Article in US News & World Reports

[mythical84]

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/erbe/2008/04/10/riding-kills-horses-too.html

Here's my letter to the editor that I sent this morning:
I'm writing in regard to Bonnie Erbe's article "Riding Kills Horses, Too." *Just wanted to make you aware that she got her facts wrong: The competition to which she refers is Red Hills, not "Fair Hills." *Red Hills is a competition in Tallahassee, Florida, held in March, while Fair Hill (no "s") is a competition in Fair Hill, Maryland, held in October. *To the nonhorseperson, this mistake will probably go unnoticed, but to the horseperson this mistake will probably cause them to disregard Ms. Erbe's opinion on the matter. I'm sending a link to the organizers of Fair Hill, as this mention is quite unfair to them.

In the future, if Ms. Erbe would like to write about the sport of eventing, I suggest she first speak with someone from the U.S. Eventing Association. *She can find them at www.useventing.com. *



I'm interested to hear everyone else's thoughts.

[pwynnnorman]

Second, horses are sometimes forced to maintain speeds at the gallop that their hearts simply cannot abide.


Aaarrrgh! How do you reply to what she wrote? I don't see a comment field or anything.

[mjrtango93]

I have more problems with her then you obviously.

1) the horses didn't die of heart attacks, they died from bleeding.
2) they weren't being pushed to hard, Johns horse died at the 8th fence, that is about 2 minutes into a course.
3) There is no way we can force a horse to do something like cross country if they don't want to do it (lets see I weigh 160, Owen weighs 1100, whos going to win that discussion)
4) just because she rides hunters doesn't mean she knows what she is talking about! I went to a jumper show in Sacramento last year and 2 horses died there. 1 in the hunter ring over a fence from an a-fib attack dropped dead mid air, and a jumper that was euthanized after breaking its leg.

Get some facts before you write the article honey!:mad:

[pwynnnorman]

If you mean me, mjrtango93, I was only responding to what I found to be the MOST egregious statement--not the ONLY egregious statement! :eek:

[mythical84]

I clicked on the "Contact Us" and filled in a letter to the editor.

MJTango: You should write in with all those facts! I started in on all that, but didn't have the specifics, and I need to do actual work this morning. I figured a quick post on COTH might generate some more interest for people to write in.

I'll let you all know if I get a response.

[mjrtango93]

No not you, Bonnie Erble. She has so many inaccuracies its insane they let her print that! I have no problem with you pwynn!

[KateDB]

My guess is that the editors at US flubbed that up, since her previous editorial in Scribbs says Red Hills.
Have to say, that the two pieces in some ways hardly sound like the same person wrote them.
I agree with her final paragraph in the Scribbs statement, but the US piece smells a bit of sensationalism.

Funny, I'd again like to see the H/J horse/rider fatality statistics compared to those of Eventing.

[pwynnnorman]

Ooops, sorry, mjrtango93.

OK, where exactly is "Contact us" on that page? Oh, did you sent it to the publication's "contact us"? OK.

Sheesh, though, she sure is opinionated and biased. Take a look at the stands she takes on other issues.

Actually, then again, it is a blog, isn't it? Supposed to be opinionated and biased. Hopefully, as with other blogs, only those who see the world the way she does read what she writes.

[throwurheart]

GAH!!!!!

I am choking and speechless (for once).

[mjrtango93]

I'm most pissed that if you look at the keyword search on the bottom that it has "animal abuse" as one of them!

[sharri13]

Would you mind providing the email address to the editor?
I will write a response, and I am considering including the "drug thread" from the hunter/jumper section.
Ignorance is bliss but very harmful.

[M. O'Connor]

"pushing animals to unhuman lengths..."

Um--they ARE unhumans. If she's going to make a habit of writing such articles, she may want to review her vocabulary. There is a big difference between unhuman and inhumane.

[bambam]

wow- fact check much Ms. Erble?
The is much quicker to list the facts she got right than the statements that are wrong. :no::no:
This is just a blog right?

[lesson junkie]

As a hunter rider/eventing fan, most hunter riders have NO CLUE as to the horsemanship required of eventing. That said, it is our responsibility in any discipline to look to our horses first. As to not being able to "force" horses to jump, you can train horses to do anything-remember war horses charging cannon fire? Horses have been dying forever in service to human ego. The eventing community is very forthright in confronting the problem-kudos, and I wish we hunter riders were as brave in examining our discipline.

[bludini]

Actually, then again, it is a blog, isn't it? Supposed to be opinionated and biased. Hopefully, as with other blogs, only those who see the world the way she does read what she writes.

The problem is, blogs are taken as "God's Honest Truth" rather than simply someone spouting their own (humble) opinion. The responses build to the point where there's a fire out of control in no time. PETA steps in, uses the uninformed or partial truths as facts and evidence and WE (equine sports enthusiasts) become the bad guys, the abusers.

To the point of horses have similar accidents and fatalities in many of our sports, an organization like PETA doesn't care if we point at the other sports and say looky looky, they have problems too. We are ALL culpable, in their ignorant eyes.

I, and I'm sure all of you, do not want someone coming onto my farm and saying, "You are an abuser simply because you own horses, because we read on X obscure blog(s) that you are all abusers. Therefore, we are going to confiscate your poor, abused horses and take care of them in the way we deem appropriate." Meanwhile, they have no clue, limited resources, and my horses become actual victims of neglect and are finally euthenized because the confiscating agency cannot care for them as I did, as you did.

Sounds far-fetched, doesn't it.

[flyingchange]

What I don't get is that there is this huge outcry on this BB to make this sport safer for horses and humans alike, but when the press (an outsider) writes about it, the person is vilified. What are you guys afraid of?

I'm sorry, but it's time for eventing to either put up and shut up or reap what it has sown.

[sharri13]

Flyingchange - Have you not read the article? Have you not noticed the vast inaccuracies? I think we can all agree that there is a request for change, a safe evolution, for the sport of eventing. However, if an outsider is going to make claims and references, they should be accurate - even if they are biased.

[see u at x]

What I don't get is that there is this huge outcry on this BB to make this sport safer for horses and humans alike, but when the press (an outsider) writes about it, the person is vilified. What are you guys afraid of?

I'm sorry, but it's time for eventing to either put up and shut up or reap what it has sown.

I don't think the problem is that it's an outsider writing about it. The problem is that this particular outsider who wrote about it didn't get their facts straight. I don't even event, and I found her comments ridiculous.

[mjrtango93]

Flyingchange - Have you not read the article? Have you not noticed the vast inaccuracies? I think we can all agree that there is a request for change, a safe evolution, for the sport of eventing. However, if an outsider is going to make claims and references, they should be accurate - even if they are biased.

Exactly!

[magnolia73]

It is poorly written... but then it is USA Today.

[Glimmerglass]

It is poorly written... but then it is USA Today.

Errr - no.

US News & World Report is owned by real estate mogul Mort Zuckerman who also owns the NY Daily News.

USA Today is owned by Gannett and more often then not is favorable toward horse sports owing a number of key founders being riders and/or owners of horses

[magnolia73]

:)Oh god- that sounded like something one would see in USA Today or, well frankly posted on any internet BB. Because people get stuff wrong online all the time.

I think it is a liability to have all of these random blogger/columnists associated with newspapers. They have a bunch at the Charlotte Observer and fact checking is just not done.

[JAM]

I'm with flyingchange. I actually don't see "vast inaccuracies" in her blog. She was clearly mistaken in calling the event Fair Hills instead of Red Hills, but let's face it, that is a minor nit. The use of the term "heart attack" rather than pulmonary hemorrhage was also mistaken, though I could forgive her for that since the Red Hills press release reporting on the post-mortems states that pulmonary hemorrhage is "similar to sudden death from heart disorder" during exertion.

More broadly, the basic point she is making -- that horses as well as humans are dying during cross-country -- is undeniably true and, as flyingchange suggests, is something many people on this forum have been saying for a long time.

[bosox]

Go Mob Go!

Before you crucify her---and before I give my her support--I will let you know that she is a good friend of mine. I don't call many friends---but I am honored that she is my friend.

