course prior to the competition take away something from our sport? Isn't our sport supposed to test the bravery of our horses and their trust in the rider to a degree? (not talking chickens, cheese wedges & mice here...just the straightforward common XC questions) Yes, I believe that you need to be prepared before competing, but with the limited exposure to cross-country courses, why is it wrong to enter an event with the thought that this run XC is about education of the horse/rider? Entering a horse trial is not necessarily the same as competing in one.

[Speedy]

2. Regarding "school, school, school XC" before going to a competition.

Yes, you need to know how to gallop. Yes, you need to know how to jump out of stride. But doesn't schooling the course prior to the competition take away something from our sport? Isn't our sport supposed to test the bravery of our horses and their trust in the rider to a degree? (not talking chickens, cheese wedges & mice here...just the straightforward common XC questions) Yes, I believe that you need to be prepared before competing, but with the limited exposure to cross-country courses, why is it wrong to enter an event with the thought that this run XC is about education of the horse/rider? Entering a horse trial is not necessarily the same as competing in one.

It's not about schooling the competition course, it is about schooling the questions appropriate for the level on non-competition courses, so that you are capable of answering the questions on the competition course. IMHO, you should not go to a competition hoping to get your green horse across a ditch for the first time...you should do that at home with your instructor to optimize the success and confidence of both the horse and the rider...

I do agree, though, that there is something to be learned about *how to compete* at a competition.

[ss3777]

OK, I am sure that there is a percentage (at all levels) of riders and horses that need to learn how to gallop or gallop better and riders need to learn how to learn XC jumping in addition to "show jumping". Probably a challenge for most event riders everywhere throughout the ages.

My concern is that while focusing on improving the above challenge, the following does not get "lost"

"Bruce went on to opine that courses today at every level are, "just not right. There is too much pulling and jerking. You have to gallop full-out to a series of jerky combinations," and then repeat this all the way around. "Because fences are being placed as they are, horses aren't able to focus on what they should be focusing on. Blind turns, sharp corners. Horses have to see what they are going to jump."

[quietann]

"Bruce went on to opine that courses today at every level are, "just not right. There is too much pulling and jerking. You have to gallop full-out to a series of jerky combinations," and then repeat this all the way around. "Because fences are being placed as they are, horses aren't able to focus on what they should be focusing on. Blind turns, sharp corners. Horses have to see what they are going to jump."

Just a smurf here, but this comment seems spot-on after seeing the video of Beth Murphy riding Tantibes through that tricky set at Red Hills. With those jumps set as they were (close together, weird bending lines, etc.) there was not a way to "let the horse figure it out from 3 or 4 strides out." Sometimes there were barely that many strides between fences anyway, and a horse with "good sense" might run past that weird-looking fence coming up so quickly over to the side, and aim for the more logical but incorrect fence 8 straight strides away.

[Jealoushe]

It's not about schooling the competition course, it is about schooling the questions appropriate for the level on non-competition courses, so that you are capable of answering the questions on the competition course. IMHO, you should not go to a competition hoping to get your green horse across a ditch for the first time...you should do that at home with your instructor to optimize the success and confidence of both the horse and the rider...

I do agree, though, that there is something to be learned about *how to compete* at a competition.

and I do agree...but *how to ride in open spaces and approach new types of fences and get over them* is NOT something to be learnt at competition

edited to add....if I get to be the eventing police, do I get a special badge or something?? :D

[Dawnd]

But how does this address the upper level accidents? I am pretty sure if you are out there riding preliminary you know how to gallop and jump a XC fence safely.

That's exactly what crossed my mind - the problem doesn't necessarily lie with us bottom feeders so why always the knee-jerk that it's improper training?

Are only name brand ULR's making the news/media/BB's when they end up on a gurney?

By sheer numbers if training really is the problem, we'd be dropping like flies at BN/Novice level.

[Jealoushe]

so its not training at the lower levels, maybe its the training at the ULs???

[Debbie]

I think there likely is a correlation to these issues and some of the accidents at the ULs. Folks aren't dropping like flies at BN & N because the courses are so forgiving in terms of height and speed has not yet entered the equation. So some folks new to the ULs have not yet developed the appropriate skills to match their "progress" up the levels.

What the discussions of acquiring skills and requiring qualifications always leave out are situations like Darren's and Ralph's and others who were emminently qualified to ride successfully at the ULs.

There is no one simple, silver bullet solution. There needs to be more analysis of all the elements of the system to decide where the failure(s) are and develop a comprehensive strategy that may include many of the aspects discussed on this thread and elsewhere. Doesn't mean we shouldn't mull any one aspect over here.

[poltroon]

I would agree that it sounds like the loss of steeplechase could be a factor for horses and riders not learning to jump at speed.

Here in California, I know there are a couple of hunts but I'm not sure any of them would prepare one well for galloping or eventing.

