Instructer Certification Program

[Hannahsmom]

I am starting this thread hoping to get some discussion and to satisfy my curiousity. In my line of work, the people sought after and hired are people with not only proven success, but also certification and proof of continuing education. Even curmudgeons like me who got into the industry by a different route and have a proven track record have had to "go back to school" to prove competency and that we are competent in the new techniques and technologies. It isn't always required for a job, but boy, it sure does open some doors and give credibility.

In eventing, as I have moved around and looked for instructers I have always had several facters I looked for: obviously someone with a proven track record, someone competing above the levels I am competing at is a plus, preferably a graduate "A" pony clubber, and maybe most important, with students who were also competent with abilities and horseflesh similar to mine (proving the instructer knew how to teach) are all things I look for. But now the ICP program has finally provided the certifications that are similar to what I experience in my industry so to me they seem a huge plus in what I would look for in an instructer.

So why doesn't this program even more broadly embraced by instructers? Is there a waiting list for people wanting to gain the certification? Are our YR's encouraged to go thru this if they plan to hang out a shingle? Why doesn't the common public ask this question FIRST when looking for an instructer vs. looking in the yellow pages? Why doesn't this trickle down to the 4H level? Why aren't parents or amateur adults wanting to learn to event checking into these qualifications before picking an instructer? Is it because this certification isn't as well known as an "MD" or "PhD"?

I have heard from some respected instructers when I ask why they don't have this that it is "expensive" but I was wondering what reasons there were that more instructers didn't embrace this to have this 'creditation' with their name?

On another note, does it need more publicity? Is it just a matter of time that this is a program growing and over time will become the expected and the norm? Is the program not adding any value? The USDF magazine recently had a series of articles introducing all their certified instructers at the various levels which brought to my attention which instructers were certified, which were not. (And yes, my dressage instructer is.) I'm so glad the Omnibus recently out listed all the ICP certified instructers. We need more of that at our fingertips!

Sorry for all these questions, but with all the questions of safety and course design, I still think one major factor lacking is enough competent and qualified instructers.

I hope we get a discussion from those who have been through the program, hosted the program, or would like to go through it.

[scubed]

The program is relatively expensive, both in terms of $$ and in terms of the time and travel it takes to complete it. There are not yet enough seminars offered close to many instructors (you can see the schedule here: http://www.useventing.com/education.php?section=instructors&id=127. You have to do the jumping workshop, the dressage workshop and the assessment, so you can see how this would be a burden depending where you are based)
Also, we don't have a history of requiring this in this country and I think many instructors who are very good, busy and have a good reputation don't see the value of the certification, although the increasing number of top BNTs who are involved is raising the value and attractiveness of the program, IMO. Lastly, I think the instructors who need it most, might be least likely to obtain it, which over time may mean that you won't want to ride with someone without it, but right now, it is quite new and not all instructors recognize the value or can afford to do it.

[Speedy]

I train and board with one of the members of the ICP faculty and have seen some of the workshops, etc. They are really great, educational opportunities for the participants - I would love to see certification required (or, if not required, something that riders consider more often when looking for new instructors).

I think the program probably needs more funding and publicity to have a greater reach into the eventing community. But it is young and the people who are involved are doing what they can to get the word out.

[Hannahsmom]

scubed,

Excellent points but I'll bet some of those are all things that can be addressed if we believe the program is truly worth it. Scholarships for the expense and to cover some of the lost income. Although people I know that go back to school are often doing it at their own expense. More workshops that are subsidized and figuring out how to space them or time them or cut them up or combine them to make them doable. This will need instructers who are interested to give feedback as to WHY they can't attend.

More publicity so people WILL start asking about it before signing up little Suzy or Johnnie. This generates more demand so makes people more interested in going thru the effort, believe me, I didn't want to get certifications either but when my job was on the line, it was a different story. Those who have passed need to state this as clearly as you see on programs for other industries. Conferences list a speaker's education credentials as well as work experience. Go out to any major conference in another industry and check the programs.

You're right, the ones who need it most will never use it, but I have had people outside of eventing ask me "isn't there some sort of a certification or testing for instructors?" Because in the rest of the world, yes, you can make it without the education, but only if you are extremely talented.

[pwynnnorman]

I think scholarships would be such a great idea.

I also think more incentives for certified instructors might help. I'm drawing a blank on examples, except for the one that sticks in my mind a lot: Longwood doesn't allow anyone not certified to teach on its schooling grounds. A membership-fee waiver also just occurred to me. Maybe discounts on other fees, too? (This would probably get into the realm of USEF rather than USEA, but why not?) Anyway, if USEA could illustrate how individuals would earn the fees back in a short time through specific benefits, I think it could be pitched more effectively to its target market.

Definitely more campaigns are needed to raise awareness, not only of the opportunity, but also of its benefits (both for the instructors and also their potential students).

And just to throw this out there: What about a "fast track" system? The fact is that some folks are already superb, classic instructors who could themselves teach other instructors. Why should they bother to take the time or money to be certified--it may very well be almost an insulting process for them. Granted, I'm talking about individuals who could be fast tracked not just because they have the knowledge, but also--and more importantly, from my own perspective as an academic--because they have the technique (organized, articulate, focused, observant, proactive, etc.). Perhaps it would be productive to enable those gifted and experienced individuals to take a carefully crafted test that examines the objectives and outcomes of the program effectively, so they don't have to jump through so many costly hoops?

[Sorry to go on, but I have to add this: The key would be the test--and it would really, really need to be developed by individuals knowledgeable both in the goals of the program, the nature of the sport AND how to write a test. My greatest fear in some of these things is that, operationally, some programs don't get input of professionals in relevant fields outside of the sport, resulting in good intentions but poor delivery. I don't know if this is the case AT ALL with ICP. It's just what I'd worry about if a fast track system were based on a test.]

[Hilary]

Here's my plug for it. My instructor participated in the first class. She's a longtime pro, competed at the 4* level and at 4th/PSG in dressage. Graduate A pony clubber.

She was always a very good teacher, but a bit of the ilk of "yes, that's it, now do it better". If I asked a specific question she always had an answer, but sometimes I had to ask if I wasn't getting something rather than her being forthcoming about what, exactly I was doing wrong and how to fix it.

After the program, I think she developed a much more articulate and explicit teaching style. Same great knowledge, better delivery system.

She told me it was quite expensive -with the travel, lodging etc, but it was a very good experience to have coaching while teaching and she said she learned a lot doing the program. I believe she is a level III instructor now, and I don't know if she plans to try for level 4. Currently she has students up through prelim/Intermediate and competes herself at Intermediate and 3rd level straight dressage.

[scubed]

also, I think recipocity for other nations certifications if we believe they are equivalent. For example, the two trainers I have ridden with recently are both BHS certified and that's more than good enough for me!

[Hannahsmom]

Great ideas pwynn! I like the fast track idea as long as it is truly based on assessing an instructor's teaching credentials and knowledge, not just knowledge and competition expertise.

I would really like to see this feasible for all those instructers "out there" and "out here" who really want to advance and show their expertise but today it is pretty much based on how well you do in competitions and if your picture or article shows up in a national mag which is our only name recognition.

btw, I'm an amateur, not an instructor, but I would love to audit the workshops. :)

[Hannahsmom]

scubed, you are right, there should be some cross-nation comparison and equivalency. A engineering degree PhD from a top University anywhere in the world has world wide respect.

[pwynnnorman]

scubed, you are right, there should be some cross-nation comparison and equivalency. A engineering degree PhD from a top University anywhere in the world has world wide respect.

That'd be yet another reason to develop a comprehensive test: to reflect a national/international standard. Such a test could also be used to derive the ultimate guide for those seeking certification. (Kinda like how USPC writes up its standards--almost like a checklist of requisites.)

[beeblebrox]

...

[pwynnnorman]

MY MOUTH was wide open as this trainer was way off. Some could not tell you how many beats to each gait and give reasons for different iron length and positions from stadium to cross country and for the love of GOD many had no idea what a half step at the canter was let alone teach it other than to say hey that line is short so steady (what the hell does that mean?)


Yup, that's why I'm for a really comprehensive, professionally developed test. There are standard stuff a safe instructor just HAS to know. And the means are available--as they are used in other industries--to test both visually and verbally. And such a test would eliminate any "our way or the highway" tendencies. Heck, I'm beginning to convince myself that they should all take the same comprehensive test, but only by invitation without the preliminary workshops (the fast tracks).

The key with programs like these that are really "cross discipline" (equine but also academic, for example) is to draw from both disciplines for maximum effectiveness. I haven't any way of knowing whether that was done, but I have to express doubt because it just isn't the way things are done in the horse world.

BTW, I'm actually rehashing here a lot of the language I've used in criticizing hunterdom for how it qualifies judges.

[shr]

If you are going to be at ROLEX this year, and have questions re: ICP - stop by the Area 8 Booth. See below:

Area 8 Booth Plans at Rolex
Area 8 will again have a booth in the Trade Fair at the Rolex Kentucky Three Day Event on April 24 - 28. This year we will be running the ever-popular 'Shopping Bag Check' as a fundraiser for the Area and its Programs. In addition, we've invited the Instructor Certification Program (ICP) to participate in the booth to raise awareness for both riders and instructors about this program and its benefits.

[Kanga]

Hannahsmom & Scubed-

You are right about this! I am a British Horse Society(BHS) Instructor. I have been through 11 exams far more intense & detailed than what the ICP currently offers. The rest of the world has a system where at a certain level you qualify to get an "International Instructors Passport". This shows you have reached a certain level across the board in (I believe) around 130 countries. America is just behind times on getting on board with this.

I have on couple of occasions contacted Eric Smiley about "grandfathering" people like me into the program so that we could start at the level we have already achieved. There has been no response. I'm sure other people in my shoes with the years of experience and qualifications through other organizations won't be going through the ICP until it is recognized that we should start at the level we already have. The ICP also needs to be brought up to date more on the Horsemanship/Stablemanagement end of things. It should also include riding not just teaching. The BHS is a much more well-rounded system with safety being first on their list which allows instructors to be more well-rounded.