Ever since I met Bonnie 6 years ago--she has always been an animal activist. She isn't a "peta-crazed" person that says it is inhumane to own animals. She has a few dogs and owns horses. She loves these animals completely and with her whole heart. She loves all animals! I have seen her rescue the most unwanted animals and creatures. One night after a rain storm...on a dark and curvey road- I stopped my truck and told Bonnie "You are nuts. Get back in your car and go home." A bunch of frogs/toads had come out onto the road. She was gathering them up and putting them back into the woods so that other drivers didn't run them over. She has taken in strays, been part of dog-caravans, saved peacocks, given support to rescues and will always do her best to save an animal. I even saw her and her husband try to save a deer that was hit by a car.

Bonnie did check the USEA website for her info....and the USEA still reports Rowdy as having a heart attack. http://useventing.com/competitions.php?id=1409 She also personally wrote Kevin and waited for his reply before she went to press. Was this at Fair Hill? No...but she is correct when she says that first and foremost injured all too often on artificially pumped-up courses So stop nit-picking the small stuff and let the message get out there. Our sport needs change! The Times had a few facts wrong as well but the average non-horse person will not understand these facts. I had an aunt write me this week when I sent out my brag about my kid winning the small pony races at Roedown. I mentioned we had a tack change...and her question to me was, "what is tack?" Let us make sure we don't forget the bigger issues at hand. Our sport needs changes!

complete a course that could easily have been made equally challenging yet less dangerous. Is this so far off what we eventers have been saying?

Do I agree w/Bonnie on all her views? NO! but I know where her heart is and I know that she was trying to get the story out that in the end will force the governing bodies to listen to us and the public. I leave you with her closing sentence. I think that is the point all of us have been trying to make for the last few weeks! People do come first but when you love an animal--you try to do right by them It's time to make eventing and all equine sports safer for the horses, too.

[dgm]

I can't really manage to get fired up over this one either. She could've been more correct, but it sounds to me that her message is more "Let's make some changes" than "Eventers are evil". She's quick to acknowledge that it's not the most dangerous sport for horses, and wraps up with "It's time to make eventing and all equine sports safer for the horses, too."

And as for the people tempted to dismiss her opinion because she does hunters - as an owner of seven horses, she's probably been in the horse world long enough to make some connections that extend outside of the hunter world. It's probably not fair to assume she has no idea what she's talking about.

[bambam]

well, in addition to her smaller inaccuracies, her whole premise is that these horses died at Red Hills and die of heart attacks at other competitions because they are "forced to maintain speeds at the gallop that their hearts simply cannot abide." This is simply untrue- not only that they were not heart attacks but that they were pushed to inhumane speeds and the need to maintain that speed was too much for their hearts and is what killed them. I mean what part of that statement/premise is correct? Even if you think pulmonary aneurysm is caused by excessive exertion (something for which my understanding is that there is no medical/scientific support- at least at this point), it was not a result of maintaining speeds that are inhumane (as opposed to Ms. Erble's "inhuman" ;)).
Is she correct that we should make the sport safer for our equine parnters? sure! But as a resporter, I think she has an obligation to make sure her factual premise is correct.

[geronimo!]

USEA President Baumgardner told me the necropsies at Red Hills showed the horses died of pulmonary events. If it's bleeding versus heart attacks that's a distinction without much of a difference. The point is, the horses were stressed beyond their natural capacities which resulted in their deaths. If you don't have sympathy for them, you are in error my friend and it's a disappointment to me that people who show horses, no matter what the discipline, do not feel that is wrong. To treat horses like ribbon machines is inhuman.
Re: Fair versus Red Hills, yes that was an error on my part which I'm having corrected.
Re: Hunter riders not knowing anything about eventing, please hold yourself back before making statements so easily proven inaccurate. I trained with the Bartles in England and have shown and trained dressage, jumpers and combined training in the states.

I have more problems with her then you obviously.

1) the horses didn't die of heart attacks, they died from bleeding.
2) they weren't being pushed to hard, Johns horse died at the 8th fence, that is about 2 minutes into a course.
3) There is no way we can force a horse to do something like cross country if they don't want to do it (lets see I weigh 160, Owen weighs 1100, whos going to win that discussion)
4) just because she rides hunters doesn't mean she knows what she is talking about! I went to a jumper show in Sacramento last year and 2 horses died there. 1 in the hunter ring over a fence from an a-fib attack dropped dead mid air, and a jumper that was euthanized after breaking its leg.

Get some facts before you write the article honey!:mad:

[JAM]

I could be wrong, but I don't know if anybody knows what is causing the pulmonary hemorrhages in the horses, though it seems to be occurring with disturbingly greater frequency in recent years. No research seems to have been done into the subject, though what Capt. Phillips would describe as "smurfs" on this board appear, admirably, to be starting the effort.

So, she could be wrong, or she could be correct that, under modern conditions and rules, forcing the horse to maintain these speeds, not just in the event itself, but in multiple events over a period of time (with horses running more frequently due among other things to the short format), is indeed inhumane.

Whom do we blame -- the person from outside the sport who offers a view that may or may not be erroneous, or the experts and rules-makers within the sport who change the rules and conditions without, apparently, having done any, much less adequate, research into the effects of those changes on the horses?

[Jealoushe]

USEA President Baumgardner told me the necropsies at Red Hills showed the horses died of pulmonary events. If it's bleeding versus heart attacks that's a distinction without much of a difference. The point is, the horses were stressed beyond their natural capacities which resulted in their deaths.


sooo, you were the vet involved in making decisions about what happened to these horses?

[geronimo!]

MJRTango93: First, which Sacramento show are you referring to and which horses died? If you're being honest and forthright, I'll look it up and if it's true, I'll write about it next time I write on this topic. If you don't I'll assume you made it up.
I'm not saying horses never die at hunter jumper shows. But the data prove it occurs much, much less often at hunter/jumper shows than at horse trials. The worst horse sport of all is the track and I pointed that out in my work.
Second: There's no way we can force a horse to do something against its will? How about go to a killer buyer sale? Or stay in a stall 24/7, or explode onto the race track, or die trying to get through a cross country course. When you make a ridiculous statement like that, it makes me think you're living on a different planet.
Please, offer up some facts, "honey" before you make such blanket statements.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

USEA President Baumgardner told me the necropsies at Red Hills showed the horses died of pulmonary events. If it's bleeding versus heart attacks that's a distinction without much of a difference. The point is, the horses were stressed beyond their natural capacities which resulted in their deaths.


Not quite....it also means they could have had a natural defect that showed up under physical exercise.....horses have died from this often. Out in their fields....some have dropped dead standing in their stalls. They do not know EXACTLY why two horses died at Red Hills. They know the basic cause...but those horses could have died at home in their fields at a walk from that cause. BECAUSE two died a one event....it does require that it be more fully investigated. Which it is. But that cause of death is not well studied. Horses can die from extreme stress...but if that was the only cause...as the blog indicates....more then two horses would have died or collapsed. It doesn't undercut the saddness of losing the two horses....nor diminish the need to look hard at our sport and make things safer...but the bottom line is there is just NOT enough facts known at this time to make the above quoted opinion.

[pwynnnorman]

Originally Posted by geronimo! http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3139383#post3139383)
USEA President Baumgardner told me the necropsies at Red Hills showed the horses died of pulmonary events. If it's bleeding versus heart attacks that's a distinction without much of a difference. The point is, the horses were stressed beyond their natural capacities which resulted in their deaths.


Wait. Is that true? I thought I read somewhere that those horses could have died that way just playing around, turned out in a field. Is that wrong? I haven't kept up with what the tests/research has concluded.

[bosox]

you were the vet involved in making decisions about what happened to these horses?

