This "table thing"

[denny]

On another thread, an Austrian rider was killed last week, yet again over a table.
A few weeks ago I was sitting on one of the huge white tables at the Carolina Horse Park, waiting for a rider to finish xc, and a couple of people walked by.
One said to the other, "We ought to burn those things."
The next weekend, sure enough, they were on the course.
A show jumping friend of mine had an interesting insight. He said that a vertical faced jump should, theoretically, be jumped like a plank vertical, somewhat collected and "up", but that something 5-6 feet wide has to be ridden like a wide oxer, from a canter/gallop with more impulsion.
His theory about why tables are so lethal is that they are too vertical for their width, and invite being clobbered.
So if they are so dangerous, and if everyone knows that, why do xc designers seem to be so in love with them???

[LisaB]

I had asked this question a few month ago. I think Reed had it right, it's not the table, it's us when we take a tug when we shouldn't. It's basically that backwards riding that does it for us. That said, I think there should be some kind of ground line on tables which seems to be minimal or nonexistent nowadays. It creates a false ground line with the shadow.
But since our courses are twisty and turny and we tug tug tug, when we are faced with a large gallopy, yet square obstacle, we are not in that gallop mode anymore. You come up to a table, and depending on the placement and ground line, it can surprise a horse. They come up to the jump, think it's a wall, then OH! ooops, spread, take an extra 1/2 stride or so and don't make it.
It happened to me. The jumps were dinky then WHAM! 2 max tables set on a bending line. Our minds weren't in that mode to jump big and slightly technical. The entire flow of the course caused our minds not to jump that question right. I went flying and poor Winston was absolutely shocked and shaken that happened. That's what I see.
If you're going to have a table, have a good ground line. If you're going to question us by having that spread sneak up on us, give us a jump or 2 that are fly fences.

[c_expresso]

I agree with your friend. I have always been taught that since tables are so upright, you want to get close to the base, but at the same time they are wide so you want to be really forward. It is very hard to do properly and leaves little room for error; and less and less room for error as you move up the levels and tables become absolutely monstrous!

I think XC designers like tables because they are "simple" and "galloping" fences. They are supposed to be the let-up jumps, but they really are not. They are technical in their own unique way.

Why do we not see more brush fences on course as our galloping let up fences? When was the last time someone died over a brush fence? They are very forgiving and perfect to be jumped out of a gallop, because they are soft :D

Why not more log jumps too? Maybe they are not as "pretty" as a big table, but they are easy and simple and horses/riders tend to love them.

[LisaB]

Logs are hard to come by and hard to move around. Brush fences are a PITA to stuff.
But I agree c, I like logs and brush fences!

[c_expresso]

Logs are hard to come by

So are brilliant horses and riders that lose their lives at tables.

[Hilary]

First, tables are my worst kind of fence (maybe because I had a rotational fall at one, perhaps.. just a guess) If tables were eliminated, I would be the first in line with the matchbox and gasoline.

But I had to deal with my fear and now when I am galloping down to one, I replace it in my mind's eye with a square stadium oxer and it rides just fine. This is a far better solution than my old one which was to close my eyes, crouch on the neck and pray .

Show jumpers jump massive square oxers ,and they don't have wrecks at them do they? Or do they? I don't know where jumpers have their problesm. Is there a difference in the way we jump them on XC?

Having to figure out how to make them ride well consistently for me with my phobia really made me think about how I jump them, and why stadium oxers are my favorite kind of fence. Square or ascending, either is fine.

[Auburn]

I have a question.

What if you are presented with a galloping course, until you get to the last six fences. Within those six fences, there is a log in the shadow of a tree line, 50 yds. to a down bank, hard right turn and six strides to a square table, three strides to a water complex, 50 yds to a steeplechase fence (which is set at a 45 degree angle to the water complex and going downhill), to a sharp left hand turn for about 50 yds. to a max height ramp, which is at the BN level. How would you ride these? What are the questions that are being asked?

[flyingchange]

I agree about the groundlines. There was a decent sized table set about two-thirds of the way through the Prelim course at Southern Pines I. It was in the infield and came after the first water jump. It was set with a nice hefty log for a groundline at the base, with some shrubbery as well. When I walked the course and got to it, I have to admit that it worried me at first glance. But then looking at it and seeing how the groundline had been placed, I started to worry less. With the groundline of the log and shrubbery, you could approach it sort of like a triple bar instead of as a square oxer. Following it was another table - white with some shrubbery on top. Pretty big, but again with a good groundline that made sense.

Coming in the the latter 2/3 of the course, my horse was galloping well. It was after all the technical questions - the sunken road, coffin, and first water. as well as a bunch of nice rolltop-type smaller tables - so he and I were both feeling pretty confident. About 60 feet out from the first table, my horse basically "locked and loaded." He understood the question and made a nice jump right out of stride. Same thing for the white table - jumped that one HUGELY.

If we had gotten to those tables and he had not understood the questions in time and I had had to nurse him over them - that would have been scarey. Yes, you, the rider, need to ride every stride to the jump and not just drop them because you are nervous and want them to just get it done - that tends not to work so well when the fences get bigger. So while it does come down to riding your horse to the base of the jump, safely clearing the jump is also dependent on the horse having enough time to see and understand the jump, as well as jump placement on the course.

So I think it does fall on the CD to make sure that the tables are placed in a way that the horse has time to see, understand, and set up for them. To give the horse the best opportunity to see and understand these big spreads in enough time to adjust themselves and jump. I don't think they are the place for having to showjump in XC - save that for the uprights in the treelines, etc. Because as you said Denny, you do have to have some galloping momentum going to clear the spread, and how are you going to SJ a horse that is galloping at 520? Even if I could do that, I wouldn't want to - where's the fairness in making a horse both gallop correctly according to the level and achieve a SJ frame (and mindset) at the same time?

[LisaB]

It is mandatory in GP SJ to have the breakaway cups for all oxers because they do cause problems.
Auburn, sounds like they ran out of room or oops, we need to present these questions.

[SparklePlenty]

Auburn - my first thought was :eek: my second thought was the same as Lisa's, guess they realized they needed these at the last minute.

[Hannahsmom]

I don't mind tables per se, but I have had issues with placement of tables on course. And that needs to include not only the terrain, but light and dark that can change through a couple of sections of the same division. I would think course designers take lighting at the time of day into account, but I've had several cases where that didn't seem to be true.

I know, if I was out foxhunting, I'd have to 'deal with it', right? But I'm not out foxhunting, am I?:D

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Show jumpers jump massive square oxers ,and they don't have wrecks at them do they? Or do they? I don't know where jumpers have their problesm. Is there a difference in the way we jump them on XC?



Seen more then one good show jumper flip at oxers....also at tripple bars...but usually the fence falls before they rotate...but they do crash. That is why break-a-way cups were invented.

[Mustang51]

So, are tables a relatively new feature of xc courses?
Being of simple design, I sort of assumed that they had been part of course design for a long time.
But is that not true? Is the use or frequent use of tables a more recent (at least in the big picture - say 10-15 years) trend?

[bosox]

So are brilliant horses and riders that lose their lives at tables.


C--I love that you are right on most of the time and still young. When a young'n comes on here and posts gibberish--and people say, "Oh, they are young..." that doesn't fly w/me. You and Milo are quite mature and show wisdom for your age.

Auburn---I think the question they are asking over that BN course is "Do you feel lucky today!"

[lstevenson]

I think the vertical faces on spreads is a huge problem!

I posted this on the Fork thread when someone said that they thought the tables there were not overly vertical:

"But why do they need to be even as vertical as they are?

