Breaking News: FEI Condemns Hyperflexion as "Mental Abuse"

[Lexi]

...or it could just be a typo. :lol: still confirming

from the FEI Veterinary Committee Report to the Bureau @ Interlaken

STATEMENT ON HYPERFLEXION (ROLLKÜR): the following statement was adopted:
There are no known clinical side effects specifically arising from the use of hyperflexion, however there are serious concerns for a horse's well-being if the technique is not practiced correctly. The FEI condemns hyperflexion in any equestrian sport as an example of mental abuse. The FEI states that it does not support the practice.

FONT=Verdana] http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre/News/Pages/summ.aspx?newsName=news-VET-10April08.aspx[/FONT]

[sm]

well bravo! This means I'll have to change my rinky-dink rulebook which reads:

"II. WELFARE OF THE HORSE
[We] will work in conjunction with all governing bodies to ensure the welfare of the horse. Our policy is zero tolerance for abuse. Abusive behavior may result in immediate membership suspension and forfeiture of any awards, or points accrued to date.

"We support the welfare policies of our various affiliated equine organizations, with the exception of the Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI) ruling regarding Rollkur. We consider biting-the-chest Rollkur Training Sessions to be abusive, which falls into our zero tolerance for abuse category. Long and Low, or temporarily somewhat Behind the Vertical, are acceptable. An emergency situation where the horse is compromised into a rollkur-type position can be understandable. However, Rollkur Training Sessions will result in immediate suspension... "

[dressager]

sm- is that from the USEF rulebook?

[TWF]

Finally.

[Dressage Art]

YAY!!!!!!!!

[dsgshowmom]

About time!!!!! I saw Edward Gal do this in person and I was waiting and waiting for a judge or someone raise a penalty flag, or something. This was during the warmup at the World Cup in 2007 and I was like "Well, thats rollkur in real life".

I was very disappointed that no one even commented about it. :no:

[Rusty Stirrup]

Ah, but will it change the judging?

[2boys]

What jumped out at me was "if not used correctly". That sounds to me like not a total condemnation. Anyone else? Or am I misreading?

[Rhiannonjk]

What jumped out at me was "if not used correctly". That sounds to me like not a total condemnation. Anyone else? Or am I misreading?

To me, it reads "we are willing to make an overall statement on it, but acknowledge that some people aren't torturing their horses." ie - they don't think that it is bad in all cases, but can't make exceptions, so they are making an overall ruling.

[egontoast]

There is something wrong there.

It makes no sense to say something constitutes abuse in one part of the statement and in another part of the statement claim it is abuse if used incorrectly (which has been the previous conclusion) and which apparently means it is not abuse "if used correctly" whatever that may mean.

It adds no clarity to the subject.:confused:

[ride-n-tx]

I agree that the wording is a little ambiguous, but I think that overall it conveys that the FEI is not in favor of the general use of Rollkur.

To me, the statement reads that the FEI doesn't condone the use of Rollkur but they are not about to tell someone like Anky that she cannot use it. ;)

I still think that overall it is a good message. Hopefully it will get across to less able riders that hyperflexion is not a way to ride and it is not a subject to be taken lightly.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Politics as usual. "No known clinical effects," but "mental abuse." WTF? :confused:

Equine psychotherapy anyone? :rolleyes: :lol::lol:

[UK.riders]

RK/HF is only abusive if used by somebody else than Anky or Sjef.:lol:;)

[ise@ssl]

I think when people see it spectators should just start hissing like cats - something to make it known that it's not right and should be PROHIBITED.

[SGray]

RK/HF is only abusive if used by somebody else than Anky or Sjef.:lol:;)

or their students

[J Swan]

It adds no clarity to the subject.:confused:

Perhaps that was the intent.

Looks like Anky won the World Cup again. One wonders why other competitors bother to show up anymore....

[sm]

sm- is that from the USEF rulebook?

No, North American Thoroughbred Society. Just changed it this morning, but left a reference in regarding RK/Hyperflexion. Just so there's no confusion. Page 1, http://www.hellohorse.com/2008NATBSRulebk.pdf

We're not awarding that crap, even in test scores awarded and accepted towards USDF All Breeds. As a Participating Org, all we do is report rider is not in good standing and not eligible for All Breed awards -- end of story. FEI ruling has no weight in this instance.

[Eclectic Horseman]

No, North American Thoroughbred Society. Just changed it this morning, but left a reference in regarding RK/Hyperflexion. Just so there's no confusion. Page 1, http://www.hellohorse.com/2008NATBSRulebk.pdf

We're not awarding that crap, even in test scores awarded and accepted towards USDF All Breeds. As a Participating Org, all we do is report rider is not in good standing and not eligible for All Breed awards -- end of story. FEI ruling has no weight in this instance.

Apparently it is still okay for the welfare of the North American Thoroughbred Horse to die of pulmonary edema on cross country. :rolleyes: Priorities, priorities. Tsk.

[see u at x]

Apparently it is still okay for the welfare of the North American Thoroughbred Horse to die of pulmonary edema on cross country. :rolleyes: Priorities, priorities. Tsk.

Ouch...

[sm]

Apparently it is still okay for the welfare of the North American Thoroughbred Horse to die of pulmonary edema on cross country. :rolleyes: Priorities, priorities. Tsk.

How did you leap to that weird conclusion? Cross country, or the short format lack of it, you'll have to take up with the FEI, USEA and USEF. And the vets at these events. And why pulmonary issues alone and not soem of the complex jumps that cause death?

Hyerflexion is a training issue that's 100% predictable and 100% preventable.

What a weird and bitter post...