I don't understand what this is suppose to mean?:confused:

[FrittSkritt]

Huh! Too bad, I used to work at US News, I could have set her straight!! :winkgrin:

[bornfreenowexpensive]

one more thing....I've personally know several horses who have died from this cause. One in the hunt field, one at a hunter show, and two at home out in their own field doing nothing...luckily not my own horses but those of people I know. Of the ones that I've known and after talking with several vets....often you have no warning of the defect. None of the horses that I know were being pushed beyond what a normal horse can take...and the two in thier fields were doing nothing but trot or canter accross the field on their own accord. More research will hopefully go into this....but what one vet has said is sometimes even when you know of the defect, there is nothing that can be done. It is why many eventers regularly listen to their horses hearts...why vets listen in a PPE. Trying to find any indication if a horse is more likely prone to this sort of death....because it can kill not only the horse but also the rider...and has killed riders.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Wait. Is that true? I thought I read somewhere that those horses could have died that way just playing around, turned out in a field. Is that wrong? I haven't kept up with what the tests/research has concluded.


No she is not correct....these horses both could have died from this cause playing around turned out in their field...or even standing in their stall. Nothing more is known by the vets that has been announced.

If the horses were push beyond what normal horses in this sport can take.....more "normal" horses would have been dead or in serious distress at the end the of the course.

still very sad....and I hope more is learned to prevent it but there is not enough known to make the statement that the course killed them.

[bambam]

USEA President Baumgardner told me the necropsies at Red Hills showed the horses died of pulmonary events. If it's bleeding versus heart attacks that's a distinction without much of a difference. The point is, the horses were stressed beyond their natural capacities which resulted in their deaths. .
See my problem with the blog is that it makes the leap from these horses died of pulmonary events to the highlighted claim that the stress of the events directly caused their deaths- a claim which is wholly unsupported by the necropsies, the vet opinions published about the necropsies and any medical evidence. And yet the assertion is made without ever acknowledging that this is not an actual "fact" but rather the author's unsupported supposition.
The one horse I have seen die from a pulmonay event was a little hunter pony who collapsed and died in the first 10 minutes of the first lesson he was doing that day and before the lesson had moved beyond walking to even trotting let alone galloping at sustained inhumane speeds.
I actually don't dispute the fact that these pulmonary deaths as well as the one other one this year I know of at events should be looked into and research done as to whether the stress of running an event can stress a healthy horse enough stress to cause a spontaneous pulmonary death. What I have a problem with is using a wholly unsupported supposition as a "fact" to support the claim that basically eventing is cruel. If you want to make the argument that eventing needs to be made safer, how about doing it with an argument based on facts?
And I think this despite the fact that I love my horses and do not consider them ribbon machines (and check their records, they are not :lol:)
oh wait- I have to correct my statement- I have another problem with your blog. The fact that it states (or implies- don't remember which) that the lives of event horses are risked merely to feed our egos. Not a big fan of that statement.

[mjrtango93]

Ok so since this has turned around on me:

1) Pulmanary events are not always caused by exertion! I own a bleeder, a currently fat(but thats beside the point) semi-retired ex-eventer. His worst episodes where in pasture! Yes in pasture under no work what-so-ever. He had 2 a-fib attacks as well and his worst bleed in turn out. How many times have you heard friends have horses drop dead in turn out from some sort of pulmanary event? We have personally had 2 at our barn, yes one was old and was probably more from age then anything but we had a young warmblood as well. The spin you put in the article can be mis-construed very easily. If I mis-understood your point I am sorry, and apologize for that. How it comes across to me is that these riders were putting pressure on these horses and caused there death. Sometimes horses just have a genetic pre-disposition to it and they could be in there stalls and have this happen.

2) The jumper show was Brookside in Elk Grove. I can do more looking tonight to get you the date. We go there several times a year so I can't remember which one. And since I'm thinking about it, was actually in 2006 as my horse was laid off the end of last year and didn't go. (but I still went and watched so maybe it was 2007)

3) None of those horses were being pushed beyond what they can do. Every sport that rides a horse trains them to do certain things. Just as hunters are trained to do there job. Again the spin there is that these horses were being forced to do something they didn't want to. I personally knew Monty and know for a fact that horse loved being out galloping and jumping and there was no pushing there at all. If a horse doesn't want to jump something you know as well as I do that you can't make them do it. We are not going to win that battle. Are there horses out there at events that don't necessarily LOVE there job, sure but you will find that in all sports. Not just eventers.

We all agree things need to change in eventing and USEA has created several task forces to do just that. I am well aware that eventing is risky and can have devistating effects, but so can walking across the street. Statistically eventing has no more deaths/catastrophic injuries then other sports. My problem is the overall negative vibe the article has that is extending beyond the horse world that people will read it and now think we are all horse abusers and kill our horses to feed our ego. I would do anything for my boys and only want the best for them. Yes get the facts out to the public and don't sugar coat it, but such a degrading spin on it isn't required. Horse sports as a whole do not need negative press to get people fired up.

[seeuatx]

Please, offer up some facts, "honey" before you make such blanket statements.

Says the pot to the kettle.

The point is, the horses were stressed beyond their natural capacities which resulted in their deaths
So the first horse I ever saw die....at a hunter show, in the 2'6. Does this apply too?
My horse has a condition which would predispose him to a similar issue. I know it is there and take precautions, but according to my vet, my horse could just as easily suffer this sleeping in his stall, playing in the field, trotting a 20m circle, or out galloping. So would sleeping in his stall "stress him beyond natural capacities"?

'm not saying horses never die at hunter jumper shows. But the data prove it occurs much, much less often at hunter/jumper shows than at horse trials
What data? What sources? My understanding is that eventing, racing, and endurance are the only equestrian sports which record and investigate these thing. I could be wrong, and would love to know where that info is.

I agree with you in that it is not just people being hurt, and yes things need to change. But what I have a problem with is when other disciplines point fingers without looking at their own playground. Would you also advocate against lunging a horse down for 3 hours, drugging, short martingales, studded nosebands. Were you against GM when a horse died in his clinic after being impaled on a metal pole. What about people who put pvc chips in their open front boots? Just remember when you point a finger you have three pointing back at you.

Yes, things need to change. No one here will disagree with you there. But the difference is that eventers are being introspective and pushing for our own change. Can you say the same?

[Jealoushe]

I don't understand what this is suppose to mean?:confused:

I was just asking, since the author claims to KNOW that this was what caused the horses death, she said "The point is, the horses were stressed beyond their natural capacities which resulted in their deaths." Otherwise she is blabbing on about something she nor anyone really knows at this point.

[mythical84]

Re: Hunter riders not knowing anything about eventing, please hold yourself back before making statements so easily proven inaccurate. I trained with the Bartles in England and have shown and trained dressage, jumpers and combined training in the states.

But you didn't say this in your article. You only identified yourself as a hunter rider. So really, those are the facts that we were presented with.

[Debbie]

We (participants in this BB community) have been predicting this article for years. Kinda hard to get in a tizzy that it finally happened. This BB is a public "document" of sorts not a closed community that only those with the best interests of the sport are allowed to view. We're not just talking amongst ourselves here, so the fact that circumstances in the larger public domain have caused people to start listening shouldn't be that surprising.

[geronimo!]

SO, WHAT JUMPER SHOW WAS IT IN SACRAMENTO WHERE TWO JUMPER HORSES WERE KILLED? DATE/NAME OF SHOW, ETC. OR DID YOU MAKE THAT UP?
Says the pot to the kettle.


So the first horse I ever saw die....at a hunter show, in the 2'6. Does this apply too?
My horse has a condition which would predispose him to a similar issue. I know it is there and take precautions, but according to my vet, my horse could just as easily suffer this sleeping in his stall, playing in the field, trotting a 20m circle, or out galloping. So would sleeping in his stall "stress him beyond natural capacities"?


What data? What sources? My understanding is that eventing, racing, and endurance are the only equestrian sports which record and investigate these thing. I could be wrong, and would love to know where that info is.

I agree with you in that it is not just people being hurt, and yes things need to change. But what I have a problem with is when other disciplines point fingers without looking at their own playground. Would you also advocate against lunging a horse down for 3 hours, drugging, short martingales, studded nosebands. Were you against GM when a horse died in his clinic after being impaled on a metal pole. What about people who put pvc chips in their open front boots? Just remember when you point a finger you have three pointing back at you.

Yes, things need to change. No one here will disagree with you there. But the difference is that eventers are being introspective and pushing for our own change. Can you say the same?