I have posted something on this before, but lets just see if we could get with the rest of the world on this and then we could have a better system for everyone no matter where they want to live.

It has come in handy for me to be able to live in many different countries and have my International Instructors Passport to be able to work.

[shr]

Scholarships are available!

Cindy Burge ICP Grants -- http://useventing.com/archives.php?id=490


Area VIII has 2, $500 Grants available for 2008
(the Adult Rider Program's $500 Grant money was matched by Area VIII)

Other AR Programs are also offering ICP Grants -- contact your USEA Area's Adult Rider Coordinator for more information

[abrownhorse]

I am a big proponent of the ICP program.

My primary instructor earned is Level III ICP a couple of years ago. He has become more articulate, more focused and more interested in teaching since completing the program. It gave him a new energy and new insight into a career that he has been involved in since the 90's.

I am an amateur, BUT I am attending the ICP Workshops and Assessment this year. Will be sitting in the dressage workshop one week from today. I'm a nervous wreck about it, but I want to do it for several reasons:

1. I believe that it will make me a better rider
2. I do have an interest in teaching some beginners in our area
3. I don't want to be "That" trainer. You know, the one that you watch teach and you think... what the hell are they doing? If people question my tactics or theory, at least I will have more confidence that what I am doing truly IS correct.

I believe that the ICP is adding more and more workshops each year. Proximity will help reduce the cost. The workshop is $400 for 3 days and the assessment is $500. Without travel expenses, I'm looking at $1300. Sounds like a lot, I know.

Re: Scholarships/Grant:
A group of individuals, spearheaded by Tim Holekamp, have formed the ICP Boosters. This group of folks has raised funds that will allow several instructors in Area IV, III & IX to be re-imbursed for the Assessment fee.
http://useventing.com/education.php?section=instructors&id=1360

Also, there is a Cindy Burge Grant that several area Adult Rider groups offer.
http://www.useventing.com/education.php?section=adultriders&id=743

None of this totally covers the cost, but it does help offset it a bit.

I'm both nervous and excited about the upcoming Workshops. I think most of the nerves come from the fact that I have never truly taught a full lesson. I have 1 person that I help about 1-2x per month. (Hmmm...maybe help isn't the right word! One person that I try to teach...) I am glad that they have implemented the ICP Provisional Certification for people like me..those that aren't teaching yet.

[Hannahsmom]

This is all great feedback Beeblebrox and Kanga. I usually put a system in place knowing it will need constant changing and tweaking. If something better is there, adjustments are necessary. Should I assume the ICP faculty is in charge of making the adjustments? Or is it a different group within the USEA?

And you are all right, as with any education, some people use it, some lose it. On-going seminars of new methods at the annual meetings or something would be good.

To sum up so far, I think I'm reading:
- Cost - several ideas have been thrown out about that, whether scholarships or changing around the way courses are done to make them shorter periods for classes, less travel, etc.
- Equivalency with other programs and improvements needed to existing programs - this is what I was talking about with changing and tweaking and I can't imagine why the international certifications can't be looked at and determine equivalency. And that not everyone agrees with the faculty's curriculum. :) BUT, it actually does sound good that there were people having to learn that the way they were doing it was wrong. Ignorance is bliss, now at least there is no excuse for doing it the wrong way.
- Motivation - there seems to be no clear motivation other than desire for an instructer to want to take it. It's not well known enough or marketed enough to be a motivater for an instructer's income. I think we have to remember that the best motivator is money, not a big stick, so it makes more sense for an instructer to see that they will realize some real financial benefit rather than "you can't school students over a course without this, etc".

These points are all interesting to ponder, hope more instructers weigh in on "forget it and why". Programs only improve with honest feedback and open minds from those providing the service program.

[IFG]

I am an amateur, BUT I am attending the ICP Workshops and Assessment this year. Will be sitting in the dressage workshop one week from today.

Make sure you say hi! I will be riding the bay with the big white blaze on Sunday. My daughter will be the demo rider on the solid bay on Monday.

Edited to add that You are probably going to be in MO, and I will be in MA. Duh, I should have looked at your location before posting!

[LAZ]

Hannahsmom--

I seriously considered hosting an ICP here last year and sent inquiries around to the instructors in the area--I got two positive responses, 1 negative response, and no response at all from most (I sent out 40 emails, twice). It is a considerable cost to the hosting facility so I couldn't take it on if I was going to be too much in the hole.

Maybe next year...this year I'm too broke to consider it from my colt's vet bills.

[Hannahsmom]

LAZ, I'm really sorry there was so little response. I am still scratching my head as to why? Any thoughts?

[subk]

A couple of things that haven't been discussed.

One big reason instructors may not be inspired to become certified is lack of business competiton. Even here south of Nashville--a huge horsey community--I have an extremely limited choice for eventing instructors. Whether or not they are certified hardly plays in the choice because there just isn't much of a chioce.

Secondly, remember that most trainers are self employed business owners. If you've ever been self employed you know that you don't make money when you aren't working. Not only do you have the expense of going, you have the loss of income for a few days of work. That's a double whamy and it's hard!

Has anybody ever looked to see if there could be an insurance benefit to being certified? Like teen drivers get insurance breaks for taking drivers ed. If you could knock a few bucks off that expense it could be finacially motivating.

I was impressed with what they are trying to do, I enjoyed Eric and Karen very much. I did not like the "pony" club feel of say and do it our way or not pass. (The pony club is great but I think some may agree that some practices are antiquated.)
Many of us afterward talked a GREAT deal about this, there are ways to be safe and successful and not say or do things exactly the way the ICP dictates!

I think the concept that there is an "ICP Way" is a very good thing. When there is a standard it makes you think and justify they way you do things. I'm a graduate "B" and there are plenty of things that I don't do the "Pony Club Way," BUT I know exactly WHY I don't do them that way as well as the positives and negative in my choice. That is a very good thing, and something you wouldn't get if there wasn't a standard to use for comparison.

Lastly, I order my set of ICP books a few weeks ago. I'm another rider who doesn't teach, but I'm interested--especially after it was explained to me that you can go through the complete process and be "pending" until you do have students at the level your certifed to. Then it's just a matter of letting them know you have the students and you get full credit. I don't know how interested I am in teaching but, my mama always says education for the sake of education is never a waste. So there.

[Joan from Flatlands]

Just a couple quick notes about the program.

My husband attended workshops in 2004? as a participating instructor. He was certified in 2005. We have both attended several since as auditors. If you are curious about the program, take a day or 3 to audit. You will see exactly what the program is all about - and will probably take away at least few teaching tidbits to help w various students and/or horses.

We are hosting a Teaching of Dressage Workshop w Don Sachey in Area I next weekend. We are full w 8 participating instructors and have 5 people on the waiting list. All of these people (I believe) are registered candidates looking to achieve certification. Scarlet Hill Farm is hosting a Jumping workshop in early July - they have Phyllis Dawson and Robin Walker as facuilty and are also full w 16 candidates - and I believe also have a waiting list. So in Area I there is quite a bit of interest.

About the cost - when we attended I whined about the cost and loss of income for the days we were at the workshop - and for my husband the testing. However, now that we are organizing the workshop I see that there really isnt any way to do it any cheaper if the faculty are going to get paid. They are already teaching the workshops at a discounted rate. We are full w 8 participating instructors and we are crossing our fingers that we will break even when all is said and done. There are scholarships out there as someone mentioned.

I also believe we have picked up quite a few students due to my husbands certification. While his certification may be the reason they contact us for that first lesson, the quality of his lessons is what keeps them coming back on a regular basis. No matter what level you are certified, for students to continue to ride w you they will need to be happy w the quality of their lessons.

If you want to learn what the program is about I highly recommend auditing a workshop. The ICP Standards booklet and workbooks are a great read as well. And - I really believe that while someone may be able to fake their way thru 1 lesson spouting something they read in a book but didnt believe, I think it would be really hard to do that teaching 3 different lessons to 3 different horse and rider combos and have the assessors not pick up on it.

Someone mentioned that they had emailed Eric Smiley about the program - Im not sure he is involved. Eric Horgan is the Irish Eric that is involved w the program tho Eric Smiley may also be at this point. I dont believe anyone has been grand-fathered in. Every single person certified had to go thru the certification/testing process.

Joan from Flatlands

Joan Davis
Flatlands Equestrian Center

Edited to add there are insurance benefits to being ceritfied. Both Broadstone and Hallmark offer discounted liability insurance to ICP certified instructors. I could be wrong but I believe there is also a smaller discount for registered candidates that have attended the workshops but have not yet been certified.

[denny]

Joan, I notice that all the Level Four instuctors EXCEPT Mark Phillips have the year of qualification listed under their names.
Was he given a free pass? Can you check on that?

[RunForIt]

Some months ago, I began a thread asking what I should know and be able to competently do at each level through Training, I expect that the ICP should provide that info. Am sending for the manuals similar to subk.

Here's an instance of why bottom line, "standard" guidelines need to be taught ... balancing downhill to a XC jump is a REQUISITE for safe jumping - I HAVE NEVER HAD A LESSON where the focus was on me learning this skill - NEVER! Surely that is something that the ICP provides - if not, there's a way to identify the lack of objective, and change - other instructors do not have this "help!" :cool: (and I need for them to have it! - I don't know what I don't know.)

Thank you, retreadeventer, for all you've done with your Directives by eventing level!

[Outfox]

I went through the cert when it was new. And I enjoyed the workshops a bunch. The collaboration between all the trainers was fun and thought provoking. And, of course, Darren was a blast to be around.

The cert test seemed like they were still working out the kinks in the process.

I have to agree with most of what Beeblebrox wrote though. It seems that some instructors have a much easier time with the process than others. I should leave it at that.

When I went through the cert, you had to prove your students competition levels to go with the level of certification. Now, some instructors do not need this kind of proof.