[eqsiu]

Apparently it is still okay for the welfare of the North American Thoroughbred Horse to die of pulmonary edema on cross country. :rolleyes: Priorities, priorities. Tsk.

No. It is not. Which is why eventers are yet again wondering when we'll get better info on how to prevent/treat/recognize EIPH in our horses.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

What jumped out at me was "if not used correctly". That sounds to me like not a total condemnation. Anyone else? Or am I misreading?

Yep, sounds to me like "anyone who's not Anky shouldn't do it"

[slc2]

What the statement does is start to establish an entirely new area of authority for them - to regulate warmups. I think it's extremely wise of them to state it this way, actually. They have to build up a legal basis for regulating warmups. They don't clearly have that authority based on the rules they have now. They have established their right to regulate the age of the animal, number of shows...they have not yet established their right to regulate warmups.

Don't look for an immediate change to instantly get rid of every trace of extreme positioning in the warmup. It's been going on for nearly 25 years...it's going to take time. And...it's not an 'Anky thing' or an 'Anky student thing'. It's just very common overall.

As for 'so what, they can still do it at home'....well....a person is going to be shooting himself in the foot if he schools his horse one way at home and another at shows. If some techniques are more and more controlled at shows it WILL affect schooling at home.

[pinecone]

No, North American Thoroughbred Society.

We're not awarding that crap, even in test scores awarded and accepted towards USDF All Breeds. As a Participating Org, all we do is report rider is not in good standing and not eligible for All Breed awards -- end of story. FEI ruling has no weight in this instance.

:confused:
Wait a minute, back up the bus.

You are saying, you make your own rules and arbitrarily disqualify members from USDF All-Breeds Awards? Who polices this? What qualifications would they have to determine who to disqualify? How would you monitor the entire country? People pay their dues, go to shows, do well enough to get on the radar for USDF All-Breeds, and your breed registry arbitrarily disqualifies them because you think they support or use hyperflexion? Yikes what a slippery slope with far too many loopholes for abusing it to take out vendettas on riders and trainers. It makes me want to pull up your registry's All-Breeds results, which would now be meaningless if you are saying what you seem to be saying, because who knows who you've disqualified or if they deserved it.

USDF lets you get away with this, and your members tolerate it? I am gobsmacked.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Jealoushe]

Apparently it is still okay for the welfare of the North American Thoroughbred Horse to die of pulmonary edema on cross country. :rolleyes: Priorities, priorities. Tsk.

ummm doesnt just happen on cross-country... and they ARE doing something about it.
http://useventing.com/education.php?id=1466

[rileyt]

I have to say... as a lawyer, the wording of that provision is appallingly bad.

If you want to leave yourself "wiggle room", there are ways to do it. If you want to prohibit it only when done "incorrectly" there are ways to do it.

But THAT, is outright contradictory and unhelpful. It APPEARS to me to label it "mental abuse" regardless of whether its done correctly or not. And if that is truly their position, why put the caveat in the previous sentence?

Boo hiss. FEI needs new lawyers.

[Eclectic Horseman]

ummm doesnt just happen on cross-country... and they ARE doing something about it.
http://useventing.com/education.php?id=1466

Never mind. Obviously you missed my point. This is the entire section on Welfare of the Horse from the North American Thoroughbred Society rulebook-

"II. WELFARE OF THE HORSE
North American Thoroughbred Society will work in conjunction with all governing bodies to ensure the welfare of the horse. Our policy is zero tolerance for abuse. Abusive behavior may result in immediate membership suspension and forfeiture of any awards, and points, accrued to date.

With regard to Hyperflexion, also known as Rollkur: We consider Rollkur Training Sessions to be abusive,which falls into our zero tolerance for abuse category. Long and Low, or temporarily somewhat Behind the Vertical, are acceptable. An emergency situation where the horse is compromised into a rollkur-type position can be understandable. However, Rollkur or Hyperflexion Training Sessions will result in immediate]suspension of NATBS membership with forfeiture of any awards, and points, accrued to date."

My point is if hyperflexion, which has not been shown to have any adverse "clinical effect," takes up one paragraph of a two paragraph policy on welfare of the horse, then their priorities are a bit screwed up. Unproveable, unmeasureable presumed "mental abuse" is pretty low down on the scale of abuse of horses, TBs in particular, in my view. :rolleyes: Personally I would start with racing and training horses that are 2 years old and under (particularly when lame) and move on to their use in other sports that endanger their lifes and limbs such as eventing in the short format without frangible pin fences. But that would be me. Others seem to think for some reason that hyperflexion is a fate worse than death. Alrighty then. :no:

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/erbe/2008/04/10/riding-kills-horses-too.html

[Eclectic Horseman]

I have to say... as a lawyer, the wording of that provision is appallingly bad.

If you want to leave yourself "wiggle room", there are ways to do it. If you want to prohibit it only when done "incorrectly" there are ways to do it.

But THAT, is outright contradictory and unhelpful. It APPEARS to me to label it "mental abuse" regardless of whether its done correctly or not. And if that is truly their position, why put the caveat in the previous sentence?

Boo hiss. FEI needs new lawyers.


That's why I said that it was a political policy statement and not an honest attempt at a rule.

[slc2]

i don't think it's either, I think it's creating a basis for regulating warmups, not yet actually regulating them.

[Eclectic Horseman]

i don't think it's either, I think it's creating a basis for regulating warmups, not yet actually regulating them.

Right. As rileyt said, it is not a rule they could enforce. You could drive a truck through the loopholes. Much too vague to be applied, characterize it however you like.

[Rhiannonjk]

slc - aren't the warmups already regulated in many other ways? Any TD could pull a rider away at a warmup if they believe the horse is being mistreated.
Aren't whips illegal in some warmups? Or is that USDF?

