William Fox-Pitt defends CMP but everyone talks about snoopy and Rolex instead

[JER]

From the Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article3740014.ece).

“Because of these accidents, American riders needed someone to attack and Mark, as course designer, is the obvious choice,” Fox-Pitt said yesterday, speaking from Belton Horse Trials in Lincolnshire. “But the sport needs people like Mark who have the confidence to build a testing course - it's good that he

[eqsiu]

He's not the antichrist, just an exceedingly arrogant man. I think his manner is what turns many people off rather than the courses he builds. And when you don't like someone, it's very easy to pick them apart over everything.

(If he just had someone to edit his public statements...)

[Fence2Fence]

Ok, so how often is Fox-Pitt coming over to the US to compete, other than Rolex (which isn't a CMP course)? I didn't see him in the results of Red Hills. WFP's defense of CMP rings a little empty to me.

[Debbie]

I think "the American riders needed someone to attack" is a HUGE oversimplification of the current sentiment and represents a distressing dismissal of a wide array of concerns. Pretty disappointing... :no:

[Ilex]

Ok, so how often is Fox-Pitt coming over to the US to compete, other than Rolex (which isn't a CMP course)? I didn't see him in the results of Red Hills. WFP's defense of CMP rings a little empty to me.

CMP builds courses in the UK too.

[snoopy]

CMP builds courses in the UK too.


and they are NOTHING like he builds here!!!

[deltawave]

and they are NOTHING like he builds here!!!

Possibly because his daughter has to ride them. :p

[Ravencrest_Camp]

Possibly because his daughter has to ride them. :p

I wouldn't know Mark Phillips if he bit me in the ass, but that has to be singularily the most ignorant comment I have read regarding the man. Even if it was meant tongue in cheek.

Even if you accept the premise that he designs crappy and dangerous courses, you can't honestly say he does it on purpose only in the US. :confused:

Have all the accidents happened on Mark Phillips designed courses? If not, why no hysteria and gnashing of teeth with other course designer? :confused:

[vineyridge]

Possibly the difference between his UK courses and his American ones, if there is one, is that he can do whatever he likes here because of his status, but over there, the eventing establishment doesn't have to kowtow to him and won't put up with overly technical courses.

Another very bad sentence. :cool:

[denny]

You guys know that one, right? That if you put a frog in boiling water, he`ll leap right out, but if you put him in when the water`s cold, and gradually heat it, he`ll die.
This analogy has been used lots of ways, but the gist is that when things change gradually, they sneak up on you.
And I think that`s what`s happened to xc design, it got a little harder, then a little more, then more, and suddenly we`re in big trouble.
But it only SEEMED suddenly. It crept up on all of us, and I think to blame any one person, or any set of people, is to avoid the fact that we all got blindsided by this. If we hadn`t there would have been lots more outcry lots sooner.
So I think we can all share responsibility for how we got here.

[SandyUHC]

The psychological term "Identified Problem" refers to when a group has to find one person to pin all their perceived problems on. I too think it is ridiculous to make one particular person the IP of eventing, and it does nothing to improve the situation.

[deltawave]

Well, COTH doesn't provide a tongue in cheek icon, but the :p was as close as I could get. Jeez.

[KateDB]

I don't think the sweeping generalizations and jumps to conclusions that folks make are going to help resolve the issues and certainly don't help the public image. There is NO single scapegoat for the things that have happened in the sport. You can not tell me that one single man alone has brought eventing to it's knees. I don't believe that. CMP may be completely hateable....but he hasn't designed every course where there has been an incident. And he isn't the coach of every rider of every team of every country who has been injured/killed.

It sounds great that one person is to blame or one change is to blame, but that's simply not the case. The issues are more complex and therefore more difficult to resolve and are going to take time, study, analysis and work to change. A single campaign slogan approach isn't going to make it happen and indeed has become a distraction.

Whatever happened to focus on the issues and not the personality?

[Bossanova]

Ok, so how often is Fox-Pitt coming over to the US to compete, other than Rolex (which isn't a CMP course)? I didn't see him in the results of Red Hills. WFP's defense of CMP rings a little empty to me.

He designs courses in the UK too so WFP has often ridden his tracks. They are well thought out, pitched at just the right level and have never, ever been moaned about.

This guy knows his stuff, he is not an evil man with a thing against the Americans. He's also a very pleasant person, not arrogant or above anybody else. He trains all levels over here and does it very well.

[snoopy]

As I have said in a previous post on this issue, his courses ARE different from those he designs here...I am not saying that HIS courses are to blame. But having ridden in the UK for the better part of 15 years, I can assure, I have never ridden something like what was designed at Red Hills....I do think that eventing has a greater media/spectator appeal in the UK and therefore does not require the flashy disney type jumps that seem to be appearing in the US on a regular basis....maybe it has to do with a difference in cultures and or sponsor expectations.

[fitzwilliam]

His course at Rebecca Farm in MT is lots of galloping and fair questions, so far no serious injuries directly related to the course design. Unfortunately, relatively few US riders get to ride this course. Not saying I'm pro or anti CMP, just trying to present another piece of the puzzle.

[fernie fox]

Possibly the difference between his UK courses and his American ones, if there is one, is that he can do whatever he likes here because of his status, but over there, the eventing establishment doesn't have to kowtow to him and won't put up with overly technical courses.

Another very bad sentence. :cool:

I think you have a point here.;)

I don't think the owners of British courses would allow the "Disneyesque "jumps that were built at Red Hills.

They were just SO out of context with the surrounding area.[Lovely rolling hills and woodands]:no:

I cant imagine Burghley with
"bloody great fishes" lounging in and around the water complex.:D

[flshgordon]

This guy knows his stuff, he is not an evil man with a thing against the Americans. He's also a very pleasant person, not arrogant or above anybody else. He trains all levels over here and does it very well.

Then he should really REALLY think about getting a PR person....or a translator so that before something else jerk-ish comes out of his mouth, someone has time to edit it!

[denny]

Yeah, tact isn`t a strong suit. I`ve gotten the business end of his comments, too.
But that doesn`t make him responsible for all that`s gone wrong.

[JAM]

Is terrain a consideration as well? I have the impression that courses here tend to be hillier on the whole than those in the UK, but that could be total ignorance on my part, since I've never seen either the Red Hills course or any CMP-designed course in the UK.

As I have said in a previous post on this issue, his courses ARE different from those he designs here...I am not saying that HIS courses are to blame. But having ridden in the UK for the better part of 15 years, I can assure, I have never ridden something like what was designed at Red Hills....I do think that eventing has a greater media/spectator appeal in the UK and therefore does not require the flashy disney type jumps that seem to be appearing in the US on a regular basis....maybe it has to do with a difference in cultures and or sponsor expectations.

[snoopy]

UK courses vary like those here...Badminton is flat, burghley hilly, Gatcombe and chatsworth very hilly. I think that it really boils down to the amount of usable land in either country. For the most part I think that courses in the UK are more spread out then some of the high profile courses in the US...and I believe the smaller amount of land used in some US events has an effect on course design...but that does not obsolve course designers of the responsibilty of safely designing a course that suits the track they have to work with. If that cannot be done, then the site is unsuitable. I mean I would LOVE to host a fall four star on my property but as of yet have not figured out how to do that on ten acres of land;) The biggest example of a course exceeding the amount of land was Foxhall...I mean honestly!!!!

[pwynnnorman]

As I have said in a previous post on this issue, his courses ARE different from those he designs here...But having ridden in the UK for the better part of 15 years, I can assure, I have never ridden something like what was designed at Red Hills....

Y'know, snoopy, I gotta ask it: Who ARE you?

Several of us have a bit of a game going on trying to figure it out. And we're getting pretty close.

But in the meantime, you've talked a LOT about your experiences in defending your positions. How about ending our game and telling us who you are so we can appreciate your points more fully, hmmm? :yes:

[RunForIt]

UK courses vary like those here...Badminton is flat, burghley hilly, Gatcombe and chatsworth very hilly. I think that it really boils down to the amount of usable land in either country. For the most part I think that courses in the UK are more spread out then some of the high profile courses in the US...and I believe the smaller amount of land used in some US events has an effect on course design...but that does not obsolve course designers of the responsibilty of safely designing a course that suits the track they have to work with. If that cannot be done, then the site is unsuitable. I mean I would LOVE to host a fall four star on my property but as of yet have not figured out how to do that on ten acres of land;) The biggest example of a course exceeding the amount of land was Foxhall...I mean honestly!!!!