Even though we have cross-country courses, when I was learning to event in California it was difficult to find places where we could go to gallop on decent footing without jumping anything. Courses here tend to be very path-oriented, not really giving you a big open field where you can just let loose and gallop around the perimeter. If there is a perimeter, the footing is probably rock hard. There are places around, but they're not necessarily the cross-country schooling courses - and they always involved hauling 3+ hours. It was a long time before I hooked up with someone who had a dirt track on a mild slope and I really had a chance to get it.

Kind of different from the daily fooling around in a field at speed.

Speaking of which, my pony and my 20 acres beckon. I think today is a good day for a gallop!

[Janet]

It has always been possible to do an Advanced HT without ever doing steeplechase.

[TB or not TB?]

Regarding the death toll,

Prelim has the highest number of fatalities in the past 10 years.
Int. and Adv. are quite high as well but Prelim still takes the cake.
2 deaths at T, 1 at N, none at BN.

[seeuatx]

Wow, I completely agree with his comments.

Maybe I am simply waxing poetic about my teen years, but what ever happened to just going out for a ride with friends, and just letting them rip? That's how I learned to gallop. We were educated enough to not be completely stupid, but we weren't afraid of the speed either. I still remember that first time.... wow.

I also had a trainer that would throw me up on a retired prelim campaigner who trucked his owner around novice, and she would take her Int. horse and we would go do trot sets, and gallop. I learned the difference between 350m/m and 500m/m (never did get the courage to go 600, lol), I learned to rate for the horse next to me, and learned to handle any exuberance out in the open.

As for letting the horses do their job, it is something I still work on, but it is a necessary tool. It is not easy, but I try to remember that they can get their feet out of their own way better than I can do it for them. They need 3 tools to work with that we are responsible for.... straight, rhythm, balance.... everything else is up to them.

But these are all reasons why going clean 2 times is not always enough for everyone. Most horses could go out BN, and get around clean twice without much extra training. They might even make it around N. But Training level or Prelim?

I think it relates to what we do at home with them. As others said, it is not just about the # of starts. Clinics and schoolings are just as important if not more so. In other words rider A shows every 3 weeks, schools occasionally, moves up from BN to T in a year. Rider B shows 2-3x's per year, plus multiple clinics, schoolings and lessons. In 2 years moves from BN to T. Now, rider A moved from BN to T with 16 total starts.... Rider B moves up with 6 total.... yet rider B will be just as prepared, if not more so than rider A. Just my own humble opinion anyhow.

[LLDM]

and I do agree...but *how to ride in open spaces and approach new types of fences and get over them* is NOT something to be learnt at competition

edited to add....if I get to be the eventing police, do I get a special badge or something?? :D

I will make you a badge - because, honestly, I don't think it's a bad idea!

Seriously - here is the deal - a local low level trainer who has what seems like 8000 beginner riders and chases local points. Every once and a while decides to take a bunch of these kids to a starter trials. Things don't go great, so they don't go again for a while. Some of these kids do fall off - but not any more than they do in the local starter hunter shows. Some of them do get hooked and go on to a real eventing barn or Pony Club. Most go back to the same old program/local short stirrup classes.

This, my friends IS WHERE EVENTERS COME FROM! Yes, you should be afraid. Not all of them, but many start this way. And at 18" it isn't fatal.

The question in my mind is what to do with them once we GET them! What kind of low level programs do we offer? What benchmarks? What standards of riding, grooming, management, common sense?

I just got into a Lucinda clinic - a last minute cancellation. So what level do I tell them I ride? THERE IS NO STANDARD. Until we have one, the holes will stay with us as we go up the levels - until we rise to our level of incompetence. Hopefully it won't be fatal for us or our horses.

It USED TO BE that eventing was small enough that we could just manage to the problem. The bigger it gets the less likely one is taken aside and had things "explained" to them. (i.e. "you need to learn how to gallop before you go this level again" OR "Your students are just not prepared for competition yet").

As mentioned earlier a handicap or a rating or a "gate card" of some type ain't the worst idea in the world. Maybe the time has come.

The problem is fatal at the top, but starts at the bottom. We are allowing the holes to exist on the move ups.

All IMHO, as usual.

SCFarm

[imapepper]

This all reminds me of a moment in my jumping lesson two weeks ago on my young horse -- he's just 5, he'll do BN/N this year. We are working on a course, he's being really good but I find us cross cantering down the long side to a tight turn to a sizeable (for us :winkgrin: ) two stride combination. Before I have a chance to trot and fix his lead, my trainer yells to ride forward, it's his problem, let him sort it out. So I do. As we keep cantering I can feel my horse thinking "she's going to fix this, I know she's going to fix this" and when I just sat down and rode him into the turn he went "Oh s***, she's not going to fix this" Being a smart boy, he fixed the lead and nailed the combination and was utterly thrilled with himself. He's green but the jumps are his job and I do like to try and make it 'pretty' but he is in charge of his feet and being smart enough to put them where they belong. A winter of gymnastics has done it's job.