The ICP program helped me with my clinics, more than anything. It gave me a safe, litigious system to starting the lesson. If I get a funny feeling from a student in a clinic, I will resort to a ICP type of intro/lesson.

[Joan from Flatlands]

Hi Denny - I bet Nancy Myers in the USEA office can answer your question. She is out of the office thru Monday but try to touch base w her after that.

Joan from Flatlands

[LAZ]

Hannahsmom,

I don't know why--but I was disappointed in the response, for sure! Especially since one of yes' was from Chicago and the other from St. Louis!

I'll probably try again next year, as I think it could be an asset to my teaching. I did the USDF L program a while back though I never tested for the certification and I found it really helpful for teaching how to ride a dressage test.

Maybe some day that money tree I keep watering in my yard will bear dollars and I'll be able to pursue my interest in continuing education (horse and science both) to my hearts content!

[UNCeventer]

I am a graduate A pony clubber and I have thought about the ICP certification. Sadly right now it is just too expensive for me. I think it is a good idea and maybe more grants would help? How is the BHS program funded? How much is it to go through their program?

[Kanga]

UNCeventer- You would have to pay for the BHS program also. Sorry to say but it would probably cost A LOT more money, as their program is much more detailed and the preparation time is in months & years not just workshops. As with any program it all depends on the experience you start with how long you can expect to have to prepare to take the exams.

Currently the centers in the US only offer up through AI, if you were to continue past that level you would have to go to England. Even in order to get your AI you must complete 500 hours of teaching at an approved facility. Like I said this program is far more complex than the ICP and you would need to committ much more time & money.

They are the organization that makes you the all-round trainer.

Hope that gives you some info!!

[annikak]

I audited the ICP at the KHP at the USPC Festival (I just wanted to see how many letters I could get in!:lol:)

someone said it made them a better rider. I totally agree! It was the most amazing experience- yes, I am waxing on, but really, I learned a ton. We had great people- no real "big" names, (sadly, Eleanor Brennen was one of the participants, and she was an outstanding instructor) but a lot of talented people who were helped in their ability to impart their information.

Brian Sabo was the ICP person, and he was funny, engaging and gave great ideas on how to run a business. One piece of wisdom-as I remember it- "If you schedule a lesson, show up on time, your book will be filled in a matter of a year- it seems as if horse people don't have that ability, but it's essential for your business to grow." How true is that??

I would think that the ICP person who leads is probably very important. There are a few on the list I would not go to audit- having seen them teach, not worth it. I do think that having a re-certification process would be very valuable. 'Nuff said.

I believe that the ICP will catch on as time passes. It is imperative to our sport to have such a certification, IMHO. I also believe that there will be more money available to help further the program. Those that have experienced the program know it's benefits. I know that I currently don't ride with ICP certified instructors, but I wish for them, as well as for me, that they would take the time. Shoot, I'd go with, share the costs and audit. I believe in it that much.

LAZ- you schedule one, I will be there.

If anyone is interested, I put together a proposal for USEA as part of a task force to create a Eventing University. No one bit- even my committee members:no:. Running the numbers, we would be able to reduce the fees to ICP candidates by well over 50% if we ran with such a format. Interesting to note- a camp program was run on the same guidelines...just did not add the ICP component. It was run as a fund raiser. Anyway, if you want to see it, let me know, and I can email it to you.

[Absolut]

Come to our new place in Madison. I have a track built in our fence lines that incorporates xc with a planned downhill approach to a vertical for that reason...so I can teach it! : )

[RunForIt]

Great, Sally! I'm coming to audit the clinic at Starlight next weekend - maybe we can arrange for a lesson soon. There's enough daylight that I can get over to Starlight easy enough by 5:00. Haven't ridden in over a week - have been in FL for spring break - can't wait to get back on Rasta today (if the nice rain will give us a break!).

You can help me understand how the ICP works in determining what is taught (focused on) per level. the topic of balance is constantly discussed in terms of safety, yet how many of us have lessons where we go out on XC for the purpose of learning to ride across the country in balance, and then focus on getting better rebalancing before jumps? No wonder I thought I could ride well enough for Training - the jumping was easy as forty hells. Its the between the jumps stuff I never learned!

[Absolut]

That is the primary focus in teaching xc in our program. Balance of horse and rider between fences, at the approach to the fence, in the air, at landing and resuming the cruising gallop all vary according to the terrain, the type of fence and somewhat the level at which you are riding . Safety depends on proper balance.

We spend the first day schooling courses one question at a time with explanation ad nauseum. The 2nd day we put several jumps together at pace. This is our homework and our baseline for successful, safe competition. If a parent cannot afford showing and the homework both, then I request the money be spent on the homework part of my training until the horse/rider are ready and solid in their skills. We have a deep training program for those that can train on a regular basis. They do very well, and our safety record is thankfully incredible.

The ICP program is excellent, not perfect, but excellent and needed. Hopefully more instructors will recognize the benefit of the experience as a whole and not let the monetary costs be a roadblock. Hopefully the riding public will embrace the program and support it as it grows and matures. There are many people who have donated countless hours with no payment to get it off the ground. We all owe a debt of gratitude to them.

[Hannahsmom]

I don't know the details of the curriculum, (I know, my bad) but from what people say, it does sound like there should be sections you could test out of (just like a regular university). For example, probably some of the teaching theory would be simple for an instructor who maybe started with a college degree in education, but horsemanship would be simple for someone who came up through the pony club ranks, and obviously riding and coaching would be simple for some of the top rider/instructers. So the opportunity for a person to concentrate on learning more in their weaker areas (and I agree with pwynn's earlier statement that maybe we have to draw on teaching from outside just eventing or at least faculty that had formal education outside of horsemanship areas) and able to test out of their strengths?

Of course, maybe that is already how it works?

[PhoenixFarm]

And that not everyone agrees with the faculty's curriculum. :) BUT, it actually does sound good that there were people having to learn that the way they were doing it was wrong. Ignorance is bliss, now at least there is no excuse for doing it the wrong way.


I haven't finished reading the thread but had to stop right here. See, this, is why I haven't pursued ICP certification--because I disagree that different and wrong are necessarily the same word. Now, of course there are "wrong" ways to go about teaching and training, but I've ridden with different instructors and different disciplines on two coasts for 25 years--and I can tell you that while many of them will teach the same general concepts, virtually none of them use the same language or words, and IMO that has ony been to my advantage. One man's "hands forward" is another man's "hands down"--same concept (stop pulling on your horse in the appraoch, you moron) but for one rider the hands forward image is more effective, and for another the hands down image is more effective.

I also think that by forcing such rigid standardization of technique and language, you don't tkae into account the tremendous difference in conformation of riders. I'm 6'0, with a 34D chest. Guess what kids, I ain't approaching the fence in my two point, or my sitting C or any other non-upright position--because it gets ugly in a danged hurry. My barn manager is 5'0 and weighs about 90 lbs soaking wet. I don't teach her to ride exactly how I ride, because what's appropriate for my frame is not appropriate for hers, and vice-versa.

I just find it interesting that while a univesal rule of horse training is that no two horses are the same and should be approached as individuals, when it comes to teaching riders, the program seems to indicate that all peple are the same and can be taught in exactly the same (our) way.

I don't have an issue with certification as an idea, and if I thought the program had relevance to my own program I would probably participate. But when I look around at my day to day students, I have no idea where I would even begin to fit--I have a couple of Novice, and aspring Novice kids and Ammies. I help a few upper level riders with their flat work. I help a few upper level riders with their jumping at home. I have several terrified ammies whose life goal is to either go on a trail ride by themselves, or do a training level dressage test at a local show, but for whom at present cantering a long side is a huge accomplishment. I start babies (horses) and rehab problem horses. I teach people how to train their horses. I've ridden to the mid levels in eventing and dressage, but after a couple of bad falls and some permanent physical damage, I don't jump big fences much anymore--and certainly not on strange horses.

If someone wants my CV of who I've ridden with and what I've done, I always provide it. If someone wants to come and watch me ride and/or teach they are always welcome. I try to clinic with other professionals so that I am always continuing my education. I'm completely aware of how many bad/scary/bizaare instructors there are out there, but I'm not convinced the solution is in making everybody build the same exercises and using the exact same words. I know for myself as a student that I would never have made many breakthroughs in my own learning if someone hadn't used a slightly different turn of phrase that opened a door wide for me.

[Hannahsmom]

If someone wants my CV of who I've ridden with and what I've done, I always provide it. If someone wants to come and watch me ride and/or teach they are always welcome. I try to clinic with other professionals so that I am always continuing my education. I'm completely aware of how many bad/scary/bizaare instructors there are out there, but I'm not convinced the solution is in making everybody build the same exercises and using the exact same words. I know for myself as a student that I would never have made many breakthroughs in my own learning if someone hadn't used a slightly different turn of phrase that opened a door wide for me.

Fair enough, that sounds like good feedback for the program. But for the student or parent that isn't discerning enough to choose between what is good experience and what is "male cow excrement", a 'degree' is better. One thing I know, in PhD programs, students aren't taught so much what to do as 'a process' and how to discover. Maybe that is the essence of the difference of what you are seeing as what 'should' be.

Again, my experience with assessing competence is in a different industry. I did look far more closely at those resumes that had the CV with a good school behind them. And yes, as one with the power to hire, I was more interested in talking to them first. That doesn't mean I didn't hire people that weren't in that mold, but it did set a solid baseline. I would hope the ICP (like the BHS certification) was evolving to a similar situation.

[Joan from Flatlands]

I strongly disagree that the ICP has "rigid standardization of technique and language". That is one of the things that is so cool about the program. They do firmly believe that the horse should be forward/straight and balanced etc but they also believe there is more than one system to get individual horses and riders there.

Take for example balancing a horse in front of an XC fence. The ICP standard believes that the rider should balance their horse in front of the XC fence. They do NOT say

A. The rider MUST sit in the saddle to balance the horse in front of the fence

or

B. The rider MUST NOT sit in the saddle to balance the horse in front of the fence

or

C. The rider MUST use the sitting C postition to balance the horse in front of the fence.

Now - you will find ICP certified instructors that teach A, B or Cor teach variations of each depending on the horse and rider combination as all can be successful. What the ICP is looking for is the horse/rider combination achieves re-balance in front of the fence.