Foxhall is a property that I know from one boundary to another - so, if its too small to do a proper XC course, then we all need to think together (meaning the folks who have the valid, reliable knowledge to do so) to describe a property for XC that can ask the proper questions of an event horse and rider partnership.

[Xanthoria]

I don't think the owners of British courses would allow the "Disneyesque "jumps that were built at Red Hills.

They were just SO out of context with the surrounding area.[Lovely rolling hills and woodands]:no:

I cant imagine Burghley with
"bloody great fishes" lounging in and around the water complex.:D

Well obviously the land owners in the USA are either not stopping him, or even encouraging jumps like that, because no course designer sets jumps down like alien landings and vanishes under cover of dark without anyone having input.

[Xanthoria]

Here's a bit of commentary from other Brits after the Times article "Zara Phillip's father in fatal jumps row (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article3736383.ece)"


"How sad that a person in such a public position as Carol Ogden has so little understanding of the sport that rewards her with the august title of 'president'. Her comment that she wants to gallop in an apparently unbroken rhythm around the fences on a top class course proves that 'Amateur' is exactly the level she best stay at - for both her own safety & that of the horses she probably professes to 'ride'. Cross country events come at different levels for a reason. One who has neither enough skill, control or partnership with their horse to be able to judge the approaches, check their speed & rebalance their horse in response to a challenging course is not a rider; they are a passenger & as such should do their mount a favour & stick to flying round a nice little Hunter Trials course where their horse can pop the fences & keep them out of trouble. They could also learn by watching Zara Phillips put in the schooling work that enables her to partner the strapping 17hh Toytown safely."
Susie Hall de Silva, London, England

"What an inaccurate article. Mark Phillips builds so many courses that unfortunately there will be accidents but he has ridden himself at this level and has a daughter that will jump these courses - no father would build a course that he knew she would be excessively at risk to jump round. At the end of the day the rider has a choice to make. You know who builds the course in advance of entering and walk the course before riding it - if you don't like it then don't ride round it. If you are fearful you won't tackle the fences accurately, being over confident is dangerous, as is going scared! Check the facts before publishing such articles."
Dawn , Guildford,

"Secondly, there has been no mention of the hundreds of courses Phillips has designed that have been successfully jumped by hundreds of riders. He designs more courses than anyone else so of course tragically, more people may be killed riding them. But in statistics or percentages the quantities are not so extreme. I think more research is needed before finding another reason to attack people."
Emily, UK, UK

[snoopy]

Foxhall is a property that I know from one boundary to another - so, if its too small to do a proper XC course, then we all need to think together (meaning the folks who have the valid, reliable knowledge to do so) to describe a property for XC that can ask the proper questions of an event horse and rider partnership.

I am not sure of the tone of your post so I will clarify my previous post:

MY personal feeling that the course...eg 3 star..exceeded the required land use that foxhall offered. Yes it ran, but MY personal feeling is that it was not an idea venue to hold a course of those requirements....there was not enough land to allow the horses to run with a consistant pace. I am not saying that the venue was unsuitable for a course of lesser requirement/challenge.

There needs to be enough land that the course can ask the required questions, amount of jumping efforts and still allow the horse to complete the course (as much as possible) with out having to take it out of its stride as often as one needed at Foxhall.

[snoopy]

Y'know, snoopy, I gotta ask it: Who ARE you?

Several of us have a bit of a game going on trying to figure it out. And we're getting pretty close.

But in the meantime, you've talked a LOT about your experiences in defending your positions. How about ending our game and telling us who you are so we can appreciate your points more fully, hmmm? :yes:


Well I am a nobody who has been very fortunate to be a part of this sport for MANY years...I have ridden to the advanced level but flew under the radar. So I can only recount my experiences and opinions. It shouldn't matter who I am to "appreciate my points more fully"...it is up to you to decide if my points are worth appreciating. If not there is always the ignore function.

[RunForIt]

I am not sure of the tone of your post so I will clarify my previous post:

MY personal feeling that the course...eg 3 star..exceeded the required land use that foxhall offered. Yes it ran, but MY personal feeling is that it was not an idea venue to hold a course of those requirements....there was not enough land to allow the horses to run with a consistant pace. I am not saying that the venue was unsuitable for a course of lesser requirement/challenge.

There needs to be enough land that the course can ask the required questions, amount of jumping efforts and still allow the horse to complete the couse (as much as possible) with out having to take it out of its stride as often as one needed at Foxhall.

my question was as a novice (US Training) level competitor...completely LITERAL question...If Foxhall had limitations, what would be the criteria for minimum standards for a 3*** and hopefully, 4**** 3-day event? distance for XC, Roads and tracks, steeplechase - then crack open each of the criteria into definable, observable definitions.

I depend on your feedback because of who you are and what you've done and continue to do in this very worthy sport. - that may be the sort of thinking that can define standards for anything we do from now on.

[Debbie]

I think the limitations that Foxhall had were not in terms of its boundaries. As you know Runforit, it is an enormous property and the course actually only utilized a fraction of it. It's my opinion derived from being a volunteer there for 2 or 3 years of the event, that the drivers limiting the course to the area that was utilized were 2-fold: footing and spectator friendly.

As I recall, the event was marketed heavily to the general public and as such a lot of efforts were put into making it accessible for viewing without a lot of trekking all over. Secondly the bottoms along the river had the best natural footing and it got exceedingly hard and rocky as you moved out of the bottoms. Even on the bottoms, footing was a constant battle as it was pretty hard thanks to Georgia red clay. A lot of effort and expense went into trying to improve the track.

I think to Snoop's point, the real issue is the conflict of interest between spectator-friendly and horse-friendly. While they aren't totally mutually exclusive, the latter has to be the primary driver. Rolex, as example, manages both especially with the addition of the big screens, without compromising the galloping nature of the sport.

[fernie fox]

Well I am a nobody who has been very fortunate to be a part of this sport for MANY years...I have ridden to the advanced level but flew under the radar. So I can only recount my experiences and opinions. It shouldn't matter who I am to "appreciate my points more fully"...it is up to you to decide if my points are worth appreciating. If not there is always the ignore function.


Bravo Snoopy,HA HA dont tell them who you are.:D

They should be able merit your obvious experience,by your words.[Not by who you married or what you own.;)

I too was involved in International calibre horses through the 60,70,early 80s,before I came here to US.

I am now old and useless,when it comes to high powered horses,,,but you know, I have my opinions,,,,and folks can take it or leave it.

But I do know a good horse/horseman when I see it,"you cant take that away from me":D.

I have watched the "event" courses degenerate during the last 10 years or so here.

The over technical,tricky fences/crosscountry courses are killing the sport.[ruining many good horses along the way]

I felt,soo sad for the horses at Red Hills,I sat and watched their,"frustrated expressions". as they showjumped round that course.[purple faced, exhausted riders too]:eek:

It does'nt reward the free thinking horse and rider anymore;)

Off to swing on the front porch.:D

[pwynnnorman]

Well I am a nobody who has been very fortunate to be a part of this sport for MANY years...I have ridden to the advanced level but flew under the radar. So I can only recount my experiences and opinions. It shouldn't matter who I am to "appreciate my points more fully"...it is up to you to decide if my points are worth appreciating. If not there is always the ignore function.

Just for the record, folks, as I told snoopy in response to his PM, a couple of us are playing a game of "Who is he?" (we all seem certain snoop's a he) and I figured the way he happens to be posting right now about his European experiences would be the perfect opportunity to try an end run and see if I could get him to tell me. It's all quite lighthearted. (I scored big when I figured out who Sumatra--if I remember the name correctly--is.)