[geronimo!]

WHERE DID THIS HUNTER HORSE DEATH OCCUR AND WHEN? JUST CURIOUSSays the pot to the kettle.


So the first horse I ever saw die....at a hunter show, in the 2'6. Does this apply too?
My horse has a condition which would predispose him to a similar issue. I know it is there and take precautions, but according to my vet, my horse could just as easily suffer this sleeping in his stall, playing in the field, trotting a 20m circle, or out galloping. So would sleeping in his stall "stress him beyond natural capacities"?


What data? What sources? My understanding is that eventing, racing, and endurance are the only equestrian sports which record and investigate these thing. I could be wrong, and would love to know where that info is.

I agree with you in that it is not just people being hurt, and yes things need to change. But what I have a problem with is when other disciplines point fingers without looking at their own playground. Would you also advocate against lunging a horse down for 3 hours, drugging, short martingales, studded nosebands. Were you against GM when a horse died in his clinic after being impaled on a metal pole. What about people who put pvc chips in their open front boots? Just remember when you point a finger you have three pointing back at you.

Yes, things need to change. No one here will disagree with you there. But the difference is that eventers are being introspective and pushing for our own change. Can you say the same?

[see u at x]

SO, WHAT JUMPER SHOW WAS IT IN SACRAMENTO WHERE TWO JUMPER HORSES WERE KILLED? DATE/NAME OF SHOW, ETC. OR DID YOU MAKE THAT UP?

Typing in all caps is rude. It makes it look like you're shouting, which is entirely unnecessary. Also, I think you got seeuatx confused with mjrtango, as mjrtango was the one who was at the Sacramento show. So, no need shouting at her about Sacramento as she wasn't the one there.

[seeuatx]

SO, WHAT JUMPER SHOW WAS IT IN SACRAMENTO WHERE TWO JUMPER HORSES WERE KILLED? DATE/NAME OF SHOW, ETC. OR DID YOU MAKE THAT UP?

Ok, excuse me, but I am not from CA....never been.I never made that comment, so no need to yell or call me a liar. You seem to have an issue getting your facts straight before jumping off the deep end. I BTW never accused you of lying, I simply asked where your info was from because I was interested.

The accident I saw happened at the Kentucky Horse Park and I was mistaken it was Pony Club Jumping (not hunters), and 2'6-2'9 division. Horse had an aneurysm over the 5th fence ( I believe). circa 2000ish.

However there was an accident thread on the H/J forum several months ago. Perhaps you would do well to read some of those stories.

[geronimo!]

wasn't screaming at you or anyone. it's easier for me to separate out "speakers" from each other if one's in cap's or ital's and the other is not. call me technologically challenged but i can't do ital's on this page.
bonnie

[Jazzy Lady]

Before coming onto a BB and accusing people of making things up, perhaps you should get your facts straight before you put things in print.

You are WAY off base when you say that the fate of those two horses was directly linked to their inability to perform what was being asked of them. Both of these horses were in top phyisical shape. Both these horses lived to run cross country. Both these horses had owners and riders that care for them impeccably and both had the highest level of vetrinary care and assistance pre-Red Hills.

Your blanket statements are very mis-informed. Perhaps you should read the results of the necropsies before posting such blanket statements about the death of these two lovely horses.

[geronimo!]

[QUOTE=mjrtango93;3139540]Ok so since this has turned around on me:

1) Pulmanary events are not always caused by exertion! I own a bleeder, a currently fat(but thats beside the point) semi-retired ex-eventer. His worst episodes where in pasture! Yes in pasture under no work what-so-ever.

mjrtango93: I know as does anyone who's spent time around horses they die of pulmonary events in the field or in their stalls. Similarly, humans die of heart attacks in their sleep, sometimes. But since we are human and we understand that at certain levels of over-exertion horses horses are much more likely to die of or have a pulmonary event, we have a duty not to push them to ridiculous levels. At that point, they become ribbon machines and that is inhumane on our part. This is true whether in eventing or in any other equine sport.
And yes, please do get me more data on the California show. Thank you.

[geronimo!]

As I said earlier, I got my information from Kevin Baumgardner who has posted on the USEA website that horse safety has become a concern for the eventing community. Please get your information right before wrongly accusing others of inaccuracy.
Before coming onto a BB and accusing people of making things up, perhaps you should get your facts straight before you put things in print.

You are WAY off base when you say that the fate of those two horses was directly linked to their inability to perform what was being asked of them. Both of these horses were in top phyisical shape. Both these horses lived to run cross country. Both these horses had owners and riders that care for them impeccably and both had the highest level of vetrinary care and assistance pre-Red Hills.

Your blanket statements are very mis-informed. Perhaps you should read the results of the necropsies before posting such blanket statements about the death of these two lovely horses.

[Sparky Boy]

I'm with flyingchange. I actually don't see "vast inaccuracies" in her blog. She was clearly mistaken in calling the event Fair Hills instead of Red Hills, but let's face it, that is a minor nit. The use of the term "heart attack" rather than pulmonary hemorrhage was also mistaken, though I could forgive her for that since the Red Hills press release reporting on the post-mortems states that pulmonary hemorrhage is "similar to sudden death from heart disorder" during exertion.

More broadly, the basic point she is making -- that horses as well as humans are dying during cross-country -- is undeniably true and, as flyingchange suggests, is something many people on this forum have been saying for a long time.

I have to agree with JAM here 100%.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=mjrtango93;3139540]Ok so since this has turned around on me:

1) Pulmanary events are not always caused by exertion! I own a bleeder, a currently fat(but thats beside the point) semi-retired ex-eventer. His worst episodes where in pasture! Yes in pasture under no work what-so-ever.

mjrtango93: I know as does anyone who's spent time around horses they die of pulmonary events in the field or in their stalls. Similarly, humans die of heart attacks in their sleep, sometimes. But since we are human and we understand that at certain levels of over-exertion horses horses are much more likely to die of or have a pulmonary event, we have a duty not to push them to ridiculous levels. At that point, they become ribbon machines and that is inhumane on our part. This is true whether in eventing or in any other equine sport.
And yes, please do get me more data on the California show. Thank you.


Once again I am asking, are you a vet? Your post is simply your opinion, not FACT.

Yes horse AND rider safety is a concern in eventing right now and always has been, not because horses are getting pushed to "ridiculous levels" to quote you. There are so many factors involved it is very presumptuous to blame it all on the eventers for "pushing" their horses.

My friends horse died out hacking from a pulmonary attack/bleeding. He was fit and just out walking. You really need to do some research.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

As I said earlier, I got my information from Kevin Baumgardner who has posted on the USEA website that horse safety has become a concern for the eventing community. Please get your information right before wrongly accusing others of inaccuracy.


your information wasn't incorrect....YOUR leap to a conclusion was. You were not there, did not witness it, are not a vet.....NO one has made the conclusion that you posit because there is NO factual support for such a conclusion at this time. Yes these horses died....but that doesn't mean they were unreasonably pushed. Do you really think their riders/owners would have competed these horses had they thought the horses were going to die...and risk dying themselves? A lot of other horses finished that course just fine and full of run....the outcry on this BB is about the direction of the sport.....not because anyone has any factually founded belief that these horses would still be alive and not at risk of dying from this cause had they not run. The current understanding is that these horses were unknowing at risk of dying from this cause at any time.

You may be a nice person...and an animal lover....but this conclusion shows very amateur analysis, poor logic and a lack of knowledge......since it is so off base, many knowledgeable horsepeple are likely going to tune you out.

ETA: If the point of your blog is to educate and cause change....I would think that you wouldn't want to tune out people who actually have a stake in getting that change done and who could support your cause. Think through your analysis better....get some more knowledgeable input rather then the bare bone press release....and post a blog that might get some better discussion and might really get some change. The research now being sought will help all horses....that might be a good focus....not caring about tracking down every horse that has died from this cause for your blog. Although that is the other thing that is coming out of all this....the push for better recording of statistics and information....it should be happening in all equestrian sports....without information and statistics, little can be done to improve anything....we will just be taking a gamble with any change or a gamble changing nothing.