I have actually heard 2 faculty at a workshop disagree on how an aid should be applied at which point they said "We agree to disagree about this" and moved on from there. The program is very much about allowing and including different teaching styles while looking to accomplish straight, forward, balanced and SAFE riding.

Disclaimer: I am not ICP certified but my husband is. I am just trying to share what I have learned as an auditor at several workshops.

Joan from Flatlands

[PhoenixFarm]

That's interesting and heartening Joan. I audited one of the early clinics and certifications which was held at a barn I was riding at, and unfortunately found in that instnace that it was not at all the case--a very particular style of riding was being espoused, regardless of the horse, rider, or combination. Similarly, on two occaisions, a participant used a particular word or phrase to explain a concept and was corrected as "we say x".

The truth is, early on I was VERY excited about the ICP program and the idea of certification. My few expereinces with it have not been positive, and the feedback from others who have gone through it has not been wholly positive.

But if they are allowing a more individual approach perhaps I should give it another chance. But I'm not interested in spending the time and money to pass a test on things I don't agree with and will not use again. Never been a fan of "teaching the test" versus, you know, actual education.

[Guyot]

I think the ICP program is a great start to providing better instruction. It would be interesting to see if one of the assessment methods would be to send the ICP assessor to the farm and watch the ICP student teach ramdomly or for a few days at a time. Instead of spouting what they want to hear, how about watching what trainers are actually doing and give them feedback. Teachers student teach, and are given feedback in their teaching immediately after an observation. In about 4 months there are usually 6 to 8 observations. This may be a interesting way to reach more people who are unable to leave their farms but are able to pay for someone to come see their teaching style and farm management techniques fist hand.

I like the idea of having a place to start based on past history. If a trainer has been through college with an education degree, they would be able to bypass the basic teaching methods and go to a higher level of assessment, but perhaps start at the beginning for horse management. Although, it is always good to relearn ideas or new approaches, time and economics make this prohibative. (eg. a math major who wanted to go back to teach, learns just teaching methods, not additional math classes.)

My best advise to anyone who was looking to mainstream the ICP program, would be to model it after a system that is already successful, like the BHS or higher education models, they have already ironed out the kinks!!

[Stewie]

I'm heading up to one in a few weeks. How precisely are they run? Does the ICP Faculty person demonstrate how to teach a lesson at a level (what to look for, etc), and then are there like 'group' lessons with the candidate instructors, or is it one on one (one rider per candidate)? Or does each candidate instructor have one rider they're assigned to?
And then does the faculty member watch each lesson and offer assistance as to what he/she sees and would change?
Thanks ahead of time!

[Sue Hershey]

Hello. Many thought-provoking comments and questions have appeared on this thread about USEA's Instructors' Certification Program. In fact, the ICP Committee is already taking initiative with respect to a couple of your suggestions. The program is now in its sixth year of full operation, with many more Workshops being offered this year than ever before. Please take a look on the USEA website at the ICP calendar of Workshops if you are interested in joining the program.

In response to Denny Emerson about Mark Phillips and his certification, I'd like to say that Mark was assessed in June, 2007, and he is ICP-certified at Level IV. Because of an inadvertent office error, Mark and some others who were certified last year did not have the year of their certification indicated on the USEA website's Directory of Certified Instructors list. That's what Denny noticed, I guess. The year will be added this week to those instructors' names.

If you will be at Rolex, ICP invites you to stop by the Area VIII booth (next to the USEA booth) in order to have conversation with one of the certified instructor volunteers who will be there on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. ICP thanks Area VIII and Area Chair Mike Winter for providing this space for us. We will have written information about ICP as well as samples of the new ICP logowear that you might like to order. Plus, you can get a direct report of ICP Workshops, Assessments, and ICP's Continuing Education program from the ICP volunteer.

Rather than write a long treatise here in response to the many subjects introduced on this thread, I invite you to e-mail me with questions about or suggestions for ICP: swhershey@cs.com. Or, let's talk at Rolex!
Thank you. Sue Hershey, ICP Committee Co-chair

[beeblebrox]

.

[beeblebrox]

.

[Sue Hershey]

In answer to beeblebrox, instructors must have 3 students from one or more of the highest competition levels as defined by their ICP Level verify in writing that they've taken lessons from that instructor -- before that instructor may be assessed at the ICP Level in question.

So, for an instructor asking to be assessed at Level II, for instance, 3 of her past and/or current students should have ridden at Preliminary horse trials level, Training Level half-star level, CIC* level, and/or CCI* level. And similarly for the other ICP Levels.

If an instructor does not have or has not had such students at the highest competition levels as defined by his/her requested ICP Level, then, at Level I or II, that instructor can be assessed and, if successful, certified at Level I or Level II if she herself has had sufficient education and shows sufficient eye, knowledge, judgment, and skill in her teaching. She would be awarded a provisional ICP certificate, with the hope that she would acquire Prelminary and/or one star students in the future. ICP awards provisional certificates only at Levels I and II and not at Levels III and IV. ICP introduced the provisional concept because some instructors live in areas of the U.S. where there are not many event competitors, yet these instructors can have backgrounds that prepared them to teach up through higher competition levels than those ridden by their current students.

It is possible that some instructor has gotten riders to verify a relationship with that instructor that did or does not actually exist as such. This would be a perversion of the system of which ICP was unaware. If you believe that this has happened, please contact me: swhershey@cs.com. Thank you.

[beeblebrox]

.

[Joan from Flatlands]

To Stewie:

Here is the schedule for our upcoming workshop w Don Sachey in Area I April 20 - 22

Day 1:
8a – 10a Unmounted meeting in classroom
10a – 12p Demo lessons taught by Don. 2 private lessons
12p – 1p Lunch on grounds for candidates
1p – 5p 30 minute practice teaching by candidates

Day 2: Same as Day 1

Day 3:
8a – 9a Unmounted meeting in classroom
9a– 11a Demo lessons taught by Don. 2 private lessons
11a – 12p 2 candidates practice teaching 30 min interval
12p – 1230p Lunch on grounds for candidates
1230p – 330p 6 remaining candidates teaching 30 min intervals
330p – 530p Individual meeting w each candidate instructor

Each of the candidate instructors attending this workship will also attend the Jumping Workshop at Scarlet Hill in early July w Phyllis Dawson and Robin Walker. So - before attending an assessment, they each will have taught 6 lessons(and most likely to 6 different horse/rider combinations) in front of 3 different faculty, There is a group discussion w the faculty after each lesson taught then a private discussion w each individual candidate at the end of the workshop. These are really working/learning workshops.

The workshop my husband attended as a candidate was one of the earlier ones and had 16 participating instructors from all over the country. I cant tell you how cool it was to sit and chat w the other candidates about everything involved w making your living in the sport of eventing - everything from purchasing insurance to dealing w the PITA client to discussing their favorite gymnastic exercises! We were also able to identify some excellent instructors from different parts of the country - one of which became one of our student's instructor when she went off to college in a different area.

I will also say that not every instructor we watched teach in the workshops was IMO ready to be certified - but how great is it that those who really needed to improve their teaching were getting the information to help them do so in the workshops.

So (shameless plug) ... those of you in Area I interested in learning more about the program - come join us as an auditor for our workshop April 20 -22 at the Johnson and Wales Equine Center in Rehoboth MA! Cost for auditing is $50 oer day. Feel free to email me for details - flatlands3@aol.com

Joan from Flatlands

[poltroon]

I have not had the pleasure of directly attending any of the ICP sessions, but I am very pleased the reports I've heard from the program. One of the key aspects that impressed me was that it sounds like there is some real discussion of how to teach and how to plan lessons and developing a progression. As far as I've seen, there's no other curriculum in the US that talks about rider development in such a systemic fashion. Most people learn to teach based on how they were taught, and watching others, but they don't have any real *plan* where they make sure that a rider is deliberately exposed to all the concepts, or how one lesson flows into another. They just evaluate the rider in front of them and then pick the most glaring problem evident, and go after that. The rider may never have been taught some concepts that she appears to demonstrate - and thus, those concepts may not actually be solid.

I am sure that there are instructors out there who do this and have learned it - else, how would it have found its way into ICP. But most equine professionals get no real instruction in instruction (or in running a business, or in ethics) other than trying to model a mentor.

I was pleased and impressed that all the instructors went through the program - including people who have taught international riders - no one was just grandfathered. They got to take their lumps with everyone else, and they got a chance to stretch.

I too have heard that the opportunity for people to get to know other trainers as instructor/colleagues was very valuable.

Any time I find myself looking for a new instructor in the future, I would try an ICP instructor first.

By contrast, I was a demo rider for the USDF program, and while I am sure it is a useful program for some, I didn't feel that it particularly improved the people I saw. It felt more like a straight evaluation than a real growth opportunity for the instructors, and perhaps because the upper level USDF trainers have not gone through it, I haven't felt the same vibe of 'betterness' for people with that certification.

Indeed, even if I were riding straight dressage, and going through a directory listing only, I would consider an ICP instructor before a USDF instructor, if the ICP instructor was at an appropriate level.

[Hannahsmom]

Sue,
Thanks for the popping in. I hope my starting this thread isn't seen negatively, I just hadn't heard much about the ICP other than some very high level articles so was interested in hearing how people were perceiving it. Not everyone can be at Rolex (myself, for example, as I have a major system for a project going production as a culmination of three years of effort) but this thread was another great way to let people know about the booth, a good thing, right? :)

I was happy to see the ICP instructer listing in the Omnibus as a friend is considering making a move to another location, and I was able to point out a person in the listing and say, make sure you call this person first.

I, for one, will be happy to put myself and my horse out there as a test 'pupil'. So LAZ, if you do hold the clinic in the future, I would definitely be up for auditing or being a guinea pig student if I can arrange it.