[Auventera Two]

SLC - Warmups are already regulated.

And it's about d*mned time they get some cajones and say something about this practice. It's ugly, it's completely contradictory to what dressage *is* and it makes for a horrible public image. I will be exceedingly glad when the Anky Era is over. Maybe then I'll be able to enjoy the sport a little more. When she's not out there winning everything anymore, then perhaps the practice will fall from favor.

[oldschool]

Isn't winning what it's all about? While, I confess I am not anywhere near being a trainer, the people at my barn who seem to go to the"big" shows, all either ride in draw reins, a double bridle and use rollkur 24/7. They come home with their blue ribbons happy as clams. One instructor, especially guilty of this, was telling everyone who would listen, that her junior ride won some big championship but upon further inspection it was revealed that there were only two people in the class and the score was mid 50's. I guess if winning is so important, and teaching young kids the "benefits" of rollkur and tying the horses head down by any means, so they can get through a six minute test, than the usdf and the like have done their job. They are the ones that make the "anything goes, to win" attitude with their proposed qualifying score rule. Europe is a lost cause for animal rights. But maybe in America, there is still hope. On one hand, we've been given the training scale from germany to emulate, but on the other hand, we're encouraged to do whatever it takes to get the poor beast to Grand Prix. WTF??

[J Swan]

Apparently it is still okay for the welfare of the North American Thoroughbred Horse to die of pulmonary edema on cross country. :rolleyes: Priorities, priorities. Tsk.


Uh - no it isn't. You are way out in left field with that one.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Uh - no it isn't. You are way out in left field with that one.


Dear lord, it was an ironical statement. For spoon feeding, please see the 6th post above yours where I explain that in my view, hyperflexion would not be my primary concern in the abuse department. :rolleyes: It is the ONLY practice specified as abuse in the N. American TB society rules. That smacks of fanaticism, in my view.

[egontoast]

What the statement does is start to establish an entirely new area of authority for them - to regulate warmups. I think it's extremely wise of them to state it this way, actually

No. It's not wise at all and it establishes nothing. You can't regulate anything if you state in one sentence that something is abuse and then say in another sentence essentially that it's not abuse if done correctly. Too vague, contradictory and therefore unenforceable.

very poor drafting

[J Swan]

Dear lord, it was an ironical statement. For spoon feeding, please see the 6th post above yours where I explain that in my view, hyperflexion would not be my primary concern in the abuse department. :rolleyes:

I understand but still disagree. The condition those horses suffered from is not confined to the event horse, is taken seriously by vets and horsemen around the world, and has nothing to do with a training method.

I say apples and oranges - but do understand what you were trying to get at.

[SGray]

Yep, sounds to me like "anyone who's not Anky shouldn't do it"

or perhaps "anyone who's not Dutch"?

[egontoast]

if the FEI cannot come out and say without reservation that a training method is abusive, then why condemn the DUTCH.

If it's so clearly abusive, why can't the FEI say so. If they can't say so, maybe they aren't sure??????:confused:

Please note I'm not expressing an opinion about the method at all, just noting the fuzzy non statement from the FEI.

[Auventera Two]

Dear lord, it was an ironical statement. For spoon feeding, please see the 6th post above yours where I explain that in my view, hyperflexion would not be my primary concern in the abuse department. :rolleyes: It is the ONLY practice specified as abuse in the N. American TB society rules. That smacks of fanaticism, in my view.

I respect your views, but I don't think a horse dropping dead on course due to pulmonary failure can be considered abuse UNLESS the rider KNOWINGLY pushed the horse when he was struggling. Horses die in all disciplines but I think it is perhaps "more likely" to happen in eventing, fox hunting, horse racing, jumping, or endurance, etc. where there is a high rate of speed and metabolic fatigue. Obviously a horse could go into metabolic failure during a western pleasure class, but I would be inclined to believe that when horses are cross the aerobic/anaerobic threshhold, there is a signifigantly increased risk of breakdown.

The AERC conducts extensive reviews of endurance horse deaths and makes every effort to determine if the death was due to rider error or poor judgement or if it were a freak incident that could not have been prevented. They publish these findings in the monthly magazine and on their website. If a rider was determined to be at fault for the horse's death, they take disciplinary measures such as banning the member from the organization, or from rides, instiling probationary periods or special terms, etc. I would assume other organizations have similiar systems in place.

Willful neglect or abuse or poor judgement is an entirely different issue than a freak accident that could not have been prevented. A horse can die while loose in the field eating hay. Responsible organizations take measures to mitigate risk but it is accepted that there is a level of risk inherently involved to both equines and their riders both during competition, in the warmup, and at home.

[sm]

Pinecone, first try reading for comprehension. Then refer to USDF General rules: "Horse and owner must meet all requirements of the PO. " http://www.usdf.org/awards/all-breeds/all-breeds.asp

If we receive a substantiated report/video on any type of abuse from show management (USDF has Horse Welfare Rules too), we will act accordingly. We are not on a witch hunt.

And you're offended not that there is abuse out there, but that we WON'T AWARD it? I don't know any members that want to see abuse rewarded...

[class]

it just seems weird and "witch hunty" to call out ONE form of abuse in your little rule book, but not others.

[Roan]

I don't care much for the wording or the fact that it's rather wishy-washy either, BUT you have to ask yourself what would happen if they just said, "no more rollkur"?

What would happen? Can you imagine shows -- this summer -- where BNR/Ts cannot use their rollkur in warm up? The FEI would probably lose a LOT of money because they would lose all the BNR/Ts.