[CookiePony]

...we understand that at certain levels of over-exertion horses horses are much more likely to die of or have a pulmonary event....

But we don't know that. That's why the USEA has formed a research group (http://www.useventing.com/education.php?id=1466). You left out that part.

[mjrtango93]

SO, WHAT JUMPER SHOW WAS IT IN SACRAMENTO WHERE TWO JUMPER HORSES WERE KILLED? DATE/NAME OF SHOW, ETC. OR DID YOU MAKE THAT UP?

Relax there G! I was the one that saw the 2 in Sac not the poster you are quoting, and as I said I will look that up for you tonight when I get home and have my calendar of which ones we went to. They have about 30 shows a year there.

[J Swan]

Told ya so. It's no accident that the keywords are "animal abuse".

Y'all wanted publicity - you got it. Now try and control the misinformation and errors that make it around the world before you've had your breakfast.
:no:



http://www.usnews.com/blogs/erbe/2008/04/10/riding-kills-horses-too.html

Here's my letter to the editor that I sent this morning:
I'm writing in regard to Bonnie Erbe's article "Riding Kills Horses, Too." *Just wanted to make you aware that she got her facts wrong: The competition to which she refers is Red Hills, not "Fair Hills." *Red Hills is a competition in Tallahassee, Florida, held in March, while Fair Hill (no "s") is a competition in Fair Hill, Maryland, held in October. *To the nonhorseperson, this mistake will probably go unnoticed, but to the horseperson this mistake will probably cause them to disregard Ms. Erbe's opinion on the matter. I'm sending a link to the organizers of Fair Hill, as this mention is quite unfair to them.

In the future, if Ms. Erbe would like to write about the sport of eventing, I suggest she first speak with someone from the U.S. Eventing Association. *She can find them at www.useventing.com (http://www.useventing.com). *



I'm interested to hear everyone else's thoughts.

[Aimee Thanatogenus]

It is one thing to incite change within the sport. Quite another to invoke fear and misunderstanding amongst those who don't or barely understand what it is at all.
She should know better than that.
And, besides, she rides Hunters. Send her out really hunting, then I might actually respect her opinion. Nothing like an ammie mommy who knows nothing about everything.

[bosox]

And, besides, she rides Hunters. Send her out really hunting, then I might actually respect her opinion. Nothing like an ammie mommy who knows nothing about everything.

Isn't this what everyone had a problem w/her doing? Making general statements w/o knowing all the facts or getting those facts straight? I don't understand how it is wrong for her to assume things but not for you to make assumtions that she just "rides Hunters"

I can't stand the idea of standing at a ring waiting hours for my trip. Anymore. However, a great hunter round is a thing of beauty. Yes you can have a beastie that knows his job and just goes on auto around the ring. However, some of those hunter riders are very nice riders.

She has hunted. She owns a horse trained by one of the MFH of a Maryland hunt who is well-respected around here. She hunted many times as his personal guest. Her horse that she shows and wins on--is not an easy ride. He also is a very forward hunt horse.

I agree w/you that we need to incite change not fear but if someone has a public forum...wouldn't you want to help them understand your points so that they can get the message out there correctly? I believe the old saying is "...you catch more flies with honey..." Not bash them for just riding hunters?:no:

[Jealoushe]

So.....she hunts often (or did) and shows hunters but think us "eventers" push our horses beyond reason and thats why they hemmorage thus we are abusers? Alllllllllrighty then.

[Aimee Thanatogenus]

Then, if she has hunted, why doesn't she realize what Eventing is about?
It's a vestigial part of the cavalry tradition. It is a test. It's not a pretty horse who you need to look pretty on for a few minutes to complete a round.
Yes, a beautiful round is beautiful. It's not the same thing as Eventing.

She's shilling her bit of knowledge. I suggest she sign up for a Novice one star, just to see what it is like.
It is not 'unhuman' and change should happen. The problems are less tangible for laymen.

CMP has tickled the fancy of Americans for too long. Let him go back home and return to his horse trading gig where he would flip over rearers and other unmentionable horse dealer crap.

We need to wise up INSIDE the sport, not with some poorly researched blog by a adult ammie.

Tell her that for me, will you? :yes:

[bosox]

So.....she hunts often (or did) and shows hunters but think us "eventers" push our horses beyond reason and thats why they hemmorage thus we are abusers? Alllllllllrighty then.

So what are you saying?:confused:

That people who hunt push their horses beyond reason? :confused:

I event, I hunt, I used to ride hunters, I used to ride jumpers. That does not equal abuse. However, I also wrote USEA and believe that Eventing needs an overhaul for the betterment of our sport and our future.

ETA:I guess I read her article and see that she wants the sport to be safer for horses. Fences that don't fall down or trip a horse or striding that is a bit off is dangerous. The article states that the courses should not be some techno ride to be a challenge for both athletes on course? Is that not what has been said for weeks on this board?

That is the whole point! Make Eventing safer. If I missed why I should be on anyother bandwagon...let me know. I am off to go ride my beastie and enjoy spring!

[tenacity]

It is an OPINION column. She has every right to state her opinion on the topic, as many of us do on this forum and others. The author is a rider and horseowner, not an enemy condemning our sport.

It is again very sad to see the author (and other disciplines:no:) being so aggressively and personally attacked for stating a concern over the welfare of horses.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

It is an OPINION column. She has every right to state her opinion on the topic, as many of us do on this forum and others. The author is a rider and horseowner, not an enemy condemning our sport.

It is again very sad to see the author (and other disciplines:no:) being so aggressively and personally attacked for stating a concern over the welfare of horses.


her intent may be in the right place....but her unfounded conclusion that the cause of these horses death was because they were unreasonably pushed.....takes away from any such good intentions. That is what has people in an uproar about. It takes away from the rest of her points. I have nothing against her personally...and very few of these post (although not all) have been attacking her personally (or other disciplines). They are attacking her conclusions and her opinions that the posters believe are without merit.....and in the end, that is each person's opinion as well.....just as others can post an opinion in support. I don't have a huge issue with the blog....it is just a shame that by not thinking though her analysis more...it comes off as a knee jeck reaction. She could have had a much more persuasive opinion. Instead....my knee jerk reaction is to tune it out or to become defensive....and that isn't constructive to the good intent of improving safety.

[flyingchange]

It is an OPINION column. She has every right to state her opinion on the topic, as many of us do on this forum and others. The author is a rider and horseowner, not an enemy condemning our sport.

It is again very sad to see the author (and other disciplines:no:) being so aggressively and personally attacked for stating a concern over the welfare of horses.

Agree completely.

And it is completely unnecessary to disparage other disciplines in this "discussion."

If you don't like what she said, then write your own opinion column or letter to the editor.

You may choose to call it "bad press" ... but to some of us it is REALITY -and it's being exposed. I think exposing it is a VERY good thing - if it forces TBTB to truely get this sport's shit together.

And if you don't think that there are many, many eventers out there that think of their horse's as ribbon machines, then you are lucky as you have either not seen it or you are in a state of denial.

[J Swan]

There's a difference between "bad press" and inaccurate press. Particularly when the writer makes some pretty outrageous statements.

I'm not interested in bashing other disciplines, or hiding the fact that this is a high risk sport. Even at the lowest levels - it is not an easy sport. While there are bad horsemen in every discipline, it is biased an unfair - and inaccurate, to assert that these horses were pushed beyond endurance. It's inflammatory, biased - and is NOT good journalism. And I don't think her choice of words was accidental.

Fact checking is not difficult. If the writers position has merit, it should stand on its own without trying to emotionally manipulate the reader.

I'll repeat - the keywords "animal abuse" are not accidental.

For those who denigrate another discipline to make eventing appear superior - that's pretty bad sportsmanship and I'm ashamed to see it being displayed by eventers. I never heard that sort of talk when I competed - we were all a pretty good bunch of folks. Things must have changed. :no:

[subk]

USEA President Baumgardner told me the necropsies at Red Hills showed the horses died of pulmonary events. If it's bleeding versus heart attacks that's a distinction without much of a difference. The point is, the horses were stressed beyond their natural capacities which resulted in their deaths.
Pulmonary: (adj) of or relating to the lungs. "Heart Attack" as in an organ that is not the lungs. It is a distinction with a great deal of difference, as well as a conclusion that doesn't take into consideration that one of the horses referred to died while less than 2 minutes on the course.