[Eventer55]

Leave it to eventers to start a game in the middle of something very serious:):):) Hark to em you guys. . . :winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

[snoopy]

Just for the record, folks, as I told snoopy in response to his PM, a couple of us are playing a game of "Who is he?" (we all seem certain snoop's a he) and I figured the way he happens to be posting right now about his European experiences would be the perfect opportunity to try an end run and see if I could get him to tell me. It's all quite lighthearted. (I scored big when I figured out who Sumatra--if I remember the name correctly--is.)


Oh yes...please let me confirm that Pwynn and I are good terms....no trouble there:D

The only thing I do find "interesting" is the interest in a "broken down
old-has been" with a bit of experience on both continents. Really though, for those interested in the man behind the paws....it is all rather boring and you will find yourself very disappointed. So don't try too hard...as the game will prove to be that much more fun than the actualy answer.:yes:

[flyingchange]

pwynn -

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[ravenclaw]

Wait a minute...Snoop Dog is a man?? I'm going to need some time to get used to that. :D

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=Debbie;3147239]I think the limitations that Foxhall had were not in terms of its boundaries.
I think to Snoop's point, the real issue is the conflict of interest between spectator-friendly and horse-friendly. While they aren't totally mutually exclusive, the latter has to be the primary driver. QUOTE]



Yes I was speaking of the land that was ON OFFER for use in the event...not the actual size of the property.

[Jazzy Lady]

Wait a minute...Snoop Dog is a man?? I'm going to need some time to get used to that. :D

Well... a true Diva though... ;)

[Fence2Fence]

I suspected Snoopy was a man from the writing style. Tis too funny that Cothers have a game going on to figure out who is who.

I think this forum is very lucky to have such a diverse group of people from all different levels and experiences.

[fernie fox]

Oh yes...please let me confirm that Pwynn and I are good terms....no trouble there:D

The only thing I do find "interesting" is the interest in a "broken down
old-has been" with a bit of experience on both continents. Really though, for those interested in the man behind the paws....it is all rather boring and you will find yourself very disappointed. So don't try too hard...as the game will prove to be that much more fun than the actualy answer.:yes:

Aahh,but the most fun is always in the "chase".:D;)

[snoopy]

Aahh,but the most fun is always in the "chase".:D;)


Hey foxy, it has been a long time since I have been chased, and by a woman to boot.:winkgrin:
Me thinks I am going to have to close the dog house door and lay low for a while.

[fernie fox]

I wish I could afford a good jigolo,,,they fill a need you know.

[Abracadabra]

Does anyone else remember the comments on Badminton, Burghley, etc. about 20yrs ago that the courses were becoming too tough, tricky, twisty, etc. and horses & riders were dying at least one per year, per big event. I specifically remember an olympics and a commentator on the X-C course saying the fences were lower, slower and so tame, as compared to any of the UK four star events specifically due to the number of fatalities. Do we now have those tough tricky twisty drops, courses, and time limits on USA courses that were previously experienced on UK courses, as the sport catches on here 20yrs later?
This UK memory is also about the same time that steeplechasers were dying at least two per big race, per year! So the courses were tamed down there also. Living in England at the time, i remember people tuning in to watch these events on TV (now isn't that a concept?), specifically to watch the crashes.

[annikak]

Hey foxy, it has been a long time since I have been chased, and by a woman to boot.:winkgrin:
Me thinks I am going to have to close the dog house door and lay low for a while.


NOOOOOOOO!!!!! Leave the door open!

Snoops told us he was a guy that had feathers in his hair in the 70's.

See, I don't "know" Snoopy, but value, trust and appreciate his opinions.

I have PM'd him and told him I loff him (true) and I know he likes a lot of the same people I like, and dislikes a lot of those I dislike. So, He is my chosen COTH crush. I just couldn't pick him out in a crowd. S'ok. I am happily married!:winkgrin: Never hurts to read, does it??

[Debbie]

So, He is my chosen COTH crush.

Can we share? ;):D:D

[LLDM]

Darn, I thought everyone knew already! Snoops is my love child with Reiner Klimke. We split the difference in continents and let him be raised in England by the gypsies. So yes, he does fart rainbow butterflies. :cool:

Sorry Snoops, but they were gonna find out sooner or later.

SCFarm

[fernie fox]

Sorry to burst your bubble,LLDM,but you were on your arse due to too much Gluvine,sp.

That was'nt R.Klimke it was some wandering vagrant who was hanging around Aachen,for the championships.

When the gypsies stole him from you,he was not farting butterflies of any kind,poor kid was raised on Beer and brats.;)

No Rainbow butterflies until the child was taken to England in a Romany wagon.:D

Upon landing at Dover,in the covered Gypsy wagon ,the child did then start farting Rainbow butterflies.

My family took the child in and raised it ,for a few years.

We never did know what sex it was,the long hair and feathers were confusing to us.:eek:

But being gentle folk,we did not enquire, for fear of upseting the little one.:D

Turned out to be very knowledgable about ,things equine,and moved from our care when another Gypsy caravan passed through.:lol:

[LexInVA]

I was really adamant to respect the privacy of Snoop but I feel that it's best you all get a little bit of insight into the kind of man he is so he can get back to enjoying his anonymous existence. So I've assembled some images from the Snoopy photo collection that will at least answer the question of what Snoopy looks like and what he's like as a human being.

Click here and see Snoopy for yourself. (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn67/SnoopyDoggityDog/?albumview=grid)

[eqsiu]

Click here and see Snoopy for yourself. (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn67/SnoopyDoggityDog/?albumview=grid)

You made me heave! :mad:

[LexInVA]

You made me heave! :mad:

I guess it wasn't that funny. :(

[bludini]

I guess it wasn't that funny. :(

Nuh - UH...Thassver'funny.

[LexInVA]

Snoops liked it so I guess I'm okay for now. :lol:

[pwynnnorman]

People, please, please LET THIS GO. It was a game and now it's turned into something unpleasant. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. You're downright creepy. (And I feel so stupidly naive in even bringing it up!)

[RunForIt]

NOOOOOOOO!!!!! Leave the door open!

Snoops told us he was a guy that had feathers in his hair in the 70's.

See, I don't "know" Snoopy, but value, trust and appreciate his opinions.

I have PM'd him and told him I loff him (true) and I know he likes a lot of the same people I like, and dislikes a lot of those I dislike. So, He is my chosen COTH crush. I just couldn't pick him out in a crowd. S'ok. I am happily married!:winkgrin: Never hurts to read, does it??

bold-faced mine, but DITTO! (especially the happily married part! :D )

[Equibrit]

Just for the record, folks, as I told snoopy in response to his PM, a couple of us are playing a game of "Who is he?" (we all seem certain snoop's a he) and I figured the way he happens to be posting right now about his European experiences would be the perfect opportunity to try an end run and see if I could get him to tell me. It's all quite lighthearted. (I scored big when I figured out who Sumatra--if I remember the name correctly--is.)


Oh well .....................bully for you! (light heartedly)

[fernie fox]

The rest of us are playing too Wynn.;)

You started it.;)

What does it matter who Snoopy is.:confused:

Snoopy knows his/her stuff , well I think so anyway.:D

And Seems to have a Great British sense of humour.:lol:

If not,,,I truly apologise to Snoopy.:yes:

Get out of that dog house now, Snoopy,you got some "splainin "to do.:D

I'm off to my Poker night.:D

[RunForIt]

The rest of us are playing too Wynn.;)

You started it.;)

What does it matter who Snoopy is.:confused:

Snoopy knows his/her stuff , well I think so anyway.:D

And Seems to have a Great British sense of humour.:lol:

If not,,,I truly apologise to Snoopy.:yes:

Get out of that dog house now, Snoopy,you got some "splainin "to do.:D

I'm off to my Poker night.:D

I once directly asked...and never heard from her/him again! but, do dearly love to read "it's" posts! Smart, caring, and DIRECT!....and HONEST! :cool:

[Jazzy Lady]

Hahaha... lex... hahaha.

Don't hassle the Hoff!!!

Annika - You must share. Snoops is my coth boyfriend, and I'm his ticket to Canadian citizenship :p hahahaha. What do you all have to offer???? ;)

[annikak]

Can we share? ;):D:D

Well, Debbie- I have never shared anyone before- but, you seem nice, so...if Snoops says it's okay, I am okay with it. Really...