IMO, this is just a beginning. This is a warning to those BNR/Ts who use it and I bet a year from now, they will pass a firm ruling law against it AND enforce it. This gives "those that do" time to figure how how they heck they are going to win if they "don't".

My 2 cents
Eileen

[Equibrit]

STATEMENT ON HYPERFLEXION (ROLLKÜR):
the following statement was adopted:

There are no known clinical side effects specifically arising from the use of hyperflexion,..They haven't come up with proof of physical damage

however there are serious concerns for a horse's well-being if the technique is not practiced correctly.....It's too easy to misuse.

The FEI condemns hyperflexion in any equestrian sport as an example of mental abuse........It drives horses nuts.


The FEI states that it does not support the practice.

[pinecone]

Pinecone, first try reading for comprehension. Then refer to USDF General rules: "Horse and owner must meet all requirements of the PO. " http://www.usdf.org/awards/all-breeds/all-breeds.asp

If we receive a substantiated report/video on any type of abuse from show management (USDF has Horse Welfare Rules too), we will act accordingly. We are not on a witch hunt.

And you're offended not that there is abuse out there, but that we WON'T AWARD it? I don't know any members that want to see abuse rewarded...

My reading comprehension is actually pretty good, thanks.

I doubt the USDF rule about meeting the requirements of the PO was intended to mean "Horse and owner must meet all fanatical arbitrary requirements of the PO and may be subjected to witch hunts and vendettas."

USDF Horse Welfare rules are not the same as your little rules about hyperflexion. Sorry, apples and oranges. You openly admit to somewhat arbitrarily making, and changing, your rules regardless of the USDF, USEF, or FEI. You can't hide behind the USDF Horse Welfare rules.

"If we receive a substantiated report/video on any type of abuse from show management (USDF has Horse Welfare Rules too), we will act accordingly."

Umm, this isn't the same thing as making riders ineligible for USDF All Breeds awards because of hyperflexion. Again, you're trying to hide behind the USDF Horse Welfare rules, but it's not those rules you're enforcing.

I'm just gobsmacked a registry could get away with this, and I wonder if your members are aware, and I wonder what the USDF would think of it.

Not that I have a Thoroughbred or give a crap, really, but fanatics and unfairness and witch hunts irk me, and you sound like you're guilty of all three. Whatever. If I ever buy another Thoroughbred, you can be sure I wouldn't be registering it with the North American Thoroughbred Society, and I don't even train using hyperflexion.

As for the wording of the FEI statement? Yeah, it needs work.

[pinecone]

it just seems weird and "witch hunty" to call out ONE form of abuse in your little rule book, but not others.

Yeah, exactly.

[grayarabs]

Well there are some big-time O qualifiers coming up, yes? I will not be anywhere near any of them - but I would join in a "cat hiss" protest - wish all the spectators would.
Wonder what could be achieved between now and the Olympics. Curious - the BN riders that use RK - if they could not use it - in warm-ups (I guess no one could monitor them outside a show venue) - wonder how there rides would go? Have their even been RK protests at show?

[grayarabs]

Sorry - many typing errors my previous post. How did I manage that?
Has there ever been a protest against RK at a show venue?

[siegi b.]

I just can't help myself with this one.... :-)
Here's a picture I took today of one of my mares with her 6-day old Hotline filly. Talk about hyperflexion AND a Spanish walk-like canter!!! :-)

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee243/sbelz/rollkurandspanishwalk.jpg

Enjoy!

[vineyridge]

Good thing is that the way it's worded will apply to show jumpers as well. But I guess if you are a world class show jumper you will, by definition, be using it correctly.

[purplnurpl]

To me, it reads "we are willing to make an overall statement on it, but acknowledge that some people aren't torturing their horses." ie - they don't think that it is bad in all cases, but can't make exceptions, so they are making an overall ruling.

exactly.
the statement means nothing.

they don't support it. that's all.

[Dune]

I just can't help myself with this one.... :-)
Here's a picture I took today of one of my mares with her 6-day old Hotline filly. Talk about hyperflexion AND a Spanish walk-like canter!!! :-)

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee243/sbelz/rollkurandspanishwalk.jpg

Enjoy!

That's great! :lol: I don't think I got any responses on my comments regarding the riderless Morgan doing a pirouette with a swishy tail, overbent and eyes rolling back in his head either. :winkgrin:

[Calamber]

Now Siegi, I love the picture of this mare and she is gorgeous, but this is not hyperflexion as is practiced by a fanatical (and yes I know what that is) rider. I have seen it, I have watched it in practice in training and I cry for the horses. This particular rider (and I am not a trained dressage rider) was constantly in the horses mouths bending him/her from side to side even walking in the barn. In fact, I remember the first time I had seen some semblance of this practiced with dressage riders on a supposedly relaxing trail ride, and it was constant pull,pull,pull, it puzzled the life out of me but I just chalked it up to the caricatured dressage queen, control freak. I had no idea this was an accepted way of "training" a horse to flex or to strengthen muscle or whatever it is reputed to accomplish. I do notice alot of horses who do not work from behind but are real fine with the flexion. It seems like any other advancement in principle without the complete understanding of the "science" of the method, it becomes one of those, don't try this at home spectacles. In that it constitutes abuse in the wrong hands or with a bad or incomplete rider is without a doubt. But I have alot of problems with the new age of dressage anyway. Ever since I watched Robert Dover ride, and he is an accomplished rider no doubt, and got the overall impression of a model horse that moves, not the beautiful impression of a supremely powerful, yet graceful animal dancing with controlled joy in partnership with a skilled rider, I have looked with some bated eye at quite a bit of dressage competitions. It can still move me to tears when done well but I usually cannot stand to watch more than a few at a time at most of the competitions which I have peeked in on lately.