I also thought the tables were quite vertical, with little room for error if the horse got to a tight spot. Yes, the course was galloping and lovely, and rode well for almost everyone. But *IF* someone had buried their horse at one of those fairly vertical faced tables, we might have had another casualty.

I guess I just don't see the point of shaping them that way. If they are supposed to be galloping fences, they should be more sloping. Back in the 80's and 90's tables always had a generously sloping front. And we didn't seem to have any issues with horses flipping over them.

So why are they so vertical?

Just because we have square oxers in stadium? But in stadium horses are not traveling at 570 mpm (or much, much faster now that riders have to go so fast at the galloping jumps because of the constant technical questions).

Because the timber horses can run at speed to verticals? Look how many of them come down. Although because of their even faster speed the riders are usually thrown safely clear.

I just think there is no good REASON that they should be so vertical. And if it saves one life....."

[flyingchange]

lstevenson -

I agree with you completely.

Has anyone here had a chance to watch the Badminton course walk on the Badminton site? I have gotten as far as the Huntsmans' Close before my computer dies. What are people's thoughts on that jump series? Very big table in to the complex, then an EXTREMELY narrow brush corner that the horse does not see until the very last couple of strides. The CD comments on the video that successfully negotiating this corner comes down to training, blah, blah, blah. I dunno ... these kinds of fences really bother me. It reminds me of that stupid corner on the WEG Aachen course that so many horses had stops at. Sorry for the deviation from the OP. Guess this is a topic for another thread....

[Hilary]

Actually in the late 80s we had a big problem with tables. They were too square - the back end being the same height as the front and they DID cause problems with people being killed. I believe it was a young rider. Also we had fences called hay feeders which had the front rail in front of the ground line and were very wide at at the top - very bad idea.

A change was made to either place them in such a way that the horse could see that it was a wide fence, or put a back rail on them, to draw the eye back there. And hay feeders had to have a really bold ground line.

So - an example of a problem being recognized and fixed.

I do not remember quite the hue & cry, but it was prior to the internet and we had to wait for the magazine to arrive in the mail to find out about things. But even back in those dark ages, the powers that be in eventing solved a problem. However, I will say that it probably didn't happen overnight, and we at our keyboards tend to forget that change takes a little time to actually happen.

[BigRuss1996]

Tables with too much of a rampy front also cause their own set of problems because then horses sometimes leave too early and don't make it across. Ideally they should have a hefty groundline and the back of the table should be raised just slightly so the horse can see it and see there is some width....that would be more fair and cause less problems. They could even build them with a small step on the front side to break up the flat front.
Tables have been a part of cross country courses as long as I have been in the sport (since the early 80's) and probably before. There just use to be alot less of them and you never had two in a row as a combination. It was always one of the "big" fences out there...like the old huge oxers painted black, or the wagons. I don't necessarily dislike tables but I do have a healthy respect for them, and I do think their design could be improve on to make them safer.

[annikak]

I have been saying this over and over for years. On this BB as a matter of fact. I have heard others say that, too.

Yet, I guess it's like a lot of things in eventing- I am no one, and I have said it, yet someone who is someone says it and people listen. I am going to venture that this is part of the big problem.

Someone once said under their breath to me... "Ah...now they are going to listen...took 'em long enough." If you are No one, you don't have a voice- or if you are a quiet person, no one listens.

Glad its being talked about now.

[JER]

I have a question.

What if you are presented with a galloping course, until you get to the last six fences. Within those six fences, there is a log in the shadow of a tree line, 50 yds. to a down bank, hard right turn and six strides to a square table, three strides to a water complex, 50 yds to a steeplechase fence (which is set at a 45 degree angle to the water complex and going downhill), to a sharp left hand turn for about 50 yds. to a max height ramp, which is at the BN level. How would you ride these? What are the questions that are being asked?

The question is: WTF?

[Samantha37]

Show jumpers jump massive square oxers ,and they don't have wrecks at them do they? Or do they? I don't know where jumpers have their problesm. Is there a difference in the way we jump them on XC?

Having to figure out how to make them ride well consistently for me with my phobia really made me think about how I jump them, and why stadium oxers are my favorite kind of fence. Square or ascending, either is fine.

I think that the problem with XC tables is that they are solid... if a SJ takes out a massive square oxer, the jump falls... Besides, because the jumps fall, it wouldn't cause a rotational fall, the horse would just crash through it instead of flipping over it.

Frankly, tables scare the daylights out of me. I'll be right there with you Hilary with more gasoline :D

[JER]

Actually in the late 80s we had a big problem with tables. They were too square - the back end being the same height as the front and they DID cause problems with people being killed. I believe it was a young rider. Also we had fences called hay feeders which had the front rail in front of the ground line and were very wide at at the top - very bad idea.

A change was made to either place them in such a way that the horse could see that it was a wide fence, or put a back rail on them, to draw the eye back there. And hay feeders had to have a really bold ground line.

So - an example of a problem being recognized and fixed.


I remember this as well, although I thought it was in the 90s.

In the mid-late 90s, there'd usually be one table on a T course, usually quite rampy. No real tables at N. Then they started creeping back onto the courses, without the rampiness and in 3 or 4 stride combinations at N.

I never schooled tables. I'd do it at a competition but I never liked to take the chance otherwise.

As for showjumping, one of the recent Olympics has a good showcase of an oxer gone awry. I think it was Sydney, where Jeroen Dubbeldam won. In one of the rounds, there was a line that ended in a wide, square oxer that was set on a long one-stride. The distance was off and horse after horse swam/crashed through it, including many older, seasoned, famous showjumpers like Baloubet de Whatever and Rochet M. It was interesting -- and very sad -- to watch. Riders pulled up immediately and retired, knowing they'd just asked their horse to do too much. Baloubet continued on for a fence or two, then came to another oxer and totally quit. The impact of the oxer was ultimately more mental than physical -- a mistake did not result in a 30% chance of death or serious injury -- but it was a very good reminded that we have to be very careful when we test the far reaches of our horses' abilities.

[Auburn]

Denny,

I am sorry if I have hijacked this thread, but since the combo contains a square table....

So far, I have "is this your lucky day!", "WTF!" and other exclamatory remarks.

Can anyone please give me some suggestions as to how I ride these jumps? I believe that I can handle all of them, but the water complex to the steeplechase fence. Would this be a time where I would seek out the Rider Rep?

[Fence2Fence]

I have a question.

What if you are presented with a galloping course, until you get to the last six fences. Within those six fences, there is a log in the shadow of a tree line, 50 yds. to a down bank, hard right turn and six strides to a square table, three strides to a water complex, 50 yds to a steeplechase fence (which is set at a 45 degree angle to the water complex and going downhill), to a sharp left hand turn for about 50 yds. to a max height ramp, which is at the BN level. How would you ride these? What are the questions that are being asked?

Is this the spring bay course? I'm going out this afternoon to walk it...

[Hilary]

Auburn - my suggestion would be to trot.

That way you are going slowly enough that you and your horse can fully process what sounds like a messy group of fences that come up fast. Also, should your horse or you be tired, it's a change of gait which relieves the tired cantering muscles.

At BN, the fences are all small enough to navigate from a trot, or even a walk.


The reason I think the table problem started in the late 80s was I heard about the YR fatality during my H-A rating which was in 1987.

I did not event from 1990-1996, so there may have been more problems then.

[Auburn]

Hilary,

Thank you for the suggestion. Trotting a steeplechase fence that is shared with Novice is a bit daunting, but I will give it a shot.