What does it matter who Snoopy is.:confused:

Snoopy knows his/her stuff , well I think so anyway.:D

And Seems to have a Great British sense of humour.:lol:

Get out of that dog house now, Snoopy,you got some "splainin "to do.:D

I'm off to my Poker night.:D

All I want is Snoopy outta the dog house. Really, that's all. First he stops eventing, and then now this...SNOOOPPPYYY!!! WHERE ARE YOU??

Now, what was this thread about? Another British person, I think??? Something about some red thing in a pit?? Hmm?

[LexInVA]

Hahaha... lex... hahaha.

Don't hassle the Hoff!!!

Annika - You must share. Snoops is my coth boyfriend, and I'm his ticket to Canadian citizenship :p hahahaha. What do you all have to offer???? ;)

In this case it's "Don't snoop for Snoopy!". We should probably let him enjoy his anonymous hound dog status until he's ready to show us the tag on his dog collar.

[annikak]

Annika - You must share. Snoops is my coth boyfriend, and I'm his ticket to Canadian citizenship :p hahahaha. What do you all have to offer???? ;)

I have things to bring to the table on a Saturday Night- things that are made from things elephants eat and get drunk with after they fall off a tree someplace in Africa, I think. But then again, it was my Irish friend that told me this...

But I will share that with you. That work???

[Jazzy Lady]

I have things to bring to the table on a Saturday Night- things that are made from things elephants eat and get drunk with after they fall off a tree someplace in Africa, I think. But then again, it was my Irish friend that told me this...

But I will share that with you. That work???

Sweet

[Debbie]

I have things to bring to the table on a Saturday Night- things that are made from things elephants eat and get drunk with after they fall off a tree someplace in Africa, I think. But then again, it was my Irish friend that told me this...

But I will share that with you. That work???

Okay! Forget sharing Snoops, l wanna share whatever this is! :D

Add me to the roster that doesn't care who Snoopy is; I'm just glad he/she is here!

[annikak]

Okay- you girls at rolex? I shall bring it...promise. I can even bring it along with a flask...! It is called Amarula, and it has a pretty elephant on the label. I have it right next to me waiting to be packed.

I am told it's mighty good- and it's currently unopened. So, lot's to share. we shall raise a toast in his honor. Unless...unless...unless....

[LexInVA]

Okay- you girls at rolex? I shall bring it...promise. I can even bring it along with a flask...! It is called Amarula, and it has a pretty elephant on the label. I have it right next to me waiting to be packed.

I am told it's mighty good- and it's currently unopened. So, lot's to share. we shall raise a toast in his honor. Unless...unless...unless....

Save it for mixed drinks. It's seriously sweet stuff on it's own so it might not be what you're hoping it is.

[annikak]

Save it for mixed drinks. It's seriously sweet stuff on it's own so it might not be what you're hoping it is.

:no:shows how much I drink... Thanks for the heads up! I guess Jazzy knew what it was when she said Sweet.

I was hoping it would turn me in to an outstanding rider, with scores in the low 20's at all events. Guess not. Damn.

[LexInVA]

I was hoping it would turn me in to an outstanding rider, with scores in the low 20's at all events. Guess not. Damn.

I'm afraid only Canadian Moonshine can claim success with that. :lol:

[CookiePony]

Okay- you girls at rolex? I shall bring it...promise. I can even bring it along with a flask...! It is called Amarula, and it has a pretty elephant on the label. I have it right next to me waiting to be packed.

I am told it's mighty good- and it's currently unopened. So, lot's to share. we shall raise a toast in his honor. Unless...unless...unless....

I will offer my campsite/ trailer as a venue if we need one for sampling the elephant stuff. PM me if this sounds good!

[LexInVA]

Everyone should just bring whatever booze they can lay their hands on. Then you can mix some concoctions and see who ends up where at the end of it all.

[Bensmom]

annika -- I can bring to Rolex some N. Florida moonshine that is reportedly so good, you could compete the CCI-W course at RHHT immediately upon imbibing it. :lol: Or, you'd *think* you could, is more like it! ;) Probably all it would do is to help you figured out who moved the cheese and where it is now . . . ;) :lol:

See, even the RHHT folk have a sense of humour! <g>

Seriously -- do we get to come and visit your campiste, Cookiepony?

-Now back to the actual topic at hand-

[annikak]

BRING IT! ;)

I would take even thinking I could these days- never mind actually being able to jump anything CLOSE to Advanced- never mind actually doing it!

CookiePony- are you telling us we can invade? Read this thread carefully- VERRRRYY carefully before giving us the number....

[pwynnnorman]

Wait, wait! Was SNOOP's reaction in the PMs playing me, too? Oh, snap! Have I been had?

If so, I'm glad to have been had. I was so upset when it seemed to upset Snoopy.

[eqsiu]

Wait, wait! Was SNOOP's reaction in the PMs playing me, too? Oh, snap! Have I been had?

If so, I'm glad to have been had. I was so upset when it seemed to upset Snoopy.

Are you saying Snoopy had you and you don't know who he is? What were you drinking that night? :winkgrin:

[snoopy]

yes I did burst into tears afterwards....;)

[snoopy]

Sorry to burst your bubble,LLDM,but you were on your arse due to too much Gluvine,sp.

That was'nt R.Klimke it was some wandering vagrant who was hanging around Aachen,for the championships.

When the gypsies stole him from you,he was not farting butterflies of any kind,poor kid was raised on Beer and brats.;)

No Rainbow butterflies until the child was taken to England in a Romany wagon.:D

Upon landing at Dover,in the covered Gypsy wagon ,the child did then start farting Rainbow butterflies.

My family took the child in and raised it ,for a few years.

We never did know what sex it was,the long hair and feathers were confusing to us.:eek:

But being gentle folk,we did not enquire, for fear of upseting the little one.:D

Turned out to be very knowledgable about ,things equine,and moved from our care when another Gypsy caravan passed through.:lol:



But you PROMISED not to speak of my humble and shameful upbringing!!!
How could you???!!!:cry::mad:

[CookiePony]

Yeah, I know what I'm saying. I even asked my OH. Friday or Saturday night (after the Chinese food party) would be fine. We can even bring extra blankets so we can spread them on folks who don't make it back to their hotel rooms.

If you want my campsite and cell phone #s, drop me a PM.

[Eventer55]

Dear Snoopy

Did you ever know (not in the biblical sense) someone named Rebecca Coffin now Coffin-Vickery? She flew a bit under the radar too.

[snoopy]

Dear Snoopy

Did you ever know (not in the biblical sense) someone named Rebecca Coffin now Coffin-Vickery? She flew a bit under the radar too.


Yes...of course I know of her....very dedicated and talented rider....this was before the addition of Vickery though.

[Jazzy Lady]

Ya'll have to drink extra for me at Rolex 'cuz I can't make it :(

[LLDM]

Sorry to burst your bubble,LLDM,but you were on your arse due to too much Gluvine,sp.

That was'nt R.Klimke it was some wandering vagrant who was hanging around Aachen,for the championships.:lol:

Au Contrair, Fernie darlin', it was most definitely Herr Klimke himself (and I DO know why all his horses were so relaxed and happy!) :D And you were most definitely NOT There! :eek::p (Jealous, aren't you?)

Not to worry Snoops, you come by your talents honestly. Fernie has no right to disparage your parentage (at least not the paternal half!) Which is how I know, of course, who's yo daddy. You certainly didn't get any upper level talent from moi. :no::sadsmile:

She may have the rest of the story right, though...

SCFarm

[annikak]

Ya'll have to drink extra for me at Rolex 'cuz I can't make it :(

silly silly woman. Honestly- what are you thinking??? Humph.

[snoopy]

Au Contrair, Fernie darlin', it was most definitely Herr Klimke himself (and I DO know why all his horses were so relaxed and happy!) :D And you were most definitely NOT There! :eek::p (Jealous, aren't you?)

Not to worry Snoops, you come by your talents honestly. Fernie has no right to disparage your parentage (at least not the paternal half!) Which is how I know, of course, who's yo daddy. You certainly didn't get any upper level talent from moi. :no::sadsmile:

She may have the rest of the story right, though...