[SEPowell]

Now Siegi, I love the picture of this mare and she is gorgeous, but this is not hyperflexion as is practiced by a fanatical (and yes I know what that is) rider. I have seen it, I have watched it in practice in training and I cry for the horses. This particular rider (and I am not a trained dressage rider) was constantly in the horses mouths bending him/her from side to side even walking in the barn. In fact, I remember the first time I had seen some semblance of this practiced with dressage riders on a supposedly relaxing trail ride, and it was constant pull,pull,pull, it puzzled the life out of me but I just chalked it up to the caricatured dressage queen, control freak.

The first time I saw that type of "dressage riding" I remember thinking, "Now I know why she has so much trouble riding thoroughbreds..."

[nhwr]

Anyone else find it odd that on the one hand the FEI feels they have to make some sort of half a$$ed negative statement about "hyperflexation" yet on the other hand they can't produce judges that fail to reward its results in the competition arena?

IMO, the FEI is just pandering, trying to play both sides of the fence :rolleyes:

[Foxtrot's]

If any posters on this board practice hyperflexion they are conspicuously absent. What are they afraid of?

[ESG]

What jumped out at me was "if not used correctly". That sounds to me like not a total condemnation. Anyone else? Or am I misreading?

No, you're not misreading - I noticed that, too.

You do know what that phrase is, don't you? It's the FEI's "out" whenever someone protests. "Well, they were using hyperflexion correctly, so we can't censure them." :rolleyes:

Loopholes, loopholes, everywhere. Everyone has to cover their @$$, I guess. :sigh:

[ec412]

I just can't help myself with this one.... :-)
Here's a picture I took today of one of my mares with her 6-day old Hotline filly. Talk about hyperflexion AND a Spanish walk-like canter!!! :-)

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee243/sbelz/rollkurandspanishwalk.jpg

Enjoy!

great photo

[Sabine]

If any posters on this board practice hyperflexion they are conspicuously absent. What are they afraid of?

Good Hyperflexion is in the hands of super professionals- I hope you don't expect those to post on this board...;)!
The 'out' in the statement is there- because noone knows 100% conclusively that it IS damaging and immediately, instantly abusive. However it is- without any doubts when practiced by the wrong crowd.
It kind of tells everyone to stay clear of it- unless you have some brilliant skills and can really pull it off- proof being excellent competition scores and most of all horses that don't break down every 5 minutes...all that is 'known' when you are involved in the active comp circuit.
So I take this as a general discouragement of the masses to further engage in testing or practicing this method...and I very much agree with that. :)!

[amastrike]

Good Hyperflexion is in the hands of super professionals

1. I don't think "good hyperflexion" exists.
2. If the person is such a super professional, I would hope they could get the horse going well without resorting to abusive training methods.

[citydog]

Europe is a lost cause for animal rights. But maybe in America, there is still hope.

Actually, in many cases the EU frequently has much more stringent animal (companion, food, and laboratory) welfare laws than the US does.

[Sabine]

Actually, in many cases the EU frequently has much more stringent animal (companion, food, and laboratory) welfare laws than the US does.

Yup- that's true- what was the name of the football player that had this horrible fighting dog operation in the east somewhere....the guy would have been taken out in Europe- not thinkable ever....more humane in ways of animals and environment...sorry but they are light years ahead of us....:(!

[Sabine]

1. I don't think "good hyperflexion" exists.
2. If the person is such a super professional, I would hope they could get the horse going well without resorting to abusive training methods.

Sorry- it only tells that you don't know the competitive world- which is no fault of yours of course.
It's not about 'going well' anymore- it's about wowing the crowd and the judges...it's a super athlete's sport and there are only a few super people athletes like this that have the feel and the tact and the skill- and there are only a few super athletes like that amongst the horses...and all that is alright- unless you want to be one of them ...then you will have to march to a different drummer...

[amastrike]

Sorry- it only tells that you don't know the competitive world- which is no fault of yours of course.
It's not about 'going well' anymore- it's about wowing the crowd and the judges...it's a super athlete's sport and there are only a few super people athletes like this that have the feel and the tact and the skill- and there are only a few super athletes like that amongst the horses...and all that is alright- unless you want to be one of them ...then you will have to march to a different drummer...
I know the competitive world doesn't care about right.. unfortunately. It's incredibly sad when people are rewarded for being lazy and taking shortcuts that are harmful to the horse. Oh well, not like I'll ever be amongst them.. I can putter around on my old TB and have fun and try to do things correctly, even if it's not fancy and dramatic.

[Foxtrot's]

I think Sabine was being tongue-in-cheek.

[slc2]

I agree with the poster who suggested that there are worse types of abuse that need to stopped, but I'm not sure that means everything else should be ignored. I don't agree with the logic that any quote or statement here proves that pulmonary edema is ignored or condoned in eventing.

An organization that wants to strip someone of awards if anyone ever reports that the rider was seen positioning the horse in an extreme way has a right to make its own rules. They need to recognize that it gives everyone with a grudge a way to get even with someone, and they need to recognize that many horse people would like nothing better than an avenue for getting even with someone else - for beating them in a class, for selling them a horse that turned out to be less able, or for being 'a snob' at the local saddle club meeting. And....they need to recognize that alot of riders will not join their organization because of that problem.

And I firmly believe that other organizations don't have rules like this because of the difficulty they create, not because they condone all sorts of warmup methods.

TD's and judges most emphatically do NOT have a precedence or a basis in their rules currently for stopping or regulating certain warmup methods, and right now, if they tried, they would fail, and they would become embroiled in a fight that would end the FEI. :yes:

They ONLY have the backing and rules in place to stop or fine behavior, such as repeated and extended whipping and spurring. What they have the ability to regulate now is similar to the degree of abuse american legal system can regulate - only the most blatant stuff that produces wounds or injury.