If the goal is to make the sport safer and improve the lives of animals then spouting inaccuracies and making unfounded conclusions is counter-intuitive on so many levels toward that goal. Unless the goal is to sell advertising. Hmmm...Keyword: "Animal Abuse."

Even if her heart is in the right place, we can be assured her brain is not.

[BarbB]

What I don't get is that there is this huge outcry on this BB to make this sport safer for horses and humans alike, but when the press (an outsider) writes about it, the person is vilified. What are you guys afraid of?

I'm sorry, but it's time for eventing to either put up and shut up or reap what it has sown.

Exactly.
And for those that want to shout that the article is not accurate....
an olympic rider was seriously injured
two other horses died on course
correct?

The mistakes in the article cannot change those facts. Either there are serious problems in the sport......as portrayed on many recent threads....or there are not.
If there are then we need to stay on track to address them and not get our collective panties in a bunch trying to defend what is going on in our sport to the world at large by insisting that everyone get every detail correct. Horse sports are a large and intricate world, crying foul over a reporter who only got the big important part of the story correct is kind of silly.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

My Letter to the Editor

Re: Bonnie Erbe's article "Riding Kills Horses, Too"

The 3-Day Event is a very demanding sport of both horse and rider. As with any sport that requires an all out effort, accidents happen. People are injured, horses are injured.

However, Ms. Erbe neglected to point out a very, very important fact: literally, tens of thousands cross country 'starts' occur every year in every state in this country. The accidents are very few.

3 Day Event horses are some of the most pampered equestrians around. These horses receive the highest quality of care and scrutiny for soundness. Further, these horses love the game, they love to run and they love to jump.

So Ms Erbe, before you publish such a one sided, inaccurate picture...please get your facts straight.

PS. Horses have Aneurisms, they do not have Heart Attacks...I'm a little surprised you didn't know that owning 7 horses and all.

[subk]

Exactly.
The mistakes in the article cannot change those facts. Either there are serious problems in the sport......as portrayed on many recent threads....or there are not.
If there are then we need to stay on track to address them and not get our collective panties in a bunch trying to defend what is going on in our sport to the world at large by insisting that everyone get every detail correct.
While I certainly understand your point I have to disagree.

By calling us animal abusers, which is exactly what is happening when "animal cruelty" is used as a keyword for the article, it's giving what is currently a very open attempt to make changes to the sport the incentive to not be open. It would be easier to push it under the rug and ignore it than to confront this type of sensationalism. It encourages people who are currently vocal about change to not want to be vocal so as not to be publicly classified as an animal abuser.

We need to make changes to the sport. Or governing body has already done a tremendous amount of work toward that end--which of course was not reported and doubtfully will be. To be referred to in the manner of this article (as if the answers are "easy") is insulting and counter-productive. This is sensational journalism using the death of two horses to sell advertising. Personally, I find that offensive.

[Jazzy Lady]

As I said earlier, I got my information from Kevin Baumgardner who has posted on the USEA website that horse safety has become a concern for the eventing community. Please get your information right before wrongly accusing others of inaccuracy.

Kevin Baumgardner said that safety has become a concern. He NOWHERE stated or said that the horses that died were the result of being pushed past their abilities at all. THIS is what I am saying. Neither death was fence related. Both could have happened elsewhere. You have drawn your own unsupported conclusion. We all know what Kevin and the USEA have been writing. We've been talking about it, reading about it, discussing it for weeks on end. I don't think by reading one little statement and drawing your own conclussion makes you more informed than the rest of us who live, breathe and dream the sport.

[flyingchange]

:rolleyes: Give me a break.

Really, you guys that are so insulted and offended by one person's opinion piece - you need to get thicker skins. This is a SPORT. None of us HAS to do it. It is NOT mandatory. People are dying and getting seriously hurt. Horses are dying.

Sensationalism? Please. She mixed up a venue name. She used heart attack instead of PA. Is she wrong about galloping at an inhumane speed? I don't think that's quite the issue - but she is getting close to what could be the issue - the stopping and going that hypothetically could lead to bleeding and PA.

[Debbie]

We'd be better served in the name of controlling the process of investigating and improving our sport from the inside out by being a little less vociferous in response to bad press.

Kevin's open letter on the USEA website in the wake of Red Hills and the breadth of coverage due to Darren's high profile both ripped this discussion out of the realm of inside baseball and into a more public arena. This has been predicted for years by Denny and others who were concerned that the sport was headed down an untenable path in terms of the number and frequency of accidents for horses and riders. Now it's not just our concerns that have to be addressed, but they have to be addressed in a transparent fashion to satisfy the new eyes that will be watching our progress.

Yes it would be nice if every article/blog were nothing but factual, but the facts themselves are compelling (they certainly have been on this BB and within the USEA) enough to generate scrutiny.

Kudos to the USEA to have so successfully risen to the crisis management required of our sport -- the announcements regarding mandating use of frangible pins and the formation of the vet study group are concrete evidence that the sport is standing up for its horses and riders.

Rather than reacting in attack mode, correct the factual errors and point to the work that's being done. I have a feeling people wouldn't be so aggrieved if the author weren't a fellow horseman, but if we can't calmly and reassuringly address the concerns of a fellow horseman how are we going to do so with those outside the horse world?

Now stepping down off my public relations professional soap box! :)

[whoacorwin]

It is so sad that the sport of eventing has come to this.....

But is it not to be expected with the carnage it has produced so horribly often of late. I am surprised it has taken so long for the "outside" to notice.

I am a lowly smurf for sure, and after witnessing Amy Tryon and her ride on Le Samuarai my passion for this sport has been dying a slow death. When you watch something like that it is hard to believe that this sport really does hold the horses welfare in any regard.

I have groomed for the ULR's so I do have some idea of what is going on "up" there. The blog did have one fact straight...you can make a horse go when it should not want to go.....I watched a wonderful horse being pushed to the finish line at Rolex and he did it.....because he had a great heart.

Eventing has always been viewed as a bad-ass extreme sport, but the extreme has gotten out of control. I sincerely hope that all the really smart and heart felt people who are rising up can return it to the awesome sport it was.....but until then the negative press has been earned I am afraid.

[ksbadger]

Please remember that anything said on this thread will be quoted (and misquoted) by others - and their interests will not be those of eventing or any other equestrian sport. Be especially careful not to include inflammatory words that just attract the webcrawlers. Keep in mind the first law of journalism - if it bleeds it leads!

[Spoilsport]

In the interest of "full disclosure," I am not an eventer though I've always had enormous respect for eventers and some of my favorite clinicians from which I've learned tons have been eventers. I read this forum out of respect and admiration for eventers.

I also happen to work in a profession where I get lots of media attention so I've followed recent threads with a combination of shock and amusement. I'm not sure who is who here, but I'm suprised at how casually certain people air their "dirty laundry." I've been tempted to point out that sometimes you get what you wish for, and then you wish you hadn't. I guess this an example. As others have pointed out, why be surprised when the media picks up what you yourselves have said? Really, nothing in the article in question even begins to compare to what some of you have said here. As far as the inaccuracies in the article, they too don't even begin to compare to the misinformation on the internet.

Perhaps this can be a wake up call. (Go ahead and attack me or whoever else you want to attack, but think before you write next time if you really care about eventing.)

[pegasusmom]

The accident I saw happened at the Kentucky Horse Park and I was mistaken it was Pony Club Jumping (not hunters), and 2'6-2'9 division. Horse had an aneurysm over the 5th fence ( I believe). circa 2000ish.



It was at USPC Championships in either 2000 or 2003 at the Kentucky Horse Park. I can't remember exactly which year, I do remember where I was standing when it happened. (victim of old age and a teenage son)

And yes, I know the vet. He is also my vet.