[Pandarus33]

Without reading every post, I can answer the original question regarding my own choice not to test. I only teach a handful of students, run my own boarding/lesson barn with virtually no help, raised two kids by myself for the last 7 years and hold down a full-time job that pays the bills. For me to out-lay the cash for testing AND find the time is next to impossible.

On the other hand, I have a friend who is certified and have passed many students to her when they were ready to move on up the levels. I have no desire to teach past Novice so it makes no sense to get certified when Jen is only 15 minutes away. I'll gladly keep passing them her way!

[Sue Hershey]

In second response to beeblebrox -- in fact, only one instructor of all those certified to date has received a provisional ICP certificate, at Level II. "Provisional" is indicated next to her name on the USEA's website list, the ICP Directory of Instructors.

I write to say this because from your response to my words about provisional, you seem to understand that many instructors use the provisional option. This is not true. Only one so far, out of 125 certified to date. Provisional is an option only where it really fits an instructor's eventing experience/learning/teaching skill and current life circumstances in terms of available students. The Assessment standards for the provisional certificate are exactly the same as for a non-provisional instructor. Thanks

[merrygoround]

Money & time, and the lack of any financial remuneration for having such a certification.

[purplnurpl]

Money & time, and the lack of any financial remuneration for having such a certification.

I was just about to say that.

I would love an ICP cert. I think it would make me a better all round horseman.

AND I sent in a app for our Adult Riders Scholarship.

But now after reading all of this, (I didn't really understand what it was all about before this thread. I thought it was a one weekend deal) I see that a 500 dollar scholarship won't get me very far.

So now I will not go for one because of lack of money.

[Joan from Flatlands]

Cost for the 3 day workshop for participating instructors is $400. This fee is set by the ICP and as I mentioned earlier really just covers the costs associated w the clinic. Im not sure what the cost for the assessment is these days but if Sue H pops back in Im sure she can answer that. We found that the savings on our yearly liability insurance covered these costs within 2 years.

Joan from Flatlands

[beeblebrox]

.

[lstevenson]

I have heard from some respected instructers when I ask why they don't have this that it is "expensive" but I was wondering what reasons there were that more instructers didn't embrace this to have this 'creditation' with their name?



I have thought about doing it. But for myself the reasons are that it is very expensive, I don't have the extra time, and frankly I don't see the benefit of it.

Many years ago, I did the BHS instructor exams and I feel like that was a waste of my money and time. I was already experienced and good at teaching before I went to England. And after jumping through all of the hoops (VERY comprehensive tests) I feel like the only benefit was a discount on my professional liability insurance. Which they don't even do anymore! I am told that they only give a discount for certification that you renew every year.

I personally think that it is more important for an instructor to have shown that they can train horses from scratch to the top levels, and to have spent a lifetime learning from the best coaches. It's like the difference between proving practical skills and just book learning.

And of course it should almost go without saying that their students should be progressing rapidly.

Certification just doesn't mean that much to me. All of the best instructors I know are not certified. They are just talented and have lots of real life teaching and competing experience. And I have seen plenty of certified instructors who I think are pretty bad. The proof is in the results, not the title.

[poltroon]

Certification just doesn't mean that much to me. All of the best instructors I know are not certified. They are just talented and have lots of real life teaching and competing experience. And I have seen plenty of certified instructors who I think are pretty bad. The proof is in the results, not the title.

Just curious - are you speaking of certification in general, or ICP certification in particular with this statement?

[Absolut]

I think the proof is in the results, absolutely. Marry the two...ICP and solid results year after year and you have an instructor that has proved their knowledge in multiple ways.

One does not have to become Certified to prove their knowledge, however, it was important to me to participate in the program from the beginning. I wanted to be a part of ICP and do not regret the expense, or time. Instead I treasure the friendships. Eric, Don, Karen, Sue and Nancy Myers all are great examples of ambassadors of the sport.

The ICP program also offers tremendous resources with the Google email group for all instructors where one can post and recieve information in an instant. We are advertised in the Omnibus. Sue and I have shared training theories on many occasions via email. Many clients came via the US Eventing listing. It becomes an invaluable networking tool within our sport and the USEA is very supportive of us in my opinion.

On another note I do not think rapid progression of students is an accurate indicator of a successful program. I steer mine toward a year a level and two years at prelim before moving up. Just a personal preference that has proved its worth over the years. Their percentage of successful xc runs, stadium rounds and good dressage scores are where I find a true picture of a successful program.

[RunForIt]

In second response to beeblebrox -- in fact, only one instructor of all those certified to date has received a provisional ICP certificate, at Level II. "Provisional" is indicated next to her name on the USEA's website list, the ICP Directory of Instructors.

I write to say this because from your response to my words about provisional, you seem to understand that many instructors use the provisional option. This is not true. Only one so far, out of 125 certified to date. Provisional is an option only where it really fits an instructor's eventing experience/learning/teaching skill and current life circumstances in terms of available students. The Assessment standards for the provisional certificate are exactly the same as for a non-provisional instructor. Thanks

Sue,

this is NOT a response to the content of your post, but rather to the fact that you are RESPONDING!!!! THANK YOU!!!!! :D :D :D

I am the possible recipient of ICP lessons - so I am quite appreciative of the fact that you are reading and thinking about the ideas expressed here. As I'm sure you've noted, all the positives and negatives are elaborated on - not just named. Its certainly helped me think about lessons and what ICP instructors may be equipped to help me with as a "learning eventer" as opposed to a trainer or instructor who does not have this training and certification.

As a teacher and a teacher of teachers (I'm both) - I know that what I have to teach kids and teachers are lines of thinking that can be applied in many books, in many pieces of writing - in other words, I "teach the writer, not the present piece of writing" - I teach the reader, not a specific story. So it needs to go for riders - we need to learn skills that are pervasive across all flatwork, across all types of XC questions, across all types of stadium questions.

the participants in this particular BB are very good at analyzing...thank you for giving us an ear. another plus for the USEA!

[RunForIt]

I have thought about doing it. But for myself the reasons are that it is very expensive, I don't have the extra time, and frankly I don't see the benefit of it.

Many years ago, I did the BHS instructor exams and I feel like that was a waste of my money and time. I was already experienced and good at teaching before I went to England. And after jumping through all of the hoops (VERY comprehensive tests) I feel like the only benefit was a discount on my professional liability insurance. Which they don't even do anymore! I am told that they only give a discount for certification that you renew every year.

I personally think that it is more important for an instructor to have shown that they can train horses from scratch to the top levels, and to have spent a lifetime learning from the best coaches. It's like the difference between proving practical skills and just book learning.

And of course it should almost go without saying that their students should be progressing rapidly.

Certification just doesn't mean that much to me. All of the best instructors I know are not certified. They are just talented and have lots of real life teaching and competing experience. And I have seen plenty of certified instructors who I think are pretty bad. The proof is in the results, not the title.

I can understand where you are coming from - you also have the benefit of a strong foundation in dressage which has a specific training scale...eventing training does not have this framework. I expect that the dressage framework has shaped how you think about and implement your eventing instruction.

The benefit I see in the ICP is a common set of principles, goals, vocabulary, and guidelines for skills...its luck of the draw from other trainers.

[wanderlust]

I want to be a big fan of the ICP, I really do. However, 2 of the most frightening, misinformed, misinforming instructors in my immediate area are ICP. Nice people for sure, but their own riding is not good, their students are mismounted, and my jaw drops on a regular basis with the instruction that comes out of their mouths.

And this is my problem with ICP certification- it gives a stamp of approval to parents who don't know any better. I've even heard in reference to one of the aforementioned, after a cross-country schooling where several students crashed and a horse was hurt enough to be laid up for a year: "But he says that crashing is just a part of eventing, and, well, he's a certified eventing instructor."

[RunForIt]

I want to be a big fan of the ICP, I really do. However, 2 of the most frightening, misinformed, misinforming instructors in my immediate area are ICP. Nice people for sure, but their own riding is not good, their students are mismounted, and my jaw drops on a regular basis with the instruction that comes out of their mouths.

Then there are folks like beeblebrox, who's students are safely and appropriately mounted, get better and better and better the longer they are with her, and she gives fabulous, information-packed lessons. No ICP certification, but I'd pick her over 99% of the folks who are certified level I/II in our area.

And this is my problem with ICP certification- it gives a stamp of approval to parents who don't know any better. I've even heard in reference to one of the aforementioned, after a cross-country schooling where several students crashed and a horse was hurt enough to be laid up for a year: "But he says that crashing is just a part of eventing, and, well, he's a certified eventing instructor."

So, Sue Hershey,

what can be done about this sort of situation, which is obviously not a one-stop location!????!!

Throwing out the baby with the bath water is not the solution - but the problem needs to be remedied. We'll be happy to add to your ideas. The ICP is a splendid concept when it works; reflection, rethinking, revising - taking the ideas to the qualified folks to consider are ways to get better. what steps can be taken to make sure this program works in all areas of the country?

[lstevenson]

Just curious - are you speaking of certification in general, or ICP certification in particular with this statement?


Certification in general.

[lstevenson]

On another note I do not think rapid progression of students is an accurate indicator of a successful program.



I don't mean moving up the levels quickly. I mean a rapid progression of improvement in the horse/rider combination.

I see students who have been riding with one instructor for many years, and they haven't improved one bit as riders. If a riders technique and knowledge is not constantly improving, it's a failure of the instructor IMO.

[annikak]

as ya all know, I am an ICP fan, and support the program. There is not an ICP person that I would take from near me until today-

Okay, she is not there yet, but attended a clinic or 2- and I can honestly say- what a change! She has always been a great person, and a talented horsewoman, and she has masses of students- so is already an excellent instructor. We did not do what I wanted to do, as Mr. Horse did not agree with us today, but I could tell she had plan..or rather a plan B as plan A was not happening. It was a great lesson.