I think it is absurd to condemn 'the competitive world' and claim all competitive riders care about is winning.:yes: or to say that competitive dressage horses are stressed out. In fact, stress hormone measurement studies found that therapy riding horses had the highest stress hormone levels, and competitive dressage horses, a much more moderate stress hormone level. We choose to not believe that because therapy riding is 'good' and competitive riding is 'bad' and we 'know' that.

And DESPITE some small time local being proud of a kid winning a class with a fiftyish score, i STILL do not think 'the competitive world' is full, or even NEARLY full, of people who just don't give a rat's ass about their horses.

And in fact, the most UNCARING, win at all costs riders I ever met never used rollkur at all, they were 'very classical' in method. Yes I do know dressage riders like that, but I also know quite a few who are most emphatically NOT like that.

Nor do I believe that judges are that stupid that they reward such incorrect work. The judges I know are VERY concerned about horse welfare and care meticulously for their own horses.

In any case, it's quite possible the student you complained about (with the fiftyish score) is building confidence by showing and that a fiftyish score is actually VERY GOOD for her at this early point in her riding, regardless of whether the trainer has the students ride the horses in an extreme position or not. She may have a very average horse and just be learning, which would easily account for a low score - so would a horse that spooked at the judge's trailer.

You want to make that statement of that trainer's fit into the case you're trying to build - it may not fit at all, and the remark may not have been at all in the spirit you suggest.

No, egon, I am not personal friends with all the top riders.

But I know a few of them, and they DO care about their horses. Very much. The kind of attention they give to their horses is incredible and how minutely attentive they are to the horse's reactions to their work is something we ALL could learn from. And no, the riders I'm thinking of don't ride horses in extreme positions, but riding a horse in an extreme position doesn't mean the person is a vile abuser.

All it really means is they worked with someone who taught them that. Like all riding and training methods in all disciplines, what you think is 'good' and 'bad' is determined by who you're around and what you get exposed to. The western and arab trainers that use an extreme position for their horses would be shocked if you told them it was 'rollkur' and 'abusive'. 'I'm just supplin' up my horse!' they would say.

[egontoast]

No, egon, I am not personal friends with all the top riders.



:confused::confused::confused:

WHAT are you raving about now, slc? You must be hallucinating again if you see any post where I said that. My comments were just about the vagueness of the statement.

[arnika]

by Sabine
Good Hyperflexion is in the hands of super professionals- I hope you don't expect those to post on this board...;)!
The 'out' in the statement is there- because noone knows 100% conclusively that it IS damaging and immediately, instantly abusive. However it is- without any doubts when practiced by the wrong crowd.
It kind of tells everyone to stay clear of it- unless you have some brilliant skills and can really pull it off- proof being excellent competition scores and most of all horses that don't break down every 5 minutes...all that is 'known' when you are involved in the active comp circuit.
So I take this as a general discouragement of the masses to further engage in testing or practicing this method...and I very much agree with that. :)!

In other words, as was stated previously; if you're not Sjef, Anky, Edward or Coby, you shouldn't use this or we'll warn you off. But for them it's OK since they are the stars. :rolleyes:

[sm]

it just seems weird and "witch hunty" to call out ONE form of abuse in your little rule book, but not others.

The FEI says it's okay in some cases, and harmful to the horse in other cases, without defining where the rider goes over the line. Not very clear guidelines, so we made it clear and took away all gray areas. That's why it has it's own paragraph and is addressed.

ALL ABUSE is treated the same, there is not an emphasis on one over the other.

PINECONE: you go off on diatribes about arbitrary (?) disqualification , snooping around and vetting out trainers, imagined vendettas, etc. None of which are even remotely true! Your conclusions are simply not based in fact. That is why I asked you to read for comprehension. Are you sure you're not the fanatic off on a witch hunt? :no:

[nhwr]

The FEI says it's okay in some cases, and harmful to the horse in other cases, without defining where the rider goes over the line.That could be said of all riding, generally.

I have had one horse schooled using rolkur by someone who knew what they were doing. I have 2 things to say about it. Most people don't have the faintest idea what it is in reality. And the results were amazing. OK maybe 3 things; my horse loved that particular trainer.

[sm]

I have had one horse schooled using rolkur by someone who knew what they were doing... Most people don't have the faintest idea what it is in reality.

I can see your point. I also think Slc2 made some excellent points in post 66.

[cinder88]

I read this as two different statements, the physical aspect and the mental aspect.
So, done incoorectly they believe it is harmful, physically.
Done at all, (correctly or incorrectly), it is harmful mentally.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

They haven't been able to PROVE it is harmful physically, thereby giving the "pro's" the option.

The HAVE been able to prove it is harmful mentally, therefore no one has the option.

THAT is how I read it.

Then again, I ride First Lvel, so who am I?

Cinder

[slc2]

anyone can express an opinion, regardless of level. it's never guaranteed how well received it will be regardless of the person's level :) .

[nhwr]

I read this as two different statements, the physical aspect and the mental aspect.
So, done incoorectly they believe it is harmful, physically.
Done at all, (correctly or incorrectly), it is harmful mentally.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

They haven't been able to PROVE it is harmful physically, thereby giving the "pro's" the option.

The HAVE been able to prove it is harmful mentally, therefore no one has the option.

THAT is how I read it.

Then again, I ride First Lvel, so who am I? It is not your riding in question, but maybe your reading comprehension. ;)
The FEI expressed concern but offered no proof of a problem.