Ok, sorry for the interruption, back to the subject at hand :) !!!

Exactly :) I like to make sure my horse is balanced and give her the best opportunity with a good approach but the take off spot (for the most part) is her job. I want her to think for herself and be able to handle a distance that isn't perfect....because goodness knows...I am not perfect :winkgrin:

[pwynnnorman]

FYI, here's more of what he said/wrote:


But two groups of people -- riders and trainers -- are lagging behind and failing to improve.

I am deeply concerned by the gap in understanding of the key issues.There are more opportunities to train than ever, but more training doesn't mean better training. Nor does it mean more understanding.

Of course, it is the rider's responsibility to prepare themselves. But if you dno't know what's wrong, then how can you prepare?


Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with the rise of the professional eventer. I think the profession itself is having growing pains as various models of what one does to make a go of it are tried, tested, tweaked, trumped, tossed aside, etc. There's a lot of uncharted territory there, including how you oversee the progress of the new type of student your profession may be starting to attract.

I mean, how many riders 20 years ago flew to Europe on event horse buying trips for their students? I know top riders got made horses for their owners and themselves, but this phenomena of getting that kind of horse for someone to learn from or qualify on or whatever--that's relatively new. (As is my broken-record sentiment involving the sheer number of horses pros are now riding in the same competition.)

But the pros aren't into examining ad nauseum every little detail of what they do or how they do it--some probably don't have a lot of time for introspection. Most are reactive, not proactive about their businesses and the characteristics of the profession that influence them, I suspect.

I keep going back in my mind to what Phillip Dutton said when he was riding a lot of horses, when he said he was cutting back. I can't remember when or where I read that, but I remember it really striking me as an interesting development, back then.

[Xanthoria]

Eric Smiley: horses are too micromanaged down to the jump (he said they "don't take ownership" of the jump 3-4 strides out because of overriding and lack of training /mileage to make them more independent)

Only since moving to the USA have I ever heard of people counting strides obsessively and "finding their spot." In the UK we learned to get the horse to the jump at the right speed, and let them do the jumping.

One can only place the blame with hunter showing in the USA, as that's where most riders here get their start jumping. More real field hunting would certainly fix that...

[vali]

I agree about the hunting. My NZ bred gelding, who did Intermediate before I got him and bored him with Prelim, was not a horse you wanted to take hunting. Hell, you didn't even really want to take him schooling in a group, since all he really wanted to do was go and jump a bunch of really big jumps. Smart catty jumper, especially if he thought the jump or combination was interesting enough to warrant his attention, but hated to stand around. Now that he's seventeen my mother has him, and she made the mistake of taking him on a drag hunt this winter. I think they heard "Whoahh" as she sailed past the huntmaster. She hasn't tried that again.

With younger horses I agree that it would be insane to take them to an event if they had never seen a ditch or water, and I also agree that it makes sense to let them figure out how to sort themselves out over smaller fences and gymnastics. Especially if they will have a junior or amateur rider, they need to know how to take care of themselves.

[subk]

horses are too micromanaged down to the jump (he said they "don't take ownership" of the jump 3-4 strides out because of overriding and lack of training /mileage to make them more independent)
Question:
Does anybody else think there might be a correlation between higher and higher standards for dressage and this point? Aren't the better dressage horses the same ones who tend to tolerate being micro-managed on every stride?

[JER]

Question:
Does anybody else think there might be a correlation between higher and higher standards for dressage and this point? Aren't the better dressage horses the same ones who tend to tolerate being micro-managed on every stride?

Yes.

And I think it goes deeper than that. I think our expectation for dressage scores has changed. I remember a day when 40 wasn't considered an abomination at all.

It's much, much easier to work with a naturally obedient horse. You 'll get better dressage scores, you'll move up the levels faster. But there's a point where having a horse that will try to jump whatever is in front of him can have grave consequences on XC.

I personally believe the best horse for XC is not a horse whose first instinct is obedience. But it takes time to work with this kind of horse and the rider can't get discouraged easily. You're probably not going to get this horse to the YEH competitions and you're not going to win at Novice or even Training.

I think hunting is great for event horses but I agree that not all eventers will make good field hunters. (Some of those make good whip horses, however.) You have to treat hunting as seriously as any other discipline when breaking in a new horse. It takes time, patience and courage. Out hunting, a horse learns to look after himself. The rider learns not to micromanage because it's just not possible in the hunt field.

[Debbie]

From the USCTA Book of Eventing, page 66, quoting Jack Le Goff:

"One thing I have learned is that you do not want to push event horses to too high a level of dressage. In the upper levels of dressage, the haute ecole, one demands complete obedience and the horses must obey the will of the rider instantly. By insisting on such performance, one takes away the initiative of the horse. ... Such training is not good for an event horse, who must be free to make some degree of decision for itself at times."