It would be interesting to see what the statistics for pulmonary hemorrhage are for horses in other disciplines (racing, steeplechase, polo, polocrosse, foxhunting etc.) Bosox - there have been two horses drop dead on the on the polocrosse field in the last three years - Lauren's at Warwick and one I personally witnessed in Wyoming. Your friend's concerns may be valid, but I am sorry she chose this method to express them.

[flyingchange]

Yes...in the case of those two horses...I think she is wrong. And it isn't known if the stopping and going could lead to bleeding and PA....that is what needs to be researched. That research will help all horse sports....not just eventing. Instead...she, and you and jumping to conclusions.


Please review the definition of "hypothetical."

Yes, this is what NEEDS to be researched. And all research starts with a hypothesis.

NOT jumping to conclusions, but not sticking my head in the sand either.

[geronimo!]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;3140119]her intent may be in the right place....but her unfounded conclusion that the cause of these horses death was because they were unreasonably pushed.....takes away from any such good intentions.


Your point is emblematic of what's wrong with all the posters who reacted negatively or shall I say overreacted to my article. First, the depth of your overreaction suggests more than a mite of guilt.
Second, I'm not saying eventers at all levels push their horses too hard. But if two horses die trying to get through a course, such as was the case at Red Hills, clearly the horses at that level or on that course are being pushed too hard.
If you don't agree with me on that, then you don't agree with Kevin Baumgardner. So maybe you're in the wrong sport?

I also think it's a sorry, sorry day when equestrians get lathered up over suggestions that horse sports should be made safer for horses. What kind of apologist attitude is that? Apologists don't deserve the privilege of owning an inspiring, powerful, engaging, loving, hard-working equine athlete.

Lastly, I want to personally thank everyone who stood up for me here, and who ranks horse safety as a top priority.

[geronimo!]

For the record I never called anyone an "animal abuser." You guys need to check your facts.

While I certainly understand your point I have to disagree.

By calling us animal abusers, which is exactly what is happening when "animal cruelty" is used as a keyword for the article, it's giving what is currently a very open attempt to make changes to the sport the incentive to not be open. It would be easier to push it under the rug and ignore it than to confront this type of sensationalism. It encourages people who are currently vocal about change to not want to be vocal so as not to be publicly classified as an animal abuser.

We need to make changes to the sport. Or governing body has already done a tremendous amount of work toward that end--which of course was not reported and doubtfully will be. To be referred to in the manner of this article (as if the answers are "easy") is insulting and counter-productive. This is sensational journalism using the death of two horses to sell advertising. Personally, I find that offensive.

[subk]

For the record I never called anyone an "animal abuser." You guys need to check your facts.
You need to check your own story. The keywords at the bottom include: "Animal Cruelty."
So yes, you did.

[Bethe Mounce]

Every discipline within the equine community has its issues. Dressage has rollkur, the racing industry breaks horses down at such an early age in the quest for the almighty dollar, the western folks have their unique training methods.

The eventing world (which I was a part of a long time ago) has changed drastically. The cross country courses that I have seen since then are not conducive to a sustained rhythmical gallop. I see horses not fit enough. I see riders not qualified to compete in the division they entered-that is the most disturbing thing. I would imagine most riders have coaches and trainers who are instrumental in helping them walk the cross country courses and show jumping courses.

Eventing is dangerous, no doubt about it. Heck, doing anything with a horse is dangerous no matter what the discipline. It is up to the riders, trainers and powers that be to ensure that every horse trial or 3 day event is as safe as possible for everyone competing and to not be afraid to speak up which is exactly what is happening. Even though tempers may flare, people are saying what they think and maybe that is what the sport needs to be able to implement whatever safety precautions are necessary. I personally, would like to see a jog at every level of competition, not just the upper levels. And a vet check after cross country at every level too. And, at the risk of further inflaming people, perhaps go to a qualifying system whereby the rider has to demonstrate their abilities before moving up a level.

I still would like to see cross country designers ride the courses they design and build. Just because the jumps are placed where they are does not mean the course will ride the way the designer intended. Same for show jumping.

If nothing else, the articles have generated publicity and a serious outcry from those involved and healthy debate is always a good thing. I know folks here are questioning the authors of such articles about the facts. And we should. Rhetoric gets us nowhere...I am glad to see eventing is getting such attention...sure wish dressage and rollkur would get the same attention!

[geronimo!]

You need to check your own story. The keywords at the bottom include: "Animal Cruelty."
So yes, you did.

I don't supply the key words and I have no idea who does. Far as I know it's computer generated. I don't write the headlines, either. An editor does that. You need to learn more about media before you make public erroneous statements that make you look foolish.

[Spoilsport]

You need to check your own story. The keywords at the bottom include: "Animal Cruelty."
So yes, you did.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The "tags" at the bottom are not the writer's words! I'm not defending the article. I find it a bit trite, but don't read more into it.

Some of you just seem to want to be ANGRY. First you are angry at the state of eventing, the short format, CMP. . .now you turn your anger to someone who is just repeating what you've said.

subk - Go back and read your own posts ;)

[annikak]

I guess I think that many are right- a lot of what she has written has been said on this very here BB. Which is why I think we have to be MUCH more careful. But, for the most part, what she writes is factual.

FWIW- I am an avid eventer- (#64240) and love eventing and the horses that event. I also care greatly about their welfare. (the #6 goal?? Remember?)

I think it might be nice to mention that eventers have seen that there are issues- and those are being addressed as we speak.

EIPH- they have a task force started, and there are vets looking into the issue as it relates to event horses. Sure, it can happen anywhere- but... don't we want to know if there is SOME way we can predict it happening??? Isn't that our responsibility? And so, we as an orginization are looking into it.
Course design- is there a relationship that we can directly say is a contributing issue? Is the the CD or the land itself? Combos being too close? Not enough gallop area?
Tables. There are course builders looking at the design right now. Gnep being one of them.
So, we have looked at and are trying to figure out ways to make the sport that so many love safer for both horse and rider. We are NOT hiding from it- but rather taking a critical look at it. We are horse lovers beyond anything else...aren't we? So taking an honest look puts us right in the spotlight. We care, we care and want to do something about it. I think that puts a very positive light on the sport and where it is going.

JMHO

[subk]

I don't supply the key words and I have no idea who does. Far as I know it's computer generated. I don't write the headlines, either. An editor does that. You need to learn more about media before you make public erroneous statements that make you look foolish.
I'm well aware how media works as I'm aware you don't write tags and headlines--and no, keywords are not computer generated--perhaps you should learn more about your own profession. But you DID write the words that made your editors think your article was about animal cruelty. If your professional editors think what you wrote is about people abusing animals why shouldn't the rest of us? How can you say that's not what the article is about when you own editors think it is?

But, for the most part, what she writes is factual...So, we have looked at and are trying to figure out ways to make the sport that so many love safer for both horse and rider. We are NOT hiding from it- but rather taking a critical look at it.

My problem with the article is not that she messed up simple things like Red Hills vs. Fair Hills (although it certainly is enlightening.) It's statements made as fact like courses "could easily have been made equally challenging yet less dangerous" when the best minds in our sport are working their tails off right now trying to figure just how to do that. She said "riders are injured all too often" implying that this is some demolition derby instead of a sport where the overwhelming majority of starters are incident free. Then there's the reference to racing, "many of these injuries are also easily averted." "Easily?" What wily word usage she has.

Being smacked in the face precisely because we have stood up and are openly taking a critical look at the situation is undeserved. The very people who are trying to address the issue are the ones being discredited. How's that supposed to help the horses the writer supposedly cares about? To be treated like that by someone who claims to be a fellow equestrian is indeed a bitter pill.

[annikak]

I guess if you go back thru the threads on this subject, that is what many have written- and I think in great part they are not those out there, on the courses, riding them.

It has also been said (on this BB) that riders are getting injured all too often. We have created a lot of what she has written. I don't know, but I think I could take a lot of what is on the BB and create a much worse outlook on eventing if I chose to do so.

I guess that is why I think we must be careful. not to hide anything- but be sure to stop any sensationalism before we end up killing ourselves. Does that make sense??