[subk]

So if they are so dangerous, and if everyone knows that, why do xc designers seem to be so in love with them???

I think XC designers like tables because they are "simple" and "galloping" fences. They are supposed to be the let-up jumps, but they really are not. They are technical in their own unique way.
What's so interesting about tables is that I bet if you went and looked at the records they don't rack up very many jumping penalties. Horses don't stop at them; if they have a problem they crash at them.

I think Reed had it right, it's not the table, it's us when we take a tug when we shouldn't. It's basically that backwards riding that does it for us.
Yes, yes and YES! And I think the more technical the rest of the course the more likely a riders is to ride backward.

[SparklePlenty]

Auburn-
I would have to see the course.. but i agree at BN you can def. trot any of those fences. Just make sure it's a going forward trot.. not a "backwards" trot. You'll need impulsion.. plus from the steeplechase fence plan to turn while your landing so that both you and the horse are ready for the hard turn. Then to the max fence sit up and ride forward.. but not to flat or fast.

You'll be fine.. :) good luck!

[BreckGirlKY]

I'm pretty sure Auburn is referring to the Spring Bay course, at least by the looks of my map. I'm entered in the BN test as well, and had I know half of the jumps were shared with the novice course I just would have entered in Novice. :eek:

[pwynnnorman]

I haven't read all the responses yet, but I have to just jump in real quick and ask this: "What happened to the gates?"

Each year at Badminton (or is it Burghley?) someone capsizes over that upright gate that is always in the woods (Huntsman's Close, I think it is called). One year, Pippa Funnell fell over it on BOTH of her horses.

Those flimsy, straight up gaits are almost unheard of over here.

So that shows that some types of jumps have been almost entirely eliminated on course. Has that been intentional? If so, couldn't that be the treatment for tables? Or at least can't they put enough flowers and brush in front that the horse will always get at least his front end clear of the top leading edge?

[Hilary]

OK, should we really eliminate all tables?

Because we've already discussed wanting to eliminate too many skinny things, too many combinations, fences in a fenceline, and flimsy vertical gates.

What are we going to jump? I can make a lot of arguments against stone walls too - had a horse whack a knee and do a lot of damage on a rock.

I can't believe I'm advocating for tables here folks, but they have been a part of XC courses since the year dot, and while accidents do happen there, it seems to be because of poor table design and POOR RIDING. They are easy to ride badly because we take them for granted and they aren't easy and you can't take them for granted.

Since my problem at a table (which had to do with the table moving, and catching the horse in the belly causing her to flip), I have learned to ride them well because I was so petrified of them. They give me the willies, but they always ride well for me.

[JER]

I haven't read all the responses yet, but I have to just jump in real quick and ask this: "What happened to the gates?"

Each year at Badminton (or is it Burghley?) someone capsizes over that upright gate that is always in the woods (Huntsman's Close, I think it is called). One year, Pippa Funnell fell over it on BOTH of her horses.

Those flimsy, straight up gaits are almost unheard of over here.

So that shows that some types of jumps have been almost entirely eliminated on course. Has that been intentional? If so, couldn't that be the treatment for tables? Or at least can't they put enough flowers and brush in front that the horse will always get at least his front end clear of the top leading edge?

The gates in Huntsman's Close are still there, only with much improved groundlines. I think there's a line of big rocks in front of one of them as well.

At Huntsman's Close, you had the vertical gate question plus the light/dark question at the same obstacle. A little unfair to the horse.

[pwynnnorman]

JER, can you think of other courses that use that kind of straight upright gate (regardless of placement)? Am I right that, although that is a common obstacle in the real world of cross country, it not common in the sport? Did that/those gates not cause severe injury because, unlike tables, they are so flimsy that they collapse?

[JER]

JER, can you think of other courses that use that kind of straight upright gate (regardless of placement)? Am I right that, although that is a common obstacle in the real world of cross country, it not common in the sport? Did that/those gates not cause severe injury because, unlike tables, they are so flimsy that they collapse?

You don't see them much on XC or anywhere. They still have them in the Hickstead Derby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hPCqUppY40&feature=related) but the Hickstead Derby is a very different kettle of fish. At Hickstead, the gates do come down if hit.

I'd say that the upright gate is not a popular fence anywhere. Coops are much preferred for hunting although the people up front will take a five-bar gate when absolutely necessary. There's just no room for error; it's too easy for the horse to tip over.

[Jazzy Lady]

I've been saying that the square tables are a problem in pretty much every thread that talks about safety. I hate them. I despise them actually. I don't see why it is so hard to make the back of the fence higher than the front and put a solid groundline on it. Not so difficult. Or make it a bit of a rounded table (think the big flat rounder tables at the fork on the A and *** courses.)

I also really hate hay racks. My horse always jumps them like shit, and one time there was so much hay on it he misjudged the fence, banked it and almost rotated because he caught his hoof on the lip that holds the hay on top... ummm... hello?? Why are we putting lips on cross country fences???

[grayarabpony]

Sorry if somebody said this already but design the table so the horse can bank it if need be. Although it's true that the horse needs to be clever and aware enough to do this -- if he's really tired or allergic to touching jumps this would not help...

[clovis]

On another thread, an Austrian rider was killed last week, yet again over a table.
A few weeks ago I was sitting on one of the huge white tables at the Carolina Horse Park, waiting for a rider to finish xc, and a couple of people walked by.
One said to the other, "We ought to burn those things."
The next weekend, sure enough, they were on the course.
A show jumping friend of mine had an interesting insight. He said that a vertical faced jump should, theoretically, be jumped like a plank vertical, somewhat collected and "up", but that something 5-6 feet wide has to be ridden like a wide oxer, from a canter/gallop with more impulsion.
His theory about why tables are so lethal is that they are too vertical for their width, and invite being clobbered.
So if they are so dangerous, and if everyone knows that, why do xc designers seem to be so in love with them???


Denny - Did you end up watching the tables in question here in competition? Would you say they were appropriate to the course or not? I was not there, but had friends competing, and didn't hear any negative reports. I was just wondering if you saw horses jumping them dengerously.

[Janet]

Show jumpers jump massive square oxers ,and they don't have wrecks at them do they? Or do they? I don't know where jumpers have their problesm. Is there a difference in the way we jump them on XC? They used to - before safety cups.

[Janet]

Way back when I remember jumping an actual picnic table.

[JER]

Re: upright gates and frangible pins

pwynn, I thought I'd seen this somewhere and I found the document.

If you go here -- http://www.aod.org.uk/docs/frangible.pdf -- and scroll to the bottom of page 1, you'll see an upright gate (a skinny upright gate) and a discussion of how the pin would be used.

[Hony]

They used to - before safety cups.

They still do. I saw one happen at The Royal last winter. It seems to me that jumper
falls get swept under the rug a lot faster than XC falls.

[c_expresso]

They still do. I saw one happen at The Royal last winter. It seems to me that jumper
falls get swept under the rug a lot faster than XC falls.

Probably because they are not as dangerous; more often than not the horses are OK due to the fences being more forgiving.

[TB or not TB?]

What if we had a streak of yellow paint on the far edge of the top? Just to say "Hey Horses, look at me! I'm wide!"

Also, IIRC, tables must ascend at least 3"... Janet??

What if we changed that to 6"?

[annikak]

I've been saying that the square tables are a problem in pretty much every thread that talks about safety. I hate them. I despise them actually. I don't see why it is so hard to make the back of the fence higher than the front and put a solid groundline on it. Not so difficult. Or make it a bit of a rounded table (think the big flat rounder tables at the fork on the A and *** courses.)