I suspect UL riders/coaches of today would say that was then and this is now. Read Craig's article posted in an earlier link - not maligning Craig in any way; I think he's just expressing the current realities of success in the sport. Today's event horse is expected to be a different animal from those of years past and to accept being ridden every stride. My concern would be does that create the unfortunate consequence of only one part of the partnership reading the question and having to respond correctly?

Knowing how many times generous horses have saved my bacon, I kinda prefer them to have input...

[lbgreen]

So, I agree with the previous posts that say galloping steeplechase REALLY helps. I have one of those ironman watch things, and had really worked to get a sense for different speeds. But it wasn't until I did my half star last year that I really got a sense for jumping out of that galloping speed. When I galloped around that steeple chase track and looked at my watch and said, HEY, I'm going to MAKE IT! Really no experience like that for this very wimpy adult amateur. That was one of my suggestions to Kevin re: the gap between training and prelim. It'd be GREAT if the half star were really encouraged for moving up.

My OTTB has really bad feet and hunting around here over the rocky terrain just isn't worth the risk. (not to mention that I can't justify the time away from my family when I already compete seriously at eventing...)

Agree that schooling is key at the lower levels. Agree that the technicality of the UL courses do make jumping out of stride difficult. I'm lucky to ride in AREA VIII where I've so far only found lovely galloping courses at prelim...

(hum, that was my first attempt at a more serious topic, hope I did ok...)

[pwynnnorman]

I personally believe the best horse for XC is not a horse whose first instinct is obedience. But it takes time to work with this kind of horse and the rider can't get discouraged easily. You're probably not going to get this horse to the YEH competitions and you're not going to win at Novice or even Training.



Wow, JER, how well put and a really, really interesting observation. Real food for thought.

[shea'smom]

Quietann, that's is what I was thinking. How the heck could that rider let the horse figure things out from 4 strides back! that was the most absurd " XC" group of fences I have ever seen.

[annikak]

Yes.


I personally believe the best horse for XC is not a horse whose first instinct is obedience. But it takes time to work with this kind of horse and the rider can't get discouraged easily. You're probably not going to get this horse to the YEH competitions and you're not going to win at Novice or even Training.

I think hunting is great for event horses but I agree that not all eventers will make good field hunters. (Some of those make good whip horses, however.) You have to treat hunting as seriously as any other discipline when breaking in a new horse. It takes time, patience and courage. Out hunting, a horse learns to look after himself. The rider learns not to micromanage because it's just not possible in the hunt field.

Boy- perfect. I totally agree with everything- but never thought of it that way. I was riding in a PC lesson (ah, the benefits of having the meetings at my house!) and JAGold said...you will never do well at Nov or Training with him, but he will be a blast prelim or Intermediate. I get that now- and I totally think that the dressage is sometimes not a benefit to having a horse think for themselves. I did however, take my opinionated Home Bred TB hunting- he needed to think forward, and it did help. Not a fun horse to hunt, honestly, but this past season has done a lot for him.

Someone mentioned riding in the UK- I was lucky enough to take a trip to Tony Hills farm, and boy, there is a difference. Now, I am old, but...maybe that is why the YR's do so well, the do let their horses jump.

[CookiePony]

Regarding the death toll,

Prelim has the highest number of fatalities in the past 10 years.
Int. and Adv. are quite high as well but Prelim still takes the cake.
2 deaths at T, 1 at N, none at BN.

TB, thanks for this info. What percentages re starters do your numbers represent?

[ksbadger]

Several people have wondered about Eric's remarks and their relevance to recent UL incidents. IIRC the first time this comment about "micro-managing our horses" came up it was by Lucinda Green in a Telegraph commentary after the series of British rotational falls in the early 2000's. Beleive she happily admits that she can't see distances but it's not her job - that the horse's.

Incidently her one comment on last year's European Eventing Championships was that many riders seemed to have forgotten how to ride a simple coffin canter....

[TB or not TB?]

TB, thanks for this info. What percentages re starters do your numbers represent?

That I don't have. Forgot to mention though, the number of Prelim deaths was between 12 and 14 (I can't find the level at which Keith Taylor and Amanda Warrington were competing when they were killed). That's a significant jump over the T level deaths.

[Kementari]

You know, I'm struck by something here: everyone has jumped on the "people don't learn to gallop" bandwagon, yet over and over again on this very board, BN and N riders are told that they DON'T need to learn to gallop. Um...ya can't have it both ways. Either it's important (in which case it's ridiculous to only start to learn it once you get to the level where things start getting dangerous) or it's not.