As I said earlier, maybe they got their info from a psychic :lol:

[sm]

But here's the latest verdict: "The FEI condemns hyperflexion in any equestrian sport as an example of mental abuse. The FEI states that it does not support the practice. "
http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre/News/Pages/summ.aspx?newsName=news-VET-10April08.aspx

Pinecone and Class: I guess it's acceptable to you, and I'm no longer on a witch hunt, if I replace FEI with NORTH AMERICAN THOROUGHBRED SOCIETY and put this in the NATS rulebook. Okay with you guys? The problem with that is, my rule is softer because it allows for temporary RK-like position.

[slc2]

what auventura and others are missing is that the fei has never regulated warmups in this way.

riders have always been allowed to position their horses however they want in warmup. if this is an arguable statement, go to a show. one will see that riders are allowed to position their horses deep, low, long, hyperflexed, with no contact, bent to the right or left, or in any other way they choose.

no, the 'mental abuse' is not proven by research. it is an opinion, and may later be shown to be true thru research - if a valid study can be designed. that may be very difficult. stress hormones usually used to show 'mental' state of animals simply do not prove their point.

egon, it might have something to do with all the times you accused me of 'pretending to be close friends' with any named person i mention.:lol:

i agree with nhwr that there definitely are people who seem to be able to make some amount of hyperflexion a part of creating a very supple horse that is very honest and solid on the bit. and no, it doesn't appear that this is easily correlated to how long or how extreme the position is or isn't.

i rode one horse in holland like nhwr described. he was a very, very happy camper, exhuberant and by no means 'subjugated'. and there was no doubt he was both hyperflexed AND taking a contact with the bit and was extremely supple - in fact his leg yields, shoulder in and half passes felt like melting butter - in fact he was extremely good on the bit but you HAD to ride him from your seat and leg and not simply pull on the reins.

frankly i think a hyperflexed horse demands an EXTREME amount of correctness from the rider. it's just as the uphoff student i talked to told me - it requires that the horse is very forward off the leg (no, not fast and hectic) and very much ridden from the seat and not the reins.

so much so that, for every one like the happy camper, there were 5 more that were behind the bit...and SOME of them were trained in a rollkur like position, and SOME of them were not! a person can just as easily put a horse behind the bit with or without hyperflexion of the neck. two of the worst 'headless horses' i rode there, i was told had not been hyperflexed in their training at all. 'behind the bit' is an independent trait that any sort of training can potentially produce.

if there is a rule that bars this from warmups, it may be very good for the sport. not for how it affects those who can use this to benefit, but how it affects those who CAN'T.

the fei statement makes it seeem like one of those techniques that a handful of successful users are forced to stop using so that everyone else won't use it.

even if many bb posters don't agree that some use this to benefit, they may find they like the outcome anyway, even if it doesn't happen quickly enough for them.

the thing i find most puzzling about all this, is that before this method came along, a great many riders would position their horses VERY extremely - to one side or another. no one complained about that, even when horses were galloping around the warmup with their head on the rider's knee for surprisingly long periods. i remember watching many of the avowed 'anti rollkurists' doing this in the warmup. this is ALSO extreme positioning.

it will be interesting to see if all forms of extreme positioning come under target, or if just rollkur will. i'm betting rollkur is the only form of extreme positioning that comes under fire.

[PineTreeFarm]

Pinecone and Class: I guess it's acceptable to you, and I'm no longer on a witch hunt, if I replace FEI with NORTH AMERICAN THOROUGHBRED SOCIETY and put this in the NATS rulebook. Okay with you guys? The problem with that is, my rule is softer because it allows for temporary RK-like position.

Are there any horses in your 'registry' approved for the All Breeds Awards?

[sm]

yupper!

And there are horses approved for other award programs with the other disciplines. The one rulebook works for ALL disciplines and for all North American shows: recognized, unrecognized, in the USA and Canada, and the Worldwide Trail program.

[egontoast]

egon, it might have something to do with all the times you accused me of 'pretending to be close friends' with any named person i mention

I think there are meds for that. Try replying to what's actually said !

:lol::lol::lol:

[nhwr]

"The FEI condemns hyperflexion in any equestrian sport as an example of mental abuse. The FEI states that it does not support the practice. "And yet their judges keep ranking riders who use it well. Anyone else see a contradiction there?

[slc2]

The statement was I think made on April 8. There hasn't been time to judge its effect.

But even if they 'condemn' it, that doesn't say what they are going to do. Nothing has been stated that anything will change. It seems likely something will now change, but I wouldn't expect it to happen quickly or to be everything one desires.

And even if it did make changes, all the FEI can do is say 'you can't do this at the show'. They can't say (unlike other organizations, LOL) that they will disqualify, disbar or reduce the scores of anyone they THINK is doing it at home.

The other organization doing that could probably not withstand a legal challenge if they were actually running the competitions, they may not even withstand a legal challenge just with what they're doing. But the other organization is saying they will not provide awards to people who do rollkur. That's really got nothing to do with regulating shows, which the FEI does.

[nhwr]

They have been laying the foundation for this for some time.
This statement is meant to dovetail with their "happy horse" policy, IMO.

The idea that this will be solved by prohibiting it at horse shows is too subjective. How will it be judged? A horse was ridden BTV, too low or with too much lateral flexion and you are eliminated? What about other examples of bad riding, they are OK?

I have seen TDs turn a blind eye to lots of bad things in the warm up out of fear of the legal repercussions. Adding something else to the list won't change anything, especially something that is intangible and requires a judgement call .

[sm]

The other organization doing that could probably not withstand a legal challenge if they were actually running the competitions, they may not even withstand a legal challenge just with what they're doing. But the other organization is saying they will not provide awards to people who do rollkur. That's really got nothing to do with regulating shows, which the FEI does.