I also really hate hay racks. My horse always jumps them like shit, and one time there was so much hay on it he misjudged the fence, banked it and almost rotated because he caught his hoof on the lip that holds the hay on top... ummm... hello?? Why are we putting lips on cross country fences???

Yeah, Jazzy- we have always agreed on this- hate them- for a good reason! Hay Racks, too. We should school sometime!:D

What I understand is this- a long long time ago- things were not built as well as they are now. I am not sure who said this, but someone said that a "give" of 2" prevented a flip from occuring. I am not in any way a builder, but it makes sense to me.

My mantra continues. We KNOW tables kill people. Something we can do something about RIGHT now- no studies, no huge big thing- costs nothing to do except to build a more jumpable something. WHY aren't we doing it? All this talk- but I fear it's all talk and no action. Same old, Same old.

And yes, they jump well! I know- love the feeling of getting over them. you do feel like you are flying. But- the cost may be too high. How many flips/deaths/injuries is too many? I think that is the question.

I think they can be made friendlier. And I do not advocate taking everything tough away from XC- just things that we can prove are not doing the sport any good. I like skinnies- options are good if one desires- and big gallopy fences. I like coffins- yes, (shudder) even at Training and the occasional 1/2 at Novice. A good corner? Yup- good. But...tables..brrrrrrrr.

[JER]

What if we had a streak of yellow paint on the far edge of the top? Just to say "Hey Horses, look at me! I'm wide!"


This might make it worse for the horses.

Horse and humans don't see things the same way. Tests (by fencing companies, among others) have shown that moving horses see 'natural' colors like brown and green easiest/earliest. They see white or light colors last. In other words, white/light colors tend to surprise the horse as they get closer.

There's a bit about her work here (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horsecare/1370/33911.html). The Horse magazine (UK) ran an interesting photo spread showing XC fences as seen by the horse. I've posted on the BB about Dr. Harman before, you could do a search; her contact details are posted here (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/73000367/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0).

I believe the fencing company that did the color studies was HorseGuard (http://www.horseguard.net/). For the vision reason, they try to dissuade customers from buying white fencing.

Again, we need more research. Actual science and data. Not just guessing games with power tools and paint pots. :)

[TB or not TB?]

This might make it worse for the horses.

Horse and humans don't see things the same way. Tests (by fencing companies, among others) have shown that moving horses see 'natural' colors like brown and green easiest/earliest. They see white or light colors last. In other words, white/light colors tend to surprise the horse as they get closer.


Ah how science has changed. In PC, we were always taught that horses saw yellow and black the best, hence my suggestion. It's funny how we keep progressing. :yes:

[foursocks]

I'm a jumper rider and the worst riding injury I've had was a broken collarbone due to my horse catching a toe on a ramped triple log jump out on a XC course we were schooling for fun. He fell on his face and I fell on my collarbone and snapped it.

You can hurt yourself riding over the big jumper fences, for sure, but they come down and those falls don't tend to be rotational- just stumbles or crashes or whatever. At any rate, I'll stick to my nice, groomed ring and non-solid jumps :lol: But I do hope your sport can figure all of this out because I find it really sad that you guys, who I have always admired for your guts and the fun you seem to have, are dealing with these issues.

[Mac123]

I'm another jumper rider weighing in on this issue. Two things:

I see a lot more refusals in the jumpers than I do when watching eventing. Now, my exposure to eventing is minimal, so I could be way off. But when you see showjumpers headed for a maxed out 5'3 by 6' oxer and the horse is ridden to a poor or impossible distance, many of them simply say, "Boss, are ya crazy? No way!" Many eventers I've seen take off from impossible distances. They tend to have more dedication to just getting over the dang thing and are more brave. Also, since the oxers are a good foot bigger in SJ, the horse is more liable to stop as he realizes the impossibility. Jumpers really care about their distances. You see many of the super careful ones getting unnerved from a scary effort and you have to build their confidence back up (as someone noticed with Baloubet de Rouet, sometimes it's mentally just too much). CC horses are more accustomed to getting all sorts of distances and may not make the same decisions that a jumper does as far as whether it is better to stop.

Secondly, a lot of it comes down to the safety design of the fences. We have poles that snap and cups that break with the barest hint of trouble. Not to say that there aren't bad falls, but for example, Beezie Madden's horse swam through a huge oxer at WC 2007 right in front of me, and both walked away 100% fine. If that were a cross country fence, they both would have been seriously injured.

SJ fences allow the horse and rider to continue the forward motion. If they hook a leg or come down too early or chest it, they keep going forward. They may fall or trip or stumble, but they don't come to a sudden stop like they would if hitting a solid fence.

Hence the reason I won't jump any cc fences big enough to scare me...which means about 3 feet!

[subk]

But when you see showjumpers headed for a maxed out 5'3 by 6' oxer and the horse is ridden to a poor or impossible distance, many of them simply say, "Boss, are ya crazy? No way!" Many eventers I've seen take off from impossible distances. They tend to have more dedication to just getting over the dang thing and are more brave. Also, since the oxers are a good foot bigger in SJ, the horse is more liable to stop as he realizes the impossibility. Jumpers really care about their distances.
Eventers do care about distances, but more importantly they care about balance. Think about it a second, the only difference in a "chip" compared to galloping "to the base of the fence" is the balance. The take off spot is the same for both, but one is ugly and the other can be quite powerful and effective. Maybe one of the reasons for the difference is that so much of everything you jump is a related distance which is not true for us. If our horses thought that every one of the "impossible distances" they take was going to result in the next fence being much more difficult, they'd punch the time clock more often too.

I know you said it, but there is such a difference between 5'3" and 3'11" that comparing the two is tough.

[denny]

Since it seems a known fact that tables cause bad falls, why can`t organizers simply stop using them?
Just like it`s a known fact that when your horse is galloping flat and fast at a solid obstacle, and you/he misses the distance, the physics of trajectory is not in your favor.
But the speeds today are EXACTLY the same as at my first event in 1962, when the xc courses were much more flowing.
Some things seem such easy and obvious fixes that it boggles my mind that they stay the same.

[McVillesMom]

There is a set of tables (at least one for each level, BN-P) at the KHP that they use at nearly every event. Most horses jump them poorly. Why? An Advanced level rider gave me 2 reasons: first, they are all one color - flat dark brown. Horses can't see the front top edge of them, so they see them as rolltops. Second, they are often situated so they are NOT ascending - more than once I have seen them placed so the back edge is not significantly higher than the front edge. Again, we come down to course designers knowing what they're doing when they ask these questions.

[JER]

Since it seems a known fact that tables cause bad falls, why can`t organizers simply stop using them?

Getting rid of tables would do nothing to change the actual sport EXCEPT make it safer.

Does anyone here think tables are essential to our sport? If so, why? What do tables test that wouldn't be tested otherwise?

[BigRuss1996]

Good point...and actually they could use roll tops instead and it would essentially be the same type of question just friendlier for the horse...



Getting rid of tables would do nothing to change the actual sport EXCEPT make it safer.

Does anyone here thinks tables are essential to our sport? If so, why? What do tables test that wouldn't be tested otherwise?

[RunForIt]

originally posted by annikak:
My mantra continues. We KNOW tables kill people. Something we can do something about RIGHT now- no studies, no huge big thing- costs nothing to do except to build a more jumpable something. WHY aren't we doing it? All this talk- but I fear it's all talk and no action. Same old, Same old.