I'm a proud LL smurf, and I didn't event until I was comfortable at speed, could rate my horse up and down, and had enough confidence to let go of my horse's face while doing all that. Now, I've done (also LL) gymkhana for years, which helps more than you'd think at first glance, and I was one of those kids who grew up racing across the fields, so I've been very comfortable with simply galloping (sans fences ;)) and rating for a long time. I've never jumped at steeplechase speed (though once or twice it's felt like it... :lol:), but I HAVE schooled - and more than once or twice - at a solidly four beat gait, shall we say. And people have told me TO MY FACE that I was overpreparing for the lower levels. (I belong to the school of thought that it's very hard to be OVERprepared for most anything, but that's not the point at the moment. ;))

So which is it? Do we need to learn to gallop or not? Or is this another one of those "but the lower levels don't count" things? :sigh:

(For the record, I agree with all three of Eric Smiley's points, though I think that the design of our courses is encouraging those training flaws, and is not blameless.)

[Foxtrot's]

Get out of the arena and go hunting. Jack LeGoff used to say much the same about micro-managing the ride and jump. He even said horses should not be schooled higher than Medium because it took away their ability to think. They learn to take care of themselves in moment of crisis when the rider cannot.

[Janet]

You know, I'm struck by something here: everyone has jumped on the "people don't learn to gallop" bandwagon, yet over and over again on this very board, BN and N riders are told that they DON'T need to learn to gallop. Um...ya can't have it both ways. Either it's important (in which case it's ridiculous to only start to learn it once you get to the level where things start getting dangerous) or it's not.

...
So which is it? Do we need to learn to gallop or not? Or is this another one of those "but the lower levels don't count" things? :sigh:
I haven't seen people say "you don't need to know how to gallop". Both horse and rider DO need to learn how to gallop.

What I see people saying (and I agree) is that you don't need to do CONDITIONING gallops for BN and N.

[Kementari]

I'm too tired to look up direct quotes (I know that's obnoxious, but it's true! :o), but I do remember, among other things, a thread a couple of weeks ago where some specifically advocated lowering the mpms for all levels, to the point where one would trot BN to make time. That's definitely NOT encouraging people to learn to gallop! ;)

[pwynnnorman]

I'm too tired to look up direct quotes (I know that's obnoxious, but it's true! :o), but I do remember, among other things, a thread a couple of weeks ago where some specifically advocated lowering the mpms for all levels, to the point where one would trot BN to make time. That's definitely NOT encouraging people to learn to gallop! ;)

Perhaps, beneath that particular argument but unstated, was the idea that it isn't necessarily the speed of the gallop that, initially (at the lower levels), is important--but rather the feeling for pace, control and balance over varying terrain. Most (but no, not all) of the challenges faced at the hand gallop are the same as those at the 500+ mpm gallop, except they don't happen as fast.

BTW, about the falls, I thought in that article Smiley noted how most of the falls has happened over isolated fences in open fields. I couldn't find the actual statement, so maybe he didn't actually say that--but someone somewhere did. Should that be taken into account by those (here in this discussion) who are considering the statistics of accidents? Perhaps the context is as important as--or even more important than--the numbers.

[Atigirl]

You know, I'm struck by something here: everyone has jumped on the "people don't learn to gallop" bandwagon, yet over and over again on this very board, BN and N riders are told that they DON'T need to learn to gallop. Um...ya can't have it both ways. Either it's important (in which case it's ridiculous to only start to learn it once you get to the level where things start getting dangerous) or it's not.



So which is it? Do we need to learn to gallop or not? Or is this another one of those "but the lower levels don't count" things? :sigh:

(For the record, I agree with all three of Eric Smiley's points, though I think that the design of our courses is encouraging those training flaws, and is not blameless.)


I believe and have been taught that at the lower levels you practice at a canter (bigger canter then a dressage one). You practice lengthen and shorten strides and still having an elastic top line to your horse. Not just kicking and pulling. When you can consistantly keep the horse balanced and in front of your leg and its back is elastic then you can work on increasing the speed. Some horses (TB) have a natural gallop, but green ones aren't very balanced and you have to work on balance and having the elastic top line. A unbalanced horse asked to go faster is just going to run fast and flat, not a gallop.

[Janet]

I'm too tired to look up direct quotes (I know that's obnoxious, but it's true! :o), but I do remember, among other things, a thread a couple of weeks ago where some specifically advocated lowering the mpms for all levels, to the point where one would trot BN to make time. That's definitely NOT encouraging people to learn to gallop! ;)
Agreed that SOMEONE said that. But I think that recommendation came from someone who was not very experienced in eventing. And most of the experienced eventers (even the "30 years at Training" ones) strongly disagreed.

[JER]

Quietann, that's is what I was thinking. How the heck could that rider let the horse figure things out from 4 strides back! that was the most absurd " XC" group of fences I have ever seen.

What does this mean for the concept of 'honesty' in horses.

Remember what an honest horse is? We always tested for this when horse shopping. You'd ride the horse to the fence with reasonable strength, see how he jumped. Then you'd give the horse a so-so but still reasonably good ride to the fence and see what he does. If you've given him a decent ride and he jumps, he's honest. You've done your job, you get him to the fence, it's up to him what to do next. If he stops or runs out, you may have an honesty issue on your hands. (Bill Steinkraus discussed this at length in his books but he was writing about showjumping, not XC.)