SCFarm



This is all making sense to me now...I am often asked about the rather unusual tatoo I have on my upper left arm....It is the actual "H" design for the hanovarian brand....I have no answer for the queries, I always assumed it was a birth mark. Mom, I am happy at last to have found you.

[LexInVA]

All My Children will return after these messages....

[LexInVA]

Ya'll have to drink extra for me at Rolex 'cuz I can't make it :(

You do know it takes six Americans to equal one Canadian in alcohol consumption right?

[eqsiu]

You do know it takes six Americans to equal one Canadian in alcohol consumption right?

What if they're party school frat boys?

[snoopy]

What if they're party school frat boys?


I think the average canadian WOMAN has them beat....

[LexInVA]

What if they're party school frat boys?

Frat boys just like to think they can drink so they drink large amounts of watered down American or Mexican beer or a few shots of some poor man's mixed bar drink. They can't handle the real stuff. :)

[LLDM]

This is all making sense to me now...I am often asked about the rather unusual tatoo I have on my upper left arm....It is the actual "H" design for the hanovarian brand....I have no answer for the queries, I always assumed it was a birth mark. Mom, I am happy at last to have found you.

At least you know now why Ingrid always snubbed you at the trot ups. It must be a bitter disappointment (on the maternal side) to know that funky mark on your left flank is an AWS and there is no lip tatoo for you. No wonder you have ended up a DQ, um, er, I mean a dressage rider - with the Klimke genes and no TB blood and all. The horsehead "H"s were all you dear old dad could do to hope you would end up with decent mounts.

Oh son, welcome home!

PS - I don't have any money.
PPS - I do have plenty of stalls to muck though! :winkgrin:

SCFarm (aspiring soap star!)

[eqsiu]

Frat boys just like to think they can drink so they drink large amounts of watered down American or Mexican beer or a few shots of some poor man's mixed bar drink. They can't handle the real stuff. :)

Are you claiming that Natty Light is not high quality beer? I am aghasted!

[LexInVA]

Are you claiming that Natty Light is not high quality beer? I am aghasted!

High quality to frat boys yes...because it's cheap and easy...which is how they like many things to be. ;) Might as well be paint thinner with food coloring.

[TB or not TB?]

You do know it takes six Americans to equal one Canadian in alcohol consumption right?

It would take like 24 of me - I'm a lightweight when it comes to drinking. :lol: Does that mean I'm not a true eventer? :eek:

[flutie1]

"... it has a pretty elephant on the label."

Elephants? Did you say elephants? Don't tell Gobi. He'll want some!

[tuppysmom]

Just sent our official scratch to Janie. Darn the luck. We have some heat and filling in the RF, so the horsey will not be coming with us to KY. We have other horses to haul so people will be there.

And, I thought that I was going to meet snoopy in person.

[BBowen]

"... it has a pretty elephant on the label."

Elephants? Did you say elephants? Don't tell Gobi. He'll want some!


Oh, Lord, that is all we need is a tipsy Dachshund!!!! I guess it can go with his elephant-shaped cookies.

[roki143]

Just sent our official scratch to Janie. Darn the luck. We have some heat and filling in the RF, so the horsey will not be coming with us to KY. We have other horses to haul so people will be there.

And, I thought that I was going to meet snoopy in person.

Oh no!!!! so sorry not to see another stellar cross country ride!

[eqsiu]

Oh no!!!! so sorry not to see another stellar cross country ride!

Are you going? You should hook up with me and Katy one day.

[roki143]

Are you going? You should hook up with me and Katy one day.

yup sure am, finalized plans a couple of days ago... bringing along the BF and the two dogs. And I'm sure something could be arranged for a Boskydell roundevous! I'll PM you though!

[JER]

I'm wondering if I should re-title this thread.

[eqsiu]

I'm wondering if I should re-title this thread.

*GASP* You're not saying we've strayed from the original topic, are you?

Ahem. WFP obviously has a crush on MP. (See? Still on topic!)

[denny]

You guys are nuts! If they let you loose at Rolex, someone`s going to get arrested.
(Not that you`ll mind, I suppose.)

[CookiePony]

denny, of course I'll mind getting arrested if I miss XC! I will resist arrest if it comes to that.

Jazzy, why on earth aren't you coming?

tuppysmom, darn the luck! I'm sending you a PM.

[gillenwaterfarm]

So, Cookiepony....can us little no name smurfs who only ride BN crash your party ? I'll be camping too.

[CookiePony]

Are you kidding?? If you look up "smurf" in the dictionary there is a picture of me!

[TB or not TB?]

Haha, I'm not going either. Jazzy and I can be rejects together. :winkgrin:

[Jazzy Lady]

Because I am a GIANT LOSER! hahahaha. Apparently.

No I have a gallery of my work on the friday opening and I have to set up all week. BOO!

[TB or not TB?]

Hey that's okay. I just plain can't afford it :cry: Your excuse is way better. :yes:

[Kaytaz86]

About that Amarula...serve over vanilla ice cream...don't ask me how I know :)

[Bensmom]

Ah, but denny, I know *at least* one KY lawyer that is an eventer. I'm sure she can bail us out and get us a "not guilty by reason of collective insanity!" :lol:

You will join us in getting arrested, right? I mean, my favorite picture from Rolex 2000 is of Kelley and I standing with denny at the water jump. :yes: :yes: Just think how cool it would be if we all had a group mug shot for this year! ;) :lol:

Libby (who is just, of course, kidding -- I haven't ever been arrested and I think I want to keep it that way, but who might be slipping out tomorrow to bop that mouse on the head after all, just to see what happens . . .)

[DLee]

Oh... and I am hanging out with Libby on Thursday whether she wants to or not.... I'm up for handcuffs!:yes:

[TB or not TB?]

Libby (who is just, of course, kidding -- I haven't ever been arrested and I think I want to keep it that way, but who might be slipping out tomorrow to bop that mouse on the head after all, just to see what happens . . .)

Haha, I did have one brush with the police, I'm ashamed to admit. Caught skinny dipping in a local lake when I was like 16. They didn't press charges but it was... awkward. :eek:

[annikak]

Hey- Tuppysmom! I am SO Sorry for you and your lovely dd and horse! Drat the luck indeed. We can turn this, you know...you can drink now and forget all your cares at Rolex....

Flutie- Yes, elephants. Drunk ones at that. Honestly. Cross my heart, hope to die...you know the rest!

Jazzy- what kind of stuff at what kind of gallery?? Send a PM with a link! I wanna see!

So, I have CookiePony's campsite and I am gonna be there after chinese on Friday. With elephants on lables, of course! Thanks CP!!!

But, I am still singing....Where oh where has my snoopy boy gone? Oh where oh where can he be? With his hair cut long and his tan so good, oh where oh where can he be??

Care to join me, Debbie???

[annikak]

Kaytaz- thanks for the hints!! Vanilla...okay! Got it! the camp store does sell it, doesn't it? Otherwise, we will be passing a store I am sure. That okay Cookie??

[Jazzy Lady]

Jazzy- what kind of stuff at what kind of gallery?? Send a PM with a link! I wanna see!



Interior design actually. I'm still a student (professional student... one of those ;)) and the top people's work gets displayed and judged. It's pretty exciting. I could send you a pic when it's set up.

[Debbie]

I'm in annikak! PM me the campsite info if CookiePony is cool with that, and I'll bring some additional beverages. Maybe we can lure Snoops out, too! ;)

Jazzy Lady and TB or not to TB, you girls today, letting things like work and funds stand between you and Rolex. I just don't know what the world is coming to... ;):D:D

[RunForIt]

Yeah, I know what I'm saying. I even asked my OH. Friday or Saturday night (after the Chinese food party) would be fine. We can even bring extra blankets so we can spread them on folks who don't make it back to their hotel rooms.

If you want my campsite and cell phone #s, drop me a PM.

I'll just watch the streaming, go out and spread some blankets on the front yard, watch the ponies eat grass, drink 2 or 3 or 4 to all of you up there making Rolex be real. :winkgrin: :cool:

but I'll PM for all the numbers "just in case"...:cool: I don't think I want to go to Rolex so much as go have fun with all of you!