And yes, they jump well! I know- love the feeling of getting over them. you do feel like you are flying. But- the cost may be too high. How many flips/deaths/injuries is too many? I think that is the question.

I think they can be made friendlier. And I do not advocate taking everything tough away from XC- just things that we can prove are not doing the sport any good. I like skinnies- options are good if one desires- and big gallopy fences. I like coffins- yes, (shudder) even at Training and the occasional 1/2 at Novice. A good corner? Yup- good. But...tables..brrrrrrrr.

seems obvious what to do on the side of intelligence: eliminate tables. Lots more stuff out there safer to jump for the horse and rider. Common sense, eh? But then, that old saying may be true - common sense isn't all that common.

[Dr. Doolittle]

Argh, I've reading all the posts here, and agreeing (silently) with everyone...:yes:

The *only* jump that my present (very brave and very athletic) event horse has jumped *badly* X-country was a table; thanks to her catlike reflexes, she managed to get the "left behind shoulder" up and over the thing, and land safely--though she unseated me enough during her efforts (had to twist to one side) that I came off, injuring my shoulder--which has taken two years to completely heal. I am convinced that it was a "visual confusion thing", since she is very, very careful by nature...I have been methodically schooling her over square oxers at home, and have faced a few tables in competitions since then (as another poster said, I won't school them), and she has been very good over them--but the ride MUST be perfect! Sheesh!! No pressure, right?? :p

Anyway, Denny, I love you! :) Thanks tremendously for this thread, and let's hope and pray that "the powers that be" wise up and DO something about this--before yet more people (and horses) come to grief! :(

There are SO many other "jump shapes/types" that are challenging, but *statistically* less likely to be lethal...

[ideayoda]

Is the problem the fences? Or with the methodology of how horses are taught to jump cross country vs stadium in today's world? And the way the riders ride the fences (and/or in between them). TImes certainly have changed as to seat/approach/contact in the last 40-50 years. Discussion?

[denny]

Ideayoda, it doesn`t matter at this point. Eventing can only take just so much before other people decide to try to pull the plug on this sport.
Waiting around in a do nothing mode is about as unproductive as anything I can imagine.

[flyingchange]

What about an experiment:

Take all square tables out of XC for, say, 12 to 24 months, at ALL levels. See if there is any difference in major accidents during that time frame compared to the past couple of years.

[Kanga]

Got a good table story for everyone that has just happened.

Just went out to Spring Bay Horse Trials(Lexington, Kentucky) to walk the Training/Preliminary.

This is how it went. Start box to a 90 degree turn staight down hill to a table on both the courses. FIRST FENCE.

Please someone out there tell me the POINT of this. I believe Mary Fike has designed this course and in the 8 years I have lived here have never seen her ride a horse. People I know that have been here many more years than myself have never even seen her ride.

Why the hell is someone like this designing courses??????

[RunForIt]

Got a good table story for everyone that has just happened.

Just went out to Spring Bay Horse Trials(Lexington, Kentucky) to walk the Training/Preliminary.

This is how it went. Start box to a 90 degree turn staight down hill to a table on both the courses. FIRST FENCE.

Please someone out there tell me the POINT of this. I believe Mary Fike has designed this course and in the 8 years I have lived here have never seen her ride a horse. People I know that have been here many more years than myself have never even seen her ride.

Why the hell is someone like this designing courses??????

oh damn, my little mare is doing her first Training this year, 2nd one ever. FC, PLEASE PM me quick tomorrow - no telling when Jenn will get home!

[Gnep]

what is the reason, bring them out big and wake them up, I like that, its far better than give small jumps and than hammer them with the real stuff.

Geting rid of tables is not the solution, they would just be replaced by a nother spread and than that spread would become the danger.

Oxers used to be the bad guy, thats why we go the pin. Oxer are basicly replaced by tables as spreads.

We need to change the way they are built, they have to give, collaps in a controlled manner when a horse impacts or lands on them. There is a few guys that at the prescent are cooking their brains to do that.

I have watch basicly every video that I could find on the net, that shows crashes, and every single video shows that the rider unbalances his horse at the final strides, or especialy after drops has far to long rains, horse strung out and rider in a chair seat. it is rather predictable.

[BarbB]

We need to change the way they are built, they have to give, collaps in a controlled manner when a horse impacts or lands on them. There is a few guys that at the prescent are cooking their brains to do that.


I thought they built them sturdy for the horse that banks one. :confused:



I think a slight change in design would help. Slight slope to the front with a good ground line, backside slightly higher than the front so the horse gets a good look at the width. Used only where there is room for the horse to get a good look before they jump.

Somebody already posted all this earlier....I concur.

[pwynnnorman]

Since it seems a known fact that tables cause bad falls, why can`t organizers simply stop using them?
Just like it`s a known fact that when your horse is galloping flat and fast at a solid obstacle, and you/he misses the distance, the physics of trajectory is not in your favor.
But the speeds today are EXACTLY the same as at my first event in 1962, when the xc courses were much more flowing.
Some things seem such easy and obvious fixes that it boggles my mind that they stay the same.

Yeah, that's what I meant in bringing up gates.

[NeverTime]

Originally Posted by Mac123 http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3140204#post3140204)
But when you see showjumpers headed for a maxed out 5'3 by 6' oxer and the horse is ridden to a poor or impossible distance, many of them simply say, "Boss, are ya crazy? No way!" Many eventers I've seen take off from impossible distances. They tend to have more dedication to just getting over the dang thing and are more brave. Also, since the oxers are a good foot bigger in SJ, the horse is more liable to stop as he realizes the impossibility. Jumpers really care about their distances.

Eventers do care about distances, but more importantly they care about balance. Think about it a second, the only difference in a "chip" compared to galloping "to the base of the fence" is the balance. The take off spot is the same for both, but one is ugly and the other can be quite powerful and effective. Maybe one of the reasons for the difference is that so much of everything you jump is a related distance which is not true for us. If our horses thought that every one of the "impossible distances" they take was going to result in the next fence being much more difficult, they'd punch the time clock more often too.

I know you said it, but there is such a difference between 5'3" and 3'11" that comparing the two is tough.

I dunno. I tend to agree with Mac123. In theory, sure, we *all* care about distances or riding the rhythm. But I've watched far too much (bad, scary, reckless) cross-country riding to disagree w/Mac.

And out XC, the horses do have to be very forward-thinking, especially when the jumps get enormous. At the UL especially, they have to be brave with a ton of heart, which means they are more likely to say "go" than "no." Jimmy Wofford is fond of saying something to the effect of "Your horse should jump not because of what you do, but despite of what do," meaning they need to be brave, and (in Mac's words) "dedicated to getting across the dang thing" or, if you prefer, (in the immortal words of Tim Gunn) "make it work." I don't think I've ever heard a jumper trainer say anything akin to the "because/despite of" line.

But it has to do with skill, too. At the lower levels of either jumpers or eventing, you are far more likely to see people running too flat, running through distances, not helping the horse and jumping from whatever distance comes up, in a one-, two- or three-legged cringe-inducing effort. Hopefully, as you go up through the levels and the experience of the riders increases, the people who are jumping the maxed-out efforts, whether a 6' SJ fence or a 3'11" table with a huge spread ALL care about getting their horses there right and those moments are less frequent. But, I agree with Mac, even then, the eventer is probably more likely than the jumper to give it a try from an impossible distance.

That's why it's so important that we gotta be up there in the pilot's seat helping them get to the right distance in the right balance, so we don't hurt that confidence or abuse the bravery of our wonderful, forward-thinking partners.