Then we'd give a weakish ride to a fence, rider acting a bit ineffectual-to-clueless. What does the horse do at the jump? A sharp, sudden stop or a careful, quiet stop/run out or does he just jump boldly anyway. If you want a horse who's a packer or takes care of the rider, the horse that jumps boldly no matter what is not your ideal horse and neither is the sharp stopper. The point is, a horse that takes care of the rider also knows when and how not to go.

A course like Red Hills -- as seen in the video -- doesn't reward the honest horse. It's geared toward the horse that just jumps whatever is in front of him. You couldn't settle into a rhythm and let the horse figure out the jumps. There's no real way for the horse to independently assess which jumps to jump or what the jumps are.

It's ok to have one or two instances when the horse has to trust the rider. But this is not the nature of the XC partnership. And it doesn't give the horse a chance to show his honesty.

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=JER;3149883]
A course like Red Hills -- as seen in the video -- doesn't reward the honest horse. It's geared toward the horse that just jumps whatever is in front of him. You couldn't settle into a rhythm and let the horse figure out the jumps. There's no real way for the horse to independently assess which jumps to jump or what the jumps are.
QUOTE]


:)

[PhoenixFarm]

P

BTW, about the falls, I thought in that article Smiley noted how most of the falls has happened over isolated fences in open fields. I couldn't find the actual statement, so maybe he didn't actually say that--but someone somewhere did. Should that be taken into account by those (here in this discussion) who are considering the statistics of accidents? Perhaps the context is as important as--or even more important than--the numbers.

But I think there does need to be some context to those type of statistics--becuase those "straightforward tables in the middle of nowhere" become a whole lot less straightforward on a mentally and physically fatigued horse whose had his teeth floated at the 15 trappy, technical combinatins before the "easy" one. If he's been placed to the deep one very purposefully by a rider the previous ten jumps, and then the rider two points at speed down to the table because its 'easy" I don't think it's difficult to see how a horse could become confused and make a mistake.

[pwynnnorman]

But I think there does need to be some context to those type of statistics--becuase those "straightforward tables in the middle of nowhere" become a whole lot less straightforward on a mentally and physically fatigued horse whose had his teeth floated at the 15 trappy, technical combinatins before the "easy" one. If he's been placed to the deep one very purposefully by a rider the previous ten jumps, and then the rider two points at speed down to the table because its 'easy" I don't think it's difficult to see how a horse could become confused and make a mistake.

Ah, yes, I see. You're definitely onto something there. I hadn't thought about it that way.

[Sandy M]

That will certainly make a difference to you and your horse.;)

FWIW, I hunted my old eventer twice as a guest... and then was very specifically asked to either join or not guest again for at least a year.

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=JER;3149883]
A course like Red Hills -- as seen in the video -- doesn't reward the honest horse. It's geared toward the horse that just jumps whatever is in front of him. You couldn't settle into a rhythm and let the horse figure out the jumps. There's no real way for the horse to independently assess which jumps to jump or what the jumps are.
[QUOTE]


:)


Here is a tidbit that may smoke your minds:

The study I posted on my other thread suggested that the fewer refusals and the less likely a horse will refuse, the more likely they will have a fall on course. Maybe a go getter at all cost horse is NOT the best eventer.

Reed

[TB or not TB?]

Ah, yes, I see. You're definitely onto something there. I hadn't thought about it that way.

It was CMP who stated that. I agree with Phoenix Farm - most of the jumps were at least half way through the course or in many cases, right near the end.

However, what CMP also does not address is that the fences were not necessarily "straightforward" even though they were not combinations. Most were big square tables.

[ss3777]

Here is a tidbit that may smoke your minds:

The study I posted on my other thread suggested that the fewer refusals and the less likely a horse will refuse, the more likely they will have a fall on course. Maybe a go getter at all cost horse is NOT the best eventer.

Reed[/QUOTE]


Out hunting we call these horses "over, under, thru" horses. Great for bushwacking and crossing raging rivers; not so great for solid tables. The above suggestion seems highly plausible to me. Of my last 4 horses only one was an "over under thru"" horse and we had a horrible crash, brought down the fence, horse and me. Thankfully it was probably under 3 foot and we(horse, me and fence (post and railish to a drop) all landed in lots of mud. I had a heck of a time rigging the thing back up so the cows would not follow me home!!

I could have ridden this horse down an LA freeway but was he safe? Frankly, I feel safer jumping my careful guys, and they leave more rails up :)

[denny]

This "see a distance, or not see a distance" depends on the rider.
Some can, some can`t. If you can, and a few strides out, you know that if you move up, or wait, you`ll be spot on, are you meant to just do nothing and take the wreck?
I`m way too chicken for that!
I`ll use my eye, thanks!

[LLDM]

Okay, so what I am getting here is that even at this stage of the game, there is no consensus on what makes a great event horse - esp. at the upper levels.

Scary.