[Debbie]

tuppysmom, so very sorry to hear that Tony is staying home.

[Jazzy Lady]

I really wish I was going!!!! BOOO! ;)

[RunForIt]

tuppysmom, so very sorry to hear that Tony is staying home.

me too - :( :cry:

[tuppysmom]

Thanks everyone. They'll be out later in the summer. In the meantime, the younger horse will get some good miles at Int and maybe he can move up another level.

[TB or not TB?]

Jazzy Lady and TB or not to TB, you girls today, letting things like work and funds stand between you and Rolex. I just don't know what the world is coming to... ;):D:D

You want an even worse confession? I've never BEEN to Rolex. :eek: I know! I fail. :cry:

[TBCollector]

First Gryffindor, then Rampant Lion...now Tony too?
I am THIS close to selling my ticket...:(

[Debbie]

You want an even worse confession? I've never BEEN to Rolex. :eek: I know! I fail. :cry:


No, no, no, you don't fail. This is simply a failure of the system that has to be resolved! Let's make this a priority for '09. K? Getting there is the only real expense, otherwise you can definitely do Rolex on a limited budget (or you can do it on a really NOT limited budget, but that's not necessary.) :winkgrin:

[LAZ]

Hey--I'm in the campground and I'm escaping the farm for the first time in two years with NO ANIMALS at ALL in tow!

It's been a tough spring and I'd be delighted to hoist a glass or two with fellow COTH's.

I can't remember my campsite #, but it's on the inside edge the outermost loop on the northwest side--Merhow trailer and Blue Ford dually crewcab. Right across from a bunch of other Area VIII people, so it should be a fun area!

[TB or not TB?]

No, no, no, you don't fail. This is simply a failure of the system that has to be resolved! Let's make this a priority for '09. K? Getting there is the only real expense, otherwise you can definitely do Rolex on a limited budget (or you can do it on a really NOT limited budget, but that's not necessary.) :winkgrin:

Okay you're on. If things hadn't been so up in the air with the house selling and this road trip stuff, I'd go this year. In fact I'll put "RK3DE 2009" in my siggy, or would people get the wrong idea? ;)

[CookiePony]

I'm in annikak! PM me the campsite info if CookiePony is cool with that, and I'll bring some additional beverages. Maybe we can lure Snoops out, too! ;)


Yay!!

So snoopy, will you be at Rolex?? Enquiring minds want to know.

YES to vanilla ice cream--there is a Walmart with a grocery section just up the road in Georgetown. The trailer will have a fridge.

I'm thinking Friday should be the night, since Saturday is the Chinese food extravaganza.

Folks, do not be shy about asking me for the campsite info-- I just won't post it here for obvious reasons! :eek: :winkgrin:

[Bensmom]

TB, are you sure we can't stow you away in someone's trunk or something? Since I haven't been in 8 years, I can't guarantee that I can go next year and I would love to meet Tazzy's first US mom! :)

He is outside in his pen playing bitey-face over the electric tape with Harvey the Huge Horse, who belongs to one of my Rolex crew members. Bitey-face is apparently a fascinating game . . . ;)

Libby (who would like to know WTF is up with Florida having MN's weather?!! It is the middle of April, fergoodnesssakes and it is in the 40s!!! :eek: :eek: )

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[TB or not TB?]

Awwh I wish I could! Haha if anyone was driving from Brownsville, TX, I'd hitch a ride no time flat. :winkgrin:

Libby, I'll just come down and visit y'all in FL when we swing through :D I'll bring cheerios for mr. bitey face man! My dogs play that game sometimes. It must be fun :confused:

[Hoof1]

I am new to this chat room and find many of the comments outrageous. As the Technical Adv for courses CMP has the responsibility for making sure the US is competitive Intern. At the same time eventing and for that matter all sports continue to evolve. No where have I heard about Horsemanship and rider skills.Probably because they are too personal. Horsemanship is the issue not safety. The learning, praticing, implementing and execution of proper horsesemanship develop judgement. We have a generation of professionals that have only competed in eventing. When you hear that riders never hack horse out(rider across the country) you should not be surprised that their horses never develop a fifth leg. I am also confused? The tragic deaths at florida HP was over a single jump! Not a course. It has been identified that in both cases riders were riding very fast and missed. Now how is that CMP responsibility. I do not like the new formatt cross country courses because they are not natural nor do they encourage good riding especially at the lower levels. In some cases our Novice and training courses are easier today then years ago. If anyone wants to know why I will share. Oh one last point. Riders are responsible for entering their horses! If you compete a horse over a certain age at any level eventually one of several things are going to happen. You are going to embarrass him because his skills are dimished, he is going to break down or he is going to drop dead.

[flutie1]

I am new to this chat room and find many of the comments outrageous. As the Technical Adv for courses CMP has the responsibility for making sure the US is competitive Intern. At the same time eventing and for that matter all sports continue to evolve. No where have I heard about Horsemanship and rider skills.Probably because they are too personal. Horsemanship is the issue not safety. The learning, praticing, implementing and execution of proper horsesemanship develop judgement. We have a generation of professionals that have only competed in eventing. When you hear that riders never hack horse out(rider across the country) you should not be surprised that their horses never develop a fifth leg. I am also confused? The tragic deaths at florida HP was over a single jump! Not a course. It has been identified that in both cases riders were riding very fast and missed. Now how is that CMP responsibility. I do not like the new formatt cross country courses because they are not natural nor do they encourage good riding especially at the lower levels. In some cases our Novice and training courses are easier today then years ago. If anyone wants to know why I will share. Oh one last point. Riders are responsible for entering their horses! If you compete a horse over a certain age at any level eventually one of several things are going to happen. You are going to embarrass him because his skills are dimished, he is going to break down or he is going to drop dead.

Very well said.

flutie

[Eventer55]

Yes...of course I know of her....very dedicated and talented rider....this was before the addition of Vickery though.

If no one has figured out who you are, I will make 2 phone calls after pouring my merlot tonight and I promise not to "out you" IF I get the right info. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Maybe. . .

and this is totally horse related of course:winkgrin:

[frugalannie]

OK, Annika. I finally figured out which thread you were talking about yesterday.

PSA: Do not try to bring alcoholic beverages on the plane to Rolex, should you be so unlucky as to be flying. I can tell you that they will be confiscated by security. Those guys must have great parties!

Please someone take lots of photos at Rolex and post!

[snoopy]

If no one has figured out who you are, I will make 2 phone calls after pouring my merlot tonight and I promise not to "out you" IF I get the right info. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Maybe. . .

and this is totally horse related of course:winkgrin:



Honestly folks....I am a nobody and certainly not worth the time....

If you could have seen me this morning...hair up in rollers and cold cream dried on my face from the night before...NOT a pretty site.
Even "I" was disappointed.

The reason I do not out myself is that I would feel comprimised in my ability to speak freely and honestly on some issues that are important to me. Can we give it a break? PLEASE.

[annikak]

OK, Annika. I finally figured out which thread you were talking about yesterday.



fun eh??? :-)

too bad you shall not join us, FA...it would be MOST excellent!

[Eventer55]

Sorry, just kidding.

[flyingchange]

snoops - you are too funny. thanks for the morning laugh.



If you could have seen me this morning...hair up in rollers and cold cream dried on my face from the night before...NOT a pretty site.
Even "I" was disappointed.

[lstevenson]

The tragic deaths at florida HP was over a single jump! Not a course. It has been identified that in both cases riders were riding very fast and missed. Now how is that CMP responsibility



Because his courses have become so technical that the riders have to go way too fast at the galloping jumps to make the time after having hooked back to show jump speed or less for every other complex! And because the constant breaking the horse out of it's rhythm, both forward and back, is mentally and physically fatiguing, and the horses are not jumping the galloping jumps as well.

And also, IMO the tables have too vertical a face, making them unsafe to be jumping at a high rate of speed.

[subk]

No where have I heard about Horsemanship and rider skills.
Then you are not very well read. After "Freak Accident" blaming the rider/horse skill is the single most identified cause. You can find reference to that on this web site as well as reading the writings and commentary elsewhere of many individuasl involved in the sport for whom any other explanation would be highly inconvenient.