As for the OP, I had a big wreck at a table a few years ago -- and I am SO thankful it was a table instead of an open oxer. To the point above, on a day I should've retired earlier b/c the communication wasn't there, we got to an intermediate table on a half-stride and he chipped (trying to make it work) and tried to helicopter over it but couldn't make the spread that way, so came down on the back side of it. We didn't flip but rolled, sliding across the top and rotating in a rolling fashion, me getting thrown clear while he landed on his side, rolled completely over, got up and ran away (thankfully unharmed).

Lessons learned from that: (1) call it a day when things aren't right, don't keep going and abuse that willingness or put him/us at risk, and (2) thank my lucky stars that was a table instead of an open oxer where his front legs would've dropped between the front and back rails rather than sliding over. We would've flipped and he could've broken a leg/legs or either/both of us could have died.

In every other situation, though, I find the tables are actually an inviting fence -- a big oxer that the horse can see easily and encourages him to balance and take in stride. Now, bounces, those are farrrrrr more frightening! :cool:

[Mac123]

Good points, NeverTime.

Subk, I wasn't meaning that eventers didn't care about distances at all by any means, but just facing the facts here, eventers ride a lot more out of stride. I've seen a lot of CC fences ridden from either chips or super long ones and this doesn't break their rythmn--they just keep on going.

In one sense, this is a very good thing. Here in American Hunter-jumper land, we have our Distance-Queens who would prefer to dismount, get on hands and knees, measure the exact takeoff point, and mark it with a big, red X. Preferrably, they would also show the horse each take-off point prior to starting to course. :lol: Our obesession with distances isn't necessarily a good thing, but it has led to inherently safer decisions on the part of horses and riders. On the other hand, many of us are oncapable of jumping out of stride. When I talk to people about riding the rythymn and not worrying about that ONE spot, they look at me like I've got two heads!

The point is that the bravery and courage and the fact that horses are expected (right or wrong) to get over the fence come hell and high water I think leads to the fact that many horses try to get over a fence when they would be wiser to stop. I've watched some of the best SJ riders in the world have a miscommunication or have a line not work right and end up with a refusal because the horse knows that attempting from that distance would not be a good idea.

Go to this Youtube video, it's a good example of what I mean. This is one of the better medal riders, but she galloped down to absolutely no distance and the horse just said no way. The horse was able to stop, but if this had been solid, it wouldn't have been pretty. It happens about 50 seconds in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YVdH48c0mg


It seems that many of these rotational falls are precluded by a chip. I don't think there's necessarily anything about this observation that will help you guys, because you still need that forwardness and dedication, but I think it's a vaild observation as far as why H/Jers have less serious falls than eventers. I think a component of this may be speed--if you all are needing to jump tables at speed, there may not be time for a horse to stop.

Also, here's a video of Beezie's fall at the World Cup. I was right there in the second row alongside the rail. This is the difference between jumps that come down and jumps that don't. This is the reason why H/Jers can have ten or twenty falls like this and not die. Everything breaks, everything collapses down. A valient effort on the part of the horse that just didn't work out.....but both walked away completely unharmed (actually, Authentic proceeded to jump two more fences by himself before they could catch him!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rafACIUBkvU

[Janet]

I think a slight change in design would help. Slight slope to the front with a good ground line, backside slightly higher than the front so the horse gets a good look at the width..
That is already in the guidelines.

[retreadeventer]

[QUOTE=Gnep;3140444
I have watch basicly every video that I could find on the net, that shows crashes, and every single video shows that the rider unbalances his horse at the final strides, or especialy after drops has far to long rains, horse strung out and rider in a chair seat. it is rather predictable.[/QUOTE]

Gnep can you expand on this a little. When you say the rider unbalances the horse, is it - behind the motion - jumping ahead - messing with the horse's mouth -- getting left -- doing nothing -- I am talking about BEFORE the regular type of jumps, not the drops. Just wondering what you observed.

Have you seen the two studies from England - the pdf files?
A retrospective case-control study of horse falls in the sport
of horse trials and three-day eventing
E. R. SINGER*, F. SAXBY and N. P. FRENCH†
Division of Equine Studies, †Epidemiology Group, Veterinary Clinical Science and Animal Husbandry, University of Liverpool, Leahurst,
Chester High Road, Neston, South Wirral CH64 7TE, UK.
and
The risk of a horse-and-rider partnership falling on the crosscountry
phase of eventing competitions
J. K. MURRAY*, E. R. SINGER†, K. L. MORGAN, C. J. PROUDMAN† and N. P. FRENCH
Epidemiology Group, Faculty of Veterinary Science, and †Division of Equine Studies, Department of Veterinary Clinical Science and Animal
Husbandry, University of Liverpool, Leahurst, Chester High Road, Neston, South Wirral CH64 7TE, UK.

[McVillesMom]

Got a good table story for everyone that has just happened.

Just went out to Spring Bay Horse Trials(Lexington, Kentucky) to walk the Training/Preliminary.

This is how it went. Start box to a 90 degree turn staight down hill to a table on both the courses. FIRST FENCE.

Please someone out there tell me the POINT of this. I believe Mary Fike has designed this course and in the 8 years I have lived here have never seen her ride a horse. People I know that have been here many more years than myself have never even seen her ride.

Why the hell is someone like this designing courses??????

Agree with you...I've seen too many courses at KHP and Spring Bay that ask inappropriate questions for the level. We really need to figure out a way to police these course designers and make them actually work within the guidelines published in the rule book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbB http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3140454#post3140454)
I think a slight change in design would help. Slight slope to the front with a good ground line, backside slightly higher than the front so the horse gets a good look at the width..

That is already in the guidelines.The guidelines don't mean diddly if no one is ENFORCING them.

[ThirdCharm]

Guidelines, not rules. I asked a organizer about something on a novice SJ course once which was questionable.... and was told "Well, yeah, that's listed as inappropriate in the guidelines, but it's not against the RULES".

As for tables, I don't think getting rid of tables is necessarily the solution (personally I LOVE tables), but better design (big groundline, sloping face, VERY visible back edge). The question asked by a vertical-faced table is "Do you know how to balance your horse into a canter/gallop adjustable enough to find a distance that is not so short as to cause the front legs to hit the front edge, but not so long as to make it impossible for the horse to clear the jump. Or, if you don't, or you screw up, does your horse know how to save you." Alas, the answer is no far too often (really, how often does a horse simply STOP in front of a big huge table? So what other effect is the CD looking for? It's either jump clean or possibly flip!), and when the answer is no and the possible result is death, the question is better asked in another fashion. Big square oxers in stadium with really vertical faces and no groundlines, for instance.

Jennifer

[McVillesMom]

True, ThirdCharm. Maybe we need to make them more than guidelines...

[RunForIt]

Jennifer,

I'm glad that you explained the question asked by tables as you did - makes it seem quite doable ...but, here's the big question, perhaps the big question for the whole sport of eventing...can't there be questions so that if you answer wrong, you and/or your horse don't have a big chance of injury? or worse? Can't we have sport without so much risk? Maybe not.

Lynda

[Gnep]

Retreadeventer,
Every single time the rider unbalanced the horse, messed it up at the las strides, through seat or hands.
You can keep a balance by using seat and hands even in a rough manner, you see it very often in stadium, but it only works if it is consistend and the horse can adjust its balance according to it, might be ugly. All the videos I have watched, must be far over a hundred now, the rider changes the balance of the horse during the last strides, horse can not cope with it and than the shit hits the fan. We have all done it and had rather ugly jumps.
The second most common mistake, is trying to run the horse towards the jump, on skinnies the horse runs out, on wide jumps they slam into the jump, even if they jump the flight curve is to shallow, those are the worst rotanials to watch, very violent, interestingly the rotationals were the rider gets badly hit by the horse are rather slow speed, the horse basicly clongs the jump and rolls over it.