If someone sends a video off to said ORG: it doesn't mean the ORG will agree it is abuse. They might say yes the horse is in a RK-like position temporarily but the rules allow for that. We have reviewed it, we see a happy, content, and thriving horse, and we can not see abuse. We find no fault to act on.

If it's questionable: ORG would contact the rider and say we really do not like what we see in way of evidence presented, please be advised you have one complaint against you alleging abuse at this time.

However, if the ride and/or the warm up is horrible, ORG can move immediately and not wait for a third party, which might take six months or a year. If year end results need to be posted immediately, no problem. Out of courtesy, said ORG would present (1) the video or documentation to USDF and USDF (2) the rulebook and indicate the rider was pulled from receiving awards based on items 1 and 2. If the USDF and USEF finds fault with this ORGs actions, please let ORG know. I guarentee you, nothing will happen but perhaps a "thankyou."

[ideayoda]

Unless it is made part of the rules, or given some teeth for the TD to use (card/eliminate), it is imho only a useless tidbit.

[sm]

They have been laying the foundation for this for some time.
This statement is meant to dovetail with their "happy horse" policy, IMO.

The idea that this will be solved by prohibiting it at horse shows is too subjective. How will it be judged? A horse was ridden BTV, too low or with too much lateral flexion and you are eliminated? What about other examples of bad riding, they are OK?

I have seen TDs turn a blind eye to lots of bad things in the warm up out of fear of the legal repercussions. Adding something else to the list won't change anything, especially something that is intangible and requires a judgement call .

Well, now that the FEI laid the ground work with this announcement, there is a path the FEI can take. But, their strength is double speak. They are in essence politicians and maybe could care less outside of pleasing everyone. Do they even have the backbone and the balls to tackle the issue, if that's truly want they want to do? But they could:

- put their announcement in a prominent place on their website and in their rulebook.

- repeal the warm-ups be hind closed doors ruling, make it open to the public. If not enough room for the public, then open to the press so the press & press photographers can spend some quality time with the public's favorite riders. I could be remembering this wrong, but I think it was in the 1980s that warm-ups were closed to public because of some people were seeing abuse and other were saying it is just training. Anyway, at one time is was open to the public.

- to the riders that have their image tradmarked so no photo or video can be released by press with out their approval: they need to sign a waiver that while at that facility, either riding or on foot, they need to waive that. Specators would like photos and or videos of their favorite stars, it is important for the sport of dressage and for the fans, so kindly sign this waiver. If they can't sign they can't ride in that competition.

And, as if by magic, without telling riders how to ride or trainers how to train: there'd be lots of squeaky clean warm-ups. Immediately.

[Kyzteke]

Perhaps that was the intent.

Looks like Anky won the World Cup again. One wonders why other competitors bother to show up anymore....

You know, all the FEI statements about hyperflexion will not help one bit UNTIL THE JUDGING IMPROVES!

The reason people emulate Anky & her ilk is because she is winning...and god knows why...

The first time I saw Anky was in a tape of the Volvo Cup in LA. Didn't know who she was. I hadn't seen "real" dressage since I was a kid and saw the SRS.

Oh -- I did have a tape of "Classical Masters of Dressage," that I had just about worn out.

But did I know Anky was the "big cheese?" Absolutely not.

I hated her riding then and I hate it now -- was absolutely aghast when she won. The whole picture of she & her horse was one that totally lacked harmony, balance & beauty. Her leg was busy, busy, busy every minute and the horse looked unhappy as hell.

BUT SHE WON!!! And she continues to win.

As long as the judges deem that this is the standard of excellence that all dressage riders should aim for, that this is the BEST end result we can hope for, then the ribbon chasers will continue to do what she does so they can win the way she does.

We don't need the end of the Anky era -- we need the end of the "Judges who like Anky" era. We need judges who actually follow the letter of test.

[freestyle2music]

Unless it is made part of the rules, or given some teeth for the TD to use (card/eliminate), it is imho only a useless tidbit.

I like to meet the TD who have the guts (even with the rulebook in his hands) to disqualify 6 out of the 12 topriders.:cool::no:

[slc2]

I don't actually think the top competitors are that bad looking, including anky. Perfect? No. A disaster? No, I don't really think so. I think there's a kind of emotional bb momentum to hating specific top riders.

[Tonja]

Slc2 wrote:
I don't actually think the top competitors are that bad looking, including anky. Perfect? No. A disaster? No, I don't really think so. I think there's a kind of emotional bb momentum to hating specific top riders.
I would imagine that there may be a few who hate certain top competitors but it appears to me that the majority of those who express disappointment with the top performances would simply prefer to see a far more refined degree of balance, relaxation and engagement at the top of the sport.

[Kyzteke]

I don't actually think the top competitors are that bad looking, including anky. Perfect? No. A disaster? No, I don't really think so. I think there's a kind of emotional bb momentum to hating specific top riders.

Again, I must reiterate: I did NOT know who Anky was or that she was considered a "top rider" when I saw the performances at the Volvo Cup. The only rider I had even vaguely heard of was Reiner Klimke, and mainly because I'd heard of his book.

This was totally a "from the gut" reaction of the "picture" she & her horse (Bonfire, as I recall) made vs what I'd seen from the riders of SRS and the "classic" masters.

When I picked my winners, she wasn't even in the Top 5.

Thus began my (continued) dillusionment with current international competitive dressage.

But you can't blame her -- if she had never been "blessed" by the powers who be (judges), she would have stopped that silly rolleur sh*t along time ago and learned how to really ride.

Either that or she would have found another job.