[RAyers]

Horsemanship is the issue not safety. The learning, praticing, implementing and execution of proper horsesemanship develop judgement. We have a generation of professionals that have only competed in eventing.

Then let's stop people from buying horses that enable them to move up levels and ride at a level of incompetence. Oh, hold it, many riders who have been hurt are pros. So, how are they lacking in horsemanship?


The tragic deaths at florida HP was over a single jump! Not a course.

No, not at single jump. A couple of different jumps on the same course. There is a difference.

It has been identified that in both cases riders were riding very fast and missed.

Who measured their speed? How do you know this? Were they clocked right before the accident?


Nobody is saying the rider's don't have responsibility in this matter but they do not shoulder the ENTIRE responsibility that you would have them do.

Reed

[flutie1]

"... Oh, hold it, many riders who have been hurt are pros. So, how are they lacking in horsemanship?"

C'mon Reed, think about what you just said. Sometimes a great athlete "pushes the good judgement envelope" and takes chances. They are reinforced for this. "Going for it." "Going all out." 99% of the time, they get away with it. In our sport, sadly, it's that 1% that can be deadly.

No one in his/her right mind is saying that it's any one "faction's" entire responsibility for the problems in our sport. EVERYONE is responsible - officials, organizers, designers, riders, coaches, owners - and EVERYONE must bear the blame and work to correct the situation after taking a long, hard look at the role he/she played. I know I am as an organizer. Are you?

And speaking of clocking speed. The results of using a speed gun at Galway earlier this spring are fascinating. And yes, they did measure the speed.

flutie

[Mary in Area 1]

"...

And speaking of clocking speed. The results of using a speed gun at Galway earlier this spring are fascinating. And yes, they did measure the speed.

flutie

They did? What were the results? If this was done, and the results are so fascinating, will you please share these results?

[RAyers]

flutie1,

OK, my mistake. :)

As far as I know though there was no clocking going on at Red Hills. For my own education, how was that done? At the same time there is a frustration from among riders that while many of us are doing all we can to take responsibility, folks keep saying we must take responsibility. I do agree that people can myopic to the point that they put themselves and their horses at risk. Maybe a question that is out there is:

"How much more responsibility can riders take when those who are supposed to teach us that responsibility are being 'irresponsible?'"

Sara M. at Rolex is a great example of a rider taking responsibility so she is a model to be followed.

Yes, the data from Galway is interesting and I suspect things will get even more interesting as we get more speed data. Remember that was an N of one rider. We will get much more data and a better understanding as the season progresses.

Reed

[NeverTime]

For clarification, I read Hoof1's post as a reference not to Red Hills but to Florida Horse Park, where two people died last year. I can't remember the circumstances of the first incident, but Eleanor Brennan died there last fall. And, by most (all?) accounts she was an experienced rider and was going quite fast when they missed.

[ss3777]

"...
No one in his/her right mind is saying that it's any one "faction's" entire responsibility for the problems in our sport. EVERYONE is responsible - officials, organizers, designers, riders, coaches, owners - and EVERYONE must bear the blame and work to correct the situation after taking a long, hard look at the role he/she played. I know I am as an organizer. Are you?

flutie

Truer words were never spoken. I think everyone that engages in these discussions is trying to do their part. Of course great strides are never made with out action, but starting with intelligent discussion is certainly a perfect springboard. There will always be rabble rousers, folks that stick there head in the sand, and people in the middle, thank god for all of it.

I think this quote might be apropo.

"Never cut what you can untie"

[annikak]

Maybe a question that is out there is:

"How much more responsibility can riders take when those who are supposed to teach us that responsibility are being 'irresponsible?'"

Sara M. at Rolex is a great example of a rider taking responsibility so she is a model to be followed.


Reed

Okay, here is my fly- While Sara is a great example, it's because she has great parents that have helped her become the horsewoman that she is. They provide guidance- something that is lacking in many areas of life IMHO.

So, again, it does come back to rider responsibility. Her PARENTS have accepted the risk, as well as helped her along the way. So- I guess what i am getting at is that overall in our world today, that is missing. Parents don't ride or are not horse savvy as the parents a few generations ago, where horses and the horse life was part of how it was.

I think there are great coaches out there- and they do indeed give good advice. But, it's up to the rider/parent/owner to make the correct decisions for their horse. My example I use with the PC'ers is... The loss of one entry fee is less then the follow up vet appts that might happen, or the ER call when you topple off at that trakhaner. But, as "i" (intentional) am the Mean Pony Club Person, I am often not listened to. I am not a pro after all. But when I get into an argument and lose a friendship because I tell the parent that her kid is not ready to move up to training and the parent proceeds to ignore my asked for advice...well, in that we create the crux of the situation...it boils down to people taking responsibility for their own actions.

I think I might be preaching to the choir here- I know a few COTH'ers posting here and every one of them would place the welfare of their own lives, their horses well being above everything else. But, I think, and it's no surprise that this is so, as we are all passionate about this issue so are taking the time, that those this is really directed at don't care/know/partake in such discussions. I don't think that a great deal of what is written on the COTH has much reach when it comes to those that don't want to listen.

But then again, I still think that Eventers as a whole are a great bunch.

[flutie1]

"... For my own education, how was that done?"

With the kind of speed gun used for traffic. Apparently one can get them on E Bay? John Staples has all the information as he was the person responsible.

Yes, I applaud Sara. But what's wrong with this picture? At last year's Rolex, becky pulled up Comet after a couple of uncharacteristic stops because he "didn't feel right." Allegedly (and this is only rumor, but I'm not adverse to believing it given our current climate) she got a bit of static from the selectors for doing so. What's wrong with this picture?

flutie

[RAyers]

"... For my own education, how was that done?"

With the kind of speed gun used for traffic. Apparently one can get them on E Bay? John Staples has all the information as he was the person responsible.

Yes, I applaud Sara. But what's wrong with this picture? At last year's Rolex, becky pulled up Comet after a couple of uncharacteristic stops because he "didn't feel right." Allegedly (and this is only rumor, but I'm not adverse to believing it given our current climate) she got a bit of static from the selectors for doing so. What's wrong with this picture?

flutie

I thought they were talking about Red Hills.

You know how I feel about the selectors. ;) They push so that irresponsible decisions are made.

John Staples and I are working together so I know about the radar gun. We tested it over dinner before he left for Galway. That is part of my speed/accident study. We will combine the radar data with video and GPS to get a whole view of what happens on course and where. Sara M. was going to help us by testing the GPS at Rolex. Instead we will be testing things at Greenwood and COHP.

Reed

[flutie1]

"... We tested it over dinner"

Who ate fastest?

Seriously, you're both welcome to test it at Maui Jim. In fact, I'd love it!

[TB or not TB?]

The tragic deaths at florida HP was over a single jump! Not a course. It has been identified that in both cases riders were riding very fast and missed. Now how is that CMP responsibility.

Not to be argumentative, but let's keep the facts straight - the other two deaths on CMP courses were combinations (Sherelle Duke and Simon Long). So it's a 50/50 split. The single jumps that caused accidents were both tables.

Regarding rider responsibility, this post (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3141941#post3141941) addresses that topic. Just don't want to take this thread too far off course. ;):lol:

[seeuatx]

So, again, it does come back to rider responsibility. Her PARENTS have accepted the risk, as well as helped her along the way. So- I guess what i am getting at is that overall in our world today, that is missing. Parents don't ride or are not horse savvy as the parents a few generations ago, where horses and the horse life was part of how it was.


Unfortunately, Little League parenting has infiltrated every sport and aspect of children's lives. Not only is this type of parent not horsey themselves..... but they push, push, push the kids until they break (literally or figuratively). My own parents are non-horsey, but they supported my efforts monetarily and emotionally. After a bad ride they let my trainer kick my butt, and then were next in line with hugs and "good try"s. They made sure I followed the rules, and instilled a sense of fair play and sportsmanship in me from my earliest memories.