I also have to put in a plug for the French Certification system. I ride with a BB member who I am lucky enough to have live close enough to take lessons with, and while not an ICP person, is "rated" in France to teach thru Intermidiate...not that I am ever going to GO intermediate! But, from the get go, she has many ways to say the same thing, and ways to work with different horses. Nothing cookie-cutter about it at all, just a systematic approach to teaching.

A fan, yes, I am a fan.

I still think, however, that someone needs to check up on some of the ICP people that are certified and have been for a long time. I understand that CMP was just Re-upped, but wonder about a few others. I know that a few bad eggs are here and there are in every program. Overall, the program is great! Good Job Sue!

[Absolut]

lstevenson, I understand what you mean now. Sorry for the mis-interpretation.

[Sue Hershey]

Hello, again. Since I'd like to mention several different things, I'm going to number them -- for clarity, I hope!

1.) Some of the comments in this thread have listed difficulties various people see in a system like ICP.

Some of those are cost, time, no fast track, instructors needing education but not wanting to join the program, good instructors seeing little need for formal education like ICP, some certified instructors not seeming good enough, an ICP-"dictated" style of teaching...

About cost: Cindy Burge grants; ICP Boosters' grants for Level I or II instructors from Areas III, IV, IX; scholarships or loans from organizations like pony clubs; one's own students or horse owners or family or friends chipping in; staying in homes rather than motels when at Workshops. (I would like to note that ICP faculty and assessors are doing their ICP work for considerably less income than they would earn if they were using that time to offer clinics of their own.)

About time: I would note only this. > Education for instructing event riding -- a risk sport requiring skill, knowledge, feel, attention, responsibility, judgment in both instructor and student -- in only 6 days for I/II and 3 days for III/IV??? Compare this with 2 years of technical school or 4 years of college plus graduate school -- with respect to both time and cost!

About no fast track: one of the most impressive aspects of ICP has been the willingness -- the eagerness -- of some of the most knowledgeable and proficient riders/competitors/instructors in the nation to continue to develop their deep understanding of horses, riders, and teaching by attending ICP Workshops/Assessment. They seek always to know more, to understand better, to see more clearly, to use better judgment in selecting exercises/movements to improve horse/rider skills and understanding. And they seek to learn from others. ICP made an initial decision to not grandfather anyone because, in part, those who would have been the likely recipients of such a privilege did not want to use it.

About not joining up when you need to: I am an optimist. I think that eventually anyone teaching event riding will seek some formal education like ICP.

About already-good instructors seeing no need in their own case: See above under fast track. Already-good instructors have joined and will continue to do so because they like to keep learning -- from others as well as on their own.

About some certified instructors not seeming good enough: ICP has a Complaint Resolution Procedure. If someone observes a certified instructor teaching or coaching in a way that seems to be unsafe or unprofessional, that observer, who must identify him- or herself, may discuss the observation with a member of the ICP Committee. In circumstances where this procedure has been followed, the outcome has been positive: the instructor has indicated that s/he benefited from the resolution.

About an ICP-"dictated" style of teaching: This doesn't exist, so I don't know what anyone means when saying this. What are some of the things that we do recommend? -- Knowledge and use of a sensible and safe lesson plan structure. Knowledge of the meaning of and exercises for internationally used dressage language like, for instance, "loosening, working gaits, tempo, rhythm, bending, suppleness, shortening/lengthening, collection, cadence, self-carriage." Plus, knowledge of the meaning and purposes of all the specific dressage movements up through third/fourth level dressage. And for jumping, knowledge of the meaning of and exercises for "sufficient engagement and impulsion, balance, straightness, calmness, elasticity, adjustability of speed, direction, balance."

(I myself would like to add this: a basic understanding of physics. Physics? Yes. Movement across the ground together with a large, live animal, whether on the flat or over fences, is determined by the laws of physics (and biology). The best riders and horses learn how to move with a felt understanding of the effects of gravity, action/reaction, sloping and flat terrain, friction/resistance, balance, torque... I'll stop now!)

The ICP curriculum is based upon the German National Equestrian Federation Books I and 2 for dressage and upon Tait, Wofford, Phillips, Morris, Fargis, Madden's books, articles, videos for jumping technique. For horse and stable management, teaching theory and practice, safety/medical issues, and professionalism ICP relies upon a variety of texts listed in our required reading list found in the ICP Standards Booklet and also in the ICP Workbook. The ICP Assessment includes written and hands-on tests of these subjects (horse and stable management, etc.) These many works all build upon classical riding principles and practices, up-dated where solid additional ideas have been developed. In other words, this curriculum is based upon a well-established set of equestrian sources, used internationally by most of the best dressage, jumper, and eventing instructors and riders.

ICP also has a Continuing Education Program with requirements for certified instructors, as do most other professional careers.

2.) It is fun to read what some of you have said on this thread concerning what you like best about ICP Workshops and about becoming certified and belonging to a group of professional people doing work every day like your own. Several of you rejoice in the good feeling that comes when at Workshops you hear new concepts, share your own ideas and experiences, ask good questions, see better, develop better judgment about when, how, and why to use which exercise or movement to effect the kind of change for which you and your student are looking.

Then some of you note that your own instructor has become more articulate, more specific, when she or he teaches. I believe this is due in large part to the quality of professional conversation that naturally occurs at Workshops. Professional instructors are together in a sharing and learning environment; they ask serious questions and they offer serious answers. They experiment safely for improvement with willing riders and horses. There is a feeling of exuberance when a small group like those at Workshops takes hold of ideas intensely and eagerly. And they laugh together, too!

It is my observation that about 80% of what instructors at Workshops already know is shared by most of the other instructors there. The remaining 20% in each instructor's mind is unique and special information based upon each instructor's own history of riding, learning from this or that instructor/coach, competing, horse care, kinds of horses ridden, etc. Instructors at Workshops enjoy confirming the 80% even as they open their minds to everyone else's additional 20%.

3.) About other instructor education programs:

So far, ICP does not reciprocate with BHS, the Canadian Instructor System, the Australian system, etc. We do not do this because no one has yet compared all of these systems to evaluate where and where not they are equivalent. As a result, none of these systems so far reciprocates with any other system, as far as I know.

A possible relationship of ICP with respect to the International Instructor Passport? ICP is engaged in researching this and will publish its conclusions.

4.) Concrete benefits to being ICP-certified:
I say "concrete" because I've already expressed above some of the intellectual and even emotional benefits that come from being a professional event instructor in sync with fellow professionals.

*Reduced premium for professional insurance from Broadstone and others
*Lifetime reduction of 10% on all products from Bit of Britain
*Free advertising of name, contact information, website on
USEA website and in USEA Omnibus
*Reduced rate at annual ICP Jumping Symposium in Florida in January
*Opportunity to be mentored or to offer mentoring to other instructors
*Communication with all other certified instructors through Googlegroups e-mail
*On-going professional and collegial conversation and work with other certified instructors
*Opportunity to write articles for Eventing USA
*Marketing of the ICP by means of articles written for Eventing USA

_________________

Enough! If someone would like more information or would like to comment or question, please use my own e-mail address: swhershey@cs.com. I don't have enough ICP time to use it very often here on The Forum! Thank you, Sue

[JER]

I want to be a big fan of the ICP, I really do. However, 2 of the most frightening, misinformed, misinforming instructors in my immediate area are ICP. Nice people for sure, but their own riding is not good, their students are mismounted, and my jaw drops on a regular basis with the instruction that comes out of their mouths.


wanderlust, I suspect you live in California.

I'd hoped the ICP would be a kick in the pants for some of these people but I guess you can learn the routine for the test and then go back to your old bad habits.

[poltroon]

Thank you, Sue, for taking the time to comment here. :)

[Hannahsmom]

Wow, Sue that was the most complete, succinct summing up about ICP I have ever heard addressing cost, equivalency, and motivation.
Bravo! :yes:

And your comment about comparing the cost of the ICP to the cost of college, masters programs, etc., you are definitely right, the ICP costs pale in comparison.

I think the networking alone would be a great thing. I learned a lot from my peers when studying for some certification. The curriculum gave us a starting point in those discussions. Conferences are good but for some reason, when you are all trying to get certified, the discussions got more specific around the topics and we had great debates. It was fun, like college days but with better war stories!

[Kanga]

Sue-

About time: I would note only this. > Education for instructing event riding -- a risk sport requiring skill, knowledge, feel, attention, responsibility, judgment in both instructor and student -- in only 6 days for I/II and 3 days for III/IV??? Compare this with 2 years of technical school or 4 years of college plus graduate school -- with respect to both time and cost!

***This I feel is one of the problems with the program. Anyone that wants to be a good trainer in this sport should know that it is going to take time. I mean YEARS not days. Doing workshops over a weekend then going home and reading books DOES NOT immerse these people in any type of good system. Many of them need to go and train for years to be prepared to take much more complex test then what I see happening in the ICP. Of course there are already going to be "some" people that have that experience and years and will not need to do so other than to brush up on certain things prior to exams. However, I don't think that is the majority. I too have seen many poor instructors slip through this system because they have memorized something but really have no idea what they are talking about. The BHS, the Germans, the French and about every other country over there have preparation courses where students are living 24/7 in the environment learning everything. THAT IS HORSEMANSHIP, what we are lacking here in America. Yes, everyone IT TAKES TIME!!!!



So far, ICP does not reciprocate with BHS, the Canadian Instructor System, the Australian system, etc. We do not do this because no one has yet compared all of these systems to evaluate where and where not they are equivalent. As a result, none of these systems so far reciprocates with any other system, as far as I know.

This statement is not correct. I am unsure of the Canadian Instructors System. But all the other system DO participate in the International Instructors Passports. They are issued through which ever system you have gone through. I received mine from the BHS. You must apply for them after you have passed exams and fill some paper work out and pay a fee. But, all these different countries ARE working together and have come up with standards for each level they issue.


A possible relationship of ICP with respect to the International Instructor Passport? ICP is engaged in researching this and will publish its conclusions.

I hope that this can happen in the future. Most likely there will need to be much more hands on practical(Stable Management) and RIDING in the curriculum of the ICP since that is what all the other systems are doing.