'cause if we can't agree to what needs to be tested, how do we test for it? hmmmmm?

This is a great discussion though - as it is helping me define more specifically my horse. I have always described her as a horse that won't stop unless I am totally stupid. In other words she won't risk our lives. She will, on occasion (like my computer) ask me, "Are you SURE???"

Now that is a great horse for me, now. But what does that mean for her future?

So, to recap - do we really want a thinking eventing partner? One with veto power? Or do we want absolute trust and obedience? And if so, do we then take absolute responsibility when things go to $hi!?

Damn glad I am going to Lucinda next week! The timing couldn't be better for me!

SCFarm

[pwynnnorman]

Oddly enough, LDM, I've had a parallel summary on the homepage of my website for years. I use color-coded icons to describe the temperaments and natures of the ponies I have available. I'm going to reproduce it below -- I hope no one takes it as advertising -- because even though this discussion involves eventing, not only do I believe the concepts apply across the board, but I can tell you that I have had literally hundreds of people, from trainers to beginners, tell me how much they've appreciated my icons and explanations of temperament. What that tells me is that this is something that doesn't occur to people routinely, but when they do encounter this reasoning, they seem to embrace it. Over the years, I've come to have a lot of confidence in what seems to be just a flat-out FACT: this stuff really does matter.


The BROWN jumpers are probably “too much pony” for hunters or for pleasure: they love to run and jump and will do so with little or no urging. They are very sensitive and quick to respond, and while they are less tolerant of rider errors, they have a kamakazee degree of courage and willingness that will take them beyond the expected and into the exceptional. These ponies are super-obedient--almost brainlessly so--never questioning the demands of rider or handler, even if those demands are unreasonable. As a result, they are suited only for the experienced horseperson who knows what they want or for those under the close guidance of such horsepeople.

The GREEN jumper icons indicate ponies whose temperaments are ideally suited for today’s show hunter environment. First and foremost, they are quiet ponies. How can we guarentee this, even in the youngsters? These are the ponies who stand in the cross ties without fighting or fussing from the very first day they are tied. The ones who can be left in a stall forever and never get full of themselves; the ones who, once they learn what their job is, will do it no matter what mistakes their riders make. They are also the ones who will probably hold back a bit the first time you ask them to work harder, run faster or jump higher and who will think you are downright crazy if you ask them to jump a 3’6” fence followed by a steep drop into water…again. These are not ponies who will ever piaffe. These are the potential packers, perfect for the novice or intermediate to raise and ride safely and enjoyably.

A few of our horses serve purposes in life not associated with any competition arena. These ponies are our culls or companions and are noted by GRAY icons.

[Hoof1]

That is how it seems to me. I don't think the bits are bad, but I imagine that many of the people using them are on unsuitable mounts.
You must remember that there are no bad horses only bad riders. The bits are unsuitable at the lower levels because they require riders that have not only an understanding of using the aids, a stabilized postion and seat but horses that gallop in a balance and adjustable manner. Novice, training and most preliminary horses and riders do not yet have the developed skill to use them correctly. So the horse since he can not take normal contact is forced to become stiff and usually inverted at the gallop and jumps in poor form. When consistently put in poor positions to jump the fence the horse will develop very poor stile and loose any desire to protect himself by jumping using his rear end, his back and shoulders. If he tries then the device, excuse me the bit prevents him for doing what he should do.

[ksbadger]

You must remember that there are no bad horses only bad riders.

Hoof,
I'm not so sure I can agree with that. If you look way back when the format change occurred, one reason was "so they can sell us more warmbloods". That was probably untrue but it does make you wonder. Consider the rapidly changing conditions as you go over a set of combination fences (especially at the level where the problems are occurring). Would you prefer to on a TB with hair-trigger reactions or a relatively slow-witted warmblood? OK I'm making a big difference for emphasis but what about, say, one of Pwynn's Browns or one of her Greens - which would react when things go wrong and thus be safer? Could the (however slight) emphasis in breeding for the better dressage score also make for worse XC?

[denny]

4 days ago I watched the $500,000. Charlotte (NC) Grand Prix.
It was a who`s who of the best North American riders and horses, plus Roderigo Pessoa, etc.
The horses were all warmbloods, but typy, breedy, quick as cats, with enormous scope and agility.
Quietly over the past decade or two, many of our stereotypes about clunky dumbloods have been giving way to a different style of European horse.
Go see for yourselves, go watch some big grand prix classes, and see what you think.
I`m guessing you`ll come away with a changed perspective. I`ve been a full tb fan for years, but I think that`s a form of self imposed blindness, and I`m trying to be more open minded!

[LLDM]

The mare I event is a WB - no TB in the 3 generations, only one in the 4th. However, there is a big dash of Trakehner. Every thinks this mare is TB - and not just from body type - mostly from attitude, energy level and intensity. She is from strong jumper lines.