[subk]

I guess if you go back thru the threads on this subject, that is what many have written- and I think in great part they are not those out there, on the courses, riding them.
It has also been said (on this BB) that riders are getting injured all too often. We have created a lot of what she has written. I don't know, but I think I could take a lot of what is on the BB and create a much worse outlook on eventing if I chose to do so.
I guess that is why I think we must be careful. not to hide anything- but be sure to stop any sensationalism before we end up killing ourselves. Does that make sense??

I think it makes wonderful sense, but I do think it would be a disservice to our sport not to have these conversations because of fear.

I have to add that I am proud of my sport and I'm not ashamed to say it. I'm proud to be lead by Kevin Baumgardner. I think the USEA has done a wonderful job in the last few weeks being smart, proactive and willing to invest and make hard decisions about difficult problems. The best part is this isn't new behavior by the organization. Eventing has an excellent history of doing research that has not only benefited our sport but has benefited all horse sports. The USEA pursues safety for both horse and rider as vigorously or more so than any horse sport out there.

I realize that people are frightened of the press, but I am not scared by any journalist who is willing to write an article or form an opinion based on the facts. While many think that's a tall order I believe (and I work with enough of them) that most journalist do strive for that kind of reporting. I certainly think all the other coverage that we I have read has been fair, and I'm not bothered by those reports at all.

The story here is that in the last year and a half we've had problems. The body of participants have recognized this, expressed their concern and discussed the problems openly. The leadership is listening and they are leading with research and changes. Folks, that is a GREAT story--be proud of it!

Now I'm going to head out to the barn.

[annikak]

I think it makes wonderful sense, but I do think it would be a disservice to our sport not to have these conversations because of fear.

I have to add that I am proud of my sport and I'm not ashamed to say it. I'm proud to be lead by Kevin Baumgardner. I think the USEA has done a wonderful job in the last few weeks being smart.


I agree with everything you said- and you said it well! Indeed, open communication is essential. I believe that it's happening in Eventing- and I am also proud to be a part of it!

[tulkas]

Ms. Erbe is a hunter rider. Guess which discipline killed the most horses last year? Not my choice of language, but as long as she's making accusations, I'll play her game.

tulkas

[geronimo!]

I commend to you all, letters to the sports editor in today's NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/13/sports/13inbox.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=sports+editor&st=nyt&oref=slogin

[JAM]

Annikak wrote (post 84 in this thread): "FWIW- I am an avid eventer- (#64240) and love eventing and the horses that event. I also care greatly about their welfare. (the #6 goal?? Remember?)"

Sad to say, it used to be #1. (Not a comment about you; a comment about the times; I actually thought the list of goals was commendable; I just wouldn't have put welfare of the horse at the bottom of the list -- even though I don't think it was the intent, it does suggest the wrong message.)

[JAM]

Regarding the statement that there are tens of thousands of starts during the course of a year, I wonder what the statistics regarding death and serious injury (both human and equine) are at advanced (all formats), where most of the tragedies seem to be occurring here.

My Letter to the Editor

[Kementari]

Reading the article and the thread, what I find most interesting is that a good freshman composition course could have solved most of the issues here.

One of the first things you [should] learn when learning to write argumentative essays is to check your facts. If that had been done, the writer would not have gotten Fair Hill and Red Hills confused, would not have implied that horses are only at risk in eventing and racing, and would not still be insisting that "pulmonary" means "heart."

The reason you learn this is because if you make blatant factual misstatements, knowledgeable people are going to jump on those as proof that your basic argument is bunk. If you provide such an easy out, then you get precisely the reaction engendered here: it's as predictable as the sun rising in the morning.

The basic premise - that we need to make sure our courses aren't too difficult for either the equine or human athletes involved - is one that very few people here will dispute. But if you couch it in terms that are insulting, and back it up with "facts" that aren't, then you put the eventing community on the defensive, and ensure that the majority of the responses you receive are every bit as misinformed and insulting as the initial article.

If the writer had checked her facts and adhered to complete accuracy to begin with, we might be lamenting that we had gotten to the point of being in the mainstream press, but we would not be fighting tooth and nail against the article itself and its author, personally. As case in point, I'd refer to the thread on the NYT article, an article which had essentially only one minor factual error (despite being written by a non-horse person), which followed pretty much exactly the aforementioned course.

Forget eventing; this entire episode is simply proof that we need to do a better job teaching composition in our schools! ;)

[kt-rose]

I rather thought Ms. Erbe's commentary was more remarkable for what she left out in order to frame her opinion than what she wrote. Should I happen to read any of her material on more substantive issues like the economy, politics or the environment, I will now always be wondering what she has chosen to leave out...

[bosox]

I'd refer to the thread on the NYT article, an article which had essentially only one minor factual error (despite being written by a non-horse person), which followed pretty much exactly the aforementioned course.
---Which one do you take as the mistake?

25,000 to $1 million each---a bit misleading I'd say

Top competitors, coaches and course designers argue that the sport’s death and injury toll is most likely related to an influx of new riders to the sport The writer doesn't go on to say that these deaths in the past 18 months have been in the UPPER LEVELS not the lower levels.

The pins cost about $70 per fence, according to Mr. Costello, who is the United States distributor for the pins. We seen on this board that it is 70 dollars per pin and needing many pins to make a fence. Who is right?

[QUOTE]was training a horse on an intermediate course in Tallahassee/QUOTE]----he was not going I but Pre-lim

[Jealoushe]

So what are you saying?:confused:

That people who hunt push their horses beyond reason? :confused:

I event, I hunt, I used to ride hunters, I used to ride jumpers. That does not equal abuse. However, I also wrote USEA and believe that Eventing needs an overhaul for the betterment of our sport and our future.

ETA:I guess I read her article and see that she wants the sport to be safer for horses. Fences that don't fall down or trip a horse or striding that is a bit off is dangerous. The article states that the courses should not be some techno ride to be a challenge for both athletes on course? Is that not what has been said for weeks on this board?

That is the whole point! Make Eventing safer. If I missed why I should be on anyother bandwagon...let me know. I am off to go ride my beastie and enjoy spring!


Umm I was in no way saying people who hunt or show hunters push their horses beyond reason, what I was saying is that you cant point one discipline out and say its any more abusive to the horse than the other.

[JAM]

Bosox wrote: "Top competitors, coaches and course designers argue that the sport’s death and injury toll is most likely related to an influx of new riders to the sport. The writer doesn't go on to say that these deaths in the past 18 months have been in the UPPER LEVELS not the lower levels."

Nor do the top competitors, coaches or course designers. This is the whole fallacy -- I still don't know whether it's intentional changing of the issue or unintentional burying their head in the sand -- of their position that the deaths and injuries are due to the influx of new riders. I don't think anyone would argue that Darren Chiacchia, Ralph Hill, Kim Meier, the list goes on, were new riders, moved up too fast or lacked the proper foundation.

This is not inaccurate, misleading, or incomplete reporting on the part of the writer. The writer got the position of the top competitors, coaches and course designers (specifically Capt. Phillips) exactly as it has been stated and without omitting anything.

[Kementari]

---Which one do you take as the mistake?

25,000 to $1 million each---a bit misleading I'd say

Top competitors, coaches and course designers argue that the sport’s death and injury toll is most likely related to an influx of new riders to the sport The writer doesn't go on to say that these deaths in the past 18 months have been in the UPPER LEVELS not the lower levels.

We seen on this board that it is 70 dollars per pin and needing many pins to make a fence. Who is right?

was training a horse on an intermediate course in Tallahassee----he was not going I but Pre-limThe price of upper level horses - who you yourself are arguing are the ones at risk - is certainly in that range, though I agree $1 million is misleading.

The cost of making fences with pins is a matter of much debate, so I can't blame the author for misunderstanding it - though the cost of pins being $70 per pair (with one pair needed per fence, generally) is accurate, at least according to what has been said by those who know more than I.

The I vs P thing is what I was referring to.

JAM's post covers the other point.

Regardless, however, you have completely missed my point, which was that the US News & World Report article had egregious errors, giving everyone easy ammunition to discredit that writer, where if she had done her due diligence, her point would not have been lost in the fuss. The NYT article was simply one example of better writing, not the be-all and end-all of equestrian reporting.