[cyberbay]

It is just plain inaccurate to compare the profession of riding and teaching to other professions. Because nearly every other profession is organized, has a functioning trade association that lobbys (sp?) in state capitols and in Washington for tax breaks and favorable legislation, has a functioning insurance system, and has many other protections in place that allows their business to function like a business.

Getting into the horse business to train and teach is a great way to hang yourself out to dry. Because there are NO business protections. So, maybe it's great to get the education, but when the graduate cannot recoup the costs of the education and has to function in environment that offers no positive legal framework and is forced to function on a financial highwire, it is simply wrong to ask professionals and budding professionals to treat certification as "necessary."

Honestly, I sometimes think certification is the cart before the horse. Let's put our effort into forming a sensible environment in which horsepeople can conduct business appropriately with the buying public -- and not be subject to unfair taxes, litigiousness, and biased laws. Then, general instructor certification, with discipline specialties, will be a natural outgrowth of this.

Right now, I see the ICP program as trying to standardize riding in a horse industry that is more in tune with the Wild West (not just eventing but the whole industry) -- in other words, it does whatever it wants and attracts people who want the lack of structure. You can argue that instructor certification will be the first step to normalizing the industry, but it would be at best (a very) slow route.

[RunForIt]

Hello, again. Since I'd like to mention several different things, I'm going to number them -- for clarity, I hope!

1.) Some of the comments in this thread have listed difficulties various people see in a system like ICP.

Some of those are cost, time, no fast track, instructors needing education but not wanting to join the program, good instructors seeing little need for formal education like ICP, some certified instructors not seeming good enough, an ICP-"dictated" style of teaching...

About cost: Cindy Burge grants; ICP Boosters' grants for Level I or II instructors from Areas III, IV, IX; scholarships or loans from organizations like pony clubs; one's own students or horse owners or family or friends chipping in; staying in homes rather than motels when at Workshops. (I would like to note that ICP faculty and assessors are doing their ICP work for considerably less income than they would earn if they were using that time to offer clinics of their own.)

About time: I would note only this. > Education for instructing event riding -- a risk sport requiring skill, knowledge, feel, attention, responsibility, judgment in both instructor and student -- in only 6 days for I/II and 3 days for III/IV??? Compare this with 2 years of technical school or 4 years of college plus graduate school -- with respect to both time and cost!

About no fast track: one of the most impressive aspects of ICP has been the willingness -- the eagerness -- of some of the most knowledgeable and proficient riders/competitors/instructors in the nation to continue to develop their deep understanding of horses, riders, and teaching by attending ICP Workshops/Assessment. They seek always to know more, to understand better, to see more clearly, to use better judgment in selecting exercises/movements to improve horse/rider skills and understanding. And they seek to learn from others. ICP made an initial decision to not grandfather anyone because, in part, those who would have been the likely recipients of such a privilege did not want to use it.

About not joining up when you need to: I am an optimist. I think that eventually anyone teaching event riding will seek some formal education like ICP.

About already-good instructors seeing no need in their own case: See above under fast track. Already-good instructors have joined and will continue to do so because they like to keep learning -- from others as well as on their own.

About some certified instructors not seeming good enough: ICP has a Complaint Resolution Procedure. If someone observes a certified instructor teaching or coaching in a way that seems to be unsafe or unprofessional, that observer, who must identify him- or herself, may discuss the observation with a member of the ICP Committee. In circumstances where this procedure has been followed, the outcome has been positive: the instructor has indicated that s/he benefited from the resolution.

About an ICP-"dictated" style of teaching: This doesn't exist, so I don't know what anyone means when saying this. What are some of the things that we do recommend? -- Knowledge and use of a sensible and safe lesson plan structure. Knowledge of the meaning of and exercises for internationally used dressage language like, for instance, "loosening, working gaits, tempo, rhythm, bending, suppleness, shortening/lengthening, collection, cadence, self-carriage." Plus, knowledge of the meaning and purposes of all the specific dressage movements up through third/fourth level dressage. And for jumping, knowledge of the meaning of and exercises for "sufficient engagement and impulsion, balance, straightness, calmness, elasticity, adjustability of speed, direction, balance."

(I myself would like to add this: a basic understanding of physics. Physics? Yes. Movement across the ground together with a large, live animal, whether on the flat or over fences, is determined by the laws of physics (and biology). The best riders and horses learn how to move with a felt understanding of the effects of gravity, action/reaction, sloping and flat terrain, friction/resistance, balance, torque... I'll stop now!)

The ICP curriculum is based upon the German National Equestrian Federation Books I and 2 for dressage and upon Tait, Wofford, Phillips, Morris, Fargis, Madden's books, articles, videos for jumping technique. For horse and stable management, teaching theory and practice, safety/medical issues, and professionalism ICP relies upon a variety of texts listed in our required reading list found in the ICP Standards Booklet and also in the ICP Workbook. The ICP Assessment includes written and hands-on tests of these subjects (horse and stable management, etc.) These many works all build upon classical riding principles and practices, up-dated where solid additional ideas have been developed. In other words, this curriculum is based upon a well-established set of equestrian sources, used internationally by most of the best dressage, jumper, and eventing instructors and riders.

ICP also has a Continuing Education Program with requirements for certified instructors, as do most other professional careers.

2.) It is fun to read what some of you have said on this thread concerning what you like best about ICP Workshops and about becoming certified and belonging to a group of professional people doing work every day like your own. Several of you rejoice in the good feeling that comes when at Workshops you hear new concepts, share your own ideas and experiences, ask good questions, see better, develop better judgment about when, how, and why to use which exercise or movement to effect the kind of change for which you and your student are looking.

Then some of you note that your own instructor has become more articulate, more specific, when she or he teaches. I believe this is due in large part to the quality of professional conversation that naturally occurs at Workshops. Professional instructors are together in a sharing and learning environment; they ask serious questions and they offer serious answers. They experiment safely for improvement with willing riders and horses. There is a feeling of exuberance when a small group like those at Workshops takes hold of ideas intensely and eagerly. And they laugh together, too!

It is my observation that about 80% of what instructors at Workshops already know is shared by most of the other instructors there. The remaining 20% in each instructor's mind is unique and special information based upon each instructor's own history of riding, learning from this or that instructor/coach, competing, horse care, kinds of horses ridden, etc. Instructors at Workshops enjoy confirming the 80% even as they open their minds to everyone else's additional 20%.

3.) About other instructor education programs:

So far, ICP does not reciprocate with BHS, the Canadian Instructor System, the Australian system, etc. We do not do this because no one has yet compared all of these systems to evaluate where and where not they are equivalent. As a result, none of these systems so far reciprocates with any other system, as far as I know.

A possible relationship of ICP with respect to the International Instructor Passport? ICP is engaged in researching this and will publish its conclusions.

4.) Concrete benefits to being ICP-certified:
I say "concrete" because I've already expressed above some of the intellectual and even emotional benefits that come from being a professional event instructor in sync with fellow professionals.

*Reduced premium for professional insurance from Broadstone and others
*Lifetime reduction of 10% on all products from Bit of Britain
*Free advertising of name, contact information, website on
USEA website and in USEA Omnibus
*Reduced rate at annual ICP Jumping Symposium in Florida in January
*Opportunity to be mentored or to offer mentoring to other instructors
*Communication with all other certified instructors through Googlegroups e-mail
*On-going professional and collegial conversation and work with other certified instructors
*Opportunity to write articles for Eventing USA
*Marketing of the ICP by means of articles written for Eventing USA

_________________

Enough! If someone would like more information or would like to comment or question, please use my own e-mail address: swhershey@cs.com. I don't have enough ICP time to use it very often here on The Forum! Thank you, Sue

Many, many, MANY thanks for the thought and time that went into this response. :winkgrin: :)

I do hope you continue to post and respond on this BB at least once per week as the discussion among a big group like this is much more helpful to expanding and enriching thinking (and maybe our RIDING ? ! :eek: :winkgrin: :D :) ) than single emails.

Truly, Sue - we appreciate all that you've done in acknowledging our concerns, thoughts, suggestions, and concerns.

Another : way to go USEA from a MEMBER! :winkgrin: :cool:

[pwynnnorman]

About no fast track: one of the most impressive aspects of ICP has been the willingness -- the eagerness -- of some of the most knowledgeable and proficient riders/competitors/instructors in the nation to continue to develop their deep understanding of horses, riders, and teaching by attending ICP Workshops/Assessment. They seek always to know more, to understand better, to see more clearly, to use better judgment in selecting exercises/movements to improve horse/rider skills and understanding. And they seek to learn from others. ICP made an initial decision to not grandfather anyone because, in part, those who would have been the likely recipients of such a privilege did not want to use it.


Sue, I think you missed (because I didn't elaborate sufficiently) why fast-tracking might be of benefit to the program. It's great that some top folks have been willing to go through the process, but that's "some," not all. And IMO the numbers are important to the program. Folks have been talking about lack of access to ICP instructors. And smaller numbers also mean fewer leaders and role models (in a given area) for other pros to emulate. The more there are, the more visible they are (which the top names contribute to), the more desirable, legitimate, respected, integral, etc. the program and system it represents can become.

In my mind (but it didn't get onto the screen), I was thinking about the dearth of judges in hunterdom when I tossed fast-tracking out there. In some endeavors, there is a postive "tipping point" or "threshold" or "rolling stone" effect in which sheer weight or sheer numbers alone produce an acceleration that other tactics--and even time itself--can't do. Indeed, isn't it such that the lesser names are coached by the BNT names, and so on and so forth? It would be a natural process for BNTs to also pass along the value of ICP to their students...and the more that were doing that, the more likely the resulting trickle-down effect could become more like a steady stream rather than a trickle. Indeed, the camaraderie of fellow students and younger pros in going through the program together could even be initiated through the leadership of the BNT at the center of their experiences.