If you have a rather good stomach, or some serious liquor around, it is rather interesting to watch how they happen and what their dynamics are.

BarB, it is not enough that you just go and angle the front. They have to be sturdy no question, nothing would be worth to have several 100 pounds fly around, but as with the pin if you have a controlled collaps you can make them save.
If you study stadium jumping and see how the poles fly when it gets realy bad and how they endanger horse and rider, than you understand.

Thats why X-C jumps that weight several hundreds of pounds have to collaps in a very controled manner, or they would probably become more dangerous.

The largest problem is to find a solution that is:

Affordable no more than 20% added cost = 80 to 100 dolla gringo ( time and material )

Does not need huge extra skills

Can be built under field conditions ( not everybody has a shop, actually very few )

Rebuilding the jump has to be easy and fast, minutes

Jump can not fall apart just because a horse scratches over it.

[ThirdCharm]

Exactly, why not ask that particular question in stadium? A couple of front rails down on square oxers can really hurt your placings, without risking anyone getting killed. It's not like there are not PLENTY of other times in xc when you have to demonstrate the ability to rebalance and adjust your horse and find a takeoff (coffins, skinnies, combinations, etc. etc). Tables are supposed to be impressive but really fairly easy breather fences, instead they are getting people killed asking a question that if answered incorrectly doesn't cause a stop but causes a flip.

Jennifer

[subk]

Retreadeventer,
All the videos I have watched, must be far over a hundred now, the rider changes the balance of the horse during the last strides, horse can not cope with it and than the shit hits the fan.
Doesn't surprise me. When I realized that the horse looses sight of the fence a couple strides out and has to make any further adjustments in his memory instead of making an actual visual assessment it went a long way to making me a quieter rider the last couple strides out!

[Hony]

Probably because they are not as dangerous; more often than not the horses are OK due to the fences being more forgiving.

I think people would like us to believe that. The horse I saw was put down due to a broken shoulder. The rider was okay. As I said, I think it is just pushed under the rug.

[NeverTime]

Jennifer,

can't there be questions so that if you answer wrong, you and/or your horse don't have a big chance of injury? or worse? Can't we have sport without so much risk? Maybe not.

Lynda

Of course we can, and we do. They are called skinnies and chevrons, and mushrooms and turtles and ... and whatever else a small piece of wood can be carved to resemble -- and they are the things that people complain about on the other half of the threads, under "Why have courses gotten so technical?"
Of course, horses stil can flip over those (Darren's fall, for example), but many more problems at those types of fences are refusals, not falls. But riders at all levels of the sport seem to agree that stringing together a bunch of smaller, technical questions isn't what cross-country is about.

[subk]

Good points, NeverTime.

Subk, I wasn't meaning that eventers didn't care about distances at all by any means, but just facing the facts here, eventers ride a lot more out of stride. I've seen a lot of CC fences ridden from either chips or super long ones and this doesn't break their rhythm--they just keep on going.
Actually, I don't think there's much we disagree on. My only point is that maybe one of the reasons eventers are more bold is because when they take a less than perfect XC distance they aren't immediately confronted with consequences a few strides later. i.e. landing deep or short into a line and being confronted with a big correction to be able to make the next fence. The majority of our XC fences are still single unrelated distances.

In some ways your utube videos exactly makes my point that the two different disciplines emphasis balance and the distance a little differently. You described the videos and seem to look at them first and foremost as "missing a distance." I look at it (especially the first) and my very first gut reaction is to seeing the balance falling apart 3-4 strides out, THEN missing the distance as a result. It's a balance problem to me not a distance problem. But your right, it's not that we don't care about distances we just think about them in other terms.

[BigRuss1996]

Yes...horses are blind to anything 5 feet and closer that is directly in front of them. Groundlines help alot with that as they can see down at close range.


Doesn't surprise me. When I realized that the horse looses sight of the fence a couple strides out and has to make any further adjustments in his memory instead of making an actual visual assessment it went a long way to making me a quieter rider the last couple strides out!

[ideayoda]

If that medal rider is now considered one of the better, god help us. That refusal was coming so far back, the horse not in front of the rider, and the lack of round bascule missing. Clever in front? Perhaps, but partly because of the hollow back.

This returns to the question: how are people being trained to approach a fence? What happen to the stellar american caprilli (italian) seat, especially cross country?

[Mac123]

Actually, I don't think there's much we disagree on. My only point is that maybe one of the reasons eventers are more bold is because when they take a less than perfect XC distance they aren't immediately confronted with consequences a few strides later. i.e. landing deep or short into a line and being confronted with a big correction to be able to make the next fence. The majority of our XC fences are still single unrelated distances.

In some ways your utube videos exactly makes my point that the two different disciplines emphasis balance and the distance a little differently. You described the videos and seem to look at them first and foremost as "missing a distance." I look at it (especially the first) and my very first gut reaction is to seeing the balance falling apart 3-4 strides out, THEN missing the distance as a result. It's a balance problem to me not a distance problem. But your right, it's not that we don't care about distances we just think about them in other terms.

Those are really good points, and I agree with you fully. The problem we have in the h/j world is that no one really cares about balance as long as the horse is able to stay on his feet. The idea of balance before a fence is almost completely foreign. I'm a lot more thorough and classical in my approach, and many, many people either disagree with my style or look at me very strangely. It's because I ride with balance first and foremost in mind and, like you said, balance and shape create the distance. But that goes back to what I was saying about the American concept of finding the "perfect" distance. In reality, distances are relative to each situation and fence. Riders these days only know how to ride a number, not a course. But now I'm really OT!

If that medal rider is now considered one of the better, god help us. That refusal was coming so far back, the horse not in front of the rider, and the lack of round bascule missing. Clever in front? Perhaps, but partly because of the hollow back.

This returns to the question: how are people being trained to approach a fence? What happen to the stellar american caprilli (italian) seat, especially cross country?

FIW...I agree 100%. I am totally unimpressed, saddened, and even sickened at the state of the hunter/jumper/equitation arenas. Our current best is yesteryear's mediocrity. But I'm in a very, very small minority. :no:

[subk]

But that goes back to what I was saying about the American concept of finding the "perfect" distance. In reality, distances are relative to each situation and fence. Riders these days only know how to ride a number, not a course. But now I'm really OT!
Actually I don't think you're OT at all! I think a lot of our xc problems are happening precisely because there is more and more influx of the idea that you ride a distance instead of a balance. The technical questions seem to exacerbate the distance mentality, so we put tables in to make the opposite point and people aren't prepared for the question.

A little like an old AP History teacher of mine, all essay questions on her tests because we didn't know how to write because no one made us write and no one made us write because we didn't know how to write.

Mac what are you doing in H/J Land? You need to jump ship and come on over!

[Mac123]

Actually I don't think you're OT at all! I think a lot of our xc problems are happening precisely because there is more and more influx of the idea that you ride a distance instead of a balance. The technical questions seem to exacerbate the distance mentality, so we put tables in to make the opposite point and people aren't prepared for the question.

A little like an old AP History teacher of mine, all essay questions on her tests because we didn't know how to write because no one made us write and no one made us write because we didn't know how to write.

Mac what are you doing in H/J Land? You need to jump ship and come on over!


You should see how many darn posts, lengthy novel-type posts, I've written for this h/j board about balance. I tell myself to give up because either no one understands or listens, but mostly I just can't help myself from posting!