I know jr/yrs whose parents make me call my own just to tell them "thank you". One 14 yo at my barn has been riding not even 2 yrs. She has a great horse that is wonderful, but had no idea what correct work was, she is just now ready for training level dressage and learning to jump. Her Dad comes to the barn every few months and wants to know why she is not learning 2nd level stuff, and makes comments like "you're still only jumping cross rails". He honestly believed that if she worked said horse for 90 minutes rather than 45 he would learn 2x as fast :no:. Thank goodness this girl has a great trainer that stands up to the parents..... because if the dad had his way, she'd be jumping 3ft tomorrow:no:


Yes, I applaud Sara. But what's wrong with this picture? At last year's Rolex, becky pulled up Comet after a couple of uncharacteristic stops because he "didn't feel right." Allegedly (and this is only rumor, but I'm not adverse to believing it given our current climate) she got a bit of static from the selectors for doing so.

That is terrible. Unfortunately it can relate to the above attitude.... it seems that sportsmanship (and in our case) horsemanship falls to the wayside for some people. It is this type of atmosphere (to use an example from another sport) that had Karri Strug making a 2nd run at the pommel horse after fracturing her leg in the 96 olympics. We all remember her collapsing in pain, and being carried to the podium. Are a few points or even olympic medals so important that we make stupid decisions that could ruin the rest of our lives in hopes of getting just a bit ahead now? Good for Becky for making the right decision for herself and her horse.

[LexInVA]

+500 points for telling the truth. Parents need to sit down, strap in, and shut the **** up.

[RAyers]

"... We tested it over dinner"

Who ate fastest?

Seriously, you're both welcome to test it at Maui Jim. In fact, I'd love it!

Nah, John is bigger than me so it was no contest. :D

I just did some quick tests using people running to see if we could even get a reading or if things could somehow disrupt the measurement.

We hope by Maui Jim we will have an integrated system so we will be talking to you!

Reed

[Gnep]

Ah now I get it, thats how you get a dinner-ticket

[SandyUHC]

Well if dinner is involved, I'll come write over and write down the speeds for you.

(Maybe you can work the gun into a fundraiser. Side bets on the fastest samuri?)

[sofiethewonderhorse]

Staples and I are working together so I know about the radar gun. We tested it over dinner before he left for Galway. That is part of my speed/accident study. We will combine the radar data with video and GPS to get a whole view of what happens on course and where.

Forgive my naivete, but I thought this test was done last year (or the year before) at the AEC's.

could be a different study..

Just curious

[RAyers]

Forgive my naivete, but I thought this test was done last year (or the year before) at the AEC's.

could be a different study..

Just curious

As far as anybody we have spoken with, no this was never done. If you know of where any of this is, let me know.

Anyway, we are going to do this at all levels on as many different types of courses as we can get. So, we are going for a more encompassing understanding. That, I know has never been done.

Reed

[LAZ]

I have some friends that wire up drivers/race cars for telemetry feedback to optimise performance. I could check into seeing if any of this would be adaptable and lightweight enough to use on horse/riders if anyone would be interested. The technology is being used in Indycars, so it has to be lightweight.

[tuppysmom]

A friend of ours who trains at the TB in Paris, KY has been using the E Tracker saddle pad for a couple of years. It tracks the rate of aceleration, min and max speed and heart rates. He is interested in eventing and might be able to get the developer of the pad interested in the project.

We are on the road to KY and will be therre in a few hours, haha

[RAyers]

LAZ and tuppysmom,

Can we get together at the Colorado Horse Park at the end of May? Or duriong NAYRC?

This is stuff where a face-to-face meeting is needed. Given that John and I will be there at both times we can get a majority of folks in one place to discuss things.

The big challenge, I see is signal processing and software integration. Anybody want to fund a graduate student? (approx. $80K a year in tuition, benefits and a small stipend). We'll have you as part of the IP for licensing?

Reed

[Thomas_1]

Possibly because his daughter has to ride them. :p What a dumbass comment!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article3736383.ece
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/News/News_Archive/News_in_Brief_30th_April_07.html

[tuppysmom]

We should be at CHP the end of May. I will see about the E tracker pad. I know that there has to be some advance work done in order for it to work other than on a race track.

[InVA]

I think the average canadian WOMAN has them beat....

I don't know who YOU have been partying with but it hasn't been with ME and MY friends...

Canadien women! PiSHAAA!!!

[Gnep]

I think that is rather interesting stuff with the pad.
I used several years ago during HTs a heart monitor on my horse, sheer curiosity, it would save the data every 5 seconds. It was amazing to see how much the heart rate went up bevore a jump, especialy when my horse was able to see and understand a complet combination.
I used it in Prelim at old Trojan and they had that wild water combination, down 3 steps and over that hanging log into that water, that was 50 heart beats plus the moment we got up that little hill.
I bought one of those GPS watches that come with a heart monitor, if one rigs the horse and the rider with heart monitors and collects the speed data, should make for quiet some interesting stuff

[LAZ]

Reed--

I will call my friend that does this and see 1) if he thinks it could be done and 2) if he could meet with you. This may take me a few days. I seriously doubt I could absorb and apply his principles well enough to be much help since I've not been involved in any of that type of research.

I doubt May would work for him, though, here in Indy we have a little sporting event called the Indianapolis 500.... ;)

Lee Ann

LAZ and tuppysmom,

Can we get together at the Colorado Horse Park at the end of May? Or duriong NAYRC?

This is stuff where a face-to-face meeting is needed. Given that John and I will be there at both times we can get a majority of folks in one place to discuss things.

The big challenge, I see is signal processing and software integration. Anybody want to fund a graduate student? (approx. $80K a year in tuition, benefits and a small stipend). We'll have you as part of the IP for licensing?

Reed

[tuppysmom]

We used heart rate monitors on our race horses back in the late '90s. It's amazing what you learn. Like how darn high that can go. and it was great for tracking recoveries. This E Tracker pad does it more, better, best.

On another note, since this thread seems to have it's own life.....

We are on the road again, sort of. We are currently, as of 8pm broke down in Kemmerer, WY. We actually broke down the first time today just 2 hours into the trip. Thought it was the alternator gone bad, but turned out to be loose wires on the starter. This time, yes twice in one day, we had the hose to the high pressure oil pump split and spew oil all over creation. Of course we were literally in the middle of nowhere. No cell service, where's a cop when you need one, had to hike and thumb a ride 20 miles to get cell reception. C

DH called US Rider, and Mike hooked us up with a WY tow truck that hauled us into this
little town on the edge of nowhere. Let me tell you, that was a ride! Great big tow truck, hardly a gauge funtioning, with a chain smokin driver telling stories and pointing out deer and elk while straddling the yellow line. DH sitting on a plastic crate, we were whizzing up and down mnts and around corners, poor old retired horse in the back, good times, right? Might get back on the road tomorrow if the local mechanic can make a new part, but it sounds like the fittings might a problem, or else we'll be here until they can ship the part in from who knows where. This town is at 7000 ft and has snow! Oh well, at least we have our house with us and the horse seems to be just fine. Hand walking a horse around downtown Kemmerer doesn't even draw a second look.

[LAZ]

Tuppysmom--

I've been in Kemmerer while out in WY doing glacial soils research and I can't believe you're even contemplating being able to leave in less than 24 hours...as I recall they had 4 bars to every restaurant.

On a plus side, the mountains must be really pretty this time of year.

How does the E tracker pad work? My heart rate monitor requires gel on the contacts or I lose the horse's heart rate unless its really sweaty.

I used one a lot when doing conditioning for endurance rides, it was really interesting to watch--one horse had a resting rate of 30 BMP, if he saw a cow it immediately shot up well over 100.

[tuppysmom]

Yes the mnts are pretty, all covered with snow. DH and I worked in the backcountry years ago BC, (before children), hiking and camping, doing mineral surveys and stream sediment sampling. So we love mnts.

We did not seek out the bars tonight. Guess we could have tied the horse to the front of the building and gone inside! We have our own stock of wine that we were taking to share at the get together, but we'll just have to get some more in KY.

The pad has pick-ups at the wither and in the girth, the rider has a little antenna on top his helmet that transmitts the facts to the 'puter, or somthin' like that. I've watched it, I've seen the read outs, but I'll get some specific info from Greg when/if we get to KY.