Sorry, but I think in terms of pretty big pictures sometimes. I fear there is a tendency to compartmentalize plans and strategies, effects and results, when there is an interconnection that represents potential and opportunity and synergy and all sorts of stuff. So it's not just that "some" have, in my opinion. I think a valid goal would be that "most" do. Just imagine where it could go from there.

Another quick thing I'd like to toss out: What about a survey? Wouldn't that be a decent way to find out how things are going, both within and beyond the program? (Another area where it'd be nice if horsedom could borrow from realworldom, IMO. Everyone here is just guessing and providing anecdotes as evidence. Just like the safety issue. Data, please?)

I'd also like to add that I sure hope the new interest in these BBs don't result in everyone with a stake in what is discussed feeling the need to come on and defend their work. It's just discussion. It's been going on here for a long time, even if only recently more have started paying attention to the discussions. I'm very troubled by the number of folks working earnestly and hard to improve and promote the sport, and allow it to offer opportunities in a wonderful variety of areas, who express negative feelings about the discussions we have here. I wish everyone would just relax. I fear the chilling effect of having the powers-that-be looking over everyone's shoulder now. The phenomena of internet BBs is well-established and a valid source of feedback, ideas, and idiocy. I wish folks would accept it and relax. I feel bad for those who are worrying about what a few bored folks toss around for a little stimulation and enlightenment.

[RunForIt]

I don't know if a "sense of urgency" isn't needed right now, PWynn. "patronizing the masses" with global, undefined phrases has been the general mode of operation until now- I rather appreciate the USEA big names listening and responding directly to the thinking presented on this BB. If anything, its at least an approximation of the sort of thinking, discussion, refining ideas that caused you to write of your frustration a few days ago ( a feeling and stance I share with you - an on-going cyle of rigorous thinking, planning, and reviewing all that's out there is what's mandatory for eventing at this point in time) .

In the meantime, I'm for applauding any small efforts toward the goals we believe are critical to eventing. many of these folks are new to this dimension. :cool:

[pwynnnorman]

I don't know if a "sense of urgency" isn't needed right now, PWynn. "patronizing the masses" with global, undefined phrases has been the general mode of operation until now- I rather appreciate the USEA big names listening and responding directly to the thinking presented on this BB. If anything, its at least an approximation of the sort of thinking, discussion, refining ideas that caused you to write of your frustration a few days ago ( a feeling and stance I share with you - an on-going cyle of rigorous thinking, planning, and reviewing all that's out there is what's mandatory for eventing at this point in time) .

In the meantime, I'm for applauding any small efforts toward the goals we believe are critical to eventing. many of these folks are new to this dimension. :cool:

I appreciate them listening, too, but I felt really bad that Sue wrote so much to defend ICP. That must have taken her a lot of time and clearly she cares a heck of lot about what people think. I'm just not sure our collective comments should be burden folks like her. BBs aren't necessarily representative of any real segment of stakeholders.

Also, RunForIt, yesterday--maybe jsut coincidentally, maybe not--not only did I see Sue's reaction here, but I got two emails from similarly involved people expressing dissatisfaction with our discussions here. Should we think about how what we say impacts them and their feelings for the projects they care about and have often volunteered to work on? Yes, and I'm sure most of us do care. But it's hard to communicate honest opinions while worrying about damaging the reputation of someone's hard-worked project. I just hope those whose projects are discussed can find balance and parity in what is stated here vs. what they encounter elsewhere.

[Hannahsmom]

I'd also like to add that I sure hope the new interest in these BBs don't result in everyone with a stake in what is discussed feeling the need to come on and defend their work. It's just discussion. It's been going on here for a long time, even if only recently more have started paying attention to the discussions. I'm very troubled by the number of folks working earnestly and hard to improve and promote the sport, and allow it to offer opportunities in a wonderful variety of areas, who express negative feelings about the discussions we have here.

Thank you Pwynn....that's exactly why I started this thread. I'm a huge fan of the concept, I am not an instructer and have been dying to audit but work has gotten in the way every time one is held within 6 hours. If people go back to my original post, I meant this whole discussion to be in a positive light as I believe feedback is always a good thing.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

hannahsmom (Hi!) - I have audited umm, 4 (?) sessions of the ICP - years back roll-out weekends at Morven and Ledyard with Mark Philips and Jim Wofford, a jump weekend for levelI/II instructors at Brandenburg, and 2 days for level 3/4 candidates that Bobby Costello histed this winter. They have all been fascinating educational auditing opportunities!

wynn, as to fast tracking, I think some exposure to the process and feedback is important, no matter how competent the instructor is - I was really impressed when I read that Karen O and Eric H and all went through the process and evaluated each others teaching/ And watching Bobby Costello, Becky Holder, John Williams, Jon Holling,, et al teach short lessons and get feedback on what and how they chose to teach -well, that was way cool, and I suspect the process helped each of them be even better than they were going into the weekend.

ONE focus of the ICP seems to be developing a common vocabulary in insstructors - getting clarity in the sport about what Rhythm and tempo and inpulsion and speed really are. I *think* for level 3/4 ther is one prep weekend and one testing weekend? SUre, that is 4 days (?) which is a huge investment of time, but I'm not sure how it could be done for less time than that...

[sofiethewonderhorse]

My time to chime in...

I have hosted 4 ICP Workshops in the past year. The first began with the most experienced Trainers from the West Coast. They were irritated, skeptical, didn't want to do it, didn't see the value, thought they were above etc.

We had David O'C as instructor...each Instructor Candidate (IC) in that group held credentials that included 1. riding at the international level 2. Medaling at the Olympics 3. coaching riders who had ridden at the International Level and or Medaling in 3 Star and 4 Star events 4. Had been in the business for at least 20 years.

That was a Level III/IV Workshop (1-3 Day Workshop) which started at 8:00 am on Tuesday AM. We began the workshop with a gift bag of adult goodies ;) to help everyone through the process.

By noon on Tuesday, the ENTIRE group was engaged, very excited about the process and very much 'on-board' with ICP.

My 2nd workshop was another Level III/IV taught by Brian Sabo; not only did it take no time for all IC's to say 'wow'! and 'thanks': one of the IC's from the first Level III workshop brought several demo riders and horses.

We have recently completed a I/II series (2-3 day workshops held one month a part).

Again, some of the IC's came here not fully on board, today? everyone is fully on board.

I think that most of us, who fully embrace the ICP program, can agree that no system is perfect. But receiving such positive feedback from the trainers who are participating at their appropriate level is very, heartening.

If the program was punitive, not educational, 'b...t', pick one....

No one would come back.

As for cost? I can't think of another profession which doesn't have 'continuing education' as an expense. In fact, it was pretty nice as an organizer, to have several IC's ask for receipts for tax purposes.

ICP does not attempt to tell anyone how to teach, it does attempt to reflect back communication skills.

Thank you Sue H!

Kathryn

[tuppysmom]

Thank you Sofie for hosting these workshops. I know that they are an expensive undertaking and that you and your DH do it out of love for the sport of eventing.

I live in close proximity to two of those ICs. It did take some poking and proding to get them there, for sure. I heard all the excuses, "I don't have the time" "I can't be away from the farm any more days", "I just need to ride" , "I/we don't have the money", "will it make a difference in our business?, etc.

They both came away with a new level of excitment for learning and teaching. It has prompted the reading of all the mandatory reading list books by the younger one, which is very good. The older one is very familiar with the teachings in those books, but the younger one was not. So just for that, the reading of the teachers from before, it was well worth the time, and money.

[Snapdragon]

I was a rider, aka, guinea pig, in one of the development sessions for ICP, and then a rider in one of the first training sessions. After that training session, all of the participants were very enthusiatic and felt like they had learned a lot--and had a sense of comradarie with the riders and their fellow participants. It was very nice to see and be a part of.

One person I take lessons from is now an instructor in the program. She was really good before she participated in the program, but now, I have to say, she's an amazing instructor. It seems that even those who are at the very top levels of eventing gain a lot by going through the process.

I think the program is very worthwhile. Even those who have so been there, done that, seem to take something away that is valuable for themselves and their students.

Just my 2 cents.

[pwynnnorman]

wynn, as to fast tracking, I think some exposure to the process and feedback is important, no matter how competent the instructor is - I was really impressed when I read that Karen O and Eric H and all went through the process and evaluated each others teaching/ And watching Bobby Costello, Becky Holder, John Williams, Jon Holling,, et al teach short lessons and get feedback on what and how they chose to teach -well, that was way cool, and I suspect the process helped each of them be even better than they were going into the weekend.

ONE focus of the ICP seems to be developing a common vocabulary in insstructors - getting clarity in the sport about what Rhythm and tempo and inpulsion and speed really are. I *think* for level 3/4 ther is one prep weekend and one testing weekend? SUre, that is 4 days (?) which is a huge investment of time, but I'm not sure how it could be done for less time than that...

I can see how your first observation could be built in fairly easily, Jeannette, but the second one I have to disagree with because it goes against teaching tenets. It isn't the words that count and when you try to make them count, you get disagreeable reactions--such as the "it's my way or the highway" impression expressed on page one by someone (but not in those words). Moreover, VERBAL technque of teaching terms and using terms just are not effective at all. If you want someone to use a term, you can accomplish that by repeating it and its definition to them upteen times and hope it sinks in, or you can use the dictionaries and textbooks and other verbal/visual materials that academia has relied on for ever. This is with respect to terms, mind you, NOT with respect to "everything," OK?

Or you can try a Gregorian chant...:winkgrin:

[poltroon]

Bumping up, since ICP is a topic again.

I actually rather prefer that the various certification options stay separate. I've ridden with BHS certified trainers and with ICP certified trainers and I think the programs give them different backgrounds and different styles - not one better or worse, just different. BHS has its strong stable management component, which I like, but I don't really feel the need to duplicate that in ICP. ICP, I feel, is more eventing-specific, and perhaps more oriented towards teaching eventing as opposed to evaluating the candidate's riding skill and other horsemanship skills. I see the BHS program as a great way to educate young trainers, where ICP is more of a continuing education program for someone who already has students and significant teaching experience.