I did grow up riding TBs and 1/2 TBs - she is just not that different from them. The more dressage bred WBs I have are (very generally) more mellow. But I have also known a couple very mellow TBs. They just weren't out eventing. ;)

And remember - a WB with a lot of TB can (and usually is) still a WB, where as a TB, even with the tiniest amount of WB, or pony, or QH, Welsh or Arab is, technically, a crossbred.

Denny - I would have bred TBs had there been a real TB sporthorse program in place. But without the depth and connections with TBs, I chose to breed WBs, as I could get great information about their conformation, performance records (until they get here to the US), and progeny.

Personally - I want a horse with veto power - no matter what level I ride. This is why I ride horses and not a motorcycle. If the upper levels are going to require one of those jump anything, anywhere, any time - no matter what the consequences - I seriously doubt we will solve the safety problems.

SCFarm

[Bensmom]

I have to agree with this:

You know, I'm struck by something here: everyone has jumped on the "people don't learn to gallop" bandwagon, yet over and over again on this very board, BN and N riders are told that they DON'T need to learn to gallop. Um...ya can't have it both ways. Either it's important (in which case it's ridiculous to only start to learn it once you get to the level where things start getting dangerous) or it's not.

I'm a proud LL smurf, and I didn't event until I was comfortable at speed, could rate my horse up and down, and had enough confidence to let go of my horse's face while doing all that. Now, I've done (also LL) gymkhana for years, which helps more than you'd think at first glance, and I was one of those kids who grew up racing across the fields, so I've been very comfortable with simply galloping (sans fences ;)) and rating for a long time. I've never jumped at steeplechase speed (though once or twice it's felt like it... :lol:), but I HAVE schooled - and more than once or twice - at a solidly four beat gait, shall we say. And people have told me TO MY FACE that I was overpreparing for the lower levels. (I belong to the school of thought that it's very hard to be OVERprepared for most anything, but that's not the point at the moment. ;))

So which is it? Do we need to learn to gallop or not? Or is this another one of those "but the lower levels don't count" things? :sigh:

I have seen here, as well as on other email lists, the opinion that "you don't need a watch, you don't need studs, you don't need x or y or z at the lower levels." In fact, using a watch to study speeds and learn the feel of different mpms has been explicitly dismissed as not needed to the point of treating such questions scornfully from BN riders.

Fortunately, I have always disregarded this attitude. :D Do you HAVE to have these things to compete at BN? No, and you certainly don't need the name brand stuff to look cool.

Are you better off if you learn these skills from the very beginning? Whether it is judging footing conditions, or pace at the gallop, from the very slow 350mpm, to the faster, true gallop speeds, I think that learning those skills from the get go is important. We now have an area where we have more room to ride here, but we have to trailer out to it. When my trainer taught me those skills, though, it was at the 2' really beginner levels, and we did it in a turnout field with the meters marked off.

I've always been grateful that I learned what are probably upper level skills early, as I totally agree with Kementari -- I don't think you can be overprepared.

Also, fwiw, Ralph has always said that the brilliant xc horses are the ones that are, oftentimes, a bit difficult and opinionated. He also felt that training a horse for the upper levels, for an upper level rider was a different ball game than getting one ready to be a novice horse.

His plan for the Monster was different when his ultimate goal was producing something that would tote me around at BN/N into its dotage than when we sat down and determined that the horse had the heart, personality and talent to continue moving up and at that point, I asked him to instead ride him the way he would train him for an UL ride and see how far he could go. I could always work on my riding and try to get good enough to ride whatever Ralph ended up producing for me!

It is an interesting discussion -- should there be a difference in the way the horses are trained and shouldn't riders at the lower levels begin to develop skills they'd need if they were ever going to move up to the upper levels, however unlikely (especially in MY case! :lol: ) that would be?

fwiw, I hopped on the Monster bareback and hacked him over to his turnout field Monday, through a field, a drainage ditch, a quiet neighborhood street, across a highway, down to visit the elementary school and then to his field with his buddies.

Ralph developed for me a horse I can do that on -- would I come out of the start box on him at Training level, even if my riding skills were up to it? Not on your LIFE! :lol: He's good, but he is a pro's ride out there for sure! :yes: :yes:

libby

[eqsiu]

You must remember that there are no bad horses only bad riders. The bits are unsuitable at the lower levels because they require riders that have not only an understanding of using the aids, a stabilized postion and seat but horses that gallop in a balance and adjustable manner. Novice, training and most preliminary horses and riders do not yet have the developed skill to use them correctly. So the horse since he can not take normal contact is forced to become stiff and usually inverted at the gallop and jumps in poor form. When consistently put in poor positions to jump the fence the horse will develop very poor stile and loose any desire to protect himself by jumping using his rear end, his back and shoulders. If he tries then the device, excuse me the bit prevents him for doing what he should do.

If the rider doesn't have the finess to use the bit but needs the power to control the horse, yes, the horse is unsuitable. For that rider.

I'm not sure we actually disagree?