What a lot of people fail to realize is that to be able to ride in a two point with an extended frame without having a hollow, downhill horse, one MUST do a lot of work sitting and collecting and building self carriage. The ends cannot also be the means. People cannot gallop or canter in two point and expect that their horse will naturally balance over their hindquarters because the horse's weight follows the rider: if the preperatory work is not there, when the rider gets up and forward, the horse's balance point will shift from his hindquarters to his shoulder. I would imagine this to be true for you all out cross country, although since a good deal of your time is spent in dressage, you're way ahead of the game. If we teach the horse to be over hind hindquarters, we can slowly start lengthening the frame with his balance remaining more in the hindquarters. We can in this way maintain shape of the jumping canter and then be able to be perfectly in balance for any jump question as we are easily able to both extend and collect without falling apart or hollowing out.

The hardest thing for most people is to not ride to a particular distance. A helpful exercise for me in this matter was simply cantering over a pole on a circle over and over again. Long distances, short ones, perfect ones...no one died when it got uncomfortable. The horse learns to start adjusting himself to avoid getting that uncomfortable distance, and the rider learns to start simply maintaining the shape of the canter and is able to softly extend or collect slightly to the best distance option.

Haha...you should see me over here in the hunter/jumper world!! I ride in a full seat a lot of the time. My horses go "put together" and over their hindquarters. I use an following hand. I don't jam my heel down. Oh, and I do dressage. Yep, you should see the looks.

BUT, while I like you eventers and would love to jump ship.....those solid cross country fences just scare me!! I jump itsy bitsy ones, but anything much over 3 feet gives me the willies!

[Dr. Doolittle]

You should see how many darn posts, lengthy novel-type posts, I've written for this h/j board about balance. I tell myself to give up because either no one understands or listens, but mostly I just can't help myself from posting!

What a lot of people fail to realize is that to be able to ride in a two point with an extended frame without having a hollow, downhill horse, one MUST do a lot of work sitting and collecting and building self carriage. The ends cannot also be the means. People cannot gallop or canter in two point and expect that their horse will naturally balance over their hindquarters because the horse's weight follows the rider: if the preperatory work is not there, when the rider gets up and forward, the horse's balance point will shift from his hindquarters to his shoulder. I would imagine this to be true for you all out cross country, although since a good deal of your time is spent in dressage, you're way ahead of the game. If we teach the horse to be over hind hindquarters, we can slowly start lengthening the frame with his balance remaining more in the hindquarters. We can in this way maintain shape of the jumping canter and then be able to be perfectly in balance for any jump question as we are easily able to both extend and collect without falling apart or hollowing out.

The hardest thing for most people is to not ride to a particular distance. A helpful exercise for me in this matter was simply cantering over a pole on a circle over and over again. Long distances, short ones, perfect ones...no one died when it got uncomfortable. The horse learns to start adjusting himself to avoid getting that uncomfortable distance, and the rider learns to start simply maintaining the shape of the canter and is able to softly extend or collect slightly to the best distance option.

Haha...you should see me over here in the hunter/jumper world!! I ride in a full seat a lot of the time. My horses go "put together" and over their hindquarters. I use an following hand. I don't jam my heel down. Oh, and I do dressage. Yep, you should see the looks.

BUT, while I like you eventers and would love to jump ship.....those solid cross country fences just scare me!! I jump itsy bitsy ones, but anything much over 3 feet gives me the willies!


Mac123; some *excellent* points, here!

Good training tips (I do all of these things myself, as well as work on them in lessons with my students :))--and great insights...it would help everyone who rides O/F to keep these principles in mind at all times (and though I am NOT a hunter rider, I have done hunters over the years, off and on; I am often amazed that I am usually able to "lay down a good trip"--and do okay in competition--simply because I can get a good canter--with energy but not OTF, adjust my horse's balance (and length of stride), and keep him/her bent around the inside aids, connected and supple, and capable of adjustability; it certainly helps make the trip smooth if you can set up your lines by properly riding the corners! :p

As far as the tables are concerned?? (Shudder...) I am still of the opinion that it's perfectly feasible (and possble) to alter the "shape" to a more easily jumpable form (based on the many good suggestions mentioned by other posters); one that makes more sense to the horse, and that doesn't "punish" the horse/rider pair with inury if/when it's not ridden *perfectly*...:sigh:

This is not rocket science; can we look at the big picture, and do the right thing? It would just require some minor modifications, and would not "dumb down" the sport (or the challenge!) in any way...

[RunForIt]

originally posted by subk:
A little like an old AP History teacher of mine, all essay questions on her tests because we didn't know how to write because no one made us write and no one made us write because we didn't know how to write.


then they should have known that they should teach you HOW to write...step-by-step; teach you the thinking that makes a writer. Come watch, come talk with my 3rd grade kids...

that's part of the problem here in eventing, you can't tell someone to do something and expect them to be able to do it - you have to demonstrate, explain, watch, reteach, keep giving feedback, one size won't fit all - its not going to be perfect, but if you don't teach "how" the cycle you described in your AP history classes will continue in eventing (just like it does in most schools).

[lstevenson]

Actually in the late 80s we had a big problem with tables. They were too square - the back end being the same height as the front and they DID cause problems with people being killed. I believe it was a young rider. Also we had fences called hay feeders which had the front rail in front of the ground line and were very wide at at the top - very bad idea.


That rider was killed on a hay feeder with a false groundline. And the false groundline was the issue there. Tables always had a generously sloping rampy front back then, and were much safer.

[Dr. Doolittle]

So why can we not go BACK to that shape?!?

I was walking a lower level course today with a student (BN at Foxcroft), and they had a hay feeder at BN level (Huh? But it's unrecognized...) They had at LEAST put a bunch of brush down at the base, creating a groundline for the fence--as well as changing its shape; I made a point of using this as example to the student (and her friend, also walking the course with us--who wants to event), of how a jump's intrinsically "less than desirable shape and design" can be altered so as to be safer--and more easily jumpable...

Why can't UL course designers do this, for the good of everyone concerned?? :confused:

[ThirdCharm]

I remember when there was a big hullaballoo about tables and all the couse owners had to go around fixing lumber to the back edges of the tables to make them more visible and make sure the back edge was the mandatory 1" (or whatever) higher than the front. Mid-90s I think?

Jennifer

[Dr. Doolittle]

The Training table at Morven actually has this feature (and Mr. Dr. D was commenting on it--and wondering why they can't ALL do this?!?)

And indeed--why not?? :confused:

[Mudroom]

We need to change the way they are built, they have to give, collaps in a controlled manner when a horse impacts or lands on them. .

Think back to high school, remember the collapsible bleachers in the gym? Couldn't some great engineer design something like that where there were pins that kept a "table" solid until it was hit hard enough and then it could collapse? It might be an added advatage that it would have to have a slight stepping up top which would make it slightly rampy and make the back more visible.

[seeuatx]

The hardest thing for most people is to not ride to a particular distance. A helpful exercise for me in this matter was simply cantering over a pole on a circle over and over again. Long distances, short ones, perfect ones...no one died when it got uncomfortable. The horse learns to start adjusting himself to avoid getting that uncomfortable distance, and the rider learns to start simply maintaining the shape of the canter and is able to softly extend or collect slightly to the best distance option.


<scratches head thoughtfully> Mac.... Have you been talking to my trainer?
Says I who just had my butt kicked over riding the canter and "letting the fence come to me". Seriously, the telepathy vibe is freaking